Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.
Speaker 2: You can't predict anything.
Speaker 1: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.
Speaker 1: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting
Speaker 1: for ELP. First Light has performance apparel to support every
Speaker 1: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light
Speaker 1: dot com. F I R S T L I T
Speaker 1: E dot com fills back everybody. He's got a tall chair.
Speaker 3: Ope, run camera here. I am now. Yanni's head is
Speaker 3: in the way of the I'm here.
Speaker 1: That's all the matters. I'm gonna get to introductions in
Speaker 1: a minute, but first I got up. So you know,
Speaker 1: when you see airlines airports being like voted America's favorite airport,
Speaker 1: all that's a lie. Like the best airport in the
Speaker 1: world is the Ketchcan Airport. Ketch Can't Alaska small. You
Speaker 1: can get all the food you want to eat. It's
Speaker 1: got everything you need. The main thing that I liked
Speaker 1: about it was that and Ronnie's seen this in the
Speaker 1: confiscation display, the TSA confiscation display. Since since nine to
Speaker 1: eleven they have had and they started doing that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. They have had a brass knuckles dagger as
Speaker 1: the centerpiece of the confiscation display, like a genuine like
Speaker 1: a trench knife, brass knuckles pointed in a dagger. So
Speaker 1: I always like to imagine the guy that was, like
Speaker 1: the guy that was bringing that on.
Speaker 3: The plane, who do you imagine him?
Speaker 1: But he's like, oh, you know, one thing I should
Speaker 1: probably grab is my brass dagger. So they had it
Speaker 1: and then now it's gone. And I asked him, I said,
Speaker 1: why is that gone? He says, well now, and then
Speaker 1: they go and donate all of this stuff and they'll
Speaker 1: donate it to the Boy Scouts. And I said, there's
Speaker 1: no way that the Boy Scouts is gonna give out
Speaker 1: or sell that brass knuckles dagger. So it's just missing. Now,
Speaker 1: someone somewhere now holds that brass knuckles dagger and it's
Speaker 1: not going to the boy Scouts, but they'll take it
Speaker 1: and sell buckets of that stuff, all your leather man's.
Speaker 1: And the other day my kid lost a bench made
Speaker 1: folder and he introduced the idea to me over the phone.
Speaker 1: He was flying with his mom and he tells me,
Speaker 1: you know that knife that I don't use much anymore,
Speaker 1: was his way of introing to me that it had
Speaker 1: been confiscated by TSA. Anyhow, we're going through the catch
Speaker 1: can line and Seth, we're coming from our fish shack.
Speaker 1: And as we've talked about a bunch, Seth bought the
Speaker 1: mold you fallen down fish shack next to our not
Speaker 1: falling down moldy fish shack. And my little boy, my
Speaker 1: eight year old, was over hanging out at seths place,
Speaker 1: and they gave him a sling shot, the old school
Speaker 1: kind of the wooden handle and surgical rubber. So we're
Speaker 1: in we're leaving ketch can and he's all been out
Speaker 1: of shape because he's worried about how he's got the
Speaker 1: slingshot in his bag. And we're conversing with the TSA
Speaker 1: guys about what exactly happened to the where the brass
Speaker 1: knuckle dagger is, and then I'm not buying that. The
Speaker 1: boy scouts are auctioning it off, and my kid says, listen,
Speaker 1: I have this slingshot and the guy he gets it out,
Speaker 1: and the guy holds it and stretches it and says,
Speaker 1: you're okay, next time, put it in your bag we're
Speaker 1: gonna let it fly. We fly from Ketchcan to Seattle,
Speaker 1: and Seattle like, we got to go to Terminal D
Speaker 1: and we're way far away and they're doing some construction.
Speaker 1: So we get off the train and normally, it seems
Speaker 1: to me, normally it doesn't matter what escalator you go up,
Speaker 1: you wind up where you're trying to get to. But
Speaker 1: I'm not paying any attention. I'm talking to my kids.
Speaker 1: And we wind up at baggage claim, which means we
Speaker 1: have to go back through security. And I'm telling my kids,
Speaker 1: I don't understand what I did, but we gotta go
Speaker 1: back to security. Two of them had already thrown out
Speaker 1: their boarding passes. So anyhow we get we had we
Speaker 1: get in line and here's the bagpack again, and my
Speaker 1: kids like, man, I'm super worried about my slingshot. And
Speaker 1: I watched all the bags go through and that bag
Speaker 1: stops and somehow that TSA guy is so sharp. There's
Speaker 1: no metal on this slingshot. It's a wooden handle and
Speaker 1: surgical tubing. And he snatches that bag out and says,
Speaker 1: is there a slingshot in his bag? And I said, yup.
Speaker 1: It blocks my eight year old they said it's fine.
Speaker 1: They said it's fine, and catch can not fine in
Speaker 1: Seattle confiscated it. So now there's gonna be some boy
Speaker 1: scout running around with my kids slingshot and at brand
Speaker 1: knuckles dagger when I find them.
Speaker 2: TSA's website addresses this.
Speaker 4: It says slingshots carry on bags, no checked bags.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Well, the thing I was pointing out to him, and
Speaker 1: when we were hashing this out is I was saying,
Speaker 1: it's not like it's it's not a wrist rocket. It's
Speaker 1: an old schooler. He spent two weeks shooting that slingshot
Speaker 1: off the deck of art thing, and he was barely
Speaker 1: clearing the water line.
Speaker 4: Slingshots, by TSA categorization are the same as yo. Yo's
Speaker 4: not allowed in your carry on, but they are allowed
Speaker 4: in check bags because.
Speaker 1: You're gonna garrett someone with a Yois Garrett? Mean? You
Speaker 1: know you're watching mobster movies in Peter You're you're the
Speaker 1: guy in the bag seat kills the guy in the
Speaker 1: front seat by strangled him.
Speaker 2: I never heard it called garrett.
Speaker 1: That's a term. Yeah, I like that. How do you
Speaker 1: not know that? I just don't.
Speaker 3: That's gonna help you in a Future Trivia episode.
Speaker 1: One more thing before we do our intros. This is
Speaker 1: this is highly unlikely one of my absolute favorite bands
Speaker 1: of all time, The Brian Jonestown Massacre is coming to
Speaker 1: town October sec and already hold my tickets for me
Speaker 1: and my wife. I'm thinking of you guys fish. There's
Speaker 1: probably no way you guys fish, but if you fish
Speaker 1: or anything, let me know. I will take you fishing
Speaker 1: while you're in town. Joy today, Bye, Where do we start? Yannis?
Speaker 1: Do them all up? Because I gotta look at some stuff.
Speaker 3: Oh geez, I'm not gonna do a good job. I'm
Speaker 3: not prepped up for this episode. That well, you're gonna
Speaker 3: have to do the intros. Big boy, Okay. Brent Reeves
Speaker 3: is here today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just hear because you like dogs and you're
Speaker 1: in town. It's just a happy coincidence. His wife, Alexis
Speaker 1: is here. How long you guys been married? I think
Speaker 1: twelve years?
Speaker 5: She thinks twelve years. I knew you was going to
Speaker 5: ask this question. We're waiting on the lift at the
Speaker 5: hotel and she came. She was getting ready, and she
Speaker 5: walked into where I was sitting, and I said, now
Speaker 5: we've married, how long.
Speaker 6: You know you asked me what year we were married?
Speaker 5: Okay, whatever it was. From now on, just direct all
Speaker 5: the questions to Mike Atarney.
Speaker 1: Uh, you're honest. You tell us, of course, Spencer Newhart,
Speaker 1: Ronnie Bam many time guests, Ronnie Bam are living our
Speaker 1: our expert on dogs that are living today and what
Speaker 1: they have going on. And then we have a dire wolf,
Speaker 1: an ancient dog expert. How do you like to classify yourself?
Speaker 6: I mean that sounds good.
Speaker 2: Really, I'll take it.
Speaker 1: Sure, you know the first question I'm gonna ask you.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to answer it yet, but I
Speaker 1: want you to know. The first question I'm gonna ask you is,
Speaker 1: And I want you to think about this because you
Speaker 1: guys are gonna you're gonna nitpick this question. Who How
Speaker 1: long ago did someone have the first pet dog? And
Speaker 1: I'll define pet like a dog where the owner could
Speaker 1: at any given time account for where that dog was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I want you to mull that over. You
Speaker 1: got a good one lined up?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 7: Really?
Speaker 1: Like it's not it's not well known to science.
Speaker 7: It's no, it's more in my category.
Speaker 1: No, it's not in category. You tell me you're not
Speaker 1: gonna tell me the way that satisfies me. On what
Speaker 1: continent and in what is today's country, and in what year?
Speaker 7: And they sent the Messegi's up to the Pharaohs.
Speaker 6: They put the big old bells on there the pharaohs.
Speaker 1: Someone had a dog, pet a pet dog way before that.
Speaker 7: That's just one I could do.
Speaker 1: You agree right? Don't answer? Yeah, Steve.
Speaker 7: You also didn't mention her name.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm sorry, Angela Perry. What are you tell me?
Speaker 1: Who are you affiliated with?
Speaker 6: I'm a professor at Texas and University and I work
Speaker 6: in commercial cultural resource management commercial archaeology as well, helping
Speaker 6: people manage their heritage aka archaeology.
Speaker 1: Oh, I got it. Do you interface with a frequent guest?
Speaker 1: We have David Meltzer who's he's at a different school,
Speaker 1: But you got interface ever on ancient old stuff.
Speaker 6: I mean Texas A and M and S m U
Speaker 6: what we do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you guys, you guys hate each other.
Speaker 6: Neither one of us are from Texas, so.
Speaker 4: We don't care in the same journals.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, we written papers together and I yeah, we
Speaker 6: wrote a paper about dogs coming to the Americas with people.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how long you've been at Texas, A.
Speaker 6: And M one year.
Speaker 1: Where were we at before then?
Speaker 6: The United Kingdom UK? Doing what archaeology?
Speaker 1: Did you did you spend time at the Did you
Speaker 1: spend time at the Ancient DNA place in Oxford?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I work really closely with Gregor Larsen and the Ancient
Speaker 6: DNA group Oxford.
Speaker 1: Do you work with Best Shapirol, she's been on the show.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, Beth and I Best on the dire Wolf
Speaker 6: paper with us. We work together to try to get
Speaker 6: DNA out of dire wolves. Took a long time.
Speaker 1: We did it such a little clique.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I got one club.
Speaker 1: I got one. You can't answer right now and it
Speaker 1: won't detract from because we won't get into it too
Speaker 1: much later. We had a big argument. Do you remember
Speaker 1: the Spencer? No, we had a big argument about what
Speaker 1: big argument. Spencer wasn't in it. Huh were there ever
Speaker 1: dire wolves? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I was the one who you know.
Speaker 1: I got such a bone to pick with you, dude?
Speaker 1: Were there? But here? Was there ever dire wolves in Alaska?
Speaker 6: North of the wall? You mean, and there we go?
Speaker 1: What is that that that takes place in Alaska?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: You know Arctic?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 6: Good question. We the real answer is we aren't sure.
Speaker 6: So there are a couple possible dire wolves. We have
Speaker 6: this issue though, that we have dire wolves, we have
Speaker 6: gray wolves. We also have something called the Bringian wolf
Speaker 6: now extinct wolf. All of them look very very similar morphologically,
Speaker 6: bones look very similar. So we have people like me
Speaker 6: zo archaeologists go through a lot of bones trying to
Speaker 6: figure out how someone called this a x y Z.
Speaker 6: I mean not that long ago. I was in the
Speaker 6: Illinois State Museum where I work a lot, and digging
Speaker 6: through some boxes. Read about a puppy burial. Digging, digging,
Speaker 6: Let me find this puppy burial they found in the seventies.
Speaker 6: Dig it out bobcat, real popcat.
Speaker 1: So you got to go digging around behind, you got
Speaker 1: to go digging around behind round. I think they all
Speaker 1: went to farms. It's like a puppy mass grave.
Speaker 2: Was that the bobcat that they put like shell necks?
Speaker 6: I had a necklace on it and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: I had a had a cool necklace. It had marine
Speaker 6: and fresh water pearls on it, and then it had
Speaker 6: they were carved like two bear canines, but they were
Speaker 6: like deer long bones, but they've been carved to look
Speaker 6: like bear canines, really strung up. We found it buried.
Speaker 6: The photos from the excavation in the seventies like have
Speaker 6: it laying out in a burial with the necklace clearly round.
Speaker 6: So they thought like, oh, it must be a dog,
Speaker 6: must be a puppy.
Speaker 1: They took so someone had taken deer long bones and
Speaker 1: carved them to look like barri caneines.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you were wanted to recognize it.
Speaker 1: Like fake the earliest fake diamond.
Speaker 6: I mean it's pretty I mean it's pretty cool. I
Speaker 6: mean they pulled it out. Listen what we do for
Speaker 6: zoo archaeology identifying you know, animal remains at archaeological sites.
Speaker 6: This is not This is a fairly new kind of
Speaker 6: category of archaeology. Before that, you take your bones that
Speaker 6: you found, you sent to a biologist or zoologist or
Speaker 6: something like that, or you just kind of rough it
Speaker 6: in the field. I'm an archaeologist. I don't know. It
Speaker 6: looks like it could be a dog. Probably dog. Put
Speaker 6: it in a box, put it right, puppy burial on
Speaker 6: the box. Put it away. In forty years, someone will
Speaker 6: come along, Miss America can tell me what it is bobcatt? Yeah,
Speaker 6: so it wasn't a mound in Illinois.
Speaker 7: Is it possible it was a domesticated bobcat?
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I think so, Little pet, I don't know.
Speaker 6: You tell me, can you domesticate a bobcat?
Speaker 1: Well, no, you can't. You can domesticate a bobcat. A
Speaker 1: you can't domesticate bobcat cat.
Speaker 6: You can tame yet a bobcat not domesticated with the
Speaker 6: definition of domesticated.
Speaker 1: Well from.
Speaker 2: Dollars in Alaska? Real quick?
Speaker 1: Wasn't there a declaration they wanted to hear the bone
Speaker 1: I have to pick with you.
Speaker 4: Well a second, wasn't there a declaration made in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty that there were diar wolves found in Asia? Like,
Speaker 4: wouldn't that imply that they had to get there via Alaska?
Speaker 6: There was a declaration made.
Speaker 2: Okay, but it's not not accepted, not yet.
Speaker 1: No, No, I mean the media jumps the gun. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: go ahead, the media jumps the gun. Someone will come
Speaker 1: out with the paper to beat to say, hey, here's
Speaker 1: the thing that like a thing that would be warrant exploration,
Speaker 1: and they and then they come up with a headline
Speaker 1: humans in New World way before previously thought, and then
Speaker 1: you read it and you going, eh, I mean they
Speaker 1: got like a date off a thing that probably isn't valid,
Speaker 1: and they don't include all that in the headline.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're in the world of like sexy archaeology, right, So, dogs, DNA,
Speaker 6: peopling of the Americas, all these things get like hot
Speaker 6: topic headlines.
Speaker 1: That's why you're here, you know, right exactly.
Speaker 6: That's why I'm here. Diar wolves in Alaska, who knows.
Speaker 6: Dire wolves don't seem to like cold weather. They were
Speaker 6: hanging out a lot in lower latitudes near water. They're
Speaker 6: into Florida, they're into Texas, they're into southern California with
Speaker 6: tirees like they're a tires exactly. They're snowbirds. They're not.
Speaker 6: They don't seem to like the cold weather too much.
Speaker 6: So been hard to believe. You might have had some
Speaker 6: that like wandered aimlessly into somewhere north, but they're not
Speaker 6: like really hanging out there. It's not their place, got it?
Speaker 1: So in Krin's words, Angela Perry, you might pronounce that correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: is well Krinn messed up. It'd be an archaeologist Krin.
Speaker 1: Angela Perry is in Krin's words. Archaeologist, Oh, she corrected
Speaker 1: it is an archaeologist and professor at Texas A and M.
Speaker 7: Her.
Speaker 1: Area's expertise include environmental archaeology, got it, zoe archaeology, got it, parasitology.
Speaker 1: First time ever heard that word? I got it, palaeo ecology,
Speaker 1: got it. Hunter gathers domestication, adaptation and candids. Also, Ronnie
Speaker 1: Bame hosts the Honting Dog podcast. Brent Reeves hosts This
Speaker 1: Country Life on the met Eater Network and often hunts
Speaker 1: with dogs. We're gonna come back to all that in
Speaker 1: a minute. Another invitation.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, I'm an inspiring dog owner.
Speaker 1: Really, this is a noe doubt and I'm gonna hit
Speaker 1: you up on Instagram too. The Butcher of hoy Lake
Speaker 1: a golfer, so Barons. Here's the headline from Baron's The
Speaker 1: Butcher of hoy Lake stays patient as he hunts British
Speaker 1: Open Crown. So there's a there's a golfer, real good
Speaker 1: at golfing. I see that he uh in all his
Speaker 1: interviews about golf, and he always talks about hunting. I
Speaker 1: want to have so I'd like to have you come
Speaker 1: on the podcast because I feel that golf is the
Speaker 1: antithesis of hunting. Like you can't get if I looked
Speaker 1: at a person golfing, a person sitting on a chair
Speaker 1: reading in a person hunting, and I had to rate him,
Speaker 1: like who's closest, honey, I would pick the person on
Speaker 1: the chair because maybe they're reading about hunting. It's like
Speaker 1: I would love to have Brian Harmon on guy. So
Speaker 1: there's an invite, Please come on the show. We're gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, We're gonna dog on you about playing golf
Speaker 1: and you can defend yourself. Just killed the biggest deer
Speaker 1: of his life two years ago. Only hunts mature box
Speaker 1: butcher's his own deer. Nice and won a golfing contest.
Speaker 3: Real big golfing contest, like a big golfing tournament.
Speaker 4: There are four majors, Steve, he won the wrong one
Speaker 4: because this is the only one held outside of the
Speaker 4: United States. Thus, the European media didn't take a liking
Speaker 4: to his very American hunting culture. Oh that's how they
Speaker 4: kind came.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're like the you know they're king, they're
Speaker 1: king guys used to go hunting, for sure. The current
Speaker 1: ones the one I think the one that app the
Speaker 1: one that like, the one that abs gone to do America.
Speaker 1: I think he used. Yeah, he used to hunt, and
Speaker 1: I think the one that stayed put used to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: If you'd go to Brian's Instagram, you wouldn't even know
Speaker 4: he was a golfer. He looks like a plain old hunter.
Speaker 1: Oh really, God, please come on the show. Did he
Speaker 1: come on the show? Krin, You're gonna reach out to him.
Speaker 8: You're going to reach out to him.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to have him on the show. Um,
Speaker 1: it's what else is in here? And that's interesting? That's
Speaker 1: not interesting? Now that it's not interesting, it's all interesting, Crin.
Speaker 1: It's just I'm just trying to be cognizant of time,
Speaker 1: and to be honesty, I didn't look at everything that
Speaker 1: was interesting in the right frame of reference. Oh why
Speaker 1: did you scratch out why astrology is stupid?
Speaker 8: Because I didn't think that.
Speaker 1: That was the most interesting thing.
Speaker 8: I didn't think that the explanation was.
Speaker 1: Like, but that great explanation. So guy right saying he
Speaker 1: knows that I hate astrology, and I think I've talked
Speaker 1: about making my own twelve signs? Have I told you
Speaker 1: about that? Like instead of looking up your sign, I'll
Speaker 1: make up twelve. That'd be like your dad was a
Speaker 1: drunk and beat you, so you look it up and
Speaker 1: you'd be like, you'll have you'll have trust issues. You'll
Speaker 1: have trust issues today, Like you're extraordinarily wealthy, but you
Speaker 1: inherited all the money, and you can look it up
Speaker 1: and be like, be an easy day today, but you
Speaker 1: might feel existential crises. And then it'd be a much
Speaker 1: more accurate way to find out what's going to happen
Speaker 1: today than it would be to look at astrology. But
Speaker 1: this guy was saying. This guy wrote in Why It's
Speaker 1: All Wrong everyone thinks there's something other than they are,
Speaker 1: and he explains the Earth currently revolves around the Sun
Speaker 1: and spins on its axis with a twenty three point
Speaker 1: five degree tilt that, in conjunction with Earth's rotation around
Speaker 1: the Sun, gives us the seasons. Got it. This tilt
Speaker 1: changes wobbles in a formal process called precession. This also
Speaker 1: affects climate. This matters because thousands of years ago, when
Speaker 1: astrological signs were defined, the night sky was positionally different
Speaker 1: than it is now. So when someone says they're are
Speaker 1: Aquarius or Virgo, or whatever. They're actually off by a month.
Speaker 1: In that night sky they were referring to via zodias
Speaker 1: vote via the zodiac sign, so it's not even accurate anyway.
Speaker 1: So you follow me. So I always run around liking
Speaker 1: to tell people that I'm Aquarius, I believe, but I'm not.
Speaker 1: That was interesting, and you made up twelve of those. No, only,
Speaker 1: I'm just still working on the concept. So I got
Speaker 1: to find twelve that capture everybody, and then you'll be
Speaker 1: able to look every morning and I'll tell you a
Speaker 1: little bit about how the day is going to go. Perfect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can help me with that. On it, I'm on it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you can help me with the one about criminals
Speaker 1: that you get it like you're a criminal, and then we
Speaker 1: can look out and they'll give you some under the
Speaker 1: sign of handcuffs. Oh we got to do signs too, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like the handcuffs signed, the bar shadows from the window,
Speaker 1: the money sign.
Speaker 5: The bar shadows from the window are your first clue
Speaker 5: that you're dreaming?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 1: All right, getting on now, Krein, When do you imagine
Speaker 1: that we plugged Roundie's project?
Speaker 8: I was gonna say a little bit later on.
Speaker 1: Okay, So We're gonna dig right in. Can we save
Speaker 1: all that stuff? Though? Yeah, normally this had all happen
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, but feel so cranky about his video
Speaker 1: that we can't be behind the scenes anymore.
Speaker 3: Sausage is getting made.
Speaker 1: We're seeing it. Okay, all right, let's dig in. Now.
Speaker 1: Have you thought about what my question?
Speaker 6: Which one?
Speaker 7: Okay?
Speaker 1: And this that's a question that's going to require you
Speaker 1: to is a question that's going to require you to
Speaker 1: define a bunch of points.
Speaker 6: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: We lately. When I say lately, I mean in recent years,
Speaker 1: you see headline after headline after headline as dogs become
Speaker 1: more popular and more treat people treat dogs more like people.
Speaker 1: People are infatuated with dogs. You see more and more
Speaker 1: headlines sort of speculating on when the what is the
Speaker 1: genesis of dog ownership, What is the genesis of the
Speaker 1: pet dog? Who first domesticated the dog? When did they
Speaker 1: domesticate the dog? How was the dog domesticated? So I'm
Speaker 1: trying to put in a clean question that would let
Speaker 1: you explore some of these definitions to say who had
Speaker 1: the first dog, when and where?
Speaker 6: Generous of you set those questions up for us? Okay, Well,
Speaker 6: good questions. I think that where we're at in people
Speaker 6: who are into a dogs is probably that we are
Speaker 6: we are moving away from just like Neanderthals. You probably
Speaker 6: had like Meton and Dave talking about this and when
Speaker 6: they were on before. Are we previously thought like, oh,
Speaker 6: Neanderthals are these like kind of brutish people who can't
Speaker 6: figure anything out. More learning that they're doing all these
Speaker 6: amazing things. And I think around dogs, we've always had
Speaker 6: this idea that probably it's only recently that we've been
Speaker 6: doing like training and breeding and very specific stuff, and
Speaker 6: up until this point, dogs have just been kind of
Speaker 6: wandering in their own left to their own devices. That's
Speaker 6: probably not the case. So some of the work we're
Speaker 6: starting to do now is trying to figure out the
Speaker 6: genetic lineages of working dogs. You know, when do people
Speaker 6: really start breeding dogs to be working dogs, birding dogs
Speaker 6: or hunting dogs or sled dogs or any of these
Speaker 6: kinds of things.
Speaker 1: Breedy meaning I'm going to take this one which is great, yeah,
Speaker 1: put it with this one which is great, yeah, and
Speaker 1: hopefully continue this this yeah, continue this like set of
Speaker 1: behaviors or whatever.
Speaker 6: Right, So brings tricky, right, because it not only means
Speaker 6: you have to put things together, but you have to
Speaker 6: keep things apart. Right, So you have some dogs that
Speaker 6: you're like, Nope, don't want them, not those aren't the
Speaker 6: good ones. We don't want them breeding with the ones
Speaker 6: who are good at this. So it takes some forethought,
Speaker 6: takes some planning, take some ways to keep them apart
Speaker 6: from each other. Right, So we did a pay for
Speaker 6: a couple years ago now on some rock art we
Speaker 6: found in Saudi Arabia showing people hunting with dogs at
Speaker 6: several sites. These dogs had leashes on them, very clearly
Speaker 6: le leashed dogs. Some of them were a couple dogs,
Speaker 6: some of them like huge groups of dogs. Some of
Speaker 6: the dogs were leashed, some of the dogs weren't leashed.
Speaker 1: And this is rock art.
Speaker 6: It's rock art, right. And so what's interesting as well,
Speaker 6: if you're interested in hunting and how people are using dogs,
Speaker 6: is that these are two different locations as well. So
Speaker 6: you have one site that's kind of an oasis area
Speaker 6: where you clearly are gonna have animals that are coming
Speaker 6: up to drink and eat and they're gonna be trying
Speaker 6: to ambush prey at a watering hole. And then you
Speaker 6: have another location where you also have dog hunting rock art.
Speaker 6: That's this kind of narrow escarpment valley where you're clearly
Speaker 6: going to be using dogs to like chase hunt animals
Speaker 6: into a location where then you're going to kill them.
Speaker 6: And the depictions of how they're using dogs and these
Speaker 6: two locations are very different.
Speaker 1: Your hand gesture for kill very violent. She stabbed with
Speaker 1: stabbed with both hands at once.
Speaker 6: This is what we're doing, right, So.
Speaker 1: She's the first criminal astrological.
Speaker 6: So what's interesting about that rocker is that, yeah, we
Speaker 6: have leashes, so they're clearly controlling dogs.
Speaker 1: But what you're going to get to when the rock
Speaker 1: art was made.
Speaker 6: Yes, so rock art hard to date, but pre Neolithic,
Speaker 6: so before the arrival of agriculture, so probably nine to
Speaker 6: ten thousand years ago, eight thousand years ago something.
Speaker 1: They were leashed dogs, leashed.
Speaker 6: Dogs, leash dogs. What's interesting about this that we notice
Speaker 6: is that they're depicting in some places tons of like
Speaker 6: twenty thirty forty dogs, groups of dogs with very specific
Speaker 6: patterning and very specific like morphotypes of the dogs. So
Speaker 6: it almost appears as if they're depicting individual dogs that
Speaker 6: are like known to them, you know, they're not just
Speaker 6: drawing dog, dog, dog that, Oh, this one has spots here,
Speaker 6: this one has a pattern on its chest, here, this
Speaker 6: one has this. So you start to get this impression
Speaker 6: that very very early on, people are thinking of dogs
Speaker 6: as like individuals, and that they're thinking of dogs as
Speaker 6: members of the group, members of the hunting party, and
Speaker 6: that they're it's not this idea of like just take
Speaker 6: the dogs or blindly going out for a hunt, whatever
Speaker 6: happens happens, right, that there's planning involved, that there's some
Speaker 6: kind of method involved, and that the dogs are individuals
Speaker 6: known to them and are in many ways probably equal
Speaker 6: members of the hunting group.
Speaker 1: You read a lot into this.
Speaker 6: It was my PhD, So maybe I am reading a
Speaker 6: lot into it. But I mean they're depicting dogs very
Speaker 6: specifically right in some interesting ways. So I would say
Speaker 6: probably by that time there's some effort to you know,
Speaker 6: control dogs, train dogs, breed dogs, do some some kind
Speaker 6: of like and does that lead to a pet? Is
Speaker 6: that a pet?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 6: Dogs are interesting because they're kind of like a Swiss
Speaker 6: army knife of tools, right, So my interest in dogs
Speaker 6: is dogs is technology. Right, They're the first biotechnology. If
Speaker 6: we think about all the things that we do with
Speaker 6: animals these days in terms of technology, dogs are where
Speaker 6: all of that started. Before dogs we dead to everything ourselves.
Speaker 6: We had to figure out how to hunt, We had
Speaker 6: to figure out how to track things. We had to
Speaker 6: figure out how to do all this ourselves. Dogs are
Speaker 6: the first time that we went, oh, wait a minute,
Speaker 6: like something else can do this for us? Oh, yeah,
Speaker 6: it's better than we are, right right. So you can
Speaker 6: use a dog to hunt, You can use a dog
Speaker 6: to pull a sled, but you can also use dog
Speaker 6: as a bed warmer. You could also use a dog
Speaker 6: as emergency food, for source alarm system sanitation around your
Speaker 6: camp site. The dog does a lot of things.
Speaker 1: Dog is technology, right, are you hip to the eye
Speaker 1: to the theory? I'm sure you've heard it that dogs
Speaker 1: perhaps self domesticated, meaning here you have these these roving
Speaker 1: bands of hunters or these migratory bands of hunters, and
Speaker 1: they leave a lot of waste, gut piles, carcasses, and
Speaker 1: dogs are just kind of glued to them.
Speaker 6: Yeah right, yeah.
Speaker 1: And over time like that as a possible explanation for
Speaker 1: how it came to be, and it wasn't bad to
Speaker 1: have them around. They would alert the you know you
Speaker 1: to the presence of things, and maybe that helps explain
Speaker 1: how it came to be that these two species, yeah,
Speaker 1: develop some sort of symbiosis.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think this is probably the kind of
Speaker 6: going theory at the moment. It used to be probably
Speaker 6: we thought, oh, taking cute wolf pups or something like
Speaker 6: that was probably how it happened. But this is unlikely.
Speaker 6: It's hard for us to think through the process of
Speaker 6: domestication with dogs. They're the first domesticated anything, first domesticated animal, plant, anything,
Speaker 6: first concept of domestication is dogs. So prior to dog domestication,
Speaker 6: we have no concept of what kind of a domestic sphere, plant,
Speaker 6: or animal would look like. Right, So the idea that
Speaker 6: people intentionally domesticate a dog without any concept of what
Speaker 6: domestication would mean is unlikely.
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's a cool point. I never
Speaker 1: thought about that, how they had no plants yet, No,
Speaker 1: not so, Yeah, they were like, I'm gonna do with
Speaker 1: this raccoon like we did with our dog.
Speaker 3: But it's a.
Speaker 6: Domino effect after that. Right after the first thing is domesticated,
Speaker 6: then they're like, oh shit, look at all these things
Speaker 6: out here. But horses, cows, goats, sheep, donkey. I mean,
Speaker 6: then they just go for it right. Then after that,
Speaker 6: it's just a slew of animals that are domesticated one
Speaker 6: after the other, mostly livestock animals, but also domesticating a
Speaker 6: dangerous carnivore like that. That's not intentional, right, Why are
Speaker 6: you gonna go out take some time? Why are you
Speaker 6: gonna go out and be like, you know what I'm
Speaker 6: gonna I'm gonna domesticate. I don't know what domestication is,
Speaker 6: but this is what we're gonna do. And you know what,
Speaker 6: do you know where we're starting. We're not starting with
Speaker 6: the juicy horses. We are starting with the wolf. This is,
Speaker 6: you know, our dangerous predator competition. Yeah, what you're saying
Speaker 6: is more likely, Yeah, it is. It's a it's a wolf.
Speaker 6: We you know, you said you had Beth on the
Speaker 6: show before. We cannot find have not found the wolf
Speaker 6: population from which it comes. Not it's not our gray wolves.
Speaker 6: It's a gray wolf ancestor. But whatever lineage dogs come
Speaker 6: from that gray wolf ancestor is most likely not with
Speaker 6: us anymore extinct, but very closely related to to our
Speaker 6: modern gray wolves. They are wolves.
Speaker 1: Though, well, how how many? How many I was gonna
Speaker 1: say how many canines or do we have globally? But
Speaker 1: that's not very helpful because then you get into like
Speaker 1: kit foxes and right, how many if you look, so
Speaker 1: there's an African wild dog, right and you have what's
Speaker 1: that one in in Australia.
Speaker 2: Those are domesticated, right, but they can live without people?
Speaker 6: Yeah, so dingoes. So dingoes are domesticated dogs that arrive
Speaker 6: with the first peoples in Australia and.
Speaker 1: Then oh okay, so they arrived with people.
Speaker 6: They arrive and then they're like, we're out of here.
Speaker 6: They head off to the outback or wherever in Australia.
Speaker 6: So they are far dogs in many ways. But this
Speaker 6: is a debate.
Speaker 1: But they're a wolf, yeah, I mean, I mean sorry,
Speaker 1: they are Okay, they're originally from a wolf, right.
Speaker 4: Weirdly dingos are classifieds like vulnerable or threatened. Strikes me strange.
Speaker 6: It's an interesting debate in Australia right now about dingoes
Speaker 6: that you know, some people would like to classify them
Speaker 6: as a pest species. They're just a dog that's gone feral.
Speaker 6: They're feral dogs. They're destroying everything. But others say, like,
Speaker 6: maybe they are a dog, a domesticated dog, but they've
Speaker 6: been in many ways rewilded. They've been alone for thousands
Speaker 6: and thousands of years, and they effectively act as a
Speaker 6: wild animal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the ancestral Australians arrived there forty thousand.
Speaker 6: Years ago, right, they would have not arrived forty thousand
Speaker 6: years ago, they would have been there I think five
Speaker 6: thousand years the.
Speaker 1: Dog, Yeah, the dog dogs later wave a later.
Speaker 6: Wave of people. So, but you know, five thousand years
Speaker 6: kind of hanging out on their own. Also, the New
Speaker 6: Guinea singing dog very closely related to dingoes in New Guinea,
Speaker 6: totally totally isolated, domesticated dog, but has been isolated alone
Speaker 6: for thousands and thousands of functions as a wild animal.
Speaker 6: Is a domesticated dog functions as a wild animal?
Speaker 1: When you did anyone, I'm trying to go back real
Speaker 1: deep here for a minute, and then I'm gonna jump
Speaker 1: away into the future. When in the in the during
Speaker 1: the African diaspora, was anybody packing dogs?
Speaker 6: No, no, no, no, we don't have So the paper
Speaker 6: that I wrote, Dave Meltzer proposed that domestication of dogs
Speaker 6: probably happened in Siberia around twenty three thousand years ago.
Speaker 6: What we're always missing. When I'm like laying in bed
Speaker 6: at night as an archaeologist thinking about dogs, what I
Speaker 6: think about is like, why, right, we're hanging out with
Speaker 6: wolves for tens of thousands of years the landscape hunting
Speaker 6: alongside them, predators just like us, daylight hunters who form
Speaker 6: packs to take down animals larger than ourselves. Very very similar.
Speaker 1: We're calling us daylight hunters.
Speaker 6: I mean, you could be a nighttime hunter if you want.
Speaker 1: But that's what Yeah, Okay, I just got I didn't
Speaker 1: know if you're talking about you're talking about so humans
Speaker 1: being like daylight pack.
Speaker 6: Hunters, very similar to wolves. Right, we have a similar
Speaker 6: social structure, we take care of each other as young.
Speaker 6: We're very similar to wolves and lots of ways, and
Speaker 6: we would have seen and known wolves on the landscape
Speaker 6: for tens of thousands of years prior to domestication. So
Speaker 6: the question is why, now? What what drives domestication to occur?
Speaker 6: So going back to your idea of was it an
Speaker 6: accident that they domesticate themselves around that time, and lots
Speaker 6: of parts of the world we had pretty crap climate
Speaker 6: stuff happening right the LGN, the last Glacial Maximum, not
Speaker 6: a nice time to hang out in a lot of
Speaker 6: parts of Eurasia. So we have populations of hunter gatherers
Speaker 6: wore essentially kind of isolated in Siberia, so they kind
Speaker 6: of get stuck there. There's a refugeia of some decent
Speaker 6: kind of climate and locations up there, but moving between
Speaker 6: that and the rest of your Asia would have been
Speaker 6: kind of nasty time, so they kind of isolate up there.
Speaker 6: I don't know how long they've been up there, for
Speaker 6: thousands of years, though two to nine thousand years they're
Speaker 6: hanging up.
Speaker 1: Can I point out that I'm quite envious of those people.
Speaker 1: They got to hunt the woodly rhinoceros right exactly. So
Speaker 1: they're up there, which is just if you're going to
Speaker 1: do something cool, that's about the epitome of coolness.
Speaker 6: So they're up there with these populations of animals who
Speaker 6: are also up there in this kind of refugium, but
Speaker 6: also wolves. Wolves are kind of isolated up there with
Speaker 6: them as well, so they become less mobile in this
Speaker 6: kind of smaller area than they're used to, And something
Speaker 6: like that has to be the driver. There has to
Speaker 6: be some reason that dogs become domesticated. And probably, as
Speaker 6: you were saying, they're hunting, they're leaving scraps around, and
Speaker 6: some group of wolves somewhere decided, you know what, today's
Speaker 6: the day. I'm not gonna risk everything and go out
Speaker 6: and hunt this deer or wool urine or something like
Speaker 6: that on my own. Why would I do that when
Speaker 6: it's much easier.
Speaker 1: Scraps, right, competitors too, wouldn't.
Speaker 3: They, right?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's much easy.
Speaker 7: One of them scavenged off the other and figured it out. Yeah, right.
Speaker 6: And so you know people in Alaska right now, lots
Speaker 6: of parts of the world, Russia deal with us all
Speaker 6: the time, right, So there are dangerous predators who hang out.
Speaker 6: Bears are around, lots of village sce. People don't run
Speaker 6: them off anymore. They just learn to live alongside. They're
Speaker 6: going through the trash. They're not really bothering anyone. They're
Speaker 6: just doing their thing. Humans like, as long as they
Speaker 6: don't bother us, we won't bother them. This kind of
Speaker 6: like symbiotic relationship of they eat our trash and don't
Speaker 6: bother us, that's fine. We could see that happening with
Speaker 6: wolves where you know, you butcher some kind of mammoth
Speaker 6: or something like that. You take what you want, You
Speaker 6: go back to your campsite. You don't really care if
Speaker 6: the wolves are scavenging off the leftovers, as long as
Speaker 6: they don't bother you, and they're kind of at an
Speaker 6: arms distance. Why bother them, right? And so what ends
Speaker 6: up happening is that, you know, wolves have culture. Wolves
Speaker 6: learn to hunt from their parents and other pac members.
Speaker 6: And when you have generations of wolves that have no
Speaker 6: longer no longer hunt, right, they're scavengers. Now, then what
Speaker 6: do they teach their young to be scavengers? And then
Speaker 6: they're young or scavengers And then eventually you have generations
Speaker 6: of wolves have never hunted. They only know scavenging, so
Speaker 6: going back to a hunting lifestyle is not as easy
Speaker 6: for them, and they only know a scavenging lifestyle. And
Speaker 6: eventually you kind of narrow that population down to this
Speaker 6: population of wolves that are scavengers who are comfortable living
Speaker 6: alongside humans. And then that's just like righte for becoming
Speaker 6: a dog.
Speaker 1: How long would something like that take?
Speaker 6: I mean, would only take a few generations, right to
Speaker 6: get wolves that have never hunted before?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Not Yeah, well, how did it backfill? See, I
Speaker 1: thought the answer is gonna be different because you're talking
Speaker 1: about these these pre agriculture cave art or rock art.
Speaker 1: Is it is it? Petro? What the hell? Witch is witch?
Speaker 2: Petro?
Speaker 1: And pictol which pitographs or petroglyphs pictographs Aret, that's a
Speaker 1: chiseling noise. Yeah, and this is petroglyphs. So it backfilled.
Speaker 1: It went in reverse, meaning humans were in Saudi Arabia
Speaker 1: long before they were in Siberia. And if the technology
Speaker 1: did I just say, yeah, humans were in Saudi Arabia
Speaker 1: long before they were in Siberia. So if the technology
Speaker 1: emerged in Siberia, it's somehow also yeah, yeah, so like
Speaker 1: it transferred. Yeah, not just the direction that people were
Speaker 1: that some people were.
Speaker 6: Flowing, it would have dispersed. So if we're right about Siberia,
Speaker 6: you have dogs essentially being domesticated there on their own accord.
Speaker 6: And then once the lgm's kind of nasty climatic thing
Speaker 6: simmers down and we get into the Holo scene, then
Speaker 6: people disperse. So the ancestors of Native Americans they make
Speaker 6: their way across the Beringian land Bridge into the Americas.
Speaker 6: But also that population disperses back down into the rest
Speaker 6: of Eurasia and Arabia and everywhere else across the world.
Speaker 1: When those first Americans, whenever I talk about BRINGI hoards
Speaker 1: like to point this out, is that people no one
Speaker 1: and maybe you'll disagree, no one in Siberia woke up
Speaker 1: one day and said, fred, let's go to America. Okay.
Speaker 1: They hadn't been there, they didn't know what was there.
Speaker 1: And I feel that the generations of generations of humans
Speaker 1: would have lived and died in what is now the
Speaker 1: Bearing Sea. Yep, right, you were not. You were moving along,
Speaker 1: and you know some day you go like, let's go
Speaker 1: check the next valley. Oh that's pretty sweet. All the
Speaker 1: stuff there has like no idea what we are, and
Speaker 1: you just kind of walk up and kill it. And
Speaker 1: the next day you're like, let's go over to the
Speaker 1: next valley, no concept of that you're heading anywhere. And
Speaker 1: it was a huge land.
Speaker 4: Mass six hundred miles wide, which is as Montana.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so be that that you would have people who
Speaker 1: were born, You would have had people born and died
Speaker 1: on this chunk of ground that's underwater now in the
Speaker 1: shallow sea. So if you have a domestication event in Siberia.
Speaker 1: By the time people get to what is now Alaska, Yep,
Speaker 1: are their dogs still are? Are Are there dogs still
Speaker 1: making love to the new wolves they're finding in Alaska? Like?
Speaker 1: How are you not constantly updating what the hell of
Speaker 1: dog is by every every like genotype of every genotype
Speaker 1: of this almost like pan.
Speaker 2: Global wolf you are.
Speaker 6: So we like to say domestication is process, not an event,
Speaker 6: because domestication also starts, stops, has dead ends, maybe started
Speaker 6: up in other places and then petered out. No, it's
Speaker 6: not working. Taming these wolves not working out for us,
Speaker 6: and then that that kind of lineage of tamed wolves
Speaker 6: semi possibly domesticated dogs kind of you know Peter's off,
Speaker 6: these are the ones that worked.
Speaker 1: So when you let's let's say you get to the
Speaker 1: point where we'll just do there's two So there's two
Speaker 1: things I'd like you to get into to help try
Speaker 1: to explain. Eventually you have across north So so you
Speaker 1: have the first Americans come in and they very quickly
Speaker 1: just explode southward. And then later you have this wave
Speaker 1: of people who were possibly more Japanese illusion and they
Speaker 1: exploited like marine resources and had composite toolkits for harvesting
Speaker 1: whales and shit, and they come across the north of
Speaker 1: Alaska very different, like very different people had dogs. And
Speaker 1: then so you get to where Stephenson in the early
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds is going in like Coronation golf, and he's
Speaker 1: finding people with dogs who have had not had interactions
Speaker 1: with Europeans. A century earlier, you have Lewis and Clark
Speaker 1: come onto the Great Plains and they're finding nomadic bison
Speaker 1: hunters with huge packs of dogs which they're using eating.
Speaker 1: These things look nothing alike. Yep, how is all that happening?
Speaker 1: I mean, because they're not buying dogs from they're not
Speaker 1: buying dogs from Europe.
Speaker 6: No where dogs go, people go, So anywhere people went
Speaker 6: in America's dogs are going right. And eventually, just like humans,
Speaker 6: these groups of dogs breed only with each other, and
Speaker 6: eventually you get independent lineages of dogs that are very different.
Speaker 6: You know, a dog that you're using as a water
Speaker 6: dog ends up looking very different than a dog you're
Speaker 6: using to hunt bison, and looks very different than a
Speaker 6: dog that you're using to hunt white tail deer and
Speaker 6: bore looks very different from a dog that's a sled
Speaker 6: dog that's pulling you across the Canadian Arctic, and so
Speaker 6: these things can happen fairly rapidly. You're just saying, like,
Speaker 6: you know, you want a dog that is good at
Speaker 6: being in the water and has a better coat, and
Speaker 6: blah blah blah. You just just make it. Just kick
Speaker 6: out the ones you don't want out of that line,
Speaker 6: and you know you get one that has a really
Speaker 6: good coat that you like, you breed that one, and eventually,
Speaker 6: you know, you get a dog that does what you
Speaker 6: want it to do, is.
Speaker 7: Bringing for characteristics, right, characteristics in traits.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, so you know up north they need dogs
Speaker 6: that are pulling sleds and have a certain physiology and
Speaker 6: have certain types of foot pads that are good for
Speaker 6: pulling and certain types of oxygen intake at higher altitudes,
Speaker 6: and that's what they breed for. And like the first
Speaker 6: i mean the first population of dogs, that initial population
Speaker 6: of wolves, if they kind of self domesticated, right, that
Speaker 6: population naturally gets cold down, right, Say one of those
Speaker 6: wolves decides like, you know what, I'm gonna wander into
Speaker 6: that village today and I'm gonna take a little snap.
Speaker 6: But a toddler that wolf, it is not in that
Speaker 6: population for very long, right, humans make sure like nope, cold,
Speaker 6: all right, that guy and his bad attitude are gone
Speaker 6: no longer in that population. And it's the same thing
Speaker 6: for dogs across the early Americas. You know, this dog sucks,
Speaker 6: it doesn't hunt, it's not doing what we want done.
Speaker 6: Out of the population, right, has nice fur though, could
Speaker 6: you use that?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 6: So, so you have these dogs being cold and cold
Speaker 6: and cold and cold. We're working on a paper now,
Speaker 6: cold cold cold, cold, cold cold.
Speaker 1: Pin which you know Danny. We're just up at the
Speaker 1: fish shack and Danny was telling me he saw or
Speaker 1: someone was selling firewood in Alaska. I can't he what
Speaker 1: part where he was, but someone was selling firewood and
Speaker 1: kindling were they just cut to it. It's spelled k
Speaker 1: I n l I n kim, which says killing. They're
Speaker 1: just like, I'm like, you know what, I'm not getting
Speaker 1: the d involved anymore. D's out Kinlin. That's South Alaska.
Speaker 1: G Yeah, he says it's k I N l I N.
Speaker 1: He knew exactly what they were talking about. Saved on
Speaker 1: paint on the sign anyways, go ahead, yeah, so.
Speaker 6: Cold cold cold, Yeah, I mean, you know.
Speaker 7: I mean, I honestly think somebody should explain cold because
Speaker 7: I bet you a lot of people don't really know.
Speaker 6: Go ahead, are you volunteering, Well, tell us you're the archaeologist.
Speaker 7: But I know more about culling. Probably it's the process
Speaker 7: of taking something that's not desirable and killing it as
Speaker 7: it and usually in its infant stage. You don't usually
Speaker 7: wait till they're find out if they're two years old
Speaker 7: and they're practical to use. That process has been done
Speaker 7: with domestic dogs for years because you could see if
Speaker 7: you're looking for a standard size or a standard coat,
Speaker 7: and you'll see puppy differences and be like, oh wow,
Speaker 7: that one's tiny.
Speaker 1: You know that just because it's a resource thing, right,
Speaker 1: It's like.
Speaker 7: We're only going to have the feet eight of them
Speaker 7: if everything works out right. And that one that's really big.
Speaker 7: That reminds me of the dog that the neighbor had
Speaker 7: from twenty years ago, the one that was killing things.
Speaker 7: Big ones out. So they try to keep it to
Speaker 7: a standard basically, And I'm sure they did that back
Speaker 7: in the day. You know, they they could tell. And
Speaker 7: the neat thing about those people are they would have
Speaker 7: kept those dogs around to observe them as they're growing up,
Speaker 7: because dogs are like kids, but they grow up in
Speaker 7: twelve months kind of. So you might see that behavior
Speaker 7: of a really aggressive one it's six months and they
Speaker 7: would probably still call it there because they still want
Speaker 7: the milder temperament dog, you know. They so yeah, but
Speaker 7: I just didn't I know you were saying that, and
Speaker 7: I wanted people to like, we're talking about yeah, selective breeding.
Speaker 7: It's a selective killing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 1: In France's Apartment's the Oregon Trail. So there's a historian
Speaker 1: named France's Apartment and he wrote one of the He
Speaker 1: wrote what would become one of the early definitive histories
Speaker 1: of the French and Indian War. He had, you know,
Speaker 1: what was the disease that you send everybody out west?
Speaker 1: The doctors has head like go to an arid climate,
Speaker 1: go to an arid climate, TV something like that. So
Speaker 1: he went out and I think it was an eighteen
Speaker 1: thirty four France's Apartment, went out onto the Great Plains
Speaker 1: and then later wrote a book called The Oregon Trail.
Speaker 1: They think that he was he was probably so he
Speaker 1: spent a bunch of time with you, Aglala Sue was
Speaker 1: probably in Crazy Horses camp when Crazy Horse was thirteen
Speaker 1: years old. He one day goes into I think he
Speaker 1: goes into a trading post and Laramie, wy what's now Laramie, Wyoming.
Speaker 1: I think he was in Laramie and he's invited to
Speaker 1: dinner in a Sioue Famili's So in Aglala Sue family's tepee,
Speaker 1: he's invited to dinner. All their puppies are in the teepee. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you've hit a level of familiarity and care where
Speaker 1: the female dog is nursing her puppies inside.
Speaker 7: Like the first house dog.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which, like so it paints a picture, right, I
Speaker 1: mean you have it's like it's it's not a huge space,
Speaker 1: but you're giving that space as litter of puppies, which
Speaker 1: demonstrates this level of familiarity and care. But here's Francis Parton.
Speaker 1: He's a he's a guest. A woman goes over sorts
Speaker 1: through that little collection of puppies that is inside the teepee,
Speaker 1: thumps one in the head and cooks it for him.
Speaker 1: So it's like this real you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's like this real collision of two.
Speaker 1: It's a collision of two attitudes about dogs. It's really interesting. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: they're inside, right, We're gonna take care of them and
Speaker 1: make sure that whatever nothing kills all the puppies. But
Speaker 1: but I mean, come on, dog is good. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean yeah, So like these, you know, you get these
Speaker 1: glimpses into these very complicated these these like complicated contradictory relationships. Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, some of the sites that I was working
Speaker 6: on for my when I was writing my dissertation were
Speaker 6: super interesting because you have clearly hunting camps together, sites
Speaker 6: where you have elaborate burials of dogs which must be
Speaker 6: hunting dogs, are bearing them with hunting implements and red
Speaker 6: deer antlers and very elaborate points and things like that,
Speaker 6: and with covered with red ochre and really in these
Speaker 6: like very elaborate burials, it looks just like a human burial.
Speaker 6: By the next door, you got a bunch of butcher
Speaker 6: dogs that they've clearly been eating in the trash pile.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 6: So there you clearly have these like camp, same camp,
Speaker 6: same camp. So you have dogs that are you know,
Speaker 6: and we probably have that a version of that, we're
Speaker 6: not butchering them and throwing them a trash pile. But
Speaker 6: we have versions of this right where we have you know,
Speaker 6: if you're a hunter and you have hunting dogs, and
Speaker 6: you've got that like prized hunting dogs, and then you
Speaker 6: got the kind of you know, someone was telling me
Speaker 6: in a bar yesterday at Ted's we had this German
Speaker 6: shorthaird pointer like great hopes for it scared scared of guns.
Speaker 6: Now it's a couch potato, right, it's not. But then
Speaker 6: they have another dog that's just like an amazing hunting dog.
Speaker 6: So you know, you get this these levels also of
Speaker 6: you know where that dog falls in the pack, and
Speaker 6: we think, you know, as an archaeologist, I think about
Speaker 6: humans as another animal on the landscape. We're just another
Speaker 6: animal the landscape, and a dog is our greatest technology.
Speaker 6: If you're a hunter gather and you're using dogs for hunting,
Speaker 6: and in many ways, if you're a hunter gather, you know,
Speaker 6: ten thousand years ago, a dog is much more valuable
Speaker 6: to you than another human hunter. Right, So when I
Speaker 6: was hunting boar in Japan, we would enter these dense,
Speaker 6: dense forests. No way we're going to track a boar,
Speaker 6: but the dogs.
Speaker 1: Right when you're talking about you. Yeah, okay, so tell
Speaker 1: me about this now.
Speaker 6: So part of my PhD where I was in Japan
Speaker 6: working with hunters and hunters in Japan trying to see
Speaker 6: how they use their dogs to bar there in some
Speaker 6: of these really really dense forests. You know, you can't
Speaker 6: see two feet in front of you because the forests
Speaker 6: are so dense, And the rise of hunting dogs in
Speaker 6: our kind of archaeological pass is most likely tied to
Speaker 6: the beginning of the Holocene period somewhere between ten and
Speaker 6: twelve thousand years ago, when we kind of move out
Speaker 6: of this time of having more open forests and polar
Speaker 6: tundras and the deciduous forests start coming into the northern latitudes,
Speaker 6: and forests start getting really really dense, and the animals
Speaker 6: move from these huge megafauna you know, mammoth and masdons
Speaker 6: that we see out on an open plane, to like
Speaker 6: super fast white tailed deer and boor who a moving
Speaker 6: through a dark dense forest?
Speaker 7: Right, got it?
Speaker 6: We're humans. We're not usually tracking a white tailed deer
Speaker 6: through a dark dense forest.
Speaker 1: Can I throw something into that?
Speaker 6: You tell me?
Speaker 1: I think that you're also starting to see that they've
Speaker 1: had that your people are living in encountering animals that
Speaker 1: have had more experience with humans, right, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I've brought this up before, but there was a time
Speaker 1: when there was the first person. I don't know who
Speaker 1: he was, I'd love to meet him. There was the
Speaker 1: first person that ever saw a rattlesnake, and that person
Speaker 1: had lived hundreds of generations in the absence of venomous
Speaker 1: snakes yep. Or there was the first man. There was
Speaker 1: the first person that ever walked up to a mastadon,
Speaker 1: and the masdon maybe just stood there. Yeah, because aland
Speaker 1: doesn't seem that big. What's it doing? Right? And then
Speaker 1: after a while you get where stuff has kind of
Speaker 1: a has a different attitude, and you might be looking
Speaker 1: for new ways of dealing with these new attitudes. Ye,
Speaker 1: but we're anywhere they catch a smell on the wind
Speaker 1: and they're gone, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: But we're also dealing with that.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 6: So, generations before you were Macedon hunters on open planes.
Speaker 6: Every technology you built was for that. Everything you've taught
Speaker 6: generations after you is for how you go hunt a
Speaker 6: macedon on an open plane. Now you have dense forests
Speaker 6: coming in quickly, pray species are changing. They're becoming these
Speaker 6: kind of mezso prey species, smaller, medium sized prices. Is
Speaker 6: very very quick and moving through a dense forest. That
Speaker 6: takes a different type of hunting, different types of tools,
Speaker 6: different types of technology. Dogs are really good at that.
Speaker 1: I had no idea they hunted boars with dogs in Japan. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so what happened when you went? How did it go?
Speaker 6: I mean the dogs? The dogs do most of it, right, Yeah,
Speaker 6: I mean so it was interesting. I love debates about
Speaker 6: about hunting with dogs, modern hunting with dogs, because when
Speaker 6: I talk to hunters who don't use dogs, not for
Speaker 6: like birding or something like that, but hunting deer, boar
Speaker 6: or something like that, they say, there's no sport to
Speaker 6: it hunting with dogs. Sheeting, right, it's too easy. It's
Speaker 6: too easy. If your hunter gather ten thousand years ago.
Speaker 6: It's exactly what you want you want it to be.
Speaker 6: It's not a sport subsistence hunting, you know.
Speaker 1: But even out, I mean, this is a subject for
Speaker 1: a different thing.
Speaker 7: I would love.
Speaker 1: I would love the debate with one of these people.
Speaker 1: How it's not easy, because the thing I always like
Speaker 1: to bring out to people is if you could measure
Speaker 1: hunting knowledge and like bits the way you might measure
Speaker 1: information in your computer in a drive to successfully use dogs,
Speaker 1: meaning selecting, breeding, caring for training, someone who can effectively
Speaker 1: use a dog to get a big game animal. It
Speaker 1: holds more bits of holds vastly more bits of information
Speaker 1: in their head than is required to shoot a deer
Speaker 1: coming into an egg field. It's just like you might
Speaker 1: find one to be more fun or less fun. But
Speaker 1: don't get into me this idea that it's easier or
Speaker 1: cheating to pull that off, because that's not easy to
Speaker 1: pull off. That takes lifetimes of dedication. You might like,
Speaker 1: you might have other problems with it, but the easy
Speaker 1: thing come on. So it's is not true.
Speaker 6: I debate this a lot with a colleague of mine,
Speaker 6: Jeremy Coster. He's a professor at Cincinnati and he works
Speaker 6: with indigenous mosquito on my Younga people hunting in Nicaragua
Speaker 6: and Jeremy Coster mosquito in Myyungna. So in Nicaragua where
Speaker 6: they're they're horticulturalists, but they still the primary meat is
Speaker 6: coming from subsistence hunting in these like neotropical forests, pretty
Speaker 6: pretty dense kind of tropical forests, and so we debate
Speaker 6: a lot about they use hunting dogs there. Their dogs
Speaker 6: are not really trained. It's they come out one they
Speaker 6: might get killed by a jaguar. Some ways, that's good
Speaker 6: for you because it's killing your dog is not killing you,
Speaker 6: so that's all right. But a lot of them get
Speaker 6: lost to jaguars or snake bites. A lot of them
Speaker 6: are just clearly not up for it. But then you
Speaker 6: get some small population of dogs who are really good
Speaker 6: at it and then teach other dogs. But there he
Speaker 6: he does a lot of calculations of tracking, cost benefit
Speaker 6: analyzes of using dogs and return rates using dogs versus
Speaker 6: not using dogs. The issue there is he's got a
Speaker 6: dense forest and he's got probably twenty or thirty animals
Speaker 6: in that forest that that dog could go after. And
Speaker 6: you don't know when your dog goes off and it's
Speaker 6: barking and it's gone, if it's going after a forest
Speaker 6: rat or a brocket deer. And you have to debate
Speaker 6: whether the time lost in tracking down your dog for
Speaker 6: four hours if it caught a rat, is worth it,
Speaker 6: right or does it have a deer And you don't
Speaker 6: know right, so you can lose a lot of time
Speaker 6: and an environment like that. If you're a hunter gather
Speaker 6: in a forest in northern US or Germany or the UK,
Speaker 6: your idea of what your dog is going after is
Speaker 6: a much smaller breadth of praise species. Right, So you
Speaker 6: could have thirty things, of which twenty five you don't
Speaker 6: care about, or you could have a force in which
Speaker 6: if your dog's going after something, it's probably something you
Speaker 6: want to kill an eat.
Speaker 1: Right, John, he's got it narrow down to one thing.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm trying to truest to chase mountain lions and bobcats, raccoons.
Speaker 1: All three things. Never mind, he's got narrowed down three things.
Speaker 3: But there has been a lot of narrowing down, you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of teaching him what not to chase.
Speaker 6: Right, And how much time does that take? Kind of
Speaker 6: effort does it take.
Speaker 3: We're not done. We're three years in roughly. Yeah, lots
Speaker 3: of time.
Speaker 6: This is the debate of like, as an ancient hunter gatherer,
Speaker 6: spending three years training a dog. Probably not. It's probably
Speaker 6: a game of nope, nope, nope, Oh, this one's all right,
Speaker 6: all right.
Speaker 1: He gets the red ocre the red, Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 6: So you know, this is the this is the bait
Speaker 6: we have. Do we breed the good one with another
Speaker 6: good one from the village next door, produce some good pups.
Speaker 6: Then you go from there. That litter produces eight pups.
Speaker 6: Of those eight pups, six of them duds, two of them.
Speaker 1: All right, I need to I want to just really
Speaker 1: quickly get back to this Japanese thing. How many how
Speaker 1: many bores did you guys get?
Speaker 6: We got? Well we went out for weeks, so.
Speaker 1: Oh so you're really putting some time into it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're tracking. We had GPS callers on the dogs
Speaker 6: trying to track, like where they went, how long it
Speaker 6: took them.
Speaker 1: They have chase dogs and catch dogs.
Speaker 6: The chase dogs were the catch dogs there.
Speaker 1: So they track it and hold it down.
Speaker 6: Yeah, track and hold. They have the full vests and everything.
Speaker 6: Though those boar aren't messing around.
Speaker 1: So then they come in and kill with a knife.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean so basically this is what we did. We
Speaker 6: get to the edge of the forest, right, super dense,
Speaker 6: and I'm thinking, how we look for the tree that
Speaker 6: has you know, the rubbing on it, Like, okay, there
Speaker 6: there's somewhere. Dogs sniffs the tree looks at us. All right,
Speaker 6: we'll go he's got the scent. There they go, tracking
Speaker 6: them on GPS callers, where are they going? You can
Speaker 6: hear them, they're they're barking to each other, tracking each
Speaker 6: other where they're going. You can you can hear them
Speaker 6: going up the mountain. You can kind of hear where
Speaker 6: where the barks are coming. And you can hear when
Speaker 6: they get the scent that they're close, because then they're barking.
Speaker 6: Really you know, it's increasing. And then you can tell
Speaker 6: when they got them. You know they're doing that that.
Speaker 8: Go go.
Speaker 6: And then you're just like, all right, here's where the
Speaker 6: humans step in and we do the real hard work,
Speaker 6: right we so we track them down and then kill them. Right,
Speaker 6: But this is an interest.
Speaker 1: So did you take a real like into that or
Speaker 1: was just work for you?
Speaker 6: I mean, it's it's fun, right, It's interesting to see
Speaker 6: the process. I'm an oargist. I see the dead animals
Speaker 6: on the ground, right, I need to know how does
Speaker 6: this work in reality? How you know? What are I
Speaker 6: try to think through? How what are the places that
Speaker 6: things go wrong? Where does the path split in a hunt?
Speaker 6: Where a choice could go this way or this way?
Speaker 6: You know, a lot of people in archaeology talk about
Speaker 6: hunter choice, hunter prey choice, and what we decide to do,
Speaker 6: what we decided not to do. But when I've been
Speaker 6: hunting with dogs, we're not the ones who decide what
Speaker 6: animal you go after. We're the ones to decide if
Speaker 6: you kill it or not, but we're not the ones
Speaker 6: deciding on animal you go after. So when we talk
Speaker 6: about you know, humans in the past ten thousand years
Speaker 6: ago always killed males or females, or ones this size
Speaker 6: or ones over here. A lot of that if you're
Speaker 6: using a dog to hunt, was decided by the dog.
Speaker 6: We decide whether you kill it or not, but prey
Speaker 6: choice is largely decided by what animal the dog goes after.
Speaker 6: And so you know, we they're lily going after females
Speaker 6: with young, regularly going after males that are running or
Speaker 6: on their own, sick, old, injured. You know, these are
Speaker 6: the animals that that dogs are going after, over and
Speaker 6: over and over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. You might find tune it.
Speaker 1: You might find tune it on species, but it's pretty
Speaker 1: hard to find tune it on. Go get me a big.
Speaker 4: Male, Yeah, go get the big one.
Speaker 3: Go ahead.
Speaker 4: Have you ever found any crossover of ancient cultures that
Speaker 4: used falcons and dogs.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I worked in Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan, they're using
Speaker 6: birds of prey, dogs and horses. It's a three prong approach, right.
Speaker 2: And how old do you think that? Like three prong approach.
Speaker 6: Is pretty old? I mean horse domestication. Trying to track
Speaker 6: down right now, exactly when horse domestication happened in Central
Speaker 6: Asia somewhere most likely, but yeah, thousands and thousands of
Speaker 6: years ago. So it was interesting in Kazakhstan. Problem for
Speaker 6: me is an archaeologist to use his ancient DNA.
Speaker 9: You know.
Speaker 6: When I was in Kazakhstan, I would talk to the
Speaker 6: local people who are still hunting with falcons and horses
Speaker 6: and dogs. And I was in a tiny, tiny little
Speaker 6: museum in the middle of nowhere, and I saw this
Speaker 6: picture of hunters and they had their horses, they had
Speaker 6: their falcons, and they had their dogs, and they had
Speaker 6: two wolf pups. So Kazakhstan has one of the largest
Speaker 6: wolf populations in the world. You don't really think about
Speaker 6: Kazakhstan being a place where tons of wolves. There they
Speaker 6: had these two live wolf pups and I was asking
Speaker 6: them the guy that we.
Speaker 1: Were with, and then the painting, the wolf puffs looked
Speaker 1: different than the dogs.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're clearly wolf. I mean it's a photo. It
Speaker 6: was a it was a black white photo. So they
Speaker 6: had these two live wolf pups that they'd tracked. They'd
Speaker 6: been on horses with their falcons and their dogs and
Speaker 6: they'd tracked these two wolf puffs and they caught them live, right,
Speaker 6: And so I said to them what are they why?
Speaker 1: Why?
Speaker 6: At first, well, why are they going after wolves? And
Speaker 6: what are they going to do with them live? I said, Oh,
Speaker 6: they'll breed them to their dogs.
Speaker 1: Oh, put a little extra pap in them.
Speaker 6: And I was like, I was like, what are they
Speaker 6: tell me more? And I said, well, you breed your
Speaker 6: dogs with wolves to fight off the wolves. You know,
Speaker 6: I'm an archaeologist though, and I'm thinking, you know, we
Speaker 6: study ancient DNA try to figure out, you know, the
Speaker 6: genetics of dogs, and I'm.
Speaker 1: Thinking, what night, Yeah, like the fag that is still happening.
Speaker 6: Right, No, it's still happening. It's happening all the time.
Speaker 1: They're creating all kinds of noise.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, they're introducing like local wolf genetics into dogs
Speaker 6: and this happens. Ever, happens all over the place. Right.
Speaker 6: So there's a dog breed call a sar loose that
Speaker 6: genetically looks like an ancient dog. I love talking about
Speaker 6: people about ancient breeds, ancient dogs and why they look ancient.
Speaker 6: And this looks like an ancient dog, but it's not.
Speaker 6: It's a recent breed about fifty years old. That they
Speaker 6: just took a wolf in a zoo in Germany and
Speaker 6: bred it with German shepherds something like that and created
Speaker 6: this sar loose. Probably you look.
Speaker 1: At it, and you're looking at I think even genetically.
Speaker 6: Genetically because it's genetics. Are a wolf wolf genetics?
Speaker 1: Right? And so it turned up that bone and a
Speaker 1: hole in the ground, It would have threw you off.
Speaker 6: Bad news, badness, right, So you might get a dog
Speaker 6: that looks ancient. Oh man, this is ancient.
Speaker 3: When you say it looks ancient, you're talking about what
Speaker 3: you see in the DNA.
Speaker 6: Like genetically, but also morphologically, I mean, because a dog
Speaker 6: that has recent ancestry of a wolf is gonna morphologically
Speaker 6: look probably a lot like a wolf. But you know,
Speaker 6: we we think what happened with dogs and the reason
Speaker 6: why no one can sort out your question of like why, when, how,
Speaker 6: where when did this all happen? It's probably because dogs,
Speaker 6: if they're domesticated in somewhere like Siberia, they're coming back down.
Speaker 6: They're coming back down with human populations into Eurasia via
Speaker 6: different right. And of course as they're coming down, they're
Speaker 6: interbreeding with Asian wolves and European wolves and wolves in Germany,
Speaker 6: wolves everywhere, right, And so then they end up looking
Speaker 6: all of them end up looking ancient, but with independent
Speaker 6: local wolf populations being kind of blended in there. And
Speaker 6: so for us genetically and morphologically, it's a nightmare because
Speaker 6: they all look old because they've got these local wolf
Speaker 6: populations being bred into them, these local ancient, local, ancient, local, modern, local,
Speaker 6: historic like wolves and dogs. If you leave a dog out,
Speaker 6: they're gonna hang out with wolves, right, they'll either be
Speaker 6: killed or they'll hang out with wolves. And I mean,
Speaker 6: canids love to interbreed, love to interbreed with each other.
Speaker 6: We had some from a site in Illinois that's one
Speaker 6: of the used to be the oldest dogs in the Americas,
Speaker 6: and we had two sites right next to each other,
Speaker 6: overlapped in time. But the dogs look very different. Morphologed.
Speaker 6: We had these one dogs that the one site had
Speaker 6: these really robust dogs, and then the site twenty kilometers
Speaker 6: away the dogs are much more like grass aisles, so
Speaker 6: kind of thinner, more thin bone dogs. And we were like,
Speaker 6: this is the same time period. They're twenty kilometers away
Speaker 6: from each other. That's strange that they would have that
Speaker 6: much variation. We did the genetics of the kind of
Speaker 6: grass style thin dogs and they were Koi dogs, but
Speaker 6: they were buried. They were buried. They're in burials with
Speaker 6: grave goods, but they had very recent coyote ancestry.
Speaker 1: And they were some fashion esteemed or cherished because they
Speaker 1: had a proper burial.
Speaker 6: They had proper burials, are probably being used for hunting.
Speaker 6: But like, I don't know much about what a koid
Speaker 6: how you live with the koi dog, but maybe you
Speaker 6: guys you know about koy dogs.
Speaker 1: I kid yesterday and he was telling me all about
Speaker 1: what you need to do if you want to have
Speaker 1: a pet coyote.
Speaker 6: Okay, right, exactly.
Speaker 1: So, which presumably he learned on YouTube.
Speaker 3: Catch a Crayfish.
Speaker 1: Tell me like all the ins and outs of having
Speaker 1: pet kyotes, And I was just kind of have listened
Speaker 1: to what he was telling.
Speaker 7: Me, I gotta throw something in so Yanna. You might
Speaker 7: be familiar with the name Delmar Smith with dog training,
Speaker 7: maybe Brent. He's he's from Oklahoma, probably one of the
Speaker 7: most famous dog trainers horse person that you've ever met.
Speaker 7: And he had kyote pups around the farm when he
Speaker 7: was a kid. And I did an interview with him,
Speaker 7: I don't know, six seven years ago, and he just
Speaker 7: looks at me. He said, wrong, I can take kyle
Speaker 7: pup and teach him what your pointer knows. It's on audio.
Speaker 7: So I didn't know about that they could breathe with them,
Speaker 7: but I do know that they could be trained up
Speaker 7: pretty good.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: There you go.
Speaker 3: Before we move on, though, I it's one more question
Speaker 3: about Japan. What were those dogs like like will be
Speaker 3: to be similar to breedwise, so they were all.
Speaker 6: Over the place. So we had some hardcore guys that
Speaker 6: had shiba you been you like local Japanese hunting dogs
Speaker 6: dog yaba in you So they got the little curly tail,
Speaker 6: they have a fox like kind of face dog. So
Speaker 6: Japan's interesting because they got all sorts of really interesting
Speaker 6: specialized dogs.
Speaker 2: Can I I have a trivia question planned for Angela
Speaker 2: coming up.
Speaker 1: I got a bone to pick with you.
Speaker 2: Okay, say too much?
Speaker 4: Can she talk about this when we get on the
Speaker 4: trivia show.
Speaker 1: She's already given the answer to the bone.
Speaker 4: Not not yet. But I'm worried. I'm worried she's approaching
Speaker 4: that territory. So I think we should just leave it
Speaker 4: until trivia.
Speaker 1: Should I pick my bone with yeah?
Speaker 3: Now or later, Tavia, if it's a trivia bone.
Speaker 1: Trivia bone, okay. Oh you know what I did that? Uh,
Speaker 1: when we had that tent, say, on the parking lot,
Speaker 1: I met this family. Memerel's gonna tell you the story.
Speaker 1: I sent you that picture, that little mountain man trophy,
Speaker 1: and I said, I'll tell you later. I never told you.
Speaker 1: So there's this family and they do They've made their
Speaker 1: own trivia tournament out of your trivia show.
Speaker 2: I'm worried about what you may have done, but carry on.
Speaker 7: Well.
Speaker 1: I ran up in the office and game one of
Speaker 1: the trivia game.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a prototype that was not ready for the market.
Speaker 4: But that's okay. Now one's just out there in the world.
Speaker 1: I said, listen, I'm gonna give this to you. Don't
Speaker 1: show anybody, especially anybody that works here. Uh huh oh, no,
Speaker 1: like five people came up to me. You gave that
Speaker 1: guy that trivia?
Speaker 2: I'd heard from five people.
Speaker 1: I told him very clearly, put in your bag. You
Speaker 1: don't show anybody.
Speaker 4: Yes, and I had heard from five people that some
Speaker 4: family was walking around on the board game. I was like, well,
Speaker 4: that's not possible.
Speaker 1: I show he went on to show everybody. I said
Speaker 1: that the show perfect.
Speaker 2: I'll pick my bone and she will talk about her Japanese.
Speaker 1: He's gonna continue his line. Question yep.
Speaker 6: To answer your question, there are some local dogs and
Speaker 6: some European like bloodhound type dogs. So that's a Mexico.
Speaker 2: That's all she can say for now.
Speaker 1: Oh, because it's right, because the bone, the.
Speaker 2: She may just give it away to everyone in the room.
Speaker 2: It would be at your advantage to just wait about
Speaker 2: an hour.
Speaker 8: Got it.
Speaker 1: There's a Scottish woman that has an album called Bones.
Speaker 1: You have thrown me in blood I have spilled, which
Speaker 1: we should work into the show. Okay, here here can
Speaker 1: we switch the wolves from it? But I know, so
Speaker 1: you're ancient dog, but that means categorically that you're interested
Speaker 1: in wolves. What is the term trying to get how
Speaker 1: to set this up when we now look at the
Speaker 1: wolf landscape. Okay, we talked about what we have, the
Speaker 1: Mexican gray wolf, right, and then that wolf ends at
Speaker 1: what highway?
Speaker 7: Is it?
Speaker 1: There's a highway that it ends at. It'd be like
Speaker 1: if a mule deer crosses, if a meal deer crosses
Speaker 1: the I five quarter or he becomes a Columbia blacktail
Speaker 1: in certain places, so he can go back and forth
Speaker 1: all day long. And there's if Ossiola turkey walks across
Speaker 1: a certain road, he becomes an eastern turkey. Right, And
Speaker 1: we have these little divisions, but this one actually has
Speaker 1: teeth because from a legal perspective in terms of how
Speaker 1: it's manageding like experimental species and danger species. There's a line,
Speaker 1: there's a highway. There was an eye forty. I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's there's a highway at which a Mexican gray wolf
Speaker 1: ceases to be a Mexican gray wolf across to some highway.
Speaker 1: It's been pointed out to me, and I can't remember
Speaker 1: the word they use. That all this is nonsense that
Speaker 1: you had like that, Yes, there were wolves in Mexico,
Speaker 1: but as you road north, you never left wolfland. It's
Speaker 1: just you would gradually see different morphological types. Meaning in
Speaker 1: the desert southwest there's wolves running around slightly different college
Speaker 1: generally smaller. You'd go north and they might get bigger
Speaker 1: and grayer, and you'd go north yet and they get
Speaker 1: bigger still. And then you go north yet and they
Speaker 1: might get smaller and wider, and then you roll into
Speaker 1: you'd like roll into Siberia and it's like a little
Speaker 1: bit different yet, but you never you never crossed the
Speaker 1: line at which they're not interacting and what's the word
Speaker 1: I'm looking for.
Speaker 6: I don't know where you're looking for.
Speaker 1: But they were a continuous blank. Yeah, they were.
Speaker 7: Like you think, like a monoculture of a Yeah, it
Speaker 7: was like that.
Speaker 1: All you could later go in and make like these
Speaker 1: distinctions and these arbitrary lines at which they changed, but
Speaker 1: they were just all there, all interacting, all breeding, and
Speaker 1: you would just see different demonstrations different like pheno.
Speaker 6: Tisenotypes or morphotypes. So you would not have ever gone
Speaker 6: anywhere and not seen wolves. If you're an ancient hunter gather,
Speaker 6: there would have been wolves everywhere, I think, and all
Speaker 6: these wolves can interbreed with each other. They're all canis
Speaker 6: sloopis of some of some description they had. Uh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: I mean, well, if you took a wolf from North
Speaker 6: America and you moved it to Eurasia, maybe they're all
Speaker 6: Canus loopists. They could interbreed, and the wolves that are
Speaker 6: here now came from You know, when you say why
Speaker 6: people were living and dying on Burringia, that's true. Why
Speaker 6: did they make it that way? Well you have animals,
Speaker 6: tons of animals moving into the Americas, So you have
Speaker 6: a concert migration of animals moving through Bringian land Bridge.
Speaker 6: So probably people are following animals. You know, people didn't
Speaker 6: just wake up one day and say like go east, right,
Speaker 6: They're probably following herds of animals, both predators and prey
Speaker 6: that are moving you know, their way into there, including wolves.
Speaker 1: Well you know who's brand new that I didn't know.
Speaker 6: This, elk Yeah, yeah, yeah, ELK.
Speaker 1: Like there could have been p people. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: what the latest is on this, but there could have
Speaker 1: been people that showed up here before elk.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so we think that wolves
Speaker 6: didn't actually make it here. Wolves and ky didn't actually
Speaker 6: make it here until fairly recently as well. So probably
Speaker 6: wolves came over in the same time humans were making
Speaker 6: their way over there, which is why dire wolves.
Speaker 1: Will get to dire So that was a wolf that
Speaker 1: was here before Canis lupus.
Speaker 6: So dire wolves were probably the ancestor of dire wolves.
Speaker 6: Probably came into the Americas over a million years ago.
Speaker 6: Probably dire wolves evolved in the Americas somewhere, and then
Speaker 6: we're here by themselves, the only wolf hanging out for
Speaker 6: a very long time until gray wolves and dogs eventually
Speaker 6: show up on the scene. But by then they they
Speaker 6: were so removed from each other evolutionarily, they would not
Speaker 6: have been able to so we have.
Speaker 1: So they weren't bred into they weren't bred into the
Speaker 1: gray wolf. No, they probably just blinked out. You think
Speaker 1: they blinked out because of being displaced by wolves and dogs,
Speaker 1: or you think they blinked out as part of the
Speaker 1: megafoneal extinctions, you know that took off the mammoths and macedons.
Speaker 6: It's probably a combination of both. The I mean, there
Speaker 6: are a lot of mega predators that were in the
Speaker 6: America's they're no longer here. You know, we had American lion,
Speaker 6: American cheetah, short face bear, all the shimtar cats like
Speaker 6: all sorts of predators that are no longer here because
Speaker 6: their prey went. Yeah, tons of weird praise species that
Speaker 6: you know, most people don't. There are camels in America,
Speaker 6: original horses, real horses. Before the arrival of European horses,
Speaker 6: we had horses here at camels, giant ground sloths, right Aglyptodon,
Speaker 6: which was like a ginormous armadillo. We had all sorts
Speaker 6: of things that were here, and when those things went
Speaker 6: with the climate, the predators that relied on them, you know,
Speaker 6: went as well. It didn't help, you know, humans would
Speaker 6: have seen dire wolves. By the time we got here,
Speaker 6: there would have still been dire wolves. We would have
Speaker 6: interacted with dire wolves. We would have seen them, but
Speaker 6: probably didn't help that we arrive with our dogs hunting everything.
Speaker 7: How big was a dire wolf like a dog species
Speaker 7: we'd recognize.
Speaker 6: So a dire wolf isn't as big as we you know, game.
Speaker 2: Style Game of Thrones to make some three four feet tall.
Speaker 6: No, I wish. No, the average direwolf is probably about
Speaker 6: the size of like a big Arctic timberwolf.
Speaker 7: Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you don't know this. I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: did you know that me and my wife's first date
Speaker 1: was at LaBrea tarpis.
Speaker 6: But you had I did not know that I'm here.
Speaker 1: Well, no, hear me out. So I have a very
Speaker 1: nice I don't mean a brag school display at my
Speaker 1: house built into my wall. My first date with my wife,
Speaker 1: who went to Librea tar pits, and they have the
Speaker 1: wall of dire wolf skulls, and I said at that time, somedow,
Speaker 1: I'll build one of those into my house. You did
Speaker 1: it and then married her and built the school. Stick
Speaker 1: to my word. Score.
Speaker 4: Yeah, can I tack onto this conversation? This this tattoo
Speaker 4: is the that is the cattle brand of the original
Speaker 4: owners of the Lebra guitar pit when I think it
Speaker 4: was called the Leroca Ranch because I also went there
Speaker 4: and I was so moved by like the dire wolf thing.
Speaker 2: That was like I want something associated with that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, Bray Tarpet's very cool. I mean they're very cool.
Speaker 6: I worked there several times, and one time when I
Speaker 6: was working there, I had this office that kind of
Speaker 6: looked out over the tar pits and I just watched.
Speaker 6: I was like one after the other animals, just adding
Speaker 6: adding to the.
Speaker 1: Birds.
Speaker 6: Birds mostly just landing and then just.
Speaker 1: Ah, you're seriously.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, the tar pets are still taking victims.
Speaker 1: But you know when it's crazy, that is, and I
Speaker 1: don't know how many hundred, one hundred and seventy five
Speaker 1: dire wolves have come out of there, well all that stuff,
Speaker 1: you think of it, it just be like a death like
Speaker 1: smell like death. But they're saying that as long as
Speaker 1: those pits have been going, I think it was that
Speaker 1: if you had an incident, meaning a baby, a baby
Speaker 1: mask mammoth gets stuck in the mud, a dire wolf
Speaker 1: goes out to scavenge on it, he gets stuck in
Speaker 1: the mud. A golden eagle lands on there, he gets
Speaker 1: stuck in the mud. As long as that are in
Speaker 1: the tar, as long as that happens every forty years,
Speaker 1: yeah you're fine. Yeah, Like that would account for the
Speaker 1: the bazillions of dead things collected in that tar. And
Speaker 1: they either still fishing.
Speaker 6: Never learn they never learned, It just kept going. I
Speaker 6: would just watch and yeah, we'll just land, and I thought.
Speaker 4: Humans must have learned. Now, there's been one human ever
Speaker 4: found there. It was like an eighteen to twenty year
Speaker 4: old woman.
Speaker 1: But she was thrown in she had a axe wound
Speaker 1: or yeah, I didn't know that she was thrown in
Speaker 1: there as a cover up.
Speaker 6: Whoa, yeah, there's a dog in there, a.
Speaker 2: Thousand year old crime.
Speaker 1: She had an axe. Yeah, she had been had a
Speaker 1: blown into the head with an axe and somebody said,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean to stick her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Humans love to throw like bog bodies. I just love
Speaker 6: to throw a dead body into into one of these things, bogs,
Speaker 6: tar pits.
Speaker 4: Swampsh'd be addicting throwing things in there.
Speaker 6: What happens?
Speaker 7: Wow?
Speaker 6: Yeah, still taking victims darts?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Old it?
Speaker 1: Did you just write that current eye forty?
Speaker 3: I did?
Speaker 1: I was right.
Speaker 2: I was waiting to get away.
Speaker 1: You should have celebrated my rightness.
Speaker 4: I was you know I was going to get there.
Speaker 4: I forty in Arizona, New Mexico is the northern boundary
Speaker 4: of the Mexican gray Wolves.
Speaker 1: I got two more dire wolf questions. All right, have
Speaker 1: you guys found where anybody was any butchered remains of
Speaker 1: dire wolves?
Speaker 6: We're not sure that's the answer. So we we don't
Speaker 6: have a lot of sights where we have overlap between
Speaker 6: dire wolves and humans. The few sites that we have
Speaker 6: are in New Mexico and Arizona where we have butchery
Speaker 6: sites where humans have butchered a mammoth and we also
Speaker 6: have remains of dire wolves got it, but no obvious interaction.
Speaker 1: Like no tools made from dire wolf.
Speaker 6: Bones or no, no, nothing very specific like that. We
Speaker 6: think probably humans caught the tail end. Around twelve to
Speaker 6: thirteen thousand years ago is the time when a lot
Speaker 6: of those mega predators and the Americas start to go
Speaker 6: short face bear, saybergoth, cats, dire wolves, they all start
Speaker 6: to go out. So there may have been like a
Speaker 6: kind of hold out group in the Southwest that kind
Speaker 6: of held on for some period of time and then
Speaker 6: kind of petered out. I think for our paper we
Speaker 6: got one of the kind of latest dates of dire
Speaker 6: wolves and it was like twelve seven hundred years ago,
Speaker 6: and that's probably towards the very end of the dire
Speaker 6: wolf population.
Speaker 1: And do you ever see are you ever running running
Speaker 1: genetic lines on anything living today or anything from okay,
Speaker 1: how to put this, So dire wolves twelve thousand years
Speaker 1: ago they were gone? Yeah, okay, do you ever see
Speaker 1: in anything living today or anything that died in the
Speaker 1: last ten thousand years? Where you're like, oh, somehow some
Speaker 1: dire wolves snuck in there. No it so it legit went,
Speaker 1: It's gone.
Speaker 6: So we checked everything we think as possible dogs, coyotes,
Speaker 6: gray wolves, nothing has any kind of dire wolf in it,
Speaker 6: and dire wolves, and so dire wolves and gray wolves
Speaker 6: have a common ancestor about five point eight million years ago,
Speaker 6: but after that they diverged. So what was interesting was
Speaker 6: that we always assumed that dire wolves were just gray wolves,
Speaker 6: like they look nearly identical in their morphology, and you know,
Speaker 6: the people tarpets are the experts and dire wolves and
Speaker 6: we just always they just look so similar. We figured
Speaker 6: that they're like a sister species or just very closely related.
Speaker 6: And so when we did, when we finally got DNA
Speaker 6: out of them, the reason it took so long was
Speaker 6: because the stuff at Libreas, where most of dire wolves
Speaker 6: are coming from, covered in tar, not a great place
Speaker 6: to find DNA. Tar destroys the DNA. So yeah, so
Speaker 6: can't can't get DNA out of those.
Speaker 1: So just can't, can't can't really any of that stuff.
Speaker 6: No, the tar just like destroys it. So I went
Speaker 6: on this like bonkers road trip where I just drove
Speaker 6: everywhere I could think of that might have dire wolf
Speaker 6: bones and collected.
Speaker 1: I'm just knocked on the door.
Speaker 6: A bunch of dire wolf samples, like Idaho Museum, Natural Street. Hey,
Speaker 6: you guys have dire wal I just went everywhere and
Speaker 6: tried to get as many as I could, and we
Speaker 6: managed to get five out of hundreds that we that
Speaker 6: we tested that we actually so we have two from
Speaker 6: American Falls, from Idaho, and then one from Ohio, one
Speaker 6: from Texas, I think, and another one from somewhere back east.
Speaker 6: So five rand ones, not Librea or anywhere famous that
Speaker 6: we know dire wolves from. And when we tested those,
Speaker 6: there's just no relationship at all. We found that they
Speaker 6: are more closely reated to like jackals than they are
Speaker 6: great wolves or dogs or kyotes or anything like that.
Speaker 6: They diverged so long ago, so their ancestor that was
Speaker 6: related to like a jackal, African jackal ancestor diverged, came
Speaker 6: over from Africa across Eurasia and into the Americas, right
Speaker 6: and that split happened five point eight million years ago,
Speaker 6: and so their relationship to wolves is not very close
Speaker 6: to the relationship. They just look like Wolves. It's like
Speaker 6: convergent evolution. They do the same things, they live in
Speaker 6: the same place, they eat the same thing. They kind
Speaker 6: of so they look the same.
Speaker 1: But yeah, uh, are you Fami with the Grateful Dead.
Speaker 6: I've become familiar with a lot of things that are
Speaker 6: tangential to dire Wolves.
Speaker 1: You know where I'm going.
Speaker 3: You know where I'm going with I do.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They have one good album, yeah, Reckoning.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's it.
Speaker 1: You think I don't care what Doug Darren plays in
Speaker 1: his car. They got one good album, Reckoning, which includes
Speaker 1: the song dire Wolf.
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 1: Should license that film. We could play it during the podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds good.
Speaker 6: When I talk about diar Wolves, a lot of things
Speaker 6: come up. Game of Thrones obviously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, traffic and that kind of stuff, any kind I
Speaker 1: don't like any kind of new stuff that people know about,
Speaker 1: because then it's just I'm always afraid my brain will
Speaker 1: become like their brain.
Speaker 6: We got to work backwards. Then you got Game of Thrones,
Speaker 6: and then you got D and D Dungeon Chaggins anyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll talk about that. Guys in high school, we're
Speaker 1: into that dire Wolves.
Speaker 6: There's like a Direwolf car dire wolves are part of that,
Speaker 6: and then you know grief. Those are kind of the
Speaker 6: touchstones of of diar Wals. Most people, though a lot
Speaker 6: of people had no idea dire wolf was a real animal.
Speaker 6: I thought it was a completely mythological like creature that
Speaker 6: was just made up for Game of Thrones or made
Speaker 6: up for dungeons and dragons, and I don't know it's
Speaker 6: real that it was a real animal. M Yeah, did
Speaker 6: you know? Did you all know that dire wolf was
Speaker 6: a real animal?
Speaker 1: Yeah, dude from my first day?
Speaker 7: Probably not in high school, I didn't, but yeah's.
Speaker 1: Who's the ass on your necklace? What's that my kid?
Speaker 1: What's your kid's name?
Speaker 7: Scot Oh, that's from the movie. Yeah, yeah, Mockingbird, Yellow Mockingbird.
Speaker 1: It's a novel.
Speaker 7: How many books do you knowed me to ready if
Speaker 7: I quote something?
Speaker 6: In high school? Yeah?
Speaker 1: You named? Are you familiar with the the somewhat misogynistic
Speaker 1: theory that Truman Capoti wrote that book?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 1: So yeah, I learned that in the movie Capoti.
Speaker 7: That in there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, supposedly the Dale character in the in the novel.
Speaker 1: Does have a big pre publication record, and then it
Speaker 1: kind of dropped off the Face of the Earth, and
Speaker 1: when they line out what her influences, it's like Courtney
Speaker 1: Love all that all that great music by whole was
Speaker 1: when she was hanging out with Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumkins.
Speaker 1: That's another misogynistic music theory. And then so it's like
Speaker 1: that that wasn't actually her, it was Billy Corgan. And
Speaker 1: then that that Truman Capodi wrote to Kill a Mockingbird.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that and published it under her name
Speaker 1: because then she never I guess she didn't like write
Speaker 1: anything after. I'm not telling you a theory that I think.
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you about the theory. It's like when
Speaker 1: I tell jokes you're not supposed to tell. Now I
Speaker 1: tell people about the joke. I don't tell the joke.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you should be aware there's a joke that
Speaker 1: goals like this.
Speaker 6: Should I rename my daughter now?
Speaker 1: No? No, it's after the movie.
Speaker 6: It's a movie too. It's a movie too.
Speaker 1: Spencer, what do you what are you Dealey dallying around here?
Speaker 1: You got another question?
Speaker 2: I was just making notes.
Speaker 3: We could hit on this. I feel like the rotten
Speaker 3: meat fermentation topics are interesting.
Speaker 1: You guys take.
Speaker 3: Well it was just in the notes about the consumption
Speaker 3: of rotten meat. You want to speak to that?
Speaker 6: Do you want to speak to that?
Speaker 3: I can't speak if you could. Yeah, was it was
Speaker 3: it the wolves or the humans that were doing that?
Speaker 6: So I think the idea behind this, this is still
Speaker 6: a kind of new idea that humans. You know, wolves
Speaker 6: do this. They cash somewhere, they kill something, they eat
Speaker 6: their fill, and then they'll they'll cash the meat in
Speaker 6: water or you know, on her snow or something like that,
Speaker 6: and come back to it, by which point it's you know,
Speaker 6: sometimes putrid, rotten, but fine, but fine for them. Right,
Speaker 6: So the ideas did Neanderthals or modern humans kind of
Speaker 6: pick up on this idea of if you put meat
Speaker 6: into an anaerobic environment, if you put it in the water,
Speaker 6: in a frozen link or something like that, and come
Speaker 6: back for it next season when you're low on meat,
Speaker 6: you know, is this something that you could kind of
Speaker 6: get away with. So I have a good friend Melanie,
Speaker 6: she worked at the body farm in Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Where they do all that that stuff for. Yeah, what's
Speaker 1: the word it combines like insects and.
Speaker 6: Crime, Yeah, forensic entomology, Yeah, yeah, studying like when does
Speaker 6: a blowfly hat on a dead body or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 6: so she was working there. She's a professor at Purdue now,
Speaker 6: but we were working on this idea of like we're
Speaker 6: trying to figure out why nitrogen values.
Speaker 1: That'd be if I was a producer, I'd be taking
Speaker 1: notes right now about getting someone from the body farm
Speaker 1: on the show. Okay, ye forensic and to my forensic
Speaker 1: and just someone who like puts a person out and
Speaker 1: then a while later goes and checks on them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting something.
Speaker 1: Can you horin up?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Sure, I mean there are a couple of them. There's
Speaker 6: one in Texas. There are a couple kind of around
Speaker 6: where they're doing.
Speaker 1: We want the person who's best.
Speaker 6: Body farm. The one at Tennessee is kind of the
Speaker 6: the most well known one and.
Speaker 3: Absolutely krin you can donate your body there for science and.
Speaker 6: You can there's kind of consider.
Speaker 1: No cure.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, wasn't there a whole thing about uh one
Speaker 6: of the.
Speaker 8: Lab the heads of the lab at was it.
Speaker 6: Harvard or another university of a cadaver lab where they
Speaker 6: were actually selling off body parts.
Speaker 1: No, I would mind picking one up experiment, Yeah, be
Speaker 1: like see that you know what that is right in
Speaker 1: my freezer? All right? Sorry, yeah, yeah, you go ahead
Speaker 1: with your line of questions.
Speaker 3: I don't think I add a question that we're listening to.
Speaker 3: Angela explained about the body.
Speaker 6: I mean, last I heard, they were they were full
Speaker 6: of and that they had their they were at max
Speaker 6: capacity of you know, the number of people that they
Speaker 6: could take on the head signed up. So many people
Speaker 6: want to donate, donate their bodies, and there's a pretty
Speaker 6: you know, an extensive process of paperwork that you need
Speaker 6: to do before, you know, because part of the work
Speaker 6: that they're doing at that lab is you know, being
Speaker 6: able to track things I have to do with knowing
Speaker 6: you know, kind of what your diet is and your
Speaker 6: ages and things like that. So they need some background
Speaker 6: information on who you are and kind of what kind
Speaker 6: of lifestyle you lived or things like that. So you know,
Speaker 6: my friend was clipping cadaver fingernails to do some some
Speaker 6: work on on cadaver finger things like that. I mean,
Speaker 6: it's really it's it's really interesting work. Definitely be a
Speaker 6: good episode.
Speaker 1: Are you familiar? I think this might have got debunked,
Speaker 1: but there was a site where they had they the
Speaker 1: way they interpreted this site at the time, was it
Speaker 1: someone had they had killed some mammoths, put those mammoths
Speaker 1: in a pond, and then to the intestines and packed
Speaker 1: them full of gravel and wove the gravel over. Wove
Speaker 1: the gravel filled in testines as weights. Oh okay, over
Speaker 1: the carcasses to hold them underwater. So the intestine rotted away.
Speaker 1: But you had this skeleton remains of this meat overlaid
Speaker 1: with these cylinders of gravel, And that's what they suspected
Speaker 1: that they had made.
Speaker 6: Like in ans, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. I
Speaker 6: think we think of ancient peoples as kind of like slow. No, right, No,
Speaker 6: of course not. They would have figured out all sorts
Speaker 6: of stuff like this, right, they would have figured out pretty.
Speaker 1: Cool to think of that as like a new timey idea.
Speaker 1: What packing testines full of gravel and laying them over
Speaker 1: some meat. Yeah, I mean, if I got friends that
Speaker 1: none of us proposed that we do.
Speaker 6: That, try it. I mean, next time you guys go
Speaker 6: out hunting, take take a carcass that has something left
Speaker 6: on it and put it, put it in a you know,
Speaker 6: a cold body of water, cover it with some gravelly
Speaker 6: intestines and see how long? Yeah, see how long it takes.
Speaker 1: We've done that just to keep flies where it's not.
Speaker 1: It's kind of nasty the way it looks after a while.
Speaker 1: But between getting full of fly eggs and hot or
Speaker 1: putting it in the creek, we've opted to just stick
Speaker 1: in the creek.
Speaker 6: How long did you leave it for?
Speaker 1: Days? A couple days?
Speaker 6: What was it like?
Speaker 1: When it just looks like something that drowned. It gets
Speaker 1: bled out real bad, so it gets white. But I
Speaker 1: don't think if you PEPSI challenged it, I don't think
Speaker 1: you'd be able to taste the difference, to be honest
Speaker 1: with you, it just looks. It just looks off putting.
Speaker 6: How long do you think you could leave it in
Speaker 6: the water.
Speaker 1: Well, if you put it in, if you put it
Speaker 1: in the creek and that creek was running like a
Speaker 1: glacial stream where that thing's running forty to fifty degrees,
Speaker 1: I bet you put them there for weeks and it'd
Speaker 1: still be edible.
Speaker 3: Try it, Yeah, as long as something else wasn't starting
Speaker 3: to eat on it. Yeah, but just cold glacial water
Speaker 3: in there, yeah, I guess colder, it is probably less
Speaker 3: bacteria and whatnot in there to eat it or actually.
Speaker 1: In the case where we did it, that stuff was
Speaker 1: a glacier earlier that day, so.
Speaker 6: It stayed really cool, real cold. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Did you notice any trends with the average life span
Speaker 4: of domestic dogs thousands of years ago? Did it seem
Speaker 4: very different?
Speaker 6: Not really? You know, we found lots of ten twelve
Speaker 6: year old dogs. Wow, ancient dogs, which is, you know,
Speaker 6: not that far off from now. I mean how old,
Speaker 6: dear guys.
Speaker 7: Hunting dogs, I always say, twelve is an easy number.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 7: About right of active hunting and not necessarily the last
Speaker 7: year or two. But in some cases, you know, what
Speaker 7: is the.
Speaker 6: Life cycle of like a hunting dog in terms of
Speaker 6: how long does it take to train, when's it get good,
Speaker 6: when's it kind of plateau?
Speaker 1: And then when does it in the bird.
Speaker 7: Dog world, I don't know in the hound world, Yanni,
Speaker 7: But in the bird dog world what I said, by
Speaker 7: three years, you know what you have third season, and
Speaker 7: of course that takes training to get there.
Speaker 1: His die has been cast.
Speaker 7: Right right, like he's but this way, he's not going
Speaker 7: to get better. He's not going to start pointing him
Speaker 7: forty yards away. And giving you more opportunity. Whatever he's
Speaker 7: developed over a couple of three seasons, there's your dog.
Speaker 1: How long until you know? How long until you know
Speaker 1: what you got?
Speaker 7: Usually you can tell about a year and a half,
Speaker 7: like you used to get one hunting season behind you,
Speaker 7: and you see potential and then you're just hoping to
Speaker 7: build on that. But sometimes it just never builds.
Speaker 1: God, it just but you formed on strong. At a
Speaker 1: year and a half, you have a strong hunch.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah yeah, And at three years you know, yeah,
Speaker 7: I got a dog right now that hunts behind me.
Speaker 1: Jesus making sure.
Speaker 7: I just can't bear to color. We lined up in
Speaker 7: North Dakota, Les.
Speaker 1: Can take off the rear on he just against you
Speaker 1: pass one by.
Speaker 7: We had five of us pushing this big state land
Speaker 7: and it's behind us. She's doing a nice job of
Speaker 7: going left to right, but she's behind us. So I
Speaker 7: think Trent said, well, how about if we turn around
Speaker 7: and walk backwards. So yeah, she's not gonna be a
Speaker 7: rock star but for the hound, gentleman.
Speaker 1: But what a second, I wanted this, this this rear
Speaker 1: hunt dog. Well, so that kind of thing. There's no
Speaker 1: way you're going.
Speaker 7: To that and I'll be honest with you. I know
Speaker 7: for a fact because I know who owned her and
Speaker 7: they and I got him from her. She did something
Speaker 7: very similar to that in her little puppy test before
Speaker 7: she was a year of age.
Speaker 1: You're not going to crack that. No, you're not gonna say.
Speaker 7: Listen, Oh you could over you could over handle her
Speaker 7: and call her around and call her around and call
Speaker 7: her around. I just let her hut. She hunts fine
Speaker 7: with one person, but with more than one person she
Speaker 7: decides to go left to right behind you. But how
Speaker 7: long is the hound head?
Speaker 3: I think Frank could probably speak to it better than
Speaker 3: I can.
Speaker 1: Well, it's with.
Speaker 5: They have been bread so strong over the last fifty
Speaker 5: sixty years. You're lying the coon dogs, Yes, yeah, it's
Speaker 5: and you all the even you know, if you're pleasure
Speaker 5: hunting or your competition hunting, you're getting your dogs from
Speaker 5: the same place, all out of the same litters, and
Speaker 5: their bread for competition. So the breeding is to have
Speaker 5: a dog that's barking, quicker, that's tree and quicker for
Speaker 5: competition because in competition you don't necessarily have to see
Speaker 5: a coon in the tree. In the summertime, the leaves
Speaker 5: are full of If the trees are full of leaves
Speaker 5: and you can't see a coon, it's called circle points
Speaker 5: and you get credit for that. You know, you could
Speaker 5: you could win a coon hunting competition at night and
Speaker 5: never look at a coon if there was any doubt
Speaker 5: that there wasn't a coon in that tree. You know,
Speaker 5: if you if you went to a tree that didn't
Speaker 5: have any leaves on it and you couldn't you everybody can. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you could look all the way around and there wasn't
Speaker 5: any holes in it and you could see you know,
Speaker 5: that's called slick treeing. You know, there's nothing in there.
Speaker 5: That's that's a minus. If you tree on that same
Speaker 5: tree in the summertime, when it's full of leaves and
Speaker 5: you just can't happen to see it, you can say, well,
Speaker 5: they're theoretically you know, you could hide six up there,
Speaker 5: but we just can't see them. But that's you know,
Speaker 5: would you see your beast? Well, my dog started treating
Speaker 5: by hisself when he was nine months old, but that's
Speaker 5: not I mean, that's not highly unusual. There's yeah, it's
Speaker 5: all that's what it is. He he is following that
Speaker 5: genetic cold that's been instilled in him.
Speaker 1: But at a year, like you.
Speaker 5: Were saying, a year and a year and a half,
Speaker 5: that's when most folks start deciding I'm going to keep
Speaker 5: this dog, or you know, maybe he's got some characteristics
Speaker 5: that I don't like that I'm that somebody else is
Speaker 5: okay with. And I'm not a competition hunter, so I'm
Speaker 5: just I'm just looking for when I cut the dog loose,
Speaker 5: that when he starts treeing, that he's he's looking at
Speaker 5: a looking at a coon. So what he does between
Speaker 5: the time I turn him loose and he treats a coon,
Speaker 5: it's really immaterial to me. As long as he barks
Speaker 5: enough that I can keep up with him. He's not
Speaker 5: running deer, not running chasing armadals or treeing possums or
Speaker 5: anything like that off game, which he doesn't. And it's
Speaker 5: it's you talk about wolves and how dogs came from that,
Speaker 5: you know, it's inherently against what a predator would do.
Speaker 5: Chasing prey to make noise, you know, A coon dog
Speaker 5: or any kind of dog that chases game that barks
Speaker 5: out loud for you to know where he's at, is
Speaker 5: really going against what would would be able for them
Speaker 5: to fill in the dinner plate because he's chasing a
Speaker 5: coon to eat, because it's a prey drive, the prey
Speaker 5: instinct that he's going after.
Speaker 7: He's giving him a lot of warning, he's marking.
Speaker 5: He's saying, I'm coming, you know, and that's no point
Speaker 5: tree with the whole exactly.
Speaker 3: He's like Kevin Murphy.
Speaker 1: I feel the need to quote Jerry Kloer. Jerry Klower said,
Speaker 1: when Brummy trees out on a coon, you don't have
Speaker 1: to worry about no possum or no wildcat. That's right,
Speaker 1: that's exactly.
Speaker 3: How many prime years will you get then out of that?
Speaker 5: Oh you can, you know, with proper care, and he
Speaker 5: gets carred for properly. You can hunt a dog, you know,
Speaker 5: seven eight, nine years old, and we hunt. I keep
Speaker 5: I keep him in shape, We hunt, you know, year round.
Speaker 5: His doghouse has an air conditioner in it.
Speaker 7: I think that'll build up tolerance.
Speaker 5: And a heater so it never gets hotter than seventy
Speaker 5: five degrees in there, colder than fifty five.
Speaker 7: Hey, Steve, did you know that your hometown, my adopted hometown,
Speaker 7: is home of one of the most famous coon dog
Speaker 7: walker bereaeders in the history of the world. Oh yeah,
Speaker 7: the Giddings family, Chuck, Frank Kitttings, Frank Frank Gettings, Chuck.
Speaker 7: Really yeah, he had that.
Speaker 1: Carl got his walkers and everything. Yep.
Speaker 7: And his son, Chuck lives right next door to me.
Speaker 7: That log home next to me, that's Chuck Gettings house. Seriously, yeah,
Speaker 7: and his dad is in his eighties and he still
Speaker 7: runs coons every night, every night, every night.
Speaker 1: So is that well, no, you can't because I thought
Speaker 1: it was the training season there, oh, Phil.
Speaker 7: There is the season when it is closed. You're right,
Speaker 7: But any night that he could be out out that's good.
Speaker 1: Heed.
Speaker 5: In Arkansas, you can hunt, you know your you can
Speaker 5: hunt your round and you can take game. You can
Speaker 5: kill coons on private land year round and there's no
Speaker 5: limit on them. I don't kill very man coon scept
Speaker 5: in the wintertime when the when the fur is good,
Speaker 5: you know, I'll bring the fur home. But the you
Speaker 5: can still get out there and do it. And then
Speaker 5: you know, those dogs, there's the domestication of them. And
Speaker 5: a lot of people would think, or I used to
Speaker 5: think that it was you had to train a dog
Speaker 5: to make him do what you wanted to. It had
Speaker 5: to be about four, she would think, you know, somebody,
Speaker 5: really he had had to be heavy handed with.
Speaker 1: A dog to get him to do something. But that's
Speaker 1: not the case.
Speaker 8: No.
Speaker 5: You know, every dog that I've ever owned, even labradors
Speaker 5: when I was training the labradors, they have an inherent
Speaker 5: desire to please you. And you just got to if
Speaker 5: you can't show that dog that you appreciate what he's
Speaker 5: doing and let him know that. When when whaling trees
Speaker 5: and he he when I cut him loose and he tracks,
Speaker 5: he barks on the trail and then he trees and
Speaker 5: I praise him. That's all that's that's his reward. His
Speaker 5: reward is not the coon in the tree, because those
Speaker 5: those days are over with. His reward is me being
Speaker 5: pleased with how he did it. If he goes out
Speaker 5: to do it again. Yeah, And if he goes out
Speaker 5: and does something, he does some the wrong, I mean,
Speaker 5: knock on wood. He's never treated a possum. But how
Speaker 5: I would deal with that is he wouldn't get a reward.
Speaker 7: He'd just be like, come on, let's get out of here.
Speaker 5: I put I put a snap on a leash on
Speaker 5: him and lead him away and cut him loose again.
Speaker 7: And it would be different for him. He'd be like,
Speaker 7: he's like, oh man, he rubs my ears real good
Speaker 7: when we do this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, election is still gonna let him come in the house.
Speaker 3: But most ancient people get the same feeling of just
Speaker 3: joyful pride that I got when I was in Arkansas
Speaker 3: and Mingus treated his first coon.
Speaker 1: That doesn't.
Speaker 6: I mean, let me tell you, I've seen some really elaborate,
Speaker 6: elaborate dog burials, ancient dog burials. There's one site in
Speaker 6: Sweden where big cemetery got humans in big cemetery, but
Speaker 6: humans in one location, young children in this kind of
Speaker 6: like middle ground location, and then a whole cemetery of
Speaker 6: dogs and some of those dog barrils. One of those
Speaker 6: dog barrels is the most like richly decorated, more than
Speaker 6: the human burials. It's got, I mean, all sorts of
Speaker 6: shells and points and red deer antlers and ochre and
Speaker 6: the whole it's it's curled up with its tail kind
Speaker 6: of between its legs and it's its legs tucked up.
Speaker 6: And I mean, you have to think that a dog's
Speaker 6: not being parried like that unless something, Yeah, there's something
Speaker 6: like they're just thinking like this is the greatest dog ever.
Speaker 6: But also you know, there's no telling how many hunting
Speaker 6: dogs they lost in the forest, right, and the dog
Speaker 6: gets buried in the forest and never makes it makes
Speaker 6: it back. But I mean, what for me for domestication studies,
Speaker 6: I think one of the most interesting questions for me
Speaker 6: is this you know thing that you guys are talking
Speaker 6: about where they are the ancestors of wolves. They have
Speaker 6: a prey drive. But somehow we've something's happened in the
Speaker 6: relationship with humans where they have mosts released to let
Speaker 6: the final step be kind of taken over by humans,
Speaker 6: right to make the kill, to make whatever that that
Speaker 6: final decision is on. Okay, I've chased, I've scented it,
Speaker 6: I've gotten you here, I've done my job as I've
Speaker 6: used all my innate senses as a dog to get
Speaker 6: us here. Now you're the one to make.
Speaker 1: The kill that raca the tree. It's like you get
Speaker 1: like a couple of seconds, I portion it out, I
Speaker 1: get what I want you.
Speaker 6: This is the question of like how did that This
Speaker 6: is interesting to me of like how that process happens.
Speaker 6: That's brilliant where wolves released that control over the final
Speaker 6: step of the kill and then what happens afterwards. And
Speaker 6: so when people tell me, you know, we we we
Speaker 6: chose to domesticate wolves like we would have were hunting
Speaker 6: alongside them, I'm trying to think, like, you know, it's
Speaker 6: almost like Twilight, like running in the woods alongside the
Speaker 6: wolves and you're hunting deer and I'm hunting deer, and
Speaker 6: so we decided to hunt together. I just can't see that.
Speaker 6: I can't see the scenario in which you make a kill.
Speaker 6: You're there, the pack of wolves and you and a
Speaker 6: deer between you.
Speaker 7: Go ahead.
Speaker 5: Well, seventy but I would say easily seventy percent of
Speaker 5: the dogs that I hunt with now, if it's during
Speaker 5: kill season in the winter and we shoot a coon out,
Speaker 5: they'll They'll grab a hold of it and then that's it.
Speaker 5: I'll just turn and walk away and go look for another.
Speaker 3: They just need a little the same way you think
Speaker 3: he's just going to tear the thing to shreds, but
Speaker 3: he gives it one little Yeah.
Speaker 1: He gets his food from you. My kids have a
Speaker 1: red squirrel dog. It is an expert red squirrel hunter,
Speaker 1: and all she wants to do is she wants to
Speaker 1: know that they've been shot down. Out of the tree,
Speaker 1: won't eed it, no desire to pick it up.
Speaker 3: She's treeing those resis.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, she trees them with a bark. Nope,
Speaker 1: that's the I said. If you could get that dog
Speaker 1: to bark, they got a follower. She'll hear if a
Speaker 1: pine squirrel cuts out, she's going to that pine squirrel
Speaker 1: and she will get and sit at the base of
Speaker 1: tree and stare at that squirrel. And if you find her,
Speaker 1: there's a squirrel there and she's sitting there staring at it.
Speaker 1: And when they shoot it down, she's just done.
Speaker 7: Did you do any gun preparation for this or did
Speaker 7: it just work out?
Speaker 1: No? They kept telling me how good she was at it,
Speaker 1: and I kind of didn't believe it. But it's it's true. Man.
Speaker 1: That dog is a That dog will get one squirrel
Speaker 1: after the other, after the other after the other. Right,
Speaker 1: because pine squirrels are so vocal and they have the
Speaker 1: achilles their achilles heel. I'm not saying every one of
Speaker 1: them does it, but when they're not happy with your presence,
Speaker 1: they oh so just keeps it going. There's always if
Speaker 1: you're in a good area, there's always two or.
Speaker 7: Three of them.
Speaker 1: Going, dude you And so she just goes to that
Speaker 1: one and she'll find out where it is and stare
Speaker 1: at it, and they'd act different. They'll when she treats them,
Speaker 1: they'll treat lower and out in the open and often
Speaker 1: sit there barking at her, not like they would with
Speaker 1: a person. Yeah, so they my kids clean up on
Speaker 1: them anyway, zero interest.
Speaker 6: What's happened. Something's happened.
Speaker 1: It wants to see them and wants to go out
Speaker 1: and be like, yep, that one's dead and that's it.
Speaker 6: But they've like that last final step of like predator
Speaker 6: response partnership has like released to humans.
Speaker 1: That's a great point. Why you'd go through all that
Speaker 1: trouble and then a thing that would once reward you
Speaker 1: and your pack with all this food. You'd go through
Speaker 1: all of that same trouble and in the end not
Speaker 1: get to be the one you get the scramps, not
Speaker 1: get to be the one that decides on allocation.
Speaker 6: You do all the work, and then you're just like
Speaker 6: let go and then like back. Which is interesting when
Speaker 6: we have conversations with people.
Speaker 7: Didn't happen till they made Kipple dry dog.
Speaker 6: For But I mean, you know, people have cats who
Speaker 6: you know, those cats go out and they'll fend for
Speaker 6: themselves all day long.
Speaker 1: But yeah, get a cat thust.
Speaker 6: Dogs like they can chase they can.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can tell you a little something about cats
Speaker 5: as far as law enforcement goes. Anytime any kind of
Speaker 5: investigation where we had a death on a you know
Speaker 5: and unobserved death where someone old person or something, they
Speaker 5: had died in the house lands in their feeding on them,
Speaker 5: they had a cat. The cat to be eating them.
Speaker 5: Where what's it like to eat nose first? Yeah, that's
Speaker 5: where they'll start. And then you go in there with
Speaker 5: a dog and a dog will be starving to death,
Speaker 5: will be dead laying beside them.
Speaker 1: They won't eat them, you know, cat will eat you
Speaker 1: for the shelter. Take your laugh, take your last breath,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean dogs on search.
Speaker 2: This podcast all about dogs.
Speaker 1: We play cat in the titles. Yeah, so like I'm
Speaker 1: thinking c a t apostrophe LLL right.
Speaker 8: Like a parenthetical part of the title, like dogs are better.
Speaker 1: I got one last question that weren't handed over to Ronnie.
Speaker 1: You're not interested in dogs, like you don't have a
Speaker 1: bunch of dogs.
Speaker 6: I have dogs?
Speaker 1: Oh you do? Okay, I thought you were saying that
Speaker 1: you just didn't you weren't into like actually having them.
Speaker 6: No, I have dogs. I've always had dogs my parents.
Speaker 1: Somehow in the pre chat I picked up that I
Speaker 1: didn't get that.
Speaker 6: Yeah I have Westies.
Speaker 1: Oh I just picked that up. Okay, I thought you
Speaker 1: were saying you were fixing to get into west.
Speaker 6: I'm fixing to get into some new dogs. I'm fixing
Speaker 6: to some were I want like big livestock guarding dogs,
Speaker 6: you know, lives. That's what we're saying.
Speaker 1: She goes.
Speaker 7: Now I got to get I.
Speaker 6: Have to get goats and sheep and property.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't start with you start with like
Speaker 1: that jail.
Speaker 6: This is what I this is. This is part of
Speaker 6: what I argue with some of my you know, archaeology
Speaker 6: colleagues about it is like, if you decide you're gonna
Speaker 6: you're gonna use dogs to hunt, right, and the dogs
Speaker 6: are like the primary decision makers. Then does all technology
Speaker 6: follow from using dogs to hunt? This is the other
Speaker 6: technology that you use then have to align with how
Speaker 6: you hunt with dogs.
Speaker 1: You know, my guess would be and I don't know
Speaker 1: my guess would be with humans. It was that initially,
Speaker 1: it was that it was useful foreign activity already occurring,
Speaker 1: and not that they said. He if we had one
Speaker 1: of those, we would change how we go about this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was probably you know, when we try to drive
Speaker 1: all those things up into that box canyon, that would
Speaker 1: go even better. Yeah, well the dog.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So the ethnography and the ethnic history when you
Speaker 6: read about hunting, I read a lot of like you know,
Speaker 6: modern ethnography, but historical ethnography about people who went and
Speaker 6: lived with indigenous groups somewhere and how they use dogs,
Speaker 6: and you hear similar stories over and over. There's always
Speaker 6: like a prize dog who's just the best, and everyone
Speaker 6: wants the puppies from that prize dog and like allows
Speaker 6: them to do something that they couldn't do before. You
Speaker 6: always hear stories about some type of prey, usually something
Speaker 6: semi dangerous, bore or something like that that is just
Speaker 6: too dangerous to go after on their own, but now
Speaker 6: that they have dogs, they've decided they're gonna go after it.
Speaker 1: That's what I was wrong.
Speaker 6: Well, for certain animals, I think for some, like the
Speaker 6: most more dangerous animals. You hear this in like Arabia
Speaker 6: for example, like going after ibex, super dangerous and they
Speaker 6: get themselves up into like crevices and stuff that you're
Speaker 6: not going to go after them, but your dogs will.
Speaker 6: Got it, So praise spieces that you normally would be
Speaker 6: like not not.
Speaker 1: It opened up opportunity, opportunity, we know. It backs you
Speaker 1: up on that. The last thing you're gonna do is
Speaker 1: catch a lion. Yeah, I mean you live, you could
Speaker 1: live a lifetime. I mean a mountain lion. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: live a lifetime and be like I spent my whole
Speaker 1: life in the mountains that I've seen two mountain lions.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that opens up a thing that you just are
Speaker 1: not going to accomplish. Yeah, and it makes it possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, it's not like it so that that contradicts
Speaker 1: my earlier point. You're right, it's like you're not going
Speaker 1: to get one without it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, yeah, there are certain there are certain things.
Speaker 6: You also hear a lot of stories of we used
Speaker 6: to have to go out in five or ten person
Speaker 6: hunting groups. But now Phil Phil can go out by himself,
Speaker 6: This Phil or that Phil, any Phil, Phil can go
Speaker 6: out by himself with a group of five dogs and
Speaker 6: do what we used to have to take ten people.
Speaker 6: Now the other eight people can go and do something
Speaker 6: actually useful around the camp, or go somewhere else and
Speaker 6: do something else. So it frees up people to do
Speaker 6: other things because a pack of dogs can do what
Speaker 6: a pack of humans would do, and probably much better.
Speaker 1: Me and Yanni interviewed a guy, do you remember his Yanni,
Speaker 1: a Chimane guy. He had to tell his story in
Speaker 1: Chimane to someone who spoke Spanish.
Speaker 3: No, to someone that spoke correct, that spoke Timani and Spanish.
Speaker 1: He told me someone who knows Chimani and Spanish, who
Speaker 1: then listened and told it, and then to a Spanish
Speaker 1: Spanish English speaker, and then we're getting to like third hand.
Speaker 1: It was a big story about hunting jaguars with a
Speaker 1: dog and a jaguar that had killed some of his dogs,
Speaker 1: and eventually getting a jaguar or after it killed his
Speaker 1: primary dog, Yeah, his main dog.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So my colleague that I told you about before
Speaker 6: in Nicaragua, lots of jaguars where he is, and he says,
Speaker 6: you know, when he goes back, the percentage of dogs
Speaker 6: that are left from the year before is very low,
Speaker 6: and it's largely due to jaguars, but they're also using
Speaker 6: the dog. They're using the dogs as hunting dogs, but
Speaker 6: also is in many ways that kind of not bait.
Speaker 6: But if jaguars going to attack someone, then you'd rather
Speaker 6: attack your dog and attack you.
Speaker 1: We were in a village they had lost at the
Speaker 1: time we were there, and it continued for a while.
Speaker 1: At the time we were there, they had in the
Speaker 1: last month or two, I camera the timing they had
Speaker 1: lost twenty four dogs to a jaguar, which they thought
Speaker 1: to be a single jaguar had killed twenty four dogs
Speaker 1: I camera as the last month or two, and it
Speaker 1: went on after we left, right.
Speaker 6: But this is also the reason why when you ask
Speaker 6: people in a village like that, like how much time
Speaker 6: you spend training your dogs? How much time you're going
Speaker 6: to spend training a dog that like tomorrow could get
Speaker 6: killed by a ja So you rely on some level
Speaker 6: of like natural ability and instinct, which is probably also
Speaker 6: why hunting dogs can be really great there but also
Speaker 6: really frustrating because they don't have much training. You're just
Speaker 6: hoping for a good one. When you do get a
Speaker 6: good one, you breed them and you everyone wants the
Speaker 6: puppies because they're hoping that one's natural abilities of hunting,
Speaker 6: you know, kind of pan out, but you don't have
Speaker 6: three years because they might get killed by jaguar tomorrow.
Speaker 6: So that's a lot of training investment to put into
Speaker 6: the dog that's going to get killed tomorrow. So I
Speaker 6: think the use of hunting dogs is highly correlated to
Speaker 6: like what pray you're going after, the environment that you're
Speaker 6: in that determines how useful a hunting dog may or
Speaker 6: may not be, and a lot of places where you
Speaker 6: read Ethnografyorth no history of hunting dogs. You know, the
Speaker 6: use of hunting dogs is like critical to their economy.
Speaker 6: They can't go out and take the number of animals
Speaker 6: that they could they were doing it by themselves. Or
Speaker 6: you know, you have a single guy who's trying to
Speaker 6: feed his family and he can go out maybe take
Speaker 6: down one small animal, but with a pack of dogs,
Speaker 6: he can corral an animal and then kill it and
Speaker 6: make a much bigger kill or something like that. So
Speaker 6: you know, there are these kind of variations based on
Speaker 6: what prey you're going after. Or you know, your dogs
Speaker 6: make it eight nine years with productive hunting, but if
Speaker 6: they're an environment where mountain lions are going after him,
Speaker 6: or jaguar or something like that, wolves going after them
Speaker 6: or something like that. Maybe you wouldn't put the time
Speaker 6: and effort into the training if you're losing dogs more
Speaker 6: regularly or something like.
Speaker 5: That, they concentrate more on quantity.
Speaker 6: Right with your dogs, do you guys? Are they trained
Speaker 6: by humans only or is it reliance on other dogs.
Speaker 5: That's the two methods that that coon dogs use. But
Speaker 5: they're so independent now. That's when I was training in mine.
Speaker 5: I was training with a friend of mine. He had
Speaker 5: an older dog, well established and straight coon dog. He
Speaker 5: didn't treat possums or anything, and we'd cut them loose together,
Speaker 5: but they would after one hundred and fifty two hundred
Speaker 5: yards of my dog following him around, he would just
Speaker 5: break off on his own and then and that independence
Speaker 5: has been bred into him a lot because of the
Speaker 5: competition hunting where.
Speaker 1: Oh, because they got he's got to score. You don't
Speaker 1: want like a you don't want to tag along dog right.
Speaker 5: Because because of who If he's second to the tree,
Speaker 5: then he's his points are or less.
Speaker 1: But if he goes and does his own thing, he
Speaker 1: gets the same prioritize dog that doesn't like peers. That's
Speaker 1: more independent.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And what is the like through rate? If you
Speaker 6: have a litter of six pups, how many of those
Speaker 6: six pups and the dogs you're talking about turn out
Speaker 6: to be.
Speaker 5: There's a guy that had a the who's the grandfather
Speaker 5: of my dog? And that dog was like one of
Speaker 5: ten or twelve, and it was the rest of them
Speaker 5: are nothing, And this dog was an absolute world beater.
Speaker 5: They he bred him with another world beaten female, a
Speaker 5: whole litter of puppies that you would think would be dynamos.
Speaker 5: None of them are worth anything, bred them again the
Speaker 5: next time, and maybe three out of ten were world beaters.
Speaker 5: So it's just, you know, there's a lot of math
Speaker 5: that goes in there that nobody understands, because it's not
Speaker 5: always best and best bread together make the best, and
Speaker 5: it just doesn't work that way. And I can't answer
Speaker 5: why that is. But you would think the same. And
Speaker 5: it's like me and my brothers, we got the same
Speaker 5: mom and the same daddy. I'm the only pretty one
Speaker 5: out of the whole brunch.
Speaker 1: So it's the same thing. So didn't Jerry Clark call
Speaker 1: you pretty? He did, so you're a pretty boy. Put
Speaker 1: him in the whole New life. Did he say it
Speaker 1: like how like say a clown like a like like
Speaker 1: a you know, like a creepy way like a grandpa. Okay,
Speaker 1: not like you know what I'm saying. No, like no,
Speaker 1: all right, Ronnie, take it away.
Speaker 7: Uh Well, I just want to thank you for letting
Speaker 7: me come out to do a little advertising. Yep, you
Speaker 7: let me come out a couple of years ago and
Speaker 7: we released the Upland Institute the Pointing Dog Training series,
Speaker 7: which is done very well. And I do get notes
Speaker 7: from emails. Heard about you on Meat Eater podcast. Great
Speaker 7: finally got a puppy and they remembered it. So I
Speaker 7: called you up and I said, uh, I got into
Speaker 7: the project I'm working on right now, and I had
Speaker 7: so much fun, like getting into the not that I'm
Speaker 7: the editor, but sitting in on the editing process and
Speaker 7: watching how you could just take a bunch of let's
Speaker 7: just say b roll, even if it's on purpose, and
Speaker 7: you could turn it into something. And Matt, my partner,
Speaker 7: he loves the job of editing, and he kind of said,
Speaker 7: what can we do down the road? He said, he said,
Speaker 7: I you know, we're burning He's burning the candle at
Speaker 7: both ends. But he said, what can we do? And
Speaker 7: he's got a day job right as an editor, you know,
Speaker 7: but he he would like to do this full time.
Speaker 7: I'm like, boy, I mean we could do I didn't
Speaker 7: want to do a different training video because I already
Speaker 7: did a training video and it came to me like
Speaker 7: I get so I filter so many people's emails, Ronnie,
Speaker 7: I'm getting my next dog, Ronnie, I'm getting my first dog, Ronnie.
Speaker 7: I'm I went from German short hairs and I want
Speaker 7: to try one of your big, long eared broncos. So
Speaker 7: I realized it's just like, until you've been in it,
Speaker 7: there's a lot of people just will never really get
Speaker 7: into the minutia of how dogs are bred, how they're selected,
Speaker 7: how it happened. So we decided to build this series
Speaker 7: that were filmed. In the middle of filming, We've got
Speaker 7: a couple episodes done. It's called Behind the Dog because
Speaker 7: that's kind of like, if you're a dog person, everything
Speaker 7: you do is behind the dog, or in.
Speaker 1: The case of your dog, in front of the dog in.
Speaker 2: The one dog's case, right exactly.
Speaker 7: So yeah, so Behind the Dog films what we're doing
Speaker 7: is we're trying to find let's say the top tier
Speaker 7: breeders of every breed in this country, and there's a
Speaker 7: lot of them.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 7: We did one with a short hair a German short
Speaker 7: hair pointer breeder. We're working on editing one that we
Speaker 7: did with a Vima. I'm gonna do it right a
Speaker 7: or a weimer Reiner.
Speaker 1: How it was supposed to go yea wema, yeah, and
Speaker 1: why Wagner group in the group.
Speaker 7: Exactly exactly, And then of course, you know, a more
Speaker 7: difficult one will be And we found a labrador breeder,
Speaker 7: and there's so many labradors in this country. But what
Speaker 7: we're trying to do is find the breeders that put
Speaker 7: the most back into the breed god, from health testing
Speaker 7: to hunt testing and an actual hunting. Like there's never
Speaker 7: going to be someone who just shows their dogs in
Speaker 7: a show ring, but they might hunt them, show them
Speaker 7: and sign up for every possible health test they could
Speaker 7: because they're so concerned that like, look, I'm selling these
Speaker 7: dogs for a lot of money. Now, remember what a
Speaker 7: dog costs twenty even twenty years ago, we spent two
Speaker 7: hundred dollars on a dog or five hundred maybe, And
Speaker 7: so we want to kind of bring these what are not.
Speaker 1: Don't give me the extremes, but what's happened to that
Speaker 1: price two to five twenty years ago has become two thousand.
Speaker 7: That would be easy right in the middle, two thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: There was an auction recently, like an outfitter auction down
Speaker 3: in New Mexico, a mule and hound auction. I don't
Speaker 3: know what the mules went for, but there were a
Speaker 3: couple of dogs that broke twenty thousand for lionhounds. Yeah, wow,
Speaker 3: dry ground line.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's every day in the coon hound world.
Speaker 7: So that's what we're That's like kind of our Grail quest.
Speaker 7: We we want to find the top tier breeders and
Speaker 7: eventually even go down to Terry or colleagues. Got ways
Speaker 7: to go for you get there. We got but it
Speaker 7: gives me something to do. I'm retired, so I can
Speaker 7: just drive around the country.
Speaker 1: Well, let me just chime in them out. So what
Speaker 1: I thought was that what one did was I looking
Speaker 1: I can't remember.
Speaker 7: Were looking at the one about the Germany short hair breeders.
Speaker 1: So so Ronnie's at a breeder right, kind of doing
Speaker 1: a podcast. Yeah, and they're but they're showing so there
Speaker 1: they have all these dogs running around different age classes,
Speaker 1: and just this is just one of the many things
Speaker 1: in here, right is they stand one up. Okay, they
Speaker 1: stand one up on a pedestal. What do you call
Speaker 1: that thing?
Speaker 7: Just tap the platform.
Speaker 1: They stand one up on a platform, and they say,
Speaker 1: when I'm when I'm looking at these, here's what I'm
Speaker 1: looking for, very specific.
Speaker 7: The nose could this confirmation?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would stand this way, This should look like this.
Speaker 1: This should look like this. So even if you weren't
Speaker 1: at even if you weren't going to that breeder, let's
Speaker 1: say you can't afford it or whatever you could, you
Speaker 1: still watch it and you'd be like, oh, okay, so
Speaker 1: when I go look at pops, I'm trying to select
Speaker 1: the pop from my neighbor, from the dog pound whatever.
Speaker 7: These are attributes that would be K nine attributes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'd be like, you don't know, and like you said,
Speaker 1: you don't know yet how it's gonna turn out. Maybe,
Speaker 1: but these are attributes that would be signifiers of some
Speaker 1: of the things you might want to look for in early.
Speaker 7: Selection, right, Yeah, and we will in some of the episodes.
Speaker 7: We'll get into it as deep as we did in
Speaker 7: the first one where we showed basically we took like
Speaker 7: a year old dog and then went backwards to a
Speaker 7: sixteen week old dog, then a twelve, then an eight,
Speaker 7: then a four, and what she did with these pups
Speaker 7: for confirmation, it's been done for decades. Another woman started
Speaker 7: this where they literally can pick the dog up by
Speaker 7: the by the under the collar and between the legs
Speaker 7: and just watch the way the legs hang. I mean,
Speaker 7: someone are going to walk like me, Steve, and you
Speaker 7: know how funny I walk right with my knees out. Well,
Speaker 7: a puppy will show you that same thing. If he's
Speaker 7: gonna be cow howked, which is where they it would
Speaker 7: be knock kneed. If you were a person, you don't
Speaker 7: want to find out that you're gonna have a cow
Speaker 7: howk It's gonna run funny and eventually not be able
Speaker 7: to do the performance you want to do. It's gonna
Speaker 7: wear out its back end, it's gonna wear out its joints,
Speaker 7: just like I did, you know, walking with my knees
Speaker 7: going up in two directions. So yeah, there's things you
Speaker 7: could learn. You don't have to be interested in the
Speaker 7: German short hair. You could watch what she's doing with
Speaker 7: that puppy and like, wow, I'm gonna do that next
Speaker 7: time I look for a dog. And then so, yeah,
Speaker 7: it's like a We always interview the person at their
Speaker 7: home or their kennel or usually it's always both, of course.
Speaker 7: So we record a podcast just at a kitchen table,
Speaker 7: and then we film the whole time. We're doing it,
Speaker 7: like you're doing here. Now, we have cameras, two or.
Speaker 1: Three cameras film that and the hunts and everything.
Speaker 7: Right, And in that person's case, yeah, we hunted together
Speaker 7: that that prior season in North Dakota, so we use
Speaker 7: some of that footage when talking about how we met.
Speaker 7: You're actually watching our footage of our hunt in North.
Speaker 1: Dakota, and you learn, Like in that case, when I watch,
Speaker 1: you learn, why is hunting with this kind of dog?
Speaker 1: How is that different than other kinds of dogs? Meaning
Speaker 1: what are some of the expectations if you think about
Speaker 1: a bird hunting dog, what are some of the expectations
Speaker 1: of this breed, what are some of the expectations of
Speaker 1: that breed.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I honestly, I think where the point I
Speaker 7: want to make to people is like a bird dog
Speaker 7: is pretty much a bird dog, just like a hound
Speaker 7: is pretty much a trailing hound. They have some that
Speaker 7: are a little better at big game, a little better
Speaker 7: at small game. But it's what the breeders put into it.
Speaker 7: It's the standards that they hold themselves to. And when
Speaker 7: I say standard, it's their breeding ethics. But every breed
Speaker 7: in this country now, And that's why I wanted to
Speaker 7: ask you Angel, like, if you had a dire wolf skull,
Speaker 7: so all dogs have forty two teeth, would juicy? Yeah,
Speaker 7: twenty two and twenty and or two and twenty up?
Speaker 7: Would you see teeth misalignments and old skulls, So that
Speaker 7: would indicate to me hell.
Speaker 1: Of a trivia question. Man, Damn it.
Speaker 3: Was Ronnie that yesterday. I even wrote it down in
Speaker 3: my notes that was going to use that in oh Fu.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody would have got it right.
Speaker 7: Where a tiebreaker, but you also said that nobody would
Speaker 7: get it right, so it might not be hard.
Speaker 1: Was phenomenal tiebreaker material.
Speaker 7: What I wanted to ask Angel is like, if you found, uh,
Speaker 7: there was a dire wolf or a wolf or whatever
Speaker 7: with bad teeth, that's an indication of probably too much
Speaker 7: generational breeding. Possibly, Yeah, because if you had a dire
Speaker 7: wolf skull, how many of those exist out there.
Speaker 1: I don't even know. I'll tell you there's one hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy five of them.
Speaker 7: Oh there's Would they have any malclusions in their mouth?
Speaker 3: They do?
Speaker 6: They would too, Yeah, they haveclusions, they're missing molers, they
Speaker 6: have all sorts of.
Speaker 7: So all that is coming from that far back, I
Speaker 7: thought it was more of a last hundred years bringing.
Speaker 1: Things from messing with them too much.
Speaker 6: This is what we're trying to sort out right now,
Speaker 6: is that we think some of the things you're selecting
Speaker 6: for positively, like you know, a water dog, you want
Speaker 6: something with this type of coat, right, shoes, something that
Speaker 6: goes with this type of coat. But what trails along
Speaker 6: with it? The jeans that partner with that that you
Speaker 6: don't necessarily want but you're not thinking about. Come along for.
Speaker 1: The ride like bad hips, come along for the ride.
Speaker 7: I think we got to have you on an episode
Speaker 7: someday of Behind the Dog. Well, anyway, thank you, Steve.
Speaker 7: It's a It's all you have to do is go
Speaker 7: to behind Dog Films dot com.
Speaker 1: Well, so how many when you launch? Like? How many?
Speaker 1: Tell me what ones you're gonna have done? Now?
Speaker 7: Well, we have two completed. One of them was not
Speaker 7: a breeder specific, but it was a training video that
Speaker 7: we were shooting, and we really got into the weeds
Speaker 7: about how any good bird dog, especially duck dog obviously
Speaker 7: has to be comfortable with the water. Should just be
Speaker 7: another terrain to even your house dog.
Speaker 1: Right, if you go, you don't need to coax it
Speaker 1: at the shoreline.
Speaker 7: Dog on a walk and it won't cross the creek
Speaker 7: with you. Your kids aren't gonna let you finish the
Speaker 7: walk because the dog's like, well, but some dogs literally
Speaker 7: won't put a foot in water.
Speaker 1: So I know. I went down with her friend to
Speaker 1: swim at the creek yesterday and her friends got her
Speaker 1: dog in a life jacket.
Speaker 7: They don't need that.
Speaker 1: They don't need that. I said to her, I said,
Speaker 1: did she got dog? He's a life jacket. She's oil.
Speaker 1: She'll sink.
Speaker 3: That dog does not know how to swim.
Speaker 7: Does he swim like vertical? Yeah, that's not good.
Speaker 1: That's gonna wear all quick.
Speaker 7: But to answer your question, we did one with a
Speaker 7: breeder in Michigan that breeds German short airs. Yeah, we
Speaker 7: have a training one about the water. We're editing one
Speaker 7: currently with the Wine Mariner breed. Got it, Uh, we're
Speaker 7: going to what we're going to do. A wire haired
Speaker 7: pointing griffin breeder, and then a labraader, and then a
Speaker 7: poodle point breeder. Got it, poodle pointers, Not think of poodle,
Speaker 7: it's pu d e l. It's a German breed. We're
Speaker 7: gonna do that, I'm boise. So it's gonna be probably
Speaker 7: one a month until you know, we say, okay, Matt,
Speaker 7: quit your day job.
Speaker 1: And someday you might tackle the hounds. And oh absolutely.
Speaker 7: In fact, if Frank Gettings could be alive for long enough,
Speaker 7: I mean he might. But you also have to have
Speaker 7: the person that's good on the microphone too, which sure
Speaker 7: I always remember, like you had the first show Wild
Speaker 7: Within and you did that moose hunt and I specifically
Speaker 7: asked you how come you didn't have the guy on
Speaker 7: camera with you very much? And he says he just, well,
Speaker 7: come on, no, all right, Well, I'm just saying you
Speaker 7: have to find the right not just the right breeder,
Speaker 7: but the right conversationalist.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: They can be great at what they do, but they
Speaker 7: don't convey it. So you got so I that's my
Speaker 7: goal is to find the people that can convey their passion.
Speaker 1: Sure, and then your area of expertise is birds.
Speaker 7: You like stuff with others, right, everything, everything that flies.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 7: But that's why I want to you know, like the
Speaker 7: hounds is going to be a tough one to do.
Speaker 7: You know, there there's houndsmen that don't follow any pedigree,
Speaker 7: like they'll just they'll breed another outside type of hound.
Speaker 7: There's what is there seven basic hounds m H five Yeah,
Speaker 7: saving seven. So if if Brent wanted to take his
Speaker 7: walk what is your reading tree and walker and he
Speaker 7: did it to Yanni's redbone or blue tech, that's the
Speaker 7: hound joke and they bring them together, they probably get
Speaker 7: the same money for him. Oh it's it's more of
Speaker 7: a sarcastic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mean, like you you like a walkers, you're
Speaker 1: down on red bones and bluetooth anything else?
Speaker 7: Right, not really, but only among friends, right, So the houndsman,
Speaker 7: Like for me, I'm gonna have to find the houndsman
Speaker 7: who probably has a ten generation pedigree on his dogs.
Speaker 7: And really collectively and consciously it's like no, no, no,
Speaker 7: her her, her grandma did the same thing. Literally stood
Speaker 7: into kennel, barked and made circles. And you'll see that
Speaker 7: follow in litters of dogs all of a sudden and
Speaker 7: briers like, oh my god, that's just like her great
Speaker 7: aunt drove me crazy and it just pops up. Right,
Speaker 7: So I'm going to have to find a hound breeders
Speaker 7: that are like you guys Yianni and Brent might.
Speaker 1: Have to help got his dog from the dog.
Speaker 7: Well, I'm not gonna go to the but you're meeting
Speaker 7: so many you know, houndsmen. There's got to be that
Speaker 7: houndsman out there that like knows that breed like the
Speaker 7: plots do like like like obviously I would go to
Speaker 7: Bob plot to learn about the plot hounds.
Speaker 1: I didn't know. The plots are still the plots.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the plots are the plots still yep from Johanna's plot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times they come like the Dickenson's
Speaker 1: or something over time, right, really still the plots patrilineal descent.
Speaker 7: Well, obviously there's some you know, some coyotes and some
Speaker 7: other stuff probably happened.
Speaker 1: There's something in that, there's something in the woodpile.
Speaker 7: But for the most part, yes, yeah, like Clay would
Speaker 7: know all about Like Clay could lock me up with
Speaker 7: a bunch of good ones.
Speaker 1: So behind the dog dot.
Speaker 7: Com, behind the dog films dot.
Speaker 1: Com, behind the dog films dot com.
Speaker 7: I don't think we could get behind the dog for
Speaker 7: some reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you look for u r ls.
Speaker 7: There was behind the chicken, behind the horse, behind the dog,
Speaker 7: behind the cat, like we kick it.
Speaker 1: U r L's getting hard to come by, man. That's
Speaker 1: why places now to make up words to be Hulu whatever.
Speaker 1: You just make up words because you can't check it
Speaker 1: because nothing checks out anymore, right.
Speaker 7: Right, So, yeah, it's behind the dog films dot com
Speaker 7: and uh.
Speaker 1: And and upland instu is still kicking an asswer No.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah, now that that's a that's a complete
Speaker 7: four and a half hour training course. Yeah, yeah, still
Speaker 7: available these Oh yeah, it'll be available till the internet
Speaker 7: blows up, got or till we hit the little button
Speaker 7: in the background it says disabled. No, you can download
Speaker 7: it yourself. It's not downloadable. Otherwise you could just give
Speaker 7: it to your friend. Yeah, this is this is a
Speaker 7: pay system right now. We charged four ninety nine to
Speaker 7: watch it, and we're not sure if that's the model
Speaker 7: it's going to stay at. Yeah, but literally, just to
Speaker 7: earn the money to keep going to the next town,
Speaker 7: we like we had to monetize it before it was
Speaker 7: big enough to monetize in another fashion. So, but it's
Speaker 7: it's honestly, it's I don't know, Yanna you you did?
Speaker 7: You get to watch the rest of it with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did, we did. If you like dogs, you're
Speaker 3: gonna love it. There's a bunch of shots that dogs
Speaker 3: running around all over there and.
Speaker 7: Some interesting conversation about that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, behind the Dogfilms dot com. That's it all right,
Speaker 1: and and then and then tell folks how to find
Speaker 1: yourself there real quick? Is there a preferred way? Texas
Speaker 1: A and M Texas A and M.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you want people to write in with all kinds
Speaker 1: of things like, hey, I got this one dog.
Speaker 6: I get a lot of interesting emails.
Speaker 1: What's the thing you'd be most interested in hearing about
Speaker 1: if the museum had a dire wolf? Uh?
Speaker 6: Yeah, well I get a lot of people asking me
Speaker 6: about dire wolves, are saying that they think they have
Speaker 6: dire wolf stuff at various museums.
Speaker 1: What's the most annoying email you get? This will help
Speaker 1: people not email.
Speaker 6: Like ancient alien dog.
Speaker 2: You don't want those theories.
Speaker 1: I'm listening to this show. Email is in an alien
Speaker 1: dog theory, Man.
Speaker 4: Do you like Steve though and explain what the theory
Speaker 4: would be actually, So, I.
Speaker 6: Get a lot of people saying that dogs are actually
Speaker 6: aliens that have come from the Dog Star Cirrus, and
Speaker 6: that that some genetic material has come out of the
Speaker 6: star arrived on Earth and that dogs have appeared from there.
Speaker 6: And I'm dumb for this is a thing. It's a thing.
Speaker 6: It must be like on the internet somewhere that the
Speaker 6: dog star is serious?
Speaker 3: Is you know a Westy and then that star? It
Speaker 3: just makes more sense the star.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The writer Joan Didion speaks about this, and this is
Speaker 1: pre internet. The writer Joan Didion and slouching towards Bethlehem.
Speaker 1: She talks about how some people cope with how much information.
Speaker 1: There's so much information, and you you face a fork
Speaker 1: in the road where you are interested in the subject,
Speaker 1: let's say like geopolitics, dogs, whatever, economy, economics. You go like, Man,
Speaker 1: I could take the fork that would be to just
Speaker 1: to try to digest and understand all of this information.
Speaker 1: Or I could take the fork where I know a
Speaker 1: little thing that no one else knows. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: really what's going on, And that's a seductive.
Speaker 6: Little fork dogs are aliens.
Speaker 1: That's where you get That's where so many conspiracy theories
Speaker 1: come from. Is you're just it's it's like there's insurmountable
Speaker 1: amounts of information and you're like, yeah, that seems like
Speaker 1: a lot of work. Yeah, I'm buying this dog star deal, yes,
Speaker 1: because that is just easy and then only I know it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, a lot of I get a lot of
Speaker 6: emails thought from dog people who are convinced they have
Speaker 6: it all figured out?
Speaker 1: Like do you call them dog people?
Speaker 6: Dog people?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 6: Keeping keep emailing me, keep emailing me. I have some
Speaker 6: good theories in my inbox.
Speaker 1: Okay, so she doesn't want to hear about dog stars,
Speaker 1: but she doesn't want to hear I'm interesting.
Speaker 6: Give me every thing but dog stars. Yeah it.
Speaker 1: Can you get me a dire wolf skull? Anyhow? Anyway,
Speaker 1: look at three D print?
Speaker 6: You want?
Speaker 1: Really you want? You want to take that? That's the
Speaker 1: best I can do? Yeah, yeah, I could.
Speaker 7: Go in the backyard and dig up some skull.
Speaker 6: We can just give you a wolf skull.
Speaker 1: No, no, I want a three D. If I can
Speaker 1: get one, I'd like to have a three D of
Speaker 1: a of a dire wolf yeah, oh, heads up, speaking
Speaker 1: of that, we have Krin. You haven't seen it yet.
Speaker 1: Hunter Spencer's working on a big octopus holding the gaff.
Speaker 1: So it's an octopus. He's got a gaff and he's
Speaker 1: got some shrimp tucked under his arms. Do a t
Speaker 1: shirt run if you've listened to pussing the pot, which
Speaker 1: is also really good on search.
Speaker 3: Dominate, So hind titty, listen to pot cattle, eat your
Speaker 3: nose whatever this one's.
Speaker 1: Going search all right, Well, thank you for joining, Thank
Speaker 1: you for great man. Yeah, Krin, how long were you
Speaker 1: talking about? Get the real dog expert?
Speaker 8: Like years?
Speaker 1: Dogs hundred? Yeah, he already took his head he's done.
Speaker 7: He's like, she doesn't know nothing about the blue shakes.
Speaker 1: He took his headset off. He's done.
Speaker 3: Any more funny than that, Come on.
Speaker 1: It was a headset drop. All right, thanks everybody.
Speaker 7: Oh r.
Speaker 6: O seal rey sho like silver in the sun. Right
Speaker 6: right alone, sweetheart.
Speaker 9: We don't beat this damn of course today, taking no
Speaker 9: HM and ride away. We're done beat this damned parsday,
Speaker 9: So take a new one and ride on.
Speaker 6: H