WEBVTT - From the Vault: Hyper-Real Religion 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:07.760 Hey, Welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.639 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.360 Time for a Vault episode. Going into the Vault, this 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.520 time to explore the world of religion. This episode originally 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.680 aired March twenty nine, and it is about the concept 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.159 of hyper real religion. Yeah, this is a This is 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.560 a fascinating topic. It gets into areas such as the 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:32.760 flying spaghetti monster, the Jedi religion, Jedi religion or sad 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.600 devotion to that ancient religion is no match for the 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.400 power of this space station. Is that body says? It 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:43.560 sounds right? Yeah. Basically, the idea of modern humans picking 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.239 and choosing their religions, not only from the religions of 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.479 the ancient world or or even new religions that have 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.199 popped up in recent decades, but just going straight to 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:56.480 the fictional world, going to fictional religions that that that 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:01.520 they know are fictional, and finding some sort of inspiration 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.039 or worldview in them, something they can latch onto. Yeah, 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.440 this is one of my favorites we've done. So we 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.880 hope you out there enjoyed this episode on hyper real religion. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.480 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:27.280 Works dot com. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.240 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.720 and I want to share with you a modern legend. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.080 You've probably heard this one before. It it's one of 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.520 the most persistent rumors of the modern age, the l 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:44.880 Ron Hubbard Robert A. Heinland bar bet. You know this one, Robert, Yes, Now, 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.240 I looked into it and I couldn't find any convincing 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.120 evidence that this bet ever actually took place, so it's 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:52.760 probably just more of a legend than than a real 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:57.000 historical account. But the legend I always heard goes something 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.840 like this, You've got l Ron Hubbard and Robert A. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.800 Island to science fiction authors of the twentieth century, and 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.480 they're sitting in a bar. They don't walk into a bar, 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:08.560 I guess. I suppose they have to walk into the 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.640 bar first if they don't take coverboards, or maybe they 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.040 power arm or stamp into the bar. But anyway, they're 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.720 in the bar. They're down in some Bruskis and this 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.480 is probably some time, I would guess in the late 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.600 nineteen forties, and they are discussing the best way to 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.880 make a ton of money, because let's face it, writing 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.120 science fiction doesn't always pay amazingly right, and at this 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.040 point in both of them in his career, they are 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.400 sci fi writers. Yeah, very much. Uh So Hubbard has 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.519 an opinion. L Ron Hubbard says, you know, the best 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.680 strategy is really to take advantage of the common people's 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:45.040 desire for transcendence and salvation. So he says, quote religion, 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.120 that's where the real money is. And Hubbard boasts that 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:53.040 he could invent a religion and make millions. Of course, 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.440 Hinland box at this, that sounds kind of extravagant. So 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.239 they make a bet can he do it? Can he 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.840 not do it? And by the end of the century 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.320 there are at least tens of thousands of Scientologists in 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.360 the world. The Church of Scientology claims millions of of 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.840 adherents those numbers. Who knows what the real numbers are, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:14.960 but it seems like at least tens of thousands. And 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:19.000 Scientology is the sci fi religion founded on the teachings 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.760 of l. Ron Hubbard. Yeah, and it has official religious 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:27.320 status in numerous countries. So even though this bat probably 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:28.840 did not take place, like it's one of those things 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.080 where yes, it could have if you really crunch it, 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.799 but there's an absolutely no documentation. Yeah, there's no good 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.080 evidence for it. And and in fact, we we we 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:39.840 probably really should emphasize that because apparently there in the 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.400 past there have been some legal actions against people who 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.760 promulgate this as if it were true. So probably not true. 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.880 But why is the rumors so persistent? Everybody's heard this, right, 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.200 I bet you sitting at home or sitting standing running 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.000 wherever you are listening, I bet you've heard some version 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.000 of this before, right, So you could chalk it up 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.280 to people's just gen real distaste for scientology. There there's 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.160 a lot of antipathy out there, right, there's no sortage 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.800 of scientology criticism, uh and and lampooning on the internet 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.560 these days. Right. But you could also say that this 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.280 kind of story sticks in the mind and merits repeating 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.160 simply because of the sheer audacity of it. It offends 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.800 our most basic sensibilities about what religion is and is 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:28.800 supposed to be creating a religion out of thin air, 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:31.960 just on a whim, coming up with a new religion. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:38.720 Something about it seems fiercely wrong, just nakedly perverse. Well, yeah, 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.520 I think I think so. I think yeah. On one hand, 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.200 it does seem like sheer audacity that somebody would just 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.000 create it wholesale. Though, of course, as we'll discuss to 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.200 a large extent, nobody creates a religion wholesale. You're building 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.200 it out of existing parts. It's all kind of like 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.360 that first Iron Man suit that that that Stark builds 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:00.120 in the first Iron Man filming, just builds out of 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.719 all the stuff that's laying around and then he uses 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.120 that to his advantage. And that's I think. I would 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.200 argue that that's what you see in most of these cases, 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:11.159 though the particular suit of religious armor changes depending on 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.040 the quality of the ingredients. Yeah. And I would say 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.120 this relates back to something we talked about in our 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.479 Techno Religion for the Masses episodes, which is that I 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:22.479 personally think that a lot of the power we attribute 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:27.120 to religion lies in our chronological alienation from its origins 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.520 and from its contents. I mean it comes down to 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.640 sort of like, what does someone want from a religion? 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.599 What does one want from a god? They want something 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.520 greater than themselves, something that stands outside of themselves. What 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.920 better way than to have something that stands outside of 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:45.680 not only your lifespan, but even your generation, outside of 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.680 your your your era, even you know it's calling to 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.680 you from a distant place slash time. Some of the 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.800 power comes from the mystery of its separation. That's sort 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:59.440 of what holiness is. It's way less impressive if it 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.120 seems to spring from the very ground we walk on 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:07.040 from day to day. And and yet all religions start somewhere. 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.880 No religion can have always been ancient, because every religion 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.080 that exists today, even the one you believe in, you 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.240 would you would have to admit, has an origin. It 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.200 started at some point people started believing in this thing. Uh. 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.279 Though most are probably not the result of a single 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:29.440 moment of creativity, whether inspired by gambling and Brusque's and whatnot. 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.360 I mean, they're probably from gradual evolutions of beliefs, right, Yeah, 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.600 new ideas that suddenly get picked up by, in many 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.400 cases a charismatic individual who is bringing this to people 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.640 or you know, it ties into UH two shifts and 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:48.320 changes in the structure of society and UH and then 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.400 in our sort of and then when you layer over 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.839 the mythic UH materials as well you're gonna throw in 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.320 some miracles. You're gonna throw in some some fantastic occurrences, 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.960 golden books falling out of the sky or emerging from 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.600 the ground. Right, Yeah, But this is what we want 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.320 to talk about today, right, So it's the beginnings of 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.720 religious movements, and especially on those that draw from sources 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.920 other than direct spiritual revelation. So you might have a 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:16.120 movement that starts with somebody thinks they've received a message 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.200 from God or from other worldly powers, from a supernatural agent, 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.480 and then they deliver that message and found a new religion. 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:25.800 You've got those, But we want to talk about what 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:31.280 happens when something that everybody recognizes as a fiction or 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.040 an in joke or a prank or a fan club 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:40.080 takes on the mantle of religion and genuine sanctity. Yeah, 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.080 when does it become an actual religion? And I know 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:44.720 that some of you might be thinking, well, what does 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:46.560 any of this have to do with science and the 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.680 flag of science that is up there over stuff to 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.760 buy your mind? Well a lot, actually, because because most 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:56.320 of what we're gonna talk about is occurring, if not 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.400 right now, then at least in the scientific age. And 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.920 I believe that that that the the age of science, 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.120 this age of a reason has a lot to do 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.200 with the emergence of hyper real religions. Absolutely, and I 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.720 think we would be remiss if we did not begin 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.880 this discussion with one of the most popular jokes turned 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:22.160 religions of our modern age, and that is postafarianism. Yes, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:23.640 and and I do want to just throw in real 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.920 quick this. Of course, the the word postafarianism is is 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.199 a play on Rastafarianism, and I do I do want 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:37.040 to just point out that we are aware that adherents 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.959 of the Rastafari faith uh often do not like the 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.280 term Rastafarianism. So it's kind of like there's a little 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:51.120 bit of of insult to Rastafari adherents built into postafarianism. 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.280 Well maybe for that, for that reason, we could avoid 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.040 it and just say flying spaghetti monsterism. Well we I 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:58.680 think we can refer to either just what I just 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.960 thought it was important to it ignore knowlledge that yes, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.880 uh uh, there's I don't think it was intentional, but 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:09.840 they're the postaparianism could be deemed offensive by some out there, certainly, 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.319 And if you're already lost, we need to back up 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.400 because In order for this to make sense, we've got 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.120 to start with a brief bit of historical context, especially 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.040 for those of you who live outside the United States 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:25.280 and aren't familiar with the school creationism controversy that's gone 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.160 on in the United States, I'd say mostly in the 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.960 last twenty years or so many twenty years. So in 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:35.640 the United States, we have a constitutional doctrine of separation 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.880 of church and State, and this is traditionally interpreted to 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.480 say that private citizens can believe whatever they want. You have, 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.560 whatever religious beliefs you want. An agents of the government 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.720 can't interfere with that, but also agents of the government 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:53.480 can't use their civil authority to punish or promote particular 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.600 religious ideas. Right. And for the most part, that works 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.680 pretty well, except where there's this crossover where on one 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.600 side the science book is saying, uh, there's this thing 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:06.040 called evolution, there were these things called dinosaurs. This is 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:10.920 the basic timeline as a science understands it versus more 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:16.360 fundamentalist and literal interpretations of biblical tradition. Right. And this 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.199 is the most common example in the United States of 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:24.160 a conflict between between separate between the sort of individual 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.600 beliefs of people who work for the government, and the 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.320 the idea that civil servants of the government shouldn't be 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.480 using their power to inflict their religious beliefs on other people. 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.880 Uh So, a large percent of Americans are what we 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.040 would call Young Earth creationists. And what does that mean. Well, 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:45.520 a gallop pole released in June found that forty two 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:49.400 percent of Americans said they agreed with the following statement 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.680 quote God created human beings pretty much in their present 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.320 form at one time within the last ten thousand years 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.520 or so, which is of course complete nonsense, right, And 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:03.960 if you're listening to this podcast, I'm just gonna go 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.920 and assume you do not believe this. Yeah, as you 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.120 could guess, this entails a rejection of biological evolution and 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:15.000 common descent usually, uh, pretty much all of geology, radiometric dating, 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:19.599 all mainstream scientific thinking about fossils and paleontology, probably a 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.280 lot of astronomy and astrophysics too, for example, the creation 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.000 of the Solar System and the formation of galaxies, and 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.800 probably plenty of other things. You could just generally say 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.960 that Young Earth creationism is a belief that encounters generalized 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:37.200 to difficulty when held alongside a scientific picture of our world. Yeah, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.280 it's the the rejection of the best modern scientific understanding 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.120 of how the world works, and the acceptance of and 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:50.360 the reliance upon a sort of modern untangling of ancient 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.120 Babylonian right. So, but the problem is plenty of civil 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.320 servants in the United States, especially people who might be 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.880 teachers in public schools or a proving curricular or textbook 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.720 selection for public schools, hold these beliefs themselves, and they 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.680 sometimes try to promote these beliefs and their consequences in 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.200 what are supposed to be secular, religiously neutral classes for 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.040 all students. And this can take a lot of forms. 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.000 At one extreme, it might have biology classes teaching about 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.679 the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark as an alternative 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:27.040 evolutionary theory. At the other end, it might be less 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.840 overt than that, and it might just insist on biology 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:34.480 classes including materials prepared by creationists that sort of cast vague, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.600 unfounded doubts on modern biology, or that uh teach children 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:42.800 scientifically false arguments against evolution, like you know, things you've 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.840 heard before, like there are no transitional fossils and stuff 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.320 like that. And obviously this has led to lots of 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.720 social conflict, big public debates and lots of court cases. 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.320 One example of such a court case occurs very close 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.480 to home for us here in Cobb County, Georgia, which 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.480 is includes northern suburbs of Atlanta. And on March twenty, 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.240 two thousand to the public school officials in Cobb County 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.480 approved a measure requiring biology textbooks to wear a sticker 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.960 on the inside cover that has the following statement. It says, 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.400 evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.800 of living living things. Uh And in two thousand five, 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:24.120 this was ruled unconstitutional by U. S District Judge Clarence Cooper, 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.440 who said of this ruling quote, by denigrating evolution, the 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.400 school board appears to be endorsing the well known prevailing 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:35.280 alternative theory creationism or variations thereof, even though the sticker 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.199 does not specifically reference the alternative theories. Uh and this 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.800 gets us back to the monster in question, the spaghetti monster. 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.120 Where where did this come from? Well? This originates with 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:51.040 a protest, Yeah, a protest against the inclusion of statements 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.960 like the stickers like this in science textbooks. Like the 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.400 basic idea here is Hey, if this nonsense is going 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.800 to be presented as an alter native to our science. 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.920 How about this nonsense? How about I just blatantly make 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.400 something up, just completely off the top of my head, 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.520 just the craziest thing you can imagine. Let's put that 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.160 in there as well. Yeah, and this of course takes 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.000 this to Kansas. Yeah to two thousand five, when the 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.880 Kansas State Board of Education had decided to allow intelligent 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.520 design the sort of a moniker of creationism, you might 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.560 call it, like a marketing term to make it seem 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:32.400 more scientific, like to add a lexicon of scientific vocabulary 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.880 to uh, to creationism. And they said that they wanted 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.400 to introduce this into the curriculum as an as an 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:42.560 alternative to evolution, you know, teach both theories. So uh. 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.800 Then twenty five year old physics graduate Bobby Henderson wrote 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.640 what is known as the Open Letter to the Kansas 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.400 School Board, published online in two thousand five, to present 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.040 his vision for religious inclusivity in the science classroom. Robert, 0:14:58.080 --> 0:14:59.760 would you like to read a select quote from the 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:04.080 le I shall quote. I am writing you with much concern, 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.120 after having read of your hearing, to decide whether the 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.240 alternative theory of intelligent design should be taught along with 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.120 the theory of evolution. Let us remember that there are 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.840 multiple theories of intelligent design. I and many others around 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.560 the world are of the strong belief that the universe 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:24.160 was created by a flying spaghetti monster. Right. So, throughout 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.240 this letter, Henderson goes on to critique and satirize the 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.360 intelligent design arguments by showing how the claims of flying 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.040 spaghetti monsterism, though they might appear to conflict with scientists 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.600 around the world, don't actually because the flying spaghetti monster 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.120 reaches out with his newly appendages to tweak the results 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.840 of experiments so that we will be tricked into believing 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.160 in an evolutionary model of the old Earth. Uh. And 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.200 he goes on also to insist that when flying spaghetti 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.160 monsterism is taught in science classrooms, the teacher must wear 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:59.320 full pirate regalia. Quote. The concise explanation for this is 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.000 that he becomes angry if we don't. Yeah. So, and 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.760 of course this leads to um wonderful depictions of the 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.960 flying spaghetti monster, yeah, of which you've all seen before, right, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.840 the meme very much. It started as a bit of satire, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:19.440 a joke on this religious social movement that the author 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.080 of this letter opposed, but it really took on a 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.120 life of its own. It became a meme, it became 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.640 picked up on the internet. So there's artwork, Like you said, 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:32.080 there's uh, it's a whole living library of self referential 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.480 humor based around this original idea of a flying spaghetti monster, 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:42.280 including actually becoming some form of church. Yeah. I mean 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.160 it's interesting to look at the evolution of the joke. 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.960 I mean I'm often just taken by the visual depictions 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:51.680 because I feel like those really pick up a lot 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.440 of steam. And the spaghetti monster itself is funny looking. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.560 It kind of looks like testicles, So it's it's it's 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.400 inherently goofy. It has meatballs, by the way, it's a 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:03.880 it's a large pile of spaghetti flying through the sky 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.440 with eyes and meatballs generally too, and and and yeah, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.199 to your point, like a lot of it's kind of 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:14.280 a community assembled mythos as well, like everyone, all sorts 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.359 of little bits and pieces are thrown in kind of 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.200 willy nilly to create this overall faith. And it's one 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.920 of those the theology is not all top down, sort 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.199 of bottom up theology. Yeah, and it's it's one of 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:27.959 those jokes that I think over the years, Like when 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:29.879 I first heard it, I was kind of like, didn't 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:31.600 get the joke, and then I got the joke, and 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.240 I'm like, Okay, I get it. But then the joke, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.040 it's the joke just keeps going. People keep telling it 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.760 to the point where it's not really that funny anymore. 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.359 But you know, it's kind of like having that that 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.000 friend in high school who loves Monty Python so much 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.080 that they won't Yeah, they're just fit a reference or 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.919 half a skit into every conversation. Like that's kind of 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.000 how I feel about Pastafari. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.400 know exactly what you mean. And also I would say 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:03.280 that in some cases it evolved from a specific satire 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:08.080 of of teaching of Young Earth creationism in public schools 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:12.000 to become a more general critique of of religion across 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.240 the board, which I think is not necessarily what the 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.920 author originally intended, right, But yeah, that's definitely becomes kind 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:23.200 of a you know, an atheistic protest religion, um, and 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.920 it serves a useful purpose there, I think, you know it. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:32.040 It's it. It continually argues, hey, um, why do we 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.320 believe that in the things we believe in. You know, 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.760 why is this valuable? And this isn't um and you know, 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.520 as a joke goes it is it has proven to 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.200 be effective, you know, in the way that jokes can 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.720 often tear down the most formidable walls in our society 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.000 but also piss people off royally. Now, I can take 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:53.639 the other side for a second and say that I 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:58.040 can understand why some religious people would be less than 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.520 impressed with this joke as it exists today, because, let's 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.560 be fair, in a lot of cases, it does seem 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.160 to represent a just sort of generalized critique, and critique 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:11.600 might be a generous word of of religion without much 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.639 attempt to understand people's religions or doctrines and the values 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.639 they provide to the people that hold them. Yeah, it 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.920 is you can just look at as a kind of shallow, 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:26.040 outsider mockery. Yeah, and I and I definitely, you know, 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.080 I can definitely relate to some of those feelings about it, 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.439 you know, over the years, because at times I have 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.560 felt like, not only is it a joke that I 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.280 maybe don't don't get or I don't find its funny, 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.080 but yeah, I could also see where it's a little 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.639 a little offensive, you know, because you're it's kind of 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.159 like you're taking just three minutes to throw up a 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:49.399 spaghetti monster image to rebuke a person's lifetime of faith, 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.800 you know, to to rebuke their their their cultural heritage 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:57.040 in many cases. But as we said, this is becoming 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.000 a new heritage of its own. And I'm I'm curious 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.720 us to see what the Church of the Flying Spaghetti 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.040 Monster looks like in twenty years. Yeah. I think for 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.159 the most part, for most people, it's it's remains that 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.000 bumper sticker level of involvement. You know, it is just 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:14.840 something you throw up on social media or stick on 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.719 the back of your car. Other people have taken it 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.480 to two greater extremes, going in and trying to get 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.840 their official um you know state I D with a 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:24.600 colander on their head, which is of course one of 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:29.040 the other articles of faith for the adherents, and UH 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.760 and other folks have pushed for official religious status, which 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.760 is is really taking it to the next level, saying 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.359 not only is our joke religion jokey, but it is 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.600 actually a religion, or it is as real religion as 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.840 your religion, and we want the government to recognize that fact, 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.520 and I think there are some governments that have recognized it, right, Yeah, 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.280 at least the Netherlands and New Zealand to to some degree. 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.879 That the Netherlands where that was where we saw the 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.320 most recent headlines about it, and apparently they had to 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.320 they had to prove that it wasn't just a fad, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.399 that it was an actual thing that people believed in 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.359 and that they had like a marriage ritual, uh, that 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:10.280 sort of thing, so that it was it's the kind 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.760 of thing that people are invested in enough that it is, 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.159 you know, potentially a part of your life. Yeah, and 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:20.040 this leads us to the realization that a religion need 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.359 not be ancient in order to be followed. So I 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.199 stand by what I said earlier about a lot of 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.000 the aesthetic power of religion does seem to come from 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.600 its antiquity and its chronological alienation, the sort of alien 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.240 holiness of the distant past. But this doesn't mean you 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.760 can't create religions in the modern day that gain a following. Yeah. 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:45.880 I mean we've already mentioned Rastafari, which is an abrahammock religion, uh, 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:47.920 you know, certainly with a lot of elements that are 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:52.840 based in deep history. But it also venerated uh then 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:57.560 Emperor of Ethiopia highly Selassi, you know. And it's it's 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.280 it's certainly a religion I would love to to look 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:02.520 at in greater depth at some point in the future. 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.159 But yeah, you have a situation where it's it's in 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.280 the past, it's it's taking place in the present. And 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.720 I mean, to have your Messiah live and and die 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.000 within the lifespan of the faith, uh and to see 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.920 that sort of happen in in recent history, it's fascinating. Well, 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:22.560 how about how about Joseph Smith and the Latter day Saints. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.240 Oh yeah, I mean there's another good one. Um, it's 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.280 the origins date back around eighteen thirty. This is a 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:33.840 millennialist religion that preach the impending second Coming, continuing revelations 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.520 and uh uh an identity and values that I guess 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.480 you'd say we're more grounded in the temporary setting. So 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.920 you know, it's America. It's there's a modern cosmology, very 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.880 American religion. Yeah, very much. So. If if you don't 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:48.800 realize that this is the name, the official name of 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:50.800 the Mormons, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of the 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.480 Latter day Saints, and it too, of course, sprang up 0:22:54.760 --> 0:23:00.119 around a single charismatic individual. And uh, it's it's it's 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.000