1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 2: The Dali Lama walks in and he immediately took my 3 00:00:34,036 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 2: hand and he said, I want you to take the 4 00:00:37,876 --> 00:00:41,716 Speaker 2: practices in my tradition, turn them into a form that 5 00:00:41,876 --> 00:00:47,036 Speaker 2: anyone would feel comfortable practicing, investigate them with the tools 6 00:00:47,636 --> 00:00:51,236 Speaker 2: of modern science, and if you find them to be valuable, 7 00:00:51,716 --> 00:00:56,276 Speaker 2: disseminate them widely. And I consider that to be my 8 00:00:56,436 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 2: assignment for the remainder of my time on this planet. 9 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:04,996 Speaker 1: Doctor Richie Davidson, a professor of psychology and psychiatry, was 10 00:01:05,036 --> 00:01:08,116 Speaker 1: one of the first people to conduct a rigorous scientific 11 00:01:08,156 --> 00:01:11,836 Speaker 1: study on the effect of meditation. He's the author of 12 00:01:11,876 --> 00:01:15,916 Speaker 1: the book Altered Traits, and his research shows that meditation 13 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,116 Speaker 1: is a powerful and accessible tool that we can use 14 00:01:19,156 --> 00:01:22,276 Speaker 1: to improve our lives. It can also help us foster 15 00:01:22,436 --> 00:01:24,716 Speaker 1: more generosity and compassion for others. 16 00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 2: What we're talking about is something that we believe is 17 00:01:29,316 --> 00:01:32,796 Speaker 2: really critical for our personal mental hygiene, and I think 18 00:01:32,876 --> 00:01:36,636 Speaker 2: most people would agree that their minds are even more 19 00:01:36,676 --> 00:01:40,716 Speaker 2: important than their teeth. And the science shows that if 20 00:01:40,756 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 2: we spend even as little time as we spend brushing 21 00:01:43,596 --> 00:01:47,716 Speaker 2: our teeth nourishing our mind, this world would be a 22 00:01:47,756 --> 00:01:48,476 Speaker 2: different place. 23 00:01:51,876 --> 00:01:55,516 Speaker 1: On today's show, a pioneer in meditation science makes the 24 00:01:55,516 --> 00:01:58,436 Speaker 1: case for how even short practices like one you can 25 00:01:58,476 --> 00:02:01,996 Speaker 1: do while taking out the trash can have a big impact. 26 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 27 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:13,396 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 28 00:02:13,716 --> 00:02:27,716 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. I'll start with 29 00:02:27,756 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 1: a confession non meditator here. I've tried countless times to 30 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:35,676 Speaker 1: integrate meditation into my life and it's just never stuck. 31 00:02:36,276 --> 00:02:38,596 Speaker 1: But talking to Richie was a turning point for me. 32 00:02:39,596 --> 00:02:43,076 Speaker 1: This conversation has something for everyone. It's for the full 33 00:02:43,076 --> 00:02:46,556 Speaker 1: on skeptics of meditation. It's for people like me who 34 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:49,356 Speaker 1: see the value in meditation but haven't been able to 35 00:02:49,396 --> 00:02:53,476 Speaker 1: adopt a practice. And it's for the meditation pros who 36 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:56,236 Speaker 1: want a deep dive into what the science really says 37 00:02:56,356 --> 00:03:00,316 Speaker 1: about the impact of meditation. While Richie was getting his 38 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:03,876 Speaker 1: psychology PhD in the nineteen seventies, he met a group 39 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 1: of people who met up regularly to practice meditation. You 40 00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:10,556 Speaker 1: might be familiar with some of them, people like Ramdas 41 00:03:10,596 --> 00:03:14,236 Speaker 1: and John cabot Zin, who later became legendary figures in 42 00:03:14,276 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 1: Western branches of meditation. Richie enjoyed and marveled at the 43 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:22,516 Speaker 1: practice of meditation, so much so that he actually traveled 44 00:03:22,556 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 1: to India and Sri Lanka for a week's long retreat. 45 00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 1: But when he returned to school and wanted to make 46 00:03:28,396 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 1: meditation the focus of his research, academia did not welcome 47 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: him with open arms. 48 00:03:34,796 --> 00:03:38,956 Speaker 2: I came back with a fervent aspiration to study this 49 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:43,116 Speaker 2: and with the conviction that this was important for Western 50 00:03:43,196 --> 00:03:47,436 Speaker 2: psychology and Western science. But it was really difficult in 51 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:51,196 Speaker 2: those days, and I didn't have a lot of support 52 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 2: from inside the academy. 53 00:03:53,876 --> 00:03:57,076 Speaker 1: Tell me more about what the resistance was like and 54 00:03:57,116 --> 00:03:58,636 Speaker 1: how you engage with that resistance. 55 00:03:59,556 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, just to give you one sort of comical example, 56 00:04:03,316 --> 00:04:07,316 Speaker 2: I was in a graduate seminar on psychopathology, and I'll 57 00:04:07,596 --> 00:04:11,276 Speaker 2: leave out the name of the professor who was teaching it. 58 00:04:11,276 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 2: It was a regular Harvard faculty member with a named chair. 59 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:18,436 Speaker 2: And I looked like I just came back from India. 60 00:04:18,716 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 2: I had long hair at that time. I was wearing 61 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:28,676 Speaker 2: Indian clothes and he was commenting on the signs and 62 00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:32,996 Speaker 2: symptoms of psychopathology, and then he was looking at me 63 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:37,396 Speaker 2: and made some comment about how even one's dress can 64 00:04:37,476 --> 00:04:42,716 Speaker 2: be a sign of psychopathology. And as he was staring 65 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:46,036 Speaker 2: at me, and you know, this was the kind of 66 00:04:46,236 --> 00:04:50,356 Speaker 2: stuff that I just encountered, And you know, it was 67 00:04:50,436 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 2: made more explicit to me that if I wanted a 68 00:04:53,836 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 2: successful career in science, studying meditation was not a particularly 69 00:04:59,556 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 2: healthy or fruitful way to begin. And I was strongly 70 00:05:04,676 --> 00:05:08,916 Speaker 2: encouraged to find something else to study that would be 71 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:13,396 Speaker 2: more mainstream, and I actually I did do that. That 72 00:05:13,836 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 2: really was the segue into me becoming a closet meditator, 73 00:05:18,316 --> 00:05:22,516 Speaker 2: where I kept my meditation practice to myself for the 74 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:26,436 Speaker 2: most part and did not share it with most of 75 00:05:26,476 --> 00:05:27,876 Speaker 2: my professional colleagues. 76 00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 1: So what ended up changing for you, Richie, Like what 77 00:05:31,836 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 1: increased your resolve to double down and commit to not 78 00:05:37,556 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 1: only coming out of the meditation closet, as you just suggested, 79 00:05:41,156 --> 00:05:44,076 Speaker 1: but also conducting research in this space. 80 00:05:44,956 --> 00:05:48,916 Speaker 2: The opportunity that I had in nineteen ninety two to 81 00:05:48,956 --> 00:05:52,356 Speaker 2: meet His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and that meeting was 82 00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:55,676 Speaker 2: a pivotal meeting that really changed the course of both 83 00:05:55,756 --> 00:05:59,796 Speaker 2: my professional life and my personal life. He invited me 84 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:03,396 Speaker 2: to his residence to meet with him because he learned 85 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:07,636 Speaker 2: that I was a serious scientist who also was a meditator, 86 00:06:08,116 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 2: and he knew I interested in doing scientific research in 87 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:15,476 Speaker 2: this area. He was told that's through some mutual friends, 88 00:06:15,516 --> 00:06:19,916 Speaker 2: and he wanted to encourage serious scientific research on the topic, 89 00:06:20,476 --> 00:06:23,636 Speaker 2: so he invited me to meet with him. I came 90 00:06:23,676 --> 00:06:28,076 Speaker 2: with three other scientists and I almost had a panic attack. 91 00:06:28,196 --> 00:06:31,156 Speaker 2: And I'm not someone who is prone to anxiety. I've 92 00:06:31,196 --> 00:06:34,716 Speaker 2: never had a panic attack in my life. I was 93 00:06:35,756 --> 00:06:41,476 Speaker 2: completely overwhelmed by anxiety because I could not envision what 94 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:44,956 Speaker 2: my first words would be to the Dalai Lama. I 95 00:06:45,116 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 2: just couldn't imagine what these first words would be, and 96 00:06:49,596 --> 00:06:54,076 Speaker 2: I started sweating, my heart was palpitating, and you know, 97 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:57,676 Speaker 2: within three seconds after that, the Dhali Lama walks in 98 00:06:58,156 --> 00:07:02,916 Speaker 2: and he immediately took my hand, and within fifteen seconds, 99 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 2: all of this anxiety was completely totally dissipated, gone, but 100 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:15,196 Speaker 2: more than gone, I felt like I was in exactly 101 00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:18,556 Speaker 2: the place I needed to be, and I felt the safest, 102 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:22,276 Speaker 2: most secure, and most loved that I've ever felt in 103 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 2: my life. You know, it was not hard to figure 104 00:07:26,196 --> 00:07:30,796 Speaker 2: out what to say. It just came very organically. But 105 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:34,556 Speaker 2: then he challenged me, and he was quite sort of 106 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 2: adamant about it and said, look, you've been using tools 107 00:07:38,236 --> 00:07:43,316 Speaker 2: of modern neuroscience to study depression and anxiety and stress 108 00:07:43,716 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 2: and fear. Why can't you use those same tools to 109 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:52,596 Speaker 2: study kindness and to study compassion. And that was a 110 00:07:52,796 --> 00:07:56,716 Speaker 2: really major wake up call for me because I didn't 111 00:07:56,756 --> 00:07:59,676 Speaker 2: have a very good answer for him. And then a 112 00:07:59,716 --> 00:08:01,916 Speaker 2: few years later, when I was with him, he was 113 00:08:02,036 --> 00:08:05,236 Speaker 2: more direct, and this time I was alone with him 114 00:08:05,236 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 2: in a room. He took me by the arm and 115 00:08:08,036 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 2: he said, I want you to take the practices in 116 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 2: my tradition, turn them into a form that anyone would 117 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:21,836 Speaker 2: feel comfortable practicing, investigate them with the tools of modern science, 118 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:26,036 Speaker 2: and if you find them to be valuable, disseminate them widely. 119 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:30,636 Speaker 2: And I consider that to be my assignment for the 120 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:32,716 Speaker 2: remainder of my time on this planet. 121 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 1: So, Richie, later in the interview, we're going to get 122 00:08:36,396 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 1: to the Olympic meditators, the Russian gymnast equivalent meditators, but 123 00:08:43,196 --> 00:08:45,476 Speaker 1: I want to talk just about those of us who 124 00:08:46,036 --> 00:08:48,556 Speaker 1: do meditation more recreationally for a moment, in terms of 125 00:08:48,556 --> 00:08:51,156 Speaker 1: what the research shows. So, what do you think are 126 00:08:51,196 --> 00:08:55,756 Speaker 1: some of the biggest misconceptions people have about what meditation 127 00:08:56,356 --> 00:08:58,516 Speaker 1: can do and what meditation can't do. 128 00:08:59,196 --> 00:09:02,076 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, one of the things that's important to point 129 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 2: out at the beginning is that not all forms of 130 00:09:05,116 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 2: meditation are the same. There are literally hundreds of different 131 00:09:08,636 --> 00:09:12,316 Speaker 2: kinds of menas meditation practices, and only a small fraction 132 00:09:12,396 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 2: of them have actually been investigated in the West. You know, 133 00:09:16,796 --> 00:09:20,236 Speaker 2: sometimes I think the lay public thinks that we're a 134 00:09:20,276 --> 00:09:23,956 Speaker 2: lot further along in this research than we actually are. 135 00:09:24,556 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 2: We're still pretty much in kindergarten. 136 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: Yeah. 137 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 2: Having said that, it's also important to point out that 138 00:09:31,796 --> 00:09:36,836 Speaker 2: meditation did not arise over the course of history to 139 00:09:37,316 --> 00:09:43,716 Speaker 2: treat illness, be it physical or mental. What meditation is 140 00:09:43,836 --> 00:09:48,596 Speaker 2: good for, I think is in nurturing the core elements 141 00:09:48,676 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 2: of what it means to flourish. And we've written a 142 00:09:53,156 --> 00:09:57,476 Speaker 2: lot about that, and we have described four key pillars 143 00:09:57,956 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 2: of well being or flourishing. There is evidence to suggest 144 00:10:02,236 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 2: that meditation can nurture each of these pillars of wellbeing 145 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:12,996 Speaker 2: or flourishing, and then they can have beneficial effects in 146 00:10:13,036 --> 00:10:14,236 Speaker 2: a variety of ways. 147 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:16,236 Speaker 1: Do you mind talking about those pillars? 148 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:20,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, So these four pillars of wellbeing are the following. 149 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:23,956 Speaker 2: The first we call awareness, which is where mindfulness would 150 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:28,236 Speaker 2: be and it includes our capacity to focus our attention. 151 00:10:28,996 --> 00:10:34,436 Speaker 2: It also includes our capacity for what scientists call meta 152 00:10:34,516 --> 00:10:38,236 Speaker 2: awareness and what is met awareness. Met awareness is knowing 153 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 2: what our minds are doing. Now, to some listeners, that 154 00:10:42,276 --> 00:10:44,556 Speaker 2: may seem a little strange. Don't we always know what 155 00:10:44,596 --> 00:10:48,116 Speaker 2: our minds are doing. But one of the examples that 156 00:10:48,196 --> 00:10:51,276 Speaker 2: I often give is reading a book where you might 157 00:10:51,316 --> 00:10:53,756 Speaker 2: be reading each word on a page, and you might 158 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,716 Speaker 2: be reading one page, you might be reading two pages, 159 00:10:56,956 --> 00:10:59,116 Speaker 2: and after a few minutes you realize you have no 160 00:10:59,356 --> 00:11:02,876 Speaker 2: idea what you've just read. Your mind is lost somewhere else. 161 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:06,356 Speaker 2: But the moment you recognize that is a moment of 162 00:11:06,396 --> 00:11:09,876 Speaker 2: meta awareness. It's a moment of awakening. And it turns 163 00:11:09,916 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 2: out that metawareness is super important. We think it's actually 164 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:19,556 Speaker 2: a necessary ingredient for all other forms of human flourishing 165 00:11:19,636 --> 00:11:25,556 Speaker 2: and transformation, and we know that simple practices to cultivate 166 00:11:25,596 --> 00:11:29,356 Speaker 2: awareness can help to nurture this quality of meta awareness. 167 00:11:30,236 --> 00:11:33,196 Speaker 1: Do you have a recommendation about the kind of practices 168 00:11:33,236 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 1: that have been shown to have a positive impact on focus. 169 00:11:36,796 --> 00:11:41,956 Speaker 2: Yes, These include the most frequently taught forms of meditation 170 00:11:42,756 --> 00:11:46,716 Speaker 2: in the West, and they would be all the forms 171 00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:50,076 Speaker 2: of meditation we would include in mindfulness meditation. And so 172 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:55,836 Speaker 2: we often would take an object as our focus, and 173 00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:59,716 Speaker 2: it might be our breath, it could be an external object, 174 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:04,196 Speaker 2: it could be sound, and we become aware of that object. 175 00:12:04,196 --> 00:12:08,556 Speaker 2: We know that we're attending to that object. And then 176 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 2: when our mind find wanders, which it inevitably, will you 177 00:12:12,996 --> 00:12:16,196 Speaker 2: simply gently bring it back to that focus. And that's 178 00:12:16,316 --> 00:12:20,876 Speaker 2: what the training is. It's strengthening this muscle of meta awareness. 179 00:12:21,076 --> 00:12:25,156 Speaker 2: And you do that again and again and again and 180 00:12:25,196 --> 00:12:26,076 Speaker 2: again and again. 181 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:30,756 Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing the second pillar of well being 182 00:12:30,836 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 1: and flourishing? 183 00:12:31,836 --> 00:12:36,116 Speaker 2: Sure? The second pillar is connection, and connection here is 184 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:42,396 Speaker 2: about the qualities which are important for healthy social relationships. 185 00:12:42,956 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 2: Qualities like appreciation and gratitude, kindness, compassion, all would be 186 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 2: included in connection. And also we like to have a 187 00:12:55,116 --> 00:12:59,996 Speaker 2: very broad view of connection to not only other social beings, 188 00:13:00,276 --> 00:13:05,636 Speaker 2: but also to our environment, to our land, to nature, 189 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:10,396 Speaker 2: to our planet, which we think actual can help to 190 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 2: promote more intelligent ecological decision making. 191 00:13:15,996 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: There's one kind of meditation practice that focuses exclusively on 192 00:13:19,876 --> 00:13:23,876 Speaker 1: the second pillar, which is cultivating compassion. And I was 193 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:26,156 Speaker 1: wondering if you could tell me a bit more about 194 00:13:26,156 --> 00:13:29,956 Speaker 1: this one study in particular, where they compared the effectiveness 195 00:13:29,956 --> 00:13:34,836 Speaker 1: of compassion and cognitive behavioral therapy or cognitive therapy on 196 00:13:35,476 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 1: people's altruism. 197 00:13:37,796 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 2: Sure happy to do that. This was actually a study 198 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:46,356 Speaker 2: from our own lab, and participants were recruited for a 199 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 2: study where they were told that they would learn a 200 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 2: strategy to promote their well being, and then they were 201 00:13:54,076 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 2: randomly assigned to one of two groups. One group was 202 00:13:58,516 --> 00:14:01,996 Speaker 2: a compassion meditation group and a second group was a 203 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 2: group that received training in cognitive behavioral therapy. The compassion 204 00:14:07,436 --> 00:14:13,756 Speaker 2: meditation group, they were given classical instructions for a simple 205 00:14:13,876 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 2: form of compassion meditation that began with a loved one, 206 00:14:18,396 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 2: where they were asked to bring into their mind a 207 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 2: person who they're close to. It could be a family member, 208 00:14:25,876 --> 00:14:29,436 Speaker 2: it could be a very close friend or colleague, and 209 00:14:30,676 --> 00:14:34,156 Speaker 2: think back and imagine a time in their life when 210 00:14:34,196 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 2: they may have had some difficulty and as you are 211 00:14:38,756 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 2: bringing them into your mind in your heart, cultivate the 212 00:14:41,956 --> 00:14:46,876 Speaker 2: strong aspiration that they'd be relieved of suffering. And they 213 00:14:47,156 --> 00:14:52,596 Speaker 2: were taught a simple phrase to use, May you be happy, 214 00:14:53,036 --> 00:14:56,596 Speaker 2: May you be free of suffering, And then simply repeat 215 00:14:56,676 --> 00:15:01,396 Speaker 2: that phrase a few times in your mind, and then rest. 216 00:15:02,036 --> 00:15:05,516 Speaker 2: And after the first category, which is a loved one, 217 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:10,476 Speaker 2: a person moves on to themselves. Often that's very challenging 218 00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 2: for people in our country in particular. The third category 219 00:15:15,916 --> 00:15:20,116 Speaker 2: we call a stranger, and it's a very particular definition 220 00:15:20,156 --> 00:15:23,116 Speaker 2: of a stranger. What we mean is a person whose 221 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:26,796 Speaker 2: face you recognize, but you may not know them very well. 222 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:29,956 Speaker 2: It could be someone who works in the same office building. 223 00:15:30,276 --> 00:15:32,796 Speaker 2: It could be someone who's in a class that you're in, 224 00:15:32,836 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 2: but you really don't know anything about their lives. So 225 00:15:35,556 --> 00:15:40,396 Speaker 2: imagine that they were experiencing some difficulty, some adversity, and 226 00:15:40,436 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 2: then go through this same process. And then finally, the 227 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:47,956 Speaker 2: last category is perhaps the most important one, which is 228 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:52,556 Speaker 2: bring into your mind and heart a difficult person, someone 229 00:15:52,636 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 2: who pushes your buttons, and go through the same process 230 00:15:56,396 --> 00:15:59,676 Speaker 2: with them. And they did it for thirty minutes a 231 00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:05,596 Speaker 2: day for two weeks. And the group that got cognitive 232 00:16:05,636 --> 00:16:09,436 Speaker 2: therapy received the same amount of training from a very 233 00:16:09,516 --> 00:16:13,796 Speaker 2: experienced cognitive therapist. And in this study we found that 234 00:16:13,956 --> 00:16:18,476 Speaker 2: indeed the individuals who are randomly assigned to the compassion 235 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:22,756 Speaker 2: group behaved in a more altruistic way and they show 236 00:16:22,916 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 2: changes in their brain which the cognitive therapy people didn't show, 237 00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:32,676 Speaker 2: and these changes in their brain predicted the extent to 238 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:36,556 Speaker 2: which they behaved altruistically on the decision making task. 239 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:41,476 Speaker 1: Wow, I'd love to dig in now to the third pillar. 240 00:16:42,196 --> 00:16:46,796 Speaker 2: Yes, So the third pillar we call insight, and insight 241 00:16:47,156 --> 00:16:53,636 Speaker 2: is insight into the nature of the self and the 242 00:16:53,756 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 2: nature of the narrative that we all tell about ourselves. 243 00:16:57,476 --> 00:17:01,116 Speaker 2: So all of us have this narrative, this story that 244 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 2: is who we are, and it's quite normal if you 245 00:17:05,316 --> 00:17:08,276 Speaker 2: will to have this narrative. Everybody has a narrative. This 246 00:17:08,396 --> 00:17:14,356 Speaker 2: is what minds do. What insight is having a deep 247 00:17:14,516 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 2: experiential understanding of how this narrative shapes our experience of 248 00:17:20,316 --> 00:17:24,596 Speaker 2: the world. And when we can have that experiential insight, 249 00:17:25,036 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 2: it can help to free us from the blinders that 250 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:34,796 Speaker 2: are imposed by this narrative. All of us have blinders. 251 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:38,676 Speaker 2: The question is, only some of us are aware that 252 00:17:38,716 --> 00:17:42,076 Speaker 2: we actually have blinders. And if you can be aware 253 00:17:42,116 --> 00:17:47,036 Speaker 2: of your blinders, you have some possibility of going beyond them. 254 00:17:47,556 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 2: And so insight is really that. And we also know 255 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:54,636 Speaker 2: that there are people who are at one end of 256 00:17:54,876 --> 00:17:59,156 Speaker 2: a distribution who have a very negative narrative about themselves, 257 00:17:59,516 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 2: They have negative self beliefs, they have low self esteem, 258 00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 2: and of course that's a prescription for depression. And the 259 00:18:07,996 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 2: science shows that what is really essential for flourishing is 260 00:18:14,036 --> 00:18:17,756 Speaker 2: not so much changing the narrative, but it's changing our 261 00:18:17,796 --> 00:18:21,756 Speaker 2: relationship to the narrative so that we can see the 262 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:25,276 Speaker 2: narrative for what it is, which is really simply a 263 00:18:25,356 --> 00:18:26,876 Speaker 2: bunch of thoughts. 264 00:18:28,996 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: And is there a particular kind of practice that, again 265 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:35,196 Speaker 1: you would guide people towards if they're looking for greater insight? 266 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:40,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, now here is a case where the practices from 267 00:18:40,996 --> 00:18:44,156 Speaker 2: the ancient traditions which are designed to help with this 268 00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 2: are ones that have essentially not been studied at all 269 00:18:49,276 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 2: in the West. 270 00:18:50,036 --> 00:18:50,196 Speaker 1: Oh. 271 00:18:50,276 --> 00:18:55,396 Speaker 2: Interesting, And this practice, the primary practice is called analytic meditation, 272 00:18:56,076 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 2: where you actually reflect, using your thoughts about who this 273 00:19:03,316 --> 00:19:08,476 Speaker 2: self is, where is the self? What form is the self? 274 00:19:08,836 --> 00:19:12,676 Speaker 2: Can we feel the self? Where does the self end 275 00:19:13,076 --> 00:19:17,116 Speaker 2: and another self begin? We can ask ourselves all of 276 00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:21,756 Speaker 2: these questions. And when we ask ourselves these questions and 277 00:19:21,836 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 2: then observe what the answer is, what we come up 278 00:19:25,556 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 2: with is that it is not the unitary, fixed entity 279 00:19:32,876 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 2: that we might have imagined in the first place. It's 280 00:19:35,596 --> 00:19:40,636 Speaker 2: a lot more variable, it's a lot more porous than 281 00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:41,916 Speaker 2: what it's cracked up to be. 282 00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:45,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so resonant with the theme of the show, 283 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:48,956 Speaker 1: which is in large part about self identity and how 284 00:19:49,316 --> 00:19:52,356 Speaker 1: we also see our identities as more malleable than we 285 00:19:52,436 --> 00:19:55,836 Speaker 1: might otherwise. Okay, so now, Richie, let's finish up these 286 00:19:55,876 --> 00:19:57,916 Speaker 1: pillars and talk about the fourth pillar. 287 00:19:58,236 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 2: Yes, the fourth pillar is purpose, and purpose is about 288 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 2: staying motivated. It's about identifying our true north in life, 289 00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:12,156 Speaker 2: and it is not so much about finding something more 290 00:20:12,196 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 2: purposeful to do with our lives, but rather, how can 291 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:19,956 Speaker 2: we derive meaning and purpose from that which we are 292 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 2: already doing, including the pedestrian activities of our daily life. 293 00:20:25,516 --> 00:20:28,836 Speaker 2: Can taking out the garbage be directly connected to your 294 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:32,156 Speaker 2: sense of purpose? And of course it can be. It 295 00:20:32,276 --> 00:20:35,836 Speaker 2: simply requires a little bit of reframing, and so there 296 00:20:35,916 --> 00:20:40,076 Speaker 2: are specific meditation practices that we can do to help 297 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 2: more deeply connect our sense of purpose and our four 298 00:20:45,436 --> 00:20:48,436 Speaker 2: values to more and more of what we do. 299 00:20:49,196 --> 00:20:51,876 Speaker 1: Tell me more about this relationship with taking out the trash. 300 00:20:52,076 --> 00:20:56,316 Speaker 1: I'm curious, so what would be an example of reframing 301 00:20:56,756 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 1: this very annoying task that I have to do in 302 00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:01,876 Speaker 1: a way that feels more purposeful. What could that look 303 00:21:01,916 --> 00:21:02,876 Speaker 1: like in theory. 304 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:06,116 Speaker 2: Well, it could look, for example, like I am taking 305 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:09,436 Speaker 2: out this trash, which will help the people I live with. 306 00:21:10,196 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 2: It will help the community stay clean, it will help 307 00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:18,156 Speaker 2: keep the environment. You know, the possibilities are endless. Yeah, 308 00:21:18,196 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 2: and you know, just reflecting on that, this is what 309 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:25,556 Speaker 2: we call a micro intervention or the microdosing of well being. 310 00:21:26,356 --> 00:21:30,996 Speaker 2: You can spend literally thirty seconds reflecting on that just 311 00:21:31,076 --> 00:21:33,476 Speaker 2: before you do it or as you're doing it, and 312 00:21:33,516 --> 00:21:36,516 Speaker 2: it can completely change how you do it. 313 00:21:36,876 --> 00:21:38,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, and my husband's going to write you a thank 314 00:21:38,636 --> 00:21:42,116 Speaker 1: you note after this interview, Richie being like, man, I 315 00:21:42,156 --> 00:21:44,036 Speaker 1: don't know what you guys talked about. All I know 316 00:21:44,476 --> 00:21:47,436 Speaker 1: is that after her interview on meditation, she's been taking 317 00:21:47,436 --> 00:21:54,396 Speaker 1: out the trash a lot. We'll be back in a 318 00:21:54,436 --> 00:22:08,156 Speaker 1: moment with a slight change of plans. Doctor Richie Davidson 319 00:22:08,316 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: is well known for study he did with what he 320 00:22:10,636 --> 00:22:15,556 Speaker 1: calls Olympic meditators, people who've meditated for well over thirty 321 00:22:15,596 --> 00:22:19,556 Speaker 1: four thousand hours each. While most of us will never 322 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:23,116 Speaker 1: achieve a feat like this, his study represented a major 323 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:27,396 Speaker 1: step forward in meditation science. It showed that meditation can 324 00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:29,636 Speaker 1: change the brain in profound ways. 325 00:22:30,036 --> 00:22:33,516 Speaker 2: The study of these very long term meditators was one 326 00:22:33,556 --> 00:22:37,796 Speaker 2: of the first things that we did when we began 327 00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:42,676 Speaker 2: to fulfill the Dalai Lama's wish to study these practices 328 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:46,556 Speaker 2: really seriously in the laboratory, because we reasoned that if 329 00:22:46,556 --> 00:22:51,356 Speaker 2: we didn't see big differences in people who've meditated for 330 00:22:51,596 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 2: tens of thousands of hours, the likelihood of seeing differences 331 00:22:55,676 --> 00:22:58,716 Speaker 2: in the brain of more novice meditators was not going 332 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:01,356 Speaker 2: to be there. One of the first studies that we 333 00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:05,996 Speaker 2: did is a study of pain. Pain is a very 334 00:23:06,116 --> 00:23:11,396 Speaker 2: well studied phenomenon in neuroscience, and so we know a 335 00:23:11,436 --> 00:23:15,396 Speaker 2: lot about which areas of the brain contribute to our 336 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:20,436 Speaker 2: experience of pain, and we can search for these specific 337 00:23:20,516 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 2: areas very precisely. One of the ways that we can 338 00:23:25,036 --> 00:23:29,196 Speaker 2: interrogate pain in the laboratory is with a painful stimulus 339 00:23:29,196 --> 00:23:31,996 Speaker 2: that is very realistic. And what do we use That 340 00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 2: we use heat. Every one of us has experienced the 341 00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:40,796 Speaker 2: pain of touching a hot stove, and this is a 342 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:46,836 Speaker 2: very robust response that virtually every human being has, and 343 00:23:46,916 --> 00:23:50,556 Speaker 2: so we do it with a device that has a 344 00:23:50,596 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 2: metal plate through which very rapidly circulating water is going, 345 00:23:57,276 --> 00:24:00,596 Speaker 2: and we can vary the temperature of the water very precisely, 346 00:24:01,116 --> 00:24:04,316 Speaker 2: and in this way we can create a burning sensation 347 00:24:04,516 --> 00:24:09,436 Speaker 2: without causing harm. So we brought people into the laboratory 348 00:24:09,836 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 2: and we gave them an experience of this pain, so 349 00:24:12,596 --> 00:24:15,996 Speaker 2: everybody had the same common experience, and then we brought 350 00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:17,556 Speaker 2: them into the scanner. 351 00:24:17,676 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 1: Into the MRI skin the brain scanner, and. 352 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:24,156 Speaker 2: We said that in this experiment, you're going to get 353 00:24:24,196 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 2: a tone, just a beep, and when the tone is 354 00:24:27,156 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 2: a certain pitch, it means that ten seconds later you're 355 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:34,036 Speaker 2: going to get zapped with this pain that you just experienced. 356 00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:39,036 Speaker 2: And it's strapped onto the wrist, which is a very 357 00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:42,876 Speaker 2: sensitive part of the body, and we present the painful 358 00:24:42,916 --> 00:24:47,676 Speaker 2: stimulus for ten seconds. And I've had this done to 359 00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 2: myself many times, and my experience is that the first 360 00:24:51,836 --> 00:24:54,996 Speaker 2: two or three seconds is really intense, but you can 361 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:58,876 Speaker 2: bear it, and then after like the fourth second, it's 362 00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:02,516 Speaker 2: so intense you have no idea how you're going to 363 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:07,156 Speaker 2: survive this entire period. So that's what we did in 364 00:25:07,196 --> 00:25:10,876 Speaker 2: this experiment, and we brought novices in who are just 365 00:25:10,996 --> 00:25:14,396 Speaker 2: learning to meditate. And we brought these Olympic athletes of 366 00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:17,916 Speaker 2: meditation in and I should say that these Olympic athletes 367 00:25:18,356 --> 00:25:21,836 Speaker 2: they all live in Asia. We flew them from India, Nepal, 368 00:25:22,076 --> 00:25:27,636 Speaker 2: and Bhutan to Madison, Wisconsin, where they spent a few 369 00:25:27,756 --> 00:25:32,036 Speaker 2: days being tested. So we brought the people into the lab, 370 00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:37,476 Speaker 2: we give them the tone, and among non meditators, their 371 00:25:37,516 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 2: brains begin to activate immediately before the pain comes on. 372 00:25:42,556 --> 00:25:46,836 Speaker 2: All that has happened is they hear this babe, which 373 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:49,556 Speaker 2: indicates that in ten seconds they're going to get zapped, 374 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:52,356 Speaker 2: and the areas of the brain, which we call the 375 00:25:52,436 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 2: pain matrix which respond to pain, become activated just to 376 00:25:57,436 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 2: the sound, so it's as if the pain has started already. 377 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:05,836 Speaker 2: Then when the actual painful stimulus comes on, they continue 378 00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:09,556 Speaker 2: to show our response. And then when it goes on off, 379 00:26:10,276 --> 00:26:14,396 Speaker 2: they continue to show a response and have a very 380 00:26:14,436 --> 00:26:15,476 Speaker 2: slow drop off. 381 00:26:16,236 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 1: So there's a sticky quality to the pain. It sticks around, 382 00:26:19,196 --> 00:26:20,116 Speaker 1: it sticks around. 383 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:24,596 Speaker 2: It's both during this anticipation period and also during the 384 00:26:24,676 --> 00:26:30,116 Speaker 2: recovery period. Among the expert meditators, they come in, we 385 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:35,636 Speaker 2: present the tone, and there literally is no significant activation 386 00:26:35,796 --> 00:26:39,836 Speaker 2: whatsoever in any area of the pain matrix. The only 387 00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:45,876 Speaker 2: activation we see is activation in their auditory cortex registering 388 00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:51,676 Speaker 2: the sound the beep. That's it. Their brains are completely 389 00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:56,356 Speaker 2: calm except for that. Then when the painful stimulus comes on, 390 00:26:56,876 --> 00:27:00,236 Speaker 2: they show a big response and in fact in the 391 00:27:00,276 --> 00:27:07,076 Speaker 2: sensory regions of the brain which are basically reflecting the 392 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:12,556 Speaker 2: sensory quality of the pain. Often people reported as prickly 393 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:17,436 Speaker 2: sensations that they feel during the pain, the tingling that 394 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:21,596 Speaker 2: area the brain. Among the meditators actually showed an even 395 00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:25,836 Speaker 2: greater response than the controls. But then when the pain 396 00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:29,396 Speaker 2: went off after the ten seconds, it came right back 397 00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:37,036 Speaker 2: down to baseline immediately. That is the neural signature of resilience. Wow, 398 00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:44,036 Speaker 2: the capacity to rapidly come back to baseline after adversity 399 00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 2: and showing essentially no anticipatory anxiety. Yeah. 400 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:54,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this, I mean, this is just absolutely remarkable 401 00:27:55,116 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 1: this finding. And Richie, do we understand at all what 402 00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:03,596 Speaker 1: the mechanisms might be at play here that are leading 403 00:28:03,636 --> 00:28:08,036 Speaker 1: these Olympian meditators to have such a different response from 404 00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:09,076 Speaker 1: the ones that you and I might have. 405 00:28:09,796 --> 00:28:14,836 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the important contributors to this is the 406 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:19,316 Speaker 2: prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex in humans is this big 407 00:28:19,516 --> 00:28:21,556 Speaker 2: chunk of real estate in the front of our brain, 408 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 2: and it is responsible for many of the things that 409 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 2: we often think of as characteristically human. And one of 410 00:28:28,476 --> 00:28:33,316 Speaker 2: the most important elements that's characteristically human is our ability 411 00:28:33,596 --> 00:28:39,196 Speaker 2: to do what psychologists call mental time travel. We can 412 00:28:39,436 --> 00:28:44,436 Speaker 2: anticipate the future, and we can reminisce about the past, 413 00:28:44,836 --> 00:28:46,836 Speaker 2: and we can do that in a way that's far 414 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:51,756 Speaker 2: more sophisticated than any other species. But we need to 415 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:55,196 Speaker 2: get it under control, so to speak. It can afford 416 00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:58,436 Speaker 2: many advantages, but it also can get us into trouble. 417 00:28:59,156 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 2: And so if we can learn to regulate our prefrontal cortex, 418 00:29:04,276 --> 00:29:07,716 Speaker 2: and this is something that we think occurs as a 419 00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:14,276 Speaker 2: byproduct of meditation, then we can basically experience emotions that 420 00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:18,476 Speaker 2: are context appropriate and then have the capacity to just 421 00:29:18,636 --> 00:29:21,596 Speaker 2: let them go so that they come right back down 422 00:29:21,636 --> 00:29:26,836 Speaker 2: to baseline. The quality of emotions lingering beyond the point 423 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:31,676 Speaker 2: where they're useful is what really gets us into trouble, except. 424 00:29:31,396 --> 00:29:34,836 Speaker 1: When they're positive ones. Though, so are these lifelong meditators 425 00:29:34,876 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 1: able to kind of opportunistically use the skill when they 426 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:42,036 Speaker 1: would like the happy glow that comes after a nice 427 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:44,436 Speaker 1: wedding you've attended or a good movie. 428 00:29:45,196 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a really interesting question. And you know, 429 00:29:48,956 --> 00:29:52,716 Speaker 2: the first answer that I'll say is that I don't 430 00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:56,756 Speaker 2: actually think we know, but there's certainly things that we 431 00:29:56,836 --> 00:30:01,236 Speaker 2: can say, and that is that one of the conjectures 432 00:30:01,516 --> 00:30:07,356 Speaker 2: in this tradition of meditation is that the human mind 433 00:30:07,996 --> 00:30:12,716 Speaker 2: is fundamental positive. One way to think about this is 434 00:30:12,756 --> 00:30:18,276 Speaker 2: we're born to flourish. We actually have all these capacities innately, 435 00:30:18,796 --> 00:30:22,116 Speaker 2: just as we have language innately, but they need to 436 00:30:22,156 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 2: be nurtured in order for them to be realized. And 437 00:30:26,036 --> 00:30:30,116 Speaker 2: if we can sort of let go of all the 438 00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 2: gunk that we have accumulated in the process of conditioning 439 00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 2: and social learning and really connect with our true basic nature, 440 00:30:41,676 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 2: which is this quality of basic goodness that is a 441 00:30:45,396 --> 00:30:49,596 Speaker 2: state of enduring well being. And so we don't need 442 00:30:49,636 --> 00:30:52,636 Speaker 2: to preserve anything, we don't need to hold on to anything. 443 00:30:53,076 --> 00:30:57,996 Speaker 2: It's simply resting in the natural state of being, which 444 00:30:58,036 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 2: is positive. Yeah. 445 00:31:00,236 --> 00:31:03,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a hopeful message, you know for those 446 00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:07,396 Speaker 1: of us who who don't end up this superhero Olympic meditators, 447 00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:10,956 Speaker 1: or don't even strive to be that because for example, 448 00:31:11,036 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 1: they know they're not capable of such things. Cough cough myself. 449 00:31:15,756 --> 00:31:18,796 Speaker 1: What lessons do you think we can and should draw 450 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:21,356 Speaker 1: from these findings from these supermeditators. 451 00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 2: Here's the amazing news. The amazing news is that it 452 00:31:25,316 --> 00:31:29,836 Speaker 2: actually doesn't take much to get these systems in the mind, 453 00:31:29,876 --> 00:31:32,476 Speaker 2: in the brain going, and just a few minutes a 454 00:31:32,596 --> 00:31:36,636 Speaker 2: day can really be transformative. What we're talking about is 455 00:31:36,636 --> 00:31:40,316 Speaker 2: something that we believe is really critical for our personal 456 00:31:40,396 --> 00:31:44,236 Speaker 2: mental hygiene. And I think most people would agree that 457 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:48,076 Speaker 2: their minds are even more important than their teeth. And 458 00:31:48,236 --> 00:31:51,716 Speaker 2: the science shows that if we spend even as little 459 00:31:51,756 --> 00:31:54,916 Speaker 2: time as we spend brushing our teeth nourishing our mind, 460 00:31:55,316 --> 00:31:57,956 Speaker 2: this world would be a different place. 461 00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:01,636 Speaker 1: Look, I mean full confessional here, right. I don't meditate. 462 00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:05,396 Speaker 1: I've tried so many times to implement a practice. You 463 00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:07,596 Speaker 1: say five minutes, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's just 464 00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:09,436 Speaker 1: five minutes. And I'm like, wait, five minut It's where 465 00:32:09,436 --> 00:32:12,716 Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be seated alone with my thoughts. No, 466 00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:15,836 Speaker 1: thank you, but I just. 467 00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:17,516 Speaker 2: Well let me give you. Let me say one other 468 00:32:17,596 --> 00:32:19,076 Speaker 2: thing in response to that, and that. 469 00:32:19,076 --> 00:32:21,156 Speaker 1: Is, yeah, help me out here, richie, because like, look, 470 00:32:21,196 --> 00:32:23,916 Speaker 1: I have all the intention of the world. I understand 471 00:32:23,916 --> 00:32:26,676 Speaker 1: the neuroscience behind it. I don't have to be convinced 472 00:32:26,716 --> 00:32:29,036 Speaker 1: of its value. I need to be convinced to do it. 473 00:32:29,356 --> 00:32:32,916 Speaker 2: Yes, And you know you are like millions and millions 474 00:32:32,956 --> 00:32:36,316 Speaker 2: of other people. And here's the thing. You don't need 475 00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:39,476 Speaker 2: to take any time out of your day. You can 476 00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,956 Speaker 2: do this while you're engaged in other activities of daily living, 477 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:47,316 Speaker 2: like taking out the garbage or doing your dishes, or 478 00:32:47,476 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 2: commuting or standing in a line whatever it is. 479 00:32:52,436 --> 00:32:55,196 Speaker 1: Okay, that is the most compelling pitch I've ever heard, 480 00:32:55,676 --> 00:32:57,876 Speaker 1: So thank you, and it's true. I mean, you can 481 00:32:57,876 --> 00:33:00,796 Speaker 1: do that compassion exercise that you just described. Absolutely you 482 00:33:00,836 --> 00:33:04,676 Speaker 1: have that full experience totally. Okay, Wow, Okay, I think 483 00:33:04,716 --> 00:33:07,396 Speaker 1: this might be a transformative moment for me. You know, 484 00:33:07,436 --> 00:33:08,836 Speaker 1: I invite you on a slight change of plans that 485 00:33:08,876 --> 00:33:12,636 Speaker 1: actual this is just a therapy session, Richie. So I 486 00:33:12,636 --> 00:33:15,956 Speaker 1: appreciate your guidance. You know, Richie, we've talked a little 487 00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:18,116 Speaker 1: bit about you know, we can do this for a 488 00:33:18,116 --> 00:33:22,036 Speaker 1: couple of minutes a day and see benefits. And I 489 00:33:22,036 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 1: think I just have a broader question about meditation. So 490 00:33:24,556 --> 00:33:27,396 Speaker 1: it does seem like in recent years in the Western 491 00:33:27,436 --> 00:33:32,276 Speaker 1: world anyway, meditation is often marketed as this self help tool, right, 492 00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:36,356 Speaker 1: something that can make you more productive, happier, less anxious, 493 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:40,196 Speaker 1: what have you. And while it may be capable of 494 00:33:40,276 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 1: doing those very things, helping you achieve some of those things, 495 00:33:43,956 --> 00:33:47,356 Speaker 1: what I gleaned from your book is that traditionally meditation 496 00:33:47,716 --> 00:33:51,996 Speaker 1: was aimed at something deeper, right, something that was more 497 00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:56,396 Speaker 1: other focused. So by meditating, people could cultivate traits that 498 00:33:56,436 --> 00:34:01,076 Speaker 1: would positively impact others, traits like compassion and selflessness and 499 00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:05,636 Speaker 1: equanimity and loving presence. And I wonder how you feel 500 00:34:05,676 --> 00:34:08,196 Speaker 1: about this, and whether you think that as a society 501 00:34:08,236 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 1: we should try and better align with the original intent 502 00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:15,916 Speaker 1: of meditation, or whether we should just accept that this 503 00:34:16,676 --> 00:34:20,236 Speaker 1: self help version is an offshoot. And you know, while 504 00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:23,516 Speaker 1: it might not be quote the purest form, it can 505 00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:25,396 Speaker 1: work for people. It can make their lives better. 506 00:34:26,356 --> 00:34:30,996 Speaker 2: I think this is really such a profoundly important question, Maya, 507 00:34:31,196 --> 00:34:35,916 Speaker 2: and I'm so happy you're asking it. I strongly believe 508 00:34:36,836 --> 00:34:44,196 Speaker 2: that we need to resist this commodification of meditation in 509 00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:48,876 Speaker 2: our center. People often call it, Mike mindfulness well said, 510 00:34:49,236 --> 00:34:55,116 Speaker 2: it is stripping the practice away from the ethical context 511 00:34:55,276 --> 00:34:58,516 Speaker 2: really in which it was originally embedded. 512 00:34:58,676 --> 00:34:58,996 Speaker 1: Yes. 513 00:34:59,156 --> 00:35:02,076 Speaker 2: Yes, And it doesn't take much to bring it back, 514 00:35:02,116 --> 00:35:04,716 Speaker 2: and it doesn't have to be religious. It could be 515 00:35:04,956 --> 00:35:08,676 Speaker 2: ethical in a universal way. And so when I put 516 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:12,796 Speaker 2: my b on the cushion every morning before I formally meditate, 517 00:35:13,236 --> 00:35:18,916 Speaker 2: I invoke the explicit intention that I'm meditating not only 518 00:35:18,956 --> 00:35:23,876 Speaker 2: for myself, but recognizing that having a common mind and 519 00:35:23,916 --> 00:35:27,196 Speaker 2: a more open heart is beneficial for those around me, 520 00:35:28,236 --> 00:35:30,956 Speaker 2: and that I'm doing it as much for them as 521 00:35:30,996 --> 00:35:34,196 Speaker 2: I'm doing it for myself. And it turns out that 522 00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:39,636 Speaker 2: that simple invocation of this altruistic motive can be so 523 00:35:39,956 --> 00:35:43,276 Speaker 2: powerful and can change the nature of the practice. And 524 00:35:43,476 --> 00:35:47,316 Speaker 2: I have the conviction this has never been studied, but 525 00:35:47,396 --> 00:35:50,916 Speaker 2: I have the conviction that the biology of the practice, 526 00:35:50,956 --> 00:35:54,396 Speaker 2: whether it's meditating or physical exercise, is going to be 527 00:35:54,516 --> 00:35:57,396 Speaker 2: affected by the intention that we bring to it. 528 00:35:58,276 --> 00:36:02,356 Speaker 1: I completely share your intuition. I have no idea what 529 00:36:02,396 --> 00:36:05,196 Speaker 1: the empirics will say. That's exactly the thought I had 530 00:36:05,676 --> 00:36:08,916 Speaker 1: as I was thinking about our conversation, which is, would 531 00:36:08,916 --> 00:36:13,156 Speaker 1: we actually find greater effectiveness of the whole thing if 532 00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:16,516 Speaker 1: people's motives, if their intention around the practice was different, 533 00:36:17,756 --> 00:36:20,836 Speaker 1: and you could so easily imagine that that's the case totally, 534 00:36:20,876 --> 00:36:23,916 Speaker 1: and you know, aside from me just loving the more 535 00:36:24,276 --> 00:36:27,716 Speaker 1: virtuous qualities around that original intention of meditation, right, which 536 00:36:27,756 --> 00:36:31,316 Speaker 1: is other minded kindness, compassion. When I think about someone 537 00:36:31,316 --> 00:36:34,036 Speaker 1: like the Dalai Lama to the extent he can get 538 00:36:34,076 --> 00:36:36,516 Speaker 1: pissed off, which he clearly can't because of the Dalai Lama, 539 00:36:36,556 --> 00:36:38,676 Speaker 1: but let's say in this hypothetical world he could get 540 00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:41,356 Speaker 1: ticked off. I just feel like if you were to 541 00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:44,596 Speaker 1: see some versions of Western practice, it would almost be 542 00:36:45,236 --> 00:36:49,796 Speaker 1: offensive Ritchie to his sensibilities, like they've totally bastardized this 543 00:36:49,916 --> 00:36:52,436 Speaker 1: thing so that they can be more productive at work 544 00:36:52,556 --> 00:36:55,796 Speaker 1: and you know, have a slightly higher quality sleep cycle 545 00:36:56,036 --> 00:36:58,916 Speaker 1: or whatever. The many many things were told in mainstream 546 00:36:58,956 --> 00:37:02,276 Speaker 1: media meditation can help with Yeah. 547 00:37:01,956 --> 00:37:05,636 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's true. He has been told about 548 00:37:05,716 --> 00:37:08,956 Speaker 2: some of this kind of direction of the work. And 549 00:37:09,476 --> 00:37:13,596 Speaker 2: one of the things that he has been strongly advocating 550 00:37:13,716 --> 00:37:16,636 Speaker 2: is for kind of secular ethics. And what he means 551 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 2: by that is a kind of ethical framework which can 552 00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:25,076 Speaker 2: be congenial to a person from any faith tradition or 553 00:37:25,116 --> 00:37:28,436 Speaker 2: to someone who has no faith tradition, but really to 554 00:37:28,516 --> 00:37:33,836 Speaker 2: be universal to really help to bring back this ethical framework. 555 00:37:34,836 --> 00:37:36,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean, as a person who 556 00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:41,036 Speaker 1: is not religious and not particularly spiritual, I would really 557 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:44,996 Speaker 1: appreciate having that kind of ethical framework to guide me 558 00:37:45,076 --> 00:37:48,436 Speaker 1: because I think what you have, what I found in 559 00:37:48,476 --> 00:37:51,796 Speaker 1: reading your book is that this original intention was elevating 560 00:37:51,796 --> 00:37:54,156 Speaker 1: ourselves to the best version of human we can be 561 00:37:54,516 --> 00:37:57,636 Speaker 1: with respect to one another. Absolutely, so we can all 562 00:37:57,676 --> 00:38:01,596 Speaker 1: share that same goal irrespective of religious or spiritual beliefs. 563 00:38:02,076 --> 00:38:05,076 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that the very future of humanity 564 00:38:05,836 --> 00:38:08,436 Speaker 2: is really dependent on it. And I think the future 565 00:38:08,476 --> 00:38:11,716 Speaker 2: of democracy is dependent on it as well, which is 566 00:38:11,756 --> 00:38:13,516 Speaker 2: a whole other conversation. 567 00:38:13,756 --> 00:38:16,796 Speaker 1: You know, other thing, what do you see as the 568 00:38:16,836 --> 00:38:19,596 Speaker 1: next frontier? And meditation science? So where would you like 569 00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:21,236 Speaker 1: to see the field head Where do you think the 570 00:38:21,276 --> 00:38:24,356 Speaker 1: most valuable use of researchers time lies? 571 00:38:25,396 --> 00:38:28,316 Speaker 2: I think they're one of the most important things is 572 00:38:28,396 --> 00:38:33,236 Speaker 2: going to be micro practices, really short practices that can 573 00:38:33,276 --> 00:38:37,196 Speaker 2: be done in the moment, sprinkled throughout a day. And 574 00:38:37,396 --> 00:38:40,236 Speaker 2: you know, let's face it that the vast majority of 575 00:38:40,316 --> 00:38:44,156 Speaker 2: people maya are very much like you, and so how 576 00:38:44,196 --> 00:38:48,836 Speaker 2: can we bring these practices to you know, the Dalai Lama. 577 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:52,116 Speaker 2: Every time with him, he always is talking about seven 578 00:38:52,196 --> 00:38:56,636 Speaker 2: billion people on the planet. Everyone has the right to flourish, yeah, 579 00:38:56,676 --> 00:38:59,476 Speaker 2: and has the capacity. And so how do we bring 580 00:38:59,516 --> 00:39:02,716 Speaker 2: it to those people? They're not going to meditate, the 581 00:39:02,836 --> 00:39:05,596 Speaker 2: vast majority of them are never going to meditate. So 582 00:39:05,676 --> 00:39:09,596 Speaker 2: what could we do. Well, we can bring micro into ventionance. 583 00:39:09,836 --> 00:39:13,076 Speaker 2: We can bring these thirty second practices that can be 584 00:39:13,116 --> 00:39:16,876 Speaker 2: sprinkled throughout their day. And this is where the union 585 00:39:17,156 --> 00:39:23,316 Speaker 2: of ancient wisdom and modern technology is really there to 586 00:39:23,436 --> 00:39:24,716 Speaker 2: be harnessed. 587 00:39:25,596 --> 00:39:29,116 Speaker 1: Oh that's so nice. Yeah, I was wondering, Richie, you 588 00:39:29,116 --> 00:39:32,076 Speaker 1: could close us out by actually guiding us through a 589 00:39:32,156 --> 00:39:33,196 Speaker 1: short meditation. 590 00:39:33,676 --> 00:39:38,836 Speaker 2: Happy to do that. So for listeners, you can close 591 00:39:38,876 --> 00:39:43,116 Speaker 2: your eyes if that feels comfortable, and if not, simply 592 00:39:43,396 --> 00:39:51,156 Speaker 2: gaze softly. And let's begin by bringing our awareness into 593 00:39:51,196 --> 00:40:01,756 Speaker 2: our bodies, simply sensing our feet on the floor if 594 00:40:01,756 --> 00:40:08,236 Speaker 2: that's where they are, our sit bones in a chair, 595 00:40:08,716 --> 00:40:17,436 Speaker 2: or where it might be. Let's see if we can 596 00:40:17,556 --> 00:40:25,716 Speaker 2: all lean into this quality of simply being present, where 597 00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:37,636 Speaker 2: all our senses are open, where we are awake, and 598 00:40:37,796 --> 00:40:49,356 Speaker 2: simply noticing whatever may arise in our bodies. And as 599 00:40:49,396 --> 00:40:53,116 Speaker 2: we do this short period of practice, it's really helpful, 600 00:40:54,276 --> 00:40:58,636 Speaker 2: as we discussed earlier, to reflect on why we might 601 00:40:58,756 --> 00:41:03,116 Speaker 2: do such a practice in the first place. And let's 602 00:41:03,156 --> 00:41:11,716 Speaker 2: see if we can find within ourselves this understanding that 603 00:41:12,996 --> 00:41:18,156 Speaker 2: calming our mind and warming our heart is beneficial not 604 00:41:18,316 --> 00:41:25,396 Speaker 2: only for ourselves, but also benefits all of the people 605 00:41:25,476 --> 00:41:34,156 Speaker 2: that we touch directly or indirectly. So let's spend a 606 00:41:34,196 --> 00:41:41,796 Speaker 2: few moments leaning into this altruistic motivation if we can't. 607 00:41:56,436 --> 00:42:01,956 Speaker 2: And these have been challenging times for so many of us, 608 00:42:03,636 --> 00:42:09,356 Speaker 2: and one of the elements that's often helpful during times 609 00:42:09,396 --> 00:42:16,876 Speaker 2: of adversity is to have someone that we connect with, 610 00:42:18,036 --> 00:42:20,876 Speaker 2: someone who has been helpful to us in whatever way. 611 00:42:21,716 --> 00:42:26,796 Speaker 2: And let's now bring a person into our mind and 612 00:42:26,916 --> 00:42:32,476 Speaker 2: our heart who has been helpful in some way over 613 00:42:32,516 --> 00:42:48,276 Speaker 2: this past year, and allow this sense of appreciation to 614 00:42:48,396 --> 00:42:56,996 Speaker 2: arise for whatever ways in which they might have been helpful, 615 00:43:05,796 --> 00:43:09,836 Speaker 2: and even reflecting on how you may express your gratitude 616 00:43:10,676 --> 00:43:26,516 Speaker 2: to this person the next time you're with them. And 617 00:43:26,636 --> 00:43:32,196 Speaker 2: as we end this very short period of practice and 618 00:43:33,276 --> 00:43:38,516 Speaker 2: slowly open our eyes and re engage, let's see if 619 00:43:38,556 --> 00:43:46,436 Speaker 2: we can take whatever insight, whatever benefit we may have 620 00:43:46,556 --> 00:43:52,676 Speaker 2: gleaned from this time together and bring it out into 621 00:43:52,716 --> 00:43:57,516 Speaker 2: the world in a way that could be of benefit 622 00:43:57,556 --> 00:44:06,556 Speaker 2: to others. So thank you all, and thank you Dear 623 00:44:06,636 --> 00:44:11,756 Speaker 2: Mayah for your wonderful questions, and may you all have 624 00:44:11,836 --> 00:44:29,836 Speaker 2: a very happy remainder of your day. 625 00:44:53,876 --> 00:44:56,916 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week 626 00:44:56,996 --> 00:45:00,636 Speaker 1: when I talk to psychologist Kristin Neth. She explains why 627 00:45:00,676 --> 00:45:04,156 Speaker 1: it's important to treat ourselves with self compassion and how 628 00:45:04,196 --> 00:45:08,236 Speaker 1: self compassion is actually more motivating than shame. And if 629 00:45:08,236 --> 00:45:11,876 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this convert on Meditation, you might enjoy an 630 00:45:11,876 --> 00:45:15,476 Speaker 1: episode I created with the team at Meditative Story. I 631 00:45:15,556 --> 00:45:18,116 Speaker 1: reflect on a memorable walk I had with my dad 632 00:45:18,196 --> 00:45:22,196 Speaker 1: decades ago. His wisdom helped me navigate a painful time. 633 00:45:22,916 --> 00:45:26,276 Speaker 1: The episode is filled with short meditations as well. It's 634 00:45:26,316 --> 00:45:29,116 Speaker 1: called Maya's Slight Change in Perspective and we'll link to 635 00:45:29,156 --> 00:45:41,676 Speaker 1: it in the show notes. See you next week. A 636 00:45:41,716 --> 00:45:45,036 Speaker 1: slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 637 00:45:45,036 --> 00:45:48,596 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our 638 00:45:48,636 --> 00:45:53,356 Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 639 00:45:53,396 --> 00:45:58,756 Speaker 1: producer Trisha Bobida, and our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. Luis 640 00:45:58,796 --> 00:46:02,356 Speaker 1: Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped 641 00:46:02,436 --> 00:46:05,236 Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a 642 00:46:05,236 --> 00:46:08,716 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, 643 00:46:09,436 --> 00:46:12,756 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 644 00:46:13,276 --> 00:46:15,756 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 645 00:46:15,796 --> 00:46:17,116 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker.