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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. Guys, do you remember

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Speaker 3: daytime TV talk shows?

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Speaker 4: Why do I ever bring back daytime TV talk shows?

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Speaker 5: That's what I say?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what were your favorites?

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Speaker 4: I'm joking really, I just have a very distinct memory

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Speaker 4: of watching I think it was Morey No, I think

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Speaker 4: it was Jerry Springer. But maybe I mentioned this on

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Speaker 4: the show before. When I was probably in my late

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Speaker 4: early teens, like twelve thirteen, I.

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Speaker 5: Saw this thing.

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Speaker 4: There was a segment where it was this like white

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Speaker 4: supremacist family like being interviewed on Jerry Springer and they

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Speaker 4: were just using the most hateful, like despicable language, and

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Speaker 4: it was just on TV.

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Speaker 3: And I was just shocked by that and it.

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Speaker 5: Sticks with me to this day.

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Speaker 4: It said some really terrible things, and I was like,

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Speaker 4: this is okay, this is what we're allowing to be

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Speaker 4: the source of, like chair throwing kind of escavations.

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Speaker 3: This is TV. And one of those hosts later attained

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Speaker 3: political power based kind of on the talk shows.

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Speaker 5: Is that true?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think Jerry Sprinker.

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Speaker 5: Well, no, wasn't he. I think he was does before?

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Speaker 5: Oh was before?

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Speaker 3: I think he got a talk show off politics, exact

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Speaker 3: revolving doors.

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Speaker 2: Oh and you know doctor Oz made himself a fancy

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Speaker 2: little closet in the new administration.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, our old friend doctor at Oz.

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Speaker 3: We wish him a great several weeks in positions. Is

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Speaker 3: he in the physics given the turnaround?

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Speaker 2: Is he really he's running Medicaid Medicare I believe? Is this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he got confirmed, but it was in the wind

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Speaker 3: for a while.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, boys, no matter how flat you make

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Speaker 2: a pancake, there's always two sides.

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Speaker 3: That's doctor Phil, and that reminds us of folks like

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Speaker 3: Sally Jesse, Raphael Mari Povich. Yeah, Jerry Springer, of course,

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Speaker 3: doctor Phil. These television stations in the United States were

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Speaker 3: absolutely riddled with daytime talk shows. In the era that

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Speaker 3: halcyon time of the nineteen nineties to the early two thousands,

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Speaker 3: and they were so prolific that they created their own

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Speaker 3: sort of internal genres. And one of the internal genres

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Speaker 3: in addition to look at these white supremacists DA Who's

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Speaker 3: was the idea of finding bad kids and setting them straight,

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Speaker 3: setting them straight by scaring them, just like the like

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Speaker 3: a more intensive version of the program some public schools

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Speaker 3: still do where you take kids to talk to prisoners

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Speaker 3: and they yell at JL right, yeah, yeah, don't make

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Speaker 3: my misteake. Stamp fraud is not for winners.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, since yeah, exactly, we've seen relative actually very

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Speaker 2: recent reenactments of that lampooning of that on Saturday Night

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Speaker 2: Live when I think it was on the twenty fifth

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Speaker 2: anniversary special, they did another one of their Scared Straight sketches.

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Speaker 2: It was also Keenan and other people go through and

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Speaker 2: do that very thing we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: It was also in arreested development, I think, where Jeffrey

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Speaker 4: Tambor's character who's incarcerated, he does a scared straight thing.

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Speaker 5: Like and to some kids.

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Speaker 3: We we be remiss to not point out the legendary

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Speaker 3: Key and Peel they have a fantastic sketch of a

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Speaker 3: this is all comedy. They have a fantastic sketch of

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Speaker 3: a recovering criminal who goes to speak at a public

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Speaker 3: assembly or the assembly at a school, and no spoilers,

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Speaker 3: somewhat embellishes his story. What we're telling you today, what

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Speaker 3: we're exploring today, fellow conspiracy realist, is not embellishment. It

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Speaker 3: is true that a rogues gallery of daytime talk TV

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Speaker 3: crews and producers. They made a lot of money by

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Speaker 3: appearing to take kids on the wrong path and giving

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Speaker 3: them life changing lessons about the consequences of their actions,

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Speaker 3: shaping them up into sober buy the books five by

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Speaker 3: five future citizen assets of the United States. This was

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Speaker 3: I think the TV talk show part. I see that

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Speaker 3: as a watershed moment for all sorts of terrible things

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Speaker 3: because it really pushed the American public to approve of

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Speaker 3: tonight's subject, shock incarceration.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. But there were real programs like

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Speaker 2: that through juvenile correction systems that would be like go

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Speaker 2: to a school and talk. I mean, that was a

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Speaker 2: real thing. It wasn't just in the realm of you know,

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Speaker 2: show it on TV or you know, show it off

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Speaker 2: on a talk show. This was a real thing, This

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Speaker 2: concept of scaring the crap out of kids.

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Speaker 3: It still is a real thing even as we record

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Speaker 3: this evening. Let's pause for a small word from our sponsors,

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Speaker 3: and then we're gonna dive into the concept. Hey, fellow

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Speaker 3: veterans in the crowd, do you like boot camp? What

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Speaker 3: if it was for kids? Here are the facts, all right,

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Speaker 3: Shock Incarceration short SI. You can read about it in

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Speaker 3: all sorts of research that we had to read. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of stuff on OJP dot gov regarding this.

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Speaker 3: It's on paper it sounds really good. It's both compassionate

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Speaker 3: while still being tough on crime, an alternative to traditional

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Speaker 3: imprisonment in the US penal system. It's usually meant for nonviolent,

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Speaker 3: first time offenders, and they're often young. Now, as we'll see,

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Speaker 3: it goes state by state. There's also there have been

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Speaker 3: federal programs, but they're the vibe they all have is

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Speaker 3: that they're modeled after military programs.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: I actually have been working for the last year or

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Speaker 4: so on a podcast about this within the main subject

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Speaker 4: as a guy who went through this program, and the

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Speaker 4: podcast is an a bursive creativity called chock incarceration and

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Speaker 4: it comes out in June. So there's definitely an inside

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Speaker 4: perspective on somebody that went through one of these programs

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Speaker 4: of the very vision that's for adults, like in the

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Speaker 4: US penal system, that you were mentioning them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's go ahead at the top just address

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Speaker 2: the name, because that name is shocking. It is, if

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Speaker 2: you will, when you hear shock incarceration, it summons thoughts,

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Speaker 2: at least in my mind, of alternative methods for controlling

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Speaker 2: someone's let's say, mental health issues in the day.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, well, it does evoke that kind of imagery.

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Speaker 3: Shock is a shock is definitely a choice wise.

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Speaker 2: Makes you think of shock troopers maybe if you if

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Speaker 2: you're aware of that at all, electricity, Yes, it just

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Speaker 2: feels it's got that visceral tone to it that when

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Speaker 2: you hear it, it sounds like it's something worse than

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Speaker 2: being sent being just incarcerated. Oh you're getting shock incarcerated.

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Speaker 5: Crap.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so what what is the difference just between

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Speaker 2: being incarcerated or going through shock incarceration?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 3: Right? So proponents will tell you it is somewhat of

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Speaker 3: a Goldielocks zone. You are put in the military kind

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Speaker 3: of you're putting a military themed thing. So the again,

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Speaker 3: on paper, the requirements are less restrictive than actual facts.

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Speaker 3: Prison shout out to Lure and Vogelbam. We always love

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Speaker 3: crediting a good cats phrase, but it's still more rigorous

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Speaker 3: than something like simple probation, wherein perhaps you take a

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Speaker 3: driving course or a substance abuse or an anger management course,

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Speaker 3: and then you check in, you know, once a month

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Speaker 3: with a probation officer. So it's between those. The term

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Speaker 3: that DOJ often uses is intermediate sanction. This is a

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Speaker 3: very old idea per the Department of Justice. The first

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Speaker 3: programs of this nature they surfaced in Oklahoma and in

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Speaker 3: stuff they don't want you to Know's home state of

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Speaker 3: Georgia way back in nineteen eighty three. So in a

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Speaker 3: very real sense, Nolan Matt, this has been around for

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Speaker 3: the entirety of you guys left.

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Speaker 5: Well, and it's like a goal.

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Speaker 4: You know, you could look at it as a get

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Speaker 4: out of jail free card, like it could be pitched

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Speaker 4: that way, or it's like, okay, you could be getting

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Speaker 4: a four year sentence for some sort of high level

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Speaker 4: drug offense, though non violent but instead you could do

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Speaker 4: this really really just three months, three months or one

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Speaker 4: days three or months or one hundred and eighty days

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Speaker 4: of the most unpleasant conditions you could possibly imagine. And hey,

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Speaker 4: you might learn something too, you know. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 4: a very bar again basically, I mean it is in

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Speaker 4: a form of like you know, trying to offer an alternative.

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Speaker 3: It's an intervention.

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Speaker 2: There you go, yes, yes, And we'll talk about how

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Speaker 2: it differs in some of the states. There are a

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Speaker 2: few examples we'll tell you about from Missouri where that number,

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Speaker 2: that three months number goes down to one hundred days,

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Speaker 2: to thirty days, to fifteen days, to even two days

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Speaker 2: in prison, with the same concept of you're gonna spend

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Speaker 2: a tiny bit of time in prison to understand what

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Speaker 2: you could get yourself into if you continue down the path,

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Speaker 2: you know, as some mentor talking to you or something. Sure,

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Speaker 2: but again it's all part of some form of sentencing

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Speaker 2: that is modified.

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Speaker 3: Modified, yes, not always meaning improved, although that is what

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Speaker 3: they're going for. Yeah, and you know this is not unfamiliar.

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Speaker 3: We could say the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 3: Extended cinematic universe could have one hell of a video

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Speaker 3: called One Night in gen Pop. But these, yeah, these

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Speaker 3: programs exist. They didn't come out of whole cloth either.

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Speaker 3: The idea is you're going to scare Usually the way

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Speaker 3: they pitch it is you scare kids straight, but really

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Speaker 3: they mean nonviolent first time offenders, and you do so

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Speaker 3: with aggressive training rehabilitation programs. The better ones will have

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Speaker 3: substance abuse education, psychological treatment, counseling, career development, what we

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Speaker 3: call community reintegration. Stuff That sounds great. I mean, let's

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Speaker 3: be honest, folks, We've all seen kids headed down the

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Speaker 3: wrong path toward a criminal adulthood and no judgment, fellow

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Speaker 3: conspiracy realist, some of us in the audience tonight have

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Speaker 3: been that kid. The scary thing is, I think everybody,

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Speaker 3: everybody in this country knows the US justice system or

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Speaker 3: penal system is broken. It has a terrible track record, right.

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Speaker 3: Everybody knows that going to prison can sometimes be like

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Speaker 3: going to crime university. Recidivism is off the charts. So

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Speaker 3: the logic there does feel sound. Getting to kids early,

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Speaker 3: or getting to a nonviolent first time offender early because

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Speaker 3: of one mistake, it can maybe save that individual and

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Speaker 3: save the country overall a lot of heartbreak it's kind

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Speaker 3: of like, you know, investing in community is not politically popular,

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Speaker 3: but it is one of the best long term investments

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Speaker 3: a government can make. The Hope Scholarship, by the way,

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Speaker 3: I always think of it this way, I'm when I'm

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Speaker 3: talking with folks. The Hope Scholarship, in a very real way,

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Speaker 3: saved a lot of people from getting their radios stolen

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Speaker 3: from their cars because it gave people an alternative to crime.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure, yeah, no, it stopped me from stealing radios. Sure,

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Speaker 2: how I got into GSU.

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Speaker 3: People still steal radios. I guess it's hard.

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Speaker 2: Out.

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Speaker 3: Well, they steal radios, but now they're just phones.

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Speaker 5: There you go.

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Speaker 3: So in some states, I guess technically, in a lot

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Speaker 3: of states in the US, enrollment in an SI program

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Speaker 3: is sort of voluntary. Like you were saying, no, it's

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Speaker 3: a way to avoid a harsher sentence. You can get

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Speaker 3: sentenced to shock incarceration by a judge the same way

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Speaker 3: you get sentenced to prison. But I believe check me here, guys.

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Speaker 3: I believe that the accused or the defendant does always

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Speaker 3: technically have the right to say no, I don't want

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Speaker 3: ninety days in this boot camp. Send me to prison

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Speaker 3: for four years. I think they technically have the right

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Speaker 3: to refuse that intermediate sanctuar.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it is weird because it is the thing

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Speaker 2: that comes during the sentencing part of a trial. Right,

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Speaker 2: So it's after a jury has or a judge has

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Speaker 2: found a defendant guilty. This is when the even even

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Speaker 2: the possibility of some kind of modified shock detention or

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Speaker 2: incarceration is available. There are a couple of specific things

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Speaker 2: we can get into, like one in Missouri that I

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Speaker 2: think would illustrate this a little bit. But my understanding

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Speaker 2: is that the defendant, when being sentenced, has to essentially

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Speaker 2: agree to it. Like you have to say yes, I

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Speaker 2: will do that, and then I will you spend however

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Speaker 2: many years or months on probation after this shock thing ends.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's correct. That's exactly what we're saying. We've

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Speaker 3: got this. We've got a lot of rights in this country,

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Speaker 3: as we record on Monday, April fourteenth, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how that will age. We've got a

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Speaker 3: lot of rights in this country. In a courtroom that

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Speaker 3: a lot of people are not aware of, and think

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Speaker 3: about it, you're at a tremendously stressful moment of your life.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me of there's so many old powerful here.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me of a thing used to see a

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Speaker 3: lot back in you know, the forties or the fifties,

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Speaker 3: where they would say you can go to prison, or

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Speaker 3: you can enroll in the army and make something of yourself,

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Speaker 3: or you know, the worst case, you can try to

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Speaker 3: get out of the country and join the French Foreign Legion. Hey,

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Speaker 3: there you go, our it's a big dream of ours.

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Speaker 3: If this podcast stuff doesn't work out, and I can't

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Speaker 3: wait to hear are French foreign llegiate monikers right to

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Speaker 3: us if you ever joined the French Foreign Legion, I would.

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Speaker 2: Love to hear that. In Missouri there were situations where

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Speaker 2: shocked attention was part of the plea deal that was

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Speaker 2: given the defendants. So it was that kind of if

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Speaker 2: you agree to this as you plead guilty of this

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Speaker 2: crime that we say you've committed, then you know you

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Speaker 2: only spend thirty days in jail and then spend two

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Speaker 2: years on probation.

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Speaker 3: And it sounds good, but we have to realize there's

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Speaker 3: some devious devil in the detail stuff there, right, because

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Speaker 3: first off, you're admitting to a crime that you may

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Speaker 3: not have committed right, or you don't have the financial

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Speaker 3: wherewithal to get something aside from a public defender. We

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Speaker 3: say that with great affection for public defenders, but their cases,

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Speaker 3: their case loads are harrowing. They're overwhelmed. Right, It's very difficult,

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Speaker 3: and money does move the justice system. So you're given

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Speaker 3: a choice, like you were saying, Matt, that sounds way better.

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Speaker 3: All I have to do is say, yeah, fine, I

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Speaker 3: am guilty of whatever, right, and in doing so, I

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Speaker 3: can get just ninety days or thirty days or one

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Speaker 3: hundred and eighty days versus a four or five or

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Speaker 3: ten year prison sentence. Sign me up, I can do

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Speaker 3: push ups. I'll make it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It is like a partial NOL kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: Contendre, which is when you don't say that you're guilty,

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Speaker 3: but you say no. Look at Tidre is going ah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is kind of weird. I think

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Speaker 2: I pled. I've done that before when I got into

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Speaker 2: a car accident when I was a very young kid,

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Speaker 2: because it was that kind of thing where I've never

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Speaker 2: done anything wrong before. But now now I find myself

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Speaker 2: in court because I got into an accident and Okay,

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Speaker 2: plead this thing you get out of it in a

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Speaker 2: different kind of way. But in this case, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it is a little bit it's not exactly the same,

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Speaker 2: but it does function in the same way. Where it

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Speaker 2: is it is as though you got in trouble and

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Speaker 2: it is on your record in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 2: but it is not the same as spending years in

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Speaker 2: prison for something.

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Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. One of the big one of the big

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Speaker 3: pulls that people use when they're arguing in favor of

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Speaker 3: this is to say that, uh, it will not interfere

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Speaker 3: with future job prospects as deeply and damaging Lee, I

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Speaker 3: don't know if that's word as as you know prison

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Speaker 3: time will be. And I love I just whisper second

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Speaker 3: this because I love that we have nolo contendre. It's

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Speaker 3: technically illegal plea in the US justice system because it's

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent like being in a long term relationship

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Speaker 3: and deciding not to argue. Jess, Okay, yeah, fine.

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Speaker 2: Fine, I did it. Sure, whatever it's my fault.

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Speaker 3: Will go to whatever restaurant you want, damn. So that is, uh,

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Speaker 3: we're we're providing some levity because we need to have

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Speaker 3: this put simply shocking carceration is legal. Uh, it's a

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Speaker 3: messy bag of badgers. It's a sloppy bull of spaghetti.

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Speaker 3: Because states will have different requirements and metrics and oversight

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Speaker 3: or lack of oversight, and there are also federal programs.

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Speaker 3: It is correctional boot camp, and when it works, it

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Speaker 3: does work. We want to be clear about that. You

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Speaker 3: can find multiple accounts. You might know some people. You

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Speaker 3: might be a person who went through this, and you

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Speaker 3: might credit a lot of your modern success to that experience.

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Speaker 3: It's just like that old trope we all heard of

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Speaker 3: the bad kid getting sent off to military school, right,

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Speaker 3: and later he becomes a general the hollow threat.

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Speaker 4: Well yeah, maybe except when it's not and then they

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Speaker 4: become a general. But I swear every time I bring

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Speaker 4: this topic up and talk to people about this podcast

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Speaker 4: that I've been working on, the first question they ask

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Speaker 4: is I'm sorry, what and is that that's legal? And yeah,

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Speaker 4: it is legal. I mean it's shocking, pun totally intended.

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Speaker 4: When you hear about this and think that it seems

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Speaker 4: like such a weird kind of cruel workaround, like almost

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Speaker 4: like humiliating in a way. I don't know, it's very

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Speaker 4: very interesting, very much So I mean, here's the issue.

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Speaker 4: These programs when they spread, you could almost call it

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Speaker 4: in some ways, the social dynamic in the zeitgeist is

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Speaker 4: similar to a moral panic, right like the Satanic panic.

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Speaker 4: People were saying, Hey, we gotta you know, crime is

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Speaker 4: through the roof, We gotta nip this in the bud.

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Speaker 4: So these programs are tough on crime, but they're still compassionate, again,

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Speaker 4: a phrase we'll go back to pretty often. However, to

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Speaker 4: your point in all these programs are not without controversy.

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Speaker 4: Want to give a shout out to an adjacent show.

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Speaker 4: If you're interested in this idea of scaring kids straight

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Speaker 4: and what can go wrong, please check out Camp Hell.

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Speaker 4: It is a show in our network exploring the Anawaki

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Speaker 4: treatment Center for emotionally disturbed youth in Douglasville, Georgia. And

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Speaker 4: just like these SI boot camps, there's a troubling lack

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Speaker 4: of transparency and accountability in a lot of these programs.

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Speaker 2: And Annawaki or Camp Hell, that show hosted by Josh

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Speaker 2: than Is. It's a fascinating case because that place, that

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Speaker 2: physical rehabilitation camp out or wilderness camp as they called it,

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Speaker 2: has been around since the nineteen sixties, and it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: It was just kind of a thing that you could

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Speaker 2: send quote troubled youth to as part of sentencing that

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Speaker 2: was occurring in Georgia. People get sentenced there. It was

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Speaker 2: also happening. They had camps at Florida and a couple

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Speaker 2: other places New Mexico, and they these would be like

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Speaker 2: work camps basically where you would be put to hard

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Speaker 2: labor and then go, you know, sleep in a bunk somewhere.

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Speaker 2: In that case, just if you do end up going

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Speaker 2: down the route and listening to camp, there was a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of child sexual abuse and other stuff going

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Speaker 2: on at all of the camps. Actually they were run

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Speaker 2: by the people who ran in Awaki.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not a story that's appropriate for maybe the

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Speaker 3: kiddos in the crowd, but it is a story that

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Speaker 3: needs to be told, and we're proud that it's out

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Speaker 3: there in the world. And you know that illustrates another point, Matt.

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Speaker 3: Not all of these camps, these SI facilities are created equally.

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Speaker 3: Some are more therapeutic or rehabilitative. Others seem to focus

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Speaker 3: entirely on harsh physical exercise discipline, doing drills over and

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Speaker 3: over and over again, because you can't call them choreography

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Speaker 3: in the military. You have to call them drills, sort

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Speaker 3: of like how a G. I. Joe is an action

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Speaker 3: figure and not a doll anyway, So there are few dependable,

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Speaker 3: robust statistics on how we would measure a success rate,

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Speaker 3: how we would measure the effects of recidivism, how many

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Speaker 3: institutions are open, or the numbers of deaths that occur

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Speaker 3: at these facilities. That's right, deaths. Some are out in

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Speaker 3: the open and have been admitted. Some have been explained

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Speaker 3: away through nebulous things like undiagnosed medical condition or overdose.

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Speaker 3: Some are we maintain simply covered up. So what do

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Speaker 3: you say, guys, you want to take a word from

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Speaker 3: our sponsors and then dive in.

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Speaker 5: Sounds good.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. There are immensely troubling statistics

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Speaker 3: and there are tendencies to paint with a broad brush.

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Speaker 3: So to be quite clear, when we say first time

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Speaker 3: non violent offenders, yes, folks in the specific boot camps

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Speaker 3: are typically under the age of thirty. They're not all children.

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Speaker 3: And again, all these things are not created equally. So

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Speaker 3: for instance, you might spend a weekend in jail, right,

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Speaker 3: which is way different from being carted off to a

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Speaker 3: place for a summer, for sure. So why are these

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Speaker 3: statistics troubling when we talk about statistics.

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Speaker 2: Well, the statistics that I've been looking at for this

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Speaker 2: are really focused on recidivism. Right, So, if a first

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Speaker 2: time offender goes through this shock detention program shock incarceration,

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Speaker 2: do they have the same chance of returning back to

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Speaker 2: prison at some point as somebody who went through a

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Speaker 2: regular what they would call just being incarcerated. Right, That's

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Speaker 2: what everybody seems to be focused on. And as we

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Speaker 2: dive into some of the numbers here, we find that

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Speaker 2: the recidivism rates officially, at least in states like Missouri

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Speaker 2: a couple of other places, the rates are just a

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Speaker 2: tiny bit lower than regular old incarceration going to prison

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Speaker 2: for years.

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Speaker 4: Well, and the problem is it's it's just not particularly transparent.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there aren't any very robust statistics at all

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Speaker 4: about how many of these boot camps exist in.

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Speaker 5: The United States.

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Speaker 4: And this, to your point, Matt, is a function of

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Speaker 4: the kind of amorphous state by state legislation and paired

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Speaker 4: with the you know, kind of I don't know, not

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Speaker 4: particularly streamline federal version of the programs.

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Speaker 2: M and so if you jump to Missouri, they you can.

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Speaker 2: The New York University Law Review talked about this way

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Speaker 2: back in eight you guys, and they were looking at

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Speaker 2: recidivism rates at that time of the shock programs that

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Speaker 2: exist specifically for DWI offenders. And so they took DWI offenders,

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Speaker 2: which make up six point seven percent of all of

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Speaker 2: the quote offender population in Missouri, and when they looked

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Speaker 2: at the recidivism rates of all of those people in

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Speaker 2: that population, they found that a standard prison year term

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Speaker 2: four years, had roughly a thirty one percent recidivism rate,

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Speaker 2: but the one hundred and twenty day shock program had

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Speaker 2: about a twenty three point six percent recidivism rate, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, lowered by five percent roughly or something. Which

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Speaker 2: is that you know, is that statistically different?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean.

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Speaker 4: Statistics about incarceration and about you know, rehabilitation. I guess

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Speaker 4: the integration back into societies have seemed to me to

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Speaker 4: always struggle with, you know, truly being able to pull

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Speaker 4: out the reality of the situation out of those numbers,

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Speaker 4: just because of so many kind of intervening factors that

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Speaker 4: aren't a parent, that aren't kind of readily apparent I

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Speaker 4: don't know.

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Speaker 3: It just seems to me. No, yeah, yeah, I agree

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Speaker 3: with you know, like this sounds. Look, we're not casting

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Speaker 3: aspersion on whomever wrote the report in Missouri. The question

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Speaker 3: Matt you're having is is this statistically significant? And what

436
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 3: you're saying no, is yeah, it's difficult to tell because

437
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: of all those intervening variables. And this goes to our

438
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: further point that there are, like the headline word here

439
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: is overall there are no genuine statistics and metrics available

440
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: for these programs. Overall. You will find state by state stuff.

441
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 3: Missouri's one example. I've been very deep into the Florida

442
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 3: Horrors and New York state as well. They're like, you

443
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: can find examples of this everywhere, but what you cannot

444
00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 3: find is an overall robust, objective view of the forest.

445
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because it does not exist.

446
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 2: Oh, you're right. But one thing I wanted to bring

447
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: up with this, guys, is that that same study that

448
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: I was looking at, or a review, I suppose it

449
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: found that the recidivism rate of those who just received

450
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: probation and received no prison sentence had a recidivism rate

451
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: of around eighteen point four percent. So like that to me,

452
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: is significantly lower.

453
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 4: But the question then becomes too, is is that because

454
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 4: this was someone who made a single mistake and got

455
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 4: caught and it really spooked them, And that's sort of

456
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 4: the scenario. I mean, does that imply like low level

457
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 4: offenses in general are going to likely lead to a

458
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 4: lower recidivism, right, because it seems like there's.

459
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 5: A line, there's an endog to these I think kind

460
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 5: of actions.

461
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, I think it applies most apparently it

462
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: implies the importance of environment community. So if if someone

463
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 3: has some cannabis and they get too much cannabis or whatever,

464
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: because that's another state by state bag of badgers, and

465
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: they get locked up, then they are put in an

466
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,239
Speaker 3: environment that they are not accustomed to, right, and an

467
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: environment that prioritizes and rewards different things, things that are

468
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 3: not prioritized and rewarded in a civilian community. So I

469
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: would argue, if you have someone on probation instead of

470
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 3: in jail, they still are able to see their family,

471
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 3: They're still able to sleep safely at night, I'll say it,

472
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: They're able to stay a part of society, hold down

473
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 3: a job, sure, And this I think is a primary difference. Now,

474
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: obviously We're not saying everybody should get on probation other

475
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 3: than Luigi Mangioni. We do know a great deal of

476
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 3: people forced in these SI shock incarceration programs will tend

477
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: to be described as ethnic minorities in this country, and

478
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: it's important to remember, you know, we get a little

479
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 3: more US centric that i'd like on this show, but

480
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: it's important to remember that things like shock incarceration exist

481
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 3: the world round. They are in programs like this or

482
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: multiple countries, but the US in particular seems to there's

483
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: a question for you guys, why in like twenty ten,

484
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 3: some of the most recent stats we have, why in

485
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 3: twenty ten we're eighty percent of the inmates or enrollees

486
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: in these programs considered ethnic minorities. I think it's a

487
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: knock on result of the justice system targeting minorities in

488
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: the first place.

489
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 5: Absolutely, well, yeah, And it's also like.

490
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 4: It's a similar situation to maybe the way it once was,

491
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 4: and I'm not speaking to maybe there's been changes in

492
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 4: this and it seems like that's likely, but where like

493
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 4: the army was only an option for less privileged folks

494
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 4: or like, and that would ultimately some statistically speaking, boil

495
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 4: down to being identified as ethnic minorities, you know. I mean,

496
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 4: it's just it's an interesting conundrum because yeah.

497
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: And i'd like people, you know, I'm going to just

498
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: throw this pop up soapbox real quick. I would like

499
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 3: the Americans to start describing ourselves in terms of the

500
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: financial minority or the financial majority, because I think the

501
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: class war is real.

502
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 4: And I agree, And I only even bring in the

503
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 4: race element is because of the way the statistics work

504
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 4: and the way that these things are described, you know,

505
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 4: in these kinds of studies and in news soundbites. You know,

506
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 4: I mean, over the years especially, it seems like.

507
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 5: I'm with you.

508
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know, because you're right, it is. Yes,

509
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 4: it is a haves and have nots situation. And then

510
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 4: it's also about opportunity versus you know, lack of opportunity.

511
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you said, environment, right, Because people are people

512
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: all the world around. Is how their power systems treat

513
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: them that makes all the difference. I love that we're

514
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: talking history here because we need to understand how the

515
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 3: US got to this situation in the first place. As

516
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: we noted at the top, the modern version of these

517
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: programs begins in the nineteen eighties here in Georgia and

518
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 3: in Oklahoma. And it doesn't come from nothing. It comes

519
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: as a response to a crisis, very much an act

520
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: now situation. Yeah, one hundred percent. So when these programs

521
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: begin in the nineteen eighties, the authorities are at a

522
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 3: crossroads or at what George Bush would have called a

523
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 3: decision point. Due to the War on Crime, there's been

524
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 3: a phenomenal growth in the prison industry and a phenomenal

525
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: growth in the number of people getting convicted. So if

526
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: you are a if you are a court of law,

527
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: wherever you may be, your prison systems are severely overcrowded.

528
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 3: If you are pushing people toward probation, right, which to

529
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 3: that earlier point is an awesome intervention, then you're seeing

530
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: so many people assigned to probation that probation officers are

531
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 3: barely able to touch base, you know what I mean.

532
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: They're like, hey, here's a three minute phone call or whatever.

533
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and there are even versions of probation that

534
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: are unsupervised that basically just say, hey, if you get

535
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: in trouble again, it's jail time. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,

536
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: you're on probation. But you know, nobody's going to be

537
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: checking in on you.

538
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 3: Ever, Yeah, honor system probation. Just try not to be

539
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: a criminal for the next year.

540
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: Well, that's a thing, especially for younger for some of vendors.

541
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 3: Sure, especially if they have a good case of a

542
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 3: like a solid community, they seem to have supportive family structure,

543
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: things like that. There are a lot of there are

544
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 3: a lot of we call them intervening variables earlier, but

545
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 3: maybe we could call them soft variables because sometimes it

546
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 3: comes it comes down to the judge.

547
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 4: Well in their opinion, is there a statistic for supportive

548
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 4: mom and dad?

549
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 5: You know what I mean?

550
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 4: Like, how does that not really translate to to you know,

551
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 4: to this kind of the way is the way of

552
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: pie charting things out?

553
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, because back in the day it was

554
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: supposed to be like a nuclear family, and they treated

555
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: children or single parents as though they were inherently somehow inferior,

556
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 3: which could not be further from the truth.

557
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: Let's go to another thing we were talking about, guys.

558
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: So this concept of in the nineteen eighties, there's an

559
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: influx of prisoners, largely due to the War on drugs,

560
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 2: that thing that we've talked about many a time there,

561
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 2: especially under President Reagan's I was gonna say rain.

562
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, war on crime going all the way back to LBJs.

563
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly exactly. But this is the same time

564
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: that the private prison system gets really big, right, or

565
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: because it's the private prison system, I didn't realize it

566
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: goes back to California in the freaking eighteen hundreds. But

567
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: private prisons become a big deal because there's so many inmates,

568
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: people who are potential inmates, who are on their way

569
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: to prison, but there's no place to house them. So

570
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: then corporations come in and say, oh, well, we'll make

571
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 2: some money.

572
00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: Here, so we have we see there a financial incentive,

573
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: and it's one that haunts the United States in the

574
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: modern day. Right, A third party private entity comes along

575
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 3: and says, oh, you guys are looking kind of busy.

576
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: You know, we can we can help out with this

577
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: for a very reasonable percentage.

578
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 5: The not much different than the way prison contracts work.

579
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: It's one hundred percent exactly the way person contracts work. Yeah,

580
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 3: I agree with you. And so these authorities are saying,

581
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: how do we The language they use over and over

582
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: in the eighties is manage how do we manage offenders?

583
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: Do we send more people to prison and just you know,

584
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: keep throwing money into the coffers of private prison industries

585
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: and entities. Do we try to spend more money on

586
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 3: probation programs. Neither option, it turns out, is a good

587
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 3: fit for this ground swell of juvenile first time offenders

588
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 3: in particular. And we have to make another point. We're

589
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 3: talking off Mike about this. It's an ugly point people

590
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 3: don't always want to hear, but at this juncture, the

591
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 3: boffins and the eggheads and the DOJ folks realized that

592
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 3: many young offenders had parents who were or had been incarcerated,

593
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: and from there, from the perspective of researchers and authorities,

594
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 3: this prompts a great concern about what they would call

595
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 3: intergenerational criminality. So they're searching for new ways to get

596
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: in front of this right to stop what they see

597
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 3: as dangerous patterns over time, and they look at what

598
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 3: they would call intermediate sanctions. This is stuff like intensive

599
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 3: community supervision, right, hands on probation right or house arrest.

600
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 3: Did you guys ever know anyone on house arrest.

601
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 4: Never got to see one of those ankle bracelets?

602
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 5: Those are pretty cool.

603
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 4: The stuff of lore now I think, I mean, it's

604
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 4: very much real, But no, I never did know anybody directly.

605
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 4: I know people who have been through like halfway house

606
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: type systems or like mandatory you know, rehabilitation like for

607
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 4: you know, drug abuse and stuff like that, which they

608
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 4: probably get you know, paid like as contractors as well,

609
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: those types of facilities. Then that can also be a

610
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 4: term of one's release, as being spending a certain amount

611
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 4: of time in a you know, an environment like that.

612
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, residential community.

613
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 2: And a lot of these shock programs even have stuff

614
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 2: that is essentially rehabilitation programs built into them, right, especially

615
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: for again DWI offenders in some states. For it's not

616
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: perfect at all, my god, it's not perfect. Well we

617
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: can talk about that more, but those systems are in

618
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: there as a way. Again, it gets so muddy because

619
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: there are those kind of systems, those vocational systems that

620
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 2: we were talking about at the top of this right,

621
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: trying to help especially younger people or people who are

622
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: just who appear to be off the right path, get

623
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: them to a job, get them off drugs, get them

624
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: the help that they would receive in a place that

625
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: is not prison. But it's being done through the prison system.

626
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, the idea being that you don't hit day

627
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 3: ninety one and just get a Greyhound ticket off to

628
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: the wild yonder. You have some kind of infrastructure to

629
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 3: support and indeed guide you right toward assimilation, because a

630
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 3: lot of this is about assimilation into society. And so

631
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 3: at this time, at this juncture in the nineteen eighties,

632
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 3: out of all the stuff they're evaluating, the house arrest probation,

633
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 3: the like you said, NOL, the halfway house approaches, boot camps,

634
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 3: these SI programs, they take the lead because they're comparatively

635
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 3: inexpensive and the optics feel right for the time, I'll

636
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: say it once again, ostensibly compassionate, yet's still tough on crime, right,

637
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 3: And it's really feeding into that powerful trope that the

638
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 3: electorate loves, which is send this bad person to the military.

639
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 3: That will straighten them out. They'll learn discipline, they'll march

640
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: in time and in step. And the problem is sometimes

641
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: a thing can sound like a really good idea without

642
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 3: actually being a good idea at all. Georgia and Oklahoma,

643
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 3: oh man, they make so much news when they have

644
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 3: this stuff in the nineteen eighties.

645
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's teach these recidivous and responsibility make them valuable

646
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 4: members of the community. It's also like so sort of

647
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 4: a good pr move for the complaints or the criticism.

648
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 5: That there is no rehabilitation in prison. This is like

649
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 5: an answer to that, right.

650
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: No.

651
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 3: Look, see, we're actually teaching them values, We're teaching them how.

652
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 5: To work hard and all of that stuff.

653
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 3: On this episode of Doctor Phil, the drill instructor speaks

654
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 3: to bad Barbie or whatever.

655
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,479
Speaker 5: You mentioned it once at the top Bend.

656
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 4: But I guess a lot of these types of situations

657
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: were depicted on some of these daytime shows, and they

658
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 4: had these little recurring bits where they would send the

659
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 4: bad kids to the boot camp or military school and

660
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 4: then march them back out at the end, do the

661
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,479
Speaker 4: before and after kind of treatment, right.

662
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah, Yeah, you'll love to see it if

663
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: you're a TV producer. By nineteen ninety nine, multiple other

664
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 3: states are in the game. They're following the lead in

665
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 3: Georgia and Oklahoma. There are more than fifty boot camps established.

666
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 3: They house round a little more than four thousand, five

667
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 3: hundred juveniles specifically. That doesn't count all first time non

668
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 3: violent offenders. Again, some who maybe is maybe in their twenties.

669
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 3: That doesn't count the federal programs that are on the way.

670
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 3: It's just it's a little more than a decade in.

671
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: And the proponents are loving this. They argue there are

672
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: statistically significant reduction rates when it comes to recidivism, but

673
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: it's already an open secret that these places can be dangerous,

674
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 3: even deadly. So I suggest we take a pause for

675
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 3: a word from our sponsors and get into the abuse,

676
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: the controversies, the deaths.

677
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 4: And we're back, and we promised some examples of how

678
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 4: these types of programs can go horribly wrong despite the

679
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 4: on paper best intentions of it all and the optics

680
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 4: that we were talking about about, how no, look, this

681
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 4: is a great program that's helping, you know, rehabilitate people,

682
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 4: teach them skills, teach them discipline, and then reintegrate them

683
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 4: back in soocide and we're so good at it that

684
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 4: we can accomplish what would a normal prison sentence of

685
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 4: four years.

686
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 5: We're going to get that done in ninety days, you know.

687
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 3: And also, as a way of saying, this is better.

688
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 4: Than the alternative, long term incarceration is just yielding more

689
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 4: repeat offenders.

690
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 5: This is different.

691
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm laughing because when you said that, Noel,

692
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 3: I'm picturing a DOJ report called we're so good at this.

693
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, we did a good job.

694
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 3: We did a good job, five stars to us, So

695
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 3: you're you're absolutely nailing it. Man. These camps are based

696
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: on military tactics, and any of our friends, neighbors, fellow

697
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 3: conspiracy realists who have had the privilege of attending one

698
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: of our fine nations military intake programs, you know they're

699
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 3: designed to break you down, like they're not designed to

700
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 3: make you feel great about yourself on the first day.

701
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: These programs, these SI shock incarceration programs, aren't that different.

702
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: Anybody who's been to boot camp knows the first day

703
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 3: sucks by design. It sucks so hard. The drill instructors,

704
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 3: oh we don't call them guards, right, they're instructors. They

705
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 3: confront you as a as a first day inmate of

706
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 3: one of these SI programs. You're given rapid orders about

707
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 3: how you can speak, when you can speak, what are

708
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 3: the rules, how do you talk to the instructors? How

709
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 3: do you standard attention?

710
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 5: No you're doing that wrong.

711
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 3: No, you're doing that wrong. No, you're doing that Wrong's

712
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 3: it's a gish gallop kind of thing where they're just

713
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 3: yelling at you gallop. It's a rhetorical device, gish. It's

714
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 3: a rhetorical device that help you spot someone who is

715
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 3: bad at arguing or arguing in bad faith. Because it's

716
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 3: where it might be familiar to some opponents of the

717
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: current administration. It's where you say a bunch of crazy

718
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 3: shit and and you say so much that you try

719
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 3: to shock and awe just it's like using a flash

720
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 3: pod in Monster Hunter Wild. You know that it's got

721
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 3: what's going on. I don't know which way is up.

722
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 3: But it's designed in these SI programs, especially that first day,

723
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 3: it's designed so that you will mess up, so that

724
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: you will not be able to successfully get things correct.

725
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 3: And this is co ed stuff. Men will have their

726
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 3: head shaved, women will get, you know, a short military haircut,

727
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: and it is meant to intimidate you. It is meant

728
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 3: to frighten you, to scare you straight. The situation does

729
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 3: not improve as time passes. Do we want to talk

730
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: about like a typical day, so we get a sense

731
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: of what life is like for these folks in SI programs.

732
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're in one of the military versions of

733
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: these types of programs. You get up before dawn, you

734
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 2: get dressed, you clean your quarters, You march around, usually

735
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: as an exercise, but also as you know, the discipline stuff.

736
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: You spend several hours doing all kinds of other exercises

737
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 2: like calisthenics.

738
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, right, and I believe during breakfast there's

739
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 4: no talking aloud. There's some pretty specific guidelines around communicating

740
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 4: with fellow cadets.

741
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 5: I guess you could call them from there.

742
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 4: You got about six to eight hours of actual hard labor,

743
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 4: physical labor.

744
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like what people would experience at campaign awaki.

745
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: This is very similar like building things. You might go out,

746
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: you might be constructing. It's usually instructing something in camp

747
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 2: an Awakei's case, it was constructing something on the camp,

748
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 2: like around the lake, or something that will eventually be

749
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 2: used by all of your other fellow people.

750
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: Well that, yeah, that's weirdly enough, that's the positive end

751
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 3: of the spectrum. Public improvement or work that actually matters, right,

752
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 3: like cleaning state parks, or if you're ever driving on

753
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 3: a road in the US and you see people maybe

754
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 3: wearing the orange vest right picking up trash on the

755
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 3: side of the highway, spoiler, they're not always volunteers moved

756
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 3: by a sense of public good or the tragedy of

757
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: the commons. These would be called public improvements in state

758
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: parks and cleaning highways. On a negative note, this kind

759
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 3: of public improvement labor has been repeatedly cited as modern slavery.

760
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 3: It's a story for another day, And I propose we

761
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 3: do a future episode on inmate rights in America for sure.

762
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, it comes up plenty in terms of just

763
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 4: regular conversation around the prison system. We talked actually recently,

764
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 4: we talked about the fire fighting program there in California

765
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,399
Speaker 4: and how and we got some really excellent correspondents from

766
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 4: folks on the inside of that saying, yeah, this is

767
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 4: a positive thing. This can be a way of really

768
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 4: changing my life and turning you know, learning a thing

769
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 4: and contributing.

770
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 3: But then there's the flip side of it, which can

771
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: be yeah, sketch slavery. My favorite, I love you that

772
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 3: you mentioned that. No, h my favorite, My favorite piece

773
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 3: of correspondence we received from that is still our fellow

774
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: conspiracy realist who described himself as an exotic landscaper.

775
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 2: There you go, Yeah that one, Yeah, that was great. Well,

776
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: when we made Anna Waki, we talked to several folks

777
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: who who could not say more positive things about their

778
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: time at the camp and doing the hard labor, and

779
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: how it was the most positive thing they'd ever experienced

780
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: in their life because of where they came from. So

781
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: not exclusively because of where they came from, but because

782
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: they said it was a positive experience overall for them.

783
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: So it is one of those things like it sometimes

784
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: is both.

785
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it turns out that humans are individuals, so applying

786
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 3: the same brute force broadbrush tactics to people will not

787
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 3: yield the same results across the board. That's true. And

788
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 3: if we're following the day here, we'll fast forward. Like

789
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 3: we said, they're working until call it late afternoon. Late

790
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 3: afternoon comes, you are doing more exercises, drills, you're rehearsing

791
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: ceremonies because sometimes there's a graduation ceremony and your family's

792
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 3: invited to attend. And then again, like we said earlier,

793
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 3: you march in step to dinner. No conversation at dinner.

794
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 3: By the way, after you eat, a lot of places

795
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 3: will have the I keep saying, kids, I know that's

796
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 3: not the entirety of the demographic here. But a lot

797
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 3: of these folks are to they are teens. They attend,

798
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 3: if they go to a good one, they attend rehab

799
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 3: programs until about twenty one hundred and at that point

800
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 3: at nine pm Local. At that point they have a

801
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: brief period of time to do everything they can to

802
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 3: get ready for tomorrow. This is rinse and repeat, And

803
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 3: during all of these days they are quite possibly abused

804
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 3: for the entire time. Like the guards, we get to

805
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 3: notable cases. There's a great piece from a great series

806
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 3: of pieces by a journalist called Carrie Blakeinger. She writes

807
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 3: in particular about the Lakeview Shock Incarceration correctional facility there

808
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 3: in New York, and she writes a lot about shock

809
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 3: incarceration in New York State overall. And she has some

810
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 3: harrowing stuff when she's talking. When she's writing about c

811
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 3: there are saxby Smith's time in an SI facility. Maybe

812
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 3: we could just pull a few quotes to give people

813
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: the way of the land here.

814
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the guards are known as instructors, like you mentioned,

815
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 4: are known to be verbally abusive, at the very least

816
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 4: psychologically abusive, as Carrie Blankinger puts it, writing about Miss

817
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 4: Saxby Smith's time and the lake Viewshock Incarceration Correctional Facility

818
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 4: for NBC. Guards taunted prisoners, calling them junkies and bad mothers,

819
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 4: and made prisoners wear embarrassing signs. See there's the humiliation stuff.

820
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 4: Comes in and eat food off the floor. What is

821
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 4: this guantanamo? Sometimes prisoners spent hours moving log piles or

822
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 4: cleaning sidewalks with toothbrushes full little jackets.

823
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's pause there, because this is the psyop aspect

824
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 3: of it. When you make people, when you force people

825
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 3: to labor, and you force them to do so with

826
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 3: the clear recognition that what they are doing does not

827
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 3: matter and is meaningless and useless. This is a time

828
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 3: tested torture tactic.

829
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 5: No question about it. And she goes on.

830
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 4: Once Saxby Smith said, a woman got caught passing a note,

831
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 4: so guards made her whole dorm walk in circles holding

832
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 4: mattresses on their heads for ten hours until their scalps bled.

833
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 5: Let that sink in. Just the humiliation of all of

834
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 5: this is what strikes me.

835
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 4: This is like some sadistic hazing type stuff, not just

836
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 4: traditional military drills. And we know mazing occurs in the military,

837
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 4: but this seems like out in the open.

838
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 5: I don't know.

839
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it just I wanna bore us with personal

840
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 3: anecdotes because it's incredibly dangerous and damaging to engage in

841
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 3: that tactic, useless work, useless force labor. It's it's a

842
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 3: thing that still happens. And to your point, Noel, it

843
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 3: is part it can be part of military hazing. Uh,

844
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 3: it can be part of all sorts of organizations. And this,

845
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 3: as you were saying, this does not sound rehabilitative. This

846
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 3: does not sound like someone sitting down and saying I'm

847
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 3: gonna give you some tough love to help you get

848
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 3: on you know, the quote unquote right path. This is

849
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 3: pretty beat me here, Andrew, this is pretty evil, is

850
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 3: it not?

851
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 5: I would say it very much is apologies.

852
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 3: I sound like I'm yelling.

853
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: Man.

854
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,240
Speaker 5: Sorry, Yeah, I mean it's wild.

855
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 4: This is a Marquis de Sade level, Like what is

856
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 4: that film Solo where there's a certain it's apparently not

857
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 4: for the faint of heart. I actually haven't seen it,

858
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 4: but it is a Passolini film that depicts a very

859
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 4: military like, kind of regimented form of absolute humiliation and abuse.

860
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 3: It sounds like this, it's just a boring, it's unclean, it's.

861
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 2: It sounds like a messed up individual or several individuals

862
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 2: who are power hungry who are operating at that one facility.

863
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 2: That's what sounds like to me, and it makes me

864
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 2: wonder how much of that goes on? Are there other

865
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: instances of stuff like this happening?

866
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 5: Are the right?

867
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 3: Sorry, I mean no, no, I think I think that's

868
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 3: a good I think that's a good step back toward

869
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 3: a middle ground, right, because it may not be the

870
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 3: it may not. We're not saying everybody involved in this

871
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 3: stuff is a villain, obviously, and we hope that as

872
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 3: a parent. But to that point about bad faith actors

873
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 3: finding an environment where they can successfully function as predators.

874
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 3: You see that in religion, You of course see that

875
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 3: in government, you see that in you see that in

876
00:54:59,239 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 3: friend groups, right.

877
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 2: I mean, we talked about so many different versions of

878
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: that where people find their way in where especially if

879
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 2: they're young, people that are vulnerable, those individuals will make

880
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 2: their way.

881
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 3: Rehab facilities another great example. And so that's why I

882
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 3: think it's quite important that we pointed out the necessity

883
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 3: of metrics or robust studies, which don't really exist for

884
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 3: a lot of this stuff. And when we're talking about

885
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 3: these cases, even people who say it changed their life

886
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 3: for the better, they do recall exactly what you are describing.

887
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 3: No name calling, humiliation, emotional up to physical abuse by

888
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 3: correction staff. And by physical abuse, yes, we mean some

889
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 3: of the worst stuff you can imagine happening to a person,

890
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 3: acts that would be considered violent crimes on the outside.

891
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 3: Just to snapshot New York State alone, in twenty thirteen,

892
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 3: there were reports of sexual assault carried out by one

893
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 3: of the instructors. Right, no, we call them instructors right now, charge, Okay, okay, Yeah.

894
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 3: This triggered a series of sexual abuse allegations across not

895
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 3: just Lakeview, but the entirety of New York State. Fast

896
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 3: forward twenty seventeen. An officer there at Lakeview, James Bean Junior,

897
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 3: is charged with the sexual assault of an inmate at

898
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 3: the facility, and the allegations keep coming as recently as

899
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 3: twenty twenty.

900
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 5: That's right.

901
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 4: A federal law suit against Lakeview cited five separate incidents

902
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 4: in which a female inmate was sexually assaulted and a

903
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 4: correction officer attempted to cover the whole thing up, hide

904
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 4: all evidence. That the attack took place, and in multiple

905
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 4: cases this behavior exhibited by instructors or guards seemed to

906
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 4: have add to actual deaths of.

907
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 3: Inmates that were, you know, incarcerated in these programs. Yeah,

908
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 3: Jamel McIntosh was assigned to lake View's intensive alcohol and

909
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 3: substance abuse treatment program, found dead in his cell in

910
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 3: twenty twenty. The case continues, and this occurred after the

911
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 3: infamous case of Martin Lee Anderson. This is a kid.

912
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 3: That is why the kid part is important to us here.

913
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 3: This is a fourteen year old from Florida dies while

914
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 3: incarcerated in Panama City, Florida at the Bay County Boots Camp.

915
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 3: The death of Martin Lee Anderson create a like moves

916
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 3: public sentiment. The public used to be for these things,

917
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 3: Now they're increasingly against it because children are dying there, right,

918
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 3: and there are not many things a fourteen year old

919
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 3: should or can do that would qualify them to be

920
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 3: murdered by the state, agreed for sure. And this, I mean,

921
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 3: there's so much more. Each of those is an episode

922
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 3: on its own, But maybe we talked about the implications

923
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:17,919
Speaker 3: and the future as we wrap up this EFT.

924
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, let's quickly talk about when this gets instituted

925
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 2: as part of sentencing. Because there's some weird I don't

926
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 2: know why. My search history is all about Missouri. I

927
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 2: found most of the cases that I could find, like

928
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 2: specific cases where shocked detention was used coming out of Missouri.

929
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 2: For some reason, I have no idea why. But here

930
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 2: are a bunch of examples. A forty two year old

931
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 2: woman that was she pled guilty to two different assault charges,

932
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 2: and she was sentenced to one hundred and twenty days

933
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 2: of shock detention. And this takes place in a prisons

934
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 2: so like in a Coal county jail there in Missouri.

935
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 2: So it's just a whole it's a whole different system

936
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 2: I think they have in Missouri. I don't know if

937
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: they send people to a specific place like Lakeview like these,

938
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 2: but they do appear to, at least during sentencing, to

939
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 2: be sent to a county jail. There's another person, a

940
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 2: forty year old man who broke parole and he got

941
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 2: sentenced to one hundred and twenty days of shock incarceration

942
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 2: there in Missouri in Sheridan County, so undred and twenty days.

943
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 2: And then you've got a child who was texting and

944
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 2: driving she caused a fatal crash killed a woman driving

945
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: her car while her grandchild was in the back, and

946
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: she spent She officially got sentenced to two days of

947
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,479
Speaker 2: shock time in a jail, which, again, like I don't

948
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 2: understand how that works. I don't understand why it's so different.

949
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 2: But there is one major notable case that I think

950
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 2: we should talk about because how does shock and car

951
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 2: ration actually help this situation. You can do a quick

952
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 2: Google search if you're you know, if you're able to

953
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: right now for Phi Gamma Delta. This is a fraternity

954
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 2: at the University of Missouri. They have chapters all over

955
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 2: the place, but the specific one at the University of

956
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 2: Missouri was doing some hazing as they do. As they

957
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 2: had a new group of people who were pledging to

958
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 2: come in. And this young man, Danny Santouli that's how

959
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: you say his name. He was nineteen years old. The

960
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: frat guys there who were in charge of that specific fraternity,

961
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 2: Fi Gamma Delta, instituted a thing where everybody had to

962
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 2: drink as much alcohol as they could. Danny drank a

963
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 2: whole bunch. He got alcohol poisoning, passed out, and then

964
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: stopped breathing while he was there after fraternity, somebody calls

965
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 2: nine to one one, he gets picked up. He's undergoing

966
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,439
Speaker 2: cardiac arrest on his way to the hospital, gets there,

967
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 2: he ends up having severe brain damage. He loses the

968
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 2: ability to walk and talk and is forever you know.

969
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 2: Oh and also he loses sight because of this alcohol poisoning.

970
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: So the reason why I'm bringing up is because the

971
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 2: sentencing that was twenty twenty one, by the way, when

972
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 2: that happened, the sentencing for the kids, I mean they're

973
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 2: mostly kids or very young men, right, who are there

974
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 2: at this fraternity doing this hazing. Many of them they

975
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 2: got plea deals, several of them for fifteen days in jail,

976
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,479
Speaker 2: at least one for thirty days in jail. But again

977
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 2: it's through these shock detention programs, so it's not just

978
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 2: going to jail for thirty days. It's whatever this shock

979
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 2: treatment program is. But how does that fix these fraternity

980
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 2: brothers who just made a bunch of other mostly young

981
01:01:56,120 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 2: men their age, to drink a bunch I guess just

982
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 2: it's it. It's a weird gray area to me, I

983
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 2: don't understand how it actually helps.

984
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 4: No, it's for kicks sick twisted kicks man that's what

985
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 4: it feels to me. Gosh, like, that's there's no excuse

986
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 4: for any that's just there's no world in which that

987
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 4: is going to yield positive results. Can you imagine too,

988
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 4: if these people were, like, you know, predisposed or even

989
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 4: had struggled with substance abuse addiction problems.

990
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so cruel.

991
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 3: I just can't. I mean, yeah, I think it. Just

992
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,919
Speaker 3: to interject here, one of the things that that really

993
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 3: sticks out here is the question of who does it help?

994
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 3: And that's really where the conspiracy hinges on. Is it

995
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 3: meant to help the public? Is it meant to help

996
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 3: the the inmates or the people who are even Oh,

997
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 3: by the way, we didn't mention this. In a lot

998
01:02:56,120 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 3: of these places, folks who need psychological medication or even

999
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 3: just basic physical medication for diabetes or whatnot are denied

1000
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 3: that medication. That's a known problem in the system. If

1001
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 3: we were to look at the money and ask ourselves,

1002
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 3: qui bono, who benefits, then we would see that the

1003
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 3: people who tend to benefit the most are the politicians

1004
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 3: pushing for these programs because they're fantastic for reelection, or

1005
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 3: they were up until about two thousand oh.

1006
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, well and just dude, yes, absolutely, Just

1007
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 2: to put a tiny bit more context on that fraternity case,

1008
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 2: most of the things that people were being charged for

1009
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 2: were misdemeanors, which hold a maximum of thirty days in

1010
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 2: the shock incarceration for a misdemeanor. So it does make

1011
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: me wonder just about like, thirty days in jail for

1012
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 2: a misdemeanor. Doesn't that feel I don't know. I don't

1013
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 2: know if that feels like much like too much or not.

1014
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 2: I honestly don't know.

1015
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 3: It's a long month, man, it feels like it to me, especially.

1016
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 2: If they're undergoing the stuff that we're talking about that

1017
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: goes on a lakeview, right.

1018
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and multiple other places. While this practice has been

1019
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 3: newly re examined, we know that multiple states have pulled

1020
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 3: away from advocating for shock incarceration. The research that exists

1021
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 3: simply does not support the notion that shock programs work measurably,

1022
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 3: predictably better than, as we said earlier, regular prison. Instead,

1023
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 3: studies show the combative style of counseling that these programs

1024
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 3: rely on is pretty ineffective. It reminds me of the

1025
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 3: great in a way. It reminds me of that great

1026
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 3: controversy where a psychological patient died while they were trying

1027
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 3: to like reenact their birth. Yeah, you know about where

1028
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 3: they like hold you down under a blanket and you

1029
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 3: have to struggle to be born. Is that is that's

1030
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 3: the sort of team building exercise.

1031
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 5: What is that about?

1032
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 3: Well, a result in the death of someone. We'll follow up.

1033
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 3: We'll follow up in the next episode just to just

1034
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 3: to cite that specifically. But this, this is the thing.

1035
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 3: It's still it's based on troops. Right, We're gonna scare

1036
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 3: you straight, We're gonna put you in the military, give

1037
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 3: you some structure. Troops are powerful, and it does sound

1038
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 3: great for reelection campaigns, but in this case, it appears

1039
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 3: being tough on crime all too often means an excuse

1040
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 3: to be a monster that feels like the stuff they

1041
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 3: don't want you to know. We want to hear your opinions.

1042
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 3: We've endeavored to be very fair and fact based in

1043
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 3: our exploration here, so please do tell us what's on

1044
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 3: your mind. Find us on the phone, find us via email,

1045
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 3: find us on the lines. It's right.

1046
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 4: You can find us at the handle conspiracy Stuff, where

1047
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 4: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group. Here's where

1048
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 4: it gets crazy on XFKA, Twitter and on YouTube where

1049
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 4: we have video content Glora for you to enjoy. On

1050
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 4: Instagram and TikTok. However, we're Conspiracy Stuff show and there's more.

1051
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1052
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. It's a voicemail system. When you call in,

1053
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

1054
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air. Guys,

1055
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 2: really quickly before I jump off here, there's one thing

1056
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 2: I forgot to mention about the whole Danny situation. There's

1057
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 2: a new bill in Missouri called Danny's Law, and the

1058
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 2: father of Danny just spoke at the Missouri State House

1059
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 2: of Representatives to push for this Danny's Law. It's really interesting.

1060
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 2: I think you'll like it. Let us know what you think.

1061
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 2: Maybe it is. The concept is to protect anyone who

1062
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 2: is in a situation who then calls nine to one

1063
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 2: one to get assistance for somebody, especially in a hazing situation.

1064
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 2: It protects the person who finally raises a hand and says, hey,

1065
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 2: something wrong, something's going wrong here.

1066
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 3: So similar to like a Good Samaritan law.

1067
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 2: Very similar. I think it's specifically for university hazing and

1068
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Anyway, give us a call, Tell

1069
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 2: tell us what you think. Maybe you don't want to

1070
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 2: give us a call, Maybe you want to send us

1071
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 2: a good old fashioned email.

1072
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1073
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void

1074
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:32,720
Speaker 3: writes back, isn't that right? Doctor? Astrologize? Who are we

1075
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 3: talking to? What are we talking about? Will we talk

1076
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 3: to you? There's one way to find out. Join us

1077
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 3: here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1078
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1079
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1080
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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.