Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Minky.
Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 1: I know many of you out there are hungry for
Speaker 1: more paranormal content these days. What if I told you
Speaker 1: there is about to be a community just for fans
Speaker 1: of ghosts and hauntings like us. For months, I've been
Speaker 1: working on something incredible and I am so thrilled to
Speaker 1: be releasing it into the wild. I'd like to be
Speaker 1: the first to welcome you to the Paranormal Circle. Imagine
Speaker 1: a place where you can access weekly live chats and
Speaker 1: roundtable discussions about all things supernatural. Watch twenty four to
Speaker 1: seven webcams positioned inside some of your favorite haunted locations.
Speaker 1: In addition to that, you'll be able to watch and
Speaker 1: assist during live streaming investigations with me and some of
Speaker 1: my friends who you may recognize. You'll also be granted
Speaker 1: access to an archive of evidence from these investigations, and
Speaker 1: you can upload your own evidence for all of us
Speaker 1: to weigh in on. Even more, you will be on
Speaker 1: the list for private in person meetups plus dedicated Paranormal
Speaker 1: Circle meetups at your favorite paranormal conventions. Strange escapes, retreats,
Speaker 1: and comic cons. We've also worked with many of these
Speaker 1: events and your favorite paranormal retailers to offer Paranormal Circle
Speaker 1: only discounts. All of this, plus dedicated merchandise and swag giveaways,
Speaker 1: amounts to one really cool space for all of us
Speaker 1: to enjoy together. If this sounds right up your dark alley,
Speaker 1: then I'd like to personally invite you to be one
Speaker 1: of the first to join the Paranormal Circle. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to join the waiting list to be one of
Speaker 1: the founding members of the Circle, head to Amybrunie dot
Speaker 1: com and get on the list asap. We'll be opening
Speaker 1: up membership this spring, and those on the waiting list
Speaker 1: get first access. Again, all of this is only accessible
Speaker 1: to Paranormal Circle members, so head to Amy Bruney dot
Speaker 1: com and join the waiting list today. What is it
Speaker 1: about trains? If you followed my career for a while,
Speaker 1: you know I've had a few paranormal run ins very
Speaker 1: much having to do with trains. Perhaps most memorable is
Speaker 1: the time I investigated the exact spot on train tracks
Speaker 1: where decades earlier, a car carrying four women had been
Speaker 1: t boned by a train, killing three of them instantly.
Speaker 1: My investigation there was captured on the Kindred Spirits episode
Speaker 1: fittingly titled Ghost Train. As I sat in the darkness,
Speaker 1: listening back to my recorder hoping for an answer, I
Speaker 1: got a lot more than I bargained for. Out of
Speaker 1: the blue, the railroad crossing lights and bells came on
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, a shocking occurrence in the still of
Speaker 1: the night. There was no train. The tracks ran one
Speaker 1: train in the summer, and that was it. This was
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, in the winter. And when
Speaker 1: we investigated further by calling the folks who supposedly serviced
Speaker 1: that train crossing, they claimed it wasn't even functional at
Speaker 1: that time. But even beyond that, there is something you
Speaker 1: don't know about that investigation, something that didn't make air.
Speaker 1: You see that night as I ran, yes, I literally ran, well,
Speaker 1: maybe we can say hustled in order to save my dignity. Anyway,
Speaker 1: As I made my way back to the car, I
Speaker 1: saw standing in the forest by the side of the
Speaker 1: road a very tall, dark figure watching us just from
Speaker 1: the tree line. My producer saw it, too, loudly saying
Speaker 1: did you see that? As we got in the car,
Speaker 1: so as you can imagine the idea of ghosts and
Speaker 1: trains together both fascinate and terrify me. On that note,
Speaker 1: why don't you climb aboard and join me as we
Speaker 1: venture to the Buffalo Central Terminal. Maybe I'll even let
Speaker 1: you ride in the kaboots. Sorry I had to.
Speaker 2: I'm Amy Bruney, and welcome to Haunted Road in.
Speaker 1: Buffalo, New York. Nestled between Lake Erie and Niagara Falls,
Speaker 1: not too far from the Canadian border, stands a seventeen
Speaker 1: story tower with a massive round clock mounted on its front.
Speaker 1: Once the tower was regularly lit by floodlights, and it
Speaker 1: was said to be visible from fifteen miles away. It's
Speaker 1: one of the many features of Buffalo Central Terminal, a
Speaker 1: nearly century old railway station. Although the brick walls are
Speaker 1: worn with age, you can see its old grandeur in
Speaker 1: the tall arched ceilings. In the main concourse, there's six
Speaker 1: stories high, with five story windows on the walls. Tiles
Speaker 1: and metal grills feature geometric patterns in flor de les.
Speaker 1: Its airy in sunlit at least outside of the tower,
Speaker 1: which has boards over its windows. The station features numerous
Speaker 1: Art Deco flourishes which were popular when construction on the
Speaker 1: station began on March twenty ninth, nineteen twenty six. At
Speaker 1: the time, railroads were particularly important to Buffalo's economy. Once
Speaker 1: the western terminus of the Erie Canal, the city was
Speaker 1: a thoroughfare for travelers. In a United States Department of
Speaker 1: Interior report, Claire L. Ross wrote, one historian has noted
Speaker 1: that no American city during the late nineteenth and early
Speaker 1: twentieth centuries owes more to railroads than did Buffalo. Buffalo
Speaker 1: had a railway as early as eighteen forty eight, and
Speaker 1: it was considered the second biggest train hub in the
Speaker 1: United States after Chicago, as reported by John Hag, Thomas Fidelli,
Speaker 1: and Michael Fidelli in Photographic History of Buffalo Central Terminal,
Speaker 1: But there was no central meeting place for all the
Speaker 1: various lines. In eighteen seventy nine, Buffalo residents began calling
Speaker 1: for just that, and a little under fifty years later,
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Central Terminal broke ground. It had seven platforms
Speaker 1: under the concourse with fourteen sets of tracks, and it
Speaker 1: hosted offices for fifteen hundred employees, a separate mall building,
Speaker 1: and per Claire Ross's report, an underground tunnel for baggage.
Speaker 1: The depot was constructed roughly two and a half miles
Speaker 1: from Buffalo's downtown district, which might sound odd for a
Speaker 1: transportation hub, but the city had been going through an
Speaker 1: explosive period of growth. Planners fully expected that the downtown
Speaker 1: neighborhood would also spread, eventually stretching right up to the
Speaker 1: Buffalo Central Terminal's front doors. After all, this was a
Speaker 1: period of expansion and transformation, and it seemed wise to
Speaker 1: account for that when building. When the terminal opened its
Speaker 1: doors to the public, the Mayor of Buffalo declared the
Speaker 1: day a civic holiday, and in addition to giving a
Speaker 1: speech at the opening ceremony, he donated a large stuffed
Speaker 1: buffalo head to the train station. The event was also
Speaker 1: marked with a stylish party, and more than two thousand
Speaker 1: guests gathered to watch the station's first ever departure at
Speaker 1: two ten pm, as reported by Dwayne Claude and Cassidy
Speaker 1: O'Connor in Haunted Buffalo Ghosts in the Queen City. Early
Speaker 1: visitors also had the opportunity to peruse the station's other offerings,
Speaker 1: like restaurants, newsstands, barbershops, and stores selling toys and jewelry,
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, the lavish opening celebrations happened on June twenty second,
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, just four months before Black Thursday, the
Speaker 1: day some historians point to as the start of the
Speaker 1: Great Depression. As people lost their jobs and homes, they
Speaker 1: weren't traveling as much as before. Between nineteen twenty nine,
Speaker 1: the year Buffalo Central Terminal open, and in nineteen thirty three,
Speaker 1: the New York Central Railroad lost money consistently. This included
Speaker 1: more than eighty percent of its net revenue from passengers.
Speaker 1: It didn't help matters that the federal government rolled back
Speaker 1: certain subsidies for railway systems, meaning maintenance and repair costs
Speaker 1: started falling on private owners. Naturally, as expenses went up
Speaker 1: when profits went down, the Buffalo Central Terminal became a
Speaker 1: financial burden and its former potential transformed into a liability.
Speaker 1: By the mid nineteen thirties, when the depot was only
Speaker 1: about a decade old, portions of the building were shut
Speaker 1: down due to lack of use. Likewise, the town of
Speaker 1: Buffalo's period of expansion stalled to a stop, and the
Speaker 1: downtown neighborhood never grew to reach the depot the way
Speaker 1: the original builders had hoped it would since it first
Speaker 1: opened nearly a cent ago. The Buffalo Central Terminal only
Speaker 1: operated at full capacity during one time period, World War Two. Understandably,
Speaker 1: as members of the military moved across the country, they
Speaker 1: needed to use railways more frequently, but civilian rail usage
Speaker 1: increased as well. Gas rations made it impractical for people
Speaker 1: to drive as much as they might otherwise. Enlistes and
Speaker 1: anyone else traveling through the Buffalo Central Terminal would stop
Speaker 1: by a large stuffed bison in the concourse and pat
Speaker 1: its head, as reported by Ponite Pharma on Alcatron's Buffalo
Speaker 1: Central Terminal web page. Soldiers's girlfriends would also kiss them
Speaker 1: goodbye well before they boarded, as they weren't allowed onto
Speaker 1: the platform. According to the Buffalo Courier Express and Journal,
Speaker 1: Benedict Brooke wrote that the top selling item for jewelers
Speaker 1: at the station were ten dollars engagement rings, presumably so
Speaker 1: servicemen could make last minute proposals before shipping off to
Speaker 1: their deployments. At one point, a reporter from the Buffalo
Speaker 1: Courier Express described how one train loaded with about five
Speaker 1: hundred servicemen and volunteers pulled away from the station on
Speaker 1: Christmas Day. Sadly, Buffalo locals who were killed in action
Speaker 1: would often return to the terminal as well, when the
Speaker 1: government shipped their remains back home. Even POWs passed through
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Train depot. In some cases, captured German soldiers
Speaker 1: were put to work at the station. But this period
Speaker 1: of high usage and regular traffic couldn't last forever. After
Speaker 1: the war ended, the Buffalo Central Terminal fell back into disuse.
Speaker 1: In the nineteen fifties, only a handful of trains departed
Speaker 1: from its platforms, local lines, plus one that made five
Speaker 1: daily trips to Niagara Falls. By nineteen fifty nine, even
Speaker 1: the waterfall trips were suspended due to lack of interest.
Speaker 1: Two years after that, the terminal only boasted one single
Speaker 1: departure per day, a train that ran to New York City.
Speaker 1: By December third, nineteen sixty seven, that too, was discontinued.
Speaker 1: For about a decade afterward, various railways tried to find
Speaker 1: ways to utilize the Grand Train station, but none of
Speaker 1: these ventures were successful. Portions of the facility had to
Speaker 1: be demolished. The property tax alone was too expensive to
Speaker 1: justify keeping them standing. In nineteen seventy nine, the winter
Speaker 1: heating bill at the terminal was one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, the equivalent of roughly six hundred thirty thousand
Speaker 1: dollars today. Ironically, the hefty expense was part of what
Speaker 1: kept the Buffalo Central Terminal standing even after it stopped
Speaker 1: operating as a train depot. Demolishing a whole building is expensive,
Speaker 1: and it was cheaper for the owners to just abandon
Speaker 1: it and let it fall into disuse. In nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 1: a man named Anthony Fidele stepped forward to save the
Speaker 1: Buffalo Central Terminal. That year, when the two the train station
Speaker 1: went up for auction, Anthony was the only prospective buyer
Speaker 1: to place a bid, so he purchased the old depot
Speaker 1: for seventy five thousand dollars adjusted for inflation, that's three
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars today. He planned to renovate
Speaker 1: it into a massive complex that would draw tourists, complete
Speaker 1: with lodging shops in an event space that could host
Speaker 1: concerts or sporting events. If Buffalo's downtown area had expanded
Speaker 1: and grown around the train station like the builders originally intended,
Speaker 1: that plan might have worked, but it still hadn't, so
Speaker 1: those ambitions never came to fruition. Even when Anthony managed
Speaker 1: to set up a few events at the Central Terminal,
Speaker 1: like a festival for the local Polish community and a
Speaker 1: couple of boxing tournaments, they weren't exactly successful. The authorities
Speaker 1: shut the events down due to a lack of proper
Speaker 1: licensing and perhaps more importantly, because the fire department deemed
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Central Terminal was unsafe. While the train station
Speaker 1: crumbled around him, Anthony didn't give up on his vision.
Speaker 1: He lived on site in an apartment in either the
Speaker 1: third or fourth floor of the Central Tower because he
Speaker 1: had concerns about intruders breaking into the terminal. Anthony lived
Speaker 1: with a protective German shepherd named Moose. All the while
Speaker 1: he was falling further behind on the property taxes he
Speaker 1: owed on the depot, and even setting up a repayment
Speaker 1: plan wasn't enough to get him out of debt. In
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, he had no choice but to auction
Speaker 1: off the building. The new owner didn't do much of
Speaker 1: anything to restore or even maintain the facility, which fell
Speaker 1: further into disrepair until nineteen ninety seven. Then finally the
Speaker 1: Buffalo Central Terminal was bought by the Central Terminal Restoration Corporation,
Speaker 1: a nonprofit group that began a multi decade renovation effort.
Speaker 1: In the Buffalo News, reporter Rick Stofer said they bought
Speaker 1: the depot for just one dollar, but their expenses were
Speaker 1: greater than that, as they also agreed to pay half
Speaker 1: the five figure back tax bill for the station, and
Speaker 1: of course, they also took on the hefty expenses of
Speaker 1: maintaining and restoring the facility. Their repairs are still underway
Speaker 1: and the station is in need of significant work before
Speaker 1: it can regain its former glory. Some parts of the
Speaker 1: depot are open for tours, though in the years before
Speaker 1: its long slow recovery, unsubstantiated stories spread about deaths and
Speaker 1: tragedies at the Buffalo Central Terminal. According to rumors, before
Speaker 1: the nonprofit bought the facility, homeless would take shelter in
Speaker 1: the basement, which could get bitterly cold at night. It
Speaker 1: said numerous people froze to death there, and in a
Speaker 1: story that hits a bit closer to home for me,
Speaker 1: a ghost hunter was injured in July of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: She was standing on a roof above a substation that
Speaker 1: collapsed and she felt something like fifteen to twenty feet.
Speaker 1: She had to be rushed to a hospital, where she
Speaker 1: would diagnosed with a broken sh blade, four broken ribs,
Speaker 1: and a punctured lung. But it's done surprising that she
Speaker 1: and other paranormal investigators are drawn to Buffalo Central Terminal.
Speaker 1: There have been reports of spirits there, including the ghost
Speaker 1: of former owner Anthony Fidelli. He died in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: five before many of the major renovations could begin, but
Speaker 1: it's said he still lingers in the tower where he
Speaker 1: once lived. Some visitors say he's answered questions for them,
Speaker 1: while others sends him beside or behind them while they
Speaker 1: go to the tower's third floor, where his apartment might
Speaker 1: have been. Sometimes he's joined by the specter of his
Speaker 1: German shepherd Moose. The Haunted House's web page on the
Speaker 1: Buffalo Central Terminal notes that Anthony can be a bit
Speaker 1: skittish around visitors. He seems to be worried that he'll
Speaker 1: be forced to abandon the depot again, just like how
Speaker 1: he had no choice but to sell it in life.
Speaker 1: Others have spotted what appear to be World War II
Speaker 1: era enlistes and their families. Some are believed to be
Speaker 1: soldiers who died in battle whose remains were transported back
Speaker 1: through the train station. Visitors have also seen what appear
Speaker 1: to be families waiting in futility for their deceased loved
Speaker 1: ones to return from war. Some guests have even reported
Speaker 1: they've heard the voice of a German pow. Writers for
Speaker 1: the Haunted House's website speculated he's still diligently at work today,
Speaker 1: unaware that he's passed away or that the war is
Speaker 1: long over. Additionally, a woman named Rose is said to
Speaker 1: linger near the baggage claim area. She exclusively interacts with
Speaker 1: female investigators and visitors and is said to dislike men,
Speaker 1: and a young girl and a boy who's been dubbed
Speaker 1: Zachary sometimes play in the tower where Anthony Fidelli's apartment
Speaker 1: used to be. Beyond that, the Buffalo Central Terminal has
Speaker 1: many of the features that are common in haunted locations,
Speaker 1: like cold spots, footsteps, and laughter that doesn't have an
Speaker 1: apparent source. Figures appear in Vanish, and a seemingly spectral
Speaker 1: black cat has been spotted multiple times. On one occasion,
Speaker 1: a representative of the nonprofit that owns the station claimed
Speaker 1: to see two men approach a drinking fountain and sip
Speaker 1: from it. Then before the witness's eyes, the men and
Speaker 1: the fountain all disappeared. Ironically, while Buffalo Central Terminal barely
Speaker 1: achieved its potential as a massive railway depot, it has
Speaker 1: become a hub of a different sort, a hotspot for hauntings.
Speaker 1: Up next, we're going to talk to good friend Tim Shaw.
Speaker 1: He is a local investigator and paranormal researcher who has
Speaker 1: investigated Buffalo Central Terminal a number of times. That is
Speaker 1: coming up after the break. So I am now joined
Speaker 1: by someone who may be familiar to many of you,
Speaker 1: who's definitely familiar to me, mister Tim Shaw, who is
Speaker 1: an author, a speaker of regular on the events circuit.
Speaker 1: I see him all the time at para CON's, and
Speaker 1: this guy has the best radio voice. It's as though
Speaker 1: he used to be in radio. Tim, you think, well,
Speaker 1: it's really nice to have you on the program. I
Speaker 1: know you're very familiar with Buffalo Central Terminal. This is
Speaker 1: a location that I actually have investigated, but it was
Speaker 1: under very unusual circumstances. I investigated it on Ghost Hunters Live,
Speaker 1: and so that always kind of has a different set
Speaker 1: of challenges. But in that process, you know, we spent
Speaker 1: multiple days there, even off camera, just kind of getting
Speaker 1: ready for everything, and we had experiences that no one
Speaker 1: got to see, like it is really a very active place.
Speaker 1: So just kind of along those lines. How did you
Speaker 1: get started with Buffalo Central Tournal? What was your role there?
Speaker 3: Well, I was a volunteer there and friends of mine
Speaker 3: actually started the public ghost hunts when they were raising
Speaker 3: money for the terminal, and I started getting involved when
Speaker 3: we started cleaning the place up in order to go
Speaker 3: and make it I won't say inhabitable, but I'll say
Speaker 3: that it would make it more safe for the public
Speaker 3: to walk through. You got it, you know. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm sure you covered before that. It was abandoned for
Speaker 3: a number of years and vandals got in there and
Speaker 3: just really destroyed it after the salvage operations stripped it,
Speaker 3: you know. So that's when I first got involved with it,
Speaker 3: and it's an amazing place. I'm a history nerd from
Speaker 3: way back, and I absolutely loved the architecture, the whole
Speaker 3: idea of how intricately important it was to my area,
Speaker 3: what this building represented. So that's when I really fell
Speaker 3: in love with the building.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it is stunning. It is something to behold,
Speaker 1: you know, you really do. You feel like you're stepping
Speaker 1: back in time, which you truly are, because really not
Speaker 1: much has happened to it since the sixties. I know
Speaker 1: there have been a number of attempts over the years
Speaker 1: to kind of salvage it in some way, but kind
Speaker 1: of like what you were saying, when the first time
Speaker 1: Ghost Hunters went there the show I used to be
Speaker 1: on years ago, the first time they went there, during
Speaker 1: the tour, the man giving the tour actually had to
Speaker 1: go down in one of the tunnels or something because
Speaker 1: they thought there might be someone down there, and he
Speaker 1: got attacked by someone with a crowbar who broke his hand.
Speaker 1: Like you know, it's one of those things. I always
Speaker 1: try to warn investigators that some of these locations you
Speaker 1: don't know who you're going to run into, the living
Speaker 1: or can be much more scary than the dead. And
Speaker 1: this is kind of a good example of that.
Speaker 3: Much more. And you know, and here's the thing, they
Speaker 3: because it was abandoned for so many years, there are
Speaker 3: so many ways to get into that location, or there
Speaker 3: were so many I'll clarify that the new the new
Speaker 3: restoration Corporation that has administered to it, has really sealed
Speaker 3: it up tight. Plus there's cameras and all sorts of
Speaker 3: alarms and all sorts of things now with that building.
Speaker 3: But I believe when you guys came in, it was
Speaker 3: still there were still some openings. A lot of it
Speaker 3: was just you know, sealed with plywood so they could
Speaker 3: push it down or kick it in. And yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean there were a lot of homeless that actually lived there.
Speaker 3: And as a matter of fact, one of the spirits
Speaker 3: there that we've kind of contacted was a spirit of
Speaker 3: a homeless man who actually froze to death in one
Speaker 3: of the tunnels.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was something I covered in the history how
Speaker 1: that happened. Unfortunately often in the winters. I mean, Buffalo
Speaker 1: has a very harsh winter, as many of us know,
Speaker 1: so kind of getting into the paranormal activity there, like,
Speaker 1: obviously you were able to identify as spirit, But what
Speaker 1: what do you think that people encounter there most often? Like,
Speaker 1: what is the most prevalent type of activity?
Speaker 3: You know, I believe a lot of it's a lot
Speaker 3: of residual I'll say about eighty probably eighty five percent
Speaker 3: of what people are experiencing as residual because there's so
Speaker 3: many triggers in that place. People walk in there and
Speaker 3: first of all, they're wild by the architecture and how
Speaker 3: they're actually rebuilding it. But I believe that when we
Speaker 3: start talking about the history of the location vibrationally. The
Speaker 3: spiritualist community that I belong to believes that thoughts are
Speaker 3: things and everything is vibrational in nature. So the actual
Speaker 3: even thought of what happened there, what was going on there,
Speaker 3: can trigger a reaction. So I believe a lot of
Speaker 3: what they're what people are are are feeling, has already happened.
Speaker 3: Now that being said, you know, there are locations in
Speaker 3: that place that definitely had an interaction, an intelligent interaction.
Speaker 3: Tony Fideli's apartment, one of the interim owners of the location.
Speaker 3: He lived at the location. Uh, that is really a
Speaker 3: place that we've gotten a lot of interaction with, and
Speaker 3: uniquely down in the trolley lobby, we've gotten shadow people
Speaker 3: and dark masses that have you know, actually traveled towards
Speaker 3: us in one of the halls and stuff. So there's
Speaker 3: a lot of there's there's enough U two way communication
Speaker 3: for it to really be not just a dead zone
Speaker 3: and picking up just a history of it, but a
Speaker 3: lot of it I believe is all trigger. I mean,
Speaker 3: I really do, because the place is just historically it's
Speaker 3: been at you know, so active. The other thing is
Speaker 3: is just the makeup of the building. The stone masonry
Speaker 3: of that building I believe holds in so much of
Speaker 3: that history and the vibration of that history. And that
Speaker 3: was an emotional place. So you've got to remember that
Speaker 3: not just people coming and going and freight being delivered.
Speaker 3: You know, we're talking about let'st's say World War two.
Speaker 3: You have all these gis leaving, you know, from the
Speaker 3: Buffalo area and passing through, and then how many times
Speaker 3: didn't they well they either didn't come home or they
Speaker 3: came home in boxes, you know, their caskets came home
Speaker 3: that way through the freight the freight area. So it's
Speaker 3: an area of high, high, high emotion. And the mezzanine
Speaker 3: was a USO spot that had a band, and so
Speaker 3: the emotions were always so high, especially like during that era.
Speaker 3: Emotions are vibrations and vibrations imprint. It's just something that
Speaker 3: as spiritual as we take for granted, and I believe
Speaker 3: that's what really triggers a lot of the activity there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I agree, because I thought about that a lot,
Speaker 1: you know, like you were saying, obviously it's a very
Speaker 1: kind of transient place for many years, but also particularly
Speaker 1: that World War Two era, the emotions running high in
Speaker 1: that spot, Like I can't imagine the anxiousness, the wondering
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. You know, many times, you know,
Speaker 1: they were saying that they would sell engagement rings in
Speaker 1: the terminal because these gis would propose at the last
Speaker 1: minute to their girlfriends before they left. So I just
Speaker 1: I can't imagine like what that imprint does to a space,
Speaker 1: and so I do think that definitely has something to
Speaker 1: do with it. I know, I remember seeing a lot
Speaker 1: of shadow figures when I was there, and I remember
Speaker 1: it's always strange when you're doing a live broadcast because
Speaker 1: a lot of people maybe don't understand is that when
Speaker 1: we're doing one of those live shows, it's funny they
Speaker 1: always have to hire crews from like the NFL and stuff,
Speaker 1: people who are used to doing live broadcasts, and so
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're teaching these you know, fifty or
Speaker 1: sixty crew members. All of a sudden you know, they're
Speaker 1: used to trying to catch the action and we're like, no, actually,
Speaker 1: you just have to be very quiet and just don't move.
Speaker 1: But in the middle of all that hubbub, I still
Speaker 1: found myself so many times just by myself in that
Speaker 1: building because everything they were doing was outside, and I
Speaker 1: tell you, it felt very alive. It felt there was
Speaker 1: kind of a hum to it. And I think that's
Speaker 1: kind of what you're describing now. As far as Tony's apartment,
Speaker 1: do you think that's who people interact with there as
Speaker 1: him in particular?
Speaker 3: I believe so because in several EVPs that I've heard
Speaker 3: and I believe I captured when it's been a couple
Speaker 3: of years since I've actually pulled up the evidence from
Speaker 3: the central terminal, we did get the first name Tony,
Speaker 3: and I've heard it repeated in other EVPs also when
Speaker 3: we were using scanner boxes back in the let's face it,
Speaker 3: back in the old days, you know, the old radio
Speaker 3: shack cat.
Speaker 1: Jack cats, that's what I think. I follow.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, yes, that's pretty much. That's pretty much what.
Speaker 3: I still use a lot of the original stuff and
Speaker 3: we would get real time interaction up there, and to me,
Speaker 3: that was really great because we would get a day,
Speaker 3: sometimes we would get a year. Sometimes we would get
Speaker 3: what sounded like a party going on, because Tony was
Speaker 3: a pretty big party guy. I hear right, and you know,
Speaker 3: you would hear several voices and you would hear laughing,
Speaker 3: and I've actually heard what sounded like glasses clinking. That's
Speaker 3: exactly it was. It was amazing because we're all sitting
Speaker 3: there in a circle kind of just hanging out and relaxing,
Speaker 3: and we're going, so, what do you think, Tony, is
Speaker 3: it is? It? Is it cocktail time? And almost immediately
Speaker 3: we got like several like clink clink, clink, click, like
Speaker 3: it sounded like the clinking of glasses over the over
Speaker 3: the scanner. So I kind of figured, then, okay, Tony,
Speaker 3: you you enjoy hanging out with us, so that you know,
Speaker 3: so we always got some really good stuff up there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there any Have you seen any evidence of
Speaker 1: a ghost dog like I heard? I don't remember it
Speaker 1: was Tony's dog, but I think it was Tony's talk.
Speaker 1: Have you seen any ask to shepherds?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I've heard. Now I have a Labrador,
Speaker 3: so I mean I'm used to hearing her feet running around,
Speaker 3: you know, and we've actually heard what we thought was
Speaker 3: the sound of a dog like kind of walking quickly
Speaker 3: and I mean audibly. We actually heard it, and we
Speaker 3: went out looking to investigate. We found nothing. I mean,
Speaker 3: it would have made sense that a dog could have
Speaker 3: a stray dog could have got in there, but we
Speaker 3: would have you know, unless that dog really went and
Speaker 3: hid underneath something, some debris or something. We couldn't find it.
Speaker 3: I mean, we spent probably an hour or so looking
Speaker 3: for you know, trying to debunk that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people ask me about ghost animals all the time,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, you'd be surprised how often we run
Speaker 1: into them. So obviously that seemed kind of intelligent, you know,
Speaker 1: the interaction happening up there. Is there anyone that you've
Speaker 1: encountered there, any spirits you've encountered there that seem like
Speaker 1: they're unhappy in any way or or come off as
Speaker 1: I don't want to say negative, like a negative entity.
Speaker 1: Image is like something you know, maybe just you know,
Speaker 1: a little more mischievous or darker.
Speaker 3: Well, I won't say darker. I'll say that as someone
Speaker 3: who has worked within the spirituals community as a medium myself,
Speaker 3: I will say there's some really net there's a there's
Speaker 3: a couple of grumpy sobs in the place, and you know,
Speaker 3: they'll they'll go. And I believe that they like to
Speaker 3: mess with some investigators. Not so much myself because I
Speaker 3: you know, I've been scratched, pushed, you know, I belong
Speaker 3: to that club, but they like to mess with people
Speaker 3: that are you know, rather I'll just say new and
Speaker 3: they're they don't have that belief system that well, you know,
Speaker 3: this is this is somebody that is just out there
Speaker 3: and they try to go and they try to scare you.
Speaker 3: It's almost like a parasitical spirit where they're trying to
Speaker 3: suck off that energy where it's like you know, the
Speaker 3: heightened anxiety or heightened being scared or you know, something
Speaker 3: of that nature. Yeah, there's been a couple of people
Speaker 3: that I mean have come up to me going, I
Speaker 3: think I got an attachment, and it's like, no, you
Speaker 3: didn't get an attachment, you know, dude, this is just
Speaker 3: this is just this is just a grumpy old you know,
Speaker 3: don't worry, you know, it's nothing to worry about, you know,
Speaker 3: And some people have gotten scratched there. I don't know,
Speaker 3: I wasn't there present in their group when they got scratched,
Speaker 3: So they could have gotten you know, they could have
Speaker 3: leaned up against a concrete wall or something and got scratched.
Speaker 3: But you know, nothing that is I would consider like
Speaker 3: super negative, like you know, within the realm of the
Speaker 3: you know, the demonic. I've never run into anything like that.
Speaker 3: I have down out just outside that trolley area, there
Speaker 3: is a long maintenance area and we were in there
Speaker 3: the one time, and I have to tell you there
Speaker 3: was a like a like a dark mass that really
Speaker 3: kind of sucked up all the ambient light and it
Speaker 3: was slowly coming towards us. I've only experienced it once
Speaker 3: before at Waverley Tuberculosi's Hospital, and so it was unique
Speaker 3: to have that in this Buffalo area because I've never
Speaker 3: experienced it anywhere else. And there was such a feeling
Speaker 3: of dread that we all looked at each other and said,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe discretion is the better part of valor
Speaker 3: on this one. So we're gonna let this We're gonna
Speaker 3: just let this thing have it space because it just
Speaker 3: didn't feel right.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The barometric pressure started to drop and and everybody got that,
Speaker 3: you know, the exorcist call it the gift of discernment,
Speaker 3: where you get that queasy feeling and your you know,
Speaker 3: in your solar plexus. And we all got it. I
Speaker 3: think there was like five or six of us that
Speaker 3: you know that we're there at the time. We're all
Speaker 3: standing there, we all saw it, we all kind of
Speaker 3: felt the exact same thing. And I said, let's just
Speaker 3: let it have it space. You know, there's no you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not. I'm not you know that I'm not of
Speaker 3: that of that cult that goes and pokes the pokes
Speaker 3: the devil. Now, sometimes sometimes it's better to let it
Speaker 3: have it space, let it see what's going on, and
Speaker 3: then next time you go down there, maybe if it's intelligent,
Speaker 3: it will interact with you on a more civil I
Speaker 3: would say, a more civil level, rather than being on
Speaker 3: the defensive. So that's that's probably the worst that I've
Speaker 3: ever experience there. Although you know, again, I've got a
Speaker 3: lot of stories from people that are like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: this happened, then that happened. But for the most part,
Speaker 3: these are people that overreact. They overreact to someone can
Speaker 3: pass win somewhere. It's a demon, you know it.
Speaker 2: It's very true you know.
Speaker 3: You know, that's the only way I could describe it properly.
Speaker 1: Right, you know, I think that's that's really good advice, actually,
Speaker 1: what you're saying. So, you know, I always I use
Speaker 1: the term grumpy ghosts a lot, you know, And I
Speaker 1: always try to tell people, you know, just some just
Speaker 1: because someone dies doesn't mean they stop being a jerk.
Speaker 1: Kind of along those sides. Even when I was on
Speaker 1: when I was on Kindred Spirits, when we were filming Kindred,
Speaker 1: they were they used to get mad at me worth
Speaker 1: using the term grumpy ghost too much. I'm like, what
Speaker 1: do you want me to call them? I do love
Speaker 1: that advice, though, Like when you encounter someone or something
Speaker 1: that seems a little standoffish, like you don't have to
Speaker 1: go right forward at that moment, like maybe just cautiously
Speaker 1: tell them who you are and what you're doing and
Speaker 1: leave and let them think about it. You know. It's
Speaker 1: just like a living person who you're trying to befriend
Speaker 1: or like, you know, you want you don't need to
Speaker 1: come in and kill them with kindness right away and
Speaker 1: be like be my friend, interact you know.
Speaker 3: So but so many people think like that, you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know where it comes from. But I mean
Speaker 3: I've been doing this. I mean I was introduced into
Speaker 3: the lily Dale Spiritualist Assembly here in Western New York
Speaker 3: in like nineteen seventy two, and I've had the religion
Speaker 3: of spiritual and has been in my father's side of
Speaker 3: the family since the eighteen eighties. So I was introduced
Speaker 3: to this stuff early. And for me, I look at
Speaker 3: the point that there's no difference psychologically and emotionally between
Speaker 3: the living and the debt. I really don't. And I
Speaker 3: just to me, they're just like people if we're working
Speaker 3: to let's say, clear something, that's a whole different story.
Speaker 3: You know, you only have so much time to work,
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. You know, you get your you get
Speaker 3: your job done, and you do whatever you have to
Speaker 3: do to get the job. You know, complete it. But
Speaker 3: if you're out there in an investigation and you know
Speaker 3: you can take your time, you can always you can
Speaker 3: go back to the location if it's open or even
Speaker 3: on a public can go back several times. Don't go
Speaker 3: and just poke that Dowvill. It's just not worth it
Speaker 3: because you're not going to get anything then. And then,
Speaker 3: not to be funny, but somehow there may be a
Speaker 3: communication between these energetic personalities, and they may become hesitant
Speaker 3: to even communicate with you because how many times did
Speaker 3: and you, I mean you know yourself, how many times
Speaker 3: have you stood there and had somebody next to you
Speaker 3: catch an EVP you didn't get it? How many times
Speaker 3: have you stood next to somebody that they're k two
Speaker 3: meter or whatever meter they're using is just just blowing
Speaker 3: up and yours isn't doing anything. Sometimes it's just you know,
Speaker 3: you have to be able to go and accept the
Speaker 3: fact that some that some spirits may go and target
Speaker 3: certain people for that communication, or you may be psychologically
Speaker 3: or physically made up to you know, to be similar
Speaker 3: because like one of the natural laws and spiritualism is
Speaker 3: like attracts like so perhaps that but that's it. But
Speaker 3: I believe that if you go in and you're just
Speaker 3: you know, going gangbusters, you're neck, they're just gonna shut
Speaker 3: you right off and you're going to go home and say, well,
Speaker 3: that was a waste of money.
Speaker 1: Well that's just it too. Like when you go to
Speaker 1: Buffalo Central, which I don't know that they're having investigations
Speaker 1: at the moment, but like when you go there, you
Speaker 1: you don't know who it is you're interacting with. You know,
Speaker 1: you could be interacting with someone who you know was
Speaker 1: a former owner and lived there, or you could be
Speaker 1: interacting with someone who tragically passed away, you know in
Speaker 1: the Buffalo winter colds, you know, beneath the building. Or
Speaker 1: you could be talking to someone who served in World
Speaker 1: War Two, or who knows who else, And so it's
Speaker 1: just you kind of have to go in. Like I
Speaker 1: always tell people to investigate, like you're walking into a
Speaker 1: party and you don't know anyone there, and you're trying
Speaker 1: to make friends, you know, and don't assume who you're
Speaker 1: talking to. And I think Buffalo Central Termal is the
Speaker 1: perfect example of that because there are so many different
Speaker 1: facets to.
Speaker 3: It and the amount of people that have passed through
Speaker 3: there is mind blowing. And it was such an integral
Speaker 3: part of the community, that whole east Side, the Old
Speaker 3: east Side, that was the hub of that community. The
Speaker 3: you know, the industry built up around there. Workers bought
Speaker 3: homes in that area. So it has a lot of
Speaker 3: loving memories. I know, even my late father in law
Speaker 3: used to he would come and tell me whenever when
Speaker 3: we used to have the cons there. We used to
Speaker 3: have the para cons there. He would come and see me,
Speaker 3: and he would come and tell me about when he
Speaker 3: was a boy. He would come into the terminal or
Speaker 3: when he was going and you know, they would go
Speaker 3: and visit somebody or pick somebody up. It was amazing
Speaker 3: the stories he had. He's the one that told me
Speaker 3: about the military having the USO and the Mezsline mezzanine,
Speaker 3: and and they used to have a big buffalo. They
Speaker 3: have a reproduction buffalo there now, but the original buffalo.
Speaker 3: All the soldiers as they were leaving, they would go
Speaker 3: and they would rub the foot of the buffalo for
Speaker 3: good luck, until it was like there was no hair
Speaker 3: left on that buffalo. So, I mean, it's it's such
Speaker 3: an integral part. And the emotions that are left over
Speaker 3: there and imprinted in that building are astronomical. And as
Speaker 3: you know, if you're a psychic or a medium and
Speaker 3: you walk into that place open, you can be overwhelmed.
Speaker 3: And that's where a lot of people kind of you know,
Speaker 3: especially if you're ascensia, well you're clai Assentia, you know,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. You walk into that place
Speaker 3: and it's just like Oh my god. You know it's
Speaker 3: like like you know, you get like you open a freezer,
Speaker 3: a deep freezer, and you get hit with that cold
Speaker 3: and it just kind of pushes your back a little bit.
Speaker 3: That's what that type of feeling is in that place.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's so much residual but the but the
Speaker 3: intelligence that's that is there, the love that they that
Speaker 3: they that people have bestowed that in that building is amazing,
Speaker 3: and you know, the sorrow uh sometimes within that building
Speaker 3: is amazing. So heightened emotions really have imprinted there and people,
Speaker 3: you know, they they've seen it over the years here,
Speaker 3: you know, as as as just this spooky, hulking, hulking,
Speaker 3: you know building. And this year last year actually was
Speaker 3: the first year they're really putting the putting a push
Speaker 3: into using the building and using you know, having it
Speaker 3: as an event area. So hopefully they're going to open
Speaker 3: it up. We hope for limited at least limited paranormal investigations.
Speaker 3: That would be great because the place is simply beautiful, uh,
Speaker 3: mind blowing and amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I see I like too.
Speaker 1: Sometimes when they cut off the investigations, I always wonder
Speaker 1: if the spirits get a little upset because they get
Speaker 1: so used to being communicated with regularly and then suddenly
Speaker 1: that goes away. So I think it'd be nice to
Speaker 1: get back in there for sure. But tell me now
Speaker 1: that how do people find you? What are you up to?
Speaker 1: What projects are you working on? Let's give a little
Speaker 1: shout out, Oh my god.
Speaker 3: You can find out more about me at www dot
Speaker 3: Timothytshaw dot com. That's my website, and find me on Facebook.
Speaker 3: And right now I'm doing what I consider locally the
Speaker 3: Cabin Fever lecture series, which I'm doing one class or
Speaker 3: talk per month at Dragonfly Art and Soul in Williamsville,
Speaker 3: New York. And my very first one, I believe, is
Speaker 3: on January eighteenth, and I will be talking about Victorian
Speaker 3: morning rituals and memory more. And I'm going to bring
Speaker 3: some of my collection because I collect all sorts of
Speaker 3: as you know, as I'm sure as you've heard, I
Speaker 3: collect all sorts of crazy stuff. I think Zaffis and
Speaker 3: I are, like you know, we are Siamese twins, except
Speaker 3: that we were separated at birth. Luckily all the although
Speaker 3: we are stuck in the same airports a lot.
Speaker 1: But I've been in the room with you too before,
Speaker 1: so I get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of strange,
Speaker 3: but we're gonna be I'm gonna be doing that, and
Speaker 3: then I'll be in Toledo, uh in April, Mansfield and May,
Speaker 3: I'll be doing something in Virginia and June, and of
Speaker 3: course i'll be up at the Michigan Parra Con in August.
Speaker 3: You know, so this is it's always gonna be fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, it was lovely having you. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time, and hopefully we will meet
Speaker 1: up again before August, but otherwise I will.
Speaker 3: See you then, we will see you, and thank you
Speaker 3: for inviting me on the show.
Speaker 1: Railroad stations are almost by definition, liminal spaces, regions you
Speaker 1: pass through on your way somewhere else. So it's for
Speaker 1: ghosts to linger in rail terminals, staying put for decades
Speaker 1: or more rather than move on. But if there is
Speaker 1: a train depot that seems appropriate for a haunting, it's
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Central Terminal, which spent more of its existence
Speaker 1: sitting in empty stillness and decline than it ever did
Speaker 1: as a bustling transportation hub, while it barely ever served
Speaker 1: as the Railway Corps. It was meant to be, it
Speaker 1: has instead become something that the world might need just
Speaker 1: as much, a home to restless spirits. I'm Amy Bruney
Speaker 1: and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is hosted and
Speaker 1: written by me Amy Bruney, with additional research by Cassandra
Speaker 1: day Alba. This show is edited and produced by Rima Alkali,
Speaker 1: with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers Aaron Menke,
Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaronmanke. Learn more
Speaker 1: about this show over at Grimanmild dot com, and for
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.