WEBVTT - Dr. Rock’s Taxonomy 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.156 Pushkin. It's nineteen sixty four. NBC News Inchorman David Brinkley 0:00:23.396 --> 0:00:25.956 has come to Boston to meet John Rock. 0:00:26.436 --> 0:00:29.636 Doctor Rock, who is seventy three years old, lives and 0:00:29.716 --> 0:00:33.796 works in Brookline, Massachusetts. Mainly he works at his clinic 0:00:33.996 --> 0:00:37.596 or center, devoted to the study of human reproduction and 0:00:37.676 --> 0:00:40.476 the treatment of problems in an area where, when you 0:00:40.556 --> 0:00:43.076 get down to it, remarkably little is known. 0:00:43.916 --> 0:00:47.596 John Rock the most famous physician in the United States, 0:00:47.996 --> 0:00:50.236 co inventor of one of the most important drugs in 0:00:50.316 --> 0:00:52.516 human history, the birth control pill. 0:00:53.076 --> 0:00:55.676 He went to the High School of Commerce in Boston, 0:00:55.956 --> 0:01:01.556 to Harvard, to Harvard Medical School, interned at Massachusetts General Hospital, 0:01:02.036 --> 0:01:05.276 directed for thirty years of fertility clinic at the Free 0:01:05.316 --> 0:01:08.676 Hospital for Women, and now goes to Mass every day 0:01:08.756 --> 0:01:10.956 at brook Plans Saint Mary's Church. 0:01:16.396 --> 0:01:19.836 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:01:20.156 --> 0:01:30.316 my podcast about things overlooked or Misunderstood. This is the 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:34.156 second of three episodes on how to Think Like a Jesuit. 0:01:35.636 --> 0:01:39.476 This one is about John Rock's Great Dilemma, a man 0:01:39.516 --> 0:01:42.156 who went to Mass every day at Saint Mary's Catholic 0:01:42.276 --> 0:01:46.516 Church and then helped create the pill, something his church 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:47.316 could not accept. 0:01:54.996 --> 0:01:57.476 One of the events that would shape my later life 0:01:57.516 --> 0:02:00.476 to a great degree was an experience I had with 0:02:00.756 --> 0:02:03.196 the cynic who was a cured in Marlborough. 0:02:03.796 --> 0:02:08.116 Rock is tall, distinguished, looks like Carry Grant. His interview 0:02:08.116 --> 0:02:11.036 with Brinkley was over how a century ago, so forgive 0:02:11.076 --> 0:02:12.836 the quality of the tape. 0:02:13.076 --> 0:02:16.236 I was just about fourteen and then walking out of 0:02:16.316 --> 0:02:20.356 Mass one Sunday when Father Finnick beckoned me and asked 0:02:20.396 --> 0:02:22.396 me if I would like to drive down with him 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:26.596 to visit old Folks home old children called the Profile. 0:02:27.436 --> 0:02:31.556 Father Finnick was a quiet and unobtrusive man. When he 0:02:31.636 --> 0:02:35.476 was holding forth at first Communion class or Confirmation class, 0:02:35.836 --> 0:02:38.636 he put across what he intended us to learn with 0:02:38.796 --> 0:02:41.996 clarity and vigor, so that much of it has remained 0:02:41.996 --> 0:02:43.116 with me all my life. 0:02:43.516 --> 0:02:46.036 At this point, NBC shows b roll of a horse 0:02:46.076 --> 0:02:48.676 and carriage, something Rock would have ridden in his youth, 0:02:49.236 --> 0:02:51.916 and if added sound effects, God bless them. 0:02:52.516 --> 0:02:56.316 We had never been more than just friendly, but somehow 0:02:56.716 --> 0:03:01.836 I remember quite distinctly that ride. He was sounding off saying, John, 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:06.596 always stick to your own conscience. Let no one ever 0:03:06.676 --> 0:03:09.116 keep it for you. 0:03:09.196 --> 0:03:12.356 It's clear as Rock tells that story that it has 0:03:12.396 --> 0:03:13.716 stayed with him his whole life. 0:03:14.796 --> 0:03:17.756 And just as I was beginning to get that, and 0:03:17.836 --> 0:03:20.796 then there was a moment's pause, and then he said, 0:03:21.396 --> 0:03:25.636 and when I say no one, I mean no one. 0:03:26.796 --> 0:03:29.516 I've never forgotten those words. 0:03:30.436 --> 0:03:33.116 So I just want to talk about him because I 0:03:33.156 --> 0:03:36.636 find him, as I'm sure you do, to be such 0:03:36.636 --> 0:03:39.476 a fascinating figure, extraordinary. 0:03:38.956 --> 0:03:43.436 Figure, really complicated. Really, I don't feel like I ever 0:03:43.556 --> 0:03:48.516 really understood him all those years in those papers. I 0:03:48.556 --> 0:03:51.116 feel like I understood him partly, but I don't feel 0:03:51.156 --> 0:03:53.236 like I ever completely understood him. 0:03:54.436 --> 0:03:57.876 I went to Pennsylvania Hospital in Philadelphia to talk to 0:03:57.876 --> 0:04:00.876 the two people who probably know more about John Rock 0:04:00.916 --> 0:04:04.996 than anyone else, Margaret Marsh and Wanda Ronner, who wrote 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:08.676 a book called The Fertility Doctor. It's the definitive account 0:04:08.756 --> 0:04:10.836 of Rock. You go first. 0:04:10.876 --> 0:04:14.996 I'm Margaret Marsh and I'm a university professor. That's a title, 0:04:15.356 --> 0:04:17.716 university professor at Records University. 0:04:18.076 --> 0:04:18.836 Yeah. 0:04:19.196 --> 0:04:23.276 I'm Wanda Runner and I'm a gynecologist. I work for 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:28.876 penn Medicine. I'm a professor of Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology, 0:04:29.036 --> 0:04:33.436 and I work at Pennsylvania Hospital and your sisters. 0:04:34.076 --> 0:04:36.236 Where did you guys grow up around here? Is that 0:04:36.276 --> 0:04:37.916 why you're in this We grew up. 0:04:37.796 --> 0:04:43.036 In Vineland, New Jersey. We grew up with our father's family, 0:04:43.156 --> 0:04:48.116 Italian Americans. We're the granddaughters of immigrants, and a lot 0:04:48.156 --> 0:04:49.876 of our family is still there in Vineland. 0:04:50.316 --> 0:04:55.196 Oh so, so, I'm assuming your Catholic or were many 0:04:55.236 --> 0:04:57.636 years ago, many years ago, I see, But this is 0:04:57.676 --> 0:04:59.876 not foreign territory for you, not at all to be 0:04:59.916 --> 0:05:04.476 talking about Catholics. Everyone in this episode is Catholic except 0:05:04.476 --> 0:05:06.356 for me. I'm a wannabe. 0:05:06.836 --> 0:05:09.436 Well. We always have this joke when people ask guess 0:05:09.436 --> 0:05:12.116 how we work so well together, and we always say 0:05:12.916 --> 0:05:15.436 I always say I'm the oldest sister, so I get 0:05:15.436 --> 0:05:18.156 to be the boss, and she says, I'm the younger sister, 0:05:18.436 --> 0:05:21.996 so I always get my way, Which it's true. 0:05:22.036 --> 0:05:22.716 It's true. 0:05:23.076 --> 0:05:26.516 The two of them spent years on John Rock, tracking 0:05:26.516 --> 0:05:30.956 down relatives and colleagues, slowly working their way through his papers. 0:05:31.596 --> 0:05:34.516 Rock's daughter told them that he had been undecided about 0:05:34.516 --> 0:05:37.636 what kind of medicine to practice, but then in the 0:05:37.676 --> 0:05:40.636 early nineteen hundreds he had a rotation as a medical 0:05:40.636 --> 0:05:44.756 student delivering babies in the Irish tenements of Boston. He 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:48.596 saw a wretched poverty, young women overwhelmed with five or 0:05:48.636 --> 0:05:52.196 six or seven children families. They could barely feed her clothes. 0:05:53.116 --> 0:05:59.716 The overwhelming sorrow he felt for the women and their 0:06:00.636 --> 0:06:04.396 difficult situations was what decided him to go into obstetrics 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:05.196 and gynecology. 0:06:06.116 --> 0:06:09.036 Rock founded the Fertility and Endocrine Clinic at the Free 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:12.276 Hospital for Women in Brookline, where he served the Irish 0:06:12.276 --> 0:06:15.356 poor of Boston through the difficult years of the Depression 0:06:15.716 --> 0:06:19.076 and the Second World War. He was never terribly interested 0:06:19.116 --> 0:06:20.836 in charging for his services. 0:06:21.276 --> 0:06:25.876 I think, and you know, okay, I love the man. Now, 0:06:25.956 --> 0:06:26.716 what can I say? 0:06:26.916 --> 0:06:31.436 I think of him as an unusual figure in medicine, 0:06:31.676 --> 0:06:35.716 But you know, he had that gift of being able to. 0:06:35.676 --> 0:06:38.116 Communicate with women from all different classes. 0:06:39.156 --> 0:06:42.596 One of Rock's friends was a researcher pen named Luigi Mastroianni, 0:06:42.956 --> 0:06:45.276 who was still alive when the sisters were doing their work. 0:06:45.876 --> 0:06:49.756 It was Luigi who said he would come out. This 0:06:49.916 --> 0:06:52.196 was whether it was a clinic patient or a private patient. 0:06:52.236 --> 0:06:55.116 He'd come out. He'd greet the patient, he'd walk her 0:06:55.156 --> 0:06:58.156 back in, sit her down, talk to her. 0:06:59.076 --> 0:07:03.236 And always direct, you know, not he would always have 0:07:03.276 --> 0:07:06.476 a direct conversation with the patient, you know, like directly 0:07:06.636 --> 0:07:09.716 look at them. 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.316 Not to push the Catholic thing too far, but it's 0:07:12.436 --> 0:07:15.676 very He has a touch of the parish priest in him, a. 0:07:15.676 --> 0:07:19.836 Touch, a touch that's really good. That did you grow 0:07:19.876 --> 0:07:20.676 up Catholic too? 0:07:21.196 --> 0:07:23.476 Like I said, I want to be Catholic, not the 0:07:23.516 --> 0:07:23.996 real thing. 0:07:24.316 --> 0:07:27.036 I think that's very I think that is. 0:07:29.316 --> 0:07:29.556 Good. 0:07:29.596 --> 0:07:32.716 Doctors always have a touch of the parish priest, or 0:07:32.756 --> 0:07:36.156 the minister, or the rabbi or because if you don't, 0:07:37.116 --> 0:07:38.116 you're less effective. 0:07:39.036 --> 0:07:41.156 And not to brag about my sister, but she does 0:07:41.276 --> 0:07:50.236 have the second highest patient satisfactory. 0:07:48.476 --> 0:07:52.916 That's all I all have. It's mandatory. 0:07:53.516 --> 0:07:54.876 She's very she's very good. 0:07:54.956 --> 0:07:55.116 Love. 0:07:55.236 --> 0:07:57.796 She's one of the most beloved parish. 0:07:59.036 --> 0:07:59.956 She's one of the most love. 0:08:00.196 --> 0:08:02.276 Your sister is allowed to boast about you. I don't 0:08:02.276 --> 0:08:04.156 know why you're why you're trying to stop her? 0:08:04.916 --> 0:08:05.196 Wait? 0:08:05.316 --> 0:08:11.676 Where were we got involved with birth control? Almost by accident. 0:08:12.356 --> 0:08:15.556 He was more interested in treating infertility, and in the 0:08:15.676 --> 0:08:19.036 nineteen fifties he started working with two hormones that had 0:08:19.116 --> 0:08:25.036 only just been isolated, estrogen and progesterone. What's his theory 0:08:25.436 --> 0:08:30.916 that progesterone and estrin might be useful in combating infertility? 0:08:31.716 --> 0:08:33.156 Okay, okay, I'll tell you. 0:08:33.196 --> 0:08:35.836 My conjecture was that, I think it came out of 0:08:35.876 --> 0:08:39.436 looking at the endometrium, you know, to seeing that some 0:08:39.596 --> 0:08:43.596 women did not have the secretory changes that would have 0:08:43.596 --> 0:08:45.836 been anticipated after ovulation. 0:08:46.836 --> 0:08:49.276 I think that makes sense because the way he would 0:08:49.316 --> 0:08:55.156 explain it, yes, was he said some women seemed to 0:08:55.196 --> 0:08:57.996 have underdeveloped. 0:08:58.556 --> 0:08:59.236 Systems. 0:08:59.996 --> 0:09:01.396 He said systems he used. 0:09:01.276 --> 0:09:07.676 Underdeveloped oh yes, reproductive systems. And he thought that this 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:14.596 underdevelopment was due to a problem with the hormones. And 0:09:14.756 --> 0:09:18.716 this was all observation. Remember, they didn't know anything. I mean, 0:09:18.756 --> 0:09:20.436 they didn't you know, they didn't know the kinds of 0:09:20.476 --> 0:09:22.916 things we know now, So it's all observationalized. And he 0:09:22.956 --> 0:09:26.276 would say, some of them get pregnant on their own, 0:09:26.916 --> 0:09:29.276 and then after they get pregnant, once on their own, 0:09:29.556 --> 0:09:31.756 their systems quote seemed to be developed. 0:09:31.956 --> 0:09:35.156 In the analogy of a car with a dead battery, Yeah, 0:09:35.236 --> 0:09:37.436 jumpstart the battery, and then after that the battery works. 0:09:37.516 --> 0:09:39.836 Yes, sort of what he's thinking, sort of, yes, yes. 0:09:41.316 --> 0:09:43.556 So that's how Rock got interested in the role of 0:09:43.596 --> 0:09:47.756 hormones in reproduction. Meanwhile, fifty miles away in Worcester, a 0:09:47.796 --> 0:09:50.996 scientist named Gregory Pinkus was working on the same idea, 0:09:51.196 --> 0:09:54.556 only he thought that estrogen and progesterone might actually work 0:09:54.596 --> 0:09:59.316 to prevent pregnancy. Pincus and Rock started doing research together, 0:09:59.716 --> 0:10:04.436 which is how the birth control pill came about. Pincus 0:10:04.636 --> 0:10:08.276 was the hard scientist. Rock ran the clinical trials. They 0:10:08.276 --> 0:10:10.396 took their data to the Food and Drug Administration in 0:10:10.436 --> 0:10:13.276 the nineteen fifties, asking it to approve the pill as 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:17.276 a prescription drug. The FDA dragged its feet, so Rock 0:10:17.316 --> 0:10:20.316 paid a personal visit. As he told David Brinkley in 0:10:20.356 --> 0:10:21.876 the NBC profile. 0:10:22.076 --> 0:10:24.676 When we went down, we hadn't a point where with 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:29.116 the director of FDA or something like that, because all 0:10:29.196 --> 0:10:33.476 the material had been sent to Washington and no response. 0:10:34.236 --> 0:10:37.796 Tall distinguished John Rock, the Catholic Kerry Grant, the most 0:10:37.796 --> 0:10:40.636 famous doctor in America, knocked on the man's door. 0:10:41.036 --> 0:10:44.756 Yeah, all material, the right stack of stuff was just 0:10:45.196 --> 0:10:48.876 and he hadn't even looked at it. So we talked 0:10:48.916 --> 0:10:51.116 about it, and he said, well he would go sow 0:10:51.196 --> 0:10:53.636 it as soon as he could. And I went over 0:10:53.676 --> 0:10:56.556 and then you have no time. 0:10:56.596 --> 0:11:01.156 You'll do it now, and they said all right, and 0:11:01.196 --> 0:11:03.116 so he signed to watch the call it. 0:11:03.276 --> 0:11:03.876 That was it. 0:11:04.716 --> 0:11:07.196 One of the two or three most important drugs of 0:11:07.236 --> 0:11:09.516 the twentieth century was approved because as one of the 0:11:09.596 --> 0:11:13.076 drugs inventors took the train to Washington, marched into the 0:11:13.156 --> 0:11:15.676 FDA and said, you'll do it now. 0:11:16.596 --> 0:11:23.676 That I probably the government in taking the final step, 0:11:24.516 --> 0:11:26.996 but we knew it was all right. I mean, I 0:11:27.196 --> 0:11:29.636 was convinced, but my conscience was clear about that. 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:34.996 How much do you love John Rock? But now John 0:11:35.076 --> 0:11:41.196 Rock has a problem. He's helped create the world's greatest contraceptive, 0:11:41.596 --> 0:11:44.356 and yet he's a devout Roman Catholic and his church 0:11:44.396 --> 0:11:50.196 doesn't believe in contraception. Consider The Costy canoeby People Encyclical 0:11:50.236 --> 0:11:54.236 of nineteen thirty. In it, Pope Pious the eleventh declared 0:11:54.276 --> 0:11:58.676 that and a quote, any use whatsoever of matrimony exercise 0:11:58.836 --> 0:12:02.876 in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated 0:12:02.916 --> 0:12:06.556 in its natural power to generate life is an offense 0:12:06.716 --> 0:12:09.476 against the law of God and of nature, and those 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:12.436 who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of 0:12:12.476 --> 0:12:17.836 a grave sin. The act is deliberately frustrated in its 0:12:17.916 --> 0:12:21.836 natural power to generate life. That's what a contraceptive does. 0:12:22.276 --> 0:12:25.276 And what is John Rock's birth control pill. It is 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:33.276 a pill that deliberately frustrates the natural power to generate life. 0:12:39.396 --> 0:12:43.156 Let's run through John Rock's options. He could renounce his 0:12:43.236 --> 0:12:46.076 work on the pill and accept the teaching of the church. 0:12:46.476 --> 0:12:49.156 Only he's not going to do that, is he He 0:12:49.236 --> 0:12:51.356 remembers what his priest told him when he was a boy, 0:12:51.916 --> 0:12:55.636 John always stick to your own conscience. Let no one 0:12:55.716 --> 0:12:58.636 ever keep it for you. Margaret Marsha and Wander ron 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:00.916 Or tell the story in their book of when Rock 0:13:01.076 --> 0:13:03.516 was nineteen and he got a job with the United 0:13:03.556 --> 0:13:07.156 Fruit Company in Guatemala. He was responsible for a group 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:10.556 of Jamaican migrant workers and United Fruit decided to cut 0:13:10.596 --> 0:13:14.836 everyone's wages. And who did Rock support his workers? 0:13:15.836 --> 0:13:18.476 He just defied all the bosses that United Fruit and 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:22.076 he said, they don't need a wage cut. There's no 0:13:22.116 --> 0:13:24.196 reason for a wagecot. I'm not cutting the wages on 0:13:24.236 --> 0:13:28.316 my farm. Kind of thinny. Of course, they cut the 0:13:28.356 --> 0:13:31.076 wages on his farm. Then there's this huge strike and 0:13:31.156 --> 0:13:35.236 he says, well, he rights to the president of the company, 0:13:35.276 --> 0:13:38.676 say this is ridiculous. If you were here, you would 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:41.316 know that this is wrong. They don't need a wage cut. 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:45.476 And then there's the strike and one of the Jamaican 0:13:45.516 --> 0:13:49.236 workers is very gravely injured and two of the others aren't. 0:13:49.516 --> 0:13:54.356 He's like nineteen years old. He wades into this wildcat strike, 0:13:55.916 --> 0:14:01.116 gets the injured men, brings them to the hospital. And 0:14:01.716 --> 0:14:06.236 you wonder, where does a nineteen year old who's probably 0:14:06.276 --> 0:14:11.076 never had a deep thought about racial injustice in his life, 0:14:11.596 --> 0:14:13.516 where does he get that reservoir? 0:14:15.076 --> 0:14:19.556 John Rock always kept his own conscience. Many years later, 0:14:19.716 --> 0:14:22.276 in his dilemma over the church and the birth control pill, 0:14:22.636 --> 0:14:25.636 he had another option. Of course, he could leave the church. 0:14:26.276 --> 0:14:28.956 Lots of people have left the Catholic Church over disagreements 0:14:29.036 --> 0:14:32.396 with its teachings. But Rock can't leave the Catholic Church. 0:14:32.876 --> 0:14:33.596 Are you kidding me? 0:14:34.636 --> 0:14:38.556 Leaving Catholicism would have I don't think he would have 0:14:38.556 --> 0:14:39.556 ever thought of it. 0:14:39.996 --> 0:14:42.436 Well, I noticed there was a little line that you 0:14:42.516 --> 0:14:45.196 quoted from my I think one of his diaries about 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:47.356 a day where he said he attended Mass in three 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:51.916 different churches in one day. Yeah, yeah, so that gives 0:14:51.916 --> 0:14:53.796 you a flavor of I suppose. 0:14:53.396 --> 0:14:56.796 The culture his mother was to vow. His mother was 0:14:56.876 --> 0:15:00.116 very different about Yeah. One of my colleagues, who's a 0:15:00.276 --> 0:15:04.876 James Joyce scholar, told me about a line in one 0:15:04.916 --> 0:15:08.076 of James Joyce's book where the hero and his friend 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:11.436 are walking around. Then one of them is saying to 0:15:11.516 --> 0:15:14.876 the other one, I've lost my faith. Man, I've lost 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:17.916 my faith. And so the other one says, are you 0:15:17.956 --> 0:15:21.836 going to become a Protestant? And he says, I lost 0:15:21.876 --> 0:15:24.556 my faith? Man, I didn't tell you I lost my mind. 0:15:26.236 --> 0:15:28.796 And that's very John Rock. So he's not going to 0:15:28.836 --> 0:15:31.236 put his head down and go along. And he's not 0:15:31.356 --> 0:15:34.436 going to abandon the church. That leaves only one option. 0:15:35.196 --> 0:15:37.636 He's going to stay and try to convince the church 0:15:37.716 --> 0:15:40.676 to change its mind. Now, how do you do that 0:15:40.796 --> 0:15:43.916 if you're a devout Catholic in the nineteen sixties. The 0:15:43.996 --> 0:15:49.596 answer is you think like a Jesuit. Let's leave John 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:51.636 Rock for a moment and let me run a thought 0:15:51.636 --> 0:15:55.876 experiment by you. It comes out of a conversation I 0:15:55.916 --> 0:15:59.396 had with a scientist named Kurt Barnhardt. He's a professor 0:15:59.476 --> 0:16:02.996 at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center in Philadelphia, an 0:16:03.036 --> 0:16:08.196 obgyn who does research in reproductive biology. Barnhardt's kind of 0:16:08.196 --> 0:16:11.276 a modern day version of John Rock, only now we 0:16:11.396 --> 0:16:13.636 know a lot more about female reproduction than we did 0:16:13.636 --> 0:16:14.756 in the nineteen sixties. 0:16:15.596 --> 0:16:17.636 I mean to insult you with a student level lecture, 0:16:17.676 --> 0:16:20.156 but you know progesterone is pulling the plug out from 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:22.036 the street to turn the lights off in your house. 0:16:22.836 --> 0:16:25.836 It's not turning the lamp off on your bedstands. 0:16:26.116 --> 0:16:28.596 Yeah, we're still dropped, in other words, in a relatively 0:16:28.716 --> 0:16:31.596 crude conceptual model about how to prevent. 0:16:31.716 --> 0:16:34.076 Yeah, right, right, And it would be better if you 0:16:34.076 --> 0:16:37.236 could prevent ovulation. I mean the home run I'll share 0:16:37.236 --> 0:16:40.436 the Nobel Prize with you would be there's an attrisia 0:16:40.556 --> 0:16:44.076 of eggs with women's aging. If I could stop women's 0:16:44.116 --> 0:16:46.996 eggs from growing and not losing them, not only would 0:16:46.996 --> 0:16:48.756 I prevent I would allow you to get pregnant when 0:16:48.756 --> 0:16:51.236 you want. I would remove the biological clock and you 0:16:51.236 --> 0:16:53.836 could get pregnant at sixty right. 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:57.556 So you mean you could decouple the aging of a 0:16:57.596 --> 0:16:59.996 woman's eggs from the regular aging process. 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:00.196 Is that? 0:17:00.196 --> 0:17:00.676 What is that? 0:17:00.836 --> 0:17:03.316 Theoretically? I mean, lucularly, if woman is born with all 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:05.276 the eggs that she ever makes and they're all sitting 0:17:05.276 --> 0:17:07.916 in the ovary, and what's really neat is and we 0:17:07.916 --> 0:17:10.076 don't understand this. But in one month, a group of 0:17:10.076 --> 0:17:13.236 eggs starts growing and competing. That's the one that ovulates, 0:17:13.276 --> 0:17:15.436 and all the other ones die off. When you run 0:17:15.476 --> 0:17:18.156 out of groups, you run out of menopause. But we 0:17:18.196 --> 0:17:23.436 don't understand what tells the group to grow. So if 0:17:23.436 --> 0:17:26.556 we could say, don't grow your follicle this month, throw 0:17:26.596 --> 0:17:27.476 it next. 0:17:27.196 --> 0:17:31.916 Month, putting it on pause. Right, a woman is born 0:17:31.956 --> 0:17:34.396 with a fixed number of eggs, you don't make any 0:17:34.436 --> 0:17:37.316 new ones. By puberty, you might have three hundred to 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:40.356 four hundred thousand eggs, and every month, like clockwork, you 0:17:40.436 --> 0:17:43.396 lose about a thousand of them. That's the iron logic 0:17:43.516 --> 0:17:47.316 of female fertility. But Barnhardt says, we might have found 0:17:47.356 --> 0:17:49.596 a drug that would allow a woman to stop the clock, 0:17:50.116 --> 0:17:53.836 to hit pause. It's being developed by several of his colleagues, 0:17:54.116 --> 0:17:57.876 Kara Goldman at Northwestern among them. It's called m tour. 0:17:58.796 --> 0:18:02.556 Now understand that this approach, under the best of circumstances, 0:18:03.036 --> 0:18:06.276 is years and years away from ever becoming available. That's 0:18:06.316 --> 0:18:09.876 why this is a thought experiment. So here's the question. 0:18:10.476 --> 0:18:12.236 Is mTOR a contraceptive. 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:17.516 I wouldn't pitch it as contraception. I wouldn't I would. 0:18:17.596 --> 0:18:21.916 I would pitch it as delay, you know words. It's 0:18:21.956 --> 0:18:25.236 not like I'm trying to not get pregnant today by 0:18:25.316 --> 0:18:29.996 need a contraceptive, right, I mean no, let's gout. Wow, 0:18:30.036 --> 0:18:31.596 this is interesting, right. 0:18:32.156 --> 0:18:35.076 Because I'm thinking you're, you know, up against the exact 0:18:35.116 --> 0:18:39.076 same dilemma John Rock was up against, which is you know, 0:18:39.196 --> 0:18:42.396 could you, for example, could you with the How would 0:18:42.396 --> 0:18:45.556 the Catholic Church view such a measure? They're they're opposed 0:18:45.556 --> 0:18:47.876 to artificial contraception, but what if this is not? Is 0:18:47.876 --> 0:18:49.796 this plausibly not contraception? 0:18:52.116 --> 0:18:54.396 Yeah? I'm Catholic, and I struggle with us all the time. 0:18:55.196 --> 0:18:59.036 Like I said, everyone in this story is Catholic. On 0:18:59.076 --> 0:19:02.756 the one hand, Barnhardt says, m tour is obviously something 0:19:02.796 --> 0:19:05.956 that allows a woman to have sex without the possibility 0:19:05.996 --> 0:19:08.916 of getting pregnant. You take a pill and you know, 0:19:09.116 --> 0:19:12.836 longer ovulate. As the Pope wrote in nineteen thirty, those 0:19:12.916 --> 0:19:16.356 who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of 0:19:16.396 --> 0:19:19.396 a grave sin. How is the Pope going to agree 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:19.876 with mTOR? 0:19:20.716 --> 0:19:23.756 But on the other hand, well, you could say that 0:19:23.836 --> 0:19:27.596 this is a way of controlling your aging or postponing 0:19:27.636 --> 0:19:30.556 or prophylaxing or being sure. But I'm open to having 0:19:30.556 --> 0:19:32.876 a family, and I'm open to life, and I'm open later, 0:19:33.516 --> 0:19:36.796 just not right now. So that may be a plausible. 0:19:36.436 --> 0:19:39.436 Argument if you look at it that way. M tour 0:19:39.556 --> 0:19:42.716 is actually not a means to suppress your fertility, but 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:46.036 a means to extend your fertility. How is the pope 0:19:46.076 --> 0:19:48.076 going to have a problem with a mechanism that allows 0:19:48.076 --> 0:19:53.196 women to have more children later in life. If this 0:19:53.236 --> 0:19:57.076 way of thinking sounds familiar, it should. Barnhard is doing 0:19:57.116 --> 0:19:59.836 a nice little bit of casuistry here, the kind of 0:19:59.876 --> 0:20:04.836 thinking we described in the previous episode. Casuistry, remember, begins 0:20:04.956 --> 0:20:08.596 with the descent into the particular. What exactly am I 0:20:08.636 --> 0:20:12.556 dealing with? Well, a drug that effectively freezes your eggs 0:20:12.596 --> 0:20:18.116 inside your own body. Then casuistry involves an exercise in taxonomy. 0:20:18.716 --> 0:20:22.396 Where does this new case fit in relation to existing cases? 0:20:23.276 --> 0:20:26.396 And Barnhart's point is that emptor is often the corner 0:20:26.436 --> 0:20:30.316 with fertility drugs, not over here with the traditional contraceptives. 0:20:31.436 --> 0:20:33.436 Barnhart said that the first thing his group is going 0:20:33.476 --> 0:20:35.636 to try and do is a study with women who 0:20:35.676 --> 0:20:40.476 are undergoing chemotherapy, because chemotherapy in many cases destroys a 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:42.996 woman's eggs, not all of them. 0:20:43.036 --> 0:20:43.636 In some cases. 0:20:43.716 --> 0:20:44.596 Yeah, are you serious? 0:20:44.796 --> 0:20:49.276 Chemotherapy is designed to kill dividing cells, and by definition, right, 0:20:49.436 --> 0:20:52.476 that's what it's killing. And it also kills many other 0:20:53.396 --> 0:20:55.436 slowly dividing cells. That's why you get gie upset and 0:20:55.476 --> 0:20:58.596 you lose your hair. But it also kills women's eggs. 0:20:58.316 --> 0:21:03.476 So one of the consequences cur could stop, could stop 0:21:03.516 --> 0:21:06.436 the development of the eggs such that they're no longer 0:21:06.476 --> 0:21:08.476 receptive to the chemotherapy. 0:21:08.516 --> 0:21:11.756 By hitting pause on the whole thing. Right, Oh see, 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:14.516 that's what a clever Oh, so pitch that way. You're 0:21:14.556 --> 0:21:16.956 not even talking. You're talking about this is an agent 0:21:17.036 --> 0:21:24.836 of the preservation of fertility right now. Notice what Barnard 0:21:24.956 --> 0:21:28.316 is doing here. He's not saying the church's position on 0:21:28.436 --> 0:21:31.996 contraception is crazy and needs to be changed. He's saying, 0:21:32.396 --> 0:21:35.156 this new thing that we've come up with may actually 0:21:35.156 --> 0:21:39.276 be consistent with the church's teaching. Isn't the church interested 0:21:39.276 --> 0:21:43.036 in creating life? Well, mTOR is very much in that spirit. 0:21:43.356 --> 0:21:47.796 Look at its potential for creating life. Is this hair splitting. 0:21:48.596 --> 0:21:52.276 Casuistry is sometimes criticized on just those grounds that it's 0:21:52.316 --> 0:21:55.116 a way for smart people to rationalize doing whatever they want. 0:21:55.596 --> 0:21:59.916 That's why the term jesuitical has a slightly derogatory connotation. 0:22:00.756 --> 0:22:04.836 But that's not what's happening here. This isn't cynical rationalization. 0:22:05.516 --> 0:22:09.116 Right now, the Catholic teaching on contraception makes it harder 0:22:09.196 --> 0:22:12.396 from millions of women in developing countries to get access 0:22:12.436 --> 0:22:16.436 to birth control, despite the fact that controlling fertility is 0:22:16.516 --> 0:22:19.356 one of the easiest ways to lift families out of poverty. 0:22:20.316 --> 0:22:23.156 We can wait for the pope one day to change 0:22:23.156 --> 0:22:25.956 his mind, or we can come up with a contraceptive 0:22:26.196 --> 0:22:29.756 that is different enough from traditional contraceptives that it no 0:22:29.836 --> 0:22:34.076 longer has to be called a contraceptive. The rules of 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:37.236 how to behave ethically in the modern world do not 0:22:37.396 --> 0:22:41.036 come down from the heavens on stone tablets. They are 0:22:41.116 --> 0:22:45.836 things that have to be negotiated. Casuistry is a method 0:22:45.836 --> 0:22:48.916 of doing that negotiation. You see, you're a Catholic. 0:22:49.076 --> 0:22:55.396 Yeah, yeah, And I struggle with that. Do I know 0:22:55.556 --> 0:22:59.476 more scientifically in the popes too? Sure? Does that allow 0:22:59.556 --> 0:23:02.956 me to allow get different interpretations? I don't know. 0:23:04.036 --> 0:23:07.756 You are in a line of research that if the 0:23:07.756 --> 0:23:10.676 Pope were here, sitting in his chair, he would disagree 0:23:10.716 --> 0:23:11.676 with what you do for a living. 0:23:13.916 --> 0:23:15.956 I would hope not, but he probably would. 0:23:15.996 --> 0:23:20.636 I guess just that idea that the Pope would disapprove 0:23:21.556 --> 0:23:24.956 seemed to pain him. And that's exactly how John Rock 0:23:25.076 --> 0:23:28.036 must have felt half a century ago. He helped to 0:23:28.076 --> 0:23:31.156 invent a method of birth control, and he worried that 0:23:31.196 --> 0:23:33.356