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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time for a Vault episode. Going into the Vault, this

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Speaker 1: time to explore the world of religion. This episode originally

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Speaker 1: aired March twenty nine, and it is about the concept

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Speaker 1: of hyper real religion. Yeah, this is a This is

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Speaker 1: a fascinating topic. It gets into areas such as the

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Speaker 1: flying spaghetti monster, the Jedi religion, Jedi religion or sad

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Speaker 1: devotion to that ancient religion is no match for the

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Speaker 1: power of this space station. Is that body says? It

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Speaker 1: sounds right? Yeah. Basically, the idea of modern humans picking

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Speaker 1: and choosing their religions, not only from the religions of

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Speaker 1: the ancient world or or even new religions that have

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Speaker 1: popped up in recent decades, but just going straight to

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Speaker 1: the fictional world, going to fictional religions that that that

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Speaker 1: they know are fictional, and finding some sort of inspiration

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Speaker 1: or worldview in them, something they can latch onto. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is one of my favorites we've done. So we

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Speaker 1: hope you out there enjoyed this episode on hyper real religion.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick,

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Speaker 1: and I want to share with you a modern legend.

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Speaker 1: You've probably heard this one before. It it's one of

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Speaker 1: the most persistent rumors of the modern age, the l

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Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard Robert A. Heinland bar bet. You know this one, Robert, Yes, Now,

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Speaker 1: I looked into it and I couldn't find any convincing

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Speaker 1: evidence that this bet ever actually took place, so it's

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Speaker 1: probably just more of a legend than than a real

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Speaker 1: historical account. But the legend I always heard goes something

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Speaker 1: like this, You've got l Ron Hubbard and Robert A.

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Speaker 1: Island to science fiction authors of the twentieth century, and

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Speaker 1: they're sitting in a bar. They don't walk into a bar,

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Speaker 1: I guess. I suppose they have to walk into the

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Speaker 1: bar first if they don't take coverboards, or maybe they

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Speaker 1: power arm or stamp into the bar. But anyway, they're

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Speaker 1: in the bar. They're down in some Bruskis and this

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Speaker 1: is probably some time, I would guess in the late

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties, and they are discussing the best way to

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Speaker 1: make a ton of money, because let's face it, writing

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Speaker 1: science fiction doesn't always pay amazingly right, and at this

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Speaker 1: point in both of them in his career, they are

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Speaker 1: sci fi writers. Yeah, very much. Uh So Hubbard has

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Speaker 1: an opinion. L Ron Hubbard says, you know, the best

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Speaker 1: strategy is really to take advantage of the common people's

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Speaker 1: desire for transcendence and salvation. So he says, quote religion,

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Speaker 1: that's where the real money is. And Hubbard boasts that

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Speaker 1: he could invent a religion and make millions. Of course,

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Speaker 1: Hinland box at this, that sounds kind of extravagant. So

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Speaker 1: they make a bet can he do it? Can he

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Speaker 1: not do it? And by the end of the century

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Speaker 1: there are at least tens of thousands of Scientologists in

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Speaker 1: the world. The Church of Scientology claims millions of of

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Speaker 1: adherents those numbers. Who knows what the real numbers are,

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Speaker 1: but it seems like at least tens of thousands. And

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Speaker 1: Scientology is the sci fi religion founded on the teachings

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Speaker 1: of l. Ron Hubbard. Yeah, and it has official religious

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Speaker 1: status in numerous countries. So even though this bat probably

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Speaker 1: did not take place, like it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where yes, it could have if you really crunch it,

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Speaker 1: but there's an absolutely no documentation. Yeah, there's no good

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Speaker 1: evidence for it. And and in fact, we we we

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Speaker 1: probably really should emphasize that because apparently there in the

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Speaker 1: past there have been some legal actions against people who

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Speaker 1: promulgate this as if it were true. So probably not true.

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Speaker 1: But why is the rumors so persistent? Everybody's heard this, right,

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Speaker 1: I bet you sitting at home or sitting standing running

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Speaker 1: wherever you are listening, I bet you've heard some version

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Speaker 1: of this before, right, So you could chalk it up

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Speaker 1: to people's just gen real distaste for scientology. There there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of antipathy out there, right, there's no sortage

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Speaker 1: of scientology criticism, uh and and lampooning on the internet

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Speaker 1: these days. Right. But you could also say that this

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Speaker 1: kind of story sticks in the mind and merits repeating

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Speaker 1: simply because of the sheer audacity of it. It offends

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Speaker 1: our most basic sensibilities about what religion is and is

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Speaker 1: supposed to be creating a religion out of thin air,

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Speaker 1: just on a whim, coming up with a new religion.

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Speaker 1: Something about it seems fiercely wrong, just nakedly perverse. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I think so. I think yeah. On one hand,

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Speaker 1: it does seem like sheer audacity that somebody would just

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Speaker 1: create it wholesale. Though, of course, as we'll discuss to

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Speaker 1: a large extent, nobody creates a religion wholesale. You're building

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Speaker 1: it out of existing parts. It's all kind of like

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Speaker 1: that first Iron Man suit that that that Stark builds

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Speaker 1: in the first Iron Man filming, just builds out of

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Speaker 1: all the stuff that's laying around and then he uses

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Speaker 1: that to his advantage. And that's I think. I would

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Speaker 1: argue that that's what you see in most of these cases,

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Speaker 1: though the particular suit of religious armor changes depending on

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Speaker 1: the quality of the ingredients. Yeah. And I would say

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Speaker 1: this relates back to something we talked about in our

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Speaker 1: Techno Religion for the Masses episodes, which is that I

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Speaker 1: personally think that a lot of the power we attribute

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Speaker 1: to religion lies in our chronological alienation from its origins

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Speaker 1: and from its contents. I mean it comes down to

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Speaker 1: sort of like, what does someone want from a religion?

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Speaker 1: What does one want from a god? They want something

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Speaker 1: greater than themselves, something that stands outside of themselves. What

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Speaker 1: better way than to have something that stands outside of

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Speaker 1: not only your lifespan, but even your generation, outside of

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Speaker 1: your your your era, even you know it's calling to

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Speaker 1: you from a distant place slash time. Some of the

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Speaker 1: power comes from the mystery of its separation. That's sort

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Speaker 1: of what holiness is. It's way less impressive if it

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Speaker 1: seems to spring from the very ground we walk on

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Speaker 1: from day to day. And and yet all religions start somewhere.

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Speaker 1: No religion can have always been ancient, because every religion

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Speaker 1: that exists today, even the one you believe in, you

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Speaker 1: would you would have to admit, has an origin. It

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Speaker 1: started at some point people started believing in this thing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Though most are probably not the result of a single

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Speaker 1: moment of creativity, whether inspired by gambling and Brusque's and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're probably from gradual evolutions of beliefs, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: new ideas that suddenly get picked up by, in many

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Speaker 1: cases a charismatic individual who is bringing this to people

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Speaker 1: or you know, it ties into UH two shifts and

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Speaker 1: changes in the structure of society and UH and then

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Speaker 1: in our sort of and then when you layer over

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Speaker 1: the mythic UH materials as well you're gonna throw in

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Speaker 1: some miracles. You're gonna throw in some some fantastic occurrences,

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Speaker 1: golden books falling out of the sky or emerging from

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Speaker 1: the ground. Right, Yeah, But this is what we want

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Speaker 1: to talk about today, right, So it's the beginnings of

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Speaker 1: religious movements, and especially on those that draw from sources

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Speaker 1: other than direct spiritual revelation. So you might have a

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Speaker 1: movement that starts with somebody thinks they've received a message

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Speaker 1: from God or from other worldly powers, from a supernatural agent,

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Speaker 1: and then they deliver that message and found a new religion.

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Speaker 1: You've got those, But we want to talk about what

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Speaker 1: happens when something that everybody recognizes as a fiction or

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Speaker 1: an in joke or a prank or a fan club

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Speaker 1: takes on the mantle of religion and genuine sanctity. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when does it become an actual religion? And I know

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Speaker 1: that some of you might be thinking, well, what does

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Speaker 1: any of this have to do with science and the

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Speaker 1: flag of science that is up there over stuff to

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Speaker 1: buy your mind? Well a lot, actually, because because most

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Speaker 1: of what we're gonna talk about is occurring, if not

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Speaker 1: right now, then at least in the scientific age. And

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Speaker 1: I believe that that that the the age of science,

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Speaker 1: this age of a reason has a lot to do

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Speaker 1: with the emergence of hyper real religions. Absolutely, and I

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Speaker 1: think we would be remiss if we did not begin

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Speaker 1: this discussion with one of the most popular jokes turned

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Speaker 1: religions of our modern age, and that is postafarianism. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and and I do want to just throw in real

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Speaker 1: quick this. Of course, the the word postafarianism is is

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Speaker 1: a play on Rastafarianism, and I do I do want

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Speaker 1: to just point out that we are aware that adherents

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Speaker 1: of the Rastafari faith uh often do not like the

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Speaker 1: term Rastafarianism. So it's kind of like there's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of of insult to Rastafari adherents built into postafarianism.

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Speaker 1: Well maybe for that, for that reason, we could avoid

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Speaker 1: it and just say flying spaghetti monsterism. Well we I

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Speaker 1: think we can refer to either just what I just

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Speaker 1: thought it was important to it ignore knowlledge that yes,

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Speaker 1: uh uh, there's I don't think it was intentional, but

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Speaker 1: they're the postaparianism could be deemed offensive by some out there, certainly,

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Speaker 1: And if you're already lost, we need to back up

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Speaker 1: because In order for this to make sense, we've got

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Speaker 1: to start with a brief bit of historical context, especially

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Speaker 1: for those of you who live outside the United States

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Speaker 1: and aren't familiar with the school creationism controversy that's gone

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Speaker 1: on in the United States, I'd say mostly in the

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Speaker 1: last twenty years or so many twenty years. So in

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Speaker 1: the United States, we have a constitutional doctrine of separation

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Speaker 1: of church and State, and this is traditionally interpreted to

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Speaker 1: say that private citizens can believe whatever they want. You have,

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Speaker 1: whatever religious beliefs you want. An agents of the government

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Speaker 1: can't interfere with that, but also agents of the government

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Speaker 1: can't use their civil authority to punish or promote particular

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Speaker 1: religious ideas. Right. And for the most part, that works

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Speaker 1: pretty well, except where there's this crossover where on one

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Speaker 1: side the science book is saying, uh, there's this thing

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Speaker 1: called evolution, there were these things called dinosaurs. This is

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Speaker 1: the basic timeline as a science understands it versus more

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Speaker 1: fundamentalist and literal interpretations of biblical tradition. Right. And this

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Speaker 1: is the most common example in the United States of

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Speaker 1: a conflict between between separate between the sort of individual

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Speaker 1: beliefs of people who work for the government, and the

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Speaker 1: the idea that civil servants of the government shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: using their power to inflict their religious beliefs on other people.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, a large percent of Americans are what we

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Speaker 1: would call Young Earth creationists. And what does that mean. Well,

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Speaker 1: a gallop pole released in June found that forty two

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Speaker 1: percent of Americans said they agreed with the following statement

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Speaker 1: quote God created human beings pretty much in their present

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Speaker 1: form at one time within the last ten thousand years

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Speaker 1: or so, which is of course complete nonsense, right, And

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Speaker 1: if you're listening to this podcast, I'm just gonna go

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Speaker 1: and assume you do not believe this. Yeah, as you

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Speaker 1: could guess, this entails a rejection of biological evolution and

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Speaker 1: common descent usually, uh, pretty much all of geology, radiometric dating,

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Speaker 1: all mainstream scientific thinking about fossils and paleontology, probably a

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Speaker 1: lot of astronomy and astrophysics too, for example, the creation

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Speaker 1: of the Solar System and the formation of galaxies, and

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Speaker 1: probably plenty of other things. You could just generally say

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Speaker 1: that Young Earth creationism is a belief that encounters generalized

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Speaker 1: to difficulty when held alongside a scientific picture of our world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's the the rejection of the best modern scientific understanding

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Speaker 1: of how the world works, and the acceptance of and

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Speaker 1: the reliance upon a sort of modern untangling of ancient

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Speaker 1: Babylonian right. So, but the problem is plenty of civil

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Speaker 1: servants in the United States, especially people who might be

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Speaker 1: teachers in public schools or a proving curricular or textbook

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Speaker 1: selection for public schools, hold these beliefs themselves, and they

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Speaker 1: sometimes try to promote these beliefs and their consequences in

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Speaker 1: what are supposed to be secular, religiously neutral classes for

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Speaker 1: all students. And this can take a lot of forms.

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Speaker 1: At one extreme, it might have biology classes teaching about

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Speaker 1: the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark as an alternative

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Speaker 1: evolutionary theory. At the other end, it might be less

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Speaker 1: overt than that, and it might just insist on biology

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Speaker 1: classes including materials prepared by creationists that sort of cast vague,

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Speaker 1: unfounded doubts on modern biology, or that uh teach children

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Speaker 1: scientifically false arguments against evolution, like you know, things you've

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Speaker 1: heard before, like there are no transitional fossils and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. And obviously this has led to lots of

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Speaker 1: social conflict, big public debates and lots of court cases.

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Speaker 1: One example of such a court case occurs very close

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Speaker 1: to home for us here in Cobb County, Georgia, which

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Speaker 1: is includes northern suburbs of Atlanta. And on March twenty,

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Speaker 1: two thousand to the public school officials in Cobb County

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Speaker 1: approved a measure requiring biology textbooks to wear a sticker

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Speaker 1: on the inside cover that has the following statement. It says,

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Speaker 1: evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin

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Speaker 1: of living living things. Uh And in two thousand five,

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Speaker 1: this was ruled unconstitutional by U. S District Judge Clarence Cooper,

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Speaker 1: who said of this ruling quote, by denigrating evolution, the

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Speaker 1: school board appears to be endorsing the well known prevailing

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Speaker 1: alternative theory creationism or variations thereof, even though the sticker

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Speaker 1: does not specifically reference the alternative theories. Uh and this

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Speaker 1: gets us back to the monster in question, the spaghetti monster.

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Speaker 1: Where where did this come from? Well? This originates with

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Speaker 1: a protest, Yeah, a protest against the inclusion of statements

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Speaker 1: like the stickers like this in science textbooks. Like the

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Speaker 1: basic idea here is Hey, if this nonsense is going

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Speaker 1: to be presented as an alter native to our science.

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Speaker 1: How about this nonsense? How about I just blatantly make

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Speaker 1: something up, just completely off the top of my head,

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Speaker 1: just the craziest thing you can imagine. Let's put that

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Speaker 1: in there as well. Yeah, and this of course takes

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Speaker 1: this to Kansas. Yeah to two thousand five, when the

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Speaker 1: Kansas State Board of Education had decided to allow intelligent

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Speaker 1: design the sort of a moniker of creationism, you might

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Speaker 1: call it, like a marketing term to make it seem

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Speaker 1: more scientific, like to add a lexicon of scientific vocabulary

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Speaker 1: to uh, to creationism. And they said that they wanted

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Speaker 1: to introduce this into the curriculum as an as an

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Speaker 1: alternative to evolution, you know, teach both theories. So uh.

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Speaker 1: Then twenty five year old physics graduate Bobby Henderson wrote

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Speaker 1: what is known as the Open Letter to the Kansas

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Speaker 1: School Board, published online in two thousand five, to present

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Speaker 1: his vision for religious inclusivity in the science classroom. Robert,

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Speaker 1: would you like to read a select quote from the

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Speaker 1: le I shall quote. I am writing you with much concern,

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Speaker 1: after having read of your hearing, to decide whether the

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Speaker 1: alternative theory of intelligent design should be taught along with

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Speaker 1: the theory of evolution. Let us remember that there are

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Speaker 1: multiple theories of intelligent design. I and many others around

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Speaker 1: the world are of the strong belief that the universe

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Speaker 1: was created by a flying spaghetti monster. Right. So, throughout

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Speaker 1: this letter, Henderson goes on to critique and satirize the

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Speaker 1: intelligent design arguments by showing how the claims of flying

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Speaker 1: spaghetti monsterism, though they might appear to conflict with scientists

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Speaker 1: around the world, don't actually because the flying spaghetti monster

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Speaker 1: reaches out with his newly appendages to tweak the results

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Speaker 1: of experiments so that we will be tricked into believing

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Speaker 1: in an evolutionary model of the old Earth. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: he goes on also to insist that when flying spaghetti

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Speaker 1: monsterism is taught in science classrooms, the teacher must wear

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Speaker 1: full pirate regalia. Quote. The concise explanation for this is

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Speaker 1: that he becomes angry if we don't. Yeah. So, and

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Speaker 1: of course this leads to um wonderful depictions of the

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Speaker 1: flying spaghetti monster, yeah, of which you've all seen before, right,

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Speaker 1: the meme very much. It started as a bit of satire,

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Speaker 1: a joke on this religious social movement that the author

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Speaker 1: of this letter opposed, but it really took on a

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Speaker 1: life of its own. It became a meme, it became

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Speaker 1: picked up on the internet. So there's artwork, Like you said,

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Speaker 1: there's uh, it's a whole living library of self referential

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Speaker 1: humor based around this original idea of a flying spaghetti monster,

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Speaker 1: including actually becoming some form of church. Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to look at the evolution of the joke.

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm often just taken by the visual depictions

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Speaker 1: because I feel like those really pick up a lot

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Speaker 1: of steam. And the spaghetti monster itself is funny looking.

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Speaker 1: It kind of looks like testicles, So it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: inherently goofy. It has meatballs, by the way, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a large pile of spaghetti flying through the sky

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Speaker 1: with eyes and meatballs generally too, and and and yeah,

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Speaker 1: to your point, like a lot of it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a community assembled mythos as well, like everyone, all sorts

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Speaker 1: of little bits and pieces are thrown in kind of

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Speaker 1: willy nilly to create this overall faith. And it's one

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Speaker 1: of those the theology is not all top down, sort

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Speaker 1: of bottom up theology. Yeah, and it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: those jokes that I think over the years, Like when

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Speaker 1: I first heard it, I was kind of like, didn't

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Speaker 1: get the joke, and then I got the joke, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, I get it. But then the joke,

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Speaker 1: it's the joke just keeps going. People keep telling it

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Speaker 1: to the point where it's not really that funny anymore.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's kind of like having that that

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Speaker 1: friend in high school who loves Monty Python so much

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Speaker 1: that they won't Yeah, they're just fit a reference or

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Speaker 1: half a skit into every conversation. Like that's kind of

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Speaker 1: how I feel about Pastafari. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know exactly what you mean. And also I would say

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Speaker 1: that in some cases it evolved from a specific satire

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Speaker 1: of of teaching of Young Earth creationism in public schools

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Speaker 1: to become a more general critique of of religion across

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Speaker 1: the board, which I think is not necessarily what the

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Speaker 1: author originally intended, right, But yeah, that's definitely becomes kind

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Speaker 1: of a you know, an atheistic protest religion, um, and

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Speaker 1: it serves a useful purpose there, I think, you know it.

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Speaker 1: It's it. It continually argues, hey, um, why do we

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Speaker 1: believe that in the things we believe in. You know,

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Speaker 1: why is this valuable? And this isn't um and you know,

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Speaker 1: as a joke goes it is it has proven to

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Speaker 1: be effective, you know, in the way that jokes can

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Speaker 1: often tear down the most formidable walls in our society

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Speaker 1: but also piss people off royally. Now, I can take

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Speaker 1: the other side for a second and say that I

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Speaker 1: can understand why some religious people would be less than

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Speaker 1: impressed with this joke as it exists today, because, let's

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Speaker 1: be fair, in a lot of cases, it does seem

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Speaker 1: to represent a just sort of generalized critique, and critique

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Speaker 1: might be a generous word of of religion without much

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Speaker 1: attempt to understand people's religions or doctrines and the values

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Speaker 1: they provide to the people that hold them. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is you can just look at as a kind of shallow,

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Speaker 1: outsider mockery. Yeah, and I and I definitely, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can definitely relate to some of those feelings about it,

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Speaker 1: you know, over the years, because at times I have

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Speaker 1: felt like, not only is it a joke that I

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Speaker 1: maybe don't don't get or I don't find its funny,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I could also see where it's a little

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Speaker 1: a little offensive, you know, because you're it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like you're taking just three minutes to throw up a

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Speaker 1: spaghetti monster image to rebuke a person's lifetime of faith,

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Speaker 1: you know, to to rebuke their their their cultural heritage

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Speaker 1: in many cases. But as we said, this is becoming

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Speaker 1: a new heritage of its own. And I'm I'm curious

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Speaker 1: us to see what the Church of the Flying Spaghetti

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Speaker 1: Monster looks like in twenty years. Yeah. I think for

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Speaker 1: the most part, for most people, it's it's remains that

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Speaker 1: bumper sticker level of involvement. You know, it is just

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Speaker 1: something you throw up on social media or stick on

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Speaker 1: the back of your car. Other people have taken it

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Speaker 1: to two greater extremes, going in and trying to get

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Speaker 1: their official um you know state I D with a

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Speaker 1: colander on their head, which is of course one of

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Speaker 1: the other articles of faith for the adherents, and UH

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Speaker 1: and other folks have pushed for official religious status, which

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Speaker 1: is is really taking it to the next level, saying

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Speaker 1: not only is our joke religion jokey, but it is

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Speaker 1: actually a religion, or it is as real religion as

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Speaker 1: your religion, and we want the government to recognize that fact,

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Speaker 1: and I think there are some governments that have recognized it, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at least the Netherlands and New Zealand to to some degree.

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Speaker 1: That the Netherlands where that was where we saw the

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Speaker 1: most recent headlines about it, and apparently they had to

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Speaker 1: they had to prove that it wasn't just a fad,

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Speaker 1: that it was an actual thing that people believed in

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Speaker 1: and that they had like a marriage ritual, uh, that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing, so that it was it's the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that people are invested in enough that it is,

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Speaker 1: you know, potentially a part of your life. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this leads us to the realization that a religion need

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Speaker 1: not be ancient in order to be followed. So I

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Speaker 1: stand by what I said earlier about a lot of

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Speaker 1: the aesthetic power of religion does seem to come from

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Speaker 1: its antiquity and its chronological alienation, the sort of alien

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Speaker 1: holiness of the distant past. But this doesn't mean you

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Speaker 1: can't create religions in the modern day that gain a following. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean we've already mentioned Rastafari, which is an abrahammock religion, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, certainly with a lot of elements that are

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Speaker 1: based in deep history. But it also venerated uh then

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Speaker 1: Emperor of Ethiopia highly Selassi, you know. And it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's certainly a religion I would love to to look

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Speaker 1: at in greater depth at some point in the future.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, you have a situation where it's it's in

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Speaker 1: the past, it's it's taking place in the present. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, to have your Messiah live and and die

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Speaker 1: within the lifespan of the faith, uh and to see

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Speaker 1: that sort of happen in in recent history, it's fascinating. Well,

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Speaker 1: how about how about Joseph Smith and the Latter day Saints.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean there's another good one. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: the origins date back around eighteen thirty. This is a

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Speaker 1: millennialist religion that preach the impending second Coming, continuing revelations

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Speaker 1: and uh uh an identity and values that I guess

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Speaker 1: you'd say we're more grounded in the temporary setting. So

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Speaker 1: you know, it's America. It's there's a modern cosmology, very

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Speaker 1: American religion. Yeah, very much. So. If if you don't

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Speaker 1: realize that this is the name, the official name of

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Speaker 1: the Mormons, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of the

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Speaker 1: Latter day Saints, and it too, of course, sprang up

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Speaker 1: around a single charismatic individual. And uh, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: actually a very interesting religion to look at in terms

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Speaker 1: of science as well, um, in the in since it's

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Speaker 1: since it is more of a more closely tied to

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Speaker 1: our scientific age, you do find elements of it that

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Speaker 1: are that that conflict less with modern scientific cosmology, such

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Speaker 1: as the the idea that there are other planets and

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Speaker 1: that there is a potential for life on other worlds.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, though even without the introduction of new holy

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Speaker 1: texts such as the Book of Mormon, you could point

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Speaker 1: out that lots of modern Christians have adapted their beliefs

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Speaker 1: to include modern science. Oh certainly. I mean, when we

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Speaker 1: look at the numbers from from that Gallup poll, only

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Speaker 1: forty two percent of Americans adhered to a literal understanding

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Speaker 1: of the Bible, and so that's obviously not even maybe

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Speaker 1: that's like half of Christians or something in America. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean you can certainly still be a Christian according

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Speaker 1: to me anyway. I mean, this is going to very

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Speaker 1: depending on who's who's serving in your Christianity, but um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can still be a Christian and not believe that

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Speaker 1: there was a literal garden of eaton. You can still

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Speaker 1: look at something like Noah's ark uh and and really

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Speaker 1: and and view it as mythology without and view it

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Speaker 1: as mythology, not in the as a dismissal, but understanding

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Speaker 1: the power of myth and the necessity of myth uh

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Speaker 1: in our culture right. Well, or you might not even

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Speaker 1: put it in those terms. You might just say like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a story that's part of our received

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00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: tradition and I accepted as a story. But I but

429
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: also I wouldn't deny what the evidence in the lab says.

430
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: I mean that would be foolish. So so one is

431
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: science and one is my religion, and you know that

432
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: you don't have to smash them together in a particle

433
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: collider of my brain. Yeah, I mean you can. You can.

434
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 1: You can look at it as literature. You can look

435
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: at it as mythology if you want. You can look

436
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: at it as some sort of a literal historical document.

437
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: But to do so is to throw out our modern

438
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: understanding of the world. Yeah, so how about the other

439
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: uh recently created religion that we open with talking about scientology,

440
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: Like we said, the bar Bet story probably isn't true,

441
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: but scientology certainly is a religion explicitly created in the

442
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: twentieth century. That's right, nineteen four UM contemporary individual focused

443
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: movement elements of science fiction, New age philosophy, and the

444
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: psycho analysis, though it also has historically been anti psychiatry.

445
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: UM and Uh. I think it's sort of almost uh

446
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: positions itself as an alternative to psychiatry. Yes, yeah, I

447
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: think very much so, um and one of them. We're

448
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,959
Speaker 1: not going to go in deep into all the mysteries

449
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: of scientology here, but it essentially says that we're all

450
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: alien souls called Theton's that bounce around from life to life.

451
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: One attempts to free oneself from this cycle and train

452
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: their true self. So it's kind of like space Buddhism,

453
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: which you know, I with without getting into the other details,

454
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: I could get behind the idea of some space Buddhism.

455
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: I could see the appeal in the abstract at least, though,

456
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: as you note, it is a pretty divisive religion. Everybody's

457
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 1: got an opinion on it. Yeah, it's hard to find

458
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm one of those people that I would

459
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: love to see more. Just like objective down the middle

460
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: coverage of scientology. But for the most part it's either

461
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly, just researching online you're gonna find one

462
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: voice or the other in very drastically different positions on

463
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: the matter. Now, any of the religions that we've mentioned

464
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: so far, you can definitely go at them and point

465
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: out at least little bits and pieces that don't match

466
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: up with our scientific understanding of reality. You can say, hey,

467
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: bees didn't have four legs. As we've mentioned in previous episodes,

468
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: there were no New World horses prior to UH, to

469
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: the colonial presence UH in North America. You hold on,

470
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: how is that relevant? Um? Some criticize, you know, the

471
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon and point to UH passages about horses

472
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: and and use this as a, you know, a sort

473
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: of rallying point for Oh, you're totally full of it,

474
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: because this thing doesn't match up with with real life. Likewise,

475
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: you can say, oh, there're no demonic space aliens, there

476
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: no there was no Zen, New etcetera. But as we're

477
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,239
Speaker 1: about to discuss, there are religions or hyper religions as

478
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 1: they're they're sometimes called, in which there is definite fiction

479
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: going on, like the whole bedrock for the faith is

480
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: fiction where not everybody agrees that fiction nobody and the

481
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: people on the inside. Yeah, So it's not a situation

482
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: where someone is having to say, well, you know, this

483
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: one little detail about horses or bees or what have you,

484
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: it doesn't match up, because X, Y and Z they're saying, oh, no,

485
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: I fully agree with you. This is all fiction. But

486
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: the thing that comes out of that fiction is real.

487
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: We're talking about religions that draw inspiration from fictional narratives

488
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: that don't claim to adhere to reality at all. And

489
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: here we're going to get into a little bit of

490
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: the work of a sort of cultural critic and sociologist

491
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: named Adam Possum I and possum Eze got a it's

492
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: got a book that came out in two thousand five

493
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: called Religion and Popular Culture a hyper real Testament like

494
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: that title, uh. And in this book he he builds

495
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: on some postmodern social theory. Now, don't worry, we're not

496
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: going to get too into the weeds of social theory

497
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: and post modern criticism. But basically here's how it goes.

498
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: It says the twentieth century represents a turn from traditional

499
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: cultural structures to individualized consumer experiences driven by capitalism. So

500
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: just think about that for a second. Oh, and he says,

501
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: of course this extends to religion. And so if you

502
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: think about that, it's sort of saying that instead of

503
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: having a structure like a community accountable to one another

504
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: that gathers to pray and worship, in the received antique tradition,

505
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: people consume their religion individually in the same way they

506
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,479
Speaker 1: do their shopping and their media perience is religion becomes

507
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: a co modified, consume arized thing that you you can

508
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: pick off the shelf and take home with you. And

509
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I totally agree, but I think there

510
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: is at least a grain of truth to this. Uh.

511
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: Simply by looking at the esthetics of religion in America today,

512
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: you could point to, for example, I think the rise

513
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: of televangelism, TV ministry networks. You can change the channel

514
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: at home religious participation on your own time with the

515
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: TV program. You could also look at megachurches, which I

516
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: think are a really interesting cultural phenomenon. I have huge congregations,

517
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: and what's the point of the huge congregation. Well, if

518
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: you wanted to look at it from this critical point

519
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: of view, you could say, really a huge congregation like

520
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: that provides each individual church go or a kind of

521
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: Walmart level of anonymity. You don't have to have a

522
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: personal relationship. You just go and sort of consume as

523
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: another face in the crowd as on your own time,

524
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: on your own terms. Now off or is that also

525
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: can be The very thing about a mega church that

526
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: would turn someone away is that they want to go

527
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: into a church. They want to be recognized, they want

528
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: to be an individual, the want of a community exactly.

529
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: But then also you could look at their attention grabbing

530
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: multimedia experiences like let's, you know, let's watch Pastor Trent

531
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: rock out with the praise band on the JumboTron, which

532
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: there there's certainly plenty of that. And sometimes they've even

533
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: got truly built in shopping experiences. You've got coffee shops,

534
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: bookstores and the church and stuff like that. And so

535
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: this is the work that I think possum I is

536
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: building on. And so possum I when he gets to

537
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: the concept of hyper real religion, he makes a comparison

538
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: between trends in fantasy literature and trends in religion. And

539
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: so he starts out by looking at fantasy fiction, and

540
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: he says He says essentially that fantasy fiction has this

541
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: traditional library of tropes, styles, and contents from which it

542
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: usually draws, like sword and sorcery fiction. He possum I

543
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: claims that this is based mostly on chival ric or

544
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: medieval romance like the R three and cycle, you know,

545
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 1: King Arthur in those kind of stories, that they form

546
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: the library of things which the modern fantasy author can

547
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: now reach in and grab and put together in his

548
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: or her own way. And so among the standard library

549
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: of tropes or things like magic, creatures, thieves, warriors, druids, wizards, orcs, elves,

550
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: what else, oh, gelatinous cubes. Yeah, all the standard dunez

551
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: and dragons, characters, creatures and tropes for sure. But then

552
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: possum My points to an interesting development in the history

553
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: of fantasy, which he singles out as the two thousand

554
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: two video game Kingdom Hearts. Now, I've never played this of,

555
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: you know, but I'm familiar with the with the series,

556
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: especially it's it's crossovers with like Disney material. But yeah,

557
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: I did not expect Kingdom Hearts to show up in

558
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: the material. But this is exactly what he points out.

559
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting point. He says, So, okay,

560
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: Kingdom Hearts is a video game following a very traditional

561
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: fantasy put in some ways, it has a traditional fantasy

562
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: plot structure. There's a quest, there's a main character who

563
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: has a sort of symbolic sword and uh, and the

564
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: main character is seeking reunification with friends who are lost.

565
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: It all sounds like this could be Tolkien or something.

566
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: But instead of having all of just the regular dungeons

567
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: and dragons, chivalry, you know, the nights and the elves

568
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: and the orcs and all that, it's got characters from

569
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: Disney movies. Like you say, so, it's got characters from

570
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: Aladdin and Peter Pan and a hundred and one Dalmatians

571
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 1: and Alice in Wonderland. And so he's looking at this

572
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: as saying, huh, So, when you put yourself in the

573
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: fantasy mindset, you kind of have to uh accept as

574
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: real all of the tropes that are being pulled from

575
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: the the antique library of medieval and fantasy tropes like

576
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: wizards and stuff like that. That's the real material that

577
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: you work with within the fantasy realm. But this is

578
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: binging in all this stuff where people are explicitly familiar

579
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: with the origins Disney movies. Disney movies they saw when

580
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: they were a kid, and now they're part of the

581
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: fantasy library. Huh. Yeah, this is I mean, this just

582
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: makes me think about walking around the office here and

583
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: how stuff works. Uh. You go by each desk and

584
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: everyone has at least it seems like one figurine, right,

585
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: one action figure, some sort of pop culture comic bookie

586
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: character that is serving as kind of uh, kind of

587
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: an avatar, kind of an icon, kind of uh, kind

588
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: of a holy artifact, a little god, a little shrine

589
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: at your desk. Yeah, exactly. I mean, like like I

590
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: think about in my own situation, like I carry a

591
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: Ganesha in my pocket, Ganesha being of course that the Hindu,

592
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: a little elephant deity, the remover of obstacles, um and

593
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: and so you know, I carry him around as a

594
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: kind of a good good luck token. But on my

595
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: desk here at work, I also have a gammera and

596
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: a tom Servo, which very fine idols. Yeah, and they

597
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: kind of what they kind of embody certain you know,

598
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: maybe not completely thought out ideas, but they embody certain

599
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: nostalgic powers and thematic powers that I kind of draw

600
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: in a draw on as I work. Gammera has stuff

601
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: we can all get behind. He loves all children, It's right.

602
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: He's a friend of children. And he breathes fire and flies,

603
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: so he's you know, he's he's a he's a powerful

604
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: force to to to, to turn to. So anytime there's

605
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: a bat in your vicinity that begins to emit rays

606
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: you know that you have Gammera on your side. Exactly. Yeah.

607
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: But you know, to what extent are all these little

608
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: little creatures and a little toy? I mean, they are

609
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: all kind of religious icons. They're kind of the gods

610
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: of the New Age, right, Yeah, And so we should

611
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: note about possum I before we continue that. In the

612
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: academic community postmodern religious and cultural criticism, there's been you know,

613
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: a ton of ink spill debating the merits of possum eze,

614
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: definitions and analysis. We're not going to get into all that.

615
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: We're we're not going to get into these debates. We

616
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: can just focus on that the example itself, basically the

617
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: subjective analysis. So if there's nothing definite about any of it, yeah,

618
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: but but it does it does make a lot of

619
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: sense in this one. We're discussing it here, But essentially,

620
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: the idea is creating religions inspired by source material that

621
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: the religion's own adherents except to be fiction. Well, let's

622
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: run through some examples of this, because I mean, I

623
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: know it's if you're not familiar with this, your your

624
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: brain is probably going in circles here, like how do

625
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: you base a religion? It's one thing to say, oh,

626
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: I get some inspiration from a gammera, but how would

627
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: you actually have a gammera based faith. Well, do you

628
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: mind if I talk about the Jedi first? Talk about

629
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: the Jedi? Okay, so how about Jedi is M. Have you?

630
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: Have you folks heard of this jedi Ism, Jeddism or

631
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 1: jeddi is M. Jedism always makes me think of Jed

632
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: from Beverly Hillbillies. It's the religion of Jed clamp At. Yes,

633
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: because he came across the Black Gold, so he must

634
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 1: be inspired. Yes he would God let him there. But anyway,

635
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: that no, jed Edi is Um is a Star Wars

636
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: inspired religion that takes after the Jedi, the Jedi knights

637
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: of the Star Wars universe. Who are the heroes? I mean,

638
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: I probably don't need to explain the Star Wars context you,

639
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: I assume you've seen it. If not, suffice to say, they're,

640
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, a quasi mystical religious order of good guys

641
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: facing off against an evil empire. Well evil in quotation,

642
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how evil they actually were. But but oh,

643
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: so you've got a bone to pick there, Well, it's

644
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: it's not really worth picking at this point, never mind. Okay,

645
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: So anyway, in my best judgment, Jedi pretty clearly began

646
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 1: as a joke. It just explicitly a joke. Uh. First example,

647
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: the two thousand one since this phenomenon, so around the

648
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: time of the year two thousand one, there was a

649
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: widespread international email campaign urging people to list Jedi as

650
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: their religion on official census forms. And it worked. It worked,

651
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 1: according to the BBC. In the two thousand one UK

652
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: since US three hundred ninety thousand, one hundred and twenty

653
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: seven people, which amounted to about zero point seven percent

654
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: of the population at the time, listed their religion as

655
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: some variation on Jedi on that census Jedi or Jedi

656
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: Knight something like. That same year, according to the Sydney

657
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: Morning Herald, seventy thousand, five hundred and nine Australians, or

658
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: about zero point three seven percent of Australians registered as

659
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: Jedi on on the two thousand one census. So at

660
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: the time, I think everybody assumed this was sort of

661
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: like flying spaghetti monsterism. It's a joke carried out by

662
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: atheists and secularists, maybe trying to point out something about

663
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 1: the arbitrary nous of people's religious beliefs. Maybe they thought

664
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: they were making a point. Maybe they didn't even think

665
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: they were making a point. Maybe they just thought it

666
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: was funny to say I'm a Jedi instead of to

667
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: say no religion or none or something. Yeah, and it's

668
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 1: probably the kind of thing where in many of these cases,

669
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: not a tremendous a tremendous amount thought is not going

670
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: into this. It's it's just kind of a gut reaction.

671
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: But the roots may run a little deeper than they're

672
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: conscious off. Yeah. So that was two thousand one. But

673
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: if you look at the website now of the Temple

674
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: of the Jedi Order, and if you listen to their spokespeople,

675
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: it starts to seem less and less like a joke

676
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: or even a statement in order to make a point.

677
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: If you look at them. Now, the Jedi have beliefs,

678
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: they have doctrines, they have credle statements, and it sounds

679
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: to me perhaps unsettlingly sincere, I don't mean unsettling as

680
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: in I'm mocking them. I just mean it's surprising. So

681
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 1: I want to read a couple of little things from

682
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: the Temple of the Jedi Order. These are These are

683
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: statements they have. One is the Jedi Code, and there

684
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: are two versions of it. I want to read the

685
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: simplified version. The Jedi Code reads emotion yet peace, Ignorance yet, knowledge,

686
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: Passion yet, serenity, chaos us yet, harmony, death yet the Force. Okay,

687
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: that sounds pleasingly mystic and and deep. Yeah, okay. There's

688
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: also a Jedi creed, believe it or not, so that

689
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: this is their creed. I am a Jedi, an instrument

690
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,959
Speaker 1: of peace where there is hatred. I shall bring love

691
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: where there is injury, pardon where there is doubt, faith

692
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 1: where there is despair, hope where there is darkness, light,

693
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: and where there is sadness joy. I am a Jedi.

694
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as

695
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: to console, to be understood, as to understand, to be

696
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: loved as to love, for it is in giving that

697
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: we receive, it is in pardoning that we're pardoned, and

698
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: it is in dying that we're born to eternal life.

699
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: The forces with me always, for I am a Jedi. Okay,

700
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: so this makes me instantly wonder are we are we

701
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 1: witnessing here the evolution of faith or the evolution of

702
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: the joke? Are we are we kind of in like

703
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: the Andy Kaufman uh period of the joke where we're

704
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: just forced to feel kind of confused and maybe a

705
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: little uncomfortable about where we stand, uh in bit versus reality?

706
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I so first of all, that

707
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: creed I read there, they said they claimed that is

708
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: actually adapted from a traditional prayer of St. Francis of ASSISI.

709
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: Um so that's sort of interesting that they're adapting traditional

710
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: religious materials. But I also listened to an interview with

711
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: the spokesperson from the organization, the Temple of the Jedi,

712
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: and you know what, he seemed to me like a

713
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 1: level headed guy who was not playing a prank. In fact,

714
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: he the weirdest thing was he didn't even seem like

715
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: all that obsessive of a Star Wars fan. Umh. And

716
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: he so he explained that all the Jedi believe in

717
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: the Force, but the Jedi need not believe in like

718
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: a literal physical reality of the Force as an energy

719
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: field that's around us and binds us. Though apparently you

720
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: can believe in that instead. He made it sound like

721
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: the Force can be defined however you like. It can

722
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: be a physical reality, it can be a metaphor for

723
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,959
Speaker 1: the interconnectedness of the universe, or it can be something

724
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: else entirely pretty much whatever you want. He seemed very

725
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: earnest and serious about Jedism being taken seriously as a religion, or,

726
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: if not a religion, as a sort of philosophy accorded

727
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: the same cultural respect as a religion. Well, it's interesting,

728
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: right because you're what is that what is Star Wars

729
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: but sort of a rehashing and reassemblage of various uh

730
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: mythic tropes, right, yeah, And he pointed to exactly this thing.

731
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: He said, Star Wars doesn't exist in a vacuum, you know,

732
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: yet it draws on traditional philosophies and religions, and so

733
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: we're essentially using Star Wars as as a metaphorical way

734
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: to go back to these ancient traditions. So it's kind

735
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: of like, hey, I really love Star Wars. Why do

736
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: I love Star Wars? And then if the answer is, well,

737
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: some of these belief systems are kind of appealing to me.

738
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: If you then explore the roots of those things and

739
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: began to find meaning in the roots of those things

740
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: without abandoning that initial science fiction lens by continuing to

741
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: have that be a part of your your I'm hesitant

742
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: to say worldview, but let's say your your spiritual construction.

743
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: Then you you have yourself a hyper real religion. Yeah,

744
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: but the Star Wars universe is not the only one

745
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: that has created movements like this. I think there are

746
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: others that I would say chart a similar path. It

747
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: looks to me, and like I have to admit, as

748
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: with all these I'm an outsider, So you know, I

749
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: can't speak as a Jedi or something, and I don't

750
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: want to diminish people's experiences in that faith or in

751
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: any other faith. But what I'll say is, it looks

752
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: to me like it definitely started as a joke. Well,

753
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: and it it and it took on a seriousness and

754
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: and there are others like that, like, well, that's just

755
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: like your opinion. Man, right, how about the Dude. That's right.

756
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: Dudaism is another big one. Um, I assume we also

757
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: have some Big Lebowski fans, I should hope. So yeah,

758
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: The Big Lebowski, the Coen Brothers. Uh, just wonderful film

759
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: and it didn't really do well when it came out,

760
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: but it's one of those that has continued to just

761
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 1: gaining a cult following conventions and even its own hyper

762
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: real religion in the form of Dudaism. So it's basically

763
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: all boils down to the dude abides right. Um, it's

764
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: a dude centric philosophy and lifestyle, more or less a

765
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: modern pop culture take on on Dalloism dallasm. I've heard

766
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: it described also as having a lot of similarities to

767
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: Zen Buddhism. Yeah, indeed, it's you know, it's a little

768
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 1: it's chill, it's uh, it's peaceful, it's uh, it's it's

769
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: it's all of the positive aspects of the dude, um,

770
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: without some of his more you know, reckless or laziness. Well,

771
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: you know, one of the funny things is that the

772
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: thing about the dude is that he's chill. But throughout

773
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: much of the movie, the Dude is not chill. Yeah,

774
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: the the dude gets a little irritated, and uh and

775
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: and and is even criticized by the stranger for his

776
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: his vulgar language. So it's it's it's one of the

777
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: This is another great example, though, where you when you

778
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: look at Dudaism and you see the the people who

779
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: follow it or at least like to talk about it,

780
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: It all does begin in that kind of bumper sticker area,

781
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: like it's fun to say, hey, what's your religion? Oh,

782
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: it's Dudaism, you know, because I really love this movie.

783
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: But you see the same thing, right, You see individuals

784
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: who seem to follow the roots of it or sort

785
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 1: of ask themself questions, well, if Dudaism were a real faith,

786
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: if it were a real philosophy, what would what would

787
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: his tenants be? What would be what? What would I

788
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: need to understand? And then they sort of follow it

789
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: backwards into um, you know, more historical modes of belief. Yeah,

790
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: and I think this would encounter the same kind of

791
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: criticisms from outsiders that all these others would. People would

792
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: be like, wait a second, hold on, what do you

793
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: mean do you really believe in Judaism? Is that really

794
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: your religion. Well, it's kind of it kind of makes

795
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: me think of you remember win App. Oh yeah, the

796
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: old like MP three player that we all had. That's

797
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: the thing. You had different skins, right, we all have

798
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: the same program, but we use different skins that appeal

799
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 1: to us personally. Since you have like a tool skin

800
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: on win App, I think I had some sort of

801
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: like horrible blood splattery one or something like that. It was,

802
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: it was nice and dark and moody. But but I

803
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: can't help but feel like we encounter something something similar

804
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: with these hyper real religions that we're discussing, where the

805
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 1: actual mode of beliefs, the actual mechanics are either something

806
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: old or something cobbled together from other beliefs, But it's

807
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: that skin that brings us in. That skin is unique

808
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: and appeals to us. I got another one. I was

809
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 1: trying to tell Rachel last night about Jeddism, my wife Rachel,

810
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: about Jedis to convert her or or to Jedism. No, no, no,

811
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: just to explain it. And she was like, oh, I

812
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: bet there is this for Lord of the Rings and

813
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: and what do you know that there are there are

814
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: Tolkien inspired religious ideas, which is very interesting to me

815
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: because I would say that in some ways Tolkien is

816
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: sort of adapting Christianity to a fantasy setting, or at

817
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: least some ideas of Christianity. It's not like an explicit

818
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: one to one metaphor, but a lot of his messages

819
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: I think in Lord of the Rings are Christian ones. Yeah,

820
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 1: it's these sort of sort of vague Tolkien asked neopagan religions.

821
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: They're they're interesting because you had the book itself. They're

822
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: they're often these arguments, you know, people saying, oh, this

823
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 1: is a pagan work, and and it's they're the pagan

824
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: elements are what's important here. Other saying no, it's inherently

825
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: a Christian work. Other people saying it's a it's a

826
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: synthesis of the two um. And maybe all these arguments

827
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: there are ultimately kind of silly, but you, I mean,

828
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: it's a very popular work, and especially out of the

829
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies where you saw people are really into Tolkien.

830
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: There's a lot of good there's still a lot of

831
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: you know, Coulter cultural energy going on. It's in Led

832
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: Zeppelin albums, all Zeppelin albums, and it it has a

833
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: lot of power to it. It has a lot of um,

834
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: it has a lot of depth to it. You can

835
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: just go completely crazy, uh, filling in all the details

836
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: in your mind about the world of Tolkien. We maybe

837
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: don't advise that. No, Well, you go for it if

838
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: you want. Um. I mean, that's one thing I always

839
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: enjoy about the various sci fi and fantasy properties that

840
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: that really engage me is if there's a really rich mythos,

841
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: they're either one that is explicitly um laid out for

842
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: you or one where they are all these holes that

843
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: you can't help but fill in the details yourself. You know,

844
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: we were talking about this concept of hyper real religions

845
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: and uh, and Christian Sega, our other host, brought Satanism

846
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: to mind. That's right. Um. And if anyone remembers the

847
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: Satanic Panic episode that Christian and I did, I guess

848
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: about a year ago. Know, um, as we discussed in

849
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: that Satanism like never really existed, certainly not in the

850
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: way that that it was presented in during the Satanic Panic, Right.

851
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: I mean I would say that what you have as Satanism,

852
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: people who would actually claim this religion is almost explicitly

853
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: an atheistic religion, right. Yeah, And generally when we talk

854
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: about Satanism. We're talking about Lavay and Satanism, which was

855
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: comes from the Church of Satan, found in nineteen sixty

856
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: six by Anton LaVey. Was you know, ultimately it's an

857
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 1: atheistic individualist philosophy. It's UH with more than a dash

858
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: of of drama, symbolism, fun. It's about messing with the

859
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: squares and and putting on a you know, a fun show. Well,

860
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: in some ways I think it has a lot in

861
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: common with the Flying Spaghetti Monster is um and that

862
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: it's it's maybe more than this, but in in some

863
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: ways you could think of it as a massive prank. Yes,

864
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: very much so um And And I think lave I

865
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: think was was pretty straightforward about I mean, this is

866
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: a guy that came from sort of Carney roots at

867
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: the very Carney faith, and and I love it. You

868
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: can't help it but get involved with the trappings of it,

869
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: especially as the years roll by and it becomes a

870
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: part of uh, you know, an entire segment of of music. Right,

871
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: you get into all this death metal that has varying

872
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: degrees of satanic elements. All right, but I think it's

873
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: time to turn to psychology to try to see what

874
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: we can figure out about what people are actually trying

875
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: to get out of these religious beliefs. It seems fairly

876
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: clear what people get out of traditional religious beliefs where

877
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: there is at the core of them the assumption of

878
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 1: a real revelation about the metaphysical nature of reality. Um,

879
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: maybe not in all of them, but in lots of them.

880
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,479
Speaker 1: But in these religious beliefs that are in some way

881
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: based on what everybody agrees is fiction. What what is

882
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: the goal of the seeker of the adherent? Well, one

883
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: take on this comes from Carol mq sax Invented Religions, Imagination,

884
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: Fiction and Faith, and she posits that invented religions, such

885
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: as the ones we're discussing here, they demonstrate that what

886
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: meaning hungry humans really want is a powerful narrative, particularly

887
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: one in which unseen agents affect causality in our world

888
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: and in our lives. Okay, so maybe saying that even

889
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: if we don't agree that the narratives refer to a

890
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: thing that's literally true, just participation in the narrative is enough. Yeah,

891
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean, like the fictional realm becomes the place where

892
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: it is okay to dream, whereas to to dream in

893
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: the more real world of of sort of you know

894
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: religious history that is, uh, that's that is sometimes seen

895
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: as a bit weird in some circles. Well, that relates

896
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: to something that we that I know, we read a

897
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: little bit about about why fantasy is popular these days.

898
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 1: It actually reminds me of of some thoughts, some observations

899
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: that are Scott Baker made our Scott Baker himself being

900
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: a uh successful and in my opinion highly talented um

901
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 1: fantasy writer himself background in philosophy, and also he works

902
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: a fair amount of neuroscience into his into his creations.

903
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: But um. In his paper that published on science fiction

904
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: and Fantasy, World, Wine, Fantasy and Whine now Um, he

905
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: says that fantasy is quote the primary literary response to

906
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: what is often called the contemporary crisis of meaning. So

907
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: the idea here is that we live in an age

908
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: of reason and science. We have all sorts of myth

909
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: erasing answers for how the world works, so so long

910
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: as we don't require teleological answers. So this get in

911
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: other words, this gets down to, you know, we have

912
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: all these answers about how, say, the solar system works,

913
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: how life works, but we don't have the wise, Right,

914
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: that's the stuff that that is beyond science. Yeah, he

915
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: almost says science is essentially created too reliable of a

916
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: tool for finding correct answers about reality, and so reliable

917
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: in fact, that it has left us with nihilism. Uh.

918
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: Now we we don't necessarily need to agree with that

919
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: perspective to say that. Certainly a lot of people probably

920
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: feel this way that if science is the only socially

921
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: legitimate way of of asserting that something is definitely true,

922
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 1: where do you get your meaning of life from? Yeah?

923
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: If science is not going to give that to you,

924
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: and it can lead to a sense of kind of despair,

925
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,399
Speaker 1: of hopelessness, of emptiness. You know, what is life really

926
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: all about? I mean, who cares if I can finally

927
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: understand the mysteries of the of quantum physics. If if

928
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: what it reveals is that there's no way to answer

929
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: the question of the meaning of life. Yeah, so you

930
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 1: end up turning to fantasy um, and to a certain

931
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: certain extent science fiction, but largely we're talking about fantasy.

932
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 1: You're trying to turn to these fantastic stories, uh, in

933
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 1: which you can find if not find that meaning for yourself,

934
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: then you at least embodied characters who find that meaning

935
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: and world and live in a world where life and

936
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: in the individual has significance. Now, I I personally probably

937
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: wouldn't agree with big or that this is what this

938
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: is what is entailed by the scientific view of the world.

939
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: But I can certainly see how if you do go

940
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: to that conclusion, fantasy could provide a very powerful escape

941
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: from it. Right. And you know, I do have to

942
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: say our Scott Baker's own work, his Um Second Apocalypse series,

943
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: he he crowns these cads. It's definitely dark fantasy, but

944
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: he grounds these many of these characters, uh, in this

945
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: this very believable philosophical place that is at times like you,

946
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: at times you're loot, you lose yourself in the story,

947
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: in the narrative, in the world. But other times he

948
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: forces the reader to to really ask some troubling questions

949
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: about about who we are and how we work as individuals. Um. So, yeah,

950
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: I would say that his critique of fantasy genre UM

951
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: does not apply to everything within that realm, and it

952
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't apply to all readers. Come back to the question, right,

953
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: what modern religious individuals want? So he would say maybe,

954
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: meaning right, he would say meaning he would tie it

955
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 1: into this idea he he coined the term the semantic apocalypse. Uh,

956
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: this idea that we are either at the point where

957
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: we're approaching this point where we just we're just completely

958
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: stupefied by the lack of meaning in our lives and

959
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: in the world. But then again, I mean, I'm sure

960
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: there have been some scientific studies that look into what

961
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: it is that people want out of religions in general. Uh.

962
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: There have, yeah, and one in particular. And again, this

963
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: is when we're talking about papers and studies about religion.

964
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: This is all ultimately, you know, subjective analysis. Uh, So

965
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 1: feel free to disagree and our idea with us and uh,

966
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 1: but in this case, uh. According to Ohio State University

967
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: professor Stephen rice Offer, an author of the two thousand

968
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: sixteen book, uh, The Sixteen Strivings for God, he says

969
00:54:52,840 --> 00:55:03,919
Speaker 1: people have sixteen basic desires. I liked these interesting. Yeah, Acceptance, curiosity, eating, family, honor, idealism, independence, order,

970
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:10,280
Speaker 1: physical activity, power, romance, saving, social contact, status, tranquility, and vengeance.

971
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: And then a pretty good list. I was trying to

972
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: think of things other than that. Yeah, though, I think

973
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: he covered all the basics there and you can't help

974
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 1: but look at that list and sort of check things

975
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,399
Speaker 1: off in your head as you look at your own

976
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: either your own religious beliefs, your spiritualism, or your the

977
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: fantasy that you're into. Um. But he developed this Rice

978
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: motivation profile that measures how much people value each of

979
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: these sixteen goals, and he administered it to a hundred

980
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: thousand plus people, and he found that the appeal of

981
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: any given religion relates to how it responds to one

982
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: or more of those desires. Uh, and it competes with

983
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: secular society to meet those desires. So, so think about it,

984
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: in what ways can both traditional religions and hyper real

985
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: religions meet in any of these desires such as uh? Well,

986
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: I mean stuff like curiosity. I can doubt only see

987
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: the appeal of that because one of the things that

988
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: always drew me into actual religions and continues to draw

989
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: me into actual religions is the mystery and the creativity,

990
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: the the interplay and narratives of these gods and heroes. Right,

991
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: It's what brings me into uh to you know, reading

992
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: a Hinduism, and brings me into reading a uh, you

993
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 1: know about ancient Egypt. It brings me into reading you know,

994
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: various fantasy novels as well. Well. I mean, in some cases,

995
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: I think this might grow out of a slight disconnect

996
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: between the things we need, you know, these things we

997
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: strive for and desire, versus what we really know is

998
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: appropriate in modern society, given that we've started to think

999
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: out ethical issues in a secular way. I don't know

1000
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 1: if you can say that there's really a good, widely

1001
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: agreed upon, secular justification for things like a desire for honor,

1002
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 1: And yet the ancient structures of fantasy, or of traditional

1003
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: religions or something like that might all include concepts of

1004
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 1: honor that can sort of legitimate this desire that we

1005
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,280
Speaker 1: have biologically, even if we can't think of a good

1006
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: reason to seek honor. Yeah, it makes more something like

1007
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 1: honor often makes more sense in a simplified and highly

1008
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 1: symbolic world than it does and you know, the minutia

1009
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: of real life. Yeah, um, you know. Likewise, something like vengeance,

1010
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: which made the list, Like vengeance is something that in

1011
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: your own life, like vengeance is kind of ikey um,

1012
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: well yeah, and it's the thing we all desire, but

1013
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: most of us would probably agree we sort of know

1014
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: better than to try to get it right. But like

1015
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: a religious faith, you know, you have some sort of

1016
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: hell doctrine in there, an outsource vengeance, I'd say, I

1017
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: don't have to get revenge something bad might happen to

1018
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 1: you outside of my control. Yeah, and and and likewise,

1019
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: we continually turn to fictional models of what vengeance might

1020
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: consist of. I mean, revenge tails have always been popular,

1021
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,479
Speaker 1: will continue to be popular, and again they often fall

1022
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 1: back on a simplified and highly symbolic world. You know,

1023
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: I wonder if studies on religious experience would indicate that

1024
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: that hyper reality could become or is becoming, the new

1025
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: norm for religious experiences. Yeah. It often reminds me of

1026
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: the line in Big Trouble, Little China from the Sorcerer

1027
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: egg Shin, who talks about Chinese modes of belief in

1028
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: saying that it's like a salad bar that you choose,

1029
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: you take what you like, and you leave the rest. Uh.

1030
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: In this case, the character was referring to Confusism and

1031
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: Taoism and and uh and and uh and and also

1032
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: Buddhism as well. But but yeah, I I find that

1033
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: increasingly in my own life that I do that that

1034
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: I kind of take what I want from these various models,

1035
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: including some fictional models, and and incorporated into my sort

1036
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: of religious, spiritual worldview. There's actually a two thousand fifteen

1037
00:58:54,840 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: study from the University of Evansville published in American Sociological View,

1038
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: and it took a pretty thorough look at the way

1039
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: Americans process religion and science. So the author's crunch data

1040
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: from three waves of the General Social Survey and found

1041
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: that US adults hold one of three perspectives based on

1042
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: their knowledge and attitudes about science and religion. Now, the

1043
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: first two are long established, but the third isn't is,

1044
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: according to the author's entirely new. So there's a modern perspective,

1045
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: a worldview that favors science over religion, and that scored Okay,

1046
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: science Trump's religion. That's that's that version. Then there's a

1047
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: traditional perspective, a worldview that favors religion over science, which

1048
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: you know to interpret that that that score as you will.

1049
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: But then the third one is the post secular perspective,

1050
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: a worldview that values both science and religion, but quote

1051
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: rejects science in favor of religion when it comes to

1052
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: topics such as creation and evolution. And that scored. So

1053
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 1: that is kind of the salad bar situation in action

1054
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: there right, where the individual is willing to favor science

1055
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: and religion, in fact, favor science over religion, except for

1056
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: those places where it becomes um, teleologically difficult, where if

1057
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 1: not overt issues of meaning come into play, then at

1058
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 1: least implied um meaning, you know, implied issues of meaning.

1059
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: So you know, it's like like, ultimately, I think there

1060
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: can be a strong case to be made that what

1061
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: does it matter if if life evolved or of the

1062
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 1: hand of God shaped it, But if your interpretation sees

1063
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: one vision version as problematic or threatening to the overall

1064
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,439
Speaker 1: religious structure in your head, then you then in this case,

1065
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna favor that religious construct over the science. And

1066
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: a separate question I think would be just what are

1067
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: the triggers that cause people to view these things as

1068
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,959
Speaker 1: in conflict anyway? Like, some people are obviously hold both

1069
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: views in their heads without trouble, and some people perceive

1070
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: a conflict. Um I'm not sure what makes the difference,

1071
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: but it seems significant. Yeah, so yeah, So what we're

1072
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 1: talking about here that the post secular perspective. It's not

1073
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: a mere midpoint between the traditional and the modern but

1074
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: rather a unique way of looking at reality through the

1075
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: combined lenses of science and religion. So you can think

1076
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,439
Speaker 1: of it as a as kind of a hybrid view.

1077
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: And I think that the hyper real religions that we're

1078
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: looking at are kind kind of represent a high red

1079
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: view of a different, slightly different form where instead of

1080
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 1: rejecting the science that that that threatens, meaning, we're going

1081
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 1: to just we're going to outsource the religion into a

1082
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: sort of a safe bucket, into the bucket of fiction,

1083
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 1: and then build from there. I think that's an interesting

1084
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: way of looking at it. Like we said, I mean

1085
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: a lot of these people who have these beliefs, I

1086
01:01:53,440 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: get the sense are basically uh non basically material list humanists,

1087
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: Like they typically have humanist values, they could subscribe to

1088
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 1: the humanist manifesto, and they typically don't believe in uh

1089
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: spirits or something anything other than the natural world. That

1090
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 1: certainly isn't the case for all of them, but that

1091
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 1: seems to be a dominant way of thinking. But like,

1092
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: like as we know from Buddhism and stuff like that,

1093
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: you need not be a supernaturalist in order to be

1094
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: a religious person, right, Yeah, And there are ways of engaging.

1095
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:30,959
Speaker 1: I mean, just for Buddhism on its on its own.

1096
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: You can take a very sort of abstract philosophical approach

1097
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: to Buddhism where you don't literally believe in life to

1098
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: life reincarnation, or you can take you can take one

1099
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: that is very traditional and ultimately you know it's it's

1100
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: all about being fearful and responding from a place of

1101
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: fear in terms of what your your next incarnation will

1102
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: consist of. I had another idea based in psychology, about

1103
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: what might explain some of this. I mean, I certainly

1104
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to say that all of it could is

1105
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: explained by this, but it could explain some of the

1106
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: transition from joke religions into real religions. And it would

1107
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 1: be based in the idea of sunk costs, choice, supportive bias,

1108
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: and post purchase rationalization. So let's say you spend a

1109
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: lot of money on a new lawnmower. Okay, I can't

1110
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: imagine it happening in my case, but yeah, you've mowed

1111
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 1: the lawn a few times, and you start to worry

1112
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: that maybe you didn't spend your money all that well,

1113
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: So you start to engage in an internal conversation, which

1114
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: is a form of choice supportive bias, a bias towards

1115
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: validating the choice you already made. That's called post purchase rationalization.

1116
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: You start coming up with the reasons why you know

1117
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: this really was a good way to spend my money.

1118
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: I think I did the right thing by spending the

1119
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: money on this lawnmower, because it could sort of lead

1120
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 1: to some unpleasant cognitive dissonance. If you don't come to

1121
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: that conclusion, you can think, man, I really screwed up.

1122
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have gone down this road. So it's kind

1123
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: of kind of gets into the area if I read

1124
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: Dune three times or more times than that, even maybe

1125
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: it wasn't just a good book. Maybe it wasn't just

1126
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 1: a great book, but maybe it was a book that

1127
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: was so meaningful that it is that it achieves kind

1128
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: of a spiritual level exactly, or in another way, it

1129
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 1: could be true that Let's say if you spent a

1130
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: lot of time and effort just carrying out a joke,

1131
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: just on a prank religion. Let's say you start spending

1132
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: time on Judaism because you love the Big Lebowski and

1133
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 1: because it's funny. It's funny to pretend that there's a

1134
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 1: dude religion. But after realizing how much sunk costs you've

1135
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: incurred in your own time and energy over a long

1136
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: period of time, you start seeking ways to rationalize the

1137
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: purchase of these beliefs by saying, huh uh, you know,

1138
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: maybe if if I've spent three hundred hours on Dudaism,

1139
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: was it really just a joke? Maybe it wasn't just

1140
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: a joke. Maybe there's really some meaning in this. And

1141
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 1: and that's not even to say that the meaning you

1142
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: find is invalid if that's your method that of coming

1143
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: to that meaning. I would say that that conclusions reached

1144
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 1: through choice supportive bias aren't necessarily untrue conclusions. I think

1145
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: in many cases, the time and financial investment involved here,

1146
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: it just forces you to double down on something that

1147
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: you were already inclined to support or inclined to buy into.

1148
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 1: You know, It's it's like I already thought this was

1149
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: a great idea, but now that I've I've potentially wasted

1150
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: this much time on it, it's definitely a great idea.

1151
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 1: One other thing I wanted to note, I was interested

1152
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 1: to see what you thought of this, is that these

1153
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: religions the hyper real religions, especially like Jedi is m

1154
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 1: and Judaism, seemed to be very much creatures of the Internet.

1155
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: In fact, even I mentioned that I listened to an

1156
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 1: interview with the spokesperson of the Jedi Temple. The guy

1157
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: who I listened to explicitly pointed to the introduction of

1158
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:58,439
Speaker 1: Internet fan communities and forums in the nineteen nineties as

1159
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 1: the thing that made the Jedi religion possible. And so

1160
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: that makes me wonder how the Internet has changed what's

1161
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: possible in terms of social movements and the birth of religions. Well, yeah,

1162
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: I mean, the Internet has made it possible to to

1163
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: find those communities of people that share your belief You

1164
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: might be the only person in your small town that

1165
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: loves Star Wars as much as you do, but the

1166
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: Internet allows you to find all those other individuals who

1167
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: are as invested, and you find the community in your

1168
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 1: fandom that that one could you know, that would pre

1169
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 1: one could previously find, perhaps only in something like a religion.

1170
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: You're finding that religious community in your fandom. But then again,

1171
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: I come back to the question. I mean, I have

1172
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: to wonder what the evolution of this looks like over

1173
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: a long time. Could you ever reach the point where

1174
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 1: there are jeddi Ists who believe in the truth of

1175
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: jedi Is m so firmly that they would actually come

1176
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: to the position of the creationists we talked about at

1177
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 1: the beginning, where they would want their views taught as

1178
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 1: an alternative to modern science ends in schools, where they

1179
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 1: would say, you know, I I don't just say that

1180
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: this is a useful framework for my life. That kind

1181
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: of makes sense to me. I say, this is how

1182
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 1: reality is, and I've got the exclusive truth. Uh, I

1183
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: mean I it's hard to imagine with the jedi Ists

1184
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 1: of today, who, like we said, seemed to be just

1185
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: sort of like a taking from the salad bar of

1186
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: interesting ideas. But who knows what would be possible in

1187
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, well, it seems to me it would

1188
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: be less of a conflict between between science and this

1189
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: kind of storytelling mythology, but would be more a conflict

1190
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: between mythology. So would be more in line with a

1191
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 1: jedi Is saying, Hey, if you're going to teach the

1192
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: children about Greek mythology, uh, then and if you're going

1193
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: to teach them about you know, about Hinduism or some

1194
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 1: of these other um, you know, modes of sort of

1195
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 1: mythological belief, and you have to teach them about our

1196
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: mode as well, because yeah, because our mode has all

1197
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: of those old ideas, but it's been kind of purified

1198
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,439
Speaker 1: through the lens of of modern culture. Well, I will

1199
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 1: say I do believe Obi wan Kenobi is much wiser

1200
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: than most of the Greek gods. He's he's a very

1201
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: wise individual. It's hard not to. Oh, I don't know.

1202
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 1: Some of his choices in the prequels may have been

1203
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 1: I'm not even talking about that. That's heretical. Heretic, Yes, blasphemy. Robert,

1204
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 1: what's your own personal choice for hyper real religion? Well,

1205
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, um, like if if you had to go

1206
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: with one, I could see myself as a follower of

1207
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 1: annasurmbor Kellis, the aspect emperor of the three season our

1208
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 1: Scott Baker's Second Apocalypse saga. Um, okay, I don't know

1209
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: anything about that. It's pretty it's pretty rich and deep

1210
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: and uh, that is one where there are segments in

1211
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 1: those books where I've keep they come back to me.

1212
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 1: I think about little motifs that he rolls out, and like,

1213
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: some of it is as meaningful as any you know,

1214
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 1: actual religion. Actual mythology in my life. Likewise the doom universe. Hey,

1215
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: I am right with you there. In fact, I think

1216
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: some of the some of the liturgical formulas of the

1217
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 1: done universe are absolutely useful in the real world, and

1218
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: you don't have to buy into the reality of done

1219
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 1: at all. I'd say try the Litany against Fear sometime. Yeah,

1220
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 1: if you are feeling fear, say these words, I must

1221
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 1: not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the

1222
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 1: little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.

1223
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 1: I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

1224
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: And when it has gone past, I will turn the

1225
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 1: inner eye to see the path, and where the fear

1226
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 1: has gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Yeah,

1227
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: I mean I have. I have seriously taken some some

1228
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,600
Speaker 1: strength and comfort from from from those words and in

1229
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 1: the past. Yeah, I mean, they sort of take on

1230
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 1: the nature of a proverb where it's not necessarily it's

1231
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 1: not the authority of the text that gives it its power,

1232
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,760
Speaker 1: it's self evidently powerful. It's a it's a piece of

1233
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: literature that you you don't even need to know where

1234
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: it came from in order for it to be effective exactly.

1235
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:03,679
Speaker 1: So how about you, what what hyper real religion would

1236
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: you turn to cha? Well, besides that, you know, I

1237
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: do love the Litany against Fear, but my own personal

1238
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: choice for years was you know, Facebook. He used to

1239
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 1: ask you what your religion is, and I was like, well,

1240
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 1: that's none of your business. Facebook. So I'm gonna say

1241
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: Fulsa Doom. Right, the Temple of Set from the from

1242
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 1: James Earl Jones and the Schwarzenegger Conan the Barbarian movie.

1243
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm to understand Thulsa Doom is kind of different in

1244
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 1: other media, right, Yeah, but my opinion is that he

1245
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 1: gained perfection in that film. Yeah, I James Earl Jones,

1246
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,600
Speaker 1: he's the perfect Fulsa Doom. He's a great villain, but

1247
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:41,680
Speaker 1: he's a very profound and literary villain, very charismatic. What

1248
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,639
Speaker 1: is steel compared to the hand that wields it? He

1249
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 1: has the whole message that flesh is stronger than steel

1250
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: because steel is just a tool. The flesh is the will.

1251
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: And I can get behind that. I see what he's

1252
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,599
Speaker 1: getting at. Yeah, and plus the parties looked pretty cool.

1253
01:10:56,760 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, cannibal stew, giant snakes and uh, lots of

1254
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: lounging around. Yeah, well one more thing. I mean, I

1255
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 1: have to admit that there's there's ever so slight a

1256
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: temptation to some jedi Ism. I'm not saying I would

1257
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 1: ever be a jedi Ist, but I can get a

1258
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:14,759
Speaker 1: little misty when I think about the fact that luminous

1259
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: beings are we not this crude matter? All right, Well,

1260
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: there you have it. Hyper real religions kind of a

1261
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, an examination of of where we are in

1262
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: terms of modern religious faith and and fandom, where we've

1263
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 1: come from, and perhaps a new way to sort of

1264
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 1: look at these these old religions as well. Of course,

1265
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,640
Speaker 1: we want to hear from everyone else out there. Do

1266
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,639
Speaker 1: any of you guys and gals follow a hyper real religion?

1267
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 1: Do we have any uh unutologists the audience that want

1268
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Speaker 1: to speak up about about Altman, about Church of the SubGenius. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Church of the SubGenius. They're a number of big ones

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Speaker 1: that we didn't we didn't even have time to get

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Speaker 1: to in this podcast. So we would love to hear

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Speaker 1: from any and all of you about that, And sincerely,

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Speaker 1: if you want to let us know what you truly

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01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: love about this religion and why you consider it a

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01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 1: real faith. Please share. Yeah, yeah, I do so, we will.

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Speaker 1: We will keep an open mind and encourage everyone else

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Speaker 1: keep an open mind about it as well. Um. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, check us out of Stuff to Blow your

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01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:15,240
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. That's where you will find all the podcasts,

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01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: the videos, blog post links out to our social media accounts.

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Speaker 1: We are we are blow the Mind on Facebook and Twitter.

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Speaker 1: We are Stuff to Blow your Mind on tumbler, And

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Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with us with

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01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 1: the feedback to this episode or any other recent episode,

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Speaker 1: you can email us it blow the Mind at how

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01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Well more on this and thousands

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Speaker 1: of other topics. Is that how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Superstis Towns Burn