1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god, look at her. 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 2: This is a clip from the very first episode of 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: Dawson's Creek. 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 3: I'm sure you remember it. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: This was the wildly popular television show that ran on 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: the WB in the late nineties. 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 3: US respect and she's somebody's mother. 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: I have it down pretty good authority that mothers have 9 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: excellent sex lives, all right. 10 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: And the two voices you hear are Pacey and Dawson, 11 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: two best friends. They are about to start their sophomore 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: year in high school. They live in a fictional town 13 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: called Cape Side, Massachusetts, and they are working in a 14 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: video store where they rent VHS tapes. And the woman 15 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 2: they are ogling in this clip is about to become 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: their high school English teacher. 17 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 3: What is more, is that fifteen year old Pacey. 18 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: Is going to lose his virginity to her just a 19 00:00:58,400 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: few episodes later. 20 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 3: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie vannacarm. 21 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: This is in Retrospect, where each week we delve into 22 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 2: a cultural moment from. 23 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 4: The past that shaped us and that we just can't 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 4: stop thinking about today. 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 3: We're talking about a teenager's relationship with this much older 26 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 3: teacher on Dawson's Creek. But we're also. 27 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: Talking about sex in the nineties and how we understood it, 28 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: as well as the case that was playing out in 29 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 2: the background of it all, that of Mary Kayla Charna. 30 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: This is Hot for Teacher Part one. 31 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 4: So, Jess, what made you want to talk about this 32 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 4: moment in this week's episode? 33 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 5: So? 34 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about Dawson's because one, all of 35 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: my high school friends were absolutely obsessed with it. We'd 36 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: have these viewing parties every week and my friend's basement, 37 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: her mother was really a posed to us watching it, 38 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: but we persevered. But also because the relationship we're going 39 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: to talk about here, one between student and teacher, is 40 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: one that and I know this is a little bit strange, 41 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: but I totally shipped. 42 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 4: Wait, So for the people in the audience who don't 43 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 4: know what shipped means, Oh. 44 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, shipping. It's a fan term for when you're like 45 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 3: rooting for a couple. 46 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 6: Yeah. 47 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: And basically, we thought this relationship and this couple was 48 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: totally hot. 49 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 6: Yeah. 50 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 4: I very vaguely remember this storyline like this wasn't the 51 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 4: storyline that really stayed with me? Was this something that 52 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 4: you really thought about over the years. 53 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 2: No, And it's actually only been recently that I came 54 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: back to this. 55 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 3: I was thinking back to Dawson's Creek. 56 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: Maybe it was around the twenty fifth anniversary, and I 57 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: was like, wait, wasn't. 58 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 3: There a student teacher relationship in that? 59 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: So I went back and I looked, and then I 60 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: started frantically texting my high school girlfriends to be like, 61 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: by the way, do you remember that? And sophomore year 62 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: when we were like fifteen sixteen years old, we were 63 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: watching this show obsessively where one of the main characters 64 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: is sleeping with his teacher, and is that kind of weird? 65 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 6: Yeah? I mean that's funny. 66 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 4: Thing is I really didn't remember until you told me 67 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 4: that this was like a significant storyline. 68 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 3: And it's funny because you know, my job for a. 69 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: Number of years was covering the Me Too movement and 70 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: so so much about the cultural coverage there was, looking 71 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: back at shows, music, all of these things made in 72 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 2: the past that through a modern day lens are actually 73 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: quite problematic to use a word that I hate, But 74 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 2: somehow I just completely missed Dawson's in that I forgot 75 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: to think about it until recently. 76 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 4: Well, because it's actually weirdly not treated like a very 77 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 4: meaningful moment. I mean, he loses to Virginia to her, 78 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 4: but it's not something that's like reflected on. 79 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: Right, And wasn't that kind of nuts? So I started 80 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: digging back into it. I started rewatching Dawson's Creek and 81 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: really thinking about what that. 82 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 3: Plot line taught us about. 83 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: Concett taught us about what was okay in terms of 84 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: student teacher relationships and kind of like how that all 85 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: plays out now, or not plays out, but plays now 86 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: in our post me too world. 87 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I remember that this is an era 88 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 4: where I started to become aware of this concept of 89 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 4: like attractive, older female teachers having relationships with their students. 90 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 4: There was like the Mary Kay Laturno and then there 91 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 4: was the Case That Became to Die For, which was 92 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 4: that Nicol Kidman movie. 93 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 6: So it seemed very much of. 94 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 4: The cultural moment and very rarely presented as predatory in 95 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 4: terms of the woman. 96 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we're going to get to all of that, 97 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: but I want to just focus a minute on Dawson's 98 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: and why we're talking about that ship, because it was 99 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: a really big deal back then, and like not just 100 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: with me and my high school friends, it was created 101 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: by this guy, Kevin Williamson. He's the one who actually 102 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: grew up near a real life Dawson's Creek. It was 103 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: a place where the high school kids would go to 104 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: make out in his town, somewhere in the southec. 105 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 6: Was a real thing. 106 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 4: We totally you had that note we didn't have. I 107 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 4: went to boarding schools. So we went made out in 108 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 4: the cemetery. It was really cool. 109 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: I love that. 110 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, dark, we were dark. 111 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: So Kevin Williamson had made Scream, he had made I 112 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: Know What You Did Last Summer. 113 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 6: Both the great movies. 114 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: Honestly, yes, So Kevin Williamson was basically this early two 115 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: thousand's teen TV whisperer, and like among the shows that 116 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: he sells that helped define this era is Dawson's Creek, 117 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 2: this coming of age drama about a group. 118 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: Of pretty, waspy high school friends. 119 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 2: It's named for Dawson, who's the main character, and then 120 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: the other characters are of course, his best friend Pacey, 121 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: his maybe love interest Joey, and then the mysterious Jen 122 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: who's moved from the Big City aka New York. 123 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: And Dawson's is huge. 124 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: It quickly becomes the number one show on the WB 125 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: and when it premieres in January nineteen ninety eight, this 126 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: is when I was a sophomore in high school. Six 127 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: point eight million people, including half of all teenagers who 128 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: are watching TV that night, tune in to watch Dawson 129 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: and his pals navigate hormones and friendships in this show. 130 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: And I actually still remember. 131 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: It aired at nine PM, right after Buffy the Vampire's Slayer. 132 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: And I'm not sure that I personally own the soundtrack, 133 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: but like, I know every line too, every song on 134 00:05:58,880 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: that soundtrack. 135 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 6: Remember the theme song. 136 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 4: The theme song is very iconic, but I don't remember 137 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 4: anything else from the soundtrack. 138 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: You don't remember sixpence none the richer that band? 139 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 4: Yes? 140 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: And then the theme. 141 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 2: Song was I Don't Want to Wait by Paula Cole, 142 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: Yes that I remember. And fun fact, producers originally wanted 143 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 2: to have Alanis Morris at the song hand in My Pocket, 144 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 2: which I actually truly love yeah as the theme song, 145 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: but apparently they couldn't get the rights to it, so Dawson's. 146 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 3: If I haven't expressed, this is huge. 147 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: Kids are forming watch parties at their high schools. Local 148 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: newspapers are calling it a cult hit, and importantly it 149 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: actually allows the WB to reach this very popular but 150 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: overlooked at that time and highly coveted audience, which was 151 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: teen girls. 152 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 4: And I feel like this is also coming after the 153 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 4: popularity of Beverly Hills nine O two one oh, so 154 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 4: people are trying to recreate that magic of like a 155 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 4: teen hit show. 156 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, absolutely, And in rewatching it, it's actually hilarious 157 00:06:58,839 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: how heavy. 158 00:06:59,279 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 3: Handed it is. 159 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: Like literally everything is framed around sex. 160 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 4: Like I rewatched the first six episodes in preparing for this, 161 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 4: and I really was shocked by how much sexual innuendo, 162 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 4: isn't it. I don't remember that at all from watching 163 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 4: it the first time. 164 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: And there was so much innuendo, in part because they 165 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: had to get it past the network, so they would 166 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: do things like talking about having long fingers like you're 167 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: supposed to know what that means, and food was described 168 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: as orgasmic. 169 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 4: There's like that weird scene with Katie Holmes, who plays 170 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 4: Joey Dawson's best friend and kind of like a love 171 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 4: interest for both characters, and she's like says it in 172 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 4: this sort of creepy way, It's like it's orgasmic, and 173 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 4: I'm like, what is happening? 174 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: On this show, and then later they're talking about masturbation 175 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: and they're calling it walking the dog. 176 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: How often do you walk your dog? 177 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 5: Huh? 178 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 7: What time of day? 179 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 6: How many times a week? 180 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: And ultimately it's then revealed that Dawson actually walks the 181 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: dog to Katie Kirk's morning news show. 182 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, which is particularly weird because his mom is a 183 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 4: news anchor. 184 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: And our producers used to work for Katie Kirk and 185 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: I used to work for Katie Kirk. Sorry, Katie. 186 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sure that's one of the more disturbing anecdotes. 187 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: To contextualize when this show is coming and why it 188 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: made such a splash, let's just tick through a few 189 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: of the things that were going on at the time 190 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: in nineteen nineties culture. I want you to really smell 191 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: the axe body spray that emanated in the culture during 192 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: this time. 193 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 6: Was it just ax body spray? 194 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 4: Because I also have a significant memory of Drequard and 195 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 4: water that was called du card noir. 196 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 3: And Polo sport I loved. 197 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 6: I think boys just drowned themselves in them. 198 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 2: YEA. Then I'm a sophomore when the show comes out 199 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight, sophomore in high school, sophomore in 200 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 2: high school. It debuts in January of that year, which 201 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: is the same month that Bill Clinton deny having sexual 202 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: relations with quote that woman Monica Lewinsky, which of course 203 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: was not true. He had had sexual relations. This is 204 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: also the era of Wild Things. Do you remember that movie? 205 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: It's this erotic thriller with the threesome that basically everybody 206 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: of our generation for members. 207 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the only thing I know and remember 208 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 4: about that movie is that Nev Campbell and Denise Richard's 209 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 4: kiss in it, So it's like a very hot lesbian kiss. 210 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 6: Yes. 211 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: And the other thing that's happening is this whole question 212 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: around feminism. So Time magazine has just published this cover 213 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: story asking is feminism dead? Along with the poll showing 214 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: that the majority of American women don't identify as feminists. 215 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 6: Every three or. 216 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 5: Four years there's been another round of declarations of well 217 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 5: the death of feminisms, like the one in Time magazine 218 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 5: a few weeks ago is Feminism Dead, all of which 219 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 5: are highly ironic in a moment when internationally the women's 220 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 5: movement keeps growing. 221 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: So, Susie, that's a news clip from a feminist convention 222 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 2: from around that time, where this this was all very 223 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: much top of mind. 224 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 6: That's interesting. 225 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 4: I kind of remember this, which is this idea that 226 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 4: there was like this backlash against using the word like 227 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 4: I don't need to say I'm a feminist. It's like 228 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 4: sort of a version of I don't see color. It's 229 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 4: like no, thanks, yes, acknowledge that you think women should 230 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 4: have equal right. 231 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: Yes, And then when you think about sexual consent, I mean, 232 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: that was not a word that we even knew what 233 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: it meant back then, and so certainly we weren't thinking 234 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 2: about it in the context of Dawson's Creek. 235 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 4: I think I did have some understanding of the concept 236 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 4: of consent, but not in the way we think about 237 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 4: it now, not sort of like a thing that happened 238 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 4: in the moment between two people, but just like a 239 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 4: thing that happened if you were being raped, if you 240 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 4: said no or not right. 241 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: Right, And I mean, for what it's worth, this was 242 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: before there were widespread consent laws as well. 243 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: Then there's Mary kay Laturna. 244 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:48,479 Speaker 6: Oh yeah. 245 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: She was a thirty four year old married mother of 246 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: four who began a relationship with her twelve year old 247 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: student she had taught him in the second grade. 248 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 5: So creepy The relationship that began when the boy was 249 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 5: just twelve years old, resulted in two pregnancies and for Loturno, 250 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 5: a seven year sentence for child rape. 251 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 4: I do really remember this because this was one of 252 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 4: the first really national cases of a teacher, like an attractive, 253 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 4: fairly young teacher having an affair, female teacher having an 254 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 4: affair with an underage student. And I think what I 255 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 4: remember so distinctly is there was this real discussion around 256 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 4: whether or not it even qualified as a sexual assault, 257 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 4: because a guy should just be so grateful, like how 258 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 4: lucky was he, Like his. 259 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 6: Father was probably high fiving him. 260 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 4: Because he was able to like pull this hot teacher. 261 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 4: So I just remember the time being like so confused 262 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 4: by that frame interest because he was such a little boy. 263 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 4: I mean, he was twelve years old. 264 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: And it actually parallels to Dawson's Creek. Dawson's Creek airs. 265 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: In January of nineteen ninety eight, Mary Kay Laturno is 266 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: pregnant with her child lover's baby number two. 267 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 5: It is a story that continues to captivate and perplex 268 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 5: many Americans. 269 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 8: Incredibly, Mary Kay brought the boy to her home to 270 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 8: have sex, the same home she shared with her husband 271 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 8: and four children. 272 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 3: During that time, they wrote love letters to each other. 273 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 6: We obtained one. 274 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 8: Of those letters, and in it she says, I do 275 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 8: know that you'll love me forever. 276 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: And I think that's why this became such a media 277 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: frenzy too, Like it was so salacious in so many ways, 278 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: but the idea that she's pregnant with his baby as well. 279 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there was just like a lot of 280 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 4: chapters to that story. Even if it would have been 281 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 4: a media frenzy to start, it just went on and 282 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 4: on and on. 283 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: And I should also note this is all happening right 284 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 2: outside of Seattle, my hometown. 285 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 6: Oh wow, So it's like in the ethere. 286 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: It's in the ether, So it's happening in the background 287 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 2: at the same time, or watching Dawson's Creek and basically 288 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 2: hooking all of these teens like me and let me 289 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 2: just paint you a little picture nineties Seattle. I'm very 290 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 2: much more of my so called life. 291 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 6: Girl. I do love my so called life. 292 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: I mean very much the Superior Show. But that's not 293 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: how we're talking about. So I was sort of. 294 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: Like whatever on Dawson's it was like these lily white 295 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: kids in fictional cape side mess teresas with their little boats. 296 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 3: They like ride the boats. 297 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 4: It was just a little cheesy, like it had a 298 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 4: cheesy vibe. But I love cheesy things, so that wasn't 299 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 4: really a problem. 300 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: And all of my friends were obsessed with it, so like, 301 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: if I wanted to hang out, I had to watch 302 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: this show. So we used to go to my friend 303 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: Rosie's house. It was on Tuesdays at nine pm. She 304 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: had this big basement. We had a lot of parties there, 305 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: lots of. 306 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 6: Very typical American suburbia. Was there like wood paneling? 307 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: There actually was, but I mean it wasn't suburban. It 308 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 3: was in the city, but there was wood paneling, I think, 309 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: I think. 310 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 2: And at one point the New York Times actually came 311 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: to her house to report on the fact that there 312 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: were these viewing parties going on. It must have been 313 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: a local correspondent, Like why was the New York Times 314 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: at random Seattle viewing? 315 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 6: I feel like a. 316 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 4: Really big deal because I feel like if the New 317 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 4: York Times had showed up in my house at that age, 318 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 4: I would have thought it was like the biggest deal ever. 319 00:13:59,080 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 3: I don't even remember. 320 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: It had to be honest, but let's call up my 321 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: friend Rosie and see what she remembers. 322 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 3: In my recollection. 323 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 7: That is the Seattle Time. I too, honestly, how could 324 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 7: it be the New York Times. 325 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 8: And when we looked it up and realized it was 326 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 8: the New York Times, I was like, they can't have 327 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 8: come to my parents' basement with the stained pink carpet 328 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 8: and actually been there. 329 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 3: This is my longtime pal, Rosie Bancroft. 330 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: We went to middle and high school together in Seattle, 331 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: and she's now a clinical social worker at a public 332 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: middle school, not unlike ours. Okay, so let's start with Rosie. 333 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: What do you remember about Dawson's Creek. 334 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 8: I remember loving Pacey and hating Dawson. 335 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 7: I remember it being sober bose. I mean, that is 336 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 7: the first. 337 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 8: Thing I think of every time, is like, teenagers don't 338 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 8: talk like this, and we all know teenagers don't talk 339 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 8: like this. I think maybe we thought that it was 340 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 8: like painting us in a really good light or something 341 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 8: at the time that we knew all. 342 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 7: These big words and were analyzing all these things. 343 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 5: M hm. 344 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 7: In retrospect, that is not how the world was seeing us. 345 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: So we all watched this together, right. 346 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 9: Oh, yeah, So somehow I got the idea that I 347 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 9: could invite people over to watch this, and for some reason, 348 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 9: my mom agreed, even though we were mostly in no 349 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 9: TV household. 350 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 8: I'm picturing like ten kids maybe came Okay, seven girls probably. 351 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 3: Describe where we were. 352 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 8: We were down in our basement. So you go down 353 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 8: this like cement stairwell. 354 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 7: And maybe my mom came in. Maybe my brother came 355 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 7: in occasionally and like rolled his eyes at us in 356 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 7: a jealous way, and we were kind of all huddled 357 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 7: around this couch and kids sitting on the floor, and 358 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 7: you had to watch it right when. 359 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 8: It was airing. I remember us having commentary and people 360 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 8: be like sh like we're gonna miss some crucial plot point. 361 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: And so that New York Times article about these watch parties, 362 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: it actually quoted your mom. She basically says, like, with 363 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: a major I roll, you know, I wouldn't choose it, 364 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: but they feel strongly about the show, and so I'm 365 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: letting them watch it. 366 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 8: I think she just was of the meant it was 367 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 8: like alcohol. To her, It's like better to do it 368 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 8: here than to do it somewhere else, And that is 369 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 8: what they included in the article, was like this generational 370 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 8: divide about it and how we all were eating up 371 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 8: this insanely unrealistic dribble. 372 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: So when I was thinking back on this show and 373 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: texted our high school friend group text chain and was like, 374 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: by the way, do you remember how in Dawson's Creek 375 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: Pacey actually sleeps with his teacher. 376 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 8: Yeah. My first reaction when you texted that was really 377 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 8: And then I thought, oh, I guess I. 378 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 7: Have some big recollection of that. And so I thought 379 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 7: it might have been like one episode, but it was 380 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 7: like not impactful or something. 381 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 8: It did not register or we thought it was cool 382 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 8: or maybe that's why I liked Paisy Ew. And then 383 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 8: when I went back and looked it up, I was like, 384 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 8: this is a several episodes long, and b she is 385 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 8: thirty six years old. Yeah, not that that is worse 386 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 8: than twenty two, but it was like a big reach 387 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 8: in terms of the storytelling. 388 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: I feel like, so, Susie, I want to just pause 389 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: Rosie for a second because I think you need a 390 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: little context about our high school. Okay, we went to 391 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: a pretty unique school in central Seattle called Garfield. It 392 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 2: has a really interesting history. It was an amazing place 393 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: to go. I had an incredible jazz program, all of 394 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 2: these things, but also, like a lot of undefunded public schools, 395 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: was also kind of a hot mess. 396 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 6: I'm just picturing fame, the Fame High School. 397 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 3: Yes, I love Fame. 398 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: And so for us, that first year that Dawson's Creek 399 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: aired at our school, well, there were multiple student teacher 400 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: relationships that had come to light. 401 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 10: So when I look back at that and I think 402 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 10: about that storyline, and then what is it six months 403 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 10: nine months later, all of these things start happening at 404 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 10: our high school. 405 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 7: First thing we find out about is the principal is 406 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 7: sleeping with a cheerleader. 407 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 8: So that was a male principle, so we could recognize 408 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 8: it a little bit better. And then this other teacher 409 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 8: had this long investigation about sexual abuse of all these 410 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 8: young boys that had been going on for a really 411 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 8: long time, and we recognized that it was a little 412 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 8: bit questionable, but it took us a long time to 413 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 8: decide that it reached the bar of like talking to 414 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 8: another adult about it. 415 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 11: Or to think that it was worth saying anything about. 416 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 11: Because he was a very popular, well liked teacher, and 417 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 11: I don't know that that was like directly related to 418 00:18:59,160 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 11: Doson's Creek. 419 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 8: But the number of things that we were navigating as 420 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 8: fifteen year olds and we had no role models. 421 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 4: Well, what's interesting about this is I feel like everybody 422 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 4: has a high school story in this era, at least. 423 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 4: I went to boarding school, as I've said, and we 424 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 4: had three incidents I can think of off the top 425 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 4: of my head. We had one teacher who was fired 426 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 4: for having sex with a student. I remember one day 427 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 4: he just like disappeared and then we found out that 428 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 4: that's what had happened. There was another story that I 429 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 4: don't think ever came out publicly, that this very cool 430 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 4: girl was having an affair with one of the like 431 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 4: hot younger teachers, because I think one thing that's a 432 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 4: little complicated a boarding school is you're isolated in the 433 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 4: middle of nowhere. You're sixteen seventeen. A lot of the 434 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 4: teachers have just come from college, so they're like twenty two, 435 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 4: twenty three. It's still not good, but it's a little 436 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 4: closer in age than the sort of things we're describing here. 437 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 4: But there was also a very long affair that was 438 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 4: event actually very public between a female teacher and interesting 439 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 4: a female student in my year, and I think that 440 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 4: was also very weirdly handled because there was a lot 441 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 4: of homophobia. Yeah in the ether, but the teacher was 442 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 4: married to a male teacher also on staff. 443 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 6: Oh wow, So it was very scandalous. 444 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 4: But none of these things were scandalous to the point 445 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 4: of being career ending for any of the people involved 446 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 4: or even becoming national stories. Like we just expected that 447 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 4: there were teacher student relationships and that was just a thing. 448 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 4: I think when it started to get national attention is 449 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 4: when it was female teachers and young male students. 450 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: I think that's so true. 451 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: And the writer and creator of the show, Kevin Williamson 452 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: later said in interview, is that this plot was of 453 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: course based on something that happened in his own school. 454 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: I think the other thing that's interesting is that we're 455 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: aware of these things as they're happening, but it wasn't 456 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 2: really until I started looking back that I really connected 457 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 2: all these dots. 458 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 6: Oh definitely, Like, this. 459 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: Is happening in my own high school, it's happening in 460 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 2: this huge national story right outside of Seattle, it's happening 461 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: on this TV show, and yet we're not seeing these 462 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 2: things as interconnected. 463 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 3: So Susie, I want to. 464 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: Get us back to the moment the clip that we 465 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 2: played at the top, the one with the bad saxophone 466 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: sexy music. 467 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 4: You don't want to wait for our lives to be 468 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 4: over before we discuss this. 469 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, look at her. 470 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: So the show launched in nineteen ninety eight. This was 471 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: the premiere episode. This show followed a group of teenagers 472 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 2: in fictional Cape Side, Massachusetts, a seaside town that is 473 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: kind of like Martha's. 474 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 6: Vineyard, very New England feeling, I remember. 475 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 2: So let me just give you a word about the characters. 476 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 2: So there's Dawson, who the show is named after. He 477 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: is a wanna be filmmaker. He is obsessed with Steven 478 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: Silver and he is played by James Vanderby. Then there's 479 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 2: his best friend Joey played by Katie Holmes. She was 480 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: kind of a tomboy, like they were just best friends, 481 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: no sex, whatever, and then suddenly she's beautiful and there's 482 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: all this tension. Then there's Jen played by Michelle Williams, 483 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: who's the new girl from New York City and she's 484 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: sort of like mysterious and like is she not a first? 485 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 6: And also very pretty. 486 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 3: I mean they're all very attractive. 487 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: And then there's Pacey, who's Dawson's best friend and basically 488 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: an extremely confident fifteen year old played by Joshua Jackson 489 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 2: who's about to have an affair with his teacher, Miss Jacobs. 490 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 3: Aka Tomorrow, you're. 491 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 6: New in town because I haven't seen you in here before. Yes, 492 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 6: I am. My name's Tomorrow. What yours, Pacey? 493 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: Nice to meet you. 494 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 6: There you go. It's just the breathiness that gets me 495 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 6: every time. I know. 496 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: Okay, so that clip, let me just describe. Dawson and 497 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: Pacey are working at the local video store and in 498 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,719 Speaker 2: walks this woman, it's kind of hazy. In the background, 499 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: you of course have that saxophone. 500 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 6: Playing about like sexy saxophone music. 501 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 2: She's wearing a white sun dress and she flips her 502 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 2: hair and then says she wants to rent a video, 503 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 2: and she's quote in the mood for romance. 504 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 6: I mean, it seems like she should be in the 505 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 6: mood for a cold shower. 506 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 4: She's very obviously flirting with these children, which. 507 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 3: I mean, yes, that's what it seems like. 508 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 6: I mean, but like, what is happening here? 509 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: Well, okay, and so what happens next is that pace 510 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 2: is like, okay, how about her new release, and she 511 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: replies that no, she's old school, she's vintage all the way, 512 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: another one of those little turns of phrase, and then 513 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: she asks where she can find wait for it, the Graduate. 514 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Graduate, which great film, but also a lot 515 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 4: of innuendo in just that choice exactly. 516 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: Oh and by the way, Pacey in the scene is 517 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: fifteen in case anyone forgot, which means tomorrow the new 518 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: English teacher to school is more than twice. 519 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 3: His age's five or learn that. 520 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: But you know, still, this is definitely presented as like 521 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 2: a meet cute before that Expecsion xviisit. 522 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 3: It's one of the primary openers to this series. 523 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 6: So what happens next? 524 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 3: So basically a couple of days after they're. 525 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 2: At the video store, they go to school and guess what, Tomorrow, 526 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: Miss Jacobs is Pacey's English teacher. You know, she says 527 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 2: to him, like, call me miss Jacobs during school hours. 528 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 6: Like they're going to spend a lot of time in not. 529 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, so you know, Pacey is totally smitten. He 530 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 2: begins flirting with her, pursuing her, and like pretty aggressively. 531 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 4: There's like a sort of pretensive resistance, like a very 532 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 4: mild resistance. 533 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 3: Yes, there's a. 534 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 2: Lot of we can't it's wrong, like this is over 535 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 2: the course of a few episodes, but like him saying, 536 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: sometimes it's right to do the wrong thing, that kind 537 00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: of dialogue. So they quickly share their first kiss, which 538 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 2: we actually see on the show. And I want to 539 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: play this clip because I feel like it captures so much. Basically, 540 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: the setup here is that Pacey has decided to crash 541 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: a date that Tamoraw has gone on with another teacher 542 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: at the school on her age, and this ends in 543 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 2: him kind of sheepishly walking home after being rejected along 544 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: the water as you do in Cape Side where Lo 545 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: and Behold. He then somehow runs into Tomorrow and so 546 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 2: she says, I'm so sorry. He tells her, really pretty dramatically, 547 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: you should be because you're a liar. How can you 548 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 2: say you were just renting. 549 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 4: A movie which she didn't know he existed, Like what 550 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 4: else was she doing? 551 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 2: So Tomorrow says, because it's the truth, and then pace Okay, 552 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: this is what you have to listen to. 553 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: The truth is you're well put together, knock out of 554 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: a woman who's feeling a little insecure about hitting forty. 555 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: So when a young via boy such as myself, flirts 556 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: with you, you enjoy it, you entice it, you fantasize 557 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: about what it would be like to be with that 558 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: young boy on the verge of man, because it helps 559 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: you stay feeling attractive, makes the aging process a little 560 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: more bearable. 561 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 11: Well, let me tell you something. 562 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: You blew it, lady, because I'm the best sex you'll 563 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: never have. 564 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 3: Okay, And so then the next line is key. 565 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: So Tomorrow says back to him, you're wrong about one thing, Pacy, 566 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: you're not a boy. 567 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 6: Okay, that's great because he's like a man. 568 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 3: And then she leans in and kisses him. And so 569 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 3: this is. 570 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 4: Their first I mean, can we just go back for 571 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 4: a moment. The fact that he says, I'm the best 572 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 4: sex you'll never have, right, because like, he's a fifteen 573 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 4: year old boy who's never had sex. 574 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 3: So it's amazing, it's amazing present. 575 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 6: And it's not the best sex she'll never or ever have. 576 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: I mean, awards for writing here, honestly, and it would. 577 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 6: Rather die than have sex with a fifteen year old boy. 578 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: Well good, I mean good, it's on the record. 579 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 6: Great, So then what happens? 580 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 3: Okay, So a few days later. 581 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 2: I mean, actually, I don't know how long it is, 582 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: but within a course of one episode he. 583 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 3: Will lose his virginity too. 584 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 6: Wow. 585 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 2: So we don't actually see them have sex. That probably 586 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: would have been too raunchy for the network, but it's 587 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: very clear that they do. In the last minute of 588 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: episodes three, we see them lying down somewhere outdoors. 589 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 3: They're naked under a blanket. They're like cuddling. I should 590 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: know that. 591 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 2: Throughout different points in the show, they do go to 592 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: lengths to point out that this is illegal. 593 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 6: Oh, like the characters pointed out yes. 594 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: So one point, Tamora even says, quick reminder, this is 595 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 2: a felony. She probably doesn't say, but it's like sort 596 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: of a hint to the viewer. Yeah, that at least 597 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 2: the filmmakers know that this is not something that is okay. 598 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: Now you're for it, Well, that's the thing. So, like, 599 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: none of that really stuck with me. I didn't remember 600 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: that they said any of those things. The fact that 601 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,719 Speaker 2: this was taboo made it kind of hot. I was 602 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: like rooting for. 603 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 6: Them, Yeah, I think everybody was. 604 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 3: And honestly it wasn't just us. 605 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 2: So I look back at all these fan message boards 606 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: from the time, and people were saying things like I 607 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 2: found that relationship to be a model of true love, 608 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: or like if I could have a relationship like theirs, 609 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: I would die happy. 610 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 3: Someone compare them to Romeo and Juliet. So there's this real. 611 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: Sense that this is like a forbidden romance, a forbidden 612 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: love affair, not a relationship between a boy and an adult. 613 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 6: Like a thirty five year old woman. Right yep. 614 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 2: And that's the thing too, it's an adult woman and 615 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: it's an adult seduction. 616 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 5: Now. 617 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: One of the jokes we had growing up was that, 618 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 2: like all of the actors on this show were basically 619 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: in their twenties, like they were old. 620 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 4: Nobody looked I mean, I think in general in that era, 621 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 4: all the teenage characters were played by. 622 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 3: Like twenty dollars. 623 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so like they're talking like twenty something's not like 624 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 2: fifteen year olds, which fine, but this whole thing is 625 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: painted as very adults, like it's sexy. 626 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 3: Pacy's the clear aggressor. You know, this is the best 627 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 3: you'll never have. 628 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,239 Speaker 2: Like, how does he know he's a child, And he 629 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: repeats again and again throughout the show, how he is 630 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: an adult capable of making his own decisions. At one point, 631 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: he says, I may just be fifteen, but I'm well 632 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: beyond the age of accountability. 633 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 6: And like what is he accountable for? 634 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: It's like, well, right, it's like a misunderstanding of accountability. 635 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 3: But also no, you're literally fifteen. Okay. 636 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 2: So to close this arc, so by episode three they 637 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: have sex, and then by episode six they actually get 638 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: found out, so it's discovered that they're having this affair, 639 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: and so that tomorrow doesn't get in trouble. 640 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 3: He Pasey claims that he made up the whole thing. 641 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, he's that's like sort of like a heroic moment 642 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 6: for him. 643 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: And she basically has to leave town at that point, 644 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: So she is moving to Rochester, New York for whatever reason, 645 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: and last words they say to each other are him, 646 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy Rochester, her I hope you enjoy 647 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: high school. 648 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's it's a lot. I mean, also how specific 649 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 4: why Rochester? 650 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 6: Why didn't you move back to New York? 651 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 3: Like, I know, maybe she got another teaching job there. 652 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 4: Well, seems where she'll find another high school boy to 653 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 4: molest I mean, what do we actually call this? I mean, 654 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 4: I think the thing that's hard about this is if 655 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 4: it was a male teacher and a female student, we 656 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 4: would just say it was a sexual assault. 657 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is interesting, and we both started 658 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: keep being like, uhh, let's pause here. We're going to 659 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: continue to dissect this awkward language around Pasey and tamoraw 660 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: in part two, and there's so much more. 661 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: To talk about. 662 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: You know, We're going to dive into Mary kay Lturno 663 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: more that parallel, We're going to talk about Hollywood's obsession 664 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: with the older woman's seductress, and so much more. 665 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 4: That's in Part two, which is already in your feed. 666 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 4: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a 667 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 4: cultural moment you can't stop thinking about and want us 668 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 4: to explore in a future episode. Email us at in 669 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 4: retropod at gmail dot com or find us on Instagram 670 00:30:58,600 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 4: at in retropod. 671 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,719 Speaker 2: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 672 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 673 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 674 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 2: which we may or may not delete. 675 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 4: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 676 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 4: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 677 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 4: Feminist Fight Club and This is eighteen. 678 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. 679 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 680 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 2: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 681 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: associate producer. 682 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 4: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 683 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 4: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 684 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 6: Our artwork is from Pentagram. 685 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 4: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Coscarelli, Sound 686 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 4: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. We are your 687 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 4: hosts Susie Beannacarum. 688 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 2: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. For even more, 689 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 2: check out in retropod dot com. 690 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: See you next week.