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Speaker 1: So this week's classic episode is an example of the

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Speaker 1: topic that we felt we needed ethically to explore. We

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Speaker 1: we felt that it was an ethical obligation. This episode

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Speaker 1: touches on some incredibly disturbing things. You can tell by

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Speaker 1: the title it is What is genocide? That is a

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Speaker 1: question we explore concerning not only the genocide of World

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Speaker 1: War Two, but the Armenian genocide and why calling it

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Speaker 1: a genocide is so controversial to some people. Um, what

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Speaker 1: do you guys recall about this episode? I just remember

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Speaker 1: the news in this time discussing that specific controversy about

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Speaker 1: Armenia and the genocide from the earlier nineteen hundreds and

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Speaker 1: whether or not, Yeah, whether or not very specific people

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Speaker 1: within I think the British government, the United States government,

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Speaker 1: and a few other Western powers, whether or not they

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Speaker 1: would recognize it, what what occurred to the Armenian people

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Speaker 1: as genocide? So with that, let's jump in from UFOs

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Speaker 1: two Ghosts and government cover ups. History is writ with

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Speaker 1: unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to now. Hello, welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt and I'm then.

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Speaker 1: We are here with our super producer Noel Brown, and

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Speaker 1: most importantly here with you, listening wherever you are whatever

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Speaker 1: you're doing, which, now that I say it, Matt, it

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Speaker 1: creeps me out a little. Yeah, they can hear everything

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Speaker 1: you're saying, right, And we don't know what you guys

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Speaker 1: are doing out there. You driving a car, man, We

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Speaker 1: shouldn't get into that. There could be some dark So

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Speaker 1: are you dragging up body size garbage bag behind you?

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine that something like that is happening,

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Speaker 1: and we are just somehow manifesting it by even saying, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's put some positive stuff in into Did you just

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Speaker 1: finish running a mile faster than you ever thought you

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Speaker 1: could or a kilometer faster than you ever thought you could?

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Speaker 1: Congratulations on that. Congratulations. Are you working out? Did you

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Speaker 1: get to that last set? Are you? Are you dozing gently?

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe drinking booze, maybe having a cup of tea

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Speaker 1: before you? Are you giving your dog the spring slash

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Speaker 1: summer shave right now? Is that what you're doing because

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Speaker 1: you needed to have something while you were doing that? Yeah? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Are you on the way to a job interview that

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Speaker 1: might be your dream job or something? Well, hopefully you're

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Speaker 1: not doing that and listening to this, hopefully you're preparing mentally.

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Speaker 1: Unless this is how you do that, maybe it is.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, we don't know what the dream job is.

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Speaker 1: But ladies and gentlemen, Matt Noel and I are here

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Speaker 1: today looking for a little bit of levity here of

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Speaker 1: wanting to be positive. And you know, often humor can

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Speaker 1: be a defense mechanism. I can't remember which, I can't

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Speaker 1: remember who said it, Matt, but you've heard that quotation

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Speaker 1: before that humor is tragedy with a scab. You know,

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Speaker 1: our tragedy plus time equal's comedy, right. Uh. Gary Larson

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Speaker 1: had one of my favorite quotes about humor, which was

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Speaker 1: the relationship between tragic and humor, where he said, uh,

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Speaker 1: tragedy is when I cut my finger. Humor is when

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Speaker 1: you walk into an open sewer and die. And he

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Speaker 1: was being tongue in cheek. Of course, Gary Larson is

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Speaker 1: an amazing person and I love the far Side. But

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Speaker 1: the reason we are, uh, the reason we are looking

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Speaker 1: for some of that levity is that, uh, we're today

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Speaker 1: we're exploring, um a couple of interrelated sub jecks that

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Speaker 1: are a matter of great debate across the planet. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and in this particular case, there's a lot of history

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Speaker 1: and emotion that's bottled up in this subject. So um yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why we we want you to be doing something happy.

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Speaker 1: Please be doing something happy. Well, I mean hopefully not

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Speaker 1: too happy. You're not something you can only do once

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Speaker 1: because we don't want to ruin it for you. If

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Speaker 1: you are a few footsteps away from the summit of

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Speaker 1: Mount Everest, just turn on some cool mountain climbing music. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: If if your wife is going into labor with your

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Speaker 1: first child at this moment, take your headphones off right now,

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Speaker 1: right way, wearing headphones come on. That's terrible. Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: what what we were talking about right now is a

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Speaker 1: is an event that occurred a hundred years ago this week,

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Speaker 1: and just to just the um put us in the mindset,

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Speaker 1: maybe uh tell a little bit about it as a story. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so as near as we can tell. In the modern day,

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Speaker 1: around April twenty four, nineteen fifteen, uh, the Ottoman Empire,

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Speaker 1: which was already in decline, took action. For a while.

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Speaker 1: They had suspected that one of their geopolitical rivals, one

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Speaker 1: of their nemesses, Russia, was using the minority group of

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Speaker 1: Armenian Christians in the Empire as a clandestined force to

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Speaker 1: work against the Ottoman Empire. And so they rounded up intellectuals,

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Speaker 1: they rounded up uh statesman, people of note. And by

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Speaker 1: the end of this and this is generally thought when

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Speaker 1: it began, by the end of that time, an estimated

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Speaker 1: one point five million Armenians living in the area were dead,

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Speaker 1: uh in in brutal ways. I mean death, marches, starvation, degradation,

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Speaker 1: all the terrible things that could occur. Yeah, there are

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Speaker 1: some pretty horrifying images even on the Wikipedia page of

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Speaker 1: all places, if you look this, uh, this event up.

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Speaker 1: Now we should say that this, this event again a

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Speaker 1: hundred years later, century later, remains intensely divisive, depending on

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Speaker 1: part what part of the world you are in. UM

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Speaker 1: around twenty maybe more than twenty now countries have officially

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Speaker 1: signed on to say that what occurred said genocide. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The many major world powers. Turkey, however, does not describe

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Speaker 1: this as a genesis. Side and to look at why

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Speaker 1: what what we're finding here is that despite this disagreement,

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Speaker 1: neither side denies that hundreds of thousands of people died.

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Speaker 1: It's it's more a conversation about whether this was what

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Speaker 1: could be described as a genocide. And interestingly enough, this

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Speaker 1: gives us a look at international relations plenty of conspiracies,

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Speaker 1: because both sides believe that there is a conspiracy of

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Speaker 1: some sort of foot behind the claim here. But before

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Speaker 1: we get to all of that today, we need to

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Speaker 1: ask ourselves what a genocide actually is. Right. According to

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Speaker 1: Raphael Limken, who actually coined the term genocide in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty four, the term comes from the Greek genos or genos,

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Speaker 1: meaning race or kind uh and side c I d E,

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Speaker 1: which it means death. So literally, when you say genocide,

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Speaker 1: you're saying killing a race or tribe, right right. And

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Speaker 1: as we as we pointed out in our earlier video

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Speaker 1: on this, the term technically the way the way it

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Speaker 1: should be constructed would be genticide g E N T

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Speaker 1: I C I d. But now genocide is the word

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Speaker 1: we use today to mean this, this specific kind of crime. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's not the first word that attempted to describe

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Speaker 1: this occurrence in the seventeen nineties. Uh, there's a word

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Speaker 1: pop populo side I think, and that originated from the

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Speaker 1: French Revolution, the idea of killing an entire or the

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Speaker 1: attempted killing of an entire population. Right. We also know

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Speaker 1: that Limcoln arrived at this after after trying a couple

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Speaker 1: of different words and ultimately understanding that he had to

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Speaker 1: create something that people would know, people would be able

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Speaker 1: to recognize instantly that wasn't already with something else. And

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Speaker 1: he has he has a profound story because he worked.

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Speaker 1: He was born in Poland, a lawyer, and uh he

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Speaker 1: made it his life's work essentially to get this Convention

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Speaker 1: on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He he wanted people to h he wanted nations to

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Speaker 1: be able to prosecute this as a crime. And this

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Speaker 1: is of course, you know, at the close of World

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Speaker 1: War two, after the Holocaust. So which which was you know,

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Speaker 1: by no means no means whatsoever the own the genocide

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Speaker 1: in human history, right. No, it was just at this

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Speaker 1: point someone is actually trying to put a label on

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Speaker 1: it that that is represent truly representative how horrifying it is.

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Speaker 1: And I do I really like that point of having

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Speaker 1: having to create a word to represent this horrific act,

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Speaker 1: because it's there wasn't one and you could say massacre,

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Speaker 1: you could say all these other words, but it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: truly represent trying to wipe out an entire tribe and

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Speaker 1: or race, or you know, a group of people in

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Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, I'm glad you said that there is

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Speaker 1: there is a difference, because if we look at the

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Speaker 1: way Lincoln defines it, he says, there's and and don't worry, guys,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to spend too much time just bogged

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Speaker 1: down in the specifics and the semantics. Well, this is

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Speaker 1: interesting to me. I hope it's interesting to you. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And there's some of we have to talk about. So

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Speaker 1: Lincoln keeps the emphasis all of genocide on a group

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Speaker 1: or a kind of a people, uh, not necessarily a nation.

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Speaker 1: And there's also intent. That's an important part. We have

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Speaker 1: a quotation from him here. It is intended rather to

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Speaker 1: signify a coordinated plan of different actions aimed at the

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Speaker 1: destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups,

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Speaker 1: with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. So this

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Speaker 1: means that attacking a nation is not really going to

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Speaker 1: be genocide automatically. He later clarified even further. I think

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Speaker 1: in ninety six this occurs. He said that genocide should

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Speaker 1: be known as a conspiracy to exterminate national, religious, or

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Speaker 1: racial groups. So well, several of these things can fit

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Speaker 1: in a box. But it's not a genocide unless the

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Speaker 1: plan is to kill every person in that nation, which

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Speaker 1: which which you know, legally separates it from a different

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Speaker 1: act of you know, from a conventional act of war. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The u N ultimately picked up on this, but they

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Speaker 1: have a much more long winded definition, so long of course,

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Speaker 1: that we refused to We refused to read it in

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Speaker 1: our video because we realized we could just throw it

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Speaker 1: up on the screen. Um, but we've got the quote here.

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Speaker 1: Who wants to take it? You want you want to handle,

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Speaker 1: you want me to sure. Genocide is defined as any

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Speaker 1: of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in

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Speaker 1: whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group,

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Speaker 1: such as killing members of the group, causing serious bodily

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Speaker 1: or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting

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Speaker 1: on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about

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Speaker 1: its physical destruction in whole or in part, imposing measures

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Speaker 1: intended to prevent births within the group, and forcibly transferred

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Speaker 1: children of the group to another group. So we see

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Speaker 1: some we see some terrifying examples in these definitions already,

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Speaker 1: because we know, you know, the lost generation of Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: children in Australia sent away from their families these different

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Speaker 1: schools in the US, when Native American children were sent

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Speaker 1: off to these UH schools to teach them to assimilate Rwanda.

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Speaker 1: Good example. Yeah, the Rwanda who to UH to see

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Speaker 1: genocide uh. We we also see that this doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: ending a group, does not necessarily mean UH bussing everybody

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Speaker 1: to a place and shooting them in the head. This

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Speaker 1: could just be a generation thing where you know, like

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Speaker 1: their children are no longer part of this culture because

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Speaker 1: you could also kill the culture as well as the people.

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Speaker 1: So with all, with all that, that's that's the idea

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Speaker 1: of genocide. And you'll and you'll hear people who say,

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Speaker 1: you can find things online where people say that the

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Speaker 1: Armenian the events in the Ottoman Empire at that time

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Speaker 1: were not a genocide. They argue that there are two

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Speaker 1: different definitions of genocide. There's the one that you or

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Speaker 1: I or or n like we the common people would recognize,

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Speaker 1: and then there's the more nuanced legal version, which hinges

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Speaker 1: upon intent. So with all that in mind what what

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Speaker 1: happened in Armenia. So here here's the stuff you really

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Speaker 1: need to know about the Armenian Massacre. It's also known

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Speaker 1: as the Armenian Holocaust or Med's Urine the Armenian gen aside,

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Speaker 1: though it's not legally recognized as a genocide. UM. The

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Speaker 1: massacre began April nineteen fifteen, about a hundred years ago today.

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Speaker 1: We've mentioned that a couple of times. UM. It's estimated

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Speaker 1: that the deaths, like we said, range as high as

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Speaker 1: one point five million, but that number varies depending on

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Speaker 1: which side you're talking to, and even UM, in certain

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Speaker 1: historical accounts it maybe I think you said in the video,

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Speaker 1: anywhere from three hundred thousand all the way up to

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Speaker 1: one five million. Right, Yes, and we see there's an

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Speaker 1: argument here about whether there is a dearth or a

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Speaker 1: lack of primary sources die commnitary evidence. However, we do

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Speaker 1: know that UM, shortly after the nineteen fifteen events, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this stuff began to appear in the news, right yes,

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Speaker 1: so so the people who are actually doing the the

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Speaker 1: killing were Turkish forces at the time, the Ottoman Empire.

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Speaker 1: Like you said, the big question here is why why

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Speaker 1: did this occur. Why would this happen? And you mentioned

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Speaker 1: at the top that there was some suspicion within the

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Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire that the let's say, the Russian forces were

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Speaker 1: attempting to somehow use this population against the Empire, and

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Speaker 1: that seems to be where it started, right and to

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Speaker 1: be fair, this is not an impossible things, as we

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Speaker 1: had also talked about. Of course, one of the one

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Speaker 1: of the comparisons that you can make to clandestine groups,

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Speaker 1: because what they're ultimately arguing, the Ottoman Empire is arguing

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Speaker 1: here is that Russia was using UH this population or

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Speaker 1: members of this population as a clandestine force pretty much

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Speaker 1: terrorist group right or at the very least espionage and

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Speaker 1: they were therefore a proxy. This is occurring today in

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Speaker 1: other countries. You know, Iran has proxies in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: the US has proxies in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia

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Speaker 1: has proxies in the Middle East. There are proxies in

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Speaker 1: other countries. Of course, we know that in like during

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Speaker 1: the escalation and the occurrence of the Vietnam War UH,

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Speaker 1: the US engaged Lao Asian UH groups to to fight

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Speaker 1: and UH that itself could be an entire episode as

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Speaker 1: possible that it was happening, But I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: possible that that number of people, or that large of

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Speaker 1: a percentage of a group of people could be working

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Speaker 1: in that way. That's I you know, I'm certain that's

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Speaker 1: not possible. Absolutely, you hit the nail on the head.

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Speaker 1: Would one point five million people be working in it

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Speaker 1: even even or maybe yeah, maybe the idea was more

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Speaker 1: that a small group would motivate a I mean, we

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Speaker 1: see a lot of coups begin as a move for independence, right, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe it could be something like that. But what But

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. Even today, the Turkish government says it's

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Speaker 1: not a genocide, there was in their very sense of

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Speaker 1: about it. Recently, just recently, Pope Francis um caused a

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Speaker 1: huge uproar when he described, uh, the Armenian events as

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Speaker 1: a genocide. Uh. And did so, of course, because there

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Speaker 1: is massive concern about people of the Christian faith in

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Speaker 1: the in the Middle East at this time, right, and

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Speaker 1: this this was a concern that Turkey will recall an

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Speaker 1: ambassador away from your country if you mentioned this officially

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Speaker 1: the the US president. Uh. And not to get too political,

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Speaker 1: but these are just the facts, folks. Whichever side of

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Speaker 1: political ideology you fall on. I'm being completely factual when

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Speaker 1: I say that several US presidents and political officials have

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Speaker 1: while they are running said they are going to call

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Speaker 1: this thing in genocide to use the g work, and

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Speaker 1: then when they are elected they never do, or they

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Speaker 1: haven't yet. I guess is the most fair way to

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Speaker 1: say it. Uh. But why is this so sensitive, Turkey says.

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Speaker 1: Turkey says that, uh, this is an attempt to attack

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Speaker 1: their identity and history, as I believe the term they use,

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Speaker 1: and and maybe that means an attempt to weaken them

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Speaker 1: in the international sphere. I'm not I'm not a hundred

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Speaker 1: percent sure. Maybe there would be reparations involved of some sort. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But they also say that the facts themselves have been twisted.

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Speaker 1: Both sides of the group say that. Turkey says, it's

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Speaker 1: not it cannot be a genocide because the intent is

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Speaker 1: not there. Right, This is a preservation of the state. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: preservation of the state, and believing that they're fighting some

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Speaker 1: kind of guerrilla army or of some in some way,

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Speaker 1: that's how they're choosing to view it, right, And also

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Speaker 1: the argument that the numbers of deaths are wildly inflated,

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Speaker 1: that this is maybe three hundred thousand, not a one

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Speaker 1: point five million, and that furthermore, both sides were fighting

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Speaker 1: and more Muslims died than Armenian Christians. And it's strange because, uh,

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Speaker 1: what what we're finding is that although everyone on both

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Speaker 1: sides admits that horrific events occurred and hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people died, the question here is is hinging on

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Speaker 1: these these small differences based on the definition that the

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Speaker 1: u N and Limpkin gave. I was thinking about this earlier,

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Speaker 1: and I'd like, I'd like to hear your opinion on it, Matt,

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Speaker 1: and you too, know. So if we're thinking about atrocities

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Speaker 1: that occurred in World War two, uh, the deployment of

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Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, right, first and only time that happened catastrophic

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Speaker 1: h So that is still not considered a genocide. Right,

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Speaker 1: That's a very genocide of very specific type of crime.

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Speaker 1: But it's also coupled with the internment of Japanese of

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Speaker 1: American citizens of Japanese descent. I would be interested in

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Speaker 1: the in what the government would put forth as an

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Speaker 1: official statement of intent if they were going to be sought,

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Speaker 1: uh to admit to genocide during those attacks. Yeah, bring

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Speaker 1: it up for comparison and perspective. At this point, let's

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Speaker 1: go ahead and talk about the uh, the conspiratorial ideas

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Speaker 1: surrounding this um, the whole genocide notion. So we've got

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Speaker 1: one idea which the Turkish government says, which is that

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Speaker 1: this is an attack on Turkish society essentially. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and attarnishing. They think it's at tarnishing of their history. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Turkey is and enormously influential country in

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Speaker 1: that area of the world right now. It's swinging above

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Speaker 1: its weight class. It's the pivot between Europe and Asia,

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Speaker 1: between the Muslim world, well what's often called the Muslim

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Speaker 1: world and what's often called the Western world. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: it's in many countries opinion, a good country to be

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Speaker 1: on good terms with. Yes, and it has historically been

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Speaker 1: that way, that region at least right the gateway to

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Speaker 1: these So why but why would somebody be attacking it? Then?

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Speaker 1: Would they would this be a move if there if

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Speaker 1: what they're saying has any sand to it, would this

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Speaker 1: be a move to weaken their serenity or hedge hedgemonty

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Speaker 1: her perhaps? Unfortunately I can't answer that. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like that's what they perceive it

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Speaker 1: to be. Answer politically, Uh, yeah, guys, secret reveal here

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Speaker 1: in his other job, Matt is actually attache to the

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Speaker 1: local Turkish consulate. You got me. And there's another subject here.

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Speaker 1: It is Uh, it's very sensitive to say the least.

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Speaker 1: The country of Israel formed after World War Two, right, Uh?

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Speaker 1: And and those are just the facts, uh, still negotiating

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Speaker 1: borders on the official position Israel is that it uh

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Speaker 1: neither denies nor confirms whether the Armenian massacres were a genocide.

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Speaker 1: And and for many observers, of course, that seems to

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Speaker 1: be a strange thing because they experienced at least the

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Speaker 1: um the the worst genocide that we I think we

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Speaker 1: can currently cite, unless you maybe go back to treatment

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Speaker 1: of Native Americans in the United States. You that's an

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Speaker 1: interesting question. I'd like to I'd like to look back

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Speaker 1: further into that. I found some I found some fascinating

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Speaker 1: stuff though, about the expansion of Iran and into what

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Speaker 1: I call the stands, you know, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, all those uh.

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Speaker 1: And the only other country that officially also denies that

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Speaker 1: this was a genocide during the Ottoman Empire's time is

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Speaker 1: Azerbaijan shares a border with Iran. So how much of

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Speaker 1: how much of these calculations of staying on Turkey's good

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Speaker 1: side are ultimately about the seething, invisible proxy war that

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Speaker 1: is consuming the Middle East. Yeah, that that is a

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Speaker 1: great question. It's a question that unfortunately I don't know

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Speaker 1: the answer to. But what we do know is that,

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Speaker 1: regardless of what sort of label people will put on it,

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Speaker 1: at the very minimum, hundreds of thousands of people died.

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Speaker 1: Civilians died. I'm sure there are very many soldiers as well,

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Speaker 1: but you know, children, women, the elderly, regular people died,

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Speaker 1: Muslim as well as Christian. And uh, this is not

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Speaker 1: the this is not actually the first genocide in the

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Speaker 1: twenty century. There there are a couple of other arguable genocides,

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Speaker 1: and if human behavior is any sort of precedent, more

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Speaker 1: of these sorts of events will occur in the future. So, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: ben I I agree with you, more of this will

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Speaker 1: happen in the future. Um Tis, I guess it's what

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Speaker 1: it means to be human. There are they are dark

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Speaker 1: places that we go to. Um But yeah, so anyway,

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Speaker 1: all of that being said this. You know, this kind

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Speaker 1: of thing I think needs to be at least recognized

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Speaker 1: and remembered so that future generations don't forget these terrible

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Speaker 1: things that have happened in our past and could happen

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Speaker 1: if we are not vigilant um to make them stop.

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Speaker 1: That's why I think even giving this this event, this

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Speaker 1: type of event in name such as genocide, is so important. Um.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't know, it's tough to even talk

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Speaker 1: about this kind of subject, I think, right, it reminds

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Speaker 1: me of some of the quotations that we always hear

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Speaker 1: rephrase before, but somehow rarely followed. Those who do not

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Speaker 1: understand the past are doomed to repeat it. But there

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Speaker 1: is a little bit of light at the tunnel. Communication

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Speaker 1: sans technology is allowing more people to be more transparent

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Speaker 1: than ever before. Right And if you know, social media

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Speaker 1: gets a bad rap, and often it deserves that, right,

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Speaker 1: but the ability to communicate with one another across the

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Speaker 1: globe of could be could be something that goes a

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Speaker 1: long way towards preventing these kind of things from occurring invisibly.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean. You can only hope. You

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Speaker 1: can only hope. So if you want to learn more,

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Speaker 1: head on over to how Stuff Works dot com and

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00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: check out the article what was the first genocide in

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century? And as always, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for listening. For those of you who check out our

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Speaker 1: YouTube series, thanks for sharing that and talking with us

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Speaker 1: in the comments. Actually have to go later. I have

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Speaker 1: to go right now and check out some of the

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Speaker 1: comments on the gaia hypothesis, the idea we just released

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Speaker 1: the the concept that Earth itself is one gigantic living

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Speaker 1: super organism, which is not spoiler alert regarded as solid

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Speaker 1: science by its detractors, but such a inspiring, even beautiful idea.

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Speaker 1: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you

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Speaker 1: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can

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Speaker 1: can send us a good old fashioned email. We are

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Speaker 1: conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't

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