WEBVTT - A Meditation Scientist Changes My Mind 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:33.916 The Dali Lama walks in and he immediately took my 0:00:34.036 --> 0:00:37.796 hand and he said, I want you to take the 0:00:37.876 --> 0:00:41.716 practices in my tradition, turn them into a form that 0:00:41.876 --> 0:00:47.036 anyone would feel comfortable practicing, investigate them with the tools 0:00:47.636 --> 0:00:51.236 of modern science, and if you find them to be valuable, 0:00:51.716 --> 0:00:56.276 disseminate them widely. And I consider that to be my 0:00:56.436 --> 0:00:59.676 assignment for the remainder of my time on this planet. 0:01:00.556 --> 0:01:04.996 Doctor Richie Davidson, a professor of psychology and psychiatry, was 0:01:05.036 --> 0:01:08.116 one of the first people to conduct a rigorous scientific 0:01:08.156 --> 0:01:11.836 study on the effect of meditation. He's the author of 0:01:11.876 --> 0:01:15.916 the book Altered Traits, and his research shows that meditation 0:01:16.236 --> 0:01:19.116 is a powerful and accessible tool that we can use 0:01:19.156 --> 0:01:22.276 to improve our lives. It can also help us foster 0:01:22.436 --> 0:01:24.716 more generosity and compassion for others. 0:01:25.836 --> 0:01:29.196 What we're talking about is something that we believe is 0:01:29.316 --> 0:01:32.796 really critical for our personal mental hygiene, and I think 0:01:32.876 --> 0:01:36.636 most people would agree that their minds are even more 0:01:36.676 --> 0:01:40.716 important than their teeth. And the science shows that if 0:01:40.756 --> 0:01:43.596 we spend even as little time as we spend brushing 0:01:43.596 --> 0:01:47.716 our teeth nourishing our mind, this world would be a 0:01:47.756 --> 0:01:48.476 different place. 0:01:51.876 --> 0:01:55.516 On today's show, a pioneer in meditation science makes the 0:01:55.516 --> 0:01:58.436 case for how even short practices like one you can 0:01:58.476 --> 0:02:01.996 do while taking out the trash can have a big impact. 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:10.876 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:11.276 --> 0:02:13.396 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:13.716 --> 0:02:27.716 in the face of a big change. I'll start with 0:02:27.756 --> 0:02:32.676 a confession non meditator here. I've tried countless times to 0:02:32.716 --> 0:02:35.676 integrate meditation into my life and it's just never stuck. 0:02:36.276 --> 0:02:38.596 But talking to Richie was a turning point for me. 0:02:39.596 --> 0:02:43.076 This conversation has something for everyone. It's for the full 0:02:43.076 --> 0:02:46.556 on skeptics of meditation. It's for people like me who 0:02:46.596 --> 0:02:49.356 see the value in meditation but haven't been able to 0:02:49.396 --> 0:02:53.476 adopt a practice. And it's for the meditation pros who 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:56.236 want a deep dive into what the science really says 0:02:56.356 --> 0:03:00.316 about the impact of meditation. While Richie was getting his 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:03.876 psychology PhD in the nineteen seventies, he met a group 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:07.596 of people who met up regularly to practice meditation. You 0:03:07.676 --> 0:03:10.556 might be familiar with some of them, people like Ramdas 0:03:10.596 --> 0:03:14.236 and John cabot Zin, who later became legendary figures in 0:03:14.276 --> 0:03:18.916 Western branches of meditation. Richie enjoyed and marveled at the 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:22.516 practice of meditation, so much so that he actually traveled 0:03:22.556 --> 0:03:25.356 to India and Sri Lanka for a week's long retreat. 0:03:26.196 --> 0:03:28.356 But when he returned to school and wanted to make 0:03:28.396 --> 0:03:32.636 meditation the focus of his research, academia did not welcome 0:03:32.716 --> 0:03:34.156 him with open arms. 0:03:34.796 --> 0:03:38.956 I came back with a fervent aspiration to study this 0:03:39.236 --> 0:03:43.116 and with the conviction that this was important for Western 0:03:43.196 --> 0:03:47.436 psychology and Western science. But it was really difficult in 0:03:47.476 --> 0:03:51.196 those days, and I didn't have a lot of support 0:03:51.316 --> 0:03:53.436 from inside the academy. 0:03:53.876 --> 0:03:57.076 Tell me more about what the resistance was like and 0:03:57.116 --> 0:03:58.636 how you engage with that resistance. 0:03:59.556 --> 0:04:02.756 Yeah, just to give you one sort of comical example, 0:04:03.316 --> 0:04:07.316 I was in a graduate seminar on psychopathology, and I'll 0:04:07.596 --> 0:04:11.276 leave out the name of the professor who was teaching it. 0:04:11.276 --> 0:04:15.236 It was a regular Harvard faculty member with a named chair. 0:04:15.876 --> 0:04:18.436 And I looked like I just came back from India. 0:04:18.716 --> 0:04:22.796 I had long hair at that time. I was wearing 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:28.676 Indian clothes and he was commenting on the signs and 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:32.996 symptoms of psychopathology, and then he was looking at me 0:04:33.276 --> 0:04:37.396 and made some comment about how even one's dress can 0:04:37.476 --> 0:04:42.716 be a sign of psychopathology. And as he was staring 0:04:42.756 --> 0:04:46.036 at me, and you know, this was the kind of 0:04:46.236 --> 0:04:50.356 stuff that I just encountered, And you know, it was 0:04:50.436 --> 0:04:53.276 made more explicit to me that if I wanted a 0:04:53.836 --> 0:04:58.916 successful career in science, studying meditation was not a particularly 0:04:59.556 --> 0:05:04.556 healthy or fruitful way to begin. And I was strongly 0:05:04.676 --> 0:05:08.916 encouraged to find something else to study that would be 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:13.396 more mainstream, and I actually I did do that. That 0:05:13.836 --> 0:05:18.196 really was the segue into me becoming a closet meditator, 0:05:18.316 --> 0:05:22.516 where I kept my meditation practice to myself for the 0:05:22.556 --> 0:05:26.436 most part and did not share it with most of 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:27.876 my professional colleagues. 0:05:29.156 --> 0:05:31.716 So what ended up changing for you, Richie, Like what 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:37.476 increased your resolve to double down and commit to not 0:05:37.556 --> 0:05:41.156 only coming out of the meditation closet, as you just suggested, 0:05:41.156 --> 0:05:44.076 but also conducting research in this space. 0:05:44.956 --> 0:05:48.916 The opportunity that I had in nineteen ninety two to 0:05:48.956 --> 0:05:52.356 meet His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and that meeting was 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:55.676 a pivotal meeting that really changed the course of both 0:05:55.756 --> 0:05:59.796 my professional life and my personal life. He invited me 0:05:59.916 --> 0:06:03.396 to his residence to meet with him because he learned 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:07.636 that I was a serious scientist who also was a meditator, 0:06:08.116 --> 0:06:12.076 and he knew I interested in doing scientific research in 0:06:12.116 --> 0:06:15.476 this area. He was told that's through some mutual friends, 0:06:15.516 --> 0:06:19.916 and he wanted to encourage serious scientific research on the topic, 0:06:20.476 --> 0:06:23.636 so he invited me to meet with him. I came 0:06:23.676 --> 0:06:28.076 with three other scientists and I almost had a panic attack. 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:31.156 And I'm not someone who is prone to anxiety. I've 0:06:31.196 --> 0:06:34.716 never had a panic attack in my life. I was 0:06:35.756 --> 0:06:41.476 completely overwhelmed by anxiety because I could not envision what 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:44.956 my first words would be to the Dalai Lama. I 0:06:45.116 --> 0:06:49.436 just couldn't imagine what these first words would be, and 0:06:49.596 --> 0:06:54.076 I started sweating, my heart was palpitating, and you know, 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:57.676 within three seconds after that, the Dhali Lama walks in 0:06:58.156 --> 0:07:02.916 and he immediately took my hand, and within fifteen seconds, 0:07:03.796 --> 0:07:10.196 all of this anxiety was completely totally dissipated, gone, but 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:15.196 more than gone, I felt like I was in exactly 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:18.556 the place I needed to be, and I felt the safest, 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:22.276 most secure, and most loved that I've ever felt in 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:26.156 my life. You know, it was not hard to figure 0:07:26.196 --> 0:07:30.796 out what to say. It just came very organically. But 0:07:30.916 --> 0:07:34.556 then he challenged me, and he was quite sort of 0:07:34.596 --> 0:07:38.196 adamant about it and said, look, you've been using tools 0:07:38.236 --> 0:07:43.316 of modern neuroscience to study depression and anxiety and stress 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:47.156 and fear. Why can't you use those same tools to 0:07:47.236 --> 0:07:52.596 study kindness and to study compassion. And that was a 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:56.716 really major wake up call for me because I didn't 0:07:56.756 --> 0:07:59.676 have a very good answer for him. And then a 0:07:59.716 --> 0:08:01.916 few years later, when I was with him, he was 0:08:02.036 --> 0:08:05.236 more direct, and this time I was alone with him 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:07.996 in a room. He took me by the arm and 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:11.676 he said, I want you to take the practices in 0:08:11.716 --> 0:08:15.596 my tradition, turn them into a form that anyone would 0:08:15.596 --> 0:08:21.836 feel comfortable practicing, investigate them with the tools of modern science, 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:26.036 and if you find them to be valuable, disseminate them widely. 0:08:26.956 --> 0:08:30.636 And I consider that to be my assignment for the 0:08:30.716 --> 0:08:32.716 remainder of my time on this planet. 0:08:34.356 --> 0:08:36.356 So, Richie, later in the interview, we're going to get 0:08:36.396 --> 0:08:42.796 to the Olympic meditators, the Russian gymnast equivalent meditators, but 0:08:43.196 --> 0:08:45.476 I want to talk just about those of us who 0:08:46.036 --> 0:08:48.556 do meditation more recreationally for a moment, in terms of 0:08:48.556 --> 0:08:51.156 what the research shows. So, what do you think are 0:08:51.196 --> 0:08:55.756 some of the biggest misconceptions people have about what meditation 0:08:56.356 --> 0:08:58.516 can do and what meditation can't do. 0:08:59.196 --> 0:09:02.076 Yeah. So, one of the things that's important to point 0:09:02.076 --> 0:09:05.036 out at the beginning is that not all forms of 0:09:05.116 --> 0:09:08.556 meditation are the same. There are literally hundreds of different 0:09:08.636 --> 0:09:12.316 kinds of menas meditation practices, and only a small fraction 0:09:12.396 --> 0:09:16.676 of them have actually been investigated in the West. You know, 0:09:16.796 --> 0:09:20.236 sometimes I think the lay public thinks that we're a 0:09:20.276 --> 0:09:23.956 lot further along in this research than we actually are. 0:09:24.556 --> 0:09:26.796 We're still pretty much in kindergarten. 0:09:27.236 --> 0:09:27.436 Yeah. 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:31.676 Having said that, it's also important to point out that 0:09:31.796 --> 0:09:36.836 meditation did not arise over the course of history to 0:09:37.316 --> 0:09:43.716 treat illness, be it physical or mental. What meditation is 0:09:43.836 --> 0:09:48.596 good for, I think is in nurturing the core elements 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:53.116 of what it means to flourish. And we've written a 0:09:53.156 --> 0:09:57.476 lot about that, and we have described four key pillars 0:09:57.956 --> 0:10:01.916 of well being or flourishing. There is evidence to suggest 0:10:02.236 --> 0:10:06.756 that meditation can nurture each of these pillars of wellbeing 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:12.996 or flourishing, and then they can have beneficial effects in 0:10:13.036 --> 0:10:14.236 a variety of ways. 0:10:14.676 --> 0:10:16.236 Do you mind talking about those pillars? 0:10:16.596 --> 0:10:20.276 Yeah, So these four pillars of wellbeing are the following. 0:10:20.316 --> 0:10:23.956 The first we call awareness, which is where mindfulness would 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:28.236 be and it includes our capacity to focus our attention. 0:10:28.996 --> 0:10:34.436 It also includes our capacity for what scientists call meta 0:10:34.516 --> 0:10:38.236 awareness and what is met awareness. Met awareness is knowing 0:10:38.236 --> 0:10:42.156 what our minds are doing. Now, to some listeners, that 0:10:42.276 --> 0:10:44.556 may seem a little strange. Don't we always know what 0:10:44.596 --> 0:10:48.116 our minds are doing. But one of the examples that 0:10:48.196 --> 0:10:51.276 I often give is reading a book where you might 0:10:51.316 --> 0:10:53.756 be reading each word on a page, and you might 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:56.716 be reading one page, you might be reading two pages, 0:10:56.956 --> 0:10:59.116 and after a few minutes you realize you have no 0:10:59.356 --> 0:11:02.876 idea what you've just read. Your mind is lost somewhere else. 0:11:03.036 --> 0:11:06.356 But the moment you recognize that is a moment of 0:11:06.396 --> 0:11:09.876 meta awareness. It's a moment of awakening. And it turns 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:14.116 out that metawareness is super important. We think it's actually 0:11:14.156 --> 0:11:19.556 a necessary ingredient for all other forms of human flourishing 0:11:19.636 --> 0:11:25.556 and transformation, and we know that simple practices to cultivate 0:11:25.596 --> 0:11:29.356 awareness can help to nurture this quality of meta awareness. 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:33.196 Do you have a recommendation about the kind of practices 0:11:33.236 --> 0:11:36.316 that have been shown to have a positive impact on focus. 0:11:36.796 --> 0:11:41.956 Yes, These include the most frequently taught forms of meditation 0:11:42.756 --> 0:11:46.716 in the West, and they would be all the forms 0:11:46.756 --> 0:11:50.076 of meditation we would include in mindfulness meditation. And so 0:11:50.716 --> 0:11:55.836 we often would take an object as our focus, and 0:11:55.956 --> 0:11:59.716 it might be our breath, it could be an external object, 0:11:59.716 --> 0:12:04.196 it could be sound, and we become aware of that object. 0:12:04.196 --> 0:12:08.556 We know that we're attending to that object. And then 0:12:08.636 --> 0:12:12.876 when our mind find wanders, which it inevitably, will you 0:12:12.996 --> 0:12:16.196 simply gently bring it back to that focus. And that's 0:12:16.316 --> 0:12:20.876 what the training is. It's strengthening this muscle of meta awareness. 0:12:21.076 --> 0:12:25.156 And you do that again and again and again and 0:12:25.196 --> 0:12:26.076 again and again. 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:30.756 Do you mind sharing the second pillar of well being 0:12:30.836 --> 0:12:31.436 and flourishing? 0:12:31.836 --> 0:12:36.116 Sure? The second pillar is connection, and connection here is 0:12:36.356 --> 0:12:42.396 about the qualities which are important for healthy social relationships. 0:12:42.956 --> 0:12:49.676 Qualities like appreciation and gratitude, kindness, compassion, all would be 0:12:49.756 --> 0:12:54.916 included in connection. And also we like to have a 0:12:55.116 --> 0:12:59.996 very broad view of connection to not only other social beings, 0:13:00.276 --> 0:13:05.636 but also to our environment, to our land, to nature, 0:13:06.116 --> 0:13:10.396 to our planet, which we think actual can help to 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:15.076 promote more intelligent ecological decision making. 0:13:15.996 --> 0:13:19.796 There's one kind of meditation practice that focuses exclusively on 0:13:19.876 --> 0:13:23.876 the second pillar, which is cultivating compassion. And I was 0:13:23.916 --> 0:13:26.156 wondering if you could tell me a bit more about 0:13:26.156 --> 0:13:29.956 this one study in particular, where they compared the effectiveness 0:13:29.956 --> 0:13:34.836 of compassion and cognitive behavioral therapy or cognitive therapy on 0:13:35.476 --> 0:13:36.956 people's altruism. 0:13:37.796 --> 0:13:41.156 Sure happy to do that. This was actually a study 0:13:41.196 --> 0:13:46.356 from our own lab, and participants were recruited for a 0:13:46.436 --> 0:13:50.276 study where they were told that they would learn a 0:13:50.316 --> 0:13:53.676 strategy to promote their well being, and then they were 0:13:54.076 --> 0:13:58.396 randomly assigned to one of two groups. One group was 0:13:58.516 --> 0:14:01.996 a compassion meditation group and a second group was a 0:14:02.036 --> 0:14:07.356 group that received training in cognitive behavioral therapy. The compassion 0:14:07.436 --> 0:14:13.756 meditation group, they were given classical instructions for a simple 0:14:13.876 --> 0:14:17.836 form of compassion meditation that began with a loved one, 0:14:18.396 --> 0:14:21.116 where they were asked to bring into their mind a 0:14:21.156 --> 0:14:25.276 person who they're close to. It could be a family member, 0:14:25.876 --> 0:14:29.436 it could be a very close friend or colleague, and 0:14:30.676 --> 0:14:34.156 think back and imagine a time in their life when 0:14:34.196 --> 0:14:38.196 they may have had some difficulty and as you are 0:14:38.756 --> 0:14:41.876 bringing them into your mind in your heart, cultivate the 0:14:41.956 --> 0:14:46.876 strong aspiration that they'd be relieved of suffering. And they 0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:52.596 were taught a simple phrase to use, May you be happy, 0:14:53.036 --> 0:14:56.596 May you be free of suffering, And then simply repeat 0:14:56.676 --> 0:15:01.396 that phrase a few times in your mind, and then rest. 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:05.516 And after the first category, which is a loved one, 0:15:05.956 --> 0:15:10.476 a person moves on to themselves. Often that's very challenging 0:15:10.636 --> 0:15:15.716 for people in our country in particular. The third category 0:15:15.916 --> 0:15:20.116 we call a stranger, and it's a very particular definition 0:15:20.156 --> 0:15:23.116 of a stranger. What we mean is a person whose 0:15:23.156 --> 0:15:26.796 face you recognize, but you may not know them very well. 0:15:27.196 --> 0:15:29.956 It could be someone who works in the same office building. 0:15:30.276 --> 0:15:32.796 It could be someone who's in a class that you're in, 0:15:32.836 --> 0:15:35.396 but you really don't know anything about their lives. So 0:15:35.556 --> 0:15:40.396 imagine that they were experiencing some difficulty, some adversity, and 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:43.916 then go through this same process. And then finally, the 0:15:43.996 --> 0:15:47.956 last category is perhaps the most important one, which is 0:15:48.596 --> 0:15:52.556 bring into your mind and heart a difficult person, someone 0:15:52.636 --> 0:15:56.316 who pushes your buttons, and go through the same process 0:15:56.396 --> 0:15:59.676 with them. And they did it for thirty minutes a 0:15:59.756 --> 0:16:05.596 day for two weeks. And the group that got cognitive 0:16:05.636 --> 0:16:09.436 therapy received the same amount of training from a very 0:16:09.516 --> 0:16:13.796 experienced cognitive therapist. And in this study we found that 0:16:13.956 --> 0:16:18.476 indeed the individuals who are randomly assigned to the compassion 0:16:18.516 --> 0:16:22.756 group behaved in a more altruistic way and they show 0:16:22.916 --> 0:16:28.116 changes in their brain which the cognitive therapy people didn't show, 0:16:28.516 --> 0:16:32.676 and these changes in their brain predicted the extent to 0:16:32.716 --> 0:16:36.556 which they behaved altruistically on the decision making task. 0:16:37.476 --> 0:16:41.476 Wow, I'd love to dig in now to the third pillar. 0:16:42.196 --> 0:16:46.796 Yes, So the third pillar we call insight, and insight 0:16:47.156 --> 0:16:53.636 is insight into the nature of the self and the 0:16:53.756 --> 0:16:57.476 nature of the narrative that we all tell about ourselves. 0:16:57.476 --> 0:17:01.116 So all of us have this narrative, this story that 0:17:01.276 --> 0:17:05.276 is who we are, and it's quite normal if you 0:17:05.316 --> 0:17:08.276 will to have this narrative. Everybody has a narrative. This 0:17:08.396 --> 0:17:14.356 is what minds do. What insight is having a deep 0:17:14.516 --> 0:17:20.276 experiential understanding of how this narrative shapes our experience of 0:17:20.316 --> 0:17:24.596 the world. And when we can have that experiential insight, 0:17:25.036 --> 0:17:29.876 it can help to free us from the blinders that 0:17:29.996 --> 0:17:34.796 are imposed by this narrative. All of us have blinders. 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:38.676 The question is, only some of us are aware that 0:17:38.716 --> 0:17:42.076 we actually have blinders. And if you can be aware 0:17:42.116 --> 0:17:47.036 of your blinders, you have some possibility of going beyond them. 0:17:47.556 --> 0:17:51.436 And so insight is really that. And we also know 0:17:51.876 --> 0:17:54.636 that there are people who are at one end of 0:17:54.876 --> 0:17:59.156 a distribution who have a very negative narrative about themselves, 0:17:59.516 --> 0:18:02.556 They have negative self beliefs, they have low self esteem, 0:18:03.436 --> 0:18:07.596 and of course that's a prescription for depression. And the 0:18:07.996 --> 0:18:13.996 science shows that what is really essential for flourishing is 0:18:14.036 --> 0:18:17.756 not so much changing the narrative, but it's changing our 0:18:17.796 --> 0:18:21.756 relationship to the narrative so that we can see the 0:18:21.836 --> 0:18:25.276 narrative for what it is, which is really simply a 0:18:25.356 --> 0:18:26.876 bunch of thoughts. 0:18:28.996 --> 0:18:31.596 And is there a particular kind of practice that, again 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:35.196 you would guide people towards if they're looking for greater insight? 0:18:35.796 --> 0:18:40.796 Yeah, now here is a case where the practices from 0:18:40.996 --> 0:18:44.156 the ancient traditions which are designed to help with this 0:18:44.716 --> 0:18:48.836 are ones that have essentially not been studied at all 0:18:49.276 --> 0:18:49.916 in the West. 0:18:50.036 --> 0:18:50.196 Oh. 0:18:50.276 --> 0:18:55.396 Interesting, And this practice, the primary practice is called analytic meditation, 0:18:56.076 --> 0:19:02.636 where you actually reflect, using your thoughts about who this 0:19:03.316 --> 0:19:08.476 self is, where is the self? What form is the self? 0:19:08.836 --> 0:19:12.676 Can we feel the self? Where does the self end 0:19:13.076 --> 0:19:17.116 and another self begin? We can ask ourselves all of 0:19:17.156 --> 0:19:21.756 these questions. And when we ask ourselves these questions and 0:19:21.836 --> 0:19:25.516 then observe what the answer is, what we come up 0:19:25.556 --> 0:19:32.276 with is that it is not the unitary, fixed entity 0:19:32.876 --> 0:19:35.556 that we might have imagined in the first place. It's 0:19:35.596 --> 0:19:40.636 a lot more variable, it's a lot more porous than 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:41.916 what it's cracked up to be. 0:19:43.076 --> 0:19:45.756 Yeah, that's so resonant with the theme of the show, 0:19:45.836 --> 0:19:48.956 which is in large part about self identity and how 0:19:49.316 --> 0:19:52.356 we also see our identities as more malleable than we 0:19:52.436 --> 0:19:55.836 might otherwise. Okay, so now, Richie, let's finish up these 0:19:55.876 --> 0:19:57.916 pillars and talk about the fourth pillar. 0:19:58.236 --> 0:20:02.836 Yes, the fourth pillar is purpose, and purpose is about 0:20:03.156 --> 0:20:08.716 staying motivated. It's about identifying our true north in life, 0:20:09.116 --> 0:20:12.156 and it is not so much about finding something more 0:20:12.196 --> 0:20:15.436 purposeful to do with our lives, but rather, how can 0:20:15.476 --> 0:20:19.956 we derive meaning and purpose from that which we are 0:20:20.156 --> 0:20:25.316 already doing, including the pedestrian activities of our daily life. 0:20:25.516 --> 0:20:28.836 Can taking out the garbage be directly connected to your 0:20:28.876 --> 0:20:32.156 sense of purpose? And of course it can be. It 0:20:32.276 --> 0:20:35.836 simply requires a little bit of reframing, and so there 0:20:35.916 --> 0:20:40.076 are specific meditation practices that we can do to help 0:20:40.556 --> 0:20:45.276 more deeply connect our sense of purpose and our four 0:20:45.436 --> 0:20:48.436 values to more and more of what we do. 0:20:49.196 --> 0:20:51.876 Tell me more about this relationship with taking out the trash. 0:20:52.076 --> 0:20:56.316 I'm curious, so what would be an example of reframing 0:20:56.756 --> 0:20:59.116 this very annoying task that I have to do in 0:20:59.156 --> 0:21:01.876 a way that feels more purposeful. What could that look 0:21:01.916 --> 0:21:02.876 like in theory. 0:21:03.116 --> 0:21:06.116 Well, it could look, for example, like I am taking 0:21:06.116 --> 0:21:09.436 out this trash, which will help the people I live with. 0:21:10.196 --> 0:21:13.316 It will help the community stay clean, it will help 0:21:13.396 --> 0:21:18.156 keep the environment. You know, the possibilities are endless. Yeah, 0:21:18.196 --> 0:21:20.756 and you know, just reflecting on that, this is what 0:21:20.796 --> 0:21:25.556 we call a micro intervention or the microdosing of well being. 0:21:26.356 --> 0:21:30.996 You can spend literally thirty seconds reflecting on that just 0:21:31.076 --> 0:21:33.476 before you do it or as you're doing it, and 0:21:33.516 --> 0:21:36.516 it can completely change how you do it. 0:21:36.876 --> 0:21:38.596 Yeah, and my husband's going to write you a thank 0:21:38.636 --> 0:21:42.116 you note after this interview, Richie being like, man, I 0:21:42.156 --> 0:21:44.036 don't know what you guys talked about. All I know 0:21:44.476 --> 0:21:47.436 is that after her interview on meditation, she's been taking 0:21:47.436 --> 0:21:54.396 out the trash a lot. We'll be back in a 0:21:54.436 --> 0:22:08.156 moment with a slight change of plans. Doctor Richie Davidson 0:22:08.316 --> 0:22:10.556 is well known for study he did with what he 0:22:10.636 --> 0:22:15.556 calls Olympic meditators, people who've meditated for well over thirty 0:22:15.596 --> 0:22:19.556 four thousand hours each. While most of us will never 0:22:19.636 --> 0:22:23.116 achieve a feat like this, his study represented a major 0:22:23.156 --> 0:22:27.396 step forward in meditation science. It showed that meditation can 0:22:27.476 --> 0:22:29.636 change the brain in profound ways. 0:22:30.036 --> 0:22:33.516 The study of these very long term meditators was one 0:22:33.556 --> 0:22:37.796 of the first things that we did when we began 0:22:37.916 --> 0:22:42.676 to fulfill the Dalai Lama's wish to study these practices 0:22:42.836 --> 0:22:46.556 really seriously in the laboratory, because we reasoned that if 0:22:46.556 --> 0:22:51.356 we didn't see big differences in people who've meditated for 0:22:51.596 --> 0:22:55.676 tens of thousands of hours, the likelihood of seeing differences 0:22:55.676 --> 0:22:58.716 in the brain of more novice meditators was not going 0:22:58.796 --> 0:23:01.356 to be there. One of the first studies that we 0:23:01.396 --> 0:23:05.996 did is a study of pain. Pain is a very 0:23:06.116 --> 0:23:11.396 well studied phenomenon in neuroscience, and so we know a 0:23:11.436 --> 0:23:15.396 lot about which areas of the brain contribute to our 0:23:15.516 --> 0:23:20.436 experience of pain, and we can search for these specific 0:23:20.516 --> 0:23:24.596 areas very precisely. One of the ways that we can 0:23:25.036 --> 0:23:29.196 interrogate pain in the laboratory is with a painful stimulus 0:23:29.196 --> 0:23:31.996 that is very realistic. And what do we use That 0:23:32.036 --> 0:23:36.396 we use heat. Every one of us has experienced the 0:23:36.516 --> 0:23:40.796 pain of touching a hot stove, and this is a 0:23:41.316 --> 0:23:46.836 very robust response that virtually every human being has, and 0:23:46.916 --> 0:23:50.556 so we do it with a device that has a 0:23:50.596 --> 0:23:56.836 metal plate through which very rapidly circulating water is going, 0:23:57.276 --> 0:24:00.596 and we can vary the temperature of the water very precisely, 0:24:01.116 --> 0:24:04.316 and in this way we can create a burning sensation 0:24:04.516 --> 0:24:09.436 without causing harm. So we brought people into the laboratory 0:24:09.836 --> 0:24:12.516 and we gave them an experience of this pain, so 0:24:12.596 --> 0:24:15.996 everybody had the same common experience, and then we brought 0:24:15.996 --> 0:24:17.556 them into the scanner. 0:24:17.676 --> 0:24:20.196 Into the MRI skin the brain scanner, and. 0:24:20.276 --> 0:24:24.156 We said that in this experiment, you're going to get 0:24:24.196 --> 0:24:27.076 a tone, just a beep, and when the tone is 0:24:27.156 --> 0:24:30.676 a certain pitch, it means that ten seconds later you're 0:24:30.716 --> 0:24:34.036 going to get zapped with this pain that you just experienced. 0:24:35.076 --> 0:24:39.036 And it's strapped onto the wrist, which is a very 0:24:39.436 --> 0:24:42.876 sensitive part of the body, and we present the painful 0:24:42.916 --> 0:24:47.676 stimulus for ten seconds. And I've had this done to 0:24:47.756 --> 0:24:51.556 myself many times, and my experience is that the first 0:24:51.836 --> 0:24:54.996 two or three seconds is really intense, but you can 0:24:55.076 --> 0:24:58.876 bear it, and then after like the fourth second, it's 0:24:58.956 --> 0:25:02.516 so intense you have no idea how you're going to 0:25:02.556 --> 0:25:07.156 survive this entire period. So that's what we did in 0:25:07.196 --> 0:25:10.876 this experiment, and we brought novices in who are just 0:25:10.996 --> 0:25:14.396 learning to meditate. And we brought these Olympic athletes of 0:25:14.476 --> 0:25:17.916 meditation in and I should say that these Olympic athletes 0:25:18.356 --> 0:25:21.836 they all live in Asia. We flew them from India, Nepal, 0:25:22.076 --> 0:25:27.636 and Bhutan to Madison, Wisconsin, where they spent a few 0:25:27.756 --> 0:25:32.036 days being tested. So we brought the people into the lab, 0:25:32.116 --> 0:25:37.476 we give them the tone, and among non meditators, their 0:25:37.516 --> 0:25:42.116 brains begin to activate immediately before the pain comes on. 0:25:42.556 --> 0:25:46.836 All that has happened is they hear this babe, which 0:25:46.916 --> 0:25:49.556 indicates that in ten seconds they're going to get zapped, 0:25:49.876 --> 0:25:52.356 and the areas of the brain, which we call the 0:25:52.436 --> 0:25:57.396 pain matrix which respond to pain, become activated just to 0:25:57.436 --> 0:26:01.476 the sound, so it's as if the pain has started already. 0:26:01.796 --> 0:26:05.836 Then when the actual painful stimulus comes on, they continue 0:26:05.876 --> 0:26:09.556 to show our response. And then when it goes on off, 0:26:10.276 --> 0:26:14.396 they continue to show a response and have a very 0:26:14.436 --> 0:26:15.476 slow drop off. 0:26:16.236 --> 0:26:18.996 So there's a sticky quality to the pain. It sticks around, 0:26:19.196 --> 0:26:20.116 it sticks around. 0:26:20.236 --> 0:26:24.596 It's both during this anticipation period and also during the 0:26:24.676 --> 0:26:30.116 recovery period. Among the expert meditators, they come in, we 0:26:30.236 --> 0:26:35.636 present the tone, and there literally is no significant activation 0:26:35.796 --> 0:26:39.836 whatsoever in any area of the pain matrix. The only 0:26:39.916 --> 0:26:45.876 activation we see is activation in their auditory cortex registering 0:26:45.916 --> 0:26:51.676 the sound the beep. That's it. Their brains are completely 0:26:51.796 --> 0:26:56.356 calm except for that. Then when the painful stimulus comes on, 0:26:56.876 --> 0:27:00.236 they show a big response and in fact in the 0:27:00.276 --> 0:27:07.076 sensory regions of the brain which are basically reflecting the 0:27:07.116 --> 0:27:12.556 sensory quality of the pain. Often people reported as prickly 0:27:12.756 --> 0:27:17.436 sensations that they feel during the pain, the tingling that 0:27:17.476 --> 0:27:21.596 area the brain. Among the meditators actually showed an even 0:27:21.796 --> 0:27:25.836 greater response than the controls. But then when the pain 0:27:25.916 --> 0:27:29.396 went off after the ten seconds, it came right back 0:27:29.436 --> 0:27:37.036 down to baseline immediately. That is the neural signature of resilience. Wow, 0:27:37.316 --> 0:27:44.036 the capacity to rapidly come back to baseline after adversity 0:27:44.396 --> 0:27:50.356 and showing essentially no anticipatory anxiety. Yeah. 0:27:50.676 --> 0:27:54.036 Yeah, so this, I mean, this is just absolutely remarkable 0:27:55.116 --> 0:28:00.476