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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.

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Speaker 2: You can't predict anything.

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Speaker 1: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 1: for ELP. First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 1: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 1: dot com. F I R S T L I T

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Speaker 1: E dot com fills back everybody. He's got a tall chair.

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Speaker 3: Ope, run camera here. I am now. Yanni's head is

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Speaker 3: in the way of the I'm here.

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Speaker 1: That's all the matters. I'm gonna get to introductions in

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Speaker 1: a minute, but first I got up. So you know,

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Speaker 1: when you see airlines airports being like voted America's favorite airport,

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Speaker 1: all that's a lie. Like the best airport in the

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Speaker 1: world is the Ketchcan Airport. Ketch Can't Alaska small. You

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Speaker 1: can get all the food you want to eat. It's

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Speaker 1: got everything you need. The main thing that I liked

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Speaker 1: about it was that and Ronnie's seen this in the

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Speaker 1: confiscation display, the TSA confiscation display. Since since nine to

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Speaker 1: eleven they have had and they started doing that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. They have had a brass knuckles dagger as

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Speaker 1: the centerpiece of the confiscation display, like a genuine like

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Speaker 1: a trench knife, brass knuckles pointed in a dagger. So

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Speaker 1: I always like to imagine the guy that was, like

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Speaker 1: the guy that was bringing that on.

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Speaker 3: The plane, who do you imagine him?

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Speaker 1: But he's like, oh, you know, one thing I should

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Speaker 1: probably grab is my brass dagger. So they had it

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Speaker 1: and then now it's gone. And I asked him, I said,

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Speaker 1: why is that gone? He says, well now, and then

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Speaker 1: they go and donate all of this stuff and they'll

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Speaker 1: donate it to the Boy Scouts. And I said, there's

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Speaker 1: no way that the Boy Scouts is gonna give out

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Speaker 1: or sell that brass knuckles dagger. So it's just missing. Now,

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Speaker 1: someone somewhere now holds that brass knuckles dagger and it's

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Speaker 1: not going to the boy Scouts, but they'll take it

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Speaker 1: and sell buckets of that stuff, all your leather man's.

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Speaker 1: And the other day my kid lost a bench made

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Speaker 1: folder and he introduced the idea to me over the phone.

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Speaker 1: He was flying with his mom and he tells me,

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Speaker 1: you know that knife that I don't use much anymore,

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Speaker 1: was his way of introing to me that it had

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Speaker 1: been confiscated by TSA. Anyhow, we're going through the catch

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Speaker 1: can line and Seth, we're coming from our fish shack.

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Speaker 1: And as we've talked about a bunch, Seth bought the

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Speaker 1: mold you fallen down fish shack next to our not

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Speaker 1: falling down moldy fish shack. And my little boy, my

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Speaker 1: eight year old, was over hanging out at seths place,

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Speaker 1: and they gave him a sling shot, the old school

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Speaker 1: kind of the wooden handle and surgical rubber. So we're

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Speaker 1: in we're leaving ketch can and he's all been out

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Speaker 1: of shape because he's worried about how he's got the

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Speaker 1: slingshot in his bag. And we're conversing with the TSA

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Speaker 1: guys about what exactly happened to the where the brass

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Speaker 1: knuckle dagger is, and then I'm not buying that. The

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Speaker 1: boy scouts are auctioning it off, and my kid says, listen,

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Speaker 1: I have this slingshot and the guy he gets it out,

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Speaker 1: and the guy holds it and stretches it and says,

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Speaker 1: you're okay, next time, put it in your bag we're

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Speaker 1: gonna let it fly. We fly from Ketchcan to Seattle,

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Speaker 1: and Seattle like, we got to go to Terminal D

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Speaker 1: and we're way far away and they're doing some construction.

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Speaker 1: So we get off the train and normally, it seems

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Speaker 1: to me, normally it doesn't matter what escalator you go up,

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Speaker 1: you wind up where you're trying to get to. But

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Speaker 1: I'm not paying any attention. I'm talking to my kids.

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Speaker 1: And we wind up at baggage claim, which means we

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Speaker 1: have to go back through security. And I'm telling my kids,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand what I did, but we gotta go

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Speaker 1: back to security. Two of them had already thrown out

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Speaker 1: their boarding passes. So anyhow we get we had we

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Speaker 1: get in line and here's the bagpack again, and my

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Speaker 1: kids like, man, I'm super worried about my slingshot. And

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Speaker 1: I watched all the bags go through and that bag

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Speaker 1: stops and somehow that TSA guy is so sharp. There's

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Speaker 1: no metal on this slingshot. It's a wooden handle and

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Speaker 1: surgical tubing. And he snatches that bag out and says,

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Speaker 1: is there a slingshot in his bag? And I said, yup.

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Speaker 1: It blocks my eight year old they said it's fine.

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Speaker 1: They said it's fine, and catch can not fine in

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Speaker 1: Seattle confiscated it. So now there's gonna be some boy

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Speaker 1: scout running around with my kids slingshot and at brand

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Speaker 1: knuckles dagger when I find them.

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Speaker 2: TSA's website addresses this.

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Speaker 4: It says slingshots carry on bags, no checked bags.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Well, the thing I was pointing out to him, and

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Speaker 1: when we were hashing this out is I was saying,

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's it's not a wrist rocket. It's

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Speaker 1: an old schooler. He spent two weeks shooting that slingshot

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Speaker 1: off the deck of art thing, and he was barely

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Speaker 1: clearing the water line.

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Speaker 4: Slingshots, by TSA categorization are the same as yo. Yo's

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Speaker 4: not allowed in your carry on, but they are allowed

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Speaker 4: in check bags because.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna garrett someone with a Yois Garrett? Mean? You

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Speaker 1: know you're watching mobster movies in Peter You're you're the

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Speaker 1: guy in the bag seat kills the guy in the

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Speaker 1: front seat by strangled him.

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Speaker 2: I never heard it called garrett.

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Speaker 1: That's a term. Yeah, I like that. How do you

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Speaker 1: not know that? I just don't.

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Speaker 3: That's gonna help you in a Future Trivia episode.

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Speaker 1: One more thing before we do our intros. This is

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Speaker 1: this is highly unlikely one of my absolute favorite bands

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Speaker 1: of all time, The Brian Jonestown Massacre is coming to

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Speaker 1: town October sec and already hold my tickets for me

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Speaker 1: and my wife. I'm thinking of you guys fish. There's

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Speaker 1: probably no way you guys fish, but if you fish

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Speaker 1: or anything, let me know. I will take you fishing

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Speaker 1: while you're in town. Joy today, Bye, Where do we start? Yannis?

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Speaker 1: Do them all up? Because I gotta look at some stuff.

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Speaker 3: Oh geez, I'm not gonna do a good job. I'm

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Speaker 3: not prepped up for this episode. That well, you're gonna

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Speaker 3: have to do the intros. Big boy, Okay. Brent Reeves

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Speaker 3: is here today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you just hear because you like dogs and you're

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Speaker 1: in town. It's just a happy coincidence. His wife, Alexis

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Speaker 1: is here. How long you guys been married? I think

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Speaker 1: twelve years?

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Speaker 5: She thinks twelve years. I knew you was going to

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Speaker 5: ask this question. We're waiting on the lift at the

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Speaker 5: hotel and she came. She was getting ready, and she

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Speaker 5: walked into where I was sitting, and I said, now

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Speaker 5: we've married, how long.

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Speaker 6: You know you asked me what year we were married?

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Speaker 5: Okay, whatever it was. From now on, just direct all

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Speaker 5: the questions to Mike Atarney.

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Speaker 1: Uh, you're honest. You tell us, of course, Spencer Newhart,

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Speaker 1: Ronnie Bam many time guests, Ronnie Bam are living our

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Speaker 1: our expert on dogs that are living today and what

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Speaker 1: they have going on. And then we have a dire wolf,

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Speaker 1: an ancient dog expert. How do you like to classify yourself?

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Speaker 6: I mean that sounds good.

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Speaker 2: Really, I'll take it.

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Speaker 1: Sure, you know the first question I'm gonna ask you.

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Speaker 1: I don't want you to answer it yet, but I

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Speaker 1: want you to know. The first question I'm gonna ask you is,

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Speaker 1: And I want you to think about this because you

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Speaker 1: guys are gonna you're gonna nitpick this question. Who How

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Speaker 1: long ago did someone have the first pet dog? And

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Speaker 1: I'll define pet like a dog where the owner could

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Speaker 1: at any given time account for where that dog was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I want you to mull that over. You

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Speaker 1: got a good one lined up?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 7: Really?

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Speaker 1: Like it's not it's not well known to science.

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Speaker 7: It's no, it's more in my category.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not in category. You tell me you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna tell me the way that satisfies me. On what

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Speaker 1: continent and in what is today's country, and in what year?

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Speaker 7: And they sent the Messegi's up to the Pharaohs.

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Speaker 6: They put the big old bells on there the pharaohs.

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Speaker 1: Someone had a dog, pet a pet dog way before that.

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Speaker 7: That's just one I could do.

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Speaker 1: You agree right? Don't answer? Yeah, Steve.

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Speaker 7: You also didn't mention her name.

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Speaker 1: Oh I'm sorry, Angela Perry. What are you tell me?

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Speaker 1: Who are you affiliated with?

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Speaker 6: I'm a professor at Texas and University and I work

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Speaker 6: in commercial cultural resource management commercial archaeology as well, helping

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Speaker 6: people manage their heritage aka archaeology.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I got it. Do you interface with a frequent guest?

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Speaker 1: We have David Meltzer who's he's at a different school,

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Speaker 1: But you got interface ever on ancient old stuff.

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Speaker 6: I mean Texas A and M and S m U

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Speaker 6: what we do?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you guys, you guys hate each other.

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Speaker 6: Neither one of us are from Texas, so.

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Speaker 4: We don't care in the same journals.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, we written papers together and I yeah, we

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Speaker 6: wrote a paper about dogs coming to the Americas with people.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how long you've been at Texas, A.

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Speaker 6: And M one year.

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Speaker 1: Where were we at before then?

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Speaker 6: The United Kingdom UK? Doing what archaeology?

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Speaker 1: Did you did you spend time at the Did you

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Speaker 1: spend time at the Ancient DNA place in Oxford?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I work really closely with Gregor Larsen and the Ancient

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Speaker 6: DNA group Oxford.

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Speaker 1: Do you work with Best Shapirol, she's been on the show.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, Beth and I Best on the dire Wolf

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Speaker 6: paper with us. We work together to try to get

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Speaker 6: DNA out of dire wolves. Took a long time.

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Speaker 1: We did it such a little clique.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I got one club.

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Speaker 1: I got one. You can't answer right now and it

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Speaker 1: won't detract from because we won't get into it too

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Speaker 1: much later. We had a big argument. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: the Spencer? No, we had a big argument about what

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Speaker 1: big argument. Spencer wasn't in it. Huh were there ever

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Speaker 1: dire wolves? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I was the one who you know.

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Speaker 1: I got such a bone to pick with you, dude?

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Speaker 1: Were there? But here? Was there ever dire wolves in Alaska?

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Speaker 6: North of the wall? You mean, and there we go?

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Speaker 1: What is that that that takes place in Alaska?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: You know Arctic?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 6: Good question. We the real answer is we aren't sure.

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Speaker 6: So there are a couple possible dire wolves. We have

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Speaker 6: this issue though, that we have dire wolves, we have

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Speaker 6: gray wolves. We also have something called the Bringian wolf

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Speaker 6: now extinct wolf. All of them look very very similar morphologically,

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Speaker 6: bones look very similar. So we have people like me

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Speaker 6: zo archaeologists go through a lot of bones trying to

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Speaker 6: figure out how someone called this a x y Z.

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Speaker 6: I mean not that long ago. I was in the

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Speaker 6: Illinois State Museum where I work a lot, and digging

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Speaker 6: through some boxes. Read about a puppy burial. Digging, digging,

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Speaker 6: Let me find this puppy burial they found in the seventies.

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Speaker 6: Dig it out bobcat, real popcat.

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Speaker 1: So you got to go digging around behind, you got

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Speaker 1: to go digging around behind round. I think they all

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Speaker 1: went to farms. It's like a puppy mass grave.

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Speaker 2: Was that the bobcat that they put like shell necks?

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Speaker 6: I had a necklace on it and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I had a had a cool necklace. It had marine

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Speaker 6: and fresh water pearls on it, and then it had

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Speaker 6: they were carved like two bear canines, but they were

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Speaker 6: like deer long bones, but they've been carved to look

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Speaker 6: like bear canines, really strung up. We found it buried.

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Speaker 6: The photos from the excavation in the seventies like have

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Speaker 6: it laying out in a burial with the necklace clearly round.

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Speaker 6: So they thought like, oh, it must be a dog,

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Speaker 6: must be a puppy.

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Speaker 1: They took so someone had taken deer long bones and

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Speaker 1: carved them to look like barri caneines.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and you were wanted to recognize it.

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Speaker 1: Like fake the earliest fake diamond.

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Speaker 6: I mean it's pretty I mean it's pretty cool. I

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Speaker 6: mean they pulled it out. Listen what we do for

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Speaker 6: zoo archaeology identifying you know, animal remains at archaeological sites.

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Speaker 6: This is not This is a fairly new kind of

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Speaker 6: category of archaeology. Before that, you take your bones that

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Speaker 6: you found, you sent to a biologist or zoologist or

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Speaker 6: something like that, or you just kind of rough it

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Speaker 6: in the field. I'm an archaeologist. I don't know. It

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Speaker 6: looks like it could be a dog. Probably dog. Put

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Speaker 6: it in a box, put it right, puppy burial on

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Speaker 6: the box. Put it away. In forty years, someone will

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Speaker 6: come along, Miss America can tell me what it is bobcatt? Yeah,

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Speaker 6: so it wasn't a mound in Illinois.

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Speaker 7: Is it possible it was a domesticated bobcat?

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Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I think so, Little pet, I don't know.

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Speaker 6: You tell me, can you domesticate a bobcat?

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Speaker 1: Well, no, you can't. You can domesticate a bobcat. A

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Speaker 1: you can't domesticate bobcat cat.

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Speaker 6: You can tame yet a bobcat not domesticated with the

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Speaker 6: definition of domesticated.

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Speaker 1: Well from.

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Speaker 2: Dollars in Alaska? Real quick?

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Speaker 1: Wasn't there a declaration they wanted to hear the bone

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Speaker 1: I have to pick with you.

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Speaker 4: Well a second, wasn't there a declaration made in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty that there were diar wolves found in Asia? Like,

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Speaker 4: wouldn't that imply that they had to get there via Alaska?

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Speaker 6: There was a declaration made.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but it's not not accepted, not yet.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I mean the media jumps the gun. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, the media jumps the gun. Someone will come

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Speaker 1: out with the paper to beat to say, hey, here's

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Speaker 1: the thing that like a thing that would be warrant exploration,

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Speaker 1: and they and then they come up with a headline

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Speaker 1: humans in New World way before previously thought, and then

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Speaker 1: you read it and you going, eh, I mean they

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Speaker 1: got like a date off a thing that probably isn't valid,

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Speaker 1: and they don't include all that in the headline.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we're in the world of like sexy archaeology, right, So, dogs, DNA,

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Speaker 6: peopling of the Americas, all these things get like hot

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Speaker 6: topic headlines.

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Speaker 1: That's why you're here, you know, right exactly.

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Speaker 6: That's why I'm here. Diar wolves in Alaska, who knows.

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Speaker 6: Dire wolves don't seem to like cold weather. They were

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Speaker 6: hanging out a lot in lower latitudes near water. They're

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Speaker 6: into Florida, they're into Texas, they're into southern California with

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Speaker 6: tirees like they're a tires exactly. They're snowbirds. They're not.

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Speaker 6: They don't seem to like the cold weather too much.

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Speaker 6: So been hard to believe. You might have had some

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Speaker 6: that like wandered aimlessly into somewhere north, but they're not

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Speaker 6: like really hanging out there. It's not their place, got it?

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Speaker 1: So in Krin's words, Angela Perry, you might pronounce that correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: is well Krinn messed up. It'd be an archaeologist Krin.

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Speaker 1: Angela Perry is in Krin's words. Archaeologist, Oh, she corrected

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Speaker 1: it is an archaeologist and professor at Texas A and M.

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Speaker 7: Her.

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Speaker 1: Area's expertise include environmental archaeology, got it, zoe archaeology, got it, parasitology.

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Speaker 1: First time ever heard that word? I got it, palaeo ecology,

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Speaker 1: got it. Hunter gathers domestication, adaptation and candids. Also, Ronnie

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Speaker 1: Bame hosts the Honting Dog podcast. Brent Reeves hosts This

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Speaker 1: Country Life on the met Eater Network and often hunts

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Speaker 1: with dogs. We're gonna come back to all that in

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Speaker 1: a minute. Another invitation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, I'm an inspiring dog owner.

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Speaker 1: Really, this is a noe doubt and I'm gonna hit

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Speaker 1: you up on Instagram too. The Butcher of hoy Lake

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Speaker 1: a golfer, so Barons. Here's the headline from Baron's The

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Speaker 1: Butcher of hoy Lake stays patient as he hunts British

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Speaker 1: Open Crown. So there's a there's a golfer, real good

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Speaker 1: at golfing. I see that he uh in all his

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Speaker 1: interviews about golf, and he always talks about hunting. I

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Speaker 1: want to have so I'd like to have you come

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Speaker 1: on the podcast because I feel that golf is the

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Speaker 1: antithesis of hunting. Like you can't get if I looked

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Speaker 1: at a person golfing, a person sitting on a chair

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Speaker 1: reading in a person hunting, and I had to rate him,

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Speaker 1: like who's closest, honey, I would pick the person on

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Speaker 1: the chair because maybe they're reading about hunting. It's like

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Speaker 1: I would love to have Brian Harmon on guy. So

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Speaker 1: there's an invite, Please come on the show. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna, We're gonna dog on you about playing golf

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Speaker 1: and you can defend yourself. Just killed the biggest deer

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Speaker 1: of his life two years ago. Only hunts mature box

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Speaker 1: butcher's his own deer. Nice and won a golfing contest.

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Speaker 3: Real big golfing contest, like a big golfing tournament.

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Speaker 4: There are four majors, Steve, he won the wrong one

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Speaker 4: because this is the only one held outside of the

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Speaker 4: United States. Thus, the European media didn't take a liking

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Speaker 4: to his very American hunting culture. Oh that's how they

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Speaker 4: kind came.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're like the you know they're king, they're

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Speaker 1: king guys used to go hunting, for sure. The current

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Speaker 1: ones the one I think the one that app the

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Speaker 1: one that like, the one that abs gone to do America.

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Speaker 1: I think he used. Yeah, he used to hunt, and

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Speaker 1: I think the one that stayed put used to do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: If you'd go to Brian's Instagram, you wouldn't even know

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Speaker 4: he was a golfer. He looks like a plain old hunter.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, God, please come on the show. Did he

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Speaker 1: come on the show? Krin, You're gonna reach out to him.

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Speaker 8: You're going to reach out to him.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to have him on the show. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's what else is in here? And that's interesting? That's

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Speaker 1: not interesting? Now that it's not interesting, it's all interesting, Crin.

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Speaker 1: It's just I'm just trying to be cognizant of time,

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Speaker 1: and to be honesty, I didn't look at everything that

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Speaker 1: was interesting in the right frame of reference. Oh why

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Speaker 1: did you scratch out why astrology is stupid?

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Speaker 8: Because I didn't think that.

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Speaker 1: That was the most interesting thing.

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Speaker 8: I didn't think that the explanation was.

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Speaker 1: Like, but that great explanation. So guy right saying he

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Speaker 1: knows that I hate astrology, and I think I've talked

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Speaker 1: about making my own twelve signs? Have I told you

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Speaker 1: about that? Like instead of looking up your sign, I'll

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Speaker 1: make up twelve. That'd be like your dad was a

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Speaker 1: drunk and beat you, so you look it up and

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Speaker 1: you'd be like, you'll have you'll have trust issues. You'll

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Speaker 1: have trust issues today, Like you're extraordinarily wealthy, but you

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Speaker 1: inherited all the money, and you can look it up

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Speaker 1: and be like, be an easy day today, but you

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Speaker 1: might feel existential crises. And then it'd be a much

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Speaker 1: more accurate way to find out what's going to happen

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Speaker 1: today than it would be to look at astrology. But

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Speaker 1: this guy was saying. This guy wrote in Why It's

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Speaker 1: All Wrong everyone thinks there's something other than they are,

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Speaker 1: and he explains the Earth currently revolves around the Sun

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Speaker 1: and spins on its axis with a twenty three point

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Speaker 1: five degree tilt that, in conjunction with Earth's rotation around

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Speaker 1: the Sun, gives us the seasons. Got it. This tilt

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Speaker 1: changes wobbles in a formal process called precession. This also

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Speaker 1: affects climate. This matters because thousands of years ago, when

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Speaker 1: astrological signs were defined, the night sky was positionally different

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Speaker 1: than it is now. So when someone says they're are

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Speaker 1: Aquarius or Virgo, or whatever. They're actually off by a month.

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Speaker 1: In that night sky they were referring to via zodias

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Speaker 1: vote via the zodiac sign, so it's not even accurate anyway.

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Speaker 1: So you follow me. So I always run around liking

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Speaker 1: to tell people that I'm Aquarius, I believe, but I'm not.

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Speaker 1: That was interesting, and you made up twelve of those. No, only,

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Speaker 1: I'm just still working on the concept. So I got

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Speaker 1: to find twelve that capture everybody, and then you'll be

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Speaker 1: able to look every morning and I'll tell you a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how the day is going to go. Perfect. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can help me with that. On it, I'm on it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you can help me with the one about criminals

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Speaker 1: that you get it like you're a criminal, and then we

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Speaker 1: can look out and they'll give you some under the

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Speaker 1: sign of handcuffs. Oh we got to do signs too, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the handcuffs signed, the bar shadows from the window,

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Speaker 1: the money sign.

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Speaker 5: The bar shadows from the window are your first clue

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Speaker 5: that you're dreaming?

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Speaker 6: Uh?

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Speaker 1: All right, getting on now, Krein, When do you imagine

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Speaker 1: that we plugged Roundie's project?

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Speaker 8: I was gonna say a little bit later on.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So We're gonna dig right in. Can we save

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Speaker 1: all that stuff? Though? Yeah, normally this had all happen

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes, but feel so cranky about his video

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Speaker 1: that we can't be behind the scenes anymore.

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Speaker 3: Sausage is getting made.

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Speaker 1: We're seeing it. Okay, all right, let's dig in. Now.

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Speaker 1: Have you thought about what my question?

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Speaker 6: Which one?

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Speaker 7: Okay?

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Speaker 1: And this that's a question that's going to require you

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Speaker 1: to is a question that's going to require you to

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Speaker 1: define a bunch of points.

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Speaker 6: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: We lately. When I say lately, I mean in recent years,

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Speaker 1: you see headline after headline after headline as dogs become

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Speaker 1: more popular and more treat people treat dogs more like people.

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Speaker 1: People are infatuated with dogs. You see more and more

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Speaker 1: headlines sort of speculating on when the what is the

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Speaker 1: genesis of dog ownership, What is the genesis of the

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Speaker 1: pet dog? Who first domesticated the dog? When did they

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Speaker 1: domesticate the dog? How was the dog domesticated? So I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to put in a clean question that would let

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Speaker 1: you explore some of these definitions to say who had

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Speaker 1: the first dog, when and where?

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Speaker 6: Generous of you set those questions up for us? Okay, Well,

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Speaker 6: good questions. I think that where we're at in people

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Speaker 6: who are into a dogs is probably that we are

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Speaker 6: we are moving away from just like Neanderthals. You probably

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Speaker 6: had like Meton and Dave talking about this and when

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Speaker 6: they were on before. Are we previously thought like, oh,

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Speaker 6: Neanderthals are these like kind of brutish people who can't

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Speaker 6: figure anything out. More learning that they're doing all these

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Speaker 6: amazing things. And I think around dogs, we've always had

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Speaker 6: this idea that probably it's only recently that we've been

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Speaker 6: doing like training and breeding and very specific stuff, and

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Speaker 6: up until this point, dogs have just been kind of

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Speaker 6: wandering in their own left to their own devices. That's

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Speaker 6: probably not the case. So some of the work we're

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Speaker 6: starting to do now is trying to figure out the

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Speaker 6: genetic lineages of working dogs. You know, when do people

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Speaker 6: really start breeding dogs to be working dogs, birding dogs

434
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 6: or hunting dogs or sled dogs or any of these

435
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 6: kinds of things.

436
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 1: Breedy meaning I'm going to take this one which is great, yeah,

437
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: put it with this one which is great, yeah, and

438
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: hopefully continue this this yeah, continue this like set of

439
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: behaviors or whatever.

440
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 6: Right, So brings tricky, right, because it not only means

441
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 6: you have to put things together, but you have to

442
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 6: keep things apart. Right, So you have some dogs that

443
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 6: you're like, Nope, don't want them, not those aren't the

444
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 6: good ones. We don't want them breeding with the ones

445
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 6: who are good at this. So it takes some forethought,

446
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 6: takes some planning, take some ways to keep them apart

447
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 6: from each other. Right, So we did a pay for

448
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 6: a couple years ago now on some rock art we

449
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 6: found in Saudi Arabia showing people hunting with dogs at

450
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 6: several sites. These dogs had leashes on them, very clearly

451
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 6: le leashed dogs. Some of them were a couple dogs,

452
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 6: some of them like huge groups of dogs. Some of

453
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 6: the dogs were leashed, some of the dogs weren't leashed.

454
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: And this is rock art.

455
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 6: It's rock art, right. And so what's interesting as well,

456
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 6: if you're interested in hunting and how people are using dogs,

457
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 6: is that these are two different locations as well. So

458
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 6: you have one site that's kind of an oasis area

459
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 6: where you clearly are gonna have animals that are coming

460
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 6: up to drink and eat and they're gonna be trying

461
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 6: to ambush prey at a watering hole. And then you

462
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 6: have another location where you also have dog hunting rock art.

463
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 6: That's this kind of narrow escarpment valley where you're clearly

464
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 6: going to be using dogs to like chase hunt animals

465
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 6: into a location where then you're going to kill them.

466
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 6: And the depictions of how they're using dogs and these

467
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 6: two locations are very different.

468
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: Your hand gesture for kill very violent. She stabbed with

469
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: stabbed with both hands at once.

470
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 6: This is what we're doing, right, So.

471
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: She's the first criminal astrological.

472
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 6: So what's interesting about that rocker is that, yeah, we

473
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 6: have leashes, so they're clearly controlling dogs.

474
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: But what you're going to get to when the rock

475
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: art was made.

476
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 6: Yes, so rock art hard to date, but pre Neolithic,

477
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 6: so before the arrival of agriculture, so probably nine to

478
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 6: ten thousand years ago, eight thousand years ago something.

479
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: They were leashed dogs, leashed.

480
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 6: Dogs, leash dogs. What's interesting about this that we notice

481
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 6: is that they're depicting in some places tons of like

482
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 6: twenty thirty forty dogs, groups of dogs with very specific

483
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 6: patterning and very specific like morphotypes of the dogs. So

484
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 6: it almost appears as if they're depicting individual dogs that

485
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 6: are like known to them, you know, they're not just

486
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 6: drawing dog, dog, dog that, Oh, this one has spots here,

487
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 6: this one has a pattern on its chest, here, this

488
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 6: one has this. So you start to get this impression

489
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 6: that very very early on, people are thinking of dogs

490
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 6: as like individuals, and that they're thinking of dogs as

491
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 6: members of the group, members of the hunting party, and

492
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 6: that they're it's not this idea of like just take

493
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 6: the dogs or blindly going out for a hunt, whatever

494
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 6: happens happens, right, that there's planning involved, that there's some

495
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 6: kind of method involved, and that the dogs are individuals

496
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 6: known to them and are in many ways probably equal

497
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 6: members of the hunting group.

498
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: You read a lot into this.

499
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 6: It was my PhD, So maybe I am reading a

500
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 6: lot into it. But I mean they're depicting dogs very

501
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 6: specifically right in some interesting ways. So I would say

502
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 6: probably by that time there's some effort to you know,

503
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 6: control dogs, train dogs, breed dogs, do some some kind

504
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 6: of like and does that lead to a pet? Is

505
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 6: that a pet?

506
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 3: No?

507
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 6: Dogs are interesting because they're kind of like a Swiss

508
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 6: army knife of tools, right, So my interest in dogs

509
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 6: is dogs is technology. Right, They're the first biotechnology. If

510
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 6: we think about all the things that we do with

511
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 6: animals these days in terms of technology, dogs are where

512
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 6: all of that started. Before dogs we dead to everything ourselves.

513
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 6: We had to figure out how to hunt, We had

514
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 6: to figure out how to track things. We had to

515
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,959
Speaker 6: figure out how to do all this ourselves. Dogs are

516
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 6: the first time that we went, oh, wait a minute,

517
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 6: like something else can do this for us? Oh, yeah,

518
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 6: it's better than we are, right right. So you can

519
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 6: use a dog to hunt, You can use a dog

520
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 6: to pull a sled, but you can also use dog

521
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 6: as a bed warmer. You could also use a dog

522
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 6: as emergency food, for source alarm system sanitation around your

523
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 6: camp site. The dog does a lot of things.

524
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: Dog is technology, right, are you hip to the eye

525
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: to the theory? I'm sure you've heard it that dogs

526
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: perhaps self domesticated, meaning here you have these these roving

527
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: bands of hunters or these migratory bands of hunters, and

528
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: they leave a lot of waste, gut piles, carcasses, and

529
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: dogs are just kind of glued to them.

530
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 6: Yeah right, yeah.

531
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: And over time like that as a possible explanation for

532
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: how it came to be, and it wasn't bad to

533
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: have them around. They would alert the you know you

534
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: to the presence of things, and maybe that helps explain

535
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: how it came to be that these two species, yeah,

536
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: develop some sort of symbiosis.

537
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 6: I mean, I think this is probably the kind of

538
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 6: going theory at the moment. It used to be probably

539
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 6: we thought, oh, taking cute wolf pups or something like

540
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 6: that was probably how it happened. But this is unlikely.

541
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 6: It's hard for us to think through the process of

542
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 6: domestication with dogs. They're the first domesticated anything, first domesticated animal, plant, anything,

543
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 6: first concept of domestication is dogs. So prior to dog domestication,

544
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 6: we have no concept of what kind of a domestic sphere, plant,

545
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 6: or animal would look like. Right, So the idea that

546
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 6: people intentionally domesticate a dog without any concept of what

547
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 6: domestication would mean is unlikely.

548
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's a cool point. I never

549
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: thought about that, how they had no plants yet, No,

550
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: not so, Yeah, they were like, I'm gonna do with

551
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: this raccoon like we did with our dog.

552
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: But it's a.

553
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 6: Domino effect after that. Right after the first thing is domesticated,

554
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 6: then they're like, oh shit, look at all these things

555
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 6: out here. But horses, cows, goats, sheep, donkey. I mean,

556
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 6: then they just go for it right. Then after that,

557
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 6: it's just a slew of animals that are domesticated one

558
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 6: after the other, mostly livestock animals, but also domesticating a

559
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 6: dangerous carnivore like that. That's not intentional, right, Why are

560
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 6: you gonna go out take some time? Why are you

561
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 6: gonna go out and be like, you know what I'm

562
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 6: gonna I'm gonna domesticate. I don't know what domestication is,

563
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 6: but this is what we're gonna do. And you know what,

564
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 6: do you know where we're starting. We're not starting with

565
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 6: the juicy horses. We are starting with the wolf. This is,

566
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 6: you know, our dangerous predator competition. Yeah, what you're saying

567
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 6: is more likely, Yeah, it is. It's a it's a wolf.

568
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 6: We you know, you said you had Beth on the

569
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 6: show before. We cannot find have not found the wolf

570
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 6: population from which it comes. Not it's not our gray wolves.

571
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 6: It's a gray wolf ancestor. But whatever lineage dogs come

572
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 6: from that gray wolf ancestor is most likely not with

573
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 6: us anymore extinct, but very closely related to to our

574
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 6: modern gray wolves. They are wolves.

575
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: Though, well, how how many? How many I was gonna

576
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: say how many canines or do we have globally? But

577
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: that's not very helpful because then you get into like

578
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: kit foxes and right, how many if you look, so

579
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: there's an African wild dog, right and you have what's

580
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: that one in in Australia.

581
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: Those are domesticated, right, but they can live without people?

582
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, so dingoes. So dingoes are domesticated dogs that arrive

583
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 6: with the first peoples in Australia and.

584
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: Then oh okay, so they arrived with people.

585
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 6: They arrive and then they're like, we're out of here.

586
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 6: They head off to the outback or wherever in Australia.

587
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 6: So they are far dogs in many ways. But this

588
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 6: is a debate.

589
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: But they're a wolf, yeah, I mean, I mean sorry,

590
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: they are Okay, they're originally from a wolf, right.

591
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 4: Weirdly dingos are classifieds like vulnerable or threatened. Strikes me strange.

592
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 6: It's an interesting debate in Australia right now about dingoes

593
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 6: that you know, some people would like to classify them

594
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 6: as a pest species. They're just a dog that's gone feral.

595
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 6: They're feral dogs. They're destroying everything. But others say, like,

596
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 6: maybe they are a dog, a domesticated dog, but they've

597
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 6: been in many ways rewilded. They've been alone for thousands

598
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 6: and thousands of years, and they effectively act as a

599
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 6: wild animal.

600
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the ancestral Australians arrived there forty thousand.

601
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 6: Years ago, right, they would have not arrived forty thousand

602
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 6: years ago, they would have been there I think five

603
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 6: thousand years the.

604
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: Dog, Yeah, the dog dogs later wave a later.

605
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 6: Wave of people. So, but you know, five thousand years

606
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,719
Speaker 6: kind of hanging out on their own. Also, the New

607
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 6: Guinea singing dog very closely related to dingoes in New Guinea,

608
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 6: totally totally isolated, domesticated dog, but has been isolated alone

609
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 6: for thousands and thousands of functions as a wild animal.

610
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 6: Is a domesticated dog functions as a wild animal?

611
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: When you did anyone, I'm trying to go back real

612
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: deep here for a minute, and then I'm gonna jump

613
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: away into the future. When in the in the during

614
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: the African diaspora, was anybody packing dogs?

615
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 6: No, no, no, no, we don't have So the paper

616
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 6: that I wrote, Dave Meltzer proposed that domestication of dogs

617
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 6: probably happened in Siberia around twenty three thousand years ago.

618
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 6: What we're always missing. When I'm like laying in bed

619
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 6: at night as an archaeologist thinking about dogs, what I

620
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 6: think about is like, why, right, we're hanging out with

621
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 6: wolves for tens of thousands of years the landscape hunting

622
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 6: alongside them, predators just like us, daylight hunters who form

623
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 6: packs to take down animals larger than ourselves. Very very similar.

624
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: We're calling us daylight hunters.

625
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 6: I mean, you could be a nighttime hunter if you want.

626
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: But that's what Yeah, Okay, I just got I didn't

627
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: know if you're talking about you're talking about so humans

628
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: being like daylight pack.

629
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 6: Hunters, very similar to wolves. Right, we have a similar

630
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 6: social structure, we take care of each other as young.

631
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 6: We're very similar to wolves and lots of ways, and

632
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 6: we would have seen and known wolves on the landscape

633
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 6: for tens of thousands of years prior to domestication. So

634
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 6: the question is why, now? What what drives domestication to occur?

635
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 6: So going back to your idea of was it an

636
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 6: accident that they domesticate themselves around that time, and lots

637
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 6: of parts of the world we had pretty crap climate

638
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 6: stuff happening right the LGN, the last Glacial Maximum, not

639
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 6: a nice time to hang out in a lot of

640
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 6: parts of Eurasia. So we have populations of hunter gatherers

641
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 6: wore essentially kind of isolated in Siberia, so they kind

642
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 6: of get stuck there. There's a refugeia of some decent

643
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 6: kind of climate and locations up there, but moving between

644
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 6: that and the rest of your Asia would have been

645
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 6: kind of nasty time, so they kind of isolate up there.

646
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 6: I don't know how long they've been up there, for

647
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 6: thousands of years, though two to nine thousand years they're

648
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 6: hanging up.

649
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: Can I point out that I'm quite envious of those people.

650
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: They got to hunt the woodly rhinoceros right exactly. So

651
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: they're up there, which is just if you're going to

652
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: do something cool, that's about the epitome of coolness.

653
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 6: So they're up there with these populations of animals who

654
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 6: are also up there in this kind of refugium, but

655
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 6: also wolves. Wolves are kind of isolated up there with

656
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 6: them as well, so they become less mobile in this

657
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 6: kind of smaller area than they're used to, And something

658
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 6: like that has to be the driver. There has to

659
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 6: be some reason that dogs become domesticated. And probably, as

660
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 6: you were saying, they're hunting, they're leaving scraps around, and

661
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 6: some group of wolves somewhere decided, you know what, today's

662
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 6: the day. I'm not gonna risk everything and go out

663
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 6: and hunt this deer or wool urine or something like

664
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 6: that on my own. Why would I do that when

665
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 6: it's much easier.

666
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: Scraps, right, competitors too, wouldn't.

667
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: They, right?

668
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's much easy.

669
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 7: One of them scavenged off the other and figured it out. Yeah, right.

670
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 6: And so you know people in Alaska right now, lots

671
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 6: of parts of the world, Russia deal with us all

672
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 6: the time, right, So there are dangerous predators who hang out.

673
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 6: Bears are around, lots of village sce. People don't run

674
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 6: them off anymore. They just learn to live alongside. They're

675
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 6: going through the trash. They're not really bothering anyone. They're

676
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 6: just doing their thing. Humans like, as long as they

677
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 6: don't bother us, we won't bother them. This kind of

678
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 6: like symbiotic relationship of they eat our trash and don't

679
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 6: bother us, that's fine. We could see that happening with

680
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 6: wolves where you know, you butcher some kind of mammoth

681
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 6: or something like that. You take what you want, You

682
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 6: go back to your campsite. You don't really care if

683
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 6: the wolves are scavenging off the leftovers, as long as

684
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 6: they don't bother you, and they're kind of at an

685
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 6: arms distance. Why bother them, right? And so what ends

686
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 6: up happening is that, you know, wolves have culture. Wolves

687
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 6: learn to hunt from their parents and other pac members.

688
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 6: And when you have generations of wolves that have no

689
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 6: longer no longer hunt, right, they're scavengers. Now, then what

690
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 6: do they teach their young to be scavengers? And then

691
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 6: they're young or scavengers And then eventually you have generations

692
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 6: of wolves have never hunted. They only know scavenging, so

693
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 6: going back to a hunting lifestyle is not as easy

694
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 6: for them, and they only know a scavenging lifestyle. And

695
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 6: eventually you kind of narrow that population down to this

696
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 6: population of wolves that are scavengers who are comfortable living

697
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 6: alongside humans. And then that's just like righte for becoming

698
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 6: a dog.

699
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: How long would something like that take?

700
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 6: I mean, would only take a few generations, right to

701
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 6: get wolves that have never hunted before?

702
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah? Not Yeah, well, how did it backfill? See, I

703
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: thought the answer is gonna be different because you're talking

704
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: about these these pre agriculture cave art or rock art.

705
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: Is it is it? Petro? What the hell? Witch is witch?

706
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: Petro?

707
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: And pictol which pitographs or petroglyphs pictographs Aret, that's a

708
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: chiseling noise. Yeah, and this is petroglyphs. So it backfilled.

709
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: It went in reverse, meaning humans were in Saudi Arabia

710
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: long before they were in Siberia. And if the technology

711
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: did I just say, yeah, humans were in Saudi Arabia

712
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: long before they were in Siberia. So if the technology

713
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: emerged in Siberia, it's somehow also yeah, yeah, so like

714
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: it transferred. Yeah, not just the direction that people were

715
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:08,479
Speaker 1: that some people were.

716
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 6: Flowing, it would have dispersed. So if we're right about Siberia,

717
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 6: you have dogs essentially being domesticated there on their own accord.

718
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 6: And then once the lgm's kind of nasty climatic thing

719
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 6: simmers down and we get into the Holo scene, then

720
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 6: people disperse. So the ancestors of Native Americans they make

721
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 6: their way across the Beringian land Bridge into the Americas.

722
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 6: But also that population disperses back down into the rest

723
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 6: of Eurasia and Arabia and everywhere else across the world.

724
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: When those first Americans, whenever I talk about BRINGI hoards

725
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: like to point this out, is that people no one

726
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: and maybe you'll disagree, no one in Siberia woke up

727
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: one day and said, fred, let's go to America. Okay.

728
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: They hadn't been there, they didn't know what was there.

729
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: And I feel that the generations of generations of humans

730
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: would have lived and died in what is now the

731
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: Bearing Sea. Yep, right, you were not. You were moving along,

732
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: and you know some day you go like, let's go

733
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: check the next valley. Oh that's pretty sweet. All the

734
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: stuff there has like no idea what we are, and

735
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: you just kind of walk up and kill it. And

736
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: the next day you're like, let's go over to the

737
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: next valley, no concept of that you're heading anywhere. And

738
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: it was a huge land.

739
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 4: Mass six hundred miles wide, which is as Montana.

740
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so be that that you would have people who

741
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: were born, You would have had people born and died

742
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: on this chunk of ground that's underwater now in the

743
00:40:54,480 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: shallow sea. So if you have a domestication event in Siberia.

744
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 1: By the time people get to what is now Alaska, Yep,

745
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: are their dogs still are? Are Are there dogs still

746
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: making love to the new wolves they're finding in Alaska? Like?

747
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: How are you not constantly updating what the hell of

748
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: dog is by every every like genotype of every genotype

749
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: of this almost like pan.

750
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 2: Global wolf you are.

751
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 6: So we like to say domestication is process, not an event,

752
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 6: because domestication also starts, stops, has dead ends, maybe started

753
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 6: up in other places and then petered out. No, it's

754
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 6: not working. Taming these wolves not working out for us,

755
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 6: and then that that kind of lineage of tamed wolves

756
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,959
Speaker 6: semi possibly domesticated dogs kind of you know Peter's off,

757
00:41:58,280 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 6: these are the ones that worked.

758
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: So when you let's let's say you get to the

759
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: point where we'll just do there's two So there's two

760
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: things I'd like you to get into to help try

761
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: to explain. Eventually you have across north So so you

762
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 1: have the first Americans come in and they very quickly

763
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: just explode southward. And then later you have this wave

764
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: of people who were possibly more Japanese illusion and they

765
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: exploited like marine resources and had composite toolkits for harvesting

766
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: whales and shit, and they come across the north of

767
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: Alaska very different, like very different people had dogs. And

768
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: then so you get to where Stephenson in the early

769
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds is going in like Coronation golf, and he's

770
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: finding people with dogs who have had not had interactions

771
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: with Europeans. A century earlier, you have Lewis and Clark

772
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: come onto the Great Plains and they're finding nomadic bison

773
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: hunters with huge packs of dogs which they're using eating.

774
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: These things look nothing alike. Yep, how is all that happening?

775
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: I mean, because they're not buying dogs from they're not

776
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: buying dogs from Europe.

777
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 6: No where dogs go, people go, So anywhere people went

778
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 6: in America's dogs are going right. And eventually, just like humans,

779
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 6: these groups of dogs breed only with each other, and

780
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 6: eventually you get independent lineages of dogs that are very different.

781
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 6: You know, a dog that you're using as a water

782
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 6: dog ends up looking very different than a dog you're

783
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 6: using to hunt bison, and looks very different than a

784
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 6: dog that you're using to hunt white tail deer and

785
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 6: bore looks very different from a dog that's a sled

786
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 6: dog that's pulling you across the Canadian Arctic, and so

787
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 6: these things can happen fairly rapidly. You're just saying, like,

788
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 6: you know, you want a dog that is good at

789
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 6: being in the water and has a better coat, and

790
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 6: blah blah blah. You just just make it. Just kick

791
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 6: out the ones you don't want out of that line,

792
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 6: and you know you get one that has a really

793
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 6: good coat that you like, you breed that one, and eventually,

794
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 6: you know, you get a dog that does what you

795
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 6: want it to do, is.

796
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 7: Bringing for characteristics, right, characteristics in traits.

797
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, so you know up north they need dogs

798
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 6: that are pulling sleds and have a certain physiology and

799
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 6: have certain types of foot pads that are good for

800
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 6: pulling and certain types of oxygen intake at higher altitudes,

801
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 6: and that's what they breed for. And like the first

802
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 6: i mean the first population of dogs, that initial population

803
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 6: of wolves, if they kind of self domesticated, right, that

804
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 6: population naturally gets cold down, right, Say one of those

805
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 6: wolves decides like, you know what, I'm gonna wander into

806
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 6: that village today and I'm gonna take a little snap.

807
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 6: But a toddler that wolf, it is not in that

808
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 6: population for very long, right, humans make sure like nope, cold,

809
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 6: all right, that guy and his bad attitude are gone

810
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 6: no longer in that population. And it's the same thing

811
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 6: for dogs across the early Americas. You know, this dog sucks,

812
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 6: it doesn't hunt, it's not doing what we want done.

813
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 6: Out of the population, right, has nice fur though, could

814
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 6: you use that?

815
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 7: Right?

816
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 6: So, so you have these dogs being cold and cold

817
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 6: and cold and cold. We're working on a paper now,

818
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 6: cold cold cold, cold, cold cold.

819
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: Pin which you know Danny. We're just up at the

820
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: fish shack and Danny was telling me he saw or

821
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: someone was selling firewood in Alaska. I can't he what

822
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: part where he was, but someone was selling firewood and

823
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: kindling were they just cut to it. It's spelled k

824
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: I n l I n kim, which says killing. They're

825
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: just like, I'm like, you know what, I'm not getting

826
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: the d involved anymore. D's out Kinlin. That's South Alaska.

827
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: G Yeah, he says it's k I N l I N.

828
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: He knew exactly what they were talking about. Saved on

829
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: paint on the sign anyways, go ahead, yeah, so.

830
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 6: Cold cold cold, Yeah, I mean, you know.

831
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 7: I mean, I honestly think somebody should explain cold because

832
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 7: I bet you a lot of people don't really know.

833
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 6: Go ahead, are you volunteering, Well, tell us you're the archaeologist.

834
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 7: But I know more about culling. Probably it's the process

835
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 7: of taking something that's not desirable and killing it as

836
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 7: it and usually in its infant stage. You don't usually

837
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 7: wait till they're find out if they're two years old

838
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 7: and they're practical to use. That process has been done

839
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 7: with domestic dogs for years because you could see if

840
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 7: you're looking for a standard size or a standard coat,

841
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 7: and you'll see puppy differences and be like, oh wow,

842
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 7: that one's tiny.

843
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: You know that just because it's a resource thing, right,

844
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 1: It's like.

845
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 7: We're only going to have the feet eight of them

846
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 7: if everything works out right. And that one that's really big.

847
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 7: That reminds me of the dog that the neighbor had

848
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 7: from twenty years ago, the one that was killing things.

849
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 7: Big ones out. So they try to keep it to

850
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 7: a standard basically, And I'm sure they did that back

851
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 7: in the day. You know, they they could tell. And

852
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 7: the neat thing about those people are they would have

853
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 7: kept those dogs around to observe them as they're growing up,

854
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 7: because dogs are like kids, but they grow up in

855
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 7: twelve months kind of. So you might see that behavior

856
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 7: of a really aggressive one it's six months and they

857
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 7: would probably still call it there because they still want

858
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 7: the milder temperament dog, you know. They so yeah, but

859
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 7: I just didn't I know you were saying that, and

860
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 7: I wanted people to like, we're talking about yeah, selective breeding.

861
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 7: It's a selective killing.

862
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

863
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 7: Uh.

864
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: In France's Apartment's the Oregon Trail. So there's a historian

865
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: named France's Apartment and he wrote one of the He

866
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: wrote what would become one of the early definitive histories

867
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: of the French and Indian War. He had, you know,

868
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: what was the disease that you send everybody out west?

869
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: The doctors has head like go to an arid climate,

870
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: go to an arid climate, TV something like that. So

871
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: he went out and I think it was an eighteen

872
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: thirty four France's Apartment, went out onto the Great Plains

873
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: and then later wrote a book called The Oregon Trail.

874
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: They think that he was he was probably so he

875
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: spent a bunch of time with you, Aglala Sue was

876
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: probably in Crazy Horses camp when Crazy Horse was thirteen

877
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: years old. He one day goes into I think he

878
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: goes into a trading post and Laramie, wy what's now Laramie, Wyoming.

879
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: I think he was in Laramie and he's invited to

880
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 1: dinner in a Sioue Famili's So in Aglala Sue family's tepee,

881
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: he's invited to dinner. All their puppies are in the teepee. Okay,

882
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: so you've hit a level of familiarity and care where

883
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:32,919
Speaker 1: the female dog is nursing her puppies inside.

884
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 7: Like the first house dog.

885
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, which, like so it paints a picture, right, I

886
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: mean you have it's like it's it's not a huge space,

887
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: but you're giving that space as litter of puppies, which

888
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: demonstrates this level of familiarity and care. But here's Francis Parton.

889
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: He's a he's a guest. A woman goes over sorts

890
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: through that little collection of puppies that is inside the teepee,

891
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 1: thumps one in the head and cooks it for him.

892
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: So it's like this real you know what I mean.

893
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's like this real collision of two.

894
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: It's a collision of two attitudes about dogs. It's really interesting. Right, Well,

895
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: they're inside, right, We're gonna take care of them and

896
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: make sure that whatever nothing kills all the puppies. But

897
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: but I mean, come on, dog is good. Yeah, I

898
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: mean yeah, So like these, you know, you get these

899
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: glimpses into these very complicated these these like complicated contradictory relationships. Yeah.

900
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 6: I mean, some of the sites that I was working

901
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 6: on for my when I was writing my dissertation were

902
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 6: super interesting because you have clearly hunting camps together, sites

903
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 6: where you have elaborate burials of dogs which must be

904
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 6: hunting dogs, are bearing them with hunting implements and red

905
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,959
Speaker 6: deer antlers and very elaborate points and things like that,

906
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,919
Speaker 6: and with covered with red ochre and really in these

907
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 6: like very elaborate burials, it looks just like a human burial.

908
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 6: By the next door, you got a bunch of butcher

909
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 6: dogs that they've clearly been eating in the trash pile.

910
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 7: Right.

911
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 6: So there you clearly have these like camp, same camp,

912
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 6: same camp. So you have dogs that are you know,

913
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 6: and we probably have that a version of that, we're

914
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 6: not butchering them and throwing them a trash pile. But

915
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 6: we have versions of this right where we have you know,

916
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 6: if you're a hunter and you have hunting dogs, and

917
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 6: you've got that like prized hunting dogs, and then you

918
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 6: got the kind of you know, someone was telling me

919
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 6: in a bar yesterday at Ted's we had this German

920
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 6: shorthaird pointer like great hopes for it scared scared of guns.

921
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,879
Speaker 6: Now it's a couch potato, right, it's not. But then

922
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 6: they have another dog that's just like an amazing hunting dog.

923
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 6: So you know, you get this these levels also of

924
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 6: you know where that dog falls in the pack, and

925
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 6: we think, you know, as an archaeologist, I think about

926
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 6: humans as another animal on the landscape. We're just another

927
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 6: animal the landscape, and a dog is our greatest technology.

928
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 6: If you're a hunter gather and you're using dogs for hunting,

929
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 6: and in many ways, if you're a hunter gather, you know,

930
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 6: ten thousand years ago, a dog is much more valuable

931
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 6: to you than another human hunter. Right, So when I

932
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 6: was hunting boar in Japan, we would enter these dense,

933
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 6: dense forests. No way we're going to track a boar,

934
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 6: but the dogs.

935
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: Right when you're talking about you. Yeah, okay, so tell

936
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: me about this now.

937
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 6: So part of my PhD where I was in Japan

938
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 6: working with hunters and hunters in Japan trying to see

939
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 6: how they use their dogs to bar there in some

940
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 6: of these really really dense forests. You know, you can't

941
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 6: see two feet in front of you because the forests

942
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 6: are so dense, And the rise of hunting dogs in

943
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 6: our kind of archaeological pass is most likely tied to

944
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 6: the beginning of the Holocene period somewhere between ten and

945
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 6: twelve thousand years ago, when we kind of move out

946
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 6: of this time of having more open forests and polar

947
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 6: tundras and the deciduous forests start coming into the northern latitudes,

948
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 6: and forests start getting really really dense, and the animals

949
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 6: move from these huge megafauna you know, mammoth and masdons

950
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 6: that we see out on an open plane, to like

951
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 6: super fast white tailed deer and boor who a moving

952
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 6: through a dark dense forest?

953
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 7: Right, got it?

954
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 6: We're humans. We're not usually tracking a white tailed deer

955
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 6: through a dark dense forest.

956
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: Can I throw something into that?

957
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 6: You tell me?

958
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: I think that you're also starting to see that they've

959
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: had that your people are living in encountering animals that

960
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: have had more experience with humans, right, Yeah, I mean

961
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: I've brought this up before, but there was a time

962
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: when there was the first person. I don't know who

963
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: he was, I'd love to meet him. There was the

964
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 1: first person that ever saw a rattlesnake, and that person

965
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 1: had lived hundreds of generations in the absence of venomous

966
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: snakes yep. Or there was the first man. There was

967
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: the first person that ever walked up to a mastadon,

968
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: and the masdon maybe just stood there. Yeah, because aland

969
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: doesn't seem that big. What's it doing? Right? And then

970
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: after a while you get where stuff has kind of

971
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: a has a different attitude, and you might be looking

972
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: for new ways of dealing with these new attitudes. Ye,

973
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: but we're anywhere they catch a smell on the wind

974
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,320
Speaker 1: and they're gone, Yeah, yeah.

975
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 6: But we're also dealing with that.

976
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:36,439
Speaker 3: Right.

977
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 6: So, generations before you were Macedon hunters on open planes.

978
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 6: Every technology you built was for that. Everything you've taught

979
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 6: generations after you is for how you go hunt a

980
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 6: macedon on an open plane. Now you have dense forests

981
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,439
Speaker 6: coming in quickly, pray species are changing. They're becoming these

982
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 6: kind of mezso prey species, smaller, medium sized prices. Is

983
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 6: very very quick and moving through a dense forest. That

984
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 6: takes a different type of hunting, different types of tools,

985
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 6: different types of technology. Dogs are really good at that.

986
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 1: I had no idea they hunted boars with dogs in Japan. Yeah,

987
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: so what happened when you went? How did it go?

988
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 6: I mean the dogs? The dogs do most of it, right, Yeah,

989
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 6: I mean so it was interesting. I love debates about

990
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 6: about hunting with dogs, modern hunting with dogs, because when

991
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,839
Speaker 6: I talk to hunters who don't use dogs, not for

992
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 6: like birding or something like that, but hunting deer, boar

993
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 6: or something like that, they say, there's no sport to

994
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 6: it hunting with dogs. Sheeting, right, it's too easy. It's

995
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 6: too easy. If your hunter gather ten thousand years ago.

996
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 6: It's exactly what you want you want it to be.

997
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 6: It's not a sport subsistence hunting, you know.

998
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: But even out, I mean, this is a subject for

999
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: a different thing.

1000
00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 7: I would love.

1001
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:59,959
Speaker 1: I would love the debate with one of these people.

1002
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: How it's not easy, because the thing I always like

1003
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 1: to bring out to people is if you could measure

1004
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 1: hunting knowledge and like bits the way you might measure

1005
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: information in your computer in a drive to successfully use dogs,

1006
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: meaning selecting, breeding, caring for training, someone who can effectively

1007
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: use a dog to get a big game animal. It

1008
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: holds more bits of holds vastly more bits of information

1009
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: in their head than is required to shoot a deer

1010
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: coming into an egg field. It's just like you might

1011
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: find one to be more fun or less fun. But

1012
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: don't get into me this idea that it's easier or

1013
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: cheating to pull that off, because that's not easy to

1014
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: pull off. That takes lifetimes of dedication. You might like,

1015
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 1: you might have other problems with it, but the easy

1016
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 1: thing come on. So it's is not true.

1017
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 6: I debate this a lot with a colleague of mine,

1018
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 6: Jeremy Coster. He's a professor at Cincinnati and he works

1019
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 6: with indigenous mosquito on my Younga people hunting in Nicaragua

1020
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 6: and Jeremy Coster mosquito in Myyungna. So in Nicaragua where

1021
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 6: they're they're horticulturalists, but they still the primary meat is

1022
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 6: coming from subsistence hunting in these like neotropical forests, pretty

1023
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 6: pretty dense kind of tropical forests, and so we debate

1024
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 6: a lot about they use hunting dogs there. Their dogs

1025
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 6: are not really trained. It's they come out one they

1026
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 6: might get killed by a jaguar. Some ways, that's good

1027
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 6: for you because it's killing your dog is not killing you,

1028
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 6: so that's all right. But a lot of them get

1029
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 6: lost to jaguars or snake bites. A lot of them

1030
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 6: are just clearly not up for it. But then you

1031
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 6: get some small population of dogs who are really good

1032
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 6: at it and then teach other dogs. But there he

1033
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 6: he does a lot of calculations of tracking, cost benefit

1034
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 6: analyzes of using dogs and return rates using dogs versus

1035
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 6: not using dogs. The issue there is he's got a

1036
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 6: dense forest and he's got probably twenty or thirty animals

1037
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 6: in that forest that that dog could go after. And

1038
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 6: you don't know when your dog goes off and it's

1039
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 6: barking and it's gone, if it's going after a forest

1040
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 6: rat or a brocket deer. And you have to debate

1041
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 6: whether the time lost in tracking down your dog for

1042
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 6: four hours if it caught a rat, is worth it,

1043
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 6: right or does it have a deer And you don't

1044
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 6: know right, so you can lose a lot of time

1045
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 6: and an environment like that. If you're a hunter gather

1046
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 6: in a forest in northern US or Germany or the UK,

1047
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 6: your idea of what your dog is going after is

1048
00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 6: a much smaller breadth of praise species. Right, So you

1049
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 6: could have thirty things, of which twenty five you don't

1050
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 6: care about, or you could have a force in which

1051
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 6: if your dog's going after something, it's probably something you

1052
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 6: want to kill an eat.

1053
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: Right, John, he's got it narrow down to one thing.

1054
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 3: Well, I'm trying to truest to chase mountain lions and bobcats, raccoons.

1055
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: All three things. Never mind, he's got narrowed down three things.

1056
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 3: But there has been a lot of narrowing down, you know,

1057
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 3: a lot of teaching him what not to chase.

1058
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 6: Right, And how much time does that take? Kind of

1059
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 6: effort does it take.

1060
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 3: We're not done. We're three years in roughly. Yeah, lots

1061
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:44,439
Speaker 3: of time.

1062
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 6: This is the debate of like, as an ancient hunter gatherer,

1063
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 6: spending three years training a dog. Probably not. It's probably

1064
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 6: a game of nope, nope, nope, Oh, this one's all right,

1065
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 6: all right.

1066
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 1: He gets the red ocre the red, Yeah, exactly exactly.

1067
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 6: So you know, this is the this is the bait

1068
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 6: we have. Do we breed the good one with another

1069
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 6: good one from the village next door, produce some good pups.

1070
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 6: Then you go from there. That litter produces eight pups.

1071
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 6: Of those eight pups, six of them duds, two of them.

1072
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: All right, I need to I want to just really

1073
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: quickly get back to this Japanese thing. How many how

1074
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: many bores did you guys get?

1075
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 6: We got? Well we went out for weeks, so.

1076
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: Oh so you're really putting some time into it.

1077
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1078
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're tracking. We had GPS callers on the dogs

1079
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 6: trying to track, like where they went, how long it

1080
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 6: took them.

1081
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: They have chase dogs and catch dogs.

1082
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 6: The chase dogs were the catch dogs there.

1083
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 1: So they track it and hold it down.

1084
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, track and hold. They have the full vests and everything.

1085
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 6: Though those boar aren't messing around.

1086
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 1: So then they come in and kill with a knife.

1087
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1088
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 6: I mean so basically this is what we did. We

1089
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 6: get to the edge of the forest, right, super dense,

1090
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 6: and I'm thinking, how we look for the tree that

1091
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 6: has you know, the rubbing on it, Like, okay, there

1092
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 6: there's somewhere. Dogs sniffs the tree looks at us. All right,

1093
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 6: we'll go he's got the scent. There they go, tracking

1094
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 6: them on GPS callers, where are they going? You can

1095
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 6: hear them, they're they're barking to each other, tracking each

1096
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 6: other where they're going. You can you can hear them

1097
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 6: going up the mountain. You can kind of hear where

1098
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 6: where the barks are coming. And you can hear when

1099
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 6: they get the scent that they're close, because then they're barking.

1100
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 6: Really you know, it's increasing. And then you can tell

1101
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 6: when they got them. You know they're doing that that.

1102
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 8: Go go.

1103
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 6: And then you're just like, all right, here's where the

1104
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 6: humans step in and we do the real hard work,

1105
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 6: right we so we track them down and then kill them. Right,

1106
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 6: But this is an interest.

1107
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: So did you take a real like into that or

1108
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: was just work for you?

1109
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 6: I mean, it's it's fun, right, It's interesting to see

1110
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 6: the process. I'm an oargist. I see the dead animals

1111
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 6: on the ground, right, I need to know how does

1112
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 6: this work in reality? How you know? What are I

1113
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 6: try to think through? How what are the places that

1114
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 6: things go wrong? Where does the path split in a hunt?

1115
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 6: Where a choice could go this way or this way?

1116
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 6: You know, a lot of people in archaeology talk about

1117
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 6: hunter choice, hunter prey choice, and what we decide to do,

1118
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 6: what we decided not to do. But when I've been

1119
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 6: hunting with dogs, we're not the ones who decide what

1120
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 6: animal you go after. We're the ones to decide if

1121
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 6: you kill it or not, but we're not the ones

1122
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 6: deciding on animal you go after. So when we talk

1123
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 6: about you know, humans in the past ten thousand years

1124
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 6: ago always killed males or females, or ones this size

1125
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 6: or ones over here. A lot of that if you're

1126
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,959
Speaker 6: using a dog to hunt, was decided by the dog.

1127
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 6: We decide whether you kill it or not, but prey

1128
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 6: choice is largely decided by what animal the dog goes after.

1129
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 6: And so you know, we they're lily going after females

1130
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 6: with young, regularly going after males that are running or

1131
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 6: on their own, sick, old, injured. You know, these are

1132
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 6: the animals that that dogs are going after, over and

1133
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 6: over and over.

1134
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. You might find tune it.

1135
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: You might find tune it on species, but it's pretty

1136
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 1: hard to find tune it on. Go get me a big.

1137
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 4: Male, Yeah, go get the big one.

1138
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 3: Go ahead.

1139
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 4: Have you ever found any crossover of ancient cultures that

1140
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 4: used falcons and dogs.

1141
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I worked in Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan, they're using

1142
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 6: birds of prey, dogs and horses. It's a three prong approach, right.

1143
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 2: And how old do you think that? Like three prong approach.

1144
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:53,919
Speaker 6: Is pretty old? I mean horse domestication. Trying to track

1145
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 6: down right now, exactly when horse domestication happened in Central

1146
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 6: Asia somewhere most likely, but yeah, thousands and thousands of

1147
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 6: years ago. So it was interesting in Kazakhstan. Problem for

1148
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 6: me is an archaeologist to use his ancient DNA.

1149
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 9: You know.

1150
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 6: When I was in Kazakhstan, I would talk to the

1151
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 6: local people who are still hunting with falcons and horses

1152
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 6: and dogs. And I was in a tiny, tiny little

1153
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 6: museum in the middle of nowhere, and I saw this

1154
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 6: picture of hunters and they had their horses, they had

1155
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 6: their falcons, and they had their dogs, and they had

1156
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 6: two wolf pups. So Kazakhstan has one of the largest

1157
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 6: wolf populations in the world. You don't really think about

1158
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 6: Kazakhstan being a place where tons of wolves. There they

1159
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 6: had these two live wolf pups and I was asking

1160
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 6: them the guy that we.

1161
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: Were with, and then the painting, the wolf puffs looked

1162
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 1: different than the dogs.

1163
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're clearly wolf. I mean it's a photo. It

1164
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 6: was a it was a black white photo. So they

1165
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 6: had these two live wolf pups that they'd tracked. They'd

1166
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 6: been on horses with their falcons and their dogs and

1167
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 6: they'd tracked these two wolf puffs and they caught them live, right,

1168
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 6: And so I said to them what are they why?

1169
01:04:59,280 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: Why?

1170
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 6: At first, well, why are they going after wolves? And

1171
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 6: what are they going to do with them live? I said, Oh,

1172
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 6: they'll breed them to their dogs.

1173
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: Oh, put a little extra pap in them.

1174
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 6: And I was like, I was like, what are they

1175
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 6: tell me more? And I said, well, you breed your

1176
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 6: dogs with wolves to fight off the wolves. You know,

1177
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 6: I'm an archaeologist though, and I'm thinking, you know, we

1178
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 6: study ancient DNA try to figure out, you know, the

1179
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 6: genetics of dogs, and I'm.

1180
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: Thinking, what night, Yeah, like the fag that is still happening.

1181
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 6: Right, No, it's still happening. It's happening all the time.

1182
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 1: They're creating all kinds of noise.

1183
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, they're introducing like local wolf genetics into dogs

1184
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 6: and this happens. Ever, happens all over the place. Right.

1185
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 6: So there's a dog breed call a sar loose that

1186
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 6: genetically looks like an ancient dog. I love talking about

1187
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 6: people about ancient breeds, ancient dogs and why they look ancient.

1188
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 6: And this looks like an ancient dog, but it's not.

1189
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 6: It's a recent breed about fifty years old. That they

1190
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 6: just took a wolf in a zoo in Germany and

1191
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 6: bred it with German shepherds something like that and created

1192
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 6: this sar loose. Probably you look.

1193
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 1: At it, and you're looking at I think even genetically.

1194
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 6: Genetically because it's genetics. Are a wolf wolf genetics?

1195
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 1: Right? And so it turned up that bone and a

1196
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: hole in the ground, It would have threw you off.

1197
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 6: Bad news, badness, right, So you might get a dog

1198
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 6: that looks ancient. Oh man, this is ancient.

1199
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 3: When you say it looks ancient, you're talking about what

1200
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:31,919
Speaker 3: you see in the DNA.

1201
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 6: Like genetically, but also morphologically, I mean, because a dog

1202
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 6: that has recent ancestry of a wolf is gonna morphologically

1203
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 6: look probably a lot like a wolf. But you know,

1204
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 6: we we think what happened with dogs and the reason

1205
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 6: why no one can sort out your question of like why, when, how,

1206
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 6: where when did this all happen? It's probably because dogs,

1207
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 6: if they're domesticated in somewhere like Siberia, they're coming back down.

1208
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 6: They're coming back down with human populations into Eurasia via

1209
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 6: different right. And of course as they're coming down, they're

1210
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 6: interbreeding with Asian wolves and European wolves and wolves in Germany,

1211
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 6: wolves everywhere, right, And so then they end up looking

1212
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 6: all of them end up looking ancient, but with independent

1213
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 6: local wolf populations being kind of blended in there. And

1214
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 6: so for us genetically and morphologically, it's a nightmare because

1215
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 6: they all look old because they've got these local wolf

1216
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 6: populations being bred into them, these local ancient, local, ancient, local, modern, local,

1217
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 6: historic like wolves and dogs. If you leave a dog out,

1218
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 6: they're gonna hang out with wolves, right, they'll either be

1219
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 6: killed or they'll hang out with wolves. And I mean,

1220
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 6: canids love to interbreed, love to interbreed with each other.

1221
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 6: We had some from a site in Illinois that's one

1222
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 6: of the used to be the oldest dogs in the Americas,

1223
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 6: and we had two sites right next to each other,

1224
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 6: overlapped in time. But the dogs look very different. Morphologed.

1225
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 6: We had these one dogs that the one site had

1226
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 6: these really robust dogs, and then the site twenty kilometers

1227
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 6: away the dogs are much more like grass aisles, so

1228
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 6: kind of thinner, more thin bone dogs. And we were like,

1229
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 6: this is the same time period. They're twenty kilometers away

1230
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 6: from each other. That's strange that they would have that

1231
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 6: much variation. We did the genetics of the kind of

1232
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 6: grass style thin dogs and they were Koi dogs, but

1233
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 6: they were buried. They were buried. They're in burials with

1234
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 6: grave goods, but they had very recent coyote ancestry.

1235
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 1: And they were some fashion esteemed or cherished because they

1236
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: had a proper burial.

1237
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:42,759
Speaker 6: They had proper burials, are probably being used for hunting.

1238
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 6: But like, I don't know much about what a koid

1239
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 6: how you live with the koi dog, but maybe you

1240
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 6: guys you know about koy dogs.

1241
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: I kid yesterday and he was telling me all about

1242
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 1: what you need to do if you want to have

1243
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 1: a pet coyote.

1244
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 6: Okay, right, exactly.

1245
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,640
Speaker 1: So, which presumably he learned on YouTube.

1246
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 3: Catch a Crayfish.

1247
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 1: Tell me like all the ins and outs of having

1248
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,759
Speaker 1: pet kyotes, And I was just kind of have listened

1249
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 1: to what he was telling.

1250
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 7: Me, I gotta throw something in so Yanna. You might

1251
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:14,799
Speaker 7: be familiar with the name Delmar Smith with dog training,

1252
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 7: maybe Brent. He's he's from Oklahoma, probably one of the

1253
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 7: most famous dog trainers horse person that you've ever met.

1254
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 7: And he had kyote pups around the farm when he

1255
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 7: was a kid. And I did an interview with him,

1256
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 7: I don't know, six seven years ago, and he just

1257
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 7: looks at me. He said, wrong, I can take kyle

1258
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:38,120
Speaker 7: pup and teach him what your pointer knows. It's on audio.

1259
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:41,720
Speaker 7: So I didn't know about that they could breathe with them,

1260
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 7: but I do know that they could be trained up

1261
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 7: pretty good.

1262
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:45,439
Speaker 1: You know.

1263
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 6: There you go.

1264
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:49,679
Speaker 3: Before we move on, though, I it's one more question

1265
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 3: about Japan. What were those dogs like like will be

1266
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 3: to be similar to breedwise, so they were all.

1267
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 6: Over the place. So we had some hardcore guys that

1268
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 6: had shiba you been you like local Japanese hunting dogs

1269
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 6: dog yaba in you So they got the little curly tail,

1270
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 6: they have a fox like kind of face dog. So

1271
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 6: Japan's interesting because they got all sorts of really interesting

1272
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 6: specialized dogs.

1273
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 2: Can I I have a trivia question planned for Angela

1274
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 2: coming up.

1275
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 1: I got a bone to pick with you.

1276
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,639
Speaker 2: Okay, say too much?

1277
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 4: Can she talk about this when we get on the

1278
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:31,919
Speaker 4: trivia show.

1279
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 1: She's already given the answer to the bone.

1280
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 4: Not not yet. But I'm worried. I'm worried she's approaching

1281
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:40,680
Speaker 4: that territory. So I think we should just leave it

1282
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:41,839
Speaker 4: until trivia.

1283
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: Should I pick my bone with yeah?

1284
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 3: Now or later, Tavia, if it's a trivia bone.

1285
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 1: Trivia bone, okay. Oh you know what I did that? Uh,

1286
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 1: when we had that tent, say, on the parking lot,

1287
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 1: I met this family. Memerel's gonna tell you the story.

1288
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,639
Speaker 1: I sent you that picture, that little mountain man trophy,

1289
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 1: and I said, I'll tell you later. I never told you.

1290
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: So there's this family and they do They've made their

1291
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: own trivia tournament out of your trivia show.

1292
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 2: I'm worried about what you may have done, but carry on.

1293
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 7: Well.

1294
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: I ran up in the office and game one of

1295
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 1: the trivia game.

1296
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, a prototype that was not ready for the market.

1297
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,639
Speaker 4: But that's okay. Now one's just out there in the world.

1298
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 1: I said, listen, I'm gonna give this to you. Don't

1299
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: show anybody, especially anybody that works here. Uh huh oh, no,

1300
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 1: like five people came up to me. You gave that

1301
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: guy that trivia?

1302
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 2: I'd heard from five people.

1303
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: I told him very clearly, put in your bag. You

1304
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:35,759
Speaker 1: don't show anybody.

1305
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:37,800
Speaker 4: Yes, and I had heard from five people that some

1306
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:39,599
Speaker 4: family was walking around on the board game. I was like, well,

1307
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 4: that's not possible.

1308
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: I show he went on to show everybody. I said

1309
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:46,879
Speaker 1: that the show perfect.

1310
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 2: I'll pick my bone and she will talk about her Japanese.

1311
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 1: He's gonna continue his line. Question yep.

1312
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 6: To answer your question, there are some local dogs and

1313
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:05,679
Speaker 6: some European like bloodhound type dogs. So that's a Mexico.

1314
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 2: That's all she can say for now.

1315
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 1: Oh, because it's right, because the bone, the.

1316
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 2: She may just give it away to everyone in the room.

1317
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 2: It would be at your advantage to just wait about

1318
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 2: an hour.

1319
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 8: Got it.

1320
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:22,760
Speaker 1: There's a Scottish woman that has an album called Bones.

1321
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 1: You have thrown me in blood I have spilled, which

1322
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 1: we should work into the show. Okay, here here can

1323
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 1: we switch the wolves from it? But I know, so

1324
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: you're ancient dog, but that means categorically that you're interested

1325
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: in wolves. What is the term trying to get how

1326
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: to set this up when we now look at the

1327
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 1: wolf landscape. Okay, we talked about what we have, the

1328
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 1: Mexican gray wolf, right, and then that wolf ends at

1329
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: what highway?

1330
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:50,240
Speaker 7: Is it?

1331
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 1: There's a highway that it ends at. It'd be like

1332
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 1: if a mule deer crosses, if a meal deer crosses

1333
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:01,959
Speaker 1: the I five quarter or he becomes a Columbia blacktail

1334
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 1: in certain places, so he can go back and forth

1335
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,599
Speaker 1: all day long. And there's if Ossiola turkey walks across

1336
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:10,439
Speaker 1: a certain road, he becomes an eastern turkey. Right, And

1337
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 1: we have these little divisions, but this one actually has

1338
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: teeth because from a legal perspective in terms of how

1339
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 1: it's manageding like experimental species and danger species. There's a line,

1340
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:23,680
Speaker 1: there's a highway. There was an eye forty. I don't know.

1341
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: There's there's a highway at which a Mexican gray wolf

1342
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 1: ceases to be a Mexican gray wolf across to some highway.

1343
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 1: It's been pointed out to me, and I can't remember

1344
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: the word they use. That all this is nonsense that

1345
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 1: you had like that, Yes, there were wolves in Mexico,

1346
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 1: but as you road north, you never left wolfland. It's

1347
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: just you would gradually see different morphological types. Meaning in

1348
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 1: the desert southwest there's wolves running around slightly different college

1349
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: generally smaller. You'd go north and they might get bigger

1350
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 1: and grayer, and you'd go north yet and they get

1351
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: bigger still. And then you go north yet and they

1352
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: might get smaller and wider, and then you roll into

1353
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,679
Speaker 1: you'd like roll into Siberia and it's like a little

1354
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 1: bit different yet, but you never you never crossed the

1355
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: line at which they're not interacting and what's the word

1356
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 1: I'm looking for.

1357
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 6: I don't know where you're looking for.

1358
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 1: But they were a continuous blank. Yeah, they were.

1359
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 7: Like you think, like a monoculture of a Yeah, it

1360
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 7: was like that.

1361
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:38,800
Speaker 1: All you could later go in and make like these

1362
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 1: distinctions and these arbitrary lines at which they changed, but

1363
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 1: they were just all there, all interacting, all breeding, and

1364
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 1: you would just see different demonstrations different like pheno.

1365
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:57,679
Speaker 6: Tisenotypes or morphotypes. So you would not have ever gone

1366
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 6: anywhere and not seen wolves. If you're an ancient hunter gather,

1367
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:03,720
Speaker 6: there would have been wolves everywhere, I think, and all

1368
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 6: these wolves can interbreed with each other. They're all canis

1369
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 6: sloopis of some of some description they had. Uh yeah, yeah,

1370
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 6: I mean, well, if you took a wolf from North

1371
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,680
Speaker 6: America and you moved it to Eurasia, maybe they're all

1372
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 6: Canus loopists. They could interbreed, and the wolves that are

1373
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 6: here now came from You know, when you say why

1374
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 6: people were living and dying on Burringia, that's true. Why

1375
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,160
Speaker 6: did they make it that way? Well you have animals,

1376
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:34,720
Speaker 6: tons of animals moving into the Americas, So you have

1377
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 6: a concert migration of animals moving through Bringian land Bridge.

1378
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 6: So probably people are following animals. You know, people didn't

1379
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 6: just wake up one day and say like go east, right,

1380
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:49,759
Speaker 6: They're probably following herds of animals, both predators and prey

1381
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 6: that are moving you know, their way into there, including wolves.

1382
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 1: Well you know who's brand new that I didn't know.

1383
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:58,799
Speaker 6: This, elk Yeah, yeah, yeah, ELK.

1384
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: Like there could have been p people. I'm not sure

1385
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: what the latest is on this, but there could have

1386
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 1: been people that showed up here before elk.

1387
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so we think that wolves

1388
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 6: didn't actually make it here. Wolves and ky didn't actually

1389
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 6: make it here until fairly recently as well. So probably

1390
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 6: wolves came over in the same time humans were making

1391
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 6: their way over there, which is why dire wolves.

1392
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 1: Will get to dire So that was a wolf that

1393
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:25,600
Speaker 1: was here before Canis lupus.

1394
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 6: So dire wolves were probably the ancestor of dire wolves.

1395
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 6: Probably came into the Americas over a million years ago.

1396
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:38,680
Speaker 6: Probably dire wolves evolved in the Americas somewhere, and then

1397
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 6: we're here by themselves, the only wolf hanging out for

1398
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 6: a very long time until gray wolves and dogs eventually

1399
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 6: show up on the scene. But by then they they

1400
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 6: were so removed from each other evolutionarily, they would not

1401
01:16:57,920 --> 01:16:59,760
Speaker 6: have been able to so we have.

1402
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: So they weren't bred into they weren't bred into the

1403
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 1: gray wolf. No, they probably just blinked out. You think

1404
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 1: they blinked out because of being displaced by wolves and dogs,

1405
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 1: or you think they blinked out as part of the

1406
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:14,680
Speaker 1: megafoneal extinctions, you know that took off the mammoths and macedons.

1407
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:18,320
Speaker 6: It's probably a combination of both. The I mean, there

1408
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 6: are a lot of mega predators that were in the

1409
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:24,479
Speaker 6: America's they're no longer here. You know, we had American lion,

1410
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:29,640
Speaker 6: American cheetah, short face bear, all the shimtar cats like

1411
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:32,840
Speaker 6: all sorts of predators that are no longer here because

1412
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 6: their prey went. Yeah, tons of weird praise species that

1413
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:38,959
Speaker 6: you know, most people don't. There are camels in America,

1414
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 6: original horses, real horses. Before the arrival of European horses,

1415
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 6: we had horses here at camels, giant ground sloths, right Aglyptodon,

1416
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 6: which was like a ginormous armadillo. We had all sorts

1417
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:54,439
Speaker 6: of things that were here, and when those things went

1418
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:57,559
Speaker 6: with the climate, the predators that relied on them, you know,

1419
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,679
Speaker 6: went as well. It didn't help, you know, humans would

1420
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 6: have seen dire wolves. By the time we got here,

1421
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 6: there would have still been dire wolves. We would have

1422
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 6: interacted with dire wolves. We would have seen them, but

1423
01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:13,639
Speaker 6: probably didn't help that we arrive with our dogs hunting everything.

1424
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:17,000
Speaker 7: How big was a dire wolf like a dog species

1425
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 7: we'd recognize.

1426
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:21,639
Speaker 6: So a dire wolf isn't as big as we you know, game.

1427
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:26,800
Speaker 2: Style Game of Thrones to make some three four feet tall.

1428
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 6: No, I wish. No, the average direwolf is probably about

1429
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 6: the size of like a big Arctic timberwolf.

1430
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 7: Okay, that makes sense.

1431
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you don't know this. I was gonna say,

1432
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 1: did you know that me and my wife's first date

1433
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 1: was at LaBrea tarpis.

1434
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:44,280
Speaker 6: But you had I did not know that I'm here.

1435
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:49,360
Speaker 1: Well, no, hear me out. So I have a very

1436
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 1: nice I don't mean a brag school display at my

1437
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 1: house built into my wall. My first date with my wife,

1438
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,080
Speaker 1: who went to Librea tar pits, and they have the

1439
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 1: wall of dire wolf skulls, and I said at that time, somedow,

1440
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:12,559
Speaker 1: I'll build one of those into my house. You did

1441
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 1: it and then married her and built the school. Stick

1442
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 1: to my word. Score.

1443
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:21,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, can I tack onto this conversation? This this tattoo

1444
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:25,000
Speaker 4: is the that is the cattle brand of the original

1445
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:26,960
Speaker 4: owners of the Lebra guitar pit when I think it

1446
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 4: was called the Leroca Ranch because I also went there

1447
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 4: and I was so moved by like the dire wolf thing.

1448
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:35,840
Speaker 2: That was like I want something associated with that.

1449
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, Bray Tarpet's very cool. I mean they're very cool.

1450
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 6: I worked there several times, and one time when I

1451
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:44,280
Speaker 6: was working there, I had this office that kind of

1452
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:47,639
Speaker 6: looked out over the tar pits and I just watched.

1453
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 6: I was like one after the other animals, just adding

1454
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 6: adding to the.

1455
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 1: Birds.

1456
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,080
Speaker 6: Birds mostly just landing and then just.

1457
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:01,599
Speaker 1: Ah, you're seriously.

1458
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:05,759
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, the tar pets are still taking victims.

1459
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 1: But you know when it's crazy, that is, and I

1460
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,800
Speaker 1: don't know how many hundred, one hundred and seventy five

1461
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:13,360
Speaker 1: dire wolves have come out of there, well all that stuff,

1462
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: you think of it, it just be like a death like

1463
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 1: smell like death. But they're saying that as long as

1464
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 1: those pits have been going, I think it was that

1465
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 1: if you had an incident, meaning a baby, a baby

1466
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 1: mask mammoth gets stuck in the mud, a dire wolf

1467
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 1: goes out to scavenge on it, he gets stuck in

1468
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: the mud. A golden eagle lands on there, he gets

1469
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 1: stuck in the mud. As long as that are in

1470
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:37,719
Speaker 1: the tar, as long as that happens every forty years,

1471
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 1: yeah you're fine. Yeah, Like that would account for the

1472
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:47,479
Speaker 1: the bazillions of dead things collected in that tar. And

1473
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 1: they either still fishing.

1474
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:52,000
Speaker 6: Never learn they never learned, It just kept going. I

1475
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:55,639
Speaker 6: would just watch and yeah, we'll just land, and I thought.

1476
01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:59,559
Speaker 4: Humans must have learned. Now, there's been one human ever

1477
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:01,599
Speaker 4: found there. It was like an eighteen to twenty year

1478
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 4: old woman.

1479
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:04,679
Speaker 1: But she was thrown in she had a axe wound

1480
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:08,080
Speaker 1: or yeah, I didn't know that she was thrown in

1481
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:09,000
Speaker 1: there as a cover up.

1482
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:10,760
Speaker 6: Whoa, yeah, there's a dog in there, a.

1483
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 2: Thousand year old crime.

1484
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 1: She had an axe. Yeah, she had been had a

1485
01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:16,240
Speaker 1: blown into the head with an axe and somebody said,

1486
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean to stick her.

1487
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:17,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1488
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 6: Humans love to throw like bog bodies. I just love

1489
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 6: to throw a dead body into into one of these things, bogs,

1490
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 6: tar pits.

1491
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:29,360
Speaker 4: Swampsh'd be addicting throwing things in there.

1492
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 6: What happens?

1493
01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 7: Wow?

1494
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:33,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, still taking victims darts?

1495
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:33,639
Speaker 1: Oh?

1496
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:34,680
Speaker 2: Old it?

1497
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:36,719
Speaker 1: Did you just write that current eye forty?

1498
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 3: I did?

1499
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 1: I was right.

1500
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 2: I was waiting to get away.

1501
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:42,759
Speaker 1: You should have celebrated my rightness.

1502
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:44,679
Speaker 4: I was you know I was going to get there.

1503
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:47,959
Speaker 4: I forty in Arizona, New Mexico is the northern boundary

1504
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:49,600
Speaker 4: of the Mexican gray Wolves.

1505
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:52,519
Speaker 1: I got two more dire wolf questions. All right, have

1506
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 1: you guys found where anybody was any butchered remains of

1507
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:58,000
Speaker 1: dire wolves?

1508
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 6: We're not sure that's the answer. So we we don't

1509
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:05,759
Speaker 6: have a lot of sights where we have overlap between

1510
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 6: dire wolves and humans. The few sites that we have

1511
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:13,320
Speaker 6: are in New Mexico and Arizona where we have butchery

1512
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:16,920
Speaker 6: sites where humans have butchered a mammoth and we also

1513
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:23,320
Speaker 6: have remains of dire wolves got it, but no obvious interaction.

1514
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 1: Like no tools made from dire wolf.

1515
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:28,400
Speaker 6: Bones or no, no, nothing very specific like that. We

1516
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:32,360
Speaker 6: think probably humans caught the tail end. Around twelve to

1517
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 6: thirteen thousand years ago is the time when a lot

1518
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,439
Speaker 6: of those mega predators and the Americas start to go

1519
01:22:38,479 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 6: short face bear, saybergoth, cats, dire wolves, they all start

1520
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 6: to go out. So there may have been like a

1521
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 6: kind of hold out group in the Southwest that kind

1522
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:49,960
Speaker 6: of held on for some period of time and then

1523
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 6: kind of petered out. I think for our paper we

1524
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:54,719
Speaker 6: got one of the kind of latest dates of dire

1525
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:57,200
Speaker 6: wolves and it was like twelve seven hundred years ago,

1526
01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 6: and that's probably towards the very end of the dire

1527
01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 6: wolf population.

1528
01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:10,599
Speaker 1: And do you ever see are you ever running running

1529
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:19,479
Speaker 1: genetic lines on anything living today or anything from okay,

1530
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 1: how to put this, So dire wolves twelve thousand years

1531
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 1: ago they were gone? Yeah, okay, do you ever see

1532
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 1: in anything living today or anything that died in the

1533
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 1: last ten thousand years? Where you're like, oh, somehow some

1534
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:37,120
Speaker 1: dire wolves snuck in there. No it so it legit went,

1535
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 1: It's gone.

1536
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:42,080
Speaker 6: So we checked everything we think as possible dogs, coyotes,

1537
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:46,760
Speaker 6: gray wolves, nothing has any kind of dire wolf in it,

1538
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 6: and dire wolves, and so dire wolves and gray wolves

1539
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 6: have a common ancestor about five point eight million years ago,

1540
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,559
Speaker 6: but after that they diverged. So what was interesting was

1541
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:00,719
Speaker 6: that we always assumed that dire wolves were just gray wolves,

1542
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:06,400
Speaker 6: like they look nearly identical in their morphology, and you know,

1543
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 6: the people tarpets are the experts and dire wolves and

1544
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:11,719
Speaker 6: we just always they just look so similar. We figured

1545
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:15,400
Speaker 6: that they're like a sister species or just very closely related.

1546
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:18,400
Speaker 6: And so when we did, when we finally got DNA

1547
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 6: out of them, the reason it took so long was

1548
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 6: because the stuff at Libreas, where most of dire wolves

1549
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:25,719
Speaker 6: are coming from, covered in tar, not a great place

1550
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:29,880
Speaker 6: to find DNA. Tar destroys the DNA. So yeah, so

1551
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 6: can't can't get DNA out of those.

1552
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,599
Speaker 1: So just can't, can't can't really any of that stuff.

1553
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:37,880
Speaker 6: No, the tar just like destroys it. So I went

1554
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:42,240
Speaker 6: on this like bonkers road trip where I just drove

1555
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:44,799
Speaker 6: everywhere I could think of that might have dire wolf

1556
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:46,640
Speaker 6: bones and collected.

1557
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:47,320
Speaker 1: I'm just knocked on the door.

1558
01:24:47,240 --> 01:24:50,920
Speaker 6: A bunch of dire wolf samples, like Idaho Museum, Natural Street. Hey,

1559
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 6: you guys have dire wal I just went everywhere and

1560
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 6: tried to get as many as I could, and we

1561
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 6: managed to get five out of hundreds that we that

1562
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:03,000
Speaker 6: we tested that we actually so we have two from

1563
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:09,559
Speaker 6: American Falls, from Idaho, and then one from Ohio, one

1564
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:12,799
Speaker 6: from Texas, I think, and another one from somewhere back east.

1565
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:17,479
Speaker 6: So five rand ones, not Librea or anywhere famous that

1566
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:21,559
Speaker 6: we know dire wolves from. And when we tested those,

1567
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:24,920
Speaker 6: there's just no relationship at all. We found that they

1568
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:28,000
Speaker 6: are more closely reated to like jackals than they are

1569
01:25:28,120 --> 01:25:30,599
Speaker 6: great wolves or dogs or kyotes or anything like that.

1570
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 6: They diverged so long ago, so their ancestor that was

1571
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:39,960
Speaker 6: related to like a jackal, African jackal ancestor diverged, came

1572
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:43,400
Speaker 6: over from Africa across Eurasia and into the Americas, right

1573
01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:47,400
Speaker 6: and that split happened five point eight million years ago,

1574
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:51,679
Speaker 6: and so their relationship to wolves is not very close

1575
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:53,680
Speaker 6: to the relationship. They just look like Wolves. It's like

1576
01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 6: convergent evolution. They do the same things, they live in

1577
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,000
Speaker 6: the same place, they eat the same thing. They kind

1578
01:25:58,000 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 6: of so they look the same.

1579
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:05,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, uh, are you Fami with the Grateful Dead.

1580
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:09,559
Speaker 6: I've become familiar with a lot of things that are

1581
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:11,240
Speaker 6: tangential to dire Wolves.

1582
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 1: You know where I'm going.

1583
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 3: You know where I'm going with I do.

1584
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1585
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 1: They have one good album, yeah, Reckoning.

1586
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 2: Yeah that's it.

1587
01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:22,240
Speaker 1: You think I don't care what Doug Darren plays in

1588
01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:25,360
Speaker 1: his car. They got one good album, Reckoning, which includes

1589
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:26,559
Speaker 1: the song dire Wolf.

1590
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:28,760
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, you.

1591
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:30,919
Speaker 1: Should license that film. We could play it during the podcast.

1592
01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds good.

1593
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 6: When I talk about diar Wolves, a lot of things

1594
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:38,160
Speaker 6: come up. Game of Thrones obviously.

1595
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:41,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, traffic and that kind of stuff, any kind I

1596
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:43,679
Speaker 1: don't like any kind of new stuff that people know about,

1597
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:46,720
Speaker 1: because then it's just I'm always afraid my brain will

1598
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:47,479
Speaker 1: become like their brain.

1599
01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:49,759
Speaker 6: We got to work backwards. Then you got Game of Thrones,

1600
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 6: and then you got D and D Dungeon Chaggins anyone.

1601
01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll talk about that. Guys in high school, we're

1602
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:56,240
Speaker 1: into that dire Wolves.

1603
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:58,720
Speaker 6: There's like a Direwolf car dire wolves are part of that,

1604
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 6: and then you know grief. Those are kind of the

1605
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:04,920
Speaker 6: touchstones of of diar Wals. Most people, though a lot

1606
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:07,799
Speaker 6: of people had no idea dire wolf was a real animal.

1607
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:11,400
Speaker 6: I thought it was a completely mythological like creature that

1608
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 6: was just made up for Game of Thrones or made

1609
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:16,519
Speaker 6: up for dungeons and dragons, and I don't know it's

1610
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:20,120
Speaker 6: real that it was a real animal. M Yeah, did

1611
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 6: you know? Did you all know that dire wolf was

1612
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:22,360
Speaker 6: a real animal?

1613
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, dude from my first day?

1614
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:34,839
Speaker 7: Probably not in high school, I didn't, but yeah's.

1615
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 1: Who's the ass on your necklace? What's that my kid?

1616
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 1: What's your kid's name?

1617
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:41,320
Speaker 7: Scot Oh, that's from the movie. Yeah, yeah, Mockingbird, Yellow Mockingbird.

1618
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:43,760
Speaker 1: It's a novel.

1619
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:49,920
Speaker 7: How many books do you knowed me to ready if

1620
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:50,719
Speaker 7: I quote something?

1621
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 6: In high school? Yeah?

1622
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:57,320
Speaker 1: You named? Are you familiar with the the somewhat misogynistic

1623
01:27:57,400 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 1: theory that Truman Capoti wrote that book?

1624
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:01,880
Speaker 6: No?

1625
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:07,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, I learned that in the movie Capoti.

1626
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:08,559
Speaker 7: That in there.

1627
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:13,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, supposedly the Dale character in the in the novel.

1628
01:28:18,040 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: Does have a big pre publication record, and then it

1629
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:22,800
Speaker 1: kind of dropped off the Face of the Earth, and

1630
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: when they line out what her influences, it's like Courtney

1631
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 1: Love all that all that great music by whole was

1632
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:33,719
Speaker 1: when she was hanging out with Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumkins.

1633
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 1: That's another misogynistic music theory. And then so it's like

1634
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 1: that that wasn't actually her, it was Billy Corgan. And

1635
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:42,400
Speaker 1: then that that Truman Capodi wrote to Kill a Mockingbird.

1636
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 1: I didn't know that and published it under her name

1637
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 1: because then she never I guess she didn't like write

1638
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 1: anything after. I'm not telling you a theory that I think.

1639
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:52,320
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you about the theory. It's like when

1640
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:54,519
Speaker 1: I tell jokes you're not supposed to tell. Now I

1641
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 1: tell people about the joke. I don't tell the joke.

1642
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 1: I'm like, you should be aware there's a joke that

1643
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:01,200
Speaker 1: goals like this.

1644
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:03,720
Speaker 6: Should I rename my daughter now?

1645
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 1: No? No, it's after the movie.

1646
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 6: It's a movie too. It's a movie too.

1647
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 1: Spencer, what do you what are you Dealey dallying around here?

1648
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: You got another question?

1649
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 2: I was just making notes.

1650
01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:23,960
Speaker 3: We could hit on this. I feel like the rotten

1651
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:27,280
Speaker 3: meat fermentation topics are interesting.

1652
01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:27,920
Speaker 1: You guys take.

1653
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:34,440
Speaker 3: Well it was just in the notes about the consumption

1654
01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:36,639
Speaker 3: of rotten meat. You want to speak to that?

1655
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:38,559
Speaker 6: Do you want to speak to that?

1656
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:45,320
Speaker 3: I can't speak if you could. Yeah, was it was

1657
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,120
Speaker 3: it the wolves or the humans that were doing that?

1658
01:29:49,080 --> 01:29:52,400
Speaker 6: So I think the idea behind this, this is still

1659
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:57,599
Speaker 6: a kind of new idea that humans. You know, wolves

1660
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:03,639
Speaker 6: do this. They cash somewhere, they kill something, they eat

1661
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 6: their fill, and then they'll they'll cash the meat in

1662
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,960
Speaker 6: water or you know, on her snow or something like that,

1663
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:12,800
Speaker 6: and come back to it, by which point it's you know,

1664
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:17,720
Speaker 6: sometimes putrid, rotten, but fine, but fine for them. Right,

1665
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:23,080
Speaker 6: So the ideas did Neanderthals or modern humans kind of

1666
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:27,000
Speaker 6: pick up on this idea of if you put meat

1667
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 6: into an anaerobic environment, if you put it in the water,

1668
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:32,080
Speaker 6: in a frozen link or something like that, and come

1669
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 6: back for it next season when you're low on meat,

1670
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 6: you know, is this something that you could kind of

1671
01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:41,879
Speaker 6: get away with. So I have a good friend Melanie,

1672
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 6: she worked at the body farm in Tennessee.

1673
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 1: Where they do all that that stuff for. Yeah, what's

1674
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:53,120
Speaker 1: the word it combines like insects and.

1675
01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:58,000
Speaker 6: Crime, Yeah, forensic entomology, Yeah, yeah, studying like when does

1676
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 6: a blowfly hat on a dead body or something like that. Yeah,

1677
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 6: so she was working there. She's a professor at Purdue now,

1678
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:08,880
Speaker 6: but we were working on this idea of like we're

1679
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 6: trying to figure out why nitrogen values.

1680
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:14,840
Speaker 1: That'd be if I was a producer, I'd be taking

1681
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:19,120
Speaker 1: notes right now about getting someone from the body farm

1682
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:24,559
Speaker 1: on the show. Okay, ye forensic and to my forensic

1683
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:26,640
Speaker 1: and just someone who like puts a person out and

1684
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 1: then a while later goes and checks on them.

1685
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:30,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting something.

1686
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:31,800
Speaker 1: Can you horin up?

1687
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:32,320
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1688
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:33,840
Speaker 6: Sure, I mean there are a couple of them. There's

1689
01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:36,599
Speaker 6: one in Texas. There are a couple kind of around

1690
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 6: where they're doing.

1691
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:38,639
Speaker 1: We want the person who's best.

1692
01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:43,000
Speaker 6: Body farm. The one at Tennessee is kind of the

1693
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:44,240
Speaker 6: the most well known one and.

1694
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:50,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely krin you can donate your body there for science and.

1695
01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 6: You can there's kind of consider.

1696
01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:57,479
Speaker 1: No cure.

1697
01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, wasn't there a whole thing about uh one

1698
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:05,840
Speaker 6: of the.

1699
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 8: Lab the heads of the lab at was it.

1700
01:32:06,720 --> 01:32:10,240
Speaker 6: Harvard or another university of a cadaver lab where they

1701
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:14,080
Speaker 6: were actually selling off body parts.

1702
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:21,920
Speaker 1: No, I would mind picking one up experiment, Yeah, be

1703
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:27,760
Speaker 1: like see that you know what that is right in

1704
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:30,320
Speaker 1: my freezer? All right? Sorry, yeah, yeah, you go ahead

1705
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:31,400
Speaker 1: with your line of questions.

1706
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:33,840
Speaker 3: I don't think I add a question that we're listening to.

1707
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:37,719
Speaker 3: Angela explained about the body.

1708
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,040
Speaker 6: I mean, last I heard, they were they were full

1709
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 6: of and that they had their they were at max

1710
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:46,080
Speaker 6: capacity of you know, the number of people that they

1711
01:32:46,080 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 6: could take on the head signed up. So many people

1712
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 6: want to donate, donate their bodies, and there's a pretty

1713
01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 6: you know, an extensive process of paperwork that you need

1714
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:59,639
Speaker 6: to do before, you know, because part of the work

1715
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:04,320
Speaker 6: that they're doing at that lab is you know, being

1716
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:06,360
Speaker 6: able to track things I have to do with knowing

1717
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:08,639
Speaker 6: you know, kind of what your diet is and your

1718
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:11,080
Speaker 6: ages and things like that. So they need some background

1719
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:14,400
Speaker 6: information on who you are and kind of what kind

1720
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:18,720
Speaker 6: of lifestyle you lived or things like that. So you know,

1721
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:23,840
Speaker 6: my friend was clipping cadaver fingernails to do some some

1722
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:28,240
Speaker 6: work on on cadaver finger things like that. I mean,

1723
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 6: it's really it's it's really interesting work. Definitely be a

1724
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:33,479
Speaker 6: good episode.

1725
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:45,400
Speaker 1: Are you familiar? I think this might have got debunked,

1726
01:33:45,960 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 1: but there was a site where they had they the

1727
01:33:51,400 --> 01:33:53,640
Speaker 1: way they interpreted this site at the time, was it

1728
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:57,799
Speaker 1: someone had they had killed some mammoths, put those mammoths

1729
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 1: in a pond, and then to the intestines and packed

1730
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:06,840
Speaker 1: them full of gravel and wove the gravel over. Wove

1731
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:11,360
Speaker 1: the gravel filled in testines as weights. Oh okay, over

1732
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 1: the carcasses to hold them underwater. So the intestine rotted away.

1733
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:21,640
Speaker 1: But you had this skeleton remains of this meat overlaid

1734
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:25,879
Speaker 1: with these cylinders of gravel, And that's what they suspected

1735
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 1: that they had made.

1736
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:31,160
Speaker 6: Like in ans, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. I

1737
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 6: think we think of ancient peoples as kind of like slow. No, right, No,

1738
01:34:37,600 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 6: of course not. They would have figured out all sorts

1739
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,480
Speaker 6: of stuff like this, right, they would have figured out pretty.

1740
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:45,400
Speaker 1: Cool to think of that as like a new timey idea.

1741
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:48,960
Speaker 1: What packing testines full of gravel and laying them over

1742
01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 1: some meat. Yeah, I mean, if I got friends that

1743
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:53,599
Speaker 1: none of us proposed that we do.

1744
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 6: That, try it. I mean, next time you guys go

1745
01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 6: out hunting, take take a carcass that has something left

1746
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:03,040
Speaker 6: on it and put it, put it in a you know,

1747
01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:06,759
Speaker 6: a cold body of water, cover it with some gravelly

1748
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:10,000
Speaker 6: intestines and see how long? Yeah, see how long it takes.

1749
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:13,439
Speaker 1: We've done that just to keep flies where it's not.

1750
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:15,639
Speaker 1: It's kind of nasty the way it looks after a while.

1751
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 1: But between getting full of fly eggs and hot or

1752
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:21,400
Speaker 1: putting it in the creek, we've opted to just stick

1753
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:21,960
Speaker 1: in the creek.

1754
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:23,120
Speaker 6: How long did you leave it for?

1755
01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:24,200
Speaker 1: Days? A couple days?

1756
01:35:24,479 --> 01:35:25,040
Speaker 6: What was it like?

1757
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 1: When it just looks like something that drowned. It gets

1758
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:30,000
Speaker 1: bled out real bad, so it gets white. But I

1759
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:32,320
Speaker 1: don't think if you PEPSI challenged it, I don't think

1760
01:35:32,320 --> 01:35:33,800
Speaker 1: you'd be able to taste the difference, to be honest

1761
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:36,439
Speaker 1: with you, it just looks. It just looks off putting.

1762
01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:39,720
Speaker 6: How long do you think you could leave it in

1763
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:40,160
Speaker 6: the water.

1764
01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:42,360
Speaker 1: Well, if you put it in, if you put it

1765
01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:44,559
Speaker 1: in the creek and that creek was running like a

1766
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:47,360
Speaker 1: glacial stream where that thing's running forty to fifty degrees,

1767
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:49,639
Speaker 1: I bet you put them there for weeks and it'd

1768
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 1: still be edible.

1769
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 3: Try it, Yeah, as long as something else wasn't starting

1770
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:57,639
Speaker 3: to eat on it. Yeah, but just cold glacial water

1771
01:35:57,680 --> 01:36:00,000
Speaker 3: in there, yeah, I guess colder, it is probably less

1772
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:03,280
Speaker 3: bacteria and whatnot in there to eat it or actually.

1773
01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:05,040
Speaker 1: In the case where we did it, that stuff was

1774
01:36:05,160 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 1: a glacier earlier that day, so.

1775
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:12,200
Speaker 6: It stayed really cool, real cold. Yeah.

1776
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:15,439
Speaker 4: Did you notice any trends with the average life span

1777
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:18,400
Speaker 4: of domestic dogs thousands of years ago? Did it seem

1778
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:18,960
Speaker 4: very different?

1779
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 6: Not really? You know, we found lots of ten twelve

1780
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 6: year old dogs. Wow, ancient dogs, which is, you know,

1781
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:31,719
Speaker 6: not that far off from now. I mean how old,

1782
01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:32,560
Speaker 6: dear guys.

1783
01:36:32,320 --> 01:36:34,800
Speaker 7: Hunting dogs, I always say, twelve is an easy number.

1784
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:37,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

1785
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:40,719
Speaker 7: About right of active hunting and not necessarily the last

1786
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:43,640
Speaker 7: year or two. But in some cases, you know, what

1787
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:44,040
Speaker 7: is the.

1788
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:46,280
Speaker 6: Life cycle of like a hunting dog in terms of

1789
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 6: how long does it take to train, when's it get good,

1790
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:50,759
Speaker 6: when's it kind of plateau?

1791
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:53,799
Speaker 1: And then when does it in the bird.

1792
01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:55,639
Speaker 7: Dog world, I don't know in the hound world, Yanni,

1793
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:57,760
Speaker 7: But in the bird dog world what I said, by

1794
01:36:57,760 --> 01:37:01,600
Speaker 7: three years, you know what you have third season, and

1795
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:03,280
Speaker 7: of course that takes training to get there.

1796
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:05,000
Speaker 1: His die has been cast.

1797
01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:06,840
Speaker 7: Right right, like he's but this way, he's not going

1798
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 7: to get better. He's not going to start pointing him

1799
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:12,240
Speaker 7: forty yards away. And giving you more opportunity. Whatever he's

1800
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:15,800
Speaker 7: developed over a couple of three seasons, there's your dog.

1801
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:18,320
Speaker 1: How long until you know? How long until you know

1802
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:18,880
Speaker 1: what you got?

1803
01:37:20,479 --> 01:37:22,320
Speaker 7: Usually you can tell about a year and a half,

1804
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:25,120
Speaker 7: like you used to get one hunting season behind you,

1805
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:28,320
Speaker 7: and you see potential and then you're just hoping to

1806
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:30,679
Speaker 7: build on that. But sometimes it just never builds.

1807
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:33,519
Speaker 1: God, it just but you formed on strong. At a

1808
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:35,599
Speaker 1: year and a half, you have a strong hunch.

1809
01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 7: Oh yeah yeah, And at three years you know, yeah,

1810
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:40,559
Speaker 7: I got a dog right now that hunts behind me.

1811
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:44,160
Speaker 1: Jesus making sure.

1812
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:51,400
Speaker 7: I just can't bear to color. We lined up in

1813
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:52,439
Speaker 7: North Dakota, Les.

1814
01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:54,479
Speaker 1: Can take off the rear on he just against you

1815
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:55,280
Speaker 1: pass one by.

1816
01:37:55,600 --> 01:37:59,120
Speaker 7: We had five of us pushing this big state land

1817
01:38:00,479 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 7: and it's behind us. She's doing a nice job of

1818
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:06,880
Speaker 7: going left to right, but she's behind us. So I

1819
01:38:06,920 --> 01:38:09,320
Speaker 7: think Trent said, well, how about if we turn around

1820
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:15,120
Speaker 7: and walk backwards. So yeah, she's not gonna be a

1821
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:19,080
Speaker 7: rock star but for the hound, gentleman.

1822
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:21,479
Speaker 1: But what a second, I wanted this, this this rear

1823
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:24,200
Speaker 1: hunt dog. Well, so that kind of thing. There's no

1824
01:38:24,320 --> 01:38:25,559
Speaker 1: way you're going.

1825
01:38:25,479 --> 01:38:27,400
Speaker 7: To that and I'll be honest with you. I know

1826
01:38:27,479 --> 01:38:28,840
Speaker 7: for a fact because I know who owned her and

1827
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:31,479
Speaker 7: they and I got him from her. She did something

1828
01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:33,719
Speaker 7: very similar to that in her little puppy test before

1829
01:38:33,720 --> 01:38:34,479
Speaker 7: she was a year of age.

1830
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:36,439
Speaker 1: You're not going to crack that. No, you're not gonna say.

1831
01:38:36,479 --> 01:38:39,360
Speaker 7: Listen, Oh you could over you could over handle her

1832
01:38:39,439 --> 01:38:42,040
Speaker 7: and call her around and call her around and call

1833
01:38:42,080 --> 01:38:45,120
Speaker 7: her around. I just let her hut. She hunts fine

1834
01:38:45,160 --> 01:38:48,040
Speaker 7: with one person, but with more than one person she

1835
01:38:48,160 --> 01:38:52,920
Speaker 7: decides to go left to right behind you. But how

1836
01:38:52,960 --> 01:38:53,800
Speaker 7: long is the hound head?

1837
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:56,160
Speaker 3: I think Frank could probably speak to it better than

1838
01:38:56,200 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 3: I can.

1839
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:58,559
Speaker 1: Well, it's with.

1840
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:07,519
Speaker 5: They have been bread so strong over the last fifty

1841
01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:12,560
Speaker 5: sixty years. You're lying the coon dogs, Yes, yeah, it's

1842
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:15,559
Speaker 5: and you all the even you know, if you're pleasure

1843
01:39:15,640 --> 01:39:18,080
Speaker 5: hunting or your competition hunting, you're getting your dogs from

1844
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 5: the same place, all out of the same litters, and

1845
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 5: their bread for competition. So the breeding is to have

1846
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 5: a dog that's barking, quicker, that's tree and quicker for

1847
01:39:31,880 --> 01:39:35,240
Speaker 5: competition because in competition you don't necessarily have to see

1848
01:39:35,280 --> 01:39:39,559
Speaker 5: a coon in the tree. In the summertime, the leaves

1849
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:41,599
Speaker 5: are full of If the trees are full of leaves

1850
01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:44,920
Speaker 5: and you can't see a coon, it's called circle points

1851
01:39:45,560 --> 01:39:47,719
Speaker 5: and you get credit for that. You know, you could

1852
01:39:47,760 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 5: you could win a coon hunting competition at night and

1853
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:54,120
Speaker 5: never look at a coon if there was any doubt

1854
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:56,360
Speaker 5: that there wasn't a coon in that tree. You know,

1855
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:58,360
Speaker 5: if you if you went to a tree that didn't

1856
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:02,599
Speaker 5: have any leaves on it and you couldn't you everybody can. Yeah,

1857
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:04,240
Speaker 5: you could look all the way around and there wasn't

1858
01:40:04,240 --> 01:40:05,880
Speaker 5: any holes in it and you could see you know,

1859
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 5: that's called slick treeing. You know, there's nothing in there.

1860
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:12,320
Speaker 5: That's that's a minus. If you tree on that same

1861
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:15,200
Speaker 5: tree in the summertime, when it's full of leaves and

1862
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:17,519
Speaker 5: you just can't happen to see it, you can say, well,

1863
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,479
Speaker 5: they're theoretically you know, you could hide six up there,

1864
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:23,680
Speaker 5: but we just can't see them. But that's you know,

1865
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:28,080
Speaker 5: would you see your beast? Well, my dog started treating

1866
01:40:28,160 --> 01:40:32,080
Speaker 5: by hisself when he was nine months old, but that's

1867
01:40:32,160 --> 01:40:36,040
Speaker 5: not I mean, that's not highly unusual. There's yeah, it's

1868
01:40:36,080 --> 01:40:38,640
Speaker 5: all that's what it is. He he is following that

1869
01:40:38,680 --> 01:40:41,080
Speaker 5: genetic cold that's been instilled in him.

1870
01:40:41,400 --> 01:40:42,760
Speaker 1: But at a year, like you.

1871
01:40:42,720 --> 01:40:44,120
Speaker 5: Were saying, a year and a year and a half,

1872
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:46,840
Speaker 5: that's when most folks start deciding I'm going to keep

1873
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:49,840
Speaker 5: this dog, or you know, maybe he's got some characteristics

1874
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:52,360
Speaker 5: that I don't like that I'm that somebody else is

1875
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:55,400
Speaker 5: okay with. And I'm not a competition hunter, so I'm

1876
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:58,280
Speaker 5: just I'm just looking for when I cut the dog loose,

1877
01:40:58,640 --> 01:41:01,080
Speaker 5: that when he starts treeing, that he's he's looking at

1878
01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:04,000
Speaker 5: a looking at a coon. So what he does between

1879
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:06,280
Speaker 5: the time I turn him loose and he treats a coon,

1880
01:41:06,320 --> 01:41:08,639
Speaker 5: it's really immaterial to me. As long as he barks

1881
01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:10,880
Speaker 5: enough that I can keep up with him. He's not

1882
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:15,680
Speaker 5: running deer, not running chasing armadals or treeing possums or

1883
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 5: anything like that off game, which he doesn't. And it's

1884
01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:25,320
Speaker 5: it's you talk about wolves and how dogs came from that,

1885
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:29,840
Speaker 5: you know, it's inherently against what a predator would do.

1886
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:34,679
Speaker 5: Chasing prey to make noise, you know, A coon dog

1887
01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:37,599
Speaker 5: or any kind of dog that chases game that barks

1888
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:40,680
Speaker 5: out loud for you to know where he's at, is

1889
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:44,960
Speaker 5: really going against what would would be able for them

1890
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:47,800
Speaker 5: to fill in the dinner plate because he's chasing a

1891
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:50,920
Speaker 5: coon to eat, because it's a prey drive, the prey

1892
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:52,360
Speaker 5: instinct that he's going after.

1893
01:41:52,640 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 7: He's giving him a lot of warning, he's marking.

1894
01:41:54,920 --> 01:41:58,599
Speaker 5: He's saying, I'm coming, you know, and that's no point

1895
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:01,600
Speaker 5: tree with the whole exactly.

1896
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:03,000
Speaker 3: He's like Kevin Murphy.

1897
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:06,160
Speaker 1: I feel the need to quote Jerry Kloer. Jerry Klower said,

1898
01:42:06,320 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 1: when Brummy trees out on a coon, you don't have

1899
01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:12,240
Speaker 1: to worry about no possum or no wildcat. That's right,

1900
01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:13,519
Speaker 1: that's exactly.

1901
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:17,280
Speaker 3: How many prime years will you get then out of that?

1902
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:21,439
Speaker 5: Oh you can, you know, with proper care, and he

1903
01:42:21,439 --> 01:42:25,160
Speaker 5: gets carred for properly. You can hunt a dog, you know,

1904
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:29,639
Speaker 5: seven eight, nine years old, and we hunt. I keep

1905
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:33,160
Speaker 5: I keep him in shape, We hunt, you know, year round.

1906
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:37,880
Speaker 5: His doghouse has an air conditioner in it.

1907
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:41,960
Speaker 7: I think that'll build up tolerance.

1908
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 5: And a heater so it never gets hotter than seventy

1909
01:42:47,040 --> 01:42:49,280
Speaker 5: five degrees in there, colder than fifty five.

1910
01:42:49,720 --> 01:42:53,840
Speaker 7: Hey, Steve, did you know that your hometown, my adopted hometown,

1911
01:42:54,160 --> 01:42:57,200
Speaker 7: is home of one of the most famous coon dog

1912
01:42:57,240 --> 01:43:00,599
Speaker 7: walker bereaeders in the history of the world. Oh yeah,

1913
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:04,960
Speaker 7: the Giddings family, Chuck, Frank Kitttings, Frank Frank Gettings, Chuck.

1914
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 7: Really yeah, he had that.

1915
01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:09,479
Speaker 1: Carl got his walkers and everything. Yep.

1916
01:43:09,560 --> 01:43:12,479
Speaker 7: And his son, Chuck lives right next door to me.

1917
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:16,880
Speaker 7: That log home next to me, that's Chuck Gettings house. Seriously, yeah,

1918
01:43:16,880 --> 01:43:18,680
Speaker 7: and his dad is in his eighties and he still

1919
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:21,320
Speaker 7: runs coons every night, every night, every night.

1920
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:23,439
Speaker 1: So is that well, no, you can't because I thought

1921
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:29,320
Speaker 1: it was the training season there, oh, Phil.

1922
01:43:31,120 --> 01:43:33,160
Speaker 7: There is the season when it is closed. You're right,

1923
01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:37,360
Speaker 7: But any night that he could be out out that's good.

1924
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:40,240
Speaker 1: Heed.

1925
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:43,640
Speaker 5: In Arkansas, you can hunt, you know your you can

1926
01:43:43,680 --> 01:43:46,160
Speaker 5: hunt your round and you can take game. You can

1927
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:49,080
Speaker 5: kill coons on private land year round and there's no

1928
01:43:49,200 --> 01:43:52,200
Speaker 5: limit on them. I don't kill very man coon scept

1929
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 5: in the wintertime when the when the fur is good,

1930
01:43:54,760 --> 01:43:58,600
Speaker 5: you know, I'll bring the fur home. But the you

1931
01:43:58,640 --> 01:44:00,559
Speaker 5: can still get out there and do it. And then

1932
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:05,000
Speaker 5: you know, those dogs, there's the domestication of them. And

1933
01:44:05,560 --> 01:44:08,280
Speaker 5: a lot of people would think, or I used to

1934
01:44:08,320 --> 01:44:10,760
Speaker 5: think that it was you had to train a dog

1935
01:44:10,840 --> 01:44:12,200
Speaker 5: to make him do what you wanted to. It had

1936
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:14,120
Speaker 5: to be about four, she would think, you know, somebody,

1937
01:44:14,160 --> 01:44:16,680
Speaker 5: really he had had to be heavy handed with.

1938
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:18,960
Speaker 1: A dog to get him to do something. But that's

1939
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:19,639
Speaker 1: not the case.

1940
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:19,880
Speaker 8: No.

1941
01:44:20,040 --> 01:44:23,040
Speaker 5: You know, every dog that I've ever owned, even labradors

1942
01:44:23,080 --> 01:44:25,919
Speaker 5: when I was training the labradors, they have an inherent

1943
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:29,439
Speaker 5: desire to please you. And you just got to if

1944
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:33,360
Speaker 5: you can't show that dog that you appreciate what he's

1945
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:38,879
Speaker 5: doing and let him know that. When when whaling trees

1946
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:42,519
Speaker 5: and he he when I cut him loose and he tracks,

1947
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:45,280
Speaker 5: he barks on the trail and then he trees and

1948
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:49,200
Speaker 5: I praise him. That's all that's that's his reward. His

1949
01:44:49,280 --> 01:44:51,880
Speaker 5: reward is not the coon in the tree, because those

1950
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:54,760
Speaker 5: those days are over with. His reward is me being

1951
01:44:54,800 --> 01:44:56,960
Speaker 5: pleased with how he did it. If he goes out

1952
01:44:57,040 --> 01:44:59,000
Speaker 5: to do it again. Yeah, And if he goes out

1953
01:44:59,040 --> 01:45:00,880
Speaker 5: and does something, he does some the wrong, I mean,

1954
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:03,920
Speaker 5: knock on wood. He's never treated a possum. But how

1955
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:06,559
Speaker 5: I would deal with that is he wouldn't get a reward.

1956
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 7: He'd just be like, come on, let's get out of here.

1957
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:10,600
Speaker 5: I put I put a snap on a leash on

1958
01:45:10,680 --> 01:45:12,679
Speaker 5: him and lead him away and cut him loose again.

1959
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:14,280
Speaker 7: And it would be different for him. He'd be like,

1960
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:20,040
Speaker 7: he's like, oh man, he rubs my ears real good

1961
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 7: when we do this.

1962
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, election is still gonna let him come in the house.

1963
01:45:23,280 --> 01:45:28,160
Speaker 3: But most ancient people get the same feeling of just

1964
01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:32,040
Speaker 3: joyful pride that I got when I was in Arkansas

1965
01:45:32,080 --> 01:45:34,080
Speaker 3: and Mingus treated his first coon.

1966
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:34,880
Speaker 1: That doesn't.

1967
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:41,280
Speaker 6: I mean, let me tell you, I've seen some really elaborate,

1968
01:45:41,680 --> 01:45:46,400
Speaker 6: elaborate dog burials, ancient dog burials. There's one site in

1969
01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:52,519
Speaker 6: Sweden where big cemetery got humans in big cemetery, but

1970
01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:56,599
Speaker 6: humans in one location, young children in this kind of

1971
01:45:56,680 --> 01:45:59,600
Speaker 6: like middle ground location, and then a whole cemetery of

1972
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:02,840
Speaker 6: dogs and some of those dog barrils. One of those

1973
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:05,960
Speaker 6: dog barrels is the most like richly decorated, more than

1974
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:09,360
Speaker 6: the human burials. It's got, I mean, all sorts of

1975
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:13,960
Speaker 6: shells and points and red deer antlers and ochre and

1976
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:18,599
Speaker 6: the whole it's it's curled up with its tail kind

1977
01:46:18,600 --> 01:46:20,760
Speaker 6: of between its legs and it's its legs tucked up.

1978
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:24,120
Speaker 6: And I mean, you have to think that a dog's

1979
01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:29,919
Speaker 6: not being parried like that unless something, Yeah, there's something

1980
01:46:30,080 --> 01:46:35,920
Speaker 6: like they're just thinking like this is the greatest dog ever.

1981
01:46:35,960 --> 01:46:39,400
Speaker 6: But also you know, there's no telling how many hunting

1982
01:46:39,479 --> 01:46:43,479
Speaker 6: dogs they lost in the forest, right, and the dog

1983
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:46,280
Speaker 6: gets buried in the forest and never makes it makes

1984
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:50,200
Speaker 6: it back. But I mean, what for me for domestication studies,

1985
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:52,920
Speaker 6: I think one of the most interesting questions for me

1986
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:55,519
Speaker 6: is this you know thing that you guys are talking

1987
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:59,280
Speaker 6: about where they are the ancestors of wolves. They have

1988
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:04,320
Speaker 6: a prey drive. But somehow we've something's happened in the

1989
01:47:04,320 --> 01:47:09,719
Speaker 6: relationship with humans where they have mosts released to let

1990
01:47:09,760 --> 01:47:12,920
Speaker 6: the final step be kind of taken over by humans,

1991
01:47:13,000 --> 01:47:16,519
Speaker 6: right to make the kill, to make whatever that that

1992
01:47:16,680 --> 01:47:21,320
Speaker 6: final decision is on. Okay, I've chased, I've scented it,

1993
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:25,439
Speaker 6: I've gotten you here, I've done my job as I've

1994
01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:29,760
Speaker 6: used all my innate senses as a dog to get

1995
01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:33,160
Speaker 6: us here. Now you're the one to make.

1996
01:47:33,040 --> 01:47:38,280
Speaker 1: The kill that raca the tree. It's like you get

1997
01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:43,200
Speaker 1: like a couple of seconds, I portion it out, I

1998
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:44,560
Speaker 1: get what I want you.

1999
01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:47,600
Speaker 6: This is the question of like how did that This

2000
01:47:47,720 --> 01:47:51,280
Speaker 6: is interesting to me of like how that process happens.

2001
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:58,200
Speaker 6: That's brilliant where wolves released that control over the final

2002
01:47:58,240 --> 01:48:01,160
Speaker 6: step of the kill and then what happens afterwards. And

2003
01:48:01,200 --> 01:48:03,960
Speaker 6: so when people tell me, you know, we we we

2004
01:48:04,479 --> 01:48:07,920
Speaker 6: chose to domesticate wolves like we would have were hunting

2005
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:11,000
Speaker 6: alongside them, I'm trying to think, like, you know, it's

2006
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:14,120
Speaker 6: almost like Twilight, like running in the woods alongside the

2007
01:48:14,120 --> 01:48:16,840
Speaker 6: wolves and you're hunting deer and I'm hunting deer, and

2008
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:19,360
Speaker 6: so we decided to hunt together. I just can't see that.

2009
01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:21,920
Speaker 6: I can't see the scenario in which you make a kill.

2010
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:26,360
Speaker 6: You're there, the pack of wolves and you and a

2011
01:48:26,400 --> 01:48:27,360
Speaker 6: deer between you.

2012
01:48:32,439 --> 01:48:32,839
Speaker 7: Go ahead.

2013
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:36,720
Speaker 5: Well, seventy but I would say easily seventy percent of

2014
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:39,240
Speaker 5: the dogs that I hunt with now, if it's during

2015
01:48:39,320 --> 01:48:41,479
Speaker 5: kill season in the winter and we shoot a coon out,

2016
01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:45,320
Speaker 5: they'll They'll grab a hold of it and then that's it.

2017
01:48:45,439 --> 01:48:47,280
Speaker 5: I'll just turn and walk away and go look for another.

2018
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:51,240
Speaker 3: They just need a little the same way you think

2019
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:53,559
Speaker 3: he's just going to tear the thing to shreds, but

2020
01:48:53,600 --> 01:48:55,599
Speaker 3: he gives it one little Yeah.

2021
01:48:56,160 --> 01:48:58,960
Speaker 1: He gets his food from you. My kids have a

2022
01:48:59,120 --> 01:49:03,040
Speaker 1: red squirrel dog. It is an expert red squirrel hunter,

2023
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:07,120
Speaker 1: and all she wants to do is she wants to

2024
01:49:07,160 --> 01:49:09,000
Speaker 1: know that they've been shot down. Out of the tree,

2025
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:11,599
Speaker 1: won't eed it, no desire to pick it up.

2026
01:49:12,040 --> 01:49:13,280
Speaker 3: She's treeing those resis.

2027
01:49:13,400 --> 01:49:16,719
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, she trees them with a bark. Nope,

2028
01:49:16,920 --> 01:49:18,519
Speaker 1: that's the I said. If you could get that dog

2029
01:49:18,560 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 1: to bark, they got a follower. She'll hear if a

2030
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:25,519
Speaker 1: pine squirrel cuts out, she's going to that pine squirrel

2031
01:49:25,640 --> 01:49:28,160
Speaker 1: and she will get and sit at the base of

2032
01:49:28,240 --> 01:49:30,439
Speaker 1: tree and stare at that squirrel. And if you find her,

2033
01:49:30,520 --> 01:49:32,680
Speaker 1: there's a squirrel there and she's sitting there staring at it.

2034
01:49:33,080 --> 01:49:35,280
Speaker 1: And when they shoot it down, she's just done.

2035
01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:38,800
Speaker 7: Did you do any gun preparation for this or did

2036
01:49:38,840 --> 01:49:39,519
Speaker 7: it just work out?

2037
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:41,560
Speaker 1: No? They kept telling me how good she was at it,

2038
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,439
Speaker 1: and I kind of didn't believe it. But it's it's true. Man.

2039
01:49:44,479 --> 01:49:47,120
Speaker 1: That dog is a That dog will get one squirrel

2040
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:49,759
Speaker 1: after the other, after the other after the other. Right,

2041
01:49:50,200 --> 01:49:52,600
Speaker 1: because pine squirrels are so vocal and they have the

2042
01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:56,400
Speaker 1: achilles their achilles heel. I'm not saying every one of

2043
01:49:56,479 --> 01:49:59,160
Speaker 1: them does it, but when they're not happy with your presence,

2044
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:04,720
Speaker 1: they oh so just keeps it going. There's always if

2045
01:50:04,720 --> 01:50:06,280
Speaker 1: you're in a good area, there's always two or.

2046
01:50:06,280 --> 01:50:06,680
Speaker 7: Three of them.

2047
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:09,080
Speaker 1: Going, dude you And so she just goes to that

2048
01:50:09,120 --> 01:50:10,840
Speaker 1: one and she'll find out where it is and stare

2049
01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:14,559
Speaker 1: at it, and they'd act different. They'll when she treats them,

2050
01:50:14,640 --> 01:50:17,000
Speaker 1: they'll treat lower and out in the open and often

2051
01:50:17,040 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 1: sit there barking at her, not like they would with

2052
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:22,439
Speaker 1: a person. Yeah, so they my kids clean up on

2053
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:24,759
Speaker 1: them anyway, zero interest.

2054
01:50:25,600 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 6: What's happened. Something's happened.

2055
01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:29,240
Speaker 1: It wants to see them and wants to go out

2056
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:31,640
Speaker 1: and be like, yep, that one's dead and that's it.

2057
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:35,640
Speaker 6: But they've like that last final step of like predator

2058
01:50:36,280 --> 01:50:39,439
Speaker 6: response partnership has like released to humans.

2059
01:50:39,600 --> 01:50:42,000
Speaker 1: That's a great point. Why you'd go through all that

2060
01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:47,439
Speaker 1: trouble and then a thing that would once reward you

2061
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:50,320
Speaker 1: and your pack with all this food. You'd go through

2062
01:50:50,360 --> 01:50:53,559
Speaker 1: all of that same trouble and in the end not

2063
01:50:53,720 --> 01:50:56,080
Speaker 1: get to be the one you get the scramps, not

2064
01:50:56,280 --> 01:50:58,760
Speaker 1: get to be the one that decides on allocation.

2065
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:01,160
Speaker 6: You do all the work, and then you're just like

2066
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:07,559
Speaker 6: let go and then like back. Which is interesting when

2067
01:51:07,560 --> 01:51:08,760
Speaker 6: we have conversations with people.

2068
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:11,040
Speaker 7: Didn't happen till they made Kipple dry dog.

2069
01:51:10,920 --> 01:51:14,160
Speaker 6: For But I mean, you know, people have cats who

2070
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:15,920
Speaker 6: you know, those cats go out and they'll fend for

2071
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:17,080
Speaker 6: themselves all day long.

2072
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:20,799
Speaker 1: But yeah, get a cat thust.

2073
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:22,920
Speaker 6: Dogs like they can chase they can.

2074
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:26,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can tell you a little something about cats

2075
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:29,800
Speaker 5: as far as law enforcement goes. Anytime any kind of

2076
01:51:29,840 --> 01:51:32,880
Speaker 5: investigation where we had a death on a you know

2077
01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:37,080
Speaker 5: and unobserved death where someone old person or something, they

2078
01:51:37,080 --> 01:51:39,200
Speaker 5: had died in the house lands in their feeding on them,

2079
01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:41,479
Speaker 5: they had a cat. The cat to be eating them.

2080
01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:46,479
Speaker 5: Where what's it like to eat nose first? Yeah, that's

2081
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:48,680
Speaker 5: where they'll start. And then you go in there with

2082
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:50,599
Speaker 5: a dog and a dog will be starving to death,

2083
01:51:50,640 --> 01:51:52,080
Speaker 5: will be dead laying beside them.

2084
01:51:52,120 --> 01:51:55,600
Speaker 1: They won't eat them, you know, cat will eat you

2085
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:59,080
Speaker 1: for the shelter. Take your laugh, take your last breath,

2086
01:51:59,640 --> 01:52:02,479
Speaker 1: you know. I mean dogs on search.

2087
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:08,160
Speaker 2: This podcast all about dogs.

2088
01:52:08,160 --> 01:52:15,120
Speaker 1: We play cat in the titles. Yeah, so like I'm

2089
01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:17,719
Speaker 1: thinking c a t apostrophe LLL right.

2090
01:52:20,280 --> 01:52:23,240
Speaker 8: Like a parenthetical part of the title, like dogs are better.

2091
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:26,040
Speaker 1: I got one last question that weren't handed over to Ronnie.

2092
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:31,160
Speaker 1: You're not interested in dogs, like you don't have a

2093
01:52:31,160 --> 01:52:31,800
Speaker 1: bunch of dogs.

2094
01:52:32,720 --> 01:52:33,320
Speaker 6: I have dogs?

2095
01:52:33,400 --> 01:52:34,880
Speaker 1: Oh you do? Okay, I thought you were saying that

2096
01:52:34,920 --> 01:52:37,080
Speaker 1: you just didn't you weren't into like actually having them.

2097
01:52:37,200 --> 01:52:40,360
Speaker 6: No, I have dogs. I've always had dogs my parents.

2098
01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:42,880
Speaker 1: Somehow in the pre chat I picked up that I

2099
01:52:42,880 --> 01:52:43,439
Speaker 1: didn't get that.

2100
01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:45,200
Speaker 6: Yeah I have Westies.

2101
01:52:46,080 --> 01:52:47,600
Speaker 1: Oh I just picked that up. Okay, I thought you

2102
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:49,320
Speaker 1: were saying you were fixing to get into west.

2103
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:53,880
Speaker 6: I'm fixing to get into some new dogs. I'm fixing

2104
01:52:54,120 --> 01:52:59,599
Speaker 6: to some were I want like big livestock guarding dogs,

2105
01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:02,800
Speaker 6: you know, lives. That's what we're saying.

2106
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:03,439
Speaker 1: She goes.

2107
01:53:03,479 --> 01:53:04,720
Speaker 7: Now I got to get I.

2108
01:53:04,680 --> 01:53:08,240
Speaker 6: Have to get goats and sheep and property.

2109
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:13,600
Speaker 1: You know, you don't start with you start with like

2110
01:53:13,680 --> 01:53:14,719
Speaker 1: that jail.

2111
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:20,120
Speaker 6: This is what I this is. This is part of

2112
01:53:20,160 --> 01:53:23,480
Speaker 6: what I argue with some of my you know, archaeology

2113
01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:25,519
Speaker 6: colleagues about it is like, if you decide you're gonna

2114
01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:28,679
Speaker 6: you're gonna use dogs to hunt, right, and the dogs

2115
01:53:28,680 --> 01:53:33,000
Speaker 6: are like the primary decision makers. Then does all technology

2116
01:53:33,200 --> 01:53:36,320
Speaker 6: follow from using dogs to hunt? This is the other

2117
01:53:36,400 --> 01:53:40,840
Speaker 6: technology that you use then have to align with how

2118
01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:42,280
Speaker 6: you hunt with dogs.

2119
01:53:43,120 --> 01:53:44,720
Speaker 1: You know, my guess would be and I don't know

2120
01:53:44,840 --> 01:53:50,760
Speaker 1: my guess would be with humans. It was that initially,

2121
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:57,639
Speaker 1: it was that it was useful foreign activity already occurring,

2122
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:01,040
Speaker 1: and not that they said. He if we had one

2123
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:06,400
Speaker 1: of those, we would change how we go about this. Yeah,

2124
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 1: it was probably you know, when we try to drive

2125
01:54:09,200 --> 01:54:12,280
Speaker 1: all those things up into that box canyon, that would

2126
01:54:12,360 --> 01:54:14,559
Speaker 1: go even better. Yeah, well the dog.

2127
01:54:14,760 --> 01:54:17,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, So the ethnography and the ethnic history when you

2128
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:20,080
Speaker 6: read about hunting, I read a lot of like you know,

2129
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:24,760
Speaker 6: modern ethnography, but historical ethnography about people who went and

2130
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:28,439
Speaker 6: lived with indigenous groups somewhere and how they use dogs,

2131
01:54:28,840 --> 01:54:32,120
Speaker 6: and you hear similar stories over and over. There's always

2132
01:54:32,200 --> 01:54:35,600
Speaker 6: like a prize dog who's just the best, and everyone

2133
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:38,560
Speaker 6: wants the puppies from that prize dog and like allows

2134
01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:41,200
Speaker 6: them to do something that they couldn't do before. You

2135
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:45,320
Speaker 6: always hear stories about some type of prey, usually something

2136
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:49,640
Speaker 6: semi dangerous, bore or something like that that is just

2137
01:54:49,680 --> 01:54:51,880
Speaker 6: too dangerous to go after on their own, but now

2138
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:55,160
Speaker 6: that they have dogs, they've decided they're gonna go after it.

2139
01:54:55,640 --> 01:54:56,480
Speaker 1: That's what I was wrong.

2140
01:54:56,920 --> 01:54:58,880
Speaker 6: Well, for certain animals, I think for some, like the

2141
01:54:58,920 --> 01:55:02,840
Speaker 6: most more dangerous animals. You hear this in like Arabia

2142
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:08,240
Speaker 6: for example, like going after ibex, super dangerous and they

2143
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:11,880
Speaker 6: get themselves up into like crevices and stuff that you're

2144
01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:14,080
Speaker 6: not going to go after them, but your dogs will.

2145
01:55:14,320 --> 01:55:16,640
Speaker 6: Got it, So praise spieces that you normally would be

2146
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:17,360
Speaker 6: like not not.

2147
01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:20,680
Speaker 1: It opened up opportunity, opportunity, we know. It backs you

2148
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:22,680
Speaker 1: up on that. The last thing you're gonna do is

2149
01:55:22,720 --> 01:55:25,360
Speaker 1: catch a lion. Yeah, I mean you live, you could

2150
01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:27,600
Speaker 1: live a lifetime. I mean a mountain lion. Yeah, you

2151
01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:29,840
Speaker 1: live a lifetime and be like I spent my whole

2152
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:31,720
Speaker 1: life in the mountains that I've seen two mountain lions.

2153
01:55:31,800 --> 01:55:32,440
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2154
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:36,720
Speaker 1: So that opens up a thing that you just are

2155
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 1: not going to accomplish. Yeah, and it makes it possible.

2156
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah right, it's not like it so that that contradicts

2157
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:43,760
Speaker 1: my earlier point. You're right, it's like you're not going

2158
01:55:43,840 --> 01:55:44,640
Speaker 1: to get one without it.

2159
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:47,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, yeah, there are certain there are certain things.

2160
01:55:47,880 --> 01:55:50,440
Speaker 6: You also hear a lot of stories of we used

2161
01:55:50,480 --> 01:55:53,280
Speaker 6: to have to go out in five or ten person

2162
01:55:53,360 --> 01:55:57,040
Speaker 6: hunting groups. But now Phil Phil can go out by himself,

2163
01:55:57,160 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 6: This Phil or that Phil, any Phil, Phil can go

2164
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:02,120
Speaker 6: out by himself with a group of five dogs and

2165
01:56:02,200 --> 01:56:04,000
Speaker 6: do what we used to have to take ten people.

2166
01:56:04,080 --> 01:56:07,280
Speaker 6: Now the other eight people can go and do something

2167
01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:09,760
Speaker 6: actually useful around the camp, or go somewhere else and

2168
01:56:09,800 --> 01:56:13,240
Speaker 6: do something else. So it frees up people to do

2169
01:56:13,360 --> 01:56:17,200
Speaker 6: other things because a pack of dogs can do what

2170
01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:19,600
Speaker 6: a pack of humans would do, and probably much better.

2171
01:56:20,640 --> 01:56:23,880
Speaker 1: Me and Yanni interviewed a guy, do you remember his Yanni,

2172
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:27,760
Speaker 1: a Chimane guy. He had to tell his story in

2173
01:56:27,920 --> 01:56:31,000
Speaker 1: Chimane to someone who spoke Spanish.

2174
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:37,280
Speaker 3: No, to someone that spoke correct, that spoke Timani and Spanish.

2175
01:56:37,320 --> 01:56:39,960
Speaker 1: He told me someone who knows Chimani and Spanish, who

2176
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:45,000
Speaker 1: then listened and told it, and then to a Spanish

2177
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 1: Spanish English speaker, and then we're getting to like third hand.

2178
01:56:49,640 --> 01:56:53,040
Speaker 1: It was a big story about hunting jaguars with a

2179
01:56:53,080 --> 01:56:56,600
Speaker 1: dog and a jaguar that had killed some of his dogs,

2180
01:56:57,200 --> 01:57:01,920
Speaker 1: and eventually getting a jaguar or after it killed his

2181
01:57:02,120 --> 01:57:04,360
Speaker 1: primary dog, Yeah, his main dog.

2182
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:04,800
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2183
01:57:05,120 --> 01:57:07,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, So my colleague that I told you about before

2184
01:57:07,840 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 6: in Nicaragua, lots of jaguars where he is, and he says,

2185
01:57:10,800 --> 01:57:13,480
Speaker 6: you know, when he goes back, the percentage of dogs

2186
01:57:13,480 --> 01:57:17,280
Speaker 6: that are left from the year before is very low,

2187
01:57:17,520 --> 01:57:21,400
Speaker 6: and it's largely due to jaguars, but they're also using

2188
01:57:21,400 --> 01:57:23,120
Speaker 6: the dog. They're using the dogs as hunting dogs, but

2189
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:26,280
Speaker 6: also is in many ways that kind of not bait.

2190
01:57:26,360 --> 01:57:29,320
Speaker 6: But if jaguars going to attack someone, then you'd rather

2191
01:57:29,440 --> 01:57:31,200
Speaker 6: attack your dog and attack you.

2192
01:57:31,680 --> 01:57:33,520
Speaker 1: We were in a village they had lost at the

2193
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:35,400
Speaker 1: time we were there, and it continued for a while.

2194
01:57:35,440 --> 01:57:37,240
Speaker 1: At the time we were there, they had in the

2195
01:57:37,320 --> 01:57:40,240
Speaker 1: last month or two, I camera the timing they had

2196
01:57:40,280 --> 01:57:43,760
Speaker 1: lost twenty four dogs to a jaguar, which they thought

2197
01:57:43,760 --> 01:57:46,280
Speaker 1: to be a single jaguar had killed twenty four dogs

2198
01:57:46,280 --> 01:57:47,680
Speaker 1: I camera as the last month or two, and it

2199
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:49,160
Speaker 1: went on after we left, right.

2200
01:57:49,280 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 6: But this is also the reason why when you ask

2201
01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:54,000
Speaker 6: people in a village like that, like how much time

2202
01:57:54,040 --> 01:57:57,440
Speaker 6: you spend training your dogs? How much time you're going

2203
01:57:57,480 --> 01:57:59,400
Speaker 6: to spend training a dog that like tomorrow could get

2204
01:57:59,480 --> 01:58:02,240
Speaker 6: killed by a ja So you rely on some level

2205
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:05,480
Speaker 6: of like natural ability and instinct, which is probably also

2206
01:58:05,560 --> 01:58:08,360
Speaker 6: why hunting dogs can be really great there but also

2207
01:58:08,480 --> 01:58:11,200
Speaker 6: really frustrating because they don't have much training. You're just

2208
01:58:11,280 --> 01:58:13,240
Speaker 6: hoping for a good one. When you do get a

2209
01:58:13,240 --> 01:58:15,600
Speaker 6: good one, you breed them and you everyone wants the

2210
01:58:15,600 --> 01:58:19,440
Speaker 6: puppies because they're hoping that one's natural abilities of hunting,

2211
01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:22,200
Speaker 6: you know, kind of pan out, but you don't have

2212
01:58:22,240 --> 01:58:25,200
Speaker 6: three years because they might get killed by jaguar tomorrow.

2213
01:58:25,280 --> 01:58:27,840
Speaker 6: So that's a lot of training investment to put into

2214
01:58:28,080 --> 01:58:31,480
Speaker 6: the dog that's going to get killed tomorrow. So I

2215
01:58:31,520 --> 01:58:34,720
Speaker 6: think the use of hunting dogs is highly correlated to

2216
01:58:34,760 --> 01:58:37,480
Speaker 6: like what pray you're going after, the environment that you're

2217
01:58:37,480 --> 01:58:41,640
Speaker 6: in that determines how useful a hunting dog may or

2218
01:58:41,680 --> 01:58:43,640
Speaker 6: may not be, and a lot of places where you

2219
01:58:43,680 --> 01:58:47,800
Speaker 6: read Ethnografyorth no history of hunting dogs. You know, the

2220
01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:51,160
Speaker 6: use of hunting dogs is like critical to their economy.

2221
01:58:51,440 --> 01:58:54,400
Speaker 6: They can't go out and take the number of animals

2222
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:56,920
Speaker 6: that they could they were doing it by themselves. Or

2223
01:58:57,080 --> 01:58:58,680
Speaker 6: you know, you have a single guy who's trying to

2224
01:58:58,680 --> 01:59:00,560
Speaker 6: feed his family and he can go out maybe take

2225
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:03,240
Speaker 6: down one small animal, but with a pack of dogs,

2226
01:59:03,680 --> 01:59:05,720
Speaker 6: he can corral an animal and then kill it and

2227
01:59:06,360 --> 01:59:08,400
Speaker 6: make a much bigger kill or something like that. So

2228
01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:11,400
Speaker 6: you know, there are these kind of variations based on

2229
01:59:11,440 --> 01:59:14,680
Speaker 6: what prey you're going after. Or you know, your dogs

2230
01:59:15,080 --> 01:59:18,160
Speaker 6: make it eight nine years with productive hunting, but if

2231
01:59:18,200 --> 01:59:21,080
Speaker 6: they're an environment where mountain lions are going after him,

2232
01:59:21,160 --> 01:59:23,680
Speaker 6: or jaguar or something like that, wolves going after them

2233
01:59:23,760 --> 01:59:25,680
Speaker 6: or something like that. Maybe you wouldn't put the time

2234
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:29,120
Speaker 6: and effort into the training if you're losing dogs more

2235
01:59:29,160 --> 01:59:30,200
Speaker 6: regularly or something like.

2236
01:59:30,120 --> 01:59:34,880
Speaker 5: That, they concentrate more on quantity.

2237
01:59:35,160 --> 01:59:37,920
Speaker 6: Right with your dogs, do you guys? Are they trained

2238
01:59:37,920 --> 01:59:42,280
Speaker 6: by humans only or is it reliance on other dogs.

2239
01:59:42,080 --> 01:59:47,440
Speaker 5: That's the two methods that that coon dogs use. But

2240
01:59:47,480 --> 01:59:51,520
Speaker 5: they're so independent now. That's when I was training in mine.

2241
01:59:51,640 --> 01:59:54,080
Speaker 5: I was training with a friend of mine. He had

2242
01:59:54,080 --> 01:59:57,560
Speaker 5: an older dog, well established and straight coon dog. He

2243
01:59:57,600 --> 02:00:01,240
Speaker 5: didn't treat possums or anything, and we'd cut them loose together,

2244
02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:05,680
Speaker 5: but they would after one hundred and fifty two hundred

2245
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:08,840
Speaker 5: yards of my dog following him around, he would just

2246
02:00:09,000 --> 02:00:12,000
Speaker 5: break off on his own and then and that independence

2247
02:00:12,040 --> 02:00:14,080
Speaker 5: has been bred into him a lot because of the

2248
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:16,920
Speaker 5: competition hunting where.

2249
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:22,240
Speaker 1: Oh, because they got he's got to score. You don't

2250
02:00:22,280 --> 02:00:24,960
Speaker 1: want like a you don't want to tag along dog right.

2251
02:00:24,760 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 5: Because because of who If he's second to the tree,

2252
02:00:27,840 --> 02:00:30,040
Speaker 5: then he's his points are or less.

2253
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:33,000
Speaker 1: But if he goes and does his own thing, he

2254
02:00:33,080 --> 02:00:36,760
Speaker 1: gets the same prioritize dog that doesn't like peers. That's

2255
02:00:36,760 --> 02:00:37,680
Speaker 1: more independent.

2256
02:00:37,760 --> 02:00:40,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, And what is the like through rate? If you

2257
02:00:40,960 --> 02:00:44,840
Speaker 6: have a litter of six pups, how many of those

2258
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:47,600
Speaker 6: six pups and the dogs you're talking about turn out

2259
02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:47,800
Speaker 6: to be.

2260
02:00:48,600 --> 02:00:52,520
Speaker 5: There's a guy that had a the who's the grandfather

2261
02:00:52,840 --> 02:00:56,720
Speaker 5: of my dog? And that dog was like one of

2262
02:00:57,560 --> 02:01:00,720
Speaker 5: ten or twelve, and it was the rest of them

2263
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:03,000
Speaker 5: are nothing, And this dog was an absolute world beater.

2264
02:01:04,520 --> 02:01:09,680
Speaker 5: They he bred him with another world beaten female, a

2265
02:01:09,800 --> 02:01:12,880
Speaker 5: whole litter of puppies that you would think would be dynamos.

2266
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:17,000
Speaker 5: None of them are worth anything, bred them again the

2267
02:01:17,040 --> 02:01:21,320
Speaker 5: next time, and maybe three out of ten were world beaters.

2268
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:24,360
Speaker 5: So it's just, you know, there's a lot of math

2269
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:26,840
Speaker 5: that goes in there that nobody understands, because it's not

2270
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:31,440
Speaker 5: always best and best bread together make the best, and

2271
02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:35,400
Speaker 5: it just doesn't work that way. And I can't answer

2272
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:40,320
Speaker 5: why that is. But you would think the same. And

2273
02:01:40,480 --> 02:01:43,440
Speaker 5: it's like me and my brothers, we got the same

2274
02:01:43,480 --> 02:01:45,360
Speaker 5: mom and the same daddy. I'm the only pretty one

2275
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 5: out of the whole brunch.

2276
02:01:47,920 --> 02:01:56,400
Speaker 1: So it's the same thing. So didn't Jerry Clark call

2277
02:01:56,440 --> 02:02:00,240
Speaker 1: you pretty? He did, so you're a pretty boy. Put

2278
02:02:00,280 --> 02:02:02,960
Speaker 1: him in the whole New life. Did he say it

2279
02:02:03,040 --> 02:02:05,840
Speaker 1: like how like say a clown like a like like

2280
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:09,560
Speaker 1: a you know, like a creepy way like a grandpa. Okay,

2281
02:02:10,480 --> 02:02:12,840
Speaker 1: not like you know what I'm saying. No, like no,

2282
02:02:14,480 --> 02:02:15,640
Speaker 1: all right, Ronnie, take it away.

2283
02:02:15,920 --> 02:02:17,920
Speaker 7: Uh Well, I just want to thank you for letting

2284
02:02:17,920 --> 02:02:20,680
Speaker 7: me come out to do a little advertising. Yep, you

2285
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:22,120
Speaker 7: let me come out a couple of years ago and

2286
02:02:22,160 --> 02:02:25,880
Speaker 7: we released the Upland Institute the Pointing Dog Training series,

2287
02:02:25,920 --> 02:02:29,080
Speaker 7: which is done very well. And I do get notes

2288
02:02:29,120 --> 02:02:32,880
Speaker 7: from emails. Heard about you on Meat Eater podcast. Great

2289
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:35,920
Speaker 7: finally got a puppy and they remembered it. So I

2290
02:02:36,000 --> 02:02:38,840
Speaker 7: called you up and I said, uh, I got into

2291
02:02:38,840 --> 02:02:41,760
Speaker 7: the project I'm working on right now, and I had

2292
02:02:41,760 --> 02:02:46,160
Speaker 7: so much fun, like getting into the not that I'm

2293
02:02:46,160 --> 02:02:49,160
Speaker 7: the editor, but sitting in on the editing process and

2294
02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:52,360
Speaker 7: watching how you could just take a bunch of let's

2295
02:02:52,400 --> 02:02:55,440
Speaker 7: just say b roll, even if it's on purpose, and

2296
02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:58,800
Speaker 7: you could turn it into something. And Matt, my partner,

2297
02:02:59,280 --> 02:03:03,040
Speaker 7: he loves the job of editing, and he kind of said,

2298
02:03:03,040 --> 02:03:06,360
Speaker 7: what can we do down the road? He said, he said,

2299
02:03:06,400 --> 02:03:08,680
Speaker 7: I you know, we're burning He's burning the candle at

2300
02:03:08,680 --> 02:03:11,520
Speaker 7: both ends. But he said, what can we do? And

2301
02:03:11,560 --> 02:03:14,000
Speaker 7: he's got a day job right as an editor, you know,

2302
02:03:14,120 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 7: but he he would like to do this full time.

2303
02:03:16,600 --> 02:03:20,600
Speaker 7: I'm like, boy, I mean we could do I didn't

2304
02:03:20,600 --> 02:03:23,200
Speaker 7: want to do a different training video because I already

2305
02:03:23,240 --> 02:03:27,040
Speaker 7: did a training video and it came to me like

2306
02:03:27,960 --> 02:03:32,000
Speaker 7: I get so I filter so many people's emails, Ronnie,

2307
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:35,240
Speaker 7: I'm getting my next dog, Ronnie, I'm getting my first dog, Ronnie.

2308
02:03:35,280 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 7: I'm I went from German short hairs and I want

2309
02:03:38,600 --> 02:03:41,240
Speaker 7: to try one of your big, long eared broncos. So

2310
02:03:41,320 --> 02:03:44,360
Speaker 7: I realized it's just like, until you've been in it,

2311
02:03:45,200 --> 02:03:47,280
Speaker 7: there's a lot of people just will never really get

2312
02:03:47,280 --> 02:03:51,240
Speaker 7: into the minutia of how dogs are bred, how they're selected,

2313
02:03:51,320 --> 02:03:54,200
Speaker 7: how it happened. So we decided to build this series

2314
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:56,280
Speaker 7: that were filmed. In the middle of filming, We've got

2315
02:03:56,280 --> 02:04:00,520
Speaker 7: a couple episodes done. It's called Behind the Dog because

2316
02:04:00,560 --> 02:04:02,320
Speaker 7: that's kind of like, if you're a dog person, everything

2317
02:04:02,320 --> 02:04:04,400
Speaker 7: you do is behind the dog, or in.

2318
02:04:04,400 --> 02:04:07,280
Speaker 1: The case of your dog, in front of the dog in.

2319
02:04:07,200 --> 02:04:09,360
Speaker 2: The one dog's case, right exactly.

2320
02:04:10,120 --> 02:04:13,440
Speaker 7: So yeah, so Behind the Dog films what we're doing

2321
02:04:13,560 --> 02:04:16,880
Speaker 7: is we're trying to find let's say the top tier

2322
02:04:17,000 --> 02:04:20,320
Speaker 7: breeders of every breed in this country, and there's a

2323
02:04:20,320 --> 02:04:20,760
Speaker 7: lot of them.

2324
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:21,080
Speaker 1: Right.

2325
02:04:21,960 --> 02:04:23,840
Speaker 7: We did one with a short hair a German short

2326
02:04:23,840 --> 02:04:26,920
Speaker 7: hair pointer breeder. We're working on editing one that we

2327
02:04:26,960 --> 02:04:29,960
Speaker 7: did with a Vima. I'm gonna do it right a

2328
02:04:31,120 --> 02:04:31,920
Speaker 7: or a weimer Reiner.

2329
02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:35,640
Speaker 1: How it was supposed to go yea wema, yeah, and

2330
02:04:35,760 --> 02:04:37,760
Speaker 1: why Wagner group in the group.

2331
02:04:37,800 --> 02:04:41,680
Speaker 7: Exactly exactly, And then of course, you know, a more

2332
02:04:41,720 --> 02:04:45,640
Speaker 7: difficult one will be And we found a labrador breeder,

2333
02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:49,040
Speaker 7: and there's so many labradors in this country. But what

2334
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:51,440
Speaker 7: we're trying to do is find the breeders that put

2335
02:04:51,440 --> 02:04:54,839
Speaker 7: the most back into the breed god, from health testing

2336
02:04:54,840 --> 02:04:57,960
Speaker 7: to hunt testing and an actual hunting. Like there's never

2337
02:04:58,000 --> 02:05:01,120
Speaker 7: going to be someone who just shows their dogs in

2338
02:05:01,120 --> 02:05:03,960
Speaker 7: a show ring, but they might hunt them, show them

2339
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:07,840
Speaker 7: and sign up for every possible health test they could

2340
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:11,520
Speaker 7: because they're so concerned that like, look, I'm selling these

2341
02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:13,400
Speaker 7: dogs for a lot of money. Now, remember what a

2342
02:05:13,400 --> 02:05:16,800
Speaker 7: dog costs twenty even twenty years ago, we spent two

2343
02:05:16,880 --> 02:05:20,360
Speaker 7: hundred dollars on a dog or five hundred maybe, And

2344
02:05:21,080 --> 02:05:23,360
Speaker 7: so we want to kind of bring these what are not.

2345
02:05:23,280 --> 02:05:25,680
Speaker 1: Don't give me the extremes, but what's happened to that

2346
02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:28,839
Speaker 1: price two to five twenty years ago has become two thousand.

2347
02:05:29,920 --> 02:05:33,560
Speaker 7: That would be easy right in the middle, two thousand dollars.

2348
02:05:34,200 --> 02:05:37,440
Speaker 3: There was an auction recently, like an outfitter auction down

2349
02:05:37,440 --> 02:05:41,480
Speaker 3: in New Mexico, a mule and hound auction. I don't

2350
02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:43,680
Speaker 3: know what the mules went for, but there were a

2351
02:05:43,720 --> 02:05:47,920
Speaker 3: couple of dogs that broke twenty thousand for lionhounds. Yeah, wow,

2352
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:48,880
Speaker 3: dry ground line.

2353
02:05:48,920 --> 02:05:51,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's every day in the coon hound world.

2354
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:54,080
Speaker 7: So that's what we're That's like kind of our Grail quest.

2355
02:05:54,160 --> 02:05:57,440
Speaker 7: We we want to find the top tier breeders and

2356
02:05:57,520 --> 02:06:02,160
Speaker 7: eventually even go down to Terry or colleagues. Got ways

2357
02:06:02,160 --> 02:06:03,880
Speaker 7: to go for you get there. We got but it

2358
02:06:03,920 --> 02:06:05,760
Speaker 7: gives me something to do. I'm retired, so I can

2359
02:06:05,880 --> 02:06:07,000
Speaker 7: just drive around the country.

2360
02:06:07,080 --> 02:06:08,720
Speaker 1: Well, let me just chime in them out. So what

2361
02:06:08,800 --> 02:06:10,880
Speaker 1: I thought was that what one did was I looking

2362
02:06:10,920 --> 02:06:11,640
Speaker 1: I can't remember.

2363
02:06:11,680 --> 02:06:14,000
Speaker 7: Were looking at the one about the Germany short hair breeders.

2364
02:06:14,040 --> 02:06:19,600
Speaker 1: So so Ronnie's at a breeder right, kind of doing

2365
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:23,080
Speaker 1: a podcast. Yeah, and they're but they're showing so there

2366
02:06:23,080 --> 02:06:26,360
Speaker 1: they have all these dogs running around different age classes,

2367
02:06:26,400 --> 02:06:27,920
Speaker 1: and just this is just one of the many things

2368
02:06:27,920 --> 02:06:30,840
Speaker 1: in here, right is they stand one up. Okay, they

2369
02:06:30,840 --> 02:06:32,480
Speaker 1: stand one up on a pedestal. What do you call

2370
02:06:32,560 --> 02:06:32,880
Speaker 1: that thing?

2371
02:06:33,440 --> 02:06:34,440
Speaker 7: Just tap the platform.

2372
02:06:34,720 --> 02:06:37,000
Speaker 1: They stand one up on a platform, and they say,

2373
02:06:38,120 --> 02:06:40,520
Speaker 1: when I'm when I'm looking at these, here's what I'm

2374
02:06:40,520 --> 02:06:42,320
Speaker 1: looking for, very specific.

2375
02:06:43,000 --> 02:06:44,920
Speaker 7: The nose could this confirmation?

2376
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would stand this way, This should look like this.

2377
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:50,120
Speaker 1: This should look like this. So even if you weren't

2378
02:06:50,200 --> 02:06:53,480
Speaker 1: at even if you weren't going to that breeder, let's

2379
02:06:53,480 --> 02:06:56,800
Speaker 1: say you can't afford it or whatever you could, you

2380
02:06:56,880 --> 02:06:59,400
Speaker 1: still watch it and you'd be like, oh, okay, so

2381
02:06:59,440 --> 02:07:01,400
Speaker 1: when I go look at pops, I'm trying to select

2382
02:07:01,400 --> 02:07:04,160
Speaker 1: the pop from my neighbor, from the dog pound whatever.

2383
02:07:04,840 --> 02:07:08,839
Speaker 7: These are attributes that would be K nine attributes.

2384
02:07:08,920 --> 02:07:11,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'd be like, you don't know, and like you said,

2385
02:07:11,200 --> 02:07:13,200
Speaker 1: you don't know yet how it's gonna turn out. Maybe,

2386
02:07:13,400 --> 02:07:18,960
Speaker 1: but these are attributes that would be signifiers of some

2387
02:07:19,000 --> 02:07:21,520
Speaker 1: of the things you might want to look for in early.

2388
02:07:21,200 --> 02:07:25,040
Speaker 7: Selection, right, Yeah, and we will in some of the episodes.

2389
02:07:25,080 --> 02:07:27,080
Speaker 7: We'll get into it as deep as we did in

2390
02:07:27,080 --> 02:07:30,320
Speaker 7: the first one where we showed basically we took like

2391
02:07:30,360 --> 02:07:33,320
Speaker 7: a year old dog and then went backwards to a

2392
02:07:33,360 --> 02:07:36,040
Speaker 7: sixteen week old dog, then a twelve, then an eight,

2393
02:07:36,480 --> 02:07:39,640
Speaker 7: then a four, and what she did with these pups

2394
02:07:39,800 --> 02:07:44,440
Speaker 7: for confirmation, it's been done for decades. Another woman started

2395
02:07:44,480 --> 02:07:48,040
Speaker 7: this where they literally can pick the dog up by

2396
02:07:48,160 --> 02:07:51,400
Speaker 7: the by the under the collar and between the legs

2397
02:07:51,920 --> 02:07:54,320
Speaker 7: and just watch the way the legs hang. I mean,

2398
02:07:54,360 --> 02:07:56,040
Speaker 7: someone are going to walk like me, Steve, and you

2399
02:07:56,080 --> 02:07:58,880
Speaker 7: know how funny I walk right with my knees out. Well,

2400
02:08:00,600 --> 02:08:02,600
Speaker 7: a puppy will show you that same thing. If he's

2401
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:05,160
Speaker 7: gonna be cow howked, which is where they it would

2402
02:08:05,160 --> 02:08:08,280
Speaker 7: be knock kneed. If you were a person, you don't

2403
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:09,760
Speaker 7: want to find out that you're gonna have a cow

2404
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:13,520
Speaker 7: howk It's gonna run funny and eventually not be able

2405
02:08:13,520 --> 02:08:15,280
Speaker 7: to do the performance you want to do. It's gonna

2406
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:18,040
Speaker 7: wear out its back end, it's gonna wear out its joints,

2407
02:08:18,120 --> 02:08:21,120
Speaker 7: just like I did, you know, walking with my knees

2408
02:08:21,160 --> 02:08:24,360
Speaker 7: going up in two directions. So yeah, there's things you

2409
02:08:24,360 --> 02:08:25,920
Speaker 7: could learn. You don't have to be interested in the

2410
02:08:26,000 --> 02:08:28,800
Speaker 7: German short hair. You could watch what she's doing with

2411
02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:31,560
Speaker 7: that puppy and like, wow, I'm gonna do that next

2412
02:08:31,600 --> 02:08:34,520
Speaker 7: time I look for a dog. And then so, yeah,

2413
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:37,880
Speaker 7: it's like a We always interview the person at their

2414
02:08:37,880 --> 02:08:40,400
Speaker 7: home or their kennel or usually it's always both, of course.

2415
02:08:41,960 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 7: So we record a podcast just at a kitchen table,

2416
02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:47,800
Speaker 7: and then we film the whole time. We're doing it,

2417
02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:50,040
Speaker 7: like you're doing here. Now, we have cameras, two or.

2418
02:08:50,040 --> 02:08:53,280
Speaker 1: Three cameras film that and the hunts and everything.

2419
02:08:53,080 --> 02:08:55,520
Speaker 7: Right, And in that person's case, yeah, we hunted together

2420
02:08:55,920 --> 02:08:58,960
Speaker 7: that that prior season in North Dakota, so we use

2421
02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:01,240
Speaker 7: some of that footage when talking about how we met.

2422
02:09:01,400 --> 02:09:04,240
Speaker 7: You're actually watching our footage of our hunt in North.

2423
02:09:04,200 --> 02:09:06,920
Speaker 1: Dakota, and you learn, Like in that case, when I watch,

2424
02:09:06,960 --> 02:09:10,760
Speaker 1: you learn, why is hunting with this kind of dog?

2425
02:09:12,360 --> 02:09:14,320
Speaker 1: How is that different than other kinds of dogs? Meaning

2426
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:16,680
Speaker 1: what are some of the expectations if you think about

2427
02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:18,960
Speaker 1: a bird hunting dog, what are some of the expectations

2428
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:21,440
Speaker 1: of this breed, what are some of the expectations of

2429
02:09:21,440 --> 02:09:21,920
Speaker 1: that breed.

2430
02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:25,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I honestly, I think where the point I

2431
02:09:25,640 --> 02:09:28,160
Speaker 7: want to make to people is like a bird dog

2432
02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:30,240
Speaker 7: is pretty much a bird dog, just like a hound

2433
02:09:30,320 --> 02:09:33,200
Speaker 7: is pretty much a trailing hound. They have some that

2434
02:09:33,240 --> 02:09:35,360
Speaker 7: are a little better at big game, a little better

2435
02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:40,000
Speaker 7: at small game. But it's what the breeders put into it.

2436
02:09:39,760 --> 02:09:43,480
Speaker 7: It's the standards that they hold themselves to. And when

2437
02:09:43,480 --> 02:09:47,080
Speaker 7: I say standard, it's their breeding ethics. But every breed

2438
02:09:47,120 --> 02:09:49,120
Speaker 7: in this country now, And that's why I wanted to

2439
02:09:49,120 --> 02:09:52,280
Speaker 7: ask you Angel, like, if you had a dire wolf skull,

2440
02:09:52,560 --> 02:09:57,720
Speaker 7: so all dogs have forty two teeth, would juicy? Yeah,

2441
02:09:57,800 --> 02:10:01,600
Speaker 7: twenty two and twenty and or two and twenty up?

2442
02:10:03,360 --> 02:10:07,400
Speaker 7: Would you see teeth misalignments and old skulls, So that

2443
02:10:07,440 --> 02:10:08,840
Speaker 7: would indicate to me hell.

2444
02:10:08,760 --> 02:10:10,840
Speaker 1: Of a trivia question. Man, Damn it.

2445
02:10:12,680 --> 02:10:14,840
Speaker 3: Was Ronnie that yesterday. I even wrote it down in

2446
02:10:14,880 --> 02:10:17,280
Speaker 3: my notes that was going to use that in oh Fu.

2447
02:10:18,120 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody would have got it right.

2448
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:23,680
Speaker 7: Where a tiebreaker, but you also said that nobody would

2449
02:10:23,680 --> 02:10:25,320
Speaker 7: get it right, so it might not be hard.

2450
02:10:26,040 --> 02:10:27,720
Speaker 1: Was phenomenal tiebreaker material.

2451
02:10:28,440 --> 02:10:31,400
Speaker 7: What I wanted to ask Angel is like, if you found, uh,

2452
02:10:31,440 --> 02:10:33,120
Speaker 7: there was a dire wolf or a wolf or whatever

2453
02:10:33,600 --> 02:10:37,440
Speaker 7: with bad teeth, that's an indication of probably too much

2454
02:10:37,480 --> 02:10:40,840
Speaker 7: generational breeding. Possibly, Yeah, because if you had a dire

2455
02:10:40,880 --> 02:10:43,160
Speaker 7: wolf skull, how many of those exist out there.

2456
02:10:43,160 --> 02:10:44,760
Speaker 1: I don't even know. I'll tell you there's one hundred

2457
02:10:44,760 --> 02:10:45,480
Speaker 1: and seventy five of them.

2458
02:10:45,480 --> 02:10:50,120
Speaker 7: Oh there's Would they have any malclusions in their mouth?

2459
02:10:50,280 --> 02:10:50,560
Speaker 3: They do?

2460
02:10:50,680 --> 02:10:54,240
Speaker 6: They would too, Yeah, they haveclusions, they're missing molers, they

2461
02:10:54,280 --> 02:10:55,800
Speaker 6: have all sorts of.

2462
02:10:56,480 --> 02:10:59,200
Speaker 7: So all that is coming from that far back, I

2463
02:10:59,200 --> 02:11:02,000
Speaker 7: thought it was more of a last hundred years bringing.

2464
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:03,360
Speaker 1: Things from messing with them too much.

2465
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:05,320
Speaker 6: This is what we're trying to sort out right now,

2466
02:11:05,400 --> 02:11:07,520
Speaker 6: is that we think some of the things you're selecting

2467
02:11:07,560 --> 02:11:12,000
Speaker 6: for positively, like you know, a water dog, you want

2468
02:11:12,040 --> 02:11:14,200
Speaker 6: something with this type of coat, right, shoes, something that

2469
02:11:14,240 --> 02:11:16,840
Speaker 6: goes with this type of coat. But what trails along

2470
02:11:16,840 --> 02:11:19,360
Speaker 6: with it? The jeans that partner with that that you

2471
02:11:19,400 --> 02:11:22,560
Speaker 6: don't necessarily want but you're not thinking about. Come along for.

2472
02:11:22,560 --> 02:11:27,360
Speaker 1: The ride like bad hips, come along for the ride.

2473
02:11:27,600 --> 02:11:29,760
Speaker 7: I think we got to have you on an episode

2474
02:11:29,760 --> 02:11:32,520
Speaker 7: someday of Behind the Dog. Well, anyway, thank you, Steve.

2475
02:11:32,560 --> 02:11:34,560
Speaker 7: It's a It's all you have to do is go

2476
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:37,080
Speaker 7: to behind Dog Films dot com.

2477
02:11:37,080 --> 02:11:40,880
Speaker 1: Well, so how many when you launch? Like? How many?

2478
02:11:40,880 --> 02:11:42,360
Speaker 1: Tell me what ones you're gonna have done? Now?

2479
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:46,280
Speaker 7: Well, we have two completed. One of them was not

2480
02:11:46,320 --> 02:11:49,400
Speaker 7: a breeder specific, but it was a training video that

2481
02:11:49,440 --> 02:11:51,840
Speaker 7: we were shooting, and we really got into the weeds

2482
02:11:51,840 --> 02:11:57,000
Speaker 7: about how any good bird dog, especially duck dog obviously

2483
02:11:57,800 --> 02:12:00,640
Speaker 7: has to be comfortable with the water. Should just be

2484
02:12:00,680 --> 02:12:02,920
Speaker 7: another terrain to even your house dog.

2485
02:12:03,160 --> 02:12:04,960
Speaker 1: Right, if you go, you don't need to coax it

2486
02:12:05,000 --> 02:12:05,680
Speaker 1: at the shoreline.

2487
02:12:06,520 --> 02:12:08,280
Speaker 7: Dog on a walk and it won't cross the creek

2488
02:12:08,320 --> 02:12:10,160
Speaker 7: with you. Your kids aren't gonna let you finish the

2489
02:12:10,160 --> 02:12:15,200
Speaker 7: walk because the dog's like, well, but some dogs literally

2490
02:12:15,800 --> 02:12:17,040
Speaker 7: won't put a foot in water.

2491
02:12:17,600 --> 02:12:19,120
Speaker 1: So I know. I went down with her friend to

2492
02:12:19,120 --> 02:12:22,400
Speaker 1: swim at the creek yesterday and her friends got her

2493
02:12:22,440 --> 02:12:23,600
Speaker 1: dog in a life jacket.

2494
02:12:24,680 --> 02:12:25,320
Speaker 7: They don't need that.

2495
02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:27,720
Speaker 1: They don't need that. I said to her, I said,

2496
02:12:27,720 --> 02:12:29,640
Speaker 1: did she got dog? He's a life jacket. She's oil.

2497
02:12:29,720 --> 02:12:30,200
Speaker 1: She'll sink.

2498
02:12:33,160 --> 02:12:34,800
Speaker 3: That dog does not know how to swim.

2499
02:12:35,680 --> 02:12:39,480
Speaker 7: Does he swim like vertical? Yeah, that's not good.

2500
02:12:38,800 --> 02:12:40,760
Speaker 1: That's gonna wear all quick.

2501
02:12:40,880 --> 02:12:43,200
Speaker 7: But to answer your question, we did one with a

2502
02:12:43,200 --> 02:12:45,680
Speaker 7: breeder in Michigan that breeds German short airs. Yeah, we

2503
02:12:45,760 --> 02:12:48,640
Speaker 7: have a training one about the water. We're editing one

2504
02:12:48,680 --> 02:12:51,960
Speaker 7: currently with the Wine Mariner breed. Got it, Uh, we're

2505
02:12:52,000 --> 02:12:55,320
Speaker 7: going to what we're going to do. A wire haired

2506
02:12:55,360 --> 02:12:59,320
Speaker 7: pointing griffin breeder, and then a labraader, and then a

2507
02:12:59,360 --> 02:13:02,600
Speaker 7: poodle point breeder. Got it, poodle pointers, Not think of poodle,

2508
02:13:02,720 --> 02:13:05,480
Speaker 7: it's pu d e l. It's a German breed. We're

2509
02:13:05,480 --> 02:13:10,160
Speaker 7: gonna do that, I'm boise. So it's gonna be probably

2510
02:13:10,160 --> 02:13:13,920
Speaker 7: one a month until you know, we say, okay, Matt,

2511
02:13:14,000 --> 02:13:14,960
Speaker 7: quit your day job.

2512
02:13:16,040 --> 02:13:19,120
Speaker 1: And someday you might tackle the hounds. And oh absolutely.

2513
02:13:19,360 --> 02:13:22,960
Speaker 7: In fact, if Frank Gettings could be alive for long enough,

2514
02:13:23,400 --> 02:13:25,200
Speaker 7: I mean he might. But you also have to have

2515
02:13:25,200 --> 02:13:27,120
Speaker 7: the person that's good on the microphone too, which sure

2516
02:13:27,680 --> 02:13:30,720
Speaker 7: I always remember, like you had the first show Wild

2517
02:13:30,760 --> 02:13:33,200
Speaker 7: Within and you did that moose hunt and I specifically

2518
02:13:33,240 --> 02:13:35,320
Speaker 7: asked you how come you didn't have the guy on

2519
02:13:35,440 --> 02:13:38,200
Speaker 7: camera with you very much? And he says he just, well,

2520
02:13:38,320 --> 02:13:42,400
Speaker 7: come on, no, all right, Well, I'm just saying you

2521
02:13:42,480 --> 02:13:44,520
Speaker 7: have to find the right not just the right breeder,

2522
02:13:44,720 --> 02:13:46,040
Speaker 7: but the right conversationalist.

2523
02:13:46,200 --> 02:13:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2524
02:13:47,760 --> 02:13:50,440
Speaker 7: They can be great at what they do, but they

2525
02:13:50,800 --> 02:13:53,240
Speaker 7: don't convey it. So you got so I that's my

2526
02:13:53,360 --> 02:13:56,280
Speaker 7: goal is to find the people that can convey their passion.

2527
02:13:56,480 --> 02:13:59,320
Speaker 1: Sure, and then your area of expertise is birds.

2528
02:13:59,320 --> 02:14:02,560
Speaker 7: You like stuff with others, right, everything, everything that flies.

2529
02:14:02,960 --> 02:14:03,200
Speaker 1: Right.

2530
02:14:03,480 --> 02:14:05,640
Speaker 7: But that's why I want to you know, like the

2531
02:14:05,680 --> 02:14:07,120
Speaker 7: hounds is going to be a tough one to do.

2532
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:12,720
Speaker 7: You know, there there's houndsmen that don't follow any pedigree,

2533
02:14:13,600 --> 02:14:16,680
Speaker 7: like they'll just they'll breed another outside type of hound.

2534
02:14:16,720 --> 02:14:20,760
Speaker 7: There's what is there seven basic hounds m H five Yeah,

2535
02:14:21,040 --> 02:14:26,000
Speaker 7: saving seven. So if if Brent wanted to take his

2536
02:14:26,080 --> 02:14:30,720
Speaker 7: walk what is your reading tree and walker and he

2537
02:14:31,280 --> 02:14:37,600
Speaker 7: did it to Yanni's redbone or blue tech, that's the

2538
02:14:37,600 --> 02:14:40,720
Speaker 7: hound joke and they bring them together, they probably get

2539
02:14:40,760 --> 02:14:44,720
Speaker 7: the same money for him. Oh it's it's more of

2540
02:14:44,760 --> 02:14:45,480
Speaker 7: a sarcastic.

2541
02:14:45,600 --> 02:14:50,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mean, like you you like a walkers, you're

2542
02:14:50,040 --> 02:14:51,960
Speaker 1: down on red bones and bluetooth anything else?

2543
02:14:52,760 --> 02:14:59,640
Speaker 7: Right, not really, but only among friends, right, So the houndsman,

2544
02:14:59,800 --> 02:15:01,720
Speaker 7: Like for me, I'm gonna have to find the houndsman

2545
02:15:01,960 --> 02:15:06,680
Speaker 7: who probably has a ten generation pedigree on his dogs.

2546
02:15:07,160 --> 02:15:11,280
Speaker 7: And really collectively and consciously it's like no, no, no,

2547
02:15:11,320 --> 02:15:16,000
Speaker 7: her her, her grandma did the same thing. Literally stood

2548
02:15:16,000 --> 02:15:18,880
Speaker 7: into kennel, barked and made circles. And you'll see that

2549
02:15:19,080 --> 02:15:22,000
Speaker 7: follow in litters of dogs all of a sudden and

2550
02:15:22,160 --> 02:15:24,680
Speaker 7: briers like, oh my god, that's just like her great

2551
02:15:24,720 --> 02:15:29,640
Speaker 7: aunt drove me crazy and it just pops up. Right,

2552
02:15:29,720 --> 02:15:31,520
Speaker 7: So I'm going to have to find a hound breeders

2553
02:15:31,520 --> 02:15:34,360
Speaker 7: that are like you guys Yianni and Brent might.

2554
02:15:34,280 --> 02:15:35,960
Speaker 1: Have to help got his dog from the dog.

2555
02:15:36,040 --> 02:15:38,720
Speaker 7: Well, I'm not gonna go to the but you're meeting

2556
02:15:38,720 --> 02:15:41,440
Speaker 7: so many you know, houndsmen. There's got to be that

2557
02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:44,240
Speaker 7: houndsman out there that like knows that breed like the

2558
02:15:44,280 --> 02:15:47,240
Speaker 7: plots do like like like obviously I would go to

2559
02:15:47,280 --> 02:15:50,640
Speaker 7: Bob plot to learn about the plot hounds.

2560
02:15:51,600 --> 02:15:53,280
Speaker 1: I didn't know. The plots are still the plots.

2561
02:15:53,560 --> 02:15:58,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, the plots are the plots still yep from Johanna's plot.

2562
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times they come like the Dickenson's

2563
02:16:01,080 --> 02:16:05,000
Speaker 1: or something over time, right, really still the plots patrilineal descent.

2564
02:16:05,640 --> 02:16:08,960
Speaker 7: Well, obviously there's some you know, some coyotes and some

2565
02:16:09,040 --> 02:16:11,360
Speaker 7: other stuff probably happened.

2566
02:16:11,560 --> 02:16:13,840
Speaker 1: There's something in that, there's something in the woodpile.

2567
02:16:14,440 --> 02:16:18,320
Speaker 7: But for the most part, yes, yeah, like Clay would

2568
02:16:18,320 --> 02:16:20,440
Speaker 7: know all about Like Clay could lock me up with

2569
02:16:20,480 --> 02:16:21,240
Speaker 7: a bunch of good ones.

2570
02:16:21,720 --> 02:16:23,480
Speaker 1: So behind the dog dot.

2571
02:16:23,280 --> 02:16:25,080
Speaker 7: Com, behind the dog films dot.

2572
02:16:24,960 --> 02:16:26,640
Speaker 1: Com, behind the dog films dot com.

2573
02:16:26,640 --> 02:16:28,480
Speaker 7: I don't think we could get behind the dog for

2574
02:16:28,520 --> 02:16:29,040
Speaker 7: some reason.

2575
02:16:29,600 --> 02:16:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you look for u r ls.

2576
02:16:32,000 --> 02:16:34,320
Speaker 7: There was behind the chicken, behind the horse, behind the dog,

2577
02:16:34,400 --> 02:16:35,920
Speaker 7: behind the cat, like we kick it.

2578
02:16:36,080 --> 02:16:38,280
Speaker 1: U r L's getting hard to come by, man. That's

2579
02:16:38,280 --> 02:16:41,560
Speaker 1: why places now to make up words to be Hulu whatever.

2580
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:43,080
Speaker 1: You just make up words because you can't check it

2581
02:16:43,080 --> 02:16:44,920
Speaker 1: because nothing checks out anymore, right.

2582
02:16:44,959 --> 02:16:47,760
Speaker 7: Right, So, yeah, it's behind the dog films dot com

2583
02:16:48,480 --> 02:16:49,480
Speaker 7: and uh.

2584
02:16:49,320 --> 02:16:51,920
Speaker 1: And and upland instu is still kicking an asswer No.

2585
02:16:52,040 --> 02:16:54,920
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah, now that that's a that's a complete

2586
02:16:55,320 --> 02:16:58,440
Speaker 7: four and a half hour training course. Yeah, yeah, still

2587
02:16:58,480 --> 02:17:01,800
Speaker 7: available these Oh yeah, it'll be available till the internet

2588
02:17:01,840 --> 02:17:04,959
Speaker 7: blows up, got or till we hit the little button

2589
02:17:05,000 --> 02:17:07,879
Speaker 7: in the background it says disabled. No, you can download

2590
02:17:07,879 --> 02:17:11,160
Speaker 7: it yourself. It's not downloadable. Otherwise you could just give

2591
02:17:11,160 --> 02:17:14,120
Speaker 7: it to your friend. Yeah, this is this is a

2592
02:17:14,200 --> 02:17:17,000
Speaker 7: pay system right now. We charged four ninety nine to

2593
02:17:17,040 --> 02:17:21,200
Speaker 7: watch it, and we're not sure if that's the model

2594
02:17:21,240 --> 02:17:25,200
Speaker 7: it's going to stay at. Yeah, but literally, just to

2595
02:17:25,240 --> 02:17:27,320
Speaker 7: earn the money to keep going to the next town,

2596
02:17:28,200 --> 02:17:30,400
Speaker 7: we like we had to monetize it before it was

2597
02:17:30,440 --> 02:17:34,039
Speaker 7: big enough to monetize in another fashion. So, but it's

2598
02:17:34,120 --> 02:17:36,800
Speaker 7: it's honestly, it's I don't know, Yanna you you did?

2599
02:17:36,840 --> 02:17:38,080
Speaker 7: You get to watch the rest of it with.

2600
02:17:38,240 --> 02:17:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did, we did. If you like dogs, you're

2601
02:17:40,600 --> 02:17:42,600
Speaker 3: gonna love it. There's a bunch of shots that dogs

2602
02:17:42,640 --> 02:17:43,840
Speaker 3: running around all over there and.

2603
02:17:43,920 --> 02:17:45,400
Speaker 7: Some interesting conversation about that.

2604
02:17:45,800 --> 02:17:49,680
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, behind the Dogfilms dot com. That's it all right,

2605
02:17:49,720 --> 02:17:51,720
Speaker 1: and and then and then tell folks how to find

2606
02:17:51,720 --> 02:17:55,480
Speaker 1: yourself there real quick? Is there a preferred way? Texas

2607
02:17:55,520 --> 02:17:57,240
Speaker 1: A and M Texas A and M.

2608
02:17:57,360 --> 02:17:57,680
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2609
02:17:57,760 --> 02:17:59,840
Speaker 1: Do you want people to write in with all kinds

2610
02:17:59,879 --> 02:18:01,480
Speaker 1: of things like, hey, I got this one dog.

2611
02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:04,240
Speaker 6: I get a lot of interesting emails.

2612
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:07,959
Speaker 1: What's the thing you'd be most interested in hearing about

2613
02:18:07,560 --> 02:18:11,039
Speaker 1: if the museum had a dire wolf? Uh?

2614
02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:13,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, well I get a lot of people asking me

2615
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:14,879
Speaker 6: about dire wolves, are saying that they think they have

2616
02:18:14,959 --> 02:18:16,800
Speaker 6: dire wolf stuff at various museums.

2617
02:18:16,879 --> 02:18:19,480
Speaker 1: What's the most annoying email you get? This will help

2618
02:18:19,520 --> 02:18:20,599
Speaker 1: people not email.

2619
02:18:21,879 --> 02:18:25,520
Speaker 6: Like ancient alien dog.

2620
02:18:26,200 --> 02:18:27,640
Speaker 2: You don't want those theories.

2621
02:18:30,360 --> 02:18:33,199
Speaker 1: I'm listening to this show. Email is in an alien

2622
02:18:33,240 --> 02:18:34,920
Speaker 1: dog theory, Man.

2623
02:18:35,200 --> 02:18:37,160
Speaker 4: Do you like Steve though and explain what the theory

2624
02:18:37,200 --> 02:18:40,119
Speaker 4: would be actually, So, I.

2625
02:18:40,080 --> 02:18:43,600
Speaker 6: Get a lot of people saying that dogs are actually

2626
02:18:43,760 --> 02:18:48,400
Speaker 6: aliens that have come from the Dog Star Cirrus, and

2627
02:18:48,440 --> 02:18:51,960
Speaker 6: that that some genetic material has come out of the

2628
02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:59,200
Speaker 6: star arrived on Earth and that dogs have appeared from there.

2629
02:18:59,760 --> 02:19:08,640
Speaker 6: And I'm dumb for this is a thing. It's a thing.

2630
02:19:08,720 --> 02:19:12,000
Speaker 6: It must be like on the internet somewhere that the

2631
02:19:12,080 --> 02:19:13,120
Speaker 6: dog star is serious?

2632
02:19:13,280 --> 02:19:20,440
Speaker 3: Is you know a Westy and then that star? It

2633
02:19:20,560 --> 02:19:23,440
Speaker 3: just makes more sense the star.

2634
02:19:25,360 --> 02:19:25,520
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2635
02:19:25,560 --> 02:19:31,080
Speaker 1: The writer Joan Didion speaks about this, and this is

2636
02:19:31,160 --> 02:19:34,879
Speaker 1: pre internet. The writer Joan Didion and slouching towards Bethlehem.

2637
02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:39,320
Speaker 1: She talks about how some people cope with how much information.

2638
02:19:40,200 --> 02:19:45,120
Speaker 1: There's so much information, and you you face a fork

2639
02:19:45,160 --> 02:19:49,720
Speaker 1: in the road where you are interested in the subject,

2640
02:19:49,879 --> 02:19:55,520
Speaker 1: let's say like geopolitics, dogs, whatever, economy, economics. You go like, Man,

2641
02:19:55,760 --> 02:19:59,360
Speaker 1: I could take the fork that would be to just

2642
02:19:59,560 --> 02:20:03,840
Speaker 1: to try to digest and understand all of this information.

2643
02:20:05,080 --> 02:20:08,600
Speaker 1: Or I could take the fork where I know a

2644
02:20:08,640 --> 02:20:12,800
Speaker 1: little thing that no one else knows. Yeah, and that's

2645
02:20:12,879 --> 02:20:16,320
Speaker 1: really what's going on, And that's a seductive.

2646
02:20:15,800 --> 02:20:17,680
Speaker 6: Little fork dogs are aliens.

2647
02:20:17,879 --> 02:20:20,640
Speaker 1: That's where you get That's where so many conspiracy theories

2648
02:20:20,680 --> 02:20:24,240
Speaker 1: come from. Is you're just it's it's like there's insurmountable

2649
02:20:24,280 --> 02:20:27,960
Speaker 1: amounts of information and you're like, yeah, that seems like

2650
02:20:28,000 --> 02:20:31,360
Speaker 1: a lot of work. Yeah, I'm buying this dog star deal, yes,

2651
02:20:31,440 --> 02:20:34,640
Speaker 1: because that is just easy and then only I know it.

2652
02:20:34,879 --> 02:20:38,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, a lot of I get a lot of

2653
02:20:38,520 --> 02:20:43,520
Speaker 6: emails thought from dog people who are convinced they have

2654
02:20:43,600 --> 02:20:44,680
Speaker 6: it all figured out?

2655
02:20:45,040 --> 02:20:46,120
Speaker 1: Like do you call them dog people?

2656
02:20:46,280 --> 02:20:46,840
Speaker 6: Dog people?

2657
02:20:46,959 --> 02:20:47,160
Speaker 1: You know?

2658
02:20:47,879 --> 02:20:51,600
Speaker 6: Keeping keep emailing me, keep emailing me. I have some

2659
02:20:51,720 --> 02:20:53,280
Speaker 6: good theories in my inbox.

2660
02:20:53,480 --> 02:20:55,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so she doesn't want to hear about dog stars,

2661
02:20:55,680 --> 02:20:58,160
Speaker 1: but she doesn't want to hear I'm interesting.

2662
02:20:59,480 --> 02:21:02,800
Speaker 6: Give me every thing but dog stars. Yeah it.

2663
02:21:03,080 --> 02:21:05,480
Speaker 1: Can you get me a dire wolf skull? Anyhow? Anyway,

2664
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:06,920
Speaker 1: look at three D print?

2665
02:21:06,959 --> 02:21:07,360
Speaker 6: You want?

2666
02:21:08,000 --> 02:21:10,400
Speaker 1: Really you want? You want to take that? That's the

2667
02:21:10,400 --> 02:21:13,600
Speaker 1: best I can do? Yeah, yeah, I could.

2668
02:21:13,440 --> 02:21:14,960
Speaker 7: Go in the backyard and dig up some skull.

2669
02:21:17,760 --> 02:21:19,080
Speaker 6: We can just give you a wolf skull.

2670
02:21:19,200 --> 02:21:22,560
Speaker 1: No, no, I want a three D. If I can

2671
02:21:22,560 --> 02:21:24,040
Speaker 1: get one, I'd like to have a three D of

2672
02:21:24,080 --> 02:21:27,360
Speaker 1: a of a dire wolf yeah, oh, heads up, speaking

2673
02:21:27,360 --> 02:21:29,640
Speaker 1: of that, we have Krin. You haven't seen it yet.

2674
02:21:29,760 --> 02:21:32,800
Speaker 1: Hunter Spencer's working on a big octopus holding the gaff.

2675
02:21:34,360 --> 02:21:37,039
Speaker 1: So it's an octopus. He's got a gaff and he's

2676
02:21:37,040 --> 02:21:39,039
Speaker 1: got some shrimp tucked under his arms. Do a t

2677
02:21:39,120 --> 02:21:42,520
Speaker 1: shirt run if you've listened to pussing the pot, which

2678
02:21:42,560 --> 02:21:44,240
Speaker 1: is also really good on search.

2679
02:21:45,640 --> 02:21:49,640
Speaker 3: Dominate, So hind titty, listen to pot cattle, eat your

2680
02:21:49,680 --> 02:21:50,800
Speaker 3: nose whatever this one's.

2681
02:21:50,600 --> 02:21:57,039
Speaker 1: Going search all right, Well, thank you for joining, Thank

2682
02:21:57,040 --> 02:21:59,480
Speaker 1: you for great man. Yeah, Krin, how long were you

2683
02:21:59,480 --> 02:22:01,160
Speaker 1: talking about? Get the real dog expert?

2684
02:22:01,520 --> 02:22:02,160
Speaker 8: Like years?

2685
02:22:04,280 --> 02:22:08,760
Speaker 1: Dogs hundred? Yeah, he already took his head he's done.

2686
02:22:09,560 --> 02:22:13,039
Speaker 7: He's like, she doesn't know nothing about the blue shakes.

2687
02:22:14,080 --> 02:22:15,440
Speaker 1: He took his headset off. He's done.

2688
02:22:16,200 --> 02:22:17,959
Speaker 3: Any more funny than that, Come on.

2689
02:22:19,840 --> 02:22:24,080
Speaker 1: It was a headset drop. All right, thanks everybody.

2690
02:22:24,720 --> 02:22:29,840
Speaker 7: Oh r.

2691
02:22:35,440 --> 02:22:46,480
Speaker 6: O seal rey sho like silver in the sun. Right

2692
02:22:48,920 --> 02:22:54,320
Speaker 6: right alone, sweetheart.

2693
02:22:54,520 --> 02:22:59,600
Speaker 9: We don't beat this damn of course today, taking no

2694
02:23:00,200 --> 02:23:07,960
Speaker 9: HM and ride away. We're done beat this damned parsday,

2695
02:23:09,680 --> 02:23:12,560
Speaker 9: So take a new one and ride on.

2696
02:23:21,680 --> 02:23:21,720
Speaker 6: H