WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How Grief Works 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.520 Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's s 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:08.160 Y s K Selects, I've chosen How Grief Works. It's 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:12.360 an episode from April of two thirt and it covers 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.720 everything you ever wanted to know about grief, like, um, 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:19.320 do animals grieve? Of course they do, don't be ridiculous. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.840 And if you happen to be grieving right now, I 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:28.680 hope this episode helps, So sit back and enjoy or 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:33.479 whatever you might do with it. Welcome to Stuff you 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:40.600 Should Know from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.519 welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.320 Chuck Bryant that makes the Stuff you Should Know the 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:51.000 podcast Good Grief. Yes, good Grief. I looked that up. 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.640 Would you come up with? Well, it just struck me 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:55.600 at you know, because Charlie Brown says it, you know, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:57.920 and that's where I know it from. Then I thought, 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.320 why would where did that come from? Because from one 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.080 of those things, and it's just apparently they think it's 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.000 just what's called a minced oath, like when you substitute 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.240 God for good gravy or good google ees or I 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.600 got you googly moogly, googly moogly. But then I thought 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.240 grief was weird because that's such a specific thing. But 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.080 then good gracious gracious is very specific too, and like 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:22.720 ill fitting. So I guess it's just a minced oath 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.640 good grief. Well, maybe good gracious came from good grace 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:31.399 and somebody's like just feeling a little buzzed on schnops 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:37.920 and they added gracious instead. Maybe, so minced oaths good gravy. 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.720 That's good. It's probably the funniest thing that will happen 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.639 in this show. Hopefully that wasn't even that funny. Yeah, 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.760 but this one's not supposed to be funny. It's about grief, 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.800 you know. Yeah, And um, I think we should point 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:54.520 out from the get go that this is about grief, 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.640 human grief, Western human grief. Yeah, but that's not to 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.520 say that there aren't different types of grief and that 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:03.520 humans are the only ones who do grieve. In fact, 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.320 I have a story for you animal action too, So 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.920 what will you do? That was the funniest thing in 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:15.320 this episode? Uh. This story took place back in the 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:22.360 spring of in um Uttar Pradesh State, India, specifically in 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.400 the town of luck Now and even more specifically at 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.400 the Prince of Wales Zoo, there was a seventy two 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:34.160 year old elephant, female elephant named Dominie, and Domini was 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.680 hanging out in her little house at the Prince of 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:38.360 Wales Zoo when all of a sudden she got a 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:44.799 younger pregnant friend delivered to her um named Chumpacali. And 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.919 Chumpacali was, as I said, pregnant. She was actually on 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:50.920 maternity leave from her regular gig where she would just 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.359 let tourists ride on her back. Okay, all right, um, 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.240 and so she was she was taking to the Prince 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.880 of Wales Zoo to to basically just have a nice, 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:03.080 comfortable term and then give birth. And Domini just fell 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.480 in love with chompa collie. This is so sad already, 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:12.080 so um. She basically became a maternal figure Chumpacali. They 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:16.000 were best friends. Um. Chumpacali would lay around and um 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.760 Domini would stroke her pregnant belly with her trunk. They 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.440 just got really really tight, which is very normal in 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:27.440 in um the elephant world. Um. So you can almost 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:32.880 imagine that Domini was growing excited as Chumpacali got closer 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.240 and closer to her due date and when finally she 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:40.240 did um go into labor. Champacali died during childbirth and 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:44.280 gave birth to a stillborn calf, and Dominie, I guess 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.160 they let her come in and like, you know, hang 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.720 around the body because elephants are known to grieve well, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.440 even as far as elephants go, Dominie stories a little. 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.080 That's pretty bad. She um. She cried over the body 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.640 for a while and then went over to her enclosure 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:04.040 and just stood still for a week. Right, you're killing 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:08.000 me after the week, um she During this week, she 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.880 she stopped eating. Um. She got to the point where 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:16.479 her legs swelled from basically starvation and dehydration until she 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.760 fell over. And then she just laid there for what 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.200 turned out to be the rest of her life, where 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.559 she wept and refused to eat and refused to drink 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.200 and grieved over the death of her friend, and finally 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:33.200 died herself a few days later. Uh and the vets 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.640 tried to keep her alive. They um, they did what 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.880 they could, but they said in the end, Um, in 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:44.880 the face of Domini's intense grief, all her treatment failed. No, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.159 they're buried next to one another. I had a dog 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.880 situation like that, similar when I was a kid, one 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:52.560 of my dogs died and they were best buds, and 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.200 the other one just like it was never the same 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.360 and died about three months later and seemed healthy at 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.520 the time. And I went out and laid down the 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:07.880 doghouse and cried when I was like seven, devastating. That's 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.400 a wonderful thing to do. That's working out your grief, 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.159 you know. Yeah, But as far as the animals go, 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:17.360 it really is pretty evenly divided among scientists who say, yes, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.479 they show all the signs of grieving and that's what 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.280 they're doing, and then others that say, no, they are 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:26.640 not grieving. We're putting that on them as humans. Yeah, 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.159 that's I totally disagree with that. Yeah, it's just you know, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.360 it's really two camps um. So we've talked about before. Yeah, 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.520 we've run up against this before, and I don't think 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.599 either one of us have changed our positions at all. 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.160 I think they grieve. But then you hear like this 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.960 one great ape you know, was famous recently for carrying 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:49.640 her little dead baby around for like three days, and 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.000 other scientists came out and said, like, you know, this 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.200 is a long gestation period they have. Singleton's having a 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.760 kid is a big deal. And so she's carrying this 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.640 baby around and hopes it it will come back to life, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.760 and it's like in a comatose state, and you know, 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:09.480 it's a practical, adaptive, evolutionary thing that's happening. It's not grief. 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.919 And then I think you're heartless, right, Yeah, they're grieving 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.719 because they they took the baby chimp and made a 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:22.120 purse out of it. After that. Well, but then for animals, 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:23.800 I don't want to get two sidetrack, but you have 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.560 to think, like when some clearly show signs of what 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.719 looks like grief and some don't at all, Like the 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:33.760 chimpanzee and the same you know arena, like they eat 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.760 other chimpanzees while they're still alive and screaming. Well, those 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.560 are the ones that back talk, or they go off 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.440 to die by themselves and there's no grieving, or they 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.360 will make like if one of them is dying, that 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:48.400 will like kill them. Right, But imagine, imagine you're an 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:55.080 outside observer of the human species. We we lose chemical 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.880 weapons on one another, and yet we still have funeral practices. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.560 I mean, it's it's interesting. I wonder why certain animals 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.039 do and certain, don't you know, it's very interesting. Well, 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.560 getting back to um humans the human realm of grief, 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.480 there was a man who recently um was married to 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.080 his wife for sixty two years and she died and 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.120 on the way to her funeral, he died in the 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:24.640 back of the limousine and um, yeah, which I thought 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:30.240 was incredibly sweet. And then his his daughters they died 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.920 at the funeral. No, no no, they they put a sign up. 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.600 They decided to just have a double funeral and they 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.840 put a sign up at the wake that said surprise, 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.680 it's a double header and then buried him next to 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.320 her like that that day. Well, I guess their family 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.480 has a good sense of humor relates. But the point 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.040 is is, yeah, that is that that's a that's they 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.160 used a sense of humor to grief or else they 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.000 weren't going through grief. And the point of that whole 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:58.239 thing is is that there's no set way that grief works, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.200 which is great because we can say just about anything 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:05.080 here and still being the right because psychology is still 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:10.760 grappling to define the process of grief. And some very 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.600 recent studies that you found show that grief is not 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.440 present and everyone and that everyone deals with it very differently, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:24.000 and there's not really any specific way to handle it. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.600 There's just some great general guidelines and that we should 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.680 say grief is a very personal thing. Yeah, and I 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:35.480 myself have experienced the spectrum of grief in my life, 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.960 like including you know, like family members passing away. Not 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.800 to be too cold, but some are you know, you 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.000 super grief for and some it's like, well, you know, 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.080 they were very old and they had a great life 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.360 and we saw this coming, and that's one of the 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.360 things that you know, it's one of the types of grief. 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.360 Anticipatory grief, they say, is probably easier because you're working 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.640 that stuff out over time and it's nothing like an 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:05.720 accident or a child dying. Unanticipated grief well, completely different, Yeah, 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.520 it is, so you So you mentioned anticipatory grief. That's 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.960 like if somebody's got a prolonged illness or something like that, 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:15.440 you have the chance to say goodbye ahead of time, 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.200 maybe deal with these emotions exactly, and then once death 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.560 actually comes, you've been prepared for this for days, weeks, months, right, Yeah, 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:24.880 and a lot of times something maybe there isn't any 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.679 quote unquote traditional grief going on at all because you're 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.640 just so prepared and it's just a matter of executing 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:32.360 all the things that you need to do if you're 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.160 the person that's in charge of that kind of like 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:36.160 you're so prepared you blow off the funeral to go 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.240 the grocery store. About that, Um, it's like a serial killer. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:45.760 Psychologists call that kind of grief anticipatory grief basically the 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:50.400 money grief because it's it's about is um as light 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:56.920 as you can get post grief post death? I should say, right, yes, um, 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.200 And then again I want to say, like there's there's 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:03.240 probably a listener out there who like help their their 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.840 husband or their mother through a long bout of cancer 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.600 that the person finally succumbed to. That's like, that's absolutely untrue. 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.080 I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like there again, there's no 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.480 specific um, Like, no one can tell you what your 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.360 grief was. Again, it's personal. This is just these are 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:29.320 very broad strokes. So okay, then, like you mentioned unanticipated grief, right, yeah, 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.840 I meant that's from my experience. I had a friend 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.400 that fell off a building and died, and that's like 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:39.520 definitely the hardest someone young an accident and uh, but 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.520 still if you want to talk about five stages. I don't. 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.240 I'm not a big believer that that's the case because 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.320 I didn't experience all these stages at all. Um. But 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.080 again it varies. Someone might experience tense stages. It does. 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:54.800 But but the point is with unanticipated grief like you 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:58.000 couldn't have you or your friend didn't wake up that morning, 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:02.280 like he was gonna die, but he still died, and 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.319 you have to deal with it all of a sudden um. 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.920 And then there's ambiguous grief, which for my money, is 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.000 probably the worst kind of grief. This is the kind 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.400 of grief that comes where, say, if you have a 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.480 loved one who is kidnapped and you never hear from 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.000 them again, or ever felt that one your parents abandoned 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:23.720 you as a child, um or just something happens is 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.200 somebody and there's no real resolution or closure or you know, 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.920 it doesn't have to be even death. It can be 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.280 like your girlfriend you come home to a note on 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.079 your bed you never hear from her again, or a wife. 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.120 I guess, yeah, because I guess we should also say, 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.079 like grief doesn't just have to come from death. Grief 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:45.480 is basically the deep and poignant distress caused by bereavement, 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.560 and bereavement is the state of being deprived of something 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.959 or someone, so that could be through to death whatever. 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.760 Yeah exactly. Um, but yeah, so those are the three 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.679 types of normal grief just off the top of our heads. 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.480 We made those up right, Um, and you mentioned the 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.360 different kinds of Um, they're the different stages of grief 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.720 and you, I mean, that's just such like a pop 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:15.480 trope these days, but it was actually new just as 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.280 recently as a nineteen sixty nine when Dr Elizabeth Coogler 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.360 Ross came up with the five stages of grief that 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.000 you always hear about today that any ten year old 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.959 could probably recite to you. But I have since been 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.840 kind of deconstructed and change in question and challenge. But 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.640 these are the kind of the road map to go 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:40.199 through grief, right, Um, Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Right. 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.920 And denial is just basically saying this is you're you're 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.400 not true that there's still alive, Like what you say 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.679 is a lie, And I don't want to be anywhere 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:51.920 near you because you're lying to me right now about 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.520 something very horrible. Yeah, I've never experienced that, even with 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.640 my friend who fell off a building. Like that's as 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.800 sudden news as you can get over the phone. And 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:01.840 I'm just not the kind of person who's like, no, 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.200 that didn't happen. I was like, man, it immediately hit 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.000 me that that had happened, you know, And I started 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.480 from there, I guess. But I didn't experience anger either. 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.080 But you know, if it might have been my brother, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.719 I might have experienced anger. You You raise a very 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.480 good point. There's different there's different Um, I guess, risk factors. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.160 There's different elements to grief, and some of it is personal. 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.120 Some of it has to do with how close you 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.679 are to the person. Sure, Um, some of it has 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:32.360 to do with the type of person you are. You're 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.880 a pretty resilient person. If you were a very sensitive, 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.280 bookish type, you might have taken it a little harder, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.760 you know what I mean. Um, you have a very 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:47.920 very very strong, tight support group, you do. Yeah, So, UM, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.920 I would say that that that probably helped quite a bit. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:52.920 I'm sure you had a group of friends that like 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:54.760 helped you through that, that were probably friends with the 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.960 kid too, So you went through it as a group. Yeah, 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.120 going through something alone is always hard, even if you 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.120 think you're a loner and don't want to be around anyone, 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.120 you're probably not doing yourself any favorite. Uh. And then lastly, 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.080 you had prior experience with grief. You're throwing yourself down 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.959 in the doghouse when you were seven, so you had 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.920 that experience to draw upon and to know you can 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:16.640 make it through it. It does get better, it does 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:20.520 go away. Yeah, So you're gonna have the hardest normal 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.440 kind of grief if you are, like you said, a 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.000 loner with no support group, if this is the first 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.240 time you've ever experienced grief, if you're the sensitive, bookish type, 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:34.640 and um, if you were extraordinarily close to somebody, right, yeah, totally. 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.480 In fact, I used to do acting exercises in college. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.360 What took this acting class? And believe it or not, 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.080 I took one acting class and I was not very 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.560 good at it. And that he used to tell us 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.840 to try and do like crying exercises and stuff. So 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:51.600 what do you think of my brother? Was always to 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.040 go to like imagine my brother had gotten killed or something. 0:14:54.080 --> 0:15:00.440 I would just like boom, yeah myself, I if I 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.680 thought of your brother dying, I'm just kidding about the 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:10.720 other family members all right, so anger, that's the second one. Yes, 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:15.000 it is pretty self explained to her. Um bargaining. It 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:20.400 fascinates me, like the idea that that you I feel 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.840 like you're suddenly in a position to make a deal 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.320 with God to reverse the circumstances or bring the person 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.160 back or take away the pain. That's just so crazy. 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.239 And it's it's you know, like you think of somebody 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.080 bargaining with God or some higher power and they're like 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.720 looking up talking to the ceiling or the sky, and 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.240 that that is one of the normal stages of grief. 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.080 That's I just find that fast. I did that when 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.960 I was young with girls. Oh yeah, well I was 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.640 heavy into church, very emotional kid and girls like you know, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.080 it was one of those deals like God, I just please, 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:57.800 if you would just come back to me, I promise, 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.000 I'll do this, and i'll do that, I'll clean behind 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.640 my ears. I grew out of that pretty quick because 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.440 I realized, to make any different, that girl is either 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.400 coming back or she was hitting the road exactly. And 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.760 God probably had little if anything to do with that, 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.720 that's right, he was dealing with bigger problems. Um. After 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.800 that's depression, and this one is kind of tricky. Um, 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.200 if you if you go through the stage of depression, 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:27.040 if you do, it's not necessarily requisite. Um, they're starting 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:31.680 to wonder if possibly you're already depressed, and uh, if 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:33.880 you were already depressed, that probably means you're going to 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.320 maybe get stuck in the stage for a while, or 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.760 you might go through a depressed stage and then come 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.400 out of it. It's not necessarily But the problem with 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.560 this stage is that depression is a recognized mental disorder 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:53.480 and grief is not considered a mental disorder. And yet 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.200 in one of these five widely accepted stages, you go 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:02.560 through a period where you're you have a mental disorder. Yeah, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.000 but it's part of a normal process. And you know, 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.800 that's basically like taking psychologists and throwing them into the 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.800 thunder dome, you know, greasing them up with chicken fat 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.440 and handing them battle axes and saying like, explain that. 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.680 You know, that's the funniest thing said in this podcast. Uh. 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.639 The last one is acceptance, of course, Um, when you 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.040 are finally able to move on And UM, I found 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.960 that one fairly interesting article where they they charted this 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.680 and they said it would look like a w is that, right, 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.080 like the high points and the low points. Yeah, which 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.240 I guess some denials a high point and then it 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:44.399 goes down to um anger. Yeah, up to bargaining. I 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.520 guess if you feel like that's getting you somewhere, maybe 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.560 it's an up. Maybe maybe um At the very least 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.080 it's manic. I would think, back down to depression and 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:58.119 then finishing the W with a nice bit of acceptance. Yeah. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.080 And they've, as you said that, we've sort of been 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:02.879 studying this for like thirty or forty years, and there 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.280 was always that five stages thing, but recently they're looking 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.560 more into it, and they've done some studies with widowers 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.480 and widows, and they found that they really oscillate wildly 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.159 from day to day, and it's not necessarily going to 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.680 be a W. It's I felt great today and really 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.840 my spirits were up and I was even laughing. Then 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:21.320 the next day they were really sad. And it just 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.880 really is all over the map, right, But I think overall, 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.680 what they're finding is that on a long enough arc, 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.560 people emerge from it. And it seems to be somewhere 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.680 on the order of six months to three years. Yeah, 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.400 seems to be And I think that's the outliers are 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.199 maybe six months to three years. That's such a ridiculous 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.199 time frame. But the bolt but I mean like if 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.120 you study enough people, you can't probably create like makeup 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.960 like three months to five years, you know, no totally 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.360 and then say anyone else as an outlier. Right, But 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.000 that's the thing, like you can't. That's why everybody is 0:18:55.160 --> 0:19:02.360 very wisely. Um they avoid aid saying things like that 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.159 like this is this is like it's almost respect for 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.000 the process. Like no one wants to come out and 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.720 say no, this is how it is, Yeah, because you can't, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:11.760 and that's a mean thing to do. And actually there's 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.760 there's um the grief is is in danger of being 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.240 medicalized in the d s M five. One of the proposals, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.760 there's a there's always been an exemption to bereavement with 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:27.160 depression like a depression UM diagnosis. If the person has 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.879 recently gone through the process of grief or is in 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.600 the process of grief, Um, you can't diagnose them with depression. 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.320 You can, but you're not gonna get reimbursed for any 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.120 meds you prescribed them. Well, under the d s M five, 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.680 they're taking away this bereavement exclusion so that doctors can 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:50.240 get reimbursed. Yeah, but it medicalizes grief, it says, no, 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.440 now it's a mental disorder, well when it's not supposed 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.600 to be and it's a story slope. Yeah, you know, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.800 a temporary disorder though you would hope. So yeah, all right, 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.600 very keen insight. Nice work, Thank you psychology today. Yeah. 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:30.959 Is that where you got it? Oh? Yeah? Okay, Um, 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.199 so should we talk a little bit about dealing with it? 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.680 I guess yes, Um, you know these are it's it's 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.120 good advice, but it's also anytime I read something where 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.240 they're like take care of yourself and eat right next, 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.919 or some avoid drugs and alcohol. Yeah, but it is 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.119 very much true. You know that it only is going 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.080 to make things worse if you wallow in this and 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.840 abuse yourself with drugs and alcohol and don't eat and 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.720 you don't think there's all night. There's not a therapy 0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.879 to pouring like half of a forty out on the 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.520 herb for someone who's gone and then drinking the other half. Yeah, 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.000 I mean sure, but don't do that every day for 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.159 like weeks and weeks starting in nine A. Yeah, I 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:10.960 mean I think me and my friends got together and 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.280 got really good and plowed after we got the news 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:19.399 about my buddy. But but alcohol, My advice is to 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.879 avoid it after yes, but okay, So in addition to 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.120 avoiding drugs and alcohol, eating right and getting regular exercise, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.200 just the standard stuff. What was that also in jet lag? 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.840 Every time it's anything, um, the the there are like 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:41.000 some really good suggestions to dealing with grief. If you 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:45.160 find yourself overwhelmed by a profound sense of sadness, there 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:46.800 are things out there that you can do to make 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.600 yourself feel better. You can, um write a letter to 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.960 the deceased that's said to help booking. Yet, why not 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.200 throwing yourself into say making a memorial like those roadside 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:03.480 memorials or a video clip show who knows you? Actually? 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.879 You know what when my friend added did a video 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.199 see because his family put together a website like a 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.520 memorial website, and on the I had video footage back 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:14.879 then of him, and I did a little video for 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:16.840 the family. But it ended up really being like a 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.520 great thing for me. It made you feel better, absolutely, Yeah. 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.920 So basically putting yourself into a project there where you're 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:28.040 thinking about this person, I imagine this isn't an article. 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.840 This is just me doing some armtir psychology, but um, 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:35.840 I imagine it forces you to remember good things about 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.960 the person, and so during this time when you're possibly 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:43.720 a little more emotionally fragile than usual, you are being 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.439 reminded of positive memories, positive things as well. You know. 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:49.879 So you're maybe that's why that would help, but it 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:52.200 definitely doesn't help, you know for sure, because when you're 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.720 going through and doing like a scrapbook, it's these great 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.280 memories and these pictures and it's not you know, you 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.000 are remembering the good stuff, and that like the life, 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.320 which is I think how everyone wants to be remembered, 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.200 you know, it's like these great lives that we have 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.880 exactly you know, you want to be remembered as alive. Yeah. 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.040 I mean, I'm one of those people that always wants 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:14.399