1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's s 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: Y s K Selects, I've chosen How Grief Works. It's 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: an episode from April of two thirt and it covers 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: everything you ever wanted to know about grief, like, um, 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: do animals grieve? Of course they do, don't be ridiculous. 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: And if you happen to be grieving right now, I 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: hope this episode helps, So sit back and enjoy or 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: whatever you might do with it. Welcome to Stuff you 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Should Know from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant that makes the Stuff you Should Know the 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: podcast Good Grief. Yes, good Grief. I looked that up. 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: Would you come up with? Well, it just struck me 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: at you know, because Charlie Brown says it, you know, 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: and that's where I know it from. Then I thought, 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: why would where did that come from? Because from one 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: of those things, and it's just apparently they think it's 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: just what's called a minced oath, like when you substitute 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: God for good gravy or good google ees or I 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: got you googly moogly, googly moogly. But then I thought 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: grief was weird because that's such a specific thing. But 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: then good gracious gracious is very specific too, and like 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: ill fitting. So I guess it's just a minced oath 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: good grief. Well, maybe good gracious came from good grace 25 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: and somebody's like just feeling a little buzzed on schnops 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: and they added gracious instead. Maybe, so minced oaths good gravy. 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: That's good. It's probably the funniest thing that will happen 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,639 Speaker 1: in this show. Hopefully that wasn't even that funny. Yeah, 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: but this one's not supposed to be funny. It's about grief, 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And um, I think we should point 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: out from the get go that this is about grief, 32 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: human grief, Western human grief. Yeah, but that's not to 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: say that there aren't different types of grief and that 34 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: humans are the only ones who do grieve. In fact, 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: I have a story for you animal action too, So 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: what will you do? That was the funniest thing in 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: this episode? Uh. This story took place back in the 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: spring of in um Uttar Pradesh State, India, specifically in 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: the town of luck Now and even more specifically at 40 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: the Prince of Wales Zoo, there was a seventy two 41 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: year old elephant, female elephant named Dominie, and Domini was 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: hanging out in her little house at the Prince of 43 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: Wales Zoo when all of a sudden she got a 44 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: younger pregnant friend delivered to her um named Chumpacali. And 45 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: Chumpacali was, as I said, pregnant. She was actually on 46 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: maternity leave from her regular gig where she would just 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: let tourists ride on her back. Okay, all right, um, 48 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: and so she was she was taking to the Prince 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: of Wales Zoo to to basically just have a nice, 50 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: comfortable term and then give birth. And Domini just fell 51 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: in love with chompa collie. This is so sad already, 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: so um. She basically became a maternal figure Chumpacali. They 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: were best friends. Um. Chumpacali would lay around and um 54 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: Domini would stroke her pregnant belly with her trunk. They 55 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: just got really really tight, which is very normal in 56 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: in um the elephant world. Um. So you can almost 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: imagine that Domini was growing excited as Chumpacali got closer 58 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: and closer to her due date and when finally she 59 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: did um go into labor. Champacali died during childbirth and 60 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: gave birth to a stillborn calf, and Dominie, I guess 61 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: they let her come in and like, you know, hang 62 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: around the body because elephants are known to grieve well, 63 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: even as far as elephants go, Dominie stories a little. 64 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: That's pretty bad. She um. She cried over the body 65 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: for a while and then went over to her enclosure 66 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: and just stood still for a week. Right, you're killing 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: me after the week, um she During this week, she 68 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: she stopped eating. Um. She got to the point where 69 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: her legs swelled from basically starvation and dehydration until she 70 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: fell over. And then she just laid there for what 71 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: turned out to be the rest of her life, where 72 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,559 Speaker 1: she wept and refused to eat and refused to drink 73 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: and grieved over the death of her friend, and finally 74 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: died herself a few days later. Uh and the vets 75 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: tried to keep her alive. They um, they did what 76 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: they could, but they said in the end, Um, in 77 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: the face of Domini's intense grief, all her treatment failed. No, 78 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: they're buried next to one another. I had a dog 79 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: situation like that, similar when I was a kid, one 80 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: of my dogs died and they were best buds, and 81 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: the other one just like it was never the same 82 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: and died about three months later and seemed healthy at 83 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: the time. And I went out and laid down the 84 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: doghouse and cried when I was like seven, devastating. That's 85 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: a wonderful thing to do. That's working out your grief, 86 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, But as far as the animals go, 87 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: it really is pretty evenly divided among scientists who say, yes, 88 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: they show all the signs of grieving and that's what 89 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: they're doing, and then others that say, no, they are 90 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: not grieving. We're putting that on them as humans. Yeah, 91 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: that's I totally disagree with that. Yeah, it's just you know, 92 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: it's really two camps um. So we've talked about before. Yeah, 93 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: we've run up against this before, and I don't think 94 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: either one of us have changed our positions at all. 95 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: I think they grieve. But then you hear like this 96 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: one great ape you know, was famous recently for carrying 97 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: her little dead baby around for like three days, and 98 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: other scientists came out and said, like, you know, this 99 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: is a long gestation period they have. Singleton's having a 100 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: kid is a big deal. And so she's carrying this 101 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: baby around and hopes it it will come back to life, 102 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: and it's like in a comatose state, and you know, 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: it's a practical, adaptive, evolutionary thing that's happening. It's not grief. 104 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: And then I think you're heartless, right, Yeah, they're grieving 105 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: because they they took the baby chimp and made a 106 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: purse out of it. After that. Well, but then for animals, 107 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to get two sidetrack, but you have 108 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: to think, like when some clearly show signs of what 109 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: looks like grief and some don't at all, Like the 110 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: chimpanzee and the same you know arena, like they eat 111 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: other chimpanzees while they're still alive and screaming. Well, those 112 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: are the ones that back talk, or they go off 113 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: to die by themselves and there's no grieving, or they 114 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: will make like if one of them is dying, that 115 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: will like kill them. Right, But imagine, imagine you're an 116 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: outside observer of the human species. We we lose chemical 117 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: weapons on one another, and yet we still have funeral practices. 118 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's interesting. I wonder why certain animals 119 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: do and certain, don't you know, it's very interesting. Well, 120 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: getting back to um humans the human realm of grief, 121 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: there was a man who recently um was married to 122 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: his wife for sixty two years and she died and 123 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: on the way to her funeral, he died in the 124 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: back of the limousine and um, yeah, which I thought 125 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: was incredibly sweet. And then his his daughters they died 126 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: at the funeral. No, no no, they they put a sign up. 127 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: They decided to just have a double funeral and they 128 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: put a sign up at the wake that said surprise, 129 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: it's a double header and then buried him next to 130 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: her like that that day. Well, I guess their family 131 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: has a good sense of humor relates. But the point 132 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: is is, yeah, that is that that's a that's they 133 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: used a sense of humor to grief or else they 134 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: weren't going through grief. And the point of that whole 135 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 1: thing is is that there's no set way that grief works, 136 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: which is great because we can say just about anything 137 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: here and still being the right because psychology is still 138 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: grappling to define the process of grief. And some very 139 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: recent studies that you found show that grief is not 140 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: present and everyone and that everyone deals with it very differently, 141 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: and there's not really any specific way to handle it. 142 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: There's just some great general guidelines and that we should 143 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: say grief is a very personal thing. Yeah, and I 144 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: myself have experienced the spectrum of grief in my life, 145 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: like including you know, like family members passing away. Not 146 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: to be too cold, but some are you know, you 147 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: super grief for and some it's like, well, you know, 148 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: they were very old and they had a great life 149 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: and we saw this coming, and that's one of the 150 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: things that you know, it's one of the types of grief. 151 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: Anticipatory grief, they say, is probably easier because you're working 152 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: that stuff out over time and it's nothing like an 153 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: accident or a child dying. Unanticipated grief well, completely different, Yeah, 154 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: it is, so you So you mentioned anticipatory grief. That's 155 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: like if somebody's got a prolonged illness or something like that, 156 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: you have the chance to say goodbye ahead of time, 157 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: maybe deal with these emotions exactly, and then once death 158 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: actually comes, you've been prepared for this for days, weeks, months, right, Yeah, 159 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: and a lot of times something maybe there isn't any 160 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: quote unquote traditional grief going on at all because you're 161 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: just so prepared and it's just a matter of executing 162 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: all the things that you need to do if you're 163 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: the person that's in charge of that kind of like 164 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: you're so prepared you blow off the funeral to go 165 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: the grocery store. About that, Um, it's like a serial killer. 166 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: Psychologists call that kind of grief anticipatory grief basically the 167 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: money grief because it's it's about is um as light 168 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: as you can get post grief post death? I should say, right, yes, um, 169 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: And then again I want to say, like there's there's 170 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: probably a listener out there who like help their their 171 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: husband or their mother through a long bout of cancer 172 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: that the person finally succumbed to. That's like, that's absolutely untrue. 173 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like there again, there's no 174 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: specific um, Like, no one can tell you what your 175 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: grief was. Again, it's personal. This is just these are 176 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: very broad strokes. So okay, then, like you mentioned unanticipated grief, right, yeah, 177 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: I meant that's from my experience. I had a friend 178 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: that fell off a building and died, and that's like 179 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: definitely the hardest someone young an accident and uh, but 180 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: still if you want to talk about five stages. I don't. 181 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: I'm not a big believer that that's the case because 182 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: I didn't experience all these stages at all. Um. But 183 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: again it varies. Someone might experience tense stages. It does. 184 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: But but the point is with unanticipated grief like you 185 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: couldn't have you or your friend didn't wake up that morning, 186 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: like he was gonna die, but he still died, and 187 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 1: you have to deal with it all of a sudden um. 188 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: And then there's ambiguous grief, which for my money, is 189 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: probably the worst kind of grief. This is the kind 190 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: of grief that comes where, say, if you have a 191 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: loved one who is kidnapped and you never hear from 192 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: them again, or ever felt that one your parents abandoned 193 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: you as a child, um or just something happens is 194 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: somebody and there's no real resolution or closure or you know, 195 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be even death. It can be 196 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: like your girlfriend you come home to a note on 197 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: your bed you never hear from her again, or a wife. 198 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, because I guess we should also say, 199 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: like grief doesn't just have to come from death. Grief 200 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: is basically the deep and poignant distress caused by bereavement, 201 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: and bereavement is the state of being deprived of something 202 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: or someone, so that could be through to death whatever. 203 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Um, but yeah, so those are the three 204 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: types of normal grief just off the top of our heads. 205 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: We made those up right, Um, and you mentioned the 206 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: different kinds of Um, they're the different stages of grief 207 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: and you, I mean, that's just such like a pop 208 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: trope these days, but it was actually new just as 209 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: recently as a nineteen sixty nine when Dr Elizabeth Coogler 210 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: Ross came up with the five stages of grief that 211 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: you always hear about today that any ten year old 212 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: could probably recite to you. But I have since been 213 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: kind of deconstructed and change in question and challenge. But 214 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: these are the kind of the road map to go 215 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: through grief, right, Um, Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Right. 216 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: And denial is just basically saying this is you're you're 217 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: not true that there's still alive, Like what you say 218 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: is a lie, And I don't want to be anywhere 219 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: near you because you're lying to me right now about 220 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: something very horrible. Yeah, I've never experienced that, even with 221 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: my friend who fell off a building. Like that's as 222 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: sudden news as you can get over the phone. And 223 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: I'm just not the kind of person who's like, no, 224 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: that didn't happen. I was like, man, it immediately hit 225 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: me that that had happened, you know, And I started 226 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: from there, I guess. But I didn't experience anger either. 227 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: But you know, if it might have been my brother, 228 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: I might have experienced anger. You You raise a very 229 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: good point. There's different there's different Um, I guess, risk factors. 230 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: There's different elements to grief, and some of it is personal. 231 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: Some of it has to do with how close you 232 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: are to the person. Sure, Um, some of it has 233 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: to do with the type of person you are. You're 234 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: a pretty resilient person. If you were a very sensitive, 235 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: bookish type, you might have taken it a little harder, 236 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Um, you have a very 237 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: very very strong, tight support group, you do. Yeah, So, UM, 238 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: I would say that that that probably helped quite a bit. 239 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure you had a group of friends that like 240 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: helped you through that, that were probably friends with the 241 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: kid too, So you went through it as a group. Yeah, 242 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: going through something alone is always hard, even if you 243 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: think you're a loner and don't want to be around anyone, 244 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: you're probably not doing yourself any favorite. Uh. And then lastly, 245 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: you had prior experience with grief. You're throwing yourself down 246 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: in the doghouse when you were seven, so you had 247 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: that experience to draw upon and to know you can 248 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: make it through it. It does get better, it does 249 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: go away. Yeah, So you're gonna have the hardest normal 250 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: kind of grief if you are, like you said, a 251 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: loner with no support group, if this is the first 252 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: time you've ever experienced grief, if you're the sensitive, bookish type, 253 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: and um, if you were extraordinarily close to somebody, right, yeah, totally. 254 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: In fact, I used to do acting exercises in college. 255 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: What took this acting class? And believe it or not, 256 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: I took one acting class and I was not very 257 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: good at it. And that he used to tell us 258 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: to try and do like crying exercises and stuff. So 259 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: what do you think of my brother? Was always to 260 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: go to like imagine my brother had gotten killed or something. 261 00:14:54,080 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: I would just like boom, yeah myself, I if I 262 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: thought of your brother dying, I'm just kidding about the 263 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: other family members all right, so anger, that's the second one. Yes, 264 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: it is pretty self explained to her. Um bargaining. It 265 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: fascinates me, like the idea that that you I feel 266 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: like you're suddenly in a position to make a deal 267 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: with God to reverse the circumstances or bring the person 268 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: back or take away the pain. That's just so crazy. 269 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,239 Speaker 1: And it's it's you know, like you think of somebody 270 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: bargaining with God or some higher power and they're like 271 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: looking up talking to the ceiling or the sky, and 272 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: that that is one of the normal stages of grief. 273 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: That's I just find that fast. I did that when 274 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: I was young with girls. Oh yeah, well I was 275 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: heavy into church, very emotional kid and girls like you know, 276 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: it was one of those deals like God, I just please, 277 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: if you would just come back to me, I promise, 278 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: I'll do this, and i'll do that, I'll clean behind 279 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: my ears. I grew out of that pretty quick because 280 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: I realized, to make any different, that girl is either 281 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: coming back or she was hitting the road exactly. And 282 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: God probably had little if anything to do with that, 283 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: that's right, he was dealing with bigger problems. Um. After 284 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: that's depression, and this one is kind of tricky. Um, 285 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: if you if you go through the stage of depression, 286 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: if you do, it's not necessarily requisite. Um, they're starting 287 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: to wonder if possibly you're already depressed, and uh, if 288 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: you were already depressed, that probably means you're going to 289 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: maybe get stuck in the stage for a while, or 290 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: you might go through a depressed stage and then come 291 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: out of it. It's not necessarily But the problem with 292 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: this stage is that depression is a recognized mental disorder 293 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: and grief is not considered a mental disorder. And yet 294 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: in one of these five widely accepted stages, you go 295 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: through a period where you're you have a mental disorder. Yeah, 296 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: but it's part of a normal process. And you know, 297 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: that's basically like taking psychologists and throwing them into the 298 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: thunder dome, you know, greasing them up with chicken fat 299 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: and handing them battle axes and saying like, explain that. 300 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: You know, that's the funniest thing said in this podcast. Uh. 301 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: The last one is acceptance, of course, Um, when you 302 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: are finally able to move on And UM, I found 303 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: that one fairly interesting article where they they charted this 304 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: and they said it would look like a w is that, right, 305 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: like the high points and the low points. Yeah, which 306 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: I guess some denials a high point and then it 307 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: goes down to um anger. Yeah, up to bargaining. I 308 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: guess if you feel like that's getting you somewhere, maybe 309 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: it's an up. Maybe maybe um At the very least 310 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: it's manic. I would think, back down to depression and 311 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: then finishing the W with a nice bit of acceptance. Yeah. 312 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: And they've, as you said that, we've sort of been 313 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: studying this for like thirty or forty years, and there 314 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: was always that five stages thing, but recently they're looking 315 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: more into it, and they've done some studies with widowers 316 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: and widows, and they found that they really oscillate wildly 317 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: from day to day, and it's not necessarily going to 318 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: be a W. It's I felt great today and really 319 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: my spirits were up and I was even laughing. Then 320 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: the next day they were really sad. And it just 321 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: really is all over the map, right, But I think overall, 322 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: what they're finding is that on a long enough arc, 323 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: people emerge from it. And it seems to be somewhere 324 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: on the order of six months to three years. Yeah, 325 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: seems to be And I think that's the outliers are 326 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: maybe six months to three years. That's such a ridiculous 327 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: time frame. But the bolt but I mean like if 328 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: you study enough people, you can't probably create like makeup 329 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: like three months to five years, you know, no totally 330 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: and then say anyone else as an outlier. Right, But 331 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: that's the thing, like you can't. That's why everybody is 332 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: very wisely. Um they avoid aid saying things like that 333 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: like this is this is like it's almost respect for 334 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: the process. Like no one wants to come out and 335 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: say no, this is how it is, Yeah, because you can't, 336 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: and that's a mean thing to do. And actually there's 337 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: there's um the grief is is in danger of being 338 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: medicalized in the d s M five. One of the proposals, 339 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: there's a there's always been an exemption to bereavement with 340 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: depression like a depression UM diagnosis. If the person has 341 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: recently gone through the process of grief or is in 342 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: the process of grief, Um, you can't diagnose them with depression. 343 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: You can, but you're not gonna get reimbursed for any 344 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: meds you prescribed them. Well, under the d s M five, 345 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: they're taking away this bereavement exclusion so that doctors can 346 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: get reimbursed. Yeah, but it medicalizes grief, it says, no, 347 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: now it's a mental disorder, well when it's not supposed 348 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: to be and it's a story slope. Yeah, you know, 349 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: a temporary disorder though you would hope. So yeah, all right, 350 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: very keen insight. Nice work, Thank you psychology today. Yeah. 351 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 1: Is that where you got it? Oh? Yeah? Okay, Um, 352 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 1: so should we talk a little bit about dealing with it? 353 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: I guess yes, Um, you know these are it's it's 354 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: good advice, but it's also anytime I read something where 355 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: they're like take care of yourself and eat right next, 356 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: or some avoid drugs and alcohol. Yeah, but it is 357 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: very much true. You know that it only is going 358 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: to make things worse if you wallow in this and 359 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: abuse yourself with drugs and alcohol and don't eat and 360 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: you don't think there's all night. There's not a therapy 361 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: to pouring like half of a forty out on the 362 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: herb for someone who's gone and then drinking the other half. Yeah, 363 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean sure, but don't do that every day for 364 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: like weeks and weeks starting in nine A. Yeah, I 365 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: mean I think me and my friends got together and 366 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: got really good and plowed after we got the news 367 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: about my buddy. But but alcohol, My advice is to 368 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: avoid it after yes, but okay, So in addition to 369 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: avoiding drugs and alcohol, eating right and getting regular exercise, 370 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: just the standard stuff. What was that also in jet lag? 371 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: Every time it's anything, um, the the there are like 372 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: some really good suggestions to dealing with grief. If you 373 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: find yourself overwhelmed by a profound sense of sadness, there 374 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: are things out there that you can do to make 375 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: yourself feel better. You can, um write a letter to 376 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: the deceased that's said to help booking. Yet, why not 377 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: throwing yourself into say making a memorial like those roadside 378 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: memorials or a video clip show who knows you? Actually? 379 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: You know what when my friend added did a video 380 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: see because his family put together a website like a 381 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: memorial website, and on the I had video footage back 382 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: then of him, and I did a little video for 383 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: the family. But it ended up really being like a 384 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: great thing for me. It made you feel better, absolutely, Yeah. 385 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: So basically putting yourself into a project there where you're 386 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: thinking about this person, I imagine this isn't an article. 387 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: This is just me doing some armtir psychology, but um, 388 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: I imagine it forces you to remember good things about 389 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: the person, and so during this time when you're possibly 390 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: a little more emotionally fragile than usual, you are being 391 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: reminded of positive memories, positive things as well. You know. 392 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: So you're maybe that's why that would help, but it 393 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: definitely doesn't help, you know for sure, because when you're 394 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: going through and doing like a scrapbook, it's these great 395 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: memories and these pictures and it's not you know, you 396 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: are remembering the good stuff, and that like the life, 397 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: which is I think how everyone wants to be remembered, 398 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's like these great lives that we have 399 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: exactly you know, you want to be remembered as alive. Yeah. 400 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm one of those people that always wants 401 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: my funeral to be you know, a little bit more 402 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: of an upbeat affair as much as it can be. 403 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: You know, where some people like, no, man, I want 404 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: people really sad, right, Yeah, I want to be mourned 405 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: for days. It's not me. Yeah, so you want the 406 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: upbeat affair? Yeah, OK, I have have a party and 407 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: you know, make fun of me, but not like g. 408 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: G Allen's funeral. I have to research that one. I 409 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: can only imagine what it was like. Yeah, it's pretty 410 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: hardcore pretty much. Okay, Yeah, did they inject his corpse 411 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: with heroin? Or he's buried naked though and they lived naked? 412 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: It was. Yeah, you can do some research if you 413 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, Man, he died in like in a 414 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: horrible way. Didn't they find him, like murdered in an 415 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: alley naked and like never found the murderer. Now, I 416 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: think he killed himself. I thought he was murdered or o'deed. 417 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: I thought he was like stabbed a death. I don't 418 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: think so. He used to ease to threaten to kill 419 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: himself on stage. That was a big thing, was that 420 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: he's like, one day it's going to happen. I thought 421 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: his big thing was like pooping on stage. He did 422 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: that a lot too. Yeah, he kept that promise. Um 423 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: Man was going to show up in the grief episode. 424 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: For another thing you can do to um I guess 425 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: kind of helped through the grief process is to throw 426 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: yourself into a project that you think the deceased might appreciate. Yeah, 427 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: or some organization they might have been affiliated with right, 428 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: that's what I meant. Yeah, Yeah, Like if you lose 429 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: someone to cancer or maybe get involved with the Common 430 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: Foundation or one of the other groups, or apparently Mad 431 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: Mothers Against Drunk Driving was founded in memory of a 432 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: deceased person absolutely killed by a drunk driver. One would imagine, Um, 433 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: there's just a lot of stuff out there that you 434 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: can do yourself. A lot of people pretty much immediately 435 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: go to therapy, at least initially to get a little help, 436 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: to get some insights, some advice whatever. Um, that's not 437 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: necessarily the case for everybody. And they they've definitely found 438 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: that therapy is not even necessarily helpful for everybody. There's 439 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who probably wonder if 440 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: they're dead inside because they don't grieve like supposedly everyone 441 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: else does. But study after study is finding that actually, 442 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: people who go through significant grief, um is a fairly 443 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: small portion of people who experience a loss. Yeah, didn't 444 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: we have a study in here? Yeah right here? Um. 445 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: They what they do generally is they track groups of 446 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: widows and widowers for a period of time and just 447 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: have them, you know, remark about how they're feeling on 448 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: a day to day basis, and uh, this one was 449 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: for up to five years I think and between twenty 450 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: six and had no significant symptoms in the initial years 451 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: after the loss, and only nine to forty percent did. 452 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: And there's a big variability there, but they said it's 453 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: partially from how the symptoms were measured. And in another 454 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: study they found that about experience what you could diagnose 455 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: this depression after the loss, and only about eleven um 456 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: had trouble with it, like couldn't shake it after six 457 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: to eighteen months, I believe, right, and ten of people 458 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: who lost a spouse felt relief. These were people that 459 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: had reported being unhappy in their marriage. So there's that 460 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: those are the ones that dance on their spouses grave 461 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: I guess so. And I don't necessarily think it's that cold, 462 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: but there there could be some mild relief if you 463 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: weren't genuinely weren't happy in your marriage. And it doesn't 464 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: mean you're dancing on graves and partying, but it might 465 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 1: just be like, all right, well, now I can go 466 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: move Tobas in Lucas like I always wanted to and 467 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: hang out with Sammy Hagar, but my wife hates the ocean. Yeah, 468 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: and now I can do that, right, And my wife 469 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: also hated Sammy hagar it. I'm gonna go hang out 470 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: with them. Yeah. They also think that men may grieve heavier, 471 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: even though it's at long believe that women do. Um, 472 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: but I think a study like that is sort of silly. 473 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: It's so variable, like from person to person, don't know, right, 474 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: But we say all this to point out that if 475 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: you don't experience what other people would recognize as grief, 476 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you anymore than there is if 477 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: you experience grief. Exactly what psychiatry and psychology have started 478 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: to pay a little more attention to is what's been 479 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: termed complicated grief, and that is technically, if you go, 480 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: say several months to where your life is really really interrupted. 481 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: You can't sleep, you can't eat, You're having trouble focusing 482 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: on anything but the death of this person, the loss 483 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, you start to seriously doubt things very 484 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: important in your life, maybe like religion even um lost 485 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: a child, like there can't be a god that kind 486 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: of stuff, right, Or conversely, if you can't even mention 487 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: the person's name or hear the person's name, basically, if 488 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: your life is disruptive for many months. Then basically everybody 489 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: from the Mayo Clinic to the a p A says 490 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: maybe you should go see somebody about this. Yeah, because 491 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: it can also manifests itself in aggression and UM violence, 492 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: self destructive UM physical self destruction. So it can complicated 493 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: is an understatement here for this kind of grief, I think, right, Um, 494 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: so there's different kinds. If you go see a counselor 495 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: with what's considered normal grief, they're probably going to help 496 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: you let go of the person while still honoring their 497 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: memory and recognizing them and the impact that they had 498 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: on your life, but to get out there and live 499 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: your own life. They're gonna try to reach the same 500 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: goal if you have complicated grief, but they're going to 501 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: do it a different way, and they're probably going to 502 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: encourage you to really form an even greater bond with 503 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: the person now that they're deceased, that you can nurture 504 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: and hold onto and carry around with you. That makes 505 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: sense to me. Yeah, And this kind in this case, 506 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: it's not like you can't tell a parent who has 507 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: lost a child, like and you know you need to 508 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: work through this and get over it, right and that's 509 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: actually one of the risk factors for complicated grief. Grief 510 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: is the death of a child, the death of somebody 511 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: that you are possibly co dependent on, right and very 512 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: very close to, or um, the death of a sudden death, 513 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: usually from trauma, say like a murder, right or something 514 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: like that. Um, those are risk factors for complicated grief. 515 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: So I would imagine that if you if you had 516 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: a loved one who has murdered, you probably are already 517 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: getting some sort of professional attention, and if you're not, 518 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: maybe you should. Well. Yeah, And that's what we're basically 519 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: talking about was the difference between grief and trauma and 520 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: when you've experienced it to that degree. Trauma is the 521 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: whold front deal. They'd say, it feels unreal and it's 522 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: can be terrifying. The terror is the most common emotion. UM. 523 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: It's common if you have dreams about a deceased loved one, 524 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: But if you're having traumatizing dreams about yourself being endangered, 525 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: then you've you've crossed the line from grief into trauma 526 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: and complicated grief heavy stuff. It is very heavy. Losing 527 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: a pet is for some people a very very very 528 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: big deal. UM, and other people, well, people that aren't 529 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: into pets at all don't get it. And then some 530 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: people that do have pets are just more equipped to 531 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: deal with the loss of a pet and not like 532 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: it's the loss of a human. But for people like 533 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: me and Jerry over there, I know that losing a pet, 534 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, is like equivalent to losing you know, a 535 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: family member, and the grieving process is about the same, 536 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: I would imagine if it's you know, that impactful. And 537 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: my advice is you should talk to other people who 538 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: have similar feelings, because one of the things that can 539 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: be toughest about losing a bet is when you talk 540 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: to people who don't have pets. And I don't think 541 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: it's that big of a deal to lose a bet, 542 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: and that that can make things a lot worse. Well, 543 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: they say that if you, um, if you do experience 544 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: the loss of a pet and you find that you're 545 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: grieving over it, you should go ahead with the grief. 546 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 1: Don't feel embarrassed or dumb for that. Go lie down 547 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: the doghouse and cry like a six year old. Uh, 548 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: you got anything else? I ran across one thing. Um, 549 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: there was a guy in three named Paul Rosenblatt, who 550 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: UM carried out a study of I think like fifty 551 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: six Victorian diaries of people who would experienced loss interesting 552 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: and UM, so grief is definitely cultural and also historically 553 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: bound to like UM they found. He found that the 554 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: goal for these diarists was to keep the person alive 555 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: around him, like all the time, like they would try 556 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: to sense the person around them, or like maybe sitting 557 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: their favorite chair because they could tell that they were 558 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: still there in somewhere or whatever. And that under those circumstances, 559 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: he found that grief never really seemed to ever go away, 560 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: that it was something that they carried around for the 561 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: rest of their lives. And in fact, UM, one of 562 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: the things that the Victorians did was they would wear 563 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: black for a year, I believe, and then dark colors 564 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: after that, especially if you were a widow and the 565 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: on the anniversary, you wear black too, right, I think so. 566 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: And you're expected to carry around this grief for the 567 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: rest of your life. Um. And one of the things 568 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: they also did that actually still around today was bereavement photography, 569 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: which is post mortem photography. We put done the thing 570 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: on that have we um? And it's we did, didn't we? Yeah? 571 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: And we got an email just as recently is today 572 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: from a woman who lost a child UM and had 573 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: cast made of the baby's hands and feet. Really, and 574 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: she said that it was something UM has very much 575 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: helped her through. Yeah. She said it was a gift 576 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: from the hospital UM to help them through their grief. 577 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: And the hospital said, Hey, you know, you might not 578 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,239 Speaker 1: want it now, but we really encourage you to have 579 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: this done and we'll pay for it, UM, because you know, 580 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: years from now you may really be happy that you haven't. 581 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: She said, They're absolutely right. Wow, that's really great. Yeah. 582 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: What was that email in reference to death masks? Okay, yeah, 583 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: but it just happened to come in to day when 584 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: we were researching grief. That's about it. I guess. Huh, 585 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: that's it. That's a to Z grief. We touched on 586 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: every single thing possible. What UM. Yeah, I guess If 587 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about grief, you can type 588 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: that word into the search bar how stuff works dot 589 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: com Remember I before E except after ce UM Chuck, 590 00:33:48,960 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: hold on, let's let's take a message break. Huh. So, Josh, 591 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: you can, by the way, to jump back look into 592 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: more grief on our website, or you could go to 593 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: Google and look at pigmy coats. That helps too, That's 594 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: what I would say. All right, So now not listener 595 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: mail Josh. Today we have nice Chuck, well done. All right, 596 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: So we're gonna this is gonna be an ongoing thing 597 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: because as usual they stack up. Well man, we have 598 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: very busy work schedule us and we like to say 599 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: thanks to as many people as possible for those of 600 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: you who don't know. Administrative details is a segment that 601 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: replaces listener mail, in which we read out thank you 602 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,720 Speaker 1: to fans who have sent us stuff, tokens, yeah, anything, 603 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: yep um. For example, postcard of Rapa Nui from Ryan Confort, 604 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: thank you for that. Nice that's that's Easter Island, okay. Um. 605 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: Jacob Board sent us Yellowstone Park shirts, postcards, info cards, hats. 606 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because he works there. Yeah, that was a 607 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: pretty sweet kif and he gets a discount. Hopes he 608 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: hope he is. Um. Thanks to Shanti Diva for the 609 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: postcard of the monkey k nots. Casey Herring sent us 610 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: cookies and they were delicious. Which cookies the delicious one? Okay, 611 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: not this crappy ones. Um. We got a wedding invitation 612 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: from Rachel and John Reid. Congratulations, surprising no one jestice 613 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: to officiate. I do that. Oh man, you just opened 614 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: the flood gate. Um, hitch safe inventor Tim Freeman sent 615 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: it's a hitch safe and that is a little thing 616 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: that you stick in your trailer hitch if you have 617 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: a truck pickup truck and it's got a little key 618 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: and this hollowed out and you can like put your 619 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: wallet and stuff in there if you go kayaking and 620 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: lock it up. I didn't see this. Well, because you 621 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: don't have to pick Okay, you get a trailer hitch, buddy, 622 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: you can will split the hitch. Okay, Well happy here. Yeah, um, 623 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: let's see. We got a Christmas card and postcards plural 624 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: from Becca Evans at uc sc alright, justin Norman, Um citius, 625 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: an Ergo desk and iPad holder and I'm actually using 626 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: the one for the laptop on my desk. It's quite 627 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: lovely and it's handmade wood and you can find that 628 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: debt wood bold dot com. Yeah, that's really a sight 629 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: to behold. Yeah, it's amazing. It looks like plastic, right, 630 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: but it's would Yeah. Yeah, Um, we got a Christmas 631 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: postcard from Daviny b who for some reason was dressed 632 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 1: as Wilfred from the TV show Wilfred. So thank you Davini. 633 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: Uh Lorian Leonard Sinus some yummy chocolates from Ficus in Marshfield, Wisconsin. Yeah, 634 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: it was lovely. Um we got a copy of the 635 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: book Brushing the Teeth of Elvis's Monkey and a nice 636 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: letter from Nurse Beeth. So thank you for that. Uh, 637 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna go and busted do my 638 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: books here. Um. We got how Colin Why How We 639 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: Do Anything Means Everything by Darv Siedman. We got Swing 640 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: Colon to Search My Father Louis Prima by Alan Gerstell. 641 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: Uh Science Nearly Explained by Dick Maxwell and that is 642 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: on Amazon. And kindle the Vampire Combat Manual from our 643 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: buddy roger Ma who sent us the Zombie Combat Manual. 644 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: And I imagine pretty soon we're gonna have a werewolf 645 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: Combat Manual, I would hope. So it's Rogers Getting Lazy 646 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: and trunk List, which is a children's book from Sean 647 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: Antoniac and Matthew Antoniac. That was sweet. It was like 648 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: a graphic novel. Yeah, and they sent us some cool 649 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: stickers from uh eight one one Graphics dot com. So 650 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: those are my books. Um, let's see what else. We 651 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: got another postcard from Rapa Nui from Emily B. That 652 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: rhymes Yeah. We got trifold wallets from trifold, try hold 653 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: from trifle wallets thanice man. Yeah, you should get paid 654 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: for this. There's a dude named lars c who kind 655 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: of went all over the place and he went to 656 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: Las Cobos, Las Cabos of course, Sammy Harry Gary's place, Seattle, Philadelphia, Calgary, Montreal, 657 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: Nova Scotia, and he kind of took us with him 658 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: and sent us postcards along the way. So thanks a 659 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: lot largs Aaron Cooper, thank you for your cool phone 660 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: Corps poster versions of some of your best stuff. You 661 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: should know photoshop jobs. Yes, I love these. That's not 662 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: the first time they sent those either, so thanks a 663 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: lot erin it's a regular coop. Um, we got a 664 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: nice postogram from Michael Store Caroline Larsons in this magnetic skulls. Yeah, 665 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: those are awesome, like the Day of the Dead skulls 666 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: of her own art, I believe, I think so. Um 667 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: I've got her down too, and I have her website. 668 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: It is um. I believe Caroline Larson Art dot com. 669 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: If I come across it, I'll correct myself if that's wrong, 670 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure that's right. Okay, I got one 671 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,399 Speaker 1: more for now, and then you pick one more good 672 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: one and then we'll pick this up again. Jennifer Dunaway 673 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: sent us a knitted tree scarf. And this is just 674 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: a scarf that you go and you pick a tree 675 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: and you put a little scarf on it. Okay, and 676 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: it's pretty darn cute and it makes the city more beautiful. Nice. 677 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: So thank you Jennifer Dunaway for that. Um. And then 678 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 1: I got a nice handmade birthday card for me, specifically 679 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: nice from s Y s K Army member Courtney Hoover. 680 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: So thanks a lot for that, Corney. Uh. And that's 681 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: administrative details for this week part one. Uh. As far 682 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: as this list goes, we've got this for the next 683 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: six months. And I am right it is Caroline Larson 684 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: Art c A R O L I N E l 685 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: A R s E n RT dot com. Yeah, get 686 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: a tree scarf, Yeah, that's what I say. And a 687 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: school magnet. All right. Oh okay, let's see if you 688 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: want to uh tweet to us, you can join us 689 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter at s y ESK podcasts. You can join 690 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you Should Know. 691 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: You can send us a good old fashioned website. Visit 692 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: to stuff you Should Know dot com for moralness and 693 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Visit how stuff Works dot com