1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's nineteen sixty four. NBC News Inchorman David Brinkley 2 00:00:23,396 --> 00:00:25,956 Speaker 1: has come to Boston to meet John Rock. 3 00:00:26,436 --> 00:00:29,636 Speaker 2: Doctor Rock, who is seventy three years old, lives and 4 00:00:29,716 --> 00:00:33,796 Speaker 2: works in Brookline, Massachusetts. Mainly he works at his clinic 5 00:00:33,996 --> 00:00:37,596 Speaker 2: or center, devoted to the study of human reproduction and 6 00:00:37,676 --> 00:00:40,476 Speaker 2: the treatment of problems in an area where, when you 7 00:00:40,556 --> 00:00:43,076 Speaker 2: get down to it, remarkably little is known. 8 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:47,596 Speaker 1: John Rock the most famous physician in the United States, 9 00:00:47,996 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: co inventor of one of the most important drugs in 10 00:00:50,316 --> 00:00:52,516 Speaker 1: human history, the birth control pill. 11 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:55,676 Speaker 2: He went to the High School of Commerce in Boston, 12 00:00:55,956 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 2: to Harvard, to Harvard Medical School, interned at Massachusetts General Hospital, 13 00:01:02,036 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 2: directed for thirty years of fertility clinic at the Free 14 00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:08,676 Speaker 2: Hospital for Women, and now goes to Mass every day 15 00:01:08,756 --> 00:01:10,956 Speaker 2: at brook Plans Saint Mary's Church. 16 00:01:16,396 --> 00:01:19,836 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 17 00:01:20,156 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked or Misunderstood. This is the 18 00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:34,156 Speaker 1: second of three episodes on how to Think Like a Jesuit. 19 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:39,476 Speaker 1: This one is about John Rock's Great Dilemma, a man 20 00:01:39,516 --> 00:01:42,156 Speaker 1: who went to Mass every day at Saint Mary's Catholic 21 00:01:42,276 --> 00:01:46,516 Speaker 1: Church and then helped create the pill, something his church 22 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 1: could not accept. 23 00:01:54,996 --> 00:01:57,476 Speaker 3: One of the events that would shape my later life 24 00:01:57,516 --> 00:02:00,476 Speaker 3: to a great degree was an experience I had with 25 00:02:00,756 --> 00:02:03,196 Speaker 3: the cynic who was a cured in Marlborough. 26 00:02:03,796 --> 00:02:08,116 Speaker 1: Rock is tall, distinguished, looks like Carry Grant. His interview 27 00:02:08,116 --> 00:02:11,036 Speaker 1: with Brinkley was over how a century ago, so forgive 28 00:02:11,076 --> 00:02:12,836 Speaker 1: the quality of the tape. 29 00:02:13,076 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 3: I was just about fourteen and then walking out of 30 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:20,356 Speaker 3: Mass one Sunday when Father Finnick beckoned me and asked 31 00:02:20,396 --> 00:02:22,396 Speaker 3: me if I would like to drive down with him 32 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:26,596 Speaker 3: to visit old Folks home old children called the Profile. 33 00:02:27,436 --> 00:02:31,556 Speaker 3: Father Finnick was a quiet and unobtrusive man. When he 34 00:02:31,636 --> 00:02:35,476 Speaker 3: was holding forth at first Communion class or Confirmation class, 35 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 3: he put across what he intended us to learn with 36 00:02:38,796 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 3: clarity and vigor, so that much of it has remained 37 00:02:41,996 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 3: with me all my life. 38 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:46,036 Speaker 1: At this point, NBC shows b roll of a horse 39 00:02:46,076 --> 00:02:48,676 Speaker 1: and carriage, something Rock would have ridden in his youth, 40 00:02:49,236 --> 00:02:51,916 Speaker 1: and if added sound effects, God bless them. 41 00:02:52,516 --> 00:02:56,316 Speaker 3: We had never been more than just friendly, but somehow 42 00:02:56,716 --> 00:03:01,836 Speaker 3: I remember quite distinctly that ride. He was sounding off saying, John, 43 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 3: always stick to your own conscience. Let no one ever 44 00:03:06,676 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 3: keep it for you. 45 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:12,356 Speaker 1: It's clear as Rock tells that story that it has 46 00:03:12,396 --> 00:03:13,716 Speaker 1: stayed with him his whole life. 47 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:17,756 Speaker 3: And just as I was beginning to get that, and 48 00:03:17,836 --> 00:03:20,796 Speaker 3: then there was a moment's pause, and then he said, 49 00:03:21,396 --> 00:03:25,636 Speaker 3: and when I say no one, I mean no one. 50 00:03:26,796 --> 00:03:29,516 Speaker 3: I've never forgotten those words. 51 00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 1: So I just want to talk about him because I 52 00:03:33,156 --> 00:03:36,636 Speaker 1: find him, as I'm sure you do, to be such 53 00:03:36,636 --> 00:03:39,476 Speaker 1: a fascinating figure, extraordinary. 54 00:03:38,956 --> 00:03:43,436 Speaker 4: Figure, really complicated. Really, I don't feel like I ever 55 00:03:43,556 --> 00:03:48,516 Speaker 4: really understood him all those years in those papers. I 56 00:03:48,556 --> 00:03:51,116 Speaker 4: feel like I understood him partly, but I don't feel 57 00:03:51,156 --> 00:03:53,236 Speaker 4: like I ever completely understood him. 58 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:57,876 Speaker 1: I went to Pennsylvania Hospital in Philadelphia to talk to 59 00:03:57,876 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 1: the two people who probably know more about John Rock 60 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:04,996 Speaker 1: than anyone else, Margaret Marsh and Wanda Ronner, who wrote 61 00:04:04,996 --> 00:04:08,676 Speaker 1: a book called The Fertility Doctor. It's the definitive account 62 00:04:08,756 --> 00:04:10,836 Speaker 1: of Rock. You go first. 63 00:04:10,876 --> 00:04:14,996 Speaker 4: I'm Margaret Marsh and I'm a university professor. That's a title, 64 00:04:15,356 --> 00:04:17,716 Speaker 4: university professor at Records University. 65 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:18,836 Speaker 2: Yeah. 66 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 5: I'm Wanda Runner and I'm a gynecologist. I work for 67 00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 5: penn Medicine. I'm a professor of Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology, 68 00:04:29,036 --> 00:04:33,436 Speaker 5: and I work at Pennsylvania Hospital and your sisters. 69 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:36,236 Speaker 1: Where did you guys grow up around here? Is that 70 00:04:36,276 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 1: why you're in this We grew up. 71 00:04:37,796 --> 00:04:43,036 Speaker 4: In Vineland, New Jersey. We grew up with our father's family, 72 00:04:43,156 --> 00:04:48,116 Speaker 4: Italian Americans. We're the granddaughters of immigrants, and a lot 73 00:04:48,156 --> 00:04:49,876 Speaker 4: of our family is still there in Vineland. 74 00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: Oh so, so, I'm assuming your Catholic or were many 75 00:04:55,236 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 1: years ago, many years ago, I see, But this is 76 00:04:57,676 --> 00:04:59,876 Speaker 1: not foreign territory for you, not at all to be 77 00:04:59,916 --> 00:05:04,476 Speaker 1: talking about Catholics. Everyone in this episode is Catholic except 78 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 1: for me. I'm a wannabe. 79 00:05:06,836 --> 00:05:09,436 Speaker 6: Well. We always have this joke when people ask guess 80 00:05:09,436 --> 00:05:12,116 Speaker 6: how we work so well together, and we always say 81 00:05:12,916 --> 00:05:15,436 Speaker 6: I always say I'm the oldest sister, so I get 82 00:05:15,436 --> 00:05:18,156 Speaker 6: to be the boss, and she says, I'm the younger sister, 83 00:05:18,436 --> 00:05:21,996 Speaker 6: so I always get my way, Which it's true. 84 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 5: It's true. 85 00:05:23,076 --> 00:05:26,516 Speaker 1: The two of them spent years on John Rock, tracking 86 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:30,956 Speaker 1: down relatives and colleagues, slowly working their way through his papers. 87 00:05:31,596 --> 00:05:34,516 Speaker 1: Rock's daughter told them that he had been undecided about 88 00:05:34,516 --> 00:05:37,636 Speaker 1: what kind of medicine to practice, but then in the 89 00:05:37,676 --> 00:05:40,636 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds he had a rotation as a medical 90 00:05:40,636 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 1: student delivering babies in the Irish tenements of Boston. He 91 00:05:44,836 --> 00:05:48,596 Speaker 1: saw a wretched poverty, young women overwhelmed with five or 92 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:52,196 Speaker 1: six or seven children families. They could barely feed her clothes. 93 00:05:53,116 --> 00:05:59,716 Speaker 4: The overwhelming sorrow he felt for the women and their 94 00:06:00,636 --> 00:06:04,396 Speaker 4: difficult situations was what decided him to go into obstetrics 95 00:06:04,396 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 4: and gynecology. 96 00:06:06,116 --> 00:06:09,036 Speaker 1: Rock founded the Fertility and Endocrine Clinic at the Free 97 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 1: Hospital for Women in Brookline, where he served the Irish 98 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 1: poor of Boston through the difficult years of the Depression 99 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:19,076 Speaker 1: and the Second World War. He was never terribly interested 100 00:06:19,116 --> 00:06:20,836 Speaker 1: in charging for his services. 101 00:06:21,276 --> 00:06:25,876 Speaker 5: I think, and you know, okay, I love the man. Now, 102 00:06:25,956 --> 00:06:26,716 Speaker 5: what can I say? 103 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:31,436 Speaker 7: I think of him as an unusual figure in medicine, 104 00:06:31,676 --> 00:06:35,716 Speaker 7: But you know, he had that gift of being able to. 105 00:06:35,676 --> 00:06:38,116 Speaker 5: Communicate with women from all different classes. 106 00:06:39,156 --> 00:06:42,596 Speaker 1: One of Rock's friends was a researcher pen named Luigi Mastroianni, 107 00:06:42,956 --> 00:06:45,276 Speaker 1: who was still alive when the sisters were doing their work. 108 00:06:45,876 --> 00:06:49,756 Speaker 4: It was Luigi who said he would come out. This 109 00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:52,196 Speaker 4: was whether it was a clinic patient or a private patient. 110 00:06:52,236 --> 00:06:55,116 Speaker 4: He'd come out. He'd greet the patient, he'd walk her 111 00:06:55,156 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 4: back in, sit her down, talk to her. 112 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:03,236 Speaker 5: And always direct, you know, not he would always have 113 00:07:03,276 --> 00:07:06,476 Speaker 5: a direct conversation with the patient, you know, like directly 114 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 5: look at them. 115 00:07:09,756 --> 00:07:12,316 Speaker 1: Not to push the Catholic thing too far, but it's 116 00:07:12,436 --> 00:07:15,676 Speaker 1: very He has a touch of the parish priest in him, a. 117 00:07:15,676 --> 00:07:19,836 Speaker 5: Touch, a touch that's really good. That did you grow 118 00:07:19,876 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 5: up Catholic too? 119 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:23,476 Speaker 1: Like I said, I want to be Catholic, not the 120 00:07:23,516 --> 00:07:23,996 Speaker 1: real thing. 121 00:07:24,316 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 5: I think that's very I think that is. 122 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:29,556 Speaker 1: Good. 123 00:07:29,596 --> 00:07:32,716 Speaker 5: Doctors always have a touch of the parish priest, or 124 00:07:32,756 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 5: the minister, or the rabbi or because if you don't, 125 00:07:37,116 --> 00:07:38,116 Speaker 5: you're less effective. 126 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:41,156 Speaker 4: And not to brag about my sister, but she does 127 00:07:41,276 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 4: have the second highest patient satisfactory. 128 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 5: That's all I all have. It's mandatory. 129 00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 8: She's very she's very good. 130 00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:55,116 Speaker 9: Love. 131 00:07:55,236 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 4: She's one of the most beloved parish. 132 00:07:59,036 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 3: She's one of the most love. 133 00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: Your sister is allowed to boast about you. I don't 134 00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:04,156 Speaker 1: know why you're why you're trying to stop her? 135 00:08:04,916 --> 00:08:05,196 Speaker 3: Wait? 136 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 1: Where were we got involved with birth control? Almost by accident. 137 00:08:12,356 --> 00:08:15,556 Speaker 1: He was more interested in treating infertility, and in the 138 00:08:15,676 --> 00:08:19,036 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties he started working with two hormones that had 139 00:08:19,116 --> 00:08:25,036 Speaker 1: only just been isolated, estrogen and progesterone. What's his theory 140 00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:30,916 Speaker 1: that progesterone and estrin might be useful in combating infertility? 141 00:08:31,716 --> 00:08:33,156 Speaker 5: Okay, okay, I'll tell you. 142 00:08:33,196 --> 00:08:35,836 Speaker 7: My conjecture was that, I think it came out of 143 00:08:35,876 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 7: looking at the endometrium, you know, to seeing that some 144 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:43,596 Speaker 7: women did not have the secretory changes that would have 145 00:08:43,596 --> 00:08:45,836 Speaker 7: been anticipated after ovulation. 146 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:49,276 Speaker 10: I think that makes sense because the way he would 147 00:08:49,316 --> 00:08:55,156 Speaker 10: explain it, yes, was he said some women seemed to 148 00:08:55,196 --> 00:08:57,996 Speaker 10: have underdeveloped. 149 00:08:58,556 --> 00:08:59,236 Speaker 4: Systems. 150 00:08:59,996 --> 00:09:01,396 Speaker 5: He said systems he used. 151 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 10: Underdeveloped oh yes, reproductive systems. And he thought that this 152 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:14,596 Speaker 10: underdevelopment was due to a problem with the hormones. And 153 00:09:14,756 --> 00:09:18,716 Speaker 10: this was all observation. Remember, they didn't know anything. I mean, 154 00:09:18,756 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 10: they didn't you know, they didn't know the kinds of 155 00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:22,916 Speaker 10: things we know now, So it's all observationalized. And he 156 00:09:22,956 --> 00:09:26,276 Speaker 10: would say, some of them get pregnant on their own, 157 00:09:26,916 --> 00:09:29,276 Speaker 10: and then after they get pregnant, once on their own, 158 00:09:29,556 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 10: their systems quote seemed to be developed. 159 00:09:31,956 --> 00:09:35,156 Speaker 1: In the analogy of a car with a dead battery, Yeah, 160 00:09:35,236 --> 00:09:37,436 Speaker 1: jumpstart the battery, and then after that the battery works. 161 00:09:37,516 --> 00:09:39,836 Speaker 4: Yes, sort of what he's thinking, sort of, yes, yes. 162 00:09:41,316 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 1: So that's how Rock got interested in the role of 163 00:09:43,596 --> 00:09:47,756 Speaker 1: hormones in reproduction. Meanwhile, fifty miles away in Worcester, a 164 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:50,996 Speaker 1: scientist named Gregory Pinkus was working on the same idea, 165 00:09:51,196 --> 00:09:54,556 Speaker 1: only he thought that estrogen and progesterone might actually work 166 00:09:54,596 --> 00:09:59,316 Speaker 1: to prevent pregnancy. Pincus and Rock started doing research together, 167 00:09:59,716 --> 00:10:04,436 Speaker 1: which is how the birth control pill came about. Pincus 168 00:10:04,636 --> 00:10:08,276 Speaker 1: was the hard scientist. Rock ran the clinical trials. They 169 00:10:08,276 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: took their data to the Food and Drug Administration in 170 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, asking it to approve the pill as 171 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 1: a prescription drug. The FDA dragged its feet, so Rock 172 00:10:17,316 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 1: paid a personal visit. As he told David Brinkley in 173 00:10:20,356 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 1: the NBC profile. 174 00:10:22,076 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 11: When we went down, we hadn't a point where with 175 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:29,116 Speaker 11: the director of FDA or something like that, because all 176 00:10:29,196 --> 00:10:33,476 Speaker 11: the material had been sent to Washington and no response. 177 00:10:34,236 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 1: Tall distinguished John Rock, the Catholic Kerry Grant, the most 178 00:10:37,796 --> 00:10:40,636 Speaker 1: famous doctor in America, knocked on the man's door. 179 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:44,756 Speaker 11: Yeah, all material, the right stack of stuff was just 180 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 11: and he hadn't even looked at it. So we talked 181 00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:51,116 Speaker 11: about it, and he said, well he would go sow 182 00:10:51,196 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 11: it as soon as he could. And I went over 183 00:10:53,676 --> 00:10:56,556 Speaker 11: and then you have no time. 184 00:10:56,596 --> 00:11:01,156 Speaker 3: You'll do it now, and they said all right, and 185 00:11:01,196 --> 00:11:03,116 Speaker 3: so he signed to watch the call it. 186 00:11:03,276 --> 00:11:03,876 Speaker 4: That was it. 187 00:11:04,716 --> 00:11:07,196 Speaker 1: One of the two or three most important drugs of 188 00:11:07,236 --> 00:11:09,516 Speaker 1: the twentieth century was approved because as one of the 189 00:11:09,596 --> 00:11:13,076 Speaker 1: drugs inventors took the train to Washington, marched into the 190 00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:15,676 Speaker 1: FDA and said, you'll do it now. 191 00:11:16,596 --> 00:11:23,676 Speaker 11: That I probably the government in taking the final step, 192 00:11:24,516 --> 00:11:26,996 Speaker 11: but we knew it was all right. I mean, I 193 00:11:27,196 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 11: was convinced, but my conscience was clear about that. 194 00:11:31,036 --> 00:11:34,996 Speaker 1: How much do you love John Rock? But now John 195 00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:41,196 Speaker 1: Rock has a problem. He's helped create the world's greatest contraceptive, 196 00:11:41,596 --> 00:11:44,356 Speaker 1: and yet he's a devout Roman Catholic and his church 197 00:11:44,396 --> 00:11:50,196 Speaker 1: doesn't believe in contraception. Consider The Costy canoeby People Encyclical 198 00:11:50,236 --> 00:11:54,236 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirty. In it, Pope Pious the eleventh declared 199 00:11:54,276 --> 00:11:58,676 Speaker 1: that and a quote, any use whatsoever of matrimony exercise 200 00:11:58,836 --> 00:12:02,876 Speaker 1: in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated 201 00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 1: in its natural power to generate life is an offense 202 00:12:06,716 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 1: against the law of God and of nature, and those 203 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 1: who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of 204 00:12:12,476 --> 00:12:17,836 Speaker 1: a grave sin. The act is deliberately frustrated in its 205 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:21,836 Speaker 1: natural power to generate life. That's what a contraceptive does. 206 00:12:22,276 --> 00:12:25,276 Speaker 1: And what is John Rock's birth control pill. It is 207 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:33,276 Speaker 1: a pill that deliberately frustrates the natural power to generate life. 208 00:12:39,396 --> 00:12:43,156 Speaker 1: Let's run through John Rock's options. He could renounce his 209 00:12:43,236 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 1: work on the pill and accept the teaching of the church. 210 00:12:46,476 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 1: Only he's not going to do that, is he He 211 00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:51,356 Speaker 1: remembers what his priest told him when he was a boy, 212 00:12:51,916 --> 00:12:55,636 Speaker 1: John always stick to your own conscience. Let no one 213 00:12:55,716 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 1: ever keep it for you. Margaret Marsha and Wander ron 214 00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:00,916 Speaker 1: Or tell the story in their book of when Rock 215 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: was nineteen and he got a job with the United 216 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 1: Fruit Company in Guatemala. He was responsible for a group 217 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:10,556 Speaker 1: of Jamaican migrant workers and United Fruit decided to cut 218 00:13:10,596 --> 00:13:14,836 Speaker 1: everyone's wages. And who did Rock support his workers? 219 00:13:15,836 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 4: He just defied all the bosses that United Fruit and 220 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 4: he said, they don't need a wage cut. There's no 221 00:13:22,116 --> 00:13:24,196 Speaker 4: reason for a wagecot. I'm not cutting the wages on 222 00:13:24,236 --> 00:13:28,316 Speaker 4: my farm. Kind of thinny. Of course, they cut the 223 00:13:28,356 --> 00:13:31,076 Speaker 4: wages on his farm. Then there's this huge strike and 224 00:13:31,156 --> 00:13:35,236 Speaker 4: he says, well, he rights to the president of the company, 225 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 4: say this is ridiculous. If you were here, you would 226 00:13:38,756 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 4: know that this is wrong. They don't need a wage cut. 227 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:45,476 Speaker 4: And then there's the strike and one of the Jamaican 228 00:13:45,516 --> 00:13:49,236 Speaker 4: workers is very gravely injured and two of the others aren't. 229 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:54,356 Speaker 4: He's like nineteen years old. He wades into this wildcat strike, 230 00:13:55,916 --> 00:14:01,116 Speaker 4: gets the injured men, brings them to the hospital. And 231 00:14:01,716 --> 00:14:06,236 Speaker 4: you wonder, where does a nineteen year old who's probably 232 00:14:06,276 --> 00:14:11,076 Speaker 4: never had a deep thought about racial injustice in his life, 233 00:14:11,596 --> 00:14:13,516 Speaker 4: where does he get that reservoir? 234 00:14:15,076 --> 00:14:19,556 Speaker 1: John Rock always kept his own conscience. Many years later, 235 00:14:19,716 --> 00:14:22,276 Speaker 1: in his dilemma over the church and the birth control pill, 236 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:25,636 Speaker 1: he had another option. Of course, he could leave the church. 237 00:14:26,276 --> 00:14:28,956 Speaker 1: Lots of people have left the Catholic Church over disagreements 238 00:14:29,036 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 1: with its teachings. But Rock can't leave the Catholic Church. 239 00:14:32,876 --> 00:14:33,596 Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? 240 00:14:34,636 --> 00:14:38,556 Speaker 4: Leaving Catholicism would have I don't think he would have 241 00:14:38,556 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 4: ever thought of it. 242 00:14:39,996 --> 00:14:42,436 Speaker 1: Well, I noticed there was a little line that you 243 00:14:42,516 --> 00:14:45,196 Speaker 1: quoted from my I think one of his diaries about 244 00:14:45,196 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 1: a day where he said he attended Mass in three 245 00:14:47,396 --> 00:14:51,916 Speaker 1: different churches in one day. Yeah, yeah, so that gives 246 00:14:51,916 --> 00:14:53,796 Speaker 1: you a flavor of I suppose. 247 00:14:53,396 --> 00:14:56,796 Speaker 4: The culture his mother was to vow. His mother was 248 00:14:56,876 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 4: very different about Yeah. One of my colleagues, who's a 249 00:15:00,276 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 4: James Joyce scholar, told me about a line in one 250 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:08,076 Speaker 4: of James Joyce's book where the hero and his friend 251 00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:11,436 Speaker 4: are walking around. Then one of them is saying to 252 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 4: the other one, I've lost my faith. Man, I've lost 253 00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:17,916 Speaker 4: my faith. And so the other one says, are you 254 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:21,836 Speaker 4: going to become a Protestant? And he says, I lost 255 00:15:21,876 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 4: my faith? Man, I didn't tell you I lost my mind. 256 00:15:26,236 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: And that's very John Rock. So he's not going to 257 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 1: put his head down and go along. And he's not 258 00:15:31,356 --> 00:15:34,436 Speaker 1: going to abandon the church. That leaves only one option. 259 00:15:35,196 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 1: He's going to stay and try to convince the church 260 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:40,676 Speaker 1: to change its mind. Now, how do you do that 261 00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 1: if you're a devout Catholic in the nineteen sixties. The 262 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:49,596 Speaker 1: answer is you think like a Jesuit. Let's leave John 263 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:51,636 Speaker 1: Rock for a moment and let me run a thought 264 00:15:51,636 --> 00:15:55,876 Speaker 1: experiment by you. It comes out of a conversation I 265 00:15:55,916 --> 00:15:59,396 Speaker 1: had with a scientist named Kurt Barnhardt. He's a professor 266 00:15:59,476 --> 00:16:02,996 Speaker 1: at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center in Philadelphia, an 267 00:16:03,036 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: obgyn who does research in reproductive biology. Barnhardt's kind of 268 00:16:08,196 --> 00:16:11,276 Speaker 1: a modern day version of John Rock, only now we 269 00:16:11,396 --> 00:16:13,636 Speaker 1: know a lot more about female reproduction than we did 270 00:16:13,636 --> 00:16:14,756 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties. 271 00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:17,636 Speaker 12: I mean to insult you with a student level lecture, 272 00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:20,156 Speaker 12: but you know progesterone is pulling the plug out from 273 00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:22,036 Speaker 12: the street to turn the lights off in your house. 274 00:16:22,836 --> 00:16:25,836 Speaker 12: It's not turning the lamp off on your bedstands. 275 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:28,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're still dropped, in other words, in a relatively 276 00:16:28,716 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 1: crude conceptual model about how to prevent. 277 00:16:31,716 --> 00:16:34,076 Speaker 12: Yeah, right, right, And it would be better if you 278 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:37,236 Speaker 12: could prevent ovulation. I mean the home run I'll share 279 00:16:37,236 --> 00:16:40,436 Speaker 12: the Nobel Prize with you would be there's an attrisia 280 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:44,076 Speaker 12: of eggs with women's aging. If I could stop women's 281 00:16:44,116 --> 00:16:46,996 Speaker 12: eggs from growing and not losing them, not only would 282 00:16:46,996 --> 00:16:48,756 Speaker 12: I prevent I would allow you to get pregnant when 283 00:16:48,756 --> 00:16:51,236 Speaker 12: you want. I would remove the biological clock and you 284 00:16:51,236 --> 00:16:53,836 Speaker 12: could get pregnant at sixty right. 285 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:57,556 Speaker 1: So you mean you could decouple the aging of a 286 00:16:57,596 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 1: woman's eggs from the regular aging process. 287 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:00,196 Speaker 9: Is that? 288 00:17:00,196 --> 00:17:00,676 Speaker 11: What is that? 289 00:17:00,836 --> 00:17:03,316 Speaker 12: Theoretically? I mean, lucularly, if woman is born with all 290 00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 12: the eggs that she ever makes and they're all sitting 291 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 12: in the ovary, and what's really neat is and we 292 00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 12: don't understand this. But in one month, a group of 293 00:17:10,076 --> 00:17:13,236 Speaker 12: eggs starts growing and competing. That's the one that ovulates, 294 00:17:13,276 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 12: and all the other ones die off. When you run 295 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:18,156 Speaker 12: out of groups, you run out of menopause. But we 296 00:17:18,196 --> 00:17:23,436 Speaker 12: don't understand what tells the group to grow. So if 297 00:17:23,436 --> 00:17:26,556 Speaker 12: we could say, don't grow your follicle this month, throw 298 00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:27,476 Speaker 12: it next. 299 00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:31,916 Speaker 1: Month, putting it on pause. Right, a woman is born 300 00:17:31,956 --> 00:17:34,396 Speaker 1: with a fixed number of eggs, you don't make any 301 00:17:34,436 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 1: new ones. By puberty, you might have three hundred to 302 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:40,356 Speaker 1: four hundred thousand eggs, and every month, like clockwork, you 303 00:17:40,436 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: lose about a thousand of them. That's the iron logic 304 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:47,316 Speaker 1: of female fertility. But Barnhardt says, we might have found 305 00:17:47,356 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 1: a drug that would allow a woman to stop the clock, 306 00:17:50,116 --> 00:17:53,836 Speaker 1: to hit pause. It's being developed by several of his colleagues, 307 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:57,876 Speaker 1: Kara Goldman at Northwestern among them. It's called m tour. 308 00:17:58,796 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 1: Now understand that this approach, under the best of circumstances, 309 00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:06,276 Speaker 1: is years and years away from ever becoming available. That's 310 00:18:06,316 --> 00:18:09,876 Speaker 1: why this is a thought experiment. So here's the question. 311 00:18:10,476 --> 00:18:12,236 Speaker 1: Is mTOR a contraceptive. 312 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 12: I wouldn't pitch it as contraception. I wouldn't I would. 313 00:18:17,596 --> 00:18:21,916 Speaker 12: I would pitch it as delay, you know words. It's 314 00:18:21,956 --> 00:18:25,236 Speaker 12: not like I'm trying to not get pregnant today by 315 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:29,996 Speaker 12: need a contraceptive, right, I mean no, let's gout. Wow, 316 00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 12: this is interesting, right. 317 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:35,076 Speaker 1: Because I'm thinking you're, you know, up against the exact 318 00:18:35,116 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 1: same dilemma John Rock was up against, which is you know, 319 00:18:39,196 --> 00:18:42,396 Speaker 1: could you, for example, could you with the How would 320 00:18:42,396 --> 00:18:45,556 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church view such a measure? They're they're opposed 321 00:18:45,556 --> 00:18:47,876 Speaker 1: to artificial contraception, but what if this is not? Is 322 00:18:47,876 --> 00:18:49,796 Speaker 1: this plausibly not contraception? 323 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:54,396 Speaker 12: Yeah? I'm Catholic, and I struggle with us all the time. 324 00:18:55,196 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 1: Like I said, everyone in this story is Catholic. On 325 00:18:59,076 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 1: the one hand, Barnhardt says, m tour is obviously something 326 00:19:02,796 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 1: that allows a woman to have sex without the possibility 327 00:19:05,996 --> 00:19:08,916 Speaker 1: of getting pregnant. You take a pill and you know, 328 00:19:09,116 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 1: longer ovulate. As the Pope wrote in nineteen thirty, those 329 00:19:12,916 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 1: who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of 330 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:19,396 Speaker 1: a grave sin. How is the Pope going to agree 331 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:19,876 Speaker 1: with mTOR? 332 00:19:20,716 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 12: But on the other hand, well, you could say that 333 00:19:23,836 --> 00:19:27,596 Speaker 12: this is a way of controlling your aging or postponing 334 00:19:27,636 --> 00:19:30,556 Speaker 12: or prophylaxing or being sure. But I'm open to having 335 00:19:30,556 --> 00:19:32,876 Speaker 12: a family, and I'm open to life, and I'm open later, 336 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 12: just not right now. So that may be a plausible. 337 00:19:36,436 --> 00:19:39,436 Speaker 1: Argument if you look at it that way. M tour 338 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:42,716 Speaker 1: is actually not a means to suppress your fertility, but 339 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:46,036 Speaker 1: a means to extend your fertility. How is the pope 340 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:48,076 Speaker 1: going to have a problem with a mechanism that allows 341 00:19:48,076 --> 00:19:53,196 Speaker 1: women to have more children later in life. If this 342 00:19:53,236 --> 00:19:57,076 Speaker 1: way of thinking sounds familiar, it should. Barnhard is doing 343 00:19:57,116 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: a nice little bit of casuistry here, the kind of 344 00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:04,836 Speaker 1: thinking we described in the previous episode. Casuistry, remember, begins 345 00:20:04,956 --> 00:20:08,596 Speaker 1: with the descent into the particular. What exactly am I 346 00:20:08,636 --> 00:20:12,556 Speaker 1: dealing with? Well, a drug that effectively freezes your eggs 347 00:20:12,596 --> 00:20:18,116 Speaker 1: inside your own body. Then casuistry involves an exercise in taxonomy. 348 00:20:18,716 --> 00:20:22,396 Speaker 1: Where does this new case fit in relation to existing cases? 349 00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:26,396 Speaker 1: And Barnhart's point is that emptor is often the corner 350 00:20:26,436 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 1: with fertility drugs, not over here with the traditional contraceptives. 351 00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:33,436 Speaker 1: Barnhart said that the first thing his group is going 352 00:20:33,476 --> 00:20:35,636 Speaker 1: to try and do is a study with women who 353 00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 1: are undergoing chemotherapy, because chemotherapy in many cases destroys a 354 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:42,996 Speaker 1: woman's eggs, not all of them. 355 00:20:43,036 --> 00:20:43,636 Speaker 12: In some cases. 356 00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:44,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, are you serious? 357 00:20:44,796 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 12: Chemotherapy is designed to kill dividing cells, and by definition, right, 358 00:20:49,436 --> 00:20:52,476 Speaker 12: that's what it's killing. And it also kills many other 359 00:20:53,396 --> 00:20:55,436 Speaker 12: slowly dividing cells. That's why you get gie upset and 360 00:20:55,476 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 12: you lose your hair. But it also kills women's eggs. 361 00:20:58,316 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 12: So one of the consequences cur could stop, could stop 362 00:21:03,516 --> 00:21:06,436 Speaker 12: the development of the eggs such that they're no longer 363 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:08,476 Speaker 12: receptive to the chemotherapy. 364 00:21:08,516 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 1: By hitting pause on the whole thing. Right, Oh see, 365 00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:14,516 Speaker 1: that's what a clever Oh, so pitch that way. You're 366 00:21:14,556 --> 00:21:16,956 Speaker 1: not even talking. You're talking about this is an agent 367 00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:24,836 Speaker 1: of the preservation of fertility right now. Notice what Barnard 368 00:21:24,956 --> 00:21:28,316 Speaker 1: is doing here. He's not saying the church's position on 369 00:21:28,436 --> 00:21:31,996 Speaker 1: contraception is crazy and needs to be changed. He's saying, 370 00:21:32,396 --> 00:21:35,156 Speaker 1: this new thing that we've come up with may actually 371 00:21:35,156 --> 00:21:39,276 Speaker 1: be consistent with the church's teaching. Isn't the church interested 372 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:43,036 Speaker 1: in creating life? Well, mTOR is very much in that spirit. 373 00:21:43,356 --> 00:21:47,796 Speaker 1: Look at its potential for creating life. Is this hair splitting. 374 00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:52,276 Speaker 1: Casuistry is sometimes criticized on just those grounds that it's 375 00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:55,116 Speaker 1: a way for smart people to rationalize doing whatever they want. 376 00:21:55,596 --> 00:21:59,916 Speaker 1: That's why the term jesuitical has a slightly derogatory connotation. 377 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:04,836 Speaker 1: But that's not what's happening here. This isn't cynical rationalization. 378 00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 1: Right now, the Catholic teaching on contraception makes it harder 379 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:12,396 Speaker 1: from millions of women in developing countries to get access 380 00:22:12,436 --> 00:22:16,436 Speaker 1: to birth control, despite the fact that controlling fertility is 381 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:19,356 Speaker 1: one of the easiest ways to lift families out of poverty. 382 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:23,156 Speaker 1: We can wait for the pope one day to change 383 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:25,956 Speaker 1: his mind, or we can come up with a contraceptive 384 00:22:26,196 --> 00:22:29,756 Speaker 1: that is different enough from traditional contraceptives that it no 385 00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:34,076 Speaker 1: longer has to be called a contraceptive. The rules of 386 00:22:34,116 --> 00:22:37,236 Speaker 1: how to behave ethically in the modern world do not 387 00:22:37,396 --> 00:22:41,036 Speaker 1: come down from the heavens on stone tablets. They are 388 00:22:41,116 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: things that have to be negotiated. Casuistry is a method 389 00:22:45,836 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 1: of doing that negotiation. You see, you're a Catholic. 390 00:22:49,076 --> 00:22:55,396 Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, And I struggle with that. Do I know 391 00:22:55,556 --> 00:22:59,476 Speaker 12: more scientifically in the popes too? Sure? Does that allow 392 00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 12: me to allow get different interpretations? I don't know. 393 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:07,756 Speaker 1: You are in a line of research that if the 394 00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:10,676 Speaker 1: Pope were here, sitting in his chair, he would disagree 395 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:11,676 Speaker 1: with what you do for a living. 396 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:15,956 Speaker 12: I would hope not, but he probably would. 397 00:23:15,996 --> 00:23:20,636 Speaker 1: I guess just that idea that the Pope would disapprove 398 00:23:21,556 --> 00:23:24,956 Speaker 1: seemed to pain him. And that's exactly how John Rock 399 00:23:25,076 --> 00:23:28,036 Speaker 1: must have felt half a century ago. He helped to 400 00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:31,156 Speaker 1: invent a method of birth control, and he worried that 401 00:23:31,196 --> 00:23:33,356 Speaker 1: the Pope might sit down next to him one day 402 00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:37,556 Speaker 1: and disapprove of his life's work. So he decided to 403 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 1: put on his casuists cloak and try to change the 404 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:53,716 Speaker 1: Pope's mind. John Rock's argument in favor of the pill 405 00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:58,116 Speaker 1: begins with a nice little bit of casuitical taxonomy. On 406 00:23:58,156 --> 00:24:01,156 Speaker 1: the one hand, he said, there are the barrier contraceptives 407 00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 1: that the Church has explicitly called sinful condoms, the diaphragm. 408 00:24:06,676 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 1: That is what the Pope was talking about in nineteen 409 00:24:09,876 --> 00:24:13,396 Speaker 1: when he referred to methods that frustrate the natural power 410 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 1: to generate life. On the other hand, though, there was 411 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:21,236 Speaker 1: the rhythm method. Rhythm is the idea that a couple 412 00:24:21,316 --> 00:24:25,076 Speaker 1: might prevent pregnancy by not having sex during a woman's 413 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:29,716 Speaker 1: fertile days when she's ovulating. In nineteen fifty one, Pope 414 00:24:29,716 --> 00:24:32,596 Speaker 1: Pius the twelfth addressed a group of midwives in Italy, 415 00:24:32,956 --> 00:24:36,236 Speaker 1: and in his speech he explicitly gave his blessing to 416 00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:38,916 Speaker 1: the rhythm method of birth control. In his statement on 417 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:41,956 Speaker 1: the rhythm method, how does he resolve the issue of 418 00:24:42,036 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: whether the whether the rhythm method is contraception or not? 419 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:49,876 Speaker 8: Oh, just by ignoring it. That's a time honored way 420 00:24:49,876 --> 00:24:50,876 Speaker 8: of solving problems. 421 00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:55,556 Speaker 1: That's the historian Leslie Woodcock Tentler, who wrote a brilliant 422 00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 1: book on the Church's history with contraception. 423 00:24:58,116 --> 00:25:01,316 Speaker 8: He's speaking to Italian midwives, the Congress of Italian Midwives, 424 00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 8: and I presume what it reflects is the reality of 425 00:25:05,316 --> 00:25:08,156 Speaker 8: war torn Italy. You know, of a country that's really 426 00:25:08,196 --> 00:25:12,796 Speaker 8: been decimated, where people aren't desperately poor. So in fact, 427 00:25:12,836 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 8: he's saying, I know you're facing problems out there. And 428 00:25:18,996 --> 00:25:21,596 Speaker 8: here is mother Church's pastoral response. 429 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:25,396 Speaker 1: So there are some kinds of birth control the Catholic churches, okay, 430 00:25:25,436 --> 00:25:29,116 Speaker 1: with natural kinds, and there are some kinds. It opposes 431 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:33,796 Speaker 1: artificial kinds. But let's descend into the particulars here for 432 00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:37,076 Speaker 1: a moment. It's not quite true that the rhythm method 433 00:25:37,276 --> 00:25:41,116 Speaker 1: is perfectly natural, at least not as it was being 434 00:25:41,156 --> 00:25:45,836 Speaker 1: practiced in the nineteen fifties. Walk the naive listener through 435 00:25:45,996 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 1: what practicing the rhythm method in the fifties met. 436 00:25:49,516 --> 00:25:52,276 Speaker 8: Right, Well, it was new and improved rhythm in the fifties, 437 00:25:52,436 --> 00:25:55,436 Speaker 8: and in the beginning, you just you sort of looked 438 00:25:55,436 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 8: at the calendar. You assume that your menstrual period would 439 00:25:58,676 --> 00:26:00,996 Speaker 8: occur at such and such a point in the cycle, 440 00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 8: and there'd be no variations, so you just count. 441 00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:04,076 Speaker 3: Right. 442 00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:06,716 Speaker 1: This doesn't work very well at preventing pregnancy. 443 00:26:07,276 --> 00:26:09,676 Speaker 8: The one that dominates in the f these is the 444 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:15,156 Speaker 8: so called basal temperature method, whereby apparently when a woman ovulates, 445 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:18,036 Speaker 8: they'll be a very slight increase in her body temperature. 446 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:21,836 Speaker 8: But that means that every morning you have to take 447 00:26:21,876 --> 00:26:26,316 Speaker 8: your temperature rectally because that's the most sensitive way, and 448 00:26:26,396 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 8: recorded before you get out of bed, before you do anything, 449 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:33,156 Speaker 8: which is not always easy if you already have a 450 00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 8: house full of young children. 451 00:26:34,676 --> 00:26:37,516 Speaker 1: Yes, you got seven kids screaming, that's right, and you're 452 00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:39,636 Speaker 1: taking your temperature rectally. 453 00:26:39,476 --> 00:26:42,116 Speaker 8: That's right, which in the screaming light, I should think 454 00:26:42,436 --> 00:26:45,956 Speaker 8: cause your temperature to rise for wholly independent reasons. 455 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:49,356 Speaker 1: Templar is Catholic, of course, and as someone who grew 456 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:51,636 Speaker 1: up in the nineteen sixties, this is a world she 457 00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:52,876 Speaker 1: knew intimately. 458 00:26:53,556 --> 00:26:57,836 Speaker 8: I married into a family where my husband's considerably older brothers, 459 00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:01,316 Speaker 8: who'd had their kids in the forties and fifties, had 460 00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:07,436 Speaker 8: ten and twelve each. His only sister, very sensibly joined 461 00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:10,916 Speaker 8: a religious order and only left after her reproductive years 462 00:27:10,916 --> 00:27:13,916 Speaker 8: were over, although I don't really think that was her motivation, 463 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:14,916 Speaker 8: but who can tell. 464 00:27:15,756 --> 00:27:18,116 Speaker 1: Birth control was a big part of what Catholics talked 465 00:27:18,156 --> 00:27:21,156 Speaker 1: and thought about in those years, and Rock is right 466 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:24,276 Speaker 1: in the middle of that obsession. He actually runs a 467 00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:27,436 Speaker 1: rhythm methic clinic in Boston. He's one of the researchers 468 00:27:27,476 --> 00:27:31,036 Speaker 1: who helps establish when in a woman's cycle ovulation occurs. 469 00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:35,036 Speaker 1: That's how he makes his reputation. So after John Rock 470 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:38,396 Speaker 1: gets FDA approval for his birth control pill, he writes 471 00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:41,276 Speaker 1: a best selling book called The Time Has Come, where 472 00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:45,076 Speaker 1: he does a brilliant bit of casuistry. Is the pill 473 00:27:45,276 --> 00:27:49,076 Speaker 1: more like a classic artificial method like the condom? Or 474 00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 1: is it more of a semi natural method like rhythm? 475 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:55,556 Speaker 1: And ROC's answer in his book is the pill is 476 00:27:55,676 --> 00:27:58,636 Speaker 1: like rhythm. It uses the very same hormones found in 477 00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:02,556 Speaker 1: a woman's body, estrogen and progesterone. And what does it do. 478 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 1: It mimics pregnancy, which is the most natural of states. 479 00:28:07,316 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 3: The chemical subjects in these pills acts in the body 480 00:28:13,676 --> 00:28:18,116 Speaker 3: exactly like progesterone to the mother's over reproduces. 481 00:28:18,796 --> 00:28:21,756 Speaker 1: It's Rock again explaining the science to David Brinkley. 482 00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:27,716 Speaker 3: And it has the same effect on the regulating mechanism 483 00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:34,916 Speaker 3: for ripening eggs and for the releasing eggs. If a 484 00:28:34,996 --> 00:28:42,636 Speaker 3: woman takes the pill month after month after month and 485 00:28:42,676 --> 00:28:47,276 Speaker 3: continuously not missing any day at all, she is in 486 00:28:47,316 --> 00:28:52,396 Speaker 3: effect establishing just a pseudo pregnancy and make believe pregnancy 487 00:28:53,476 --> 00:28:53,956 Speaker 3: early on. 488 00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 1: Leslie Tetler says, many people in the Catholic Church, important people, theologians, 489 00:28:59,836 --> 00:29:02,276 Speaker 1: church leaders, sided with Rock's argument. 490 00:29:03,036 --> 00:29:06,956 Speaker 8: All the language, all the logic of Catholic teaching on 491 00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:12,156 Speaker 8: contraception presumes barrier method, you know, kind of intervening in 492 00:29:12,196 --> 00:29:15,236 Speaker 8: the midst of this act. I think many of them 493 00:29:15,276 --> 00:29:18,156 Speaker 8: see the pill as something completely different. You take the 494 00:29:18,156 --> 00:29:19,836 Speaker 8: pill in the morning and has nothing to do with 495 00:29:19,836 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 8: the sexual act unless you're in a very unusual relationship, 496 00:29:22,796 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 8: and you don't have to mess about in the genital area, 497 00:29:28,276 --> 00:29:31,516 Speaker 8: you don't have to think about interrupting the sex act. 498 00:29:31,716 --> 00:29:36,476 Speaker 8: It's great stuff. You know, it's psychologically unhooked from all 499 00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:42,196 Speaker 8: the messiness of traditional contraception, and I think theologians into 500 00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:44,156 Speaker 8: it that this might be a way to pry the 501 00:29:44,196 --> 00:29:47,756 Speaker 8: whole thing open, to at least create a debate where 502 00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:49,876 Speaker 8: at least officially none can exist. 503 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:53,676 Speaker 1: It helps that Rock is who he is, a doctor 504 00:29:53,676 --> 00:29:56,476 Speaker 1: on the front lines, who's been serving the Catholic poor 505 00:29:56,516 --> 00:29:59,996 Speaker 1: of Boston his whole career, listening to the troubles of 506 00:29:59,996 --> 00:30:03,196 Speaker 1: women who had eight children and too many miscarriages to 507 00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:07,796 Speaker 1: count all by the time they were thirty. The cardinals 508 00:30:07,836 --> 00:30:10,556 Speaker 1: and the Pope were on the front lines like he was. 509 00:30:11,156 --> 00:30:14,276 Speaker 1: They were sitting celibate behind the walls of the Vatican. 510 00:30:15,356 --> 00:30:18,556 Speaker 8: You take John Paul a second for example. We're leaping 511 00:30:18,596 --> 00:30:21,236 Speaker 8: ahead a bit from the sixties here, but you know 512 00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:25,396 Speaker 8: it's still the sixties issues. Yeah, all his talks on 513 00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 8: theology of the body, which are lovely and lyrical and 514 00:30:30,556 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 8: also make the case for not using contraception, But when 515 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:38,076 Speaker 8: you finish reading them, which is hard, you come away 516 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 8: with a sense that he's not talking about real bodies, 517 00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:43,876 Speaker 8: you know, not bodies that get tired, that get hungry, 518 00:30:44,076 --> 00:30:47,556 Speaker 8: that ache to love someone, that can have too many children, 519 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:50,036 Speaker 8: that can get pregnant right now. 520 00:30:50,796 --> 00:30:54,436 Speaker 1: But that's the weird thing that you have. It's incredibly 521 00:30:54,476 --> 00:31:00,516 Speaker 1: intimate discussion of female reproduction done by essentially middle aged 522 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:01,276 Speaker 1: seven men. 523 00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:04,276 Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly. And you know, a lot of the men 524 00:31:04,436 --> 00:31:06,876 Speaker 8: I interviewed because they were ordained in the forties and 525 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:11,156 Speaker 8: the fifties, some even in the late thirties, they had 526 00:31:11,196 --> 00:31:14,756 Speaker 8: gone to seminary at the age of fourteen. And I 527 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 8: really think that many of them, certainly during the period 528 00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:22,196 Speaker 8: of upheople around birth control, had themselves not had sexual experience. 529 00:31:22,996 --> 00:31:24,636 Speaker 8: All of them said to me, he said, you know, 530 00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:27,916 Speaker 8: when I was a young priest, I really hated for 531 00:31:27,956 --> 00:31:30,796 Speaker 8: anyone to confess to sexual sin because I didn't know 532 00:31:30,836 --> 00:31:32,076 Speaker 8: what I was talking about. 533 00:31:33,156 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 1: In response to Rock's challenge, the Vaticans set up an 534 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:41,276 Speaker 1: international commission in the early nineteen sixties seventy two people, theologians, 535 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:46,036 Speaker 1: medical experts. They deliberated for three years and they end 536 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:49,556 Speaker 1: up voting sixty eight to four in favor of the pill. 537 00:31:50,636 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 1: And what is the Commission's argument for voting in favor 538 00:31:54,196 --> 00:31:57,716 Speaker 1: a Jesuits argument. They say that you can't make a 539 00:31:57,796 --> 00:32:02,796 Speaker 1: general rule about contraception, that each case is different, every family, 540 00:32:02,916 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 1: every woman faces her own unique set of issues. When 541 00:32:07,676 --> 00:32:10,316 Speaker 1: the Pope gave his blessing to the rhythm method, it 542 00:32:10,436 --> 00:32:12,836 Speaker 1: was because he saw that the women of Italy were 543 00:32:12,916 --> 00:32:17,916 Speaker 1: suffering in the years after the war, poor overwhelmed that 544 00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:23,156 Speaker 1: Pope that consideration of the particulars of their situation softened 545 00:32:23,356 --> 00:32:27,996 Speaker 1: his commitment to principle. In the early nineteen sixties, the 546 00:32:28,036 --> 00:32:31,916 Speaker 1: Papal Commission took the same position with the pill. The 547 00:32:31,996 --> 00:32:35,756 Speaker 1: chairman of the majority report was a priest named Joseph Fuchs, 548 00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:38,676 Speaker 1: and everyone thought he was going to rule against Rock 549 00:32:39,076 --> 00:32:43,036 Speaker 1: because he was a conservative, but he was also a Jesuit. 550 00:32:43,316 --> 00:32:46,516 Speaker 13: Funny thing happens is that Fuchs, while he's on the committee, 551 00:32:46,876 --> 00:32:50,196 Speaker 13: starts listening to the late people on the Commission, and 552 00:32:50,236 --> 00:32:53,636 Speaker 13: the lay people start talking in a way that they 553 00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:57,436 Speaker 13: are entertaining particularities that he never entertained. 554 00:32:57,996 --> 00:33:00,996 Speaker 1: That's father Keenan, who he met in the previous episode 555 00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 1: The Jesuit Scholar in Rome. 556 00:33:03,236 --> 00:33:06,316 Speaker 13: Only the married couple fully understands that as a matter 557 00:33:06,356 --> 00:33:09,236 Speaker 13: of fact, this husband or this mother is going to 558 00:33:09,396 --> 00:33:12,036 Speaker 13: lose their job. They have to take care of this. 559 00:33:12,236 --> 00:33:15,596 Speaker 13: They can't stay at home. All of a sudden, all 560 00:33:15,636 --> 00:33:19,436 Speaker 13: these different issues are not being entertained, and he realizes, 561 00:33:19,596 --> 00:33:23,356 Speaker 13: we have to be teaching people how to make judgments 562 00:33:23,356 --> 00:33:26,356 Speaker 13: and conscience because they're going to have circumstances that we 563 00:33:26,396 --> 00:33:29,996 Speaker 13: can never anticipate, and they're going to have the better 564 00:33:30,076 --> 00:33:32,796 Speaker 13: ability than we who don't have that information. 565 00:33:33,556 --> 00:33:37,476 Speaker 1: There are too many cases and too many particulars. So 566 00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:39,916 Speaker 1: in the end, Fuchs says that the decision ought to 567 00:33:39,956 --> 00:33:43,116 Speaker 1: lie with the wife and the husband. The birth control 568 00:33:43,236 --> 00:33:46,356 Speaker 1: is a case that each Catholic must decide for herself. 569 00:33:46,916 --> 00:33:49,036 Speaker 13: He's teaching that you don't need to go to a 570 00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:51,436 Speaker 13: priest for a casuist. You have to become a casuist. 571 00:33:51,636 --> 00:33:52,516 Speaker 13: That's what he's doing. 572 00:33:53,196 --> 00:33:57,876 Speaker 1: For two years. Pope Paul six pondered the commission's findings. Finally, 573 00:33:57,996 --> 00:34:01,756 Speaker 1: in the Humani Vitae Encyclical of July twenty eighth, nineteen 574 00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:05,476 Speaker 1: sixty eight, he made up his mind. He looked back 575 00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:09,316 Speaker 1: at the nineteen thirty ruling of his predecessor, and he said, 576 00:34:10,156 --> 00:34:14,036 Speaker 1: all of this elegant casuistry around the pill is irrelevant. 577 00:34:14,556 --> 00:34:19,716 Speaker 1: I cannot overturn received papal teaching. At the church's crucial moment, 578 00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:22,796 Speaker 1: when Pope Paul the sixth had the chance to offer 579 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:26,876 Speaker 1: consolation to millions of Catholics around the world, he flinched. 580 00:34:29,556 --> 00:34:34,716 Speaker 1: He put a principle ahead of the particulars. Don't let 581 00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:37,236 Speaker 1: anyone tell you that the courageous man is the man 582 00:34:37,276 --> 00:34:41,276 Speaker 1: of principle. The courageous person is actually the one who 583 00:34:41,316 --> 00:34:46,356 Speaker 1: knows when to put principle aside. John Rock retired to 584 00:34:46,396 --> 00:34:49,596 Speaker 1: a small town in New Hampshire because he was never 585 00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:52,836 Speaker 1: interested in charging for his services. He ran out of 586 00:34:52,876 --> 00:34:55,756 Speaker 1: money in his later years. He had to live simply. 587 00:34:56,476 --> 00:34:59,596 Speaker 2: He starts as day reading and answering mail critical and 588 00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:03,916 Speaker 2: otherwise from readers of his book advocating the burst control pill. 589 00:35:04,716 --> 00:35:07,516 Speaker 1: David Brinkley sat with him in his office and they 590 00:35:07,556 --> 00:35:10,916 Speaker 1: re enacted his daily ritual. John Rock holds a letter 591 00:35:10,916 --> 00:35:11,676 Speaker 1: in his hands. 592 00:35:11,956 --> 00:35:14,876 Speaker 9: Your article in the magazines in regard to birth control 593 00:35:14,956 --> 00:35:17,996 Speaker 9: as rather nauseating. Did you ever think of the day 594 00:35:18,076 --> 00:35:20,516 Speaker 9: you would meet your God an account for your work 595 00:35:20,556 --> 00:35:23,716 Speaker 9: while on earth? I can hardly believe that you or 596 00:35:23,756 --> 00:35:26,956 Speaker 9: anyone else can interfere with the divine natural law. 597 00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:37,836 Speaker 3: God will provide. I am I'm sorry I upset your stomach. 598 00:35:39,996 --> 00:35:44,236 Speaker 3: You may be very sure that I've gone through some 599 00:35:44,476 --> 00:35:45,676 Speaker 3: entertains myself. 600 00:35:46,956 --> 00:35:47,316 Speaker 9: Oh this. 601 00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:52,236 Speaker 3: Problem that I am so concerned. 602 00:35:51,836 --> 00:35:55,836 Speaker 1: Is for John Rock. His obligation as a Catholic was 603 00:35:55,916 --> 00:35:59,596 Speaker 1: never to the mute enforcement of natural law. He went 604 00:35:59,676 --> 00:36:04,196 Speaker 1: into the tenements of Boston remember and felt overwhelming sorrow. 605 00:36:05,436 --> 00:36:10,596 Speaker 3: As far as meeting my God, I I've been taught 606 00:36:10,636 --> 00:36:14,596 Speaker 3: and I believe that he's here with me all the time. 607 00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:19,716 Speaker 3: As I have to meet him every day. I really 608 00:36:19,796 --> 00:36:24,516 Speaker 3: try to conformed what he tells me. Here's the thing 609 00:36:24,516 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 3: to do. 610 00:36:26,116 --> 00:36:30,356 Speaker 1: He shared the obligation of the Jesuits to console those 611 00:36:30,676 --> 00:36:31,676 Speaker 1: in need of consolation. 612 00:36:32,796 --> 00:36:36,236 Speaker 3: Perhaps I'm a little hard of hearing at times, but 613 00:36:37,356 --> 00:36:38,636 Speaker 3: I do my best. 614 00:36:39,476 --> 00:36:42,556 Speaker 1: As Wanda Runners said, I think I love the man. 615 00:36:48,356 --> 00:36:52,796 Speaker 1: Revisionist History is produced by Mee Label and Jacob Smith 616 00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:57,956 Speaker 1: with Camille Baptista. Our editor is Julia Barton. FLAONN Williams 617 00:36:58,076 --> 00:37:02,236 Speaker 1: is our engineer. Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music 618 00:37:02,276 --> 00:37:06,796 Speaker 1: by Luis Skira. Special thanks to Carle Migliori, Heather Feine, 619 00:37:07,156 --> 00:37:14,156 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Maya Kaney, and Jacob Iceberg. Revisionist history is 620 00:37:14,156 --> 00:37:17,876 Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Badwell.