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Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Thursday. Welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Chuck Podcast. A little quick programming note. This is my

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Speaker 1: ASSD update for the month of August, and in fact

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Speaker 1: we will not be dropping an episode on Monday on

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Speaker 1: Labor Day. We will be though, doing Tuesday, so the

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Speaker 1: same three updates next week, but instead of Monday, Wednesday Thursday,

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Speaker 1: it will be Tuesday Wednesday Thursday. So just a little

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Speaker 1: programming note on that front. Obviously, begin tip and Wednesday

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Speaker 1: afternoon evening here for Thursday morning. The big news, correctly

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Speaker 1: consuming much of the much of the political and news

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Speaker 1: world is the mass shooting in Minneapolis at that Catholic school.

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Speaker 1: Given what I did for a living doing live television

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Speaker 1: and anchor many many A special reports when it came

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Speaker 1: to school shootings, sadly, there's a pattern. There's a pattern

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Speaker 1: in coverage. There's a pattern, you know, where there's sort

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Speaker 1: of there's there's a lot of this that becomes very familiar.

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Speaker 1: There is a quick, sort of all consuming moment and

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Speaker 1: then as fast as people pay attention is as fast

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Speaker 1: as the coverage usually goes away. Uh. There in many

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Speaker 1: cases this is fitting a pattern. Young person in their

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Speaker 1: twenties shoots up a school that they once attended, a

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Speaker 1: manifesto that sort of indicates a lot of mental health challenges,

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Speaker 1: and you ask yourself, how did this person get all

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Speaker 1: these weapons? And there's good, there's so, there's there's certainly,

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Speaker 1: And this is where I hope we can have political

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Speaker 1: leaders try to have an uh, what I would call

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Speaker 1: an an conversation rather than an or conversation. Too many

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Speaker 1: times with these school shootings, I think everybody wants everybody's

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Speaker 1: the wrong word. There's sometimes a political instinct too. If

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Speaker 1: you believe in an idea, if you believe in gun control,

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Speaker 1: or you believe that this is a mental health issue,

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Speaker 1: whichever one it is, you find you find a piece

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Speaker 1: something in the current investigation that reinforces your belief and

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Speaker 1: you sort of dismiss the idea that there are other

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Speaker 1: factors that contribute here beyond what your core belief is

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Speaker 1: the motivation of these things, whether you believe it's a

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Speaker 1: mental health is the primary issue, Access to guns is

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Speaker 1: the primary issue, School security is the primary issue. Rhetoric

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Speaker 1: rhetoric online being the issue right there, And my encouragement

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Speaker 1: would be I wish we could get to a place

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Speaker 1: where we had some and conversations. Let's look at the

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Speaker 1: access to weapons and the conversation and the rhetoric that

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Speaker 1: takes place in social media, and the divisive and divisiveness

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Speaker 1: and hate that's going around, and the issue with protecting

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Speaker 1: kids in schools and the issue of mental health for

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Speaker 1: young people. I think we all know, unfortunately that we're

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Speaker 1: not going to have and the conversations that we'd like

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Speaker 1: to have. This particular story has the potential of truly

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Speaker 1: becoming very divisive in our culture wars, given that the

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Speaker 1: shooter transitioned from being a man to a woman, This

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Speaker 1: is already something that many on social media are using

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Speaker 1: and want to make certain points. Again, it's an attempt

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Speaker 1: to cherry pick something to reinforce a core belief, regardless

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Speaker 1: of any of the other factors that may be involved

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Speaker 1: in this situation. So this is one of those times

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Speaker 1: where you're just where I get hopeful that the political

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Speaker 1: community will be mature and sort of rise above partisanship,

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Speaker 1: rise above the ability to exploit something for a cheap

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Speaker 1: political gain. And yet what world am I living in? Right?

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Speaker 1: I think we know that this has every chance of

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Speaker 1: being politicized in all the wrong ways. I hope I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: I hope that the online conversation is the outlier and

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Speaker 1: that the in person conversations that the focus is in

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Speaker 1: the right direction here. Unlikely. I'm aware of the world

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Speaker 1: we live in, but it is this is something where

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Speaker 1: I wish we could have this and conversation because you

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Speaker 1: have rabid people who don't even want to touch the

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Speaker 1: access to guns issue, and you have others that don't

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Speaker 1: want to have certain conversations about rhetoric online, about about identity,

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Speaker 1: and so this is going to be one of those

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Speaker 1: moments where you need a really good leader, and perhaps

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Speaker 1: in a tough moment, we don't have the leadership in

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Speaker 1: this country to rise to the occasion that's necessary. But

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Speaker 1: hope Spring's eternal, and perhaps and perhaps cooler heads and

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Speaker 1: more empathetic heads are going to prevail here. But we

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Speaker 1: shall see. We are at a moment for what it's worth. Right,

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Speaker 1: We're going to have some federal agencies. We've already had

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Speaker 1: the FBI director pretty high profile talk about that he

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Speaker 1: wants to make that they're investigating this as a hate

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Speaker 1: crime against Catholics, and they're looking at this as domestic terrorism.

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Speaker 1: I've heard from some folks fearing that the calling it

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Speaker 1: domestic terrorism will then single out certain groups of people.

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Speaker 1: I am. I am hopeful that does not happen, but

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Speaker 1: it does serve as a reminder of the importance of

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Speaker 1: whether you trust law enforcement or not. And there's actually

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Speaker 1: some new polling data indicating just how polarized we are

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Speaker 1: in our trust or distrust of law enforcement agencies right

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Speaker 1: now that it is completely based on what your political

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Speaker 1: party is when it comes to your views of ICE,

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Speaker 1: your views of the Department of Homeland Security, your views

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Speaker 1: of the Department of Justice, your views of the FBI.

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Speaker 1: Just to give you a taste of this conversation on

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Speaker 1: the Department of Justice. From the big picture standpoint, the

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Speaker 1: numbers haven't changed all that much. Right last year overall,

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Speaker 1: the Department of Justice in this Pew survey had a

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Speaker 1: forty three favorable rating versus a forty four percent unfavorable rating. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this year right now, it's thirty nine percent favorable forty

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Speaker 1: six percent unfavorable. But boy, when you go inside the numbers,

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Speaker 1: you start to see the politic how politicized the views

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Speaker 1: of these agencies are. Majority of Republicans now rate the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice favorably. It's up eighteen points from Republican

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Speaker 1: views of the Department of Justice last year. And guess

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Speaker 1: what the trend is the opposite among Democrats. Just twenty

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Speaker 1: eight percent of Democrats view the Justice Department favorably, and

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Speaker 1: that's down twenty seven points from last year. You can

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Speaker 1: see similar polarized movements when it comes to the favorable

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Speaker 1: or unfavorable ratings of the Department of Homeland Security. You

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Speaker 1: have sixty eight percent of Republicans viewing it favorably, just

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Speaker 1: twenty six percent of Democrats view it favorably. Last year,

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Speaker 1: Democrats were more likely than Republicans to rate DHS favorably.

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Speaker 1: Partisan gap on ICE is wider there than under any

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Speaker 1: other group that was tested by Pew. Seventy two percent

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Speaker 1: of Republicans favorable, have a favorable view towards ICE seventy

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Speaker 1: two percent, twenty one percent unfavorable. In contrast, Democrats, literally

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Speaker 1: it's a mirror image, just thirteen percent of a favorable

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Speaker 1: rating of ICE, seventy eight percent unfavorable on that front,

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Speaker 1: and obviously on the FBI itself, just to give you

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Speaker 1: a sense of that, on the FBI, you still you

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Speaker 1: have a fifty four percent of Republicans have a favorable

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Speaker 1: rating of the FBI, and right now a ray of

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Speaker 1: Democrats have a favorable rating of the FBI a forty

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Speaker 1: five percent. It shows you that it hasn't totally trickled

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Speaker 1: down just yet. There, for what it's worth, there actually

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Speaker 1: are places where both where there isn't a polarized view

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Speaker 1: of certain federal agencies. The National Park Service, basically seventy

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Speaker 1: percent of Republicans and Democrats have a favorable view of

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Speaker 1: the National Park Service. Let's see how the dosee cuts

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Speaker 1: impact that over time. The National Weather Service has a

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Speaker 1: fairly high favorable rating sixty one percent of Republicans, seventy

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Speaker 1: three percent of Democrats. Oddly, NASA is a bit more polarized,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not. While it has a net favorable rating,

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Speaker 1: more Democrats have a higher favorable rating of NASA than Republicans,

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Speaker 1: and the Social Security Administration as a huge partisan divide,

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Speaker 1: with more Republicans having a positive view of it versus

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Speaker 1: versus Democrats. But the point is, we are living in

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Speaker 1: a time where I think most Americans, and I think

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Speaker 1: correctly now view the at least the federal law enforcement

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Speaker 1: agencies through very partisan eyes. Because they are being run

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Speaker 1: by very partisan actors who are not trying to hide

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Speaker 1: their partisanship. Right, Pambody is a Republican operative in the

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Speaker 1: role of Attorney General, Cash Bettel a Republican operative in

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Speaker 1: the role of FBI director. That's not healthy for our society.

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Speaker 1: This is why there is a real debate here if

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Speaker 1: the more the president wants to concentrate power through him

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Speaker 1: in the executive branch and control these agencies that multiple

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Speaker 1: presidents left and right believe they had to create some

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Speaker 1: distance from in order to keep credibility with these agencies,

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Speaker 1: whether it is the FBI, whether it is the Department

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Speaker 1: of Justice, whether it is the Federal Reserve. And when

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Speaker 1: you concentrate all this in moments like we're dealing with

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Speaker 1: where we need where a very political response is the

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Speaker 1: last thing the situation needs, you're going to have extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: partisan actors whose first instinct is to exploit for partisan gain,

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Speaker 1: and it is only going to erode the credibility of

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Speaker 1: these agencies. Right now, I gave you the partisan leanings here. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: independence are essentially moving there. In these cases, the Independence

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Speaker 1: look slightly more left than right as far as their

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Speaker 1: ratings are concerned, and I think independence just look at

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Speaker 1: it a little more straightforward, not necessarily through a partisan lens,

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Speaker 1: but through a reality lens. And the reality is the

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Speaker 1: right believes the left politicize these agencies, the left believes

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Speaker 1: the rights politicizing these agencies. If both sides are saying

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Speaker 1: these agencies have been politicized over the last two years,

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Speaker 1: I promise you independents are going to view that the

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Speaker 1: agencies are always being politicized, and they're going to line

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Speaker 1: up essentially against the political party and power in that one.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the situation that we're going to

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Speaker 1: see here and let's see, let's see how political this

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Speaker 1: investigation itself gets. But this is we are dealing with

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Speaker 1: a very with a very skeptical public in general right now,

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Speaker 1: where everybody is looking at sees everything through a very

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Speaker 1: partisan lens, and in many cases that's exactly the way

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. This is a feature of the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: They don't view They're okay, if it's seen positively only

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Speaker 1: by their voters, that is an acceptable outcome, and that's

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Speaker 1: that's I think the ultimate problem with the current situation

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Speaker 1: we're living in is that this is the first administration

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Speaker 1: that didn't care whether people that didn't vote for them

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Speaker 1: respected their ability to govern one and two whether they

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Speaker 1: ought to govern for people that didn't vote for them.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is this is unfortunately a time

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Speaker 1: where you need max trust in your law enforcement agencies,

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Speaker 1: and we are at a time where we probably are

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Speaker 1: as low as it's been probably since the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: certainly has polarized on these agencies. We didn't have the

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Speaker 1: same amount of polling that we do today, and how

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Speaker 1: often would we do it, But it is it is

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Speaker 1: nonetheless a we're in a period of low trust. We

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Speaker 1: know this across the board, and so it is like, again,

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Speaker 1: you hope that the moment is heavy enough that even

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Speaker 1: the most partisan actor realizes this is not the time

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Speaker 1: for partisanship. But if passed his prologue, it's unlikely that

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Speaker 1: your hope is going to turn into reality. So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna pivot there. I know that's kind of a it

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Speaker 1: kind of depressed, obviously a depressing way to open this conversation.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to just sort of take you through, believe

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Speaker 1: it or not, my guest today is sort of in

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Speaker 1: some ways couldn't be more disconnected to the to the

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Speaker 1: topic that I opened up with here, and that is

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Speaker 1: de More Smith. The Moore Smith was the executive direct

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Speaker 1: of the NFL Players Association for over fifteen years. He

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Speaker 1: just recently left, and he wrote what some might describe

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Speaker 1: as a tell all book, certainly is a very illuminating

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Speaker 1: look at the business of the NFL through the lens

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Speaker 1: of the labor leader for the players he was at.

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Speaker 1: If you think about the era with which Demorris Smith

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Speaker 1: took a first, the first non player to run to

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Speaker 1: run it, he was a high powered attorney in Washington,

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Speaker 1: still is a high powered attorney here in DC. In

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Speaker 1: case you didn't know, both the Major League Baseball Players

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Speaker 1: Association and the NFL Players Association are headquartered here in DC,

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Speaker 1: not in New York. It's always been sort of one

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Speaker 1: of the unique wrinkles of the sports world. When I

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Speaker 1: was early on, when I was a co founder of

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Speaker 1: the co founding managing editor for the Sports Business Daily,

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Speaker 1: which is now the Sports Business Journal, it was a

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Speaker 1: pleasant surprise how much of the sports sort of legal

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Speaker 1: industry at the time, the sports business industry was and

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Speaker 1: is in Washington. Back then, the biggest, the most important

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Speaker 1: agent in the World. David Falk, who was the agent

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Speaker 1: for Michael Jordan. His headquarters was in the DMV here,

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Speaker 1: So it is needless to say as a political reporter,

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Speaker 1: I actually interacted quite a bit with the folks over

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Speaker 1: at the NFLPA because they're local and I would see

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Speaker 1: them at various events, and I certainly had my own

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Speaker 1: interest in this, and that's how I read this book.

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Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated with the with the business of sports,

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Speaker 1: just as a hobby and briefly as a professional reporter.

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Speaker 1: And I will tell you this is probably the most

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Speaker 1: thorough book I've read that shows you that takes you

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Speaker 1: inside the business of the NFL. Look, he's the book.

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Speaker 1: He does settle a few scores in the book, and uh,

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Speaker 1: we don't you know that. We can we can have

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Speaker 1: a debate whether that's a good idea to put in

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Speaker 1: a book or not. You can sometimes create buzz. I've

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Speaker 1: had many a media colleague write a memoir where they've

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Speaker 1: decided to settle personal scores and I kind of think

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Speaker 1: it's a bad look them. Uh you know, it can

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Speaker 1: it can create a bad look if you're not careful

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Speaker 1: on that front, because sometimes, uh, that stuff doesn't go away,

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Speaker 1: and when when people see it in a printed page,

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Speaker 1: they freak out even more. But I wouldn't say it

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Speaker 1: was I wouldn't say that that that's what Demores did,

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Speaker 1: in fairness to him, but it's an unvarnished you know,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely his point of view, and it's it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting and I do think it actually paints a more

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Speaker 1: complex picture of the job Roger Goodell has. And that's

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Speaker 1: part of a conversation that we get into. But I

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Speaker 1: do I want to take a minute or two here.

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Speaker 1: We're about to enter in, I think, into an era

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Speaker 1: of labor strife in sports. We've had a couple of eras,

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Speaker 1: and part of it has to do is whenever the

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Speaker 1: sports world sort of takes a bigger leap financially, usually

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Speaker 1: what follows is labor strife. Right the sports world and

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Speaker 1: cable television was starting to become a big deal in

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Speaker 1: the eighties, it's not surprising that we had multiple work

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Speaker 1: stoppages in baseball and in the NFL early nineties, peak

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Speaker 1: cable money coming in, all this extra money coming into

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Speaker 1: the leagues, players wanting their share, and fights back and forth.

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Speaker 1: The nineties were filled. I think every major League. I

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Speaker 1: think every major league sport went through some sort of

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Speaker 1: labor strife. The four major sports went through some sort

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Speaker 1: of labor strife. In the nineties. We had relative peace

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Speaker 1: for a while, but when you look at the amount

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Speaker 1: of money coming in via streaming, you look at the

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Speaker 1: amount of private equity coming into sports ownership, we are

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Speaker 1: now seeing multiple teams sell for billions of dollars, multi

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Speaker 1: billions of dollars. We already know that a Baseball lockout

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Speaker 1: of some sort labor contention is coming. Baseball's desperate for

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Speaker 1: a salary cap. They canceled a World Series to try

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Speaker 1: to get it in nineteen ninety four and couldn't get it.

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Speaker 1: But they definitely have a problem. The question with Baseball's

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Speaker 1: economics is whether their problem is they have to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to get the thirty franchises to share more revenue.

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Speaker 1: All the three sports that have a salary cap, the

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Speaker 1: franchises share their revenue. I mean, the NFL is one

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Speaker 1: of the great socialist exercises that we've had in America

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Speaker 1: where they share pretty much all revenue pretty equally. You

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Speaker 1: can make a little bit of extra side hustle money

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Speaker 1: in your stadium and with your local radio rights and

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Speaker 1: things like that and merchandising. But for the most part,

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Speaker 1: as the popularity of the NFL goes up, everybody's value

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Speaker 1: goes up. Baseball is the outlier in that they don't

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Speaker 1: have a salary cap and the teams don't share revenue,

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Speaker 1: and you have really uneven ownership. You have some really

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Speaker 1: good owners, strategic like those behind the Los Angeles Dodgers,

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Speaker 1: and then you have some really bad owners or owners

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Speaker 1: that are just in over their head right that still

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Speaker 1: want to kind of manage it like a mom and

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Speaker 1: pop shop, like the small business when you just can't

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Speaker 1: compete under those scenarios and the economics of how you

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Speaker 1: watch games where that revenue comes from basically the death

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Speaker 1: of the regional sports networks which have been which was

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Speaker 1: such an important feeder to the rise of baseball valuations

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Speaker 1: back in the day. So it is with all of

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Speaker 1: this extra money and all these competition for our eyeballs

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Speaker 1: and the attention economy, as the legacy media sort of

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Speaker 1: fades and the streaming media starts to take over, and

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Speaker 1: Amazon and Google and all these folks want us on

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Speaker 1: their platforms and they're now using sports to do it.

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Speaker 1: This is going to change the economics of all of

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Speaker 1: these sports leagues. So you know, I'm not here to

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing this to just make a hot take prediction.

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Speaker 1: I'm just telling you when you look at the other

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Speaker 1: periods of time where we've had spikes and labor strife,

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Speaker 1: they did coincide was sort of when revenues began to

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Speaker 1: change and when the owners figured out more ways to

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Speaker 1: make money, more ways to raise the value of their franchises.

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Speaker 1: In football, we're going to have I think an interesting

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Speaker 1: and this is something that he and I tackle at

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Speaker 1: the end of the interview, but football's you know, the

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Speaker 1: NFL is traditionally the players have been and harder to

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Speaker 1: hold together in labor disputes versus the NBA and baseball,

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Speaker 1: And part of that is the I think football players,

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Speaker 1: you know that your career may be as short as

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Speaker 1: you know, the average career lifespan is three years, So

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Speaker 1: losing a year, losing games, you know, you're talking about

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Speaker 1: losing ten, fifteen to twenty percent of your lifetime potential

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Speaker 1: earnings playing the sport professionally versus baseball or basketball, which

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Speaker 1: feels like you have a little more, a little longer

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Speaker 1: runway to play professionally. But the entire attitude I think

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Speaker 1: of NFL players is going to change as this new

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Speaker 1: generation of high school and college players who are benefiting

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Speaker 1: from a real free market to shop there, to shop

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Speaker 1: their labor around town and around the country, and the

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Speaker 1: idea that once they get to the NFL they actually

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Speaker 1: have fewer rights than when they were in college about

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Speaker 1: where they work. I just think that it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a different attitude among players when they get up

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Speaker 1: and realize the NFL is so restrictive of our ability

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Speaker 1: of player movement, the ability to make money in your

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Speaker 1: first four or five years, versus how quickly you can

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Speaker 1: monetize your success if you're a high school athlete or

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Speaker 1: a college athlete, once you get to the pros, you

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Speaker 1: actually might have a harder time monetizing your success or

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Speaker 1: making money off your name, image and likeness. So it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a I think a fascinating conundrum is coming,

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Speaker 1: and which also means we're going to have collective bargaining

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Speaker 1: at some point in college sports, right if they're paying

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Speaker 1: them now, don't you know? Right now? Professional the four

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Speaker 1: major leagues, essentially the league and the players split revenue

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Speaker 1: fifty to fifty right, and so of revenue distributed it

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Speaker 1: as salaries, salary caps, or you know, et cetera. The

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Speaker 1: other fifty percent goes to the league or to the teams,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Well, right now, these colleges, the conferences keep

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Speaker 1: all the money. There's no there's no requirement that they

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Speaker 1: share increased media revenues with the with the players. I

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Speaker 1: promise you that's going to change. We've had a few

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Speaker 1: attempts at collective bargaining in college level, Northwestern's football team

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Speaker 1: a few years back. But I think this is something

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Speaker 1: for obvious reasons, right, there's really no you know, just

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Speaker 1: as universities are trying to get their arms around this,

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Speaker 1: they would like to create some form of a salary cap,

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Speaker 1: create some sort of guard rails here on money so

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't go totally haywire, and it's without any

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Speaker 1: rules to the road. But that tension is going to certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, how much do they try to hold back that.

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Speaker 1: So the point is is, if you love these sports,

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Speaker 1: you might have to prepare for some labor strife, heartburn

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Speaker 1: probably over the next decade that we're going to see

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Speaker 1: and likely at least baseball and football. I think basketball

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Speaker 1: seems okay for the sure, you know, medium term, but

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Speaker 1: I do think the impact of paying college athletes the

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Speaker 1: nil the freedom of movement is going to have an

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Speaker 1: interesting impact as those players then move to the to

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Speaker 1: the so called professional leagues from college, where when they

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Speaker 1: realize how restrictive things are. I think there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a movement and a demand to change that. All right,

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Speaker 1: So I hope, I hope you weren't too offended by

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Speaker 1: all these awkward transitions. You know, this is one of

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Speaker 1: those cases where, hey, you know, this is the world

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Speaker 1: we live in, and one of the things I want

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Speaker 1: to do with this podcast is sort of have the

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Speaker 1: ability to be three dimensional here where you you know,

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Speaker 1: in our daily lives, right, this is how it works.

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Speaker 1: There are things we focus on that are tragic, that

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Speaker 1: are terrible, there are things we focus on that are

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Speaker 1: light that that are nice distractions, and then there's the

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Speaker 1: stuff in between. And one thing that I promised to

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Speaker 1: deliver you on this podcast is a little bit of

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Speaker 1: all of it. So with those of you listening to

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Speaker 1: the full thing today, we'll sneak in a break and

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Speaker 1: when we come back, my conversation.

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Speaker 2: With Mr Smith.

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Speaker 1: So my interview today. My guest today is Demor Smith.

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Speaker 1: He is the former executive director of the NFLPA and D.

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Speaker 1: Before I get to you, I've got a quick little, uh,

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Speaker 1: sort of segue here and explanation as many as some

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Speaker 1: of you know, I got my I've been a journalists

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Speaker 1: for most of my professional life. For a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: I was the founding managing editor of something that is

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Speaker 1: known today as a sports business journal. Back then it

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Speaker 1: was called The Sports Business Daily, founded in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: four in the middle of all this labor strife. And

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Speaker 1: I remember back then one of the most important books

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Speaker 1: I read to sort of ground me and understanding the

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Speaker 1: business of sports was a book called Wards of the

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Speaker 1: Realm by John hell Yard, a Wall Street Journal reporter,

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Speaker 1: and it was just incredible history of the business of baseball,

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Speaker 1: both in the in the early days of baseball as

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Speaker 1: well as in the near term. And I always lamented

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Speaker 1: that there wasn't something about the business of the NFL

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Speaker 1: that had that same sort of depth and information to

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Speaker 1: it until I read your book, D. Turf Wars. It's

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Speaker 1: certainly a tough book. It is certainly one that you

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Speaker 1: don't pull any punches, but I also think, you know,

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Speaker 1: my son who's going to be majoring is majoring in

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Speaker 1: sports management in college right now. I think this is

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Speaker 1: a book that every sports management in sports marketing professor

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Speaker 1: should assign it as reading. I mean, you know, the look,

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Speaker 1: there's personality stuff in here, and that's that happens in

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Speaker 1: any book. But to explain how the business of the

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Speaker 1: NFL works, it's something we don't have a big, a

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Speaker 1: clear picture into and and that to me is is

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Speaker 1: this for me as a fan and a reporter, is

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Speaker 1: the big service I got out of this book. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I assume you noted that. I think you could say

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Speaker 1: Mark Leibovitch's book on the NFL sort of got to

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Speaker 1: it a little bit, but nothing with thord of this

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Speaker 1: depth and breadth on the on the business side. And

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Speaker 1: certainly the NFL would argue, well, one sided portrayal, fair,

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Speaker 1: you know, on that front. But you certainly are an

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Speaker 1: insider who is at least helping us shine a light

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Speaker 1: on what goes on inside these uh inside these boardrooms.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, that's that's a it's an honor

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Speaker 3: for you to compare me with Hellyard's book. I read

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Speaker 3: it a while back. As well. I believe that book

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Speaker 3: and of course Marvin Miller's book Home Football Game. I

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Speaker 3: wanted to write a book about football that was like

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Speaker 3: those two books, and I think the only way that

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Speaker 3: you can do it is certainly to do it in

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Speaker 3: a way that lends yourself to the criticism that it's

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Speaker 3: a one sided story. But I never tried to present

434
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: anything else other than this is my story, my journey

435
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: dealing with thirty two billionaires who run the business of football.

436
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: So let me just start with the basics here. Why

437
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: this book. Why did you think it was necessary to

438
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: tell the story?

439
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: I think so much of I think so much of

440
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 3: the business of sport, especially the business of football, is

441
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 3: covered in a way where people are sometimes doing their

442
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: best to keep their access. I think that.

443
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: That's that's sports journalism in general. By the way, it's

444
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: a huge it's a huge challenge. I always say, I

445
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: think it's harder sometimes being a sports journalist and a

446
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: political journalist, because I have Freedom of Information Act requests

447
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: that a government has to at least I don't know

448
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 1: if this government will, but at least has to attempt

449
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: to abide by. There's no such thing in a private enterprise.

450
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: You know the NFL. You know a team can tell

451
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: me to pound sand Well.

452
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: And as you know, they often do right. So at

453
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: the end of the day, I wanted to write it

454
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: for two reasons. One from you talked about Hailiard's book

455
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety four. Remember at the exact same time

456
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three was when the National Football League achieved

457
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: free agency through the Reggie White Fromian McNeil McNeil case.

458
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: And I think one I wanted to write it because

459
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: this is my story of dealing with thirty one billionaires.

460
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: But the other one is I started off the book

461
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 3: with this frame of mind that the National Bull League

462
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: was a microcosm of the way the country is being run.

463
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 3: And I came away with this concern that the country

464
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: is in a lot of ways being run the way

465
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 3: the NFL is run, and this idea that there are

466
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 3: a group of well meaning, loving, grandfatherly billionaires who were

467
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: simply out there to look after your and my best interest.

468
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 3: And it's somehow knee jerk or almost curated belief that

469
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: these oligarchs are the best people to run our democracy

470
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: and to control the levers of the press, healthcare, are

471
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,479
Speaker 3: access to information, I find that troubling, and so it

472
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: was a good opportunity for me to sit down and

473
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 3: tell my story but also shed a light on the

474
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 3: exact way that these guys think and operate, because at

475
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 3: times it is just utterly petty.

476
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: So it was interesting when I followed. I remember when

477
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: you were picked, and it was it was a surprise

478
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: because you weren't a former player obviously. You know, it's funny,

479
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, Gene Upshaw's legacy really does depend on where

480
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: you sit. Yep, you know. I looked at it through

481
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: the prism of all the other sports unions and thought,

482
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: why is the NFL sports union so weak? That's all

483
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: I ever thought about for my entire sort of fandom.

484
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: I never now if you look at Upshaw's time sort

485
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: of and you and you have blinders on it, you

486
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: don't see how the other leagues manage their owners and

487
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: how the other players associations worked, you would say, well, look,

488
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: he incrementally got a lot done right. They did finally

489
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: get free agency, they did finally get some you know,

490
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: better revenue sharing and things like that. But that's you know,

491
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: and so to me, your highing felt like this was

492
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: the player saying, well enough, is enough. We need somebody

493
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: who it doesn't matter. In some ways it might be

494
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,479
Speaker 1: better if they didn't quote wear the shield. That that

495
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: was the mindset of the players at that time, and

496
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: I think that sounds like you were skeptical you were

497
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: going to get hired because you assumed that was that

498
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: was the biggest problem you face, and in fact that

499
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: it turned out that was the best feature. I think.

500
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: I think that's right. I think to a certain extent,

501
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: the players back in two thousand and nine we're looking for,

502
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 3: as we would say, you know, if you love, if

503
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: you love the Godfather reference a war time kensigileary and

504
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: you know. But at as true as I think that is,

505
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: I think there's two caveats that are or maybe three

506
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: caveats that are incredibly important. One first, those guys woke

507
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: up one day and Gene Upshaw, who had run the

508
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: union in for as long as many of them were alive,

509
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: was dead. And I think that that made that group

510
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: of Drew Brees, Brian Dawkins, Mike Rabol, Jeff Saturday, Dominique Foxworth,

511
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 3: Kevin Maway. I think that made those guys certainly older

512
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 3: from a mature standpoint than in many of the leaders

513
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: that I had to work with later Number two, you know, Chuck,

514
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: we were headed into a war and and I think

515
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 3: the players made a decision that they wanted somebody from

516
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 3: the outside who understood war and maybe someone who didn't

517
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 3: necessarily care about relationships. But the last thing I will

518
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 3: say is this. You know, Gene went through three strikes,

519
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 3: you know, two as a player and one as the

520
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: executive director. And I can I can't from an empathetic standpoint,

521
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 3: I can't sit here and second guess a guy who

522
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 3: went through three strikes where the players voted to go

523
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: on strike, only for those players to then cross the

524
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: picket line and have that strike fail, and then the

525
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: kicker he has to pick up the phone and call

526
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 3: Paul Taglibu and beg to come back to work.

527
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, after after Joe Montana like basically pulled the rug

528
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: out from under it.

529
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: And so if you're the ex I mean, if you're

530
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 3: the executive director of.

531
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: We're going back, this is eighty seven, correct, this is

532
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: eighty Yeah, this is eighty one, except back more eighty two,

533
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 1: eighty seven, ninety one, eighty two, right, eighty two, eighty seven,

534
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: ninety one. Right. Those scabs were in eighty seven eighty

535
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: two strikes shortened season.

536
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 3: Correct, So you know from a from where Jane sat

537
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: and I think that he was both a legend of

538
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 3: a man in reality in all ways, this might be

539
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: a person who understood the players better than the players

540
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: understood themselves. Yeah, and real that his only path was

541
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: incremental wins.

542
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: Yep.

543
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 3: And I guess the last thing I would say is

544
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 3: I came into the job with you know, a different

545
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 3: set of I sound like a Liam Neilson movie, with

546
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 3: a different set of skills.

547
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, you're a litigator, you're are you take

548
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: on big corporations, but you're also a big law firm

549
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, right, Like that's a it's interest a. Yeah,

550
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: it's a different skill set. I'm curious. The longer you went,

551
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: the more did your admiration grow for Upshaw?

552
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

553
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

554
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: I think that Gene. I think that Gene was one

555
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 3: of the best labor leaders in history. I think that

556
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 3: when you look at the twenty years of litigation from

557
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one to nineteen ninety three to get free agency,

558
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 3: I mean I did fifteen years. It felt like five

559
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: hundred years. But you know, for a for a And also,

560
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: I guess I would say this. I came into the

561
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 3: job in two thousand and nine, Jane played under a

562
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 3: regime of no free agency. And we think about those

563
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: Raiders dynasties. We think about the Steelers dynasty, we think

564
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 3: about the Dallas Cowboy dynasty. I mean, Chuck, Remember those

565
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: teams were dynasties because nobody could leave. Yeah, I mean

566
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 3: so at the end of the day, I look at

567
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: a guy who was stuck in a system that was

568
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 3: I can argue, far more of a plantation system than

569
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: it is now, and a person who was economically stuck

570
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 3: in a system that hamstrung the union in ways that

571
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine. And we're also talking about a guy

572
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 3: who went through the Quarterbacks club controversy. If you remember

573
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 3: when the National Football League went around the country and

574
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 3: actually gave quarterbacks money to pull themselves out of the

575
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 3: group licensing right pull the union. So you know, I

576
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 3: had a tough run.

577
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, he dealt with a lot, right

578
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: he was build. I want you to tell the story

579
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: because this was shocking to me of how the NFL

580
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: tried to stop your hiring and by essentially hiring the

581
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: law firm you were still working at at the time

582
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: for other work. Because it's Tommy Box that you were.

583
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: A legendary Washington guy. Tommy Boggs, the son of Hail Bogs.

584
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: Uh.

585
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: This is Kokie Roberts, brother the late Cookie Roberts. You had.

586
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: Her mother served in Congress after Hallbogs's plane crashed in Alaska.

587
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: Her mother was the ambassador of the Vatican. Anyway, a

588
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: legendary family of sort of Washington power brokers. First of all,

589
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: I didn't know the story about the invention that basically

590
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: Hail Bogs agreeing to the AFL NFL merger allowed the

591
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: New Orleans Saints to be born. That that's like like

592
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,919
Speaker 1: a good congressman he had, he used he did old

593
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: fashioned horse trading, which is, you want my support from this,

594
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: go put a team in New Orleans.

595
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 3: Look on percent and and you know Tom as The

596
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 3: only thing I can add to that is, you know,

597
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 3: by far, tom was probably the most powerful democratic lobbyist

598
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 3: to ever walk the face of the planet.

599
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: You know, for a period of time, no doubt, eighties

600
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: and nineties he was the guy.

601
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 3: Oh so I you know, I'm it finally becomes public

602
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 3: that I'm a candidate for job. I come into the

603
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 3: office and everybody knows that that Tom smoked cigars and

604
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 3: drank scotch uh and that was before nine thirty in

605
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: the morning, and he knocked.

606
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: His secretary of champions as they say, breakfast of champions. Yeah,

607
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: I get a knock on my door. His assistant comes by.

608
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: Tom wants to see you right away, and of course

609
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: you know that that is just not good news. Not

610
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: good news.

611
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: Attends clearly nobody called him and is pissed off about

612
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: something that you're about to find out who it is

613
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: you want to get back.

614
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: I want to get Tom around eleven thirty. You don't

615
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 3: want nine thirty, ten o'clock in the morning.

616
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: Tom.

617
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 3: So I walk into his office, sit down. There's a

618
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: you know, fog of cigar smoke, and he says, hey,

619
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 3: you know, you have to realize that we got a

620
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 3: call last night from the NFL and they want they

621
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 3: want Paton Boggs to be the chief lobbyist for the NFL.

622
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 3: And immediately it made sense to me that, by the way,

623
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 3: a clever move.

624
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: I just got to say, I'm weirdly impressed.

625
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 3: I mean, we we give credit to where credit is due,

626
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 3: it's a brilliant move because why it's.

627
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: A brilliant move. Yeah, like it.

628
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 3: It gets me in a trick bag. One, I haven't

629
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 3: been elected to the job yet, so the the elections

630
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 3: in whatever it is in March. I think this was

631
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: maybe early maybe early to mid January. So for the

632
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 3: lead to make it a pitch to hire Patent Bogs,

633
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: it puts me in a trick bag because either I

634
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 3: have to step down from the firm, in which case

635
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 3: I don't have a job because hopefully I'm getting elected

636
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: in March, but who knows. If pattent Bugs keeps the

637
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 3: NFL as a client and I stay, I have to

638
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 3: pull myself out of running for the job. So it

639
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 3: is literally the almost the Sophie's choice of what do

640
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 3: you do? And for a lobbying firm, the size of

641
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 3: Patent Bogs literally the crown jewel is representing the NFL.

642
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 3: I mean, they're probably one of the top ten to

643
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 3: fifteen clients in the world to represent. So I sit there,

644
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 3: you know, I basically swallow, you know, whatever is in

645
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: my mouth, and I'm trying to remain as calm as

646
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: possible while telling.

647
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 1: By the way, Tommy Box close friends with Tom Bentz

648
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: and the owner of the Saints grew up together, right,

649
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: They're very tied in, so these these are personal relationships

650
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: for him. Anyway, keep going.

651
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I never went to the hunting lodge

652
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 3: with Tom because frankly, I never thought I would make

653
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 3: it back. But but the flip side is, you know

654
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 3: Tom Benson is his childhood friend and he and he says,

655
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 3: Tom called me about this offer in d It's a

656
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 3: great offer for the firm. So I try not to

657
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 3: look absolutely terrified, but of course terrified. And so I

658
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 3: turned to Tom and I said, hey, look, I understand

659
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 3: this is an important client for the firm. I'll step

660
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: down immediately. Tom chomps and the cigar looks at me,

661
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: and he says, I know, it's a family show. He says, well,

662
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: you know I told Tom to go f himself.

663
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: There you go. He knew exactly what he I mean.

664
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: If anybody knows hardball tactics, it's Tommy Box.

665
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 3: I couldn't. First of all, I wouldn't have been qualified

666
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 3: for the job without working for Tom Boggs, and I

667
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: certainly wouldn't have been able to steer my way through

668
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 3: the mine fields of Washington in the National Football League

669
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: without Tom's guidance, brilliant a you got, but.

670
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: It doesn't work. You get, you get Tom's backing on

671
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: all of this, and you I imagine you being accepted.

672
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: On one hand, the players voted for you because they

673
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: under they accepted the premise that you were. This was

674
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: going to be a war and you needed somebody. Maybe

675
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, you might not understand how they live their lives,

676
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: but they that you understood how a boardroom were. But

677
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: how hard was it to connect with the players?

678
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 3: You know, honestly, Tom, not not really. It just wasn't

679
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 3: you know, Chuck, It just wasn't hard. First of all,

680
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 3: I only have you know, I think I only have

681
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 3: one stick, right, you know, whether I'm standing up in

682
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 3: front of a jury or or standing up in a boardroom,

683
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: I try to make sure that no one in the

684
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 3: room knows more about the facts or the history, or

685
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 3: the law or the as Tom would say, the you

686
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 3: know how Washington works. I tried to make sure that

687
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 3: no one understood that better than me, Chuck, And that

688
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: was my job to understand it, nobody better than me.

689
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 3: And second, I'm going to stand in front of you

690
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: and tell the truth and I think that the players

691
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 3: back then were they didn't understand at first the significance

692
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 3: of the National Football League pulling out of the collective

693
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: bargaining agreement. They really didn't appreciate the significance of the

694
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 3: NFL trying to get the judge, the federal judge who

695
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 3: had overseen the collective bargaining agreement for up until that point,

696
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 3: almost twenty twenty five, maybe thirty years. But you and

697
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: I know, well up until present company, you and I

698
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 3: both know that anytime someone makes a play to try

699
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: to remove a federal judge, it is literally the last

700
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 3: card in the deck. And at the end, when I

701
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 3: told the players, hey, look at this is just what

702
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 3: I see them doing. We either decide that we're going

703
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 3: to be in for a war or we're not. And again,

704
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: I honestly believe that it had less to do with

705
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: me and more to do with the quality of the

706
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,959
Speaker 3: people that I was doing the job with. I mean,

707
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: you know, when you're standing up in front of the

708
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,959
Speaker 3: New Orleans Saints and Drew Brees says, this is our guy,

709
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 3: or you're in you know, Boston, New England, and Mike

710
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 3: Vrabel and Tom Brady, you're saying this is our guy.

711
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 3: It means a lot. I'm not sure they particularly loved

712
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 3: d Smith. I think that they did love the fact

713
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 3: that all I did was try to go Tintoe's to

714
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 3: the line, tell them the truth and if a war

715
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 3: was gonna be the only thing that we had, make

716
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 3: the other side pack a lunch.

717
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: So I was thinking about this a couple of weeks ago.

718
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 1: I knew I was gonna be interviewing you, and Rob

719
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: Manfred was talking was going meeting with various He's been

720
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: meeting with players. Yeah, because they have their own what's

721
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: going to be Look there, it's coming, it's coming, and

722
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: they have you know, Baseball's problem is they actually don't

723
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: have the socialism of the NFL. Right, they don't share

724
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: revenue in the same way the NFL is is one

725
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: of the wealthiest socialist organizations we have in the United States.

726
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: So number number one, they're number one. So but when

727
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: Bryce Harper basically was willing to tell Rob Manfred to

728
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: f off right, I was thinking, would Patrick Mahomes do that?

729
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: You know what?

730
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 3: I think he would? You know what?

731
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

732
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: I think so, I mean there was a moment, you know,

733
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 3: there's so much that's on the cutting room floor of

734
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 3: Turf Wars. But in the ramp up to twenty eleven,

735
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 3: you know, I was hitting every team twice during that year,

736
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 3: talking to players about the upcoming lockout. It didn't end

737
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: up in the book, but Roger did his own road tour,

738
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 3: and I think he only made it to Team six

739
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: because I vividly remember him going to Cleveland and running

740
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 3: into I think Joe Thomas uh, and the meeting went south.

741
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: And then I remember that he went to Indianapolis because

742
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 3: for some reason he thought that that might be a

743
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 3: safe place for him to do a meeting, given you know,

744
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 3: Peyton Manning is a is a is a country gentleman, right.

745
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: Right, He's going to make everybody feel good, right.

746
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 3: He ran into Indianapolis, and I'll never forget Jeff Saturday

747
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 3: picking up the phone, uh and calling me on my

748
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 3: cell phone, you know, kept calling, kept calling, kept calling,

749
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 3: and I pick up the phone and he goes d man.

750
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 3: I had to get up and walk Roger out of

751
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 3: the room. The whole thing went south. So to your point,

752
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 3: do I think players could do? I think that guys

753
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 3: like Patrick Mahomes could. The proof in the pudding is

754
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 3: whether they actually will and I think that's one thing

755
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 3: that I have always admired, you know, Tony Clark, who's

756
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 3: a good friend of mine. I got to spend time

757
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 3: with Marvin Miller, who I have to credit with being

758
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 3: the guy that got my head screwed on straight so quickly. Marvin,

759
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 3: I mean happy to tell them explain.

760
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just gonna say, explain that. Were you

761
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: ready to go in? Guns a blazing?

762
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 3: And yeah, well, Marvin. You know, shortly after two thousand

763
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 3: and nine, I called over to the former executive director

764
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 3: of the MLB Players Association, just a wonderful man named

765
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 3: Mike Wiener, who unfortunately passed away, and I asked, Mike,

766
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 3: is there any way that he could push me in

767
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: touch with Marvin Miller. And Marvin had had recently lost

768
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 3: his wife. Took the train to New York. The car

769
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 3: drops me off in front of his apartment. I have

770
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: his book, you know, that's just torn up, and I've

771
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 3: read it so many times and I've got little yellow

772
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 3: tabs in it because I just want to ask him

773
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 3: so many questions. Walked in and if you remember Marvin,

774
00:48:55,520 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: Marvin was a really slight man, not you know, so

775
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 3: we walk in, you know, he shuts the door. He

776
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 3: asked me to you know what, I like to have

777
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 3: some tea. I cannot stand tea.

778
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: I just you like you're a coffee guy. I could

779
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 1: feel it, your red.

780
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 3: Book coffee guy. You put sugar in it and then

781
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 3: you purt and I said, sure, I had some tea.

782
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 3: He sat down. He sits down on the sofa. I

783
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 3: sit down in the chair. I took the book next

784
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: to the chair. And the first thing he says to

785
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 3: me is, why on God's earth did you take this job?

786
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 3: This might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen anybody do.

787
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were going to be US attorney in d C.

788
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that's a whole different career path

789
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 1: that you know, right. I'm sure that's what he's thinking.

790
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: You're you're walking.

791
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 3: Away from that.

792
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: You're potentially a future attorney general. You're you know what

793
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: are you doing?

794
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: Right?

795
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 3: He lit into me for about fifteen minutes. It's a

796
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 3: union with failed strikes. You think that you're going to

797
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 3: be able to talk to the owners as businessmen, They

798
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 3: will never respect you for a bunch of reasons. And

799
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 3: I don't care about your law background. They don't care

800
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 3: about your log background. They're going to eat you alive.

801
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 3: This thing went on for fifteen twenty minutes. I asked

802
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: him a couple of questions about if you were me,

803
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 3: what would you think about, and he said I would

804
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: think about finding another job and yes, And then it

805
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 3: was so brutal that at the end I just simply said, hey,

806
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 3: mister Miller, you know, thank you, you know for your time,

807
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 3: and I picked up the book. I wanted him to

808
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,439
Speaker 3: sign it. I was afraid to ask wow and walk

809
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 3: out the door. And I got in the car. I

810
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: called Mike Wiener back and I said I had my

811
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 3: meeting with Marvin and literally, you know, he chuckles and said,

812
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 3: how did it go? I I don't think it went well.

813
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 3: And two days later I got a call back from

814
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 3: from Marvin and he said, anytime you want to meet,

815
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 3: I'm willing to meet. And so I met with Marvin

816
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 3: for a another eight to ten times before he died. And

817
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 3: he was the one that got my head literally squared

818
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 3: on straight that these people that you were going to

819
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 3: deal with are some of the worst people you will

820
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 3: ever meet in your life. They're petty, they're small, they

821
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,439
Speaker 3: fight with each with each other, oh right, they care

822
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 3: more about control. And he taught me that at the

823
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 3: end of the day, while money is always important to them,

824
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 3: control is more important than money. And he said, if

825
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 3: you are up for it, wage war.

826
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: If money was the only thing that motivated them, they

827
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't buy an NFL team. It's actually not the best investment.

828
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: It's a good nothing wrong with it. But you know,

829
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: Bill Simmons likes to say this. He says, these rich

830
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: guys they buy teams so people know who their name is.

831
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 3: It's a toy.

832
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they buy a like who would Robert Kraft be

833
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: if he didn't known the Patriots? Just some rich guy

834
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: that you don't know the name some company you know,

835
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: or Arthur Blank. You know, if you if you study

836
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 1: the founding of Home Depot, maybe you'd know the name.

837
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: But if you own you know who the hell's Jerry Jones? Right?

838
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: Do you know any other oil and gas guys? Right?

839
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: And you know? But once you buy a team, you

840
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 1: become famous.

841
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 3: And the flip side of it is they love the

842
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 3: fact that it's a country club that even the richest

843
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 3: person in the world can't get into.

844
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: There's only thirty one. There's only thirty one trophies. You

845
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,959
Speaker 1: can buy, there's only thirty one entries. Maybe someday they'll

846
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: expand another two, you know, but you know the membership

847
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: committee hasn't. Yeah, you have to be asked, right, Yeah,

848
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 1: you have to be asked.

849
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 3: And literally, these aren't.

850
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: These aren't.

851
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 3: It's not simply a I have a ton of money,

852
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 3: I can afford a team. And to your point, you know,

853
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 3: until recently that they decided to change the model in

854
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:58,919
Speaker 3: order to allow private equi to come in.

855
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: Because human beings can't afford this on their own these days.

856
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 3: But anyway, and these teams don't sell, right, I mean,

857
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 3: an NFL team or a professional team franchise only comes

858
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 3: up for sell what every ten years, every eight you know.

859
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: So for them, here they are, they are now in

860
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 3: the country club. They own this large, mega, multi billion

861
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 3: dollar company that none of them want to sell because

862
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 3: the day that they do, no one cares who they are.

863
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 3: So the way that they can now incrementally make gobs

864
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 3: of money, even more gobs of money, because we both

865
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 3: know no amount of money is enough, is to bring

866
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 3: in private equity so that they can get three or

867
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 3: four iterations of sales without ever having to sell the corpus.

868
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: Right, they're trying to pull the equity out of it

869
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: so they make money without sell it. It's let me

870
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: ask this of Mark Cuban saying this when he first

871
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: got into the NBA, that there was sort of a

872
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: there was some generational differences. Younger owners were a little

873
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: bit different than the older owners. There aren't a lot

874
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: of the only time you get young owners in the

875
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: NFL is when the old owner dies and you get

876
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 1: a son or a daughter. And yet that does seem

877
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: to at least and can improve things slightly, but put

878
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: the owners in some various groups. For me, who are

879
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: the most pragmatic realistic owners to deal with?

880
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 3: I mean from a pragmatism standpoint, you know, by far

881
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 3: Robert Craft. You know, Robert is a very very tough

882
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 3: guy to negotiate with.

883
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: Politically savvy, he figures out like you know, he oh,

884
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 1: you're going to hit him for this? Well he then

885
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: suddenly he does something over here, and you're like, oh,

886
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: I know, he's very he's very savvy about his own

887
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: public image.

888
00:54:54,880 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 3: I learned as much. I learned as much from Robert.

889
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 2: Uh.

890
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 3: The only other person I learned more from was Tombox.

891
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: You know, Robert put Craft in a And how's your

892
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: personal relationship? Is it pretty good? It's okay, I mean

893
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: every now, it's only right.

894
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 3: You guys so much. And and look, you know, I

895
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: I think that he and I definitely developed a special

896
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 3: relationship during my time at the NFL PA. There were

897
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 3: things that, frankly, he did that I'm sure he would

898
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 3: chalk up to business.

899
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: That made you and him were on the same side

900
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: during the flate Gate so it a weird way. Did

901
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 1: that help your relationship? Well, we were.

902
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 3: Up until the end and we weren't on opposite sides.

903
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 3: But you know, for the people listening at home, you know,

904
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 3: Craft had originally decided that he was going to sue

905
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 3: the league over their their ham fisted management of the

906
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 3: flate gate, but at the end of the day, Robert

907
00:55:54,880 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 3: dropped that lawsuit. And so you know, I guess there

908
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 3: were things certainly that he did and he would chalk

909
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 3: it up to its business and that was one of them.

910
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 3: And did it upset me? Yes? Did it ruin our friendship? No,

911
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's some things that I've done that I

912
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 3: chalked up to business, and he would consider that to

913
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 3: be something that that wasn't affront to him. It wasn't

914
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 3: meant that way. But no one taught me that this

915
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 3: was more, that this was such a complicated and he

916
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 3: has he has, He had a line that I never

917
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 3: forgot d This is not a straight line business. And

918
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 3: so this idea that somehow you're going to walk in

919
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: and you're gonna say, Okay, there's money here, money here,

920
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 3: money here, interest here, interest here, interest here, and there's

921
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 3: a straight line that runs between all of them and

922
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 3: the National Football League, it does not. I mean that

923
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 3: tension between Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft is a real tension.

924
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 3: You asked about the categories, the tension between what, at

925
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 3: least a while ago, we would consider to be younger owners,

926
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 3: and back then Dan Snyder at one time was a

927
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 3: younger owner, believe it or not, Jerry Jones at one

928
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 3: time was a younger owner.

929
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: David Tepper would be the young owner today is that.

930
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 3: He would and and there is a tension between those

931
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 3: owners and and what we would call the the generational

932
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 3: Rooney's Mara's Hunts of the world. Look, I remember vividly,

933
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 3: you know, during during the ramp up to the lockout,

934
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 3: I went down to see Jerry, who is tough. Tough

935
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 3: to say the least. I think Jerry is brilliant. He'll

936
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 3: be the first person to tell you that as well.

937
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 3: But he is. He's really smart. He he knows how

938
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 3: to to generate revenue as players representing the players. We

939
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 3: loved that. He has one other redeeming quality. He is funny.

940
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 3: He's hysterical. He does make me laugh. I don't understand

941
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 3: the jokes, but I love it. But the one thing

942
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 3: that that I will tell you that created tension very

943
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 3: early and in his sort of ascension as a powerful leader,

944
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 3: he hated the fact that there were so many owners

945
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 3: who he believed were quote unquote freeloaders.

946
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: People know you you put him in there in the book,

947
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: and he's right, like Mike Crown, I mean, you know,

948
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: and the Davises they've always been or look at Alex Spanos,

949
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: Ralph Wilson, I I get exactly. And you know this

950
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: is this is a problem baseball has. They have. They

951
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: have just some terrible owners and that don't know what

952
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: they're doing.

953
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 3: It was. It was such a point of contention for

954
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 3: Jerry that literally before we were locked out, I authorized

955
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 3: a grievance to be filed against the other owners because

956
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 3: many of the owners had not adhered to the supplemental

957
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 3: revenue sharing provision under their own contract. So let's put

958
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 3: this perspective. I used our money to sue owners who

959
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 3: weren't sharing money with other owners. Now people would say

960
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 3: that that's that's crazy, but you know, Tom Boggs would

961
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 3: tell you that's smart.

962
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: No, you're trying to divide and conquer. Remind us. Look,

963
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: you know I always said I knew Schneider was finally cooked.

964
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: When somebody noted he was withholding a visiting ticket revenue

965
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: from the other owners, I'm like, oh, we go where

966
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: that's the more that's the first rule of fight club, right,

967
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: that right? Do not you know? And that was like

968
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: literally that report leaks and Snyder's gone in like a month. Well,

969
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: I mean, if.

970
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 3: You remember after the after the cheerleaders stuff.

971
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: After all that didn't get it gone right, none of

972
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: that other stuff taking money away from Jerry Jones and

973
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: those guys. Here we go third.

974
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 3: Rail, third rail, and look, this is a group of

975
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 3: people that the best description or the way that I

976
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 3: finally got my head around thinking about it was it

977
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 3: is a feudal kingdom, a complete feudal kingdom and Prince

978
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 3: Valiant is Roger. His job is to try to keep

979
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 3: them together to certainly ride out and fight their battles.

980
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 3: But these are feudal lords who treat their teams as

981
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 3: city states.

982
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: You know. I was thinking about Roger versus Roselle. Yeah,

983
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: and I think that one disadvantage Roger has that Roselle.

984
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: The advantage Roselle had is Roselle made the owners rich.

985
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: The owners made Roger rich, and meaning like, you know,

986
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: the structure was already in place. Roselle took, you know,

987
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: was able to create, you know, see a vision and say, hey, guys,

988
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: working this together, we're going to become so much bigger.

989
01:00:55,320 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: And so it allowed him to have the real influence.

990
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: And I do think when you negotiated with Roselle, he

991
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: would then force the owners to accept the agreement. I

992
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: don't I feel like he was not as controlled by

993
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: the owners. Fast forward to today. I mean, this is known

994
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: and Roger fascinates me because I see the son of

995
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: a senator who confronted power, and I see a guy

996
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: who sort of doesn't confront power. Right, I find it interesting,

997
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: But then again, what's the lesson fifteen year old Roger

998
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: Goodell saw he saw that his father stood up to

999
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: the man, and the man defeated him. And I've always

1000
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: wondered what impact did that have on him? But in

1001
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: either direction, is Roger simply weaker because the owners have

1002
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: more leverage over him than say Roselle, who truly probably

1003
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: had more leverage over the owners.

1004
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think I think all three were different.

1005
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 3: I think I think Tagliaboo was in the middle between,

1006
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 3: you know, Roselle and Roger.

1007
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: I've been a gentleman. I've met with him a few times,

1008
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: and he's such a gentleman.

1009
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 3: Always, always a gentleman. Now that said, you know, the

1010
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 3: guy who was behind the Quarterbacks club of paying players.

1011
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: To the out of the Yeah, just business.

1012
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 3: But I guess you know, you know, and I talk

1013
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 3: about it in Turf Wars because at a time when

1014
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out Roger, that that that

1015
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 3: history of his dad taking over Bobby Kennedy c and

1016
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 3: and going to the library and reading his father's.

1017
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 1: Papers, confronting Nixon, standing up, uh, you know, against the

1018
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: Vietnam War. I mean, these were these were bold moves.

1019
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 3: Oh and and at a tough time, you know. And

1020
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 3: and the book is around here, you know, somewhere. The

1021
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 3: only book that he wrote was was Political Prisoners in America.

1022
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 3: I mean, think about that, you know, with the forward

1023
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 3: being to my friend Richard Nixon, you know who ultimately

1024
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 3: you know, politically cuts his throat, right, I think, you know,

1025
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 3: I think Roger I wanted to write a book obviously

1026
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 3: that was that was fair. I think at the end

1027
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 3: of the day, Roger ended up better in the book

1028
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 3: than I ever thought he would. I think that he

1029
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 3: has a very tough job. But I think that there

1030
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 3: was this, lack of a better word, I think that

1031
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 3: there was this arc that started with Roselle, that went

1032
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:28,439
Speaker 3: through Tagliaboo, and ultimately ended up with with Roger, where

1033
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 3: the owners decided that they wanted to control the levers

1034
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 3: of the league a little bit more than the commissioner.

1035
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 3: Now that said, I mean, I would argue that between

1036
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 3: Roselle Tagliaboo, I would like I'd argue that rose that

1037
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 3: that Roger has made them far richer than either of

1038
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 3: those two because he is talented when it comes to

1039
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 3: bringing out television revenue and structuring the game in which

1040
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 3: you know, these networks pay need more money for the

1041
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 3: NFL than they make on the commercials that show the game. Yeah,

1042
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 3: and that that's a skill. And at the end of

1043
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 3: the day, I mean, let's be blunt. Would Mike Brown

1044
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 3: be a multi billionaire without Roger? No? No, no, We're

1045
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 3: left to his own devices.

1046
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 2: No.

1047
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 3: So I look at it this way. At the end

1048
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 3: of the year, the owners pay Roger about two point

1049
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 3: one million dollars a year to be billionaires. It's not

1050
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 3: a bad return on your investment.

1051
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 1: No, And he takes all the others. I mean, ask this,

1052
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: if there were thirty two green Bay Packers community owned franchises,

1053
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: what would the job be?

1054
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 3: Like I say, if there were thirty two green Bay Packers,

1055
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 3: those cats are going both ways on the field.

1056
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, there were thirty two ownership structures. Because

1057
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 1: I've always said this, I feel like sports owners. Yeah,

1058
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: they don't. They don't own a thing. They're custodians. The

1059
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: only reason these teams have value is because the fans

1060
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: give them value.

1061
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 3: Right. So it's a weird.

1062
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 1: Thing, right, It's not like I'm buying business, which that

1063
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: makes this widget over here and all this stuff. And

1064
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: so the Packers ownership structure, to me, is actually a

1065
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 1: correct way to do it. The community should own it,

1066
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: and there should be a board and all of those things.

1067
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: If that is how more NFL teams were structured, I

1068
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: think the New Orleans Saints may be headed in that

1069
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: direction and this strange way that they're done. You told

1070
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 1: me the Chicago Bears went that route. It would completely

1071
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: shock me considering that this is that's a team that's

1072
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: never been sold, right, It's still the same family, own business. Right,

1073
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: It would make a lot of sense to me. What

1074
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 1: would that look like and what would the league look like?

1075
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: Under that? Would that would be a more powerful commissioner?

1076
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 2: Would to that?

1077
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 3: I think it would be a more powerful commissioner. I

1078
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 3: also think it would be you know, spitballing off the top.

1079
01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 3: I think that it would be a more powerful union

1080
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 3: because you would have thirty two teams that are structured

1081
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 3: more like a corporation with a public board and ten

1082
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 3: k's and ten ques and annual reports.

1083
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: And the only reason you guys know half the stuff

1084
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: you know about the league is because the Green Bay

1085
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: Packers has to report it publicly.

1086
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 3: You do, and we extrapolate, and so look, I think

1087
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 3: that would be a completely different animal. Do I think

1088
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 3: it'll ever happen? No, I think that these have become

1089
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 3: such profitable centers that you can, to your point earlier,

1090
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 3: you have the ability to socialize your cost and privatize

1091
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 3: your wealth. And I don't know of any other institutions

1092
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 3: in America where a you know, like Loew's and Home Depot,

1093
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 3: the two largest hardware stores in the country, are allowed

1094
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:59,959
Speaker 3: to merge. They are allowed to basically eliminate every threat

1095
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 3: of competition that has ever existed to the NFL has

1096
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 3: been eliminated brutally because nobody else has a anti trust exemption.

1097
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 3: No one else is covered by the Sports Broadcasting Act, right,

1098
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 3: which allows those entities to negotiate unitary television deals, which

1099
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 3: really kind of separates it from baseball as well. Right.

1100
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 3: And then at the end, you know, up until recently,

1101
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 3: the NFL Head office was a five oh one c

1102
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 3: six non profit. So, you know, I start off with

1103
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 3: the book with this, you know, rhetorical question. If you

1104
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 3: and I, okay, you and I are different. If the

1105
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 3: average person was blessed with a business that generated twenty

1106
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 3: five billion dollars a year and you answered to no one,

1107
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 3: what would you do? And I think these people do it.

1108
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 3: I think at the end of the day they create

1109
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 3: a system where there is no I mean, I think

1110
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 3: the best example that I can come up with is,

1111
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 3: you know, I wrote an article for Yale about the

1112
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 3: Rooney rule a few years ago because it is basically

1113
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 3: a joke. You know, on any level, it's a joke.

1114
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 3: It's the only rule that the National Football League has

1115
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 3: ever placed upon itself that it doesn't follow.

1116
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they have to follow the running rule unless

1117
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: they have an exception to the running rule, right and

1118
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: we all know they break the rules, right with Sean Paige.

1119
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean, the most recent example, I think is Sean

1120
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: Payton in Denver, right yeah, where the owner already knew

1121
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 1: they were going to hire, and they're like, well, okay,

1122
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 1: how do we go around this? How do we get

1123
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 1: around this one?

1124
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 3: So you have this organization that answers answers to no one.

1125
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 3: And nonetheless, when you look at the Rooney rule, you

1126
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 3: can make a prima facia case that there is discrimination

1127
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 3: going on in the National Football League. Yet you and

1128
01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:00,879
Speaker 3: I know that not one attorney general has ever applied

1129
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 3: their own anti discrimination laws against the team that resides

1130
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,639
Speaker 3: in their state. So these are a group of people

1131
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 3: who have become extremely comfortable with being above the law.

1132
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 1: Are they too popular? Because you know, you and I

1133
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 1: both know. Do I think Attorney's General would go after

1134
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 1: the NBA if there was a rule like this being

1135
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: oh well mismanaged. Good question, answers, Yes, Yeah, any other

1136
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 1: sport like football right now is politically untouchable because it's

1137
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 1: so popular.

1138
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 3: Well, it's so untouchable and it's so popular that, you know,

1139
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 3: taxpayers in upstate New York, we're paying more for an

1140
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 3: owner's stadium than they were supplying to their local public schools.

1141
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's crazy, right.

1142
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: So the NFL's nonprofit status right, and nonprofit which they

1143
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: gave up, by the way, so it's completely given up.

1144
01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 1: So does that mean how much revenue were they hiding?

1145
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 3: Oh? You know, who knows because the reason they gave

1146
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 3: it up is for years they weren't complying with the

1147
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 3: L and two's and L and thirties that you have

1148
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:13,240
Speaker 3: to file for a non non public i'm sorry, for

1149
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 3: a nonprofit organization. So you know, it could be literally,

1150
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:18,880
Speaker 3: you know, Chuck, it could have been hundreds of millions

1151
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 3: of dollars because if you're pushing money into the league

1152
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 3: office and paying out expenses. You're you're just making the

1153
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:35,679
Speaker 3: teams appear to have spent more so that their tax

1154
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 3: burden is lower. So you know, who knows. I mean,

1155
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 3: I think the real reason that they gave up the

1156
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 3: nonprofit status is a I think they really got tired

1157
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 3: of me going around the country and saying that they

1158
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 3: were a nonprofit. I think that that absolutely just made

1159
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:54,559
Speaker 3: them lose theirs. But at the same time, you know

1160
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 3: what you have to do if you're a nonprofit. You

1161
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 3: have to publicize the earnings and the salary and the

1162
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 3: compensation of not only the commissioner but everybody else who works.

1163
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 1: For the League Office, and they got tired of their income.

1164
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 3: I'll give you one more at least, going back to

1165
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 3: some of the earlier days that preceded me, I think

1166
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 3: it was a It might have been a grievance that

1167
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 3: we had filed, you know, I can't quite remember whether

1168
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:25,559
Speaker 3: it was somebody who told me or we ended up

1169
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 3: reading about it somewhere, but there were people in the

1170
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 3: League Office who were getting warrants for I think it

1171
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 3: was rebox stock, so things that were connected to the

1172
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,600
Speaker 3: deals that they were doing. So you know, if you

1173
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 3: do that, you have to report that as well, and

1174
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 3: what went out with the nonprofit status was any obligation

1175
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 3: of anybody in the league office reporting salary or other compensation.

1176
01:11:53,960 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: Alternative compensation like stock options and things like that. So

1177
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 1: one of the hall one of the explanations that's always

1178
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 1: been given over the years as to why the NFL

1179
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,919
Speaker 1: players are not don't you know, have the guaranteed contracts,

1180
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 1: and why NFL players have sort of quote unquote folded

1181
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: sooner than the baseball players did, or is the lifespan

1182
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 1: of an NFL player earning potential is so short that

1183
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 1: you know, that player that's only going to be making

1184
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 1: money for you know, does it can't afford to lose

1185
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 1: a year of you know you that's a third of

1186
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: their profess for some of them, that's a third of

1187
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 1: their professional career suddenly out the window. And it's to

1188
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: me been one of the explanations. And but is that

1189
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 1: is that the reason? I mean, is it that just

1190
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:53,719
Speaker 1: team is too big? What's your sense?

1191
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 3: I think the reason is I think looking back now,

1192
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 3: I think psychologically, I don't know of another sport that

1193
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:07,639
Speaker 3: is psychologically more militaristic than the National Football League.

1194
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 1: It's almost like it's your duty to accept the premise,

1195
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:14,519
Speaker 1: you know, like, come on, come on, private grunt, you know,

1196
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:16,240
Speaker 1: offensive lineman grunt.

1197
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 3: You know, it's just it's just I find it different.

1198
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 3: So I'm not saying that's the you know, that's the

1199
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:23,640
Speaker 3: only reason. It's a collection of reasons.

1200
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: But it's a less into It's more it's a less

1201
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: individualistic sport of us for sure, right, both baseball. And

1202
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 1: it's why I love football. I think it teaches teamwork.

1203
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 1: I think it's such an essential tool for teenagers to

1204
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 1: learn that, hey, it takes eleven people rowing in the

1205
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 1: same direction to succeed at something well.

1206
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 3: And that's why I love football. I think that it's that.

1207
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:49,520
Speaker 3: I think it's the sort of quasi militaristic spirit about it.

1208
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,640
Speaker 3: I think that I think history has a lot to

1209
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 3: do with it. You you had failed strikes in the eighties,

1210
01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:00,240
Speaker 3: in the in the early nineties, and and look, you know,

1211
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 3: my job is to try to build a level of

1212
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 3: solidarity and willingness to be a murder and if I

1213
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 3: couldn't do that, that's a failure on my part. So

1214
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 3: I think it's a combination of things that that makes

1215
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 3: it tough. But you know, the thing that I loved

1216
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:24,280
Speaker 3: during my time there. I can think of two times

1217
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:29,679
Speaker 3: when the players came together. And first was, as you remember,

1218
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 3: when the President gave that speech in Huntsville, Alabama that

1219
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 3: I'm sure he didn't understand it that he basically called

1220
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 3: every NFL player's mother a b yep. And you know,

1221
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 3: in a football culture, the other place that you love

1222
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 3: that locker room mentality is you can say a lot

1223
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 3: of things, but you go down the mother is a

1224
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 3: B word, and everybody is about to get hands them.

1225
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 3: That's just that's just my culture and that's their culture.

1226
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: Well that's the same military culture, but the other way,

1227
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: like my band of brothers, right.

1228
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 3: And what that entire weekend, including that Monday night when

1229
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 3: the Dallas Cowboys and and and Jerry Jones knelt, that

1230
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:18,480
Speaker 3: was a that was a show of solidarity.

1231
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:21,720
Speaker 1: Well that was Jerry Jones taking the temperature of his

1232
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 1: own locker room one thousand percent of either being on

1233
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 1: the train or in front.

1234
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:27,719
Speaker 3: Of the train.

1235
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 1: That's right, No, no, no, he chose.

1236
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 3: He chose on the train. And and again I give

1237
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:35,400
Speaker 3: a great deal of of of credit to the guys

1238
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 3: in his locker room because he had said if anybody kneels.

1239
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 3: You know they're going to get cut, but those guys

1240
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:44,479
Speaker 3: stood up. I mean, look, I think that what goes

1241
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:48,360
Speaker 3: on in the National Football League is a is a

1242
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 3: metaphor paradigm shift story about what American workers have to

1243
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,440
Speaker 3: do in order to make sure that they protect themselves.

1244
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 3: And and I get it. I get the idea that

1245
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 3: it's only one third of you know, you might be

1246
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 3: risking one third of your career. But look, I mean,

1247
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 3: my dad, my mother decided to risk a lot more

1248
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 3: when they were voting, when they were marching for voting rights,

1249
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 3: you know, going back to the coal miners of of

1250
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 3: of your you know, mother Jones and Rich Trunk, they

1251
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,559
Speaker 3: all risked things. You know, I went on I probably

1252
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:31,600
Speaker 3: went on one hundred and fifty pickets while I was

1253
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 3: executive director, you know, the last of which I went

1254
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 3: on a picket line in Los Angeles for a group

1255
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 3: of women who were making ice cream cakes for Colestone.

1256
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 3: And those women had been on strike for more than

1257
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:55,000
Speaker 3: a year, mostly earning a little bit more than minimum wage.

1258
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 3: And you know, if I'm standing up in front of

1259
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:01,559
Speaker 3: our guys and I'm I'm begging them or asking them

1260
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:05,640
Speaker 3: or threatening them, and sometimes to stand up for themselves.

1261
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 3: I don't have much more in me than saying, man,

1262
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 3: there's a group of women living paycheck to paycheck, willing

1263
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:13,400
Speaker 3: to go to war.

1264
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:15,599
Speaker 1: Let me get you out of here on this. And

1265
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 1: that is what's going on in college.

1266
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:18,280
Speaker 3: Yep.

1267
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:22,599
Speaker 1: Because college players right now, in this moment in time,

1268
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:29,719
Speaker 1: have more leverage than NFL players. They have more freedom

1269
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 1: of movement. Yeah, arguably, oh yeah they can. You know,

1270
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:42,120
Speaker 1: if you're well, take rock Party, rock Party has this

1271
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 1: career year in college. He could take that, go to

1272
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 1: the University of Miami and triple his salary that he

1273
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 1: was making and say at Iowa State. But in the NFL,

1274
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 1: with the rookie contract, he couldn't do that, right, he

1275
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 1: was sort of stuck within the prison. You know, you

1276
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 1: hope you sort of the agent plays the game. Do

1277
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 1: you really want to make this you know whatever. But

1278
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 1: the point is we are now going to have a

1279
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 1: new class of players that are coming into the league

1280
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:17,440
Speaker 1: who have actually had more negotiating rights for their financial

1281
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 1: future starting in high school, yeah, than the NFL players

1282
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 1: have today. I know that's going to change the complexion

1283
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: of the nflpause. I assume it's going to create I think,

1284
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 1: you know, if I'm the NFL owners, I have to

1285
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 1: figure out how to get in front of this because

1286
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:40,360
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be an entirely different relationship

1287
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 1: between players and owners five years from now as you

1288
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:47,000
Speaker 1: get this essentially as the old players cycle out in

1289
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 1: this new players cycle in. I agree, What do you think?

1290
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:52,599
Speaker 3: I mean?

1291
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 1: You know? I mean, look, I think you I both

1292
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,760
Speaker 1: assume collective bargainings coming to college sports kind of has to.

1293
01:18:56,760 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 1: I don't know how you you know how you the

1294
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 1: TV money and allah or a version of it right

1295
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 1: in some form of it. Yeah, But but that player

1296
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:10,240
Speaker 1: empowerment happening now for high schoolers, okay, negotiating their way

1297
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 1: to decide which school to be at. Right, they have

1298
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 1: more freedom than Reggie White ever had. They have more

1299
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 1: freedom than Eddie Patrick Holmes my homes has today in

1300
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 1: the NFL. That's got to change the mindset of this union,

1301
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:25,960
Speaker 1: I would hope.

1302
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 3: I guess. The one thing I would say, Chuck, is

1303
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 3: what you've described is college and high school players having

1304
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 3: more freedom. It takes direction and guidance to turn that

1305
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:48,519
Speaker 3: into empowerment. And what I worry about is, on one hand,

1306
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:51,120
Speaker 3: you are absolutely right, you know, high school players and

1307
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:56,960
Speaker 3: college players have more freedom over their indidividual year to

1308
01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 3: year contract than a drafted rookie player than in his

1309
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 3: first three years. That's just the way it is. By

1310
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:06,559
Speaker 3: the way, if the NFL players want to decide in

1311
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 3: twenty thirty to get rid of the draft, man, let's

1312
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 3: go right.

1313
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:13,759
Speaker 1: Go, so Tody Begles would never have another good player. Again,

1314
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 1: I digress, but you know.

1315
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 3: The draft has always been there. From the player side.

1316
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 3: The draft has always been there because it was there

1317
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 3: to protect players coming out of college when they didn't

1318
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 3: have anything. I think that's going to change. But the

1319
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 3: question is, while they have this level of freedom, who

1320
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 3: on the high school side and who on the college

1321
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:42,680
Speaker 3: side directs that freedom in a direction or with a

1322
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 3: focus so that it manifested itself into empowerment. And I

1323
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 3: think you are dead right about one thing. The NFL

1324
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:58,760
Speaker 3: owners fear this more than anything, and the last thing

1325
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:05,080
Speaker 3: they want is for an educated, empowered player to start

1326
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:06,759
Speaker 3: coming in and demanding things.

1327
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: Look, these high school kids are now learning about all

1328
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 1: of this in a way that ten years ago they

1329
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 1: didn't bother because there was nothing there to learn. Yet.

1330
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:19,479
Speaker 1: In fairness, like you know, they knew about the recruiting process,

1331
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 1: and they might know, Hey, if I do this, I'll

1332
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:23,599
Speaker 1: get Nike gear. And if I do this, I'll get

1333
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 1: a DTAs gear. But it was not financial and and

1334
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,120
Speaker 1: and this is where I do think, like you just said,

1335
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:33,080
Speaker 1: you're just going to have you know, there was an

1336
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 1: old clothing store called Sims, and they used to have

1337
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 1: this tagline, the educated consumer is our best customer. Right.

1338
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 1: It was such a it was such a great tagline, right,

1339
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 1: the educated consumer is our best get We're a local guys,

1340
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:50,880
Speaker 1: we get some right.

1341
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:51,919
Speaker 3: I went to Sims.

1342
01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is going to be a more educated player.

1343
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 1: And it is a nightmare I think in the for

1344
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:01,680
Speaker 1: the future NFL, I think.

1345
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 3: I think it's a more educated player, going back to

1346
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:09,120
Speaker 3: if there is focus in direction because what I do

1347
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:13,160
Speaker 3: fear a little bit is, you know, when I would

1348
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:16,759
Speaker 3: travel around to college campuses, we actually had a program

1349
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:19,160
Speaker 3: called Pipeline to the Pros or Pipeline to the Pros

1350
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 3: and and NFL PA people would go to college campuses

1351
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,440
Speaker 3: and talk to players about what it means.

1352
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:28,599
Speaker 1: To financial education. Wasn't it was basically right, a little

1353
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 1: bit of that, but you know, but chuck it was

1354
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:31,679
Speaker 1: only a day, right.

1355
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:34,639
Speaker 3: What I would love to see is in the way

1356
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:40,040
Speaker 3: that these schools are now providing, you know, hundreds of

1357
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 3: millions of dollars to the to the to these athletes.

1358
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 3: If I could waive a magic wand I would love

1359
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 3: for you know, many of the firms that I brought

1360
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 3: in to be on our financial literacy, whether it was

1361
01:22:54,840 --> 01:23:00,240
Speaker 3: Morgan Stanley or or other companies coming into to to

1362
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 3: to become financial advisors to players. I would love a

1363
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 3: world where if these schools are going to do this

1364
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 3: and be a part of the financial enrichment for for

1365
01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:15,760
Speaker 3: the players. Man, I would love a world where either

1366
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:21,680
Speaker 3: there was mandatory attendance at these financial literacy seminars or

1367
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:27,320
Speaker 3: guys and women being mandated to take classes in college

1368
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:27,559
Speaker 3: for that.

1369
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:30,920
Speaker 1: I guess I look, it's weird that I haven't asked

1370
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:33,240
Speaker 1: you about the current mess at the NFL p A

1371
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: right now. I know you're not there, so, but yeah,

1372
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,640
Speaker 1: what has that done to morale? Are are there? You

1373
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,599
Speaker 1: know who is? You know? I was pals with Eric Winston,

1374
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 1: who was your sort of player sideki. He was the

1375
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:48,880
Speaker 1: president of the Players when he was a working player.

1376
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:51,720
Speaker 1: How concerned are players? Do you think right now of

1377
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:55,120
Speaker 1: this mess of your among your successors.

1378
01:23:55,479 --> 01:24:01,160
Speaker 3: I I hope they're concerned, Okay. I hope they have

1379
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:06,920
Speaker 3: an understanding of how important this union is as literally

1380
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 3: the only barrier between you and the National Football League.

1381
01:24:12,080 --> 01:24:15,200
Speaker 3: I hope that players will take the time to to

1382
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:19,000
Speaker 3: how do I say this delicately? I hope that they

1383
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 3: take a time, and especially the player leadership, to spend

1384
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:26,920
Speaker 3: some time in sort of brutal reflection of how they.

1385
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:29,599
Speaker 1: Got here, meaning that these guys better.

1386
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:35,439
Speaker 3: Man, Well, I don'tant I think, I know you're.

1387
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 1: In a tough position. I'm not. I'm not trying. Would

1388
01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:39,599
Speaker 1: I would says today?

1389
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:44,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, what I would say is this, Man, I knew

1390
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,760
Speaker 3: when I sat in front of the players in two

1391
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 3: thousand and nine that Breeze Mawai Dawkins Saturday, the lawyers

1392
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 3: that were in the room, the former players that were

1393
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 3: in the room, I knew the moment I sat down

1394
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 3: that everybody in there understood two things. They understood the history,

1395
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 3: and they understood that the owners are not thirty one

1396
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 3: guys who are somehow going to be sweet talked by

1397
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 3: someone who talks the language of business. And I think

1398
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 3: they understood that better than anyone. And if the players

1399
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 3: want to make sure that they are well prepared for

1400
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:43,840
Speaker 3: the war that is coming their way. It is if

1401
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:45,720
Speaker 3: I were the owners of the National Football League, and

1402
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 3: I unfortunately know the way that they think. You and

1403
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:52,559
Speaker 3: I both know that there isn't a major corporation in

1404
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:56,360
Speaker 3: the country that's still paying a pension, right, I mean

1405
01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:00,640
Speaker 3: the NFL is. I think that the owners understand that

1406
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:03,640
Speaker 3: the salary cap and revenue, if it's going to be

1407
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:06,880
Speaker 3: tied to this share of revenue, you're going to be

1408
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 3: looking at a salary cap that is going to be astronomical.

1409
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:12,680
Speaker 1: They don't want to pay the NBA contracts, do they.

1410
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: They're petrified in paying ninety million dollar a year now.

1411
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:20,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so you will either interpret that as a

1412
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 3: as a as an existential threat to the way that

1413
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 3: you have done business as a player, or you'll stick

1414
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 3: your head in the sand and and and not think

1415
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:34,760
Speaker 3: that way. So, you know, I loved my time there

1416
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 3: for the most part. But this union is so critically

1417
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:43,519
Speaker 3: important to the men and the families who play this

1418
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 3: game that the leadership better have their own Marvin Miller

1419
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 3: that gets their head zoned straight. Yeah.

1420
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: Maybe in some ways this scandals a wake up call,

1421
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:56,840
Speaker 1: right you know that they were able to in some

1422
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:58,559
Speaker 1: ways you deal with a problem before it could have

1423
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,920
Speaker 1: been worse, you hope, so you hope you learned from

1424
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:04,320
Speaker 1: Right now, I could keep going, uh, talk about how

1425
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 1: do we But like I said, this book again, you

1426
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 1: want to understand the business of football. You don't have

1427
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 1: to agree with everything da Mars wrote in here, but

1428
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:18,720
Speaker 1: it really does it. This is a very opaque leap,

1429
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 1: extraordinarily opaque, and anytime you can peer inside and you

1430
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 1: help us peer inside. So it's a it was a

1431
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 1: great it was a great rate congression for those of

1432
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 1: you that are listening continuously after the Morris Smith conversation there,

1433
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:45,040
Speaker 1: Like I said, like I said at the at the

1434
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:51,640
Speaker 1: open Uh, I what I don't think we fully appreciate

1435
01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:54,120
Speaker 1: how much all of this is going to change and

1436
01:27:54,160 --> 01:27:55,800
Speaker 1: how much this is going to be a trickle up

1437
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:59,479
Speaker 1: effect as high school and college and you know, right

1438
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:01,559
Speaker 1: now it's most football that we're talking about, but this

1439
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 1: is across the board and sort of the rights of

1440
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:11,559
Speaker 1: college students as they also make money in this arena,

1441
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,680
Speaker 1: making money for their universities, et cetera. So it is

1442
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:21,840
Speaker 1: collective bargaining is coming, and it's coming all across the board.

1443
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 1: The question I have in the world of college is

1444
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,120
Speaker 1: will it be done by conference? Well, we have like

1445
01:28:26,160 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 1: the SEC Players Association the Big Ten Players Association. Since

1446
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 1: the conferences are doing it by negotiating individually that way,

1447
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,360
Speaker 1: that would be my guess of how it goes is

1448
01:28:39,360 --> 01:28:44,720
Speaker 1: that it's players Association be a conference. Of course, you

1449
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:47,000
Speaker 1: know I will go off on a rant there. I

1450
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 1: do think that the conferences have made are actually leaving

1451
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:52,599
Speaker 1: money on the table by being so focused on just

1452
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 1: maximizing their own revenue for SEC football or Big ten football,

1453
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 1: when actually if they negoti ciated collectively all of Division

1454
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:06,440
Speaker 1: I football, everybody would be making more money in this situation,

1455
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 1: and it might change the whole collective bargaining issue. I

1456
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:13,640
Speaker 1: have a feeling these university presents aren't going to be

1457
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:17,680
Speaker 1: crazy about having to deal with ten different players associations

1458
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:22,160
Speaker 1: versus one players association. But anyway, we are probably a

1459
01:29:22,479 --> 01:29:27,599
Speaker 1: least a year or two away from that environment, causing

1460
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 1: our friends at the athletic to actually start hiring more

1461
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:33,400
Speaker 1: labor lawyers to do their reporting. But I digress. Let's

1462
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:39,719
Speaker 1: get into some ass chuck ass Chuck. First question comes

1463
01:29:39,720 --> 01:29:43,320
Speaker 1: from Jeff, and it's a perfectly timed sports and politics question.

1464
01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:45,680
Speaker 1: He says, Hey, Chuck, Jeff from Pittsburgh Here. I just

1465
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:47,960
Speaker 1: dropped off my oldest son off for his first year

1466
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:50,879
Speaker 1: at university. He has a great interest in journalism, particularly

1467
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 1: sports and politics. Hey, that's familiar to me. But my

1468
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:56,839
Speaker 1: fear as a parent is naturally the dyingcy of legacy outlets.

1469
01:29:56,880 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 1: I've heard you mentioned in passing on the podcast about

1470
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 1: how local sports covered may have the potential to transform,

1471
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 1: support other local coverage, or remake the media landscape. Can

1472
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:09,640
Speaker 1: you elaborate on this? Yes, Look, I've been examining the

1473
01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:16,000
Speaker 1: local news landscape for quite some time through a variety

1474
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:19,280
Speaker 1: of potential business proposals. For one, I'm going to keep

1475
01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 1: some of it a bit cryptic on that, but here's

1476
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:26,559
Speaker 1: the basic premise. You know, local news they had two

1477
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:30,880
Speaker 1: main revenue streams for a long time, right advertised, well,

1478
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:35,960
Speaker 1: three main revenue streams, advertising, subscriptions and classified. And it

1479
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:38,600
Speaker 1: was really classified that were the sort of the reliable

1480
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 1: revenue generator ADS. ADS would go up and down, if

1481
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 1: you will, and even like subscriptions, you know, yes that mattered,

1482
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 1: but in some cases it wasn't you know, you know,

1483
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:52,040
Speaker 1: they were just dying to make sure you got the pay.

1484
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:54,400
Speaker 1: You know, it was more important for them to have

1485
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:57,519
Speaker 1: higher circulation numbers to sell to advertisers than it was

1486
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:05,080
Speaker 1: necessarily to get wrecked subscription income revenue from each household.

1487
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:08,680
Speaker 1: So that's why I've always looked at it more as

1488
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:13,120
Speaker 1: two primary primary resources there. And you know, as i've

1489
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 1: you may have heard me say this on this podcast,

1490
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:17,120
Speaker 1: I say it wherever I go. I said, a man

1491
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:20,759
Speaker 1: named Craig decided classified out to be free. YadA, YadA, YadA,

1492
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:24,840
Speaker 1: Donald Trump became president. Because what happened is I do

1493
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 1: think when we knocked out local and classified, when when

1494
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 1: you got rid of classified revenue for basically any news

1495
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:34,719
Speaker 1: newspaper that had a circulation of fifty thousand or less,

1496
01:31:35,160 --> 01:31:39,000
Speaker 1: that was sixty to seventy percent of their revenue. So look,

1497
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:42,439
Speaker 1: let me speed through this part, which is I don't

1498
01:31:42,479 --> 01:31:45,679
Speaker 1: think nonprofit is a way to is a long term

1499
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:48,800
Speaker 1: solution to the local news crisis that we have in America.

1500
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:52,760
Speaker 1: So I think that you got to find a revenue stream.

1501
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:56,920
Speaker 1: And I actually think the fact that for all the

1502
01:31:56,960 --> 01:31:59,240
Speaker 1: reasons I just talked about in this episode about how

1503
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:02,920
Speaker 1: much money's come into college, how much money is being

1504
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:05,599
Speaker 1: poured into high school sports to prepare to get your

1505
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:07,960
Speaker 1: opportunity in college now. And this is no longer just

1506
01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:14,560
Speaker 1: about basketball and football. This is across the board right beach, volleyball, lacrosse,

1507
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:18,600
Speaker 1: both men's and women's soccer, both men's and women's women's softball,

1508
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:22,719
Speaker 1: even men's baseball in some places is a net positive

1509
01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:28,360
Speaker 1: revenue sport. And what that's going to do even as

1510
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 1: we're at this weird demographic cliff where we have we're

1511
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 1: actually stagnant when it comes to to growth of the

1512
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:39,760
Speaker 1: under seventeen generation. Like you know, universities have been talking

1513
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,800
Speaker 1: about this that this was the beginning of this demographic

1514
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:47,160
Speaker 1: cliff where we you know, and then you throw in

1515
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 1: that we're a little more restrictive on immigration, so are

1516
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 1: we are getting older as a country, not younger. But

1517
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 1: when it comes to youth sports, it's primarily been pretty

1518
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:01,320
Speaker 1: boy heavy, and I think now the amount of opportunity

1519
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:05,200
Speaker 1: in women's sports, you're going to see gender parity among

1520
01:33:05,200 --> 01:33:08,519
Speaker 1: these sports. So it is going It is a huge

1521
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:11,280
Speaker 1: growth area and there is just a ton of money

1522
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:13,760
Speaker 1: and I think if a way if you're trying to

1523
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:17,960
Speaker 1: build a local news organization, and I've I've there are

1524
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:21,879
Speaker 1: some good examples that I've come across in my research

1525
01:33:21,920 --> 01:33:26,360
Speaker 1: of the local news ecosystem that local sports is a

1526
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 1: pretty good UH magnet to get readers, to get people

1527
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:34,639
Speaker 1: interested in what you're doing. And if you can become

1528
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:37,599
Speaker 1: in the same way, right then my friends at NBC

1529
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: throw a bunch of money to get the NBA because

1530
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 1: in there, and you know, live sports during the week

1531
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:46,680
Speaker 1: is sort of one of these last ways you can

1532
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:49,160
Speaker 1: get people to turn on a legacy TV channel. It's

1533
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 1: the same thing in local if you can become the

1534
01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:55,400
Speaker 1: hub and I believe if you can become the local

1535
01:33:55,479 --> 01:33:59,760
Speaker 1: hub of how the community watches the local high school

1536
01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:04,200
Speaker 1: foot ball game or watches the twelve you travel teams

1537
01:34:04,200 --> 01:34:07,519
Speaker 1: in your community play each other, and maybe you put

1538
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:10,680
Speaker 1: that behind a paywall, but you also are creating a

1539
01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:14,920
Speaker 1: friendly or advertising environment. Small businesses love being associated with

1540
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:19,920
Speaker 1: youth sports, right. It's not polarizing as a as somebody

1541
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:23,400
Speaker 1: who cares about trying to glue communities back together between

1542
01:34:23,400 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 1: red and blue. I think sports is one of the

1543
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:28,920
Speaker 1: safe zones that you can do that with you can

1544
01:34:29,240 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 1: if you start with sports, you build your trust that way,

1545
01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:35,000
Speaker 1: and then over time you can build trust with them

1546
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:37,200
Speaker 1: and then eventually they will believe you when you say

1547
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:38,839
Speaker 1: and oh, by the way, we're also doing this reporting

1548
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:40,920
Speaker 1: over here to tell you that your city councilman's corrupt.

1549
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:44,559
Speaker 1: So that's my.

1550
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:47,439
Speaker 3: That's my.

1551
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:52,439
Speaker 1: Thesis, and it's one I've put together in a business plan,

1552
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 1: and it's one I really believe in. I know this.

1553
01:34:55,479 --> 01:35:00,360
Speaker 1: The youth sports world is going to be is growing,

1554
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:02,920
Speaker 1: and it's growing extraordinarily fast, and it's only going to

1555
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,719
Speaker 1: get bigger, and there's a whole bunch of people wanting

1556
01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:08,759
Speaker 1: to invest money in it. There's not as many people

1557
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:10,880
Speaker 1: that want to invest money in local news. They've sort

1558
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 1: of almost written it off, thinking, oh, it should be

1559
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,720
Speaker 1: just a project of nonprofit. Well, I'm not ready to

1560
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:18,679
Speaker 1: write it off, and I'm like, can we marry these

1561
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:22,680
Speaker 1: two entities if you will? Right, Ultimately, you need a

1562
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:27,920
Speaker 1: local publisher to let you know that the youth sports

1563
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 1: tree fell in the forest and here's the scores, and

1564
01:35:31,200 --> 01:35:34,479
Speaker 1: somebody's got to deal with the infrastructure to make sure

1565
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:37,439
Speaker 1: the stream lives somewhere and you can have a place

1566
01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:40,599
Speaker 1: to see the highlights and etc. So I just think

1567
01:35:40,640 --> 01:35:43,320
Speaker 1: that this is one of these things where it's when,

1568
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:47,160
Speaker 1: if you will right, we can rebuild a more trusted

1569
01:35:47,200 --> 01:35:52,280
Speaker 1: local ecosystem. And oh, by the way, we're providing a

1570
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:56,360
Speaker 1: service to the community that it really wants. Trust me,

1571
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:58,840
Speaker 1: as a parent of two kids that were pretty active

1572
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:02,120
Speaker 1: in the youth sports space, five or six different apps,

1573
01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:04,880
Speaker 1: you'd run late you didn't want to miss an app bat,

1574
01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, towards the end of their youth sports careers.

1575
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 1: There'd be the occasional parent that says, hey, I've created

1576
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:15,360
Speaker 1: a live stream, go to this what was it Vimeo?

1577
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:17,639
Speaker 1: I think is the Mayo. I don't know if I've

1578
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:21,479
Speaker 1: said it right, and you could kind of watch it

1579
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:24,559
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. So I do think this is

1580
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:27,080
Speaker 1: actually and it goes back to what I believe a

1581
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:31,040
Speaker 1: successful local news publication has to be, which is a

1582
01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:35,920
Speaker 1: service journalism, meaning you really are in service to the community.

1583
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:38,080
Speaker 1: You're helping people in the community live their lives. So

1584
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 1: one part of that is making it easier for them

1585
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:43,759
Speaker 1: to keep up with the youth sports scene. But another

1586
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:46,439
Speaker 1: might be you hire an influencer who's just there to

1587
01:36:46,439 --> 01:36:50,160
Speaker 1: help you save money on food. Right, they keep track of,

1588
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, the price of chicken on everywhere, the price

1589
01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:55,280
Speaker 1: of eggs, and what restaurant makes it easier to take

1590
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:59,240
Speaker 1: two small children to go out and not break the bank,

1591
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:03,280
Speaker 1: et cetera. Right, you essentially recreate the old As I say,

1592
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:06,599
Speaker 1: you're recreating what everybody loved about the newspaper bundle. Right.

1593
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 1: I've always said this about the old newspaper. We all

1594
01:37:09,080 --> 01:37:11,320
Speaker 1: got it, but only ten percent of it cared about

1595
01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:14,840
Speaker 1: the news part. The other ninety percent had something else

1596
01:37:14,840 --> 01:37:17,639
Speaker 1: we had in there. It was just a terrific bundle. Well,

1597
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:20,160
Speaker 1: you start to unpack that bundle and say, what is

1598
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 1: it that helped? You know? So you need to find

1599
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:23,880
Speaker 1: out what's going on in your community. You need to

1600
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:25,800
Speaker 1: find out how to save money in your community. You

1601
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:28,519
Speaker 1: need to find out what's the weather in my area

1602
01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:30,560
Speaker 1: going to be, not just on the other side of

1603
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:34,639
Speaker 1: the county. Well, my goodness, weather forecasting has never been more.

1604
01:37:35,040 --> 01:37:37,879
Speaker 1: The only good local news the Washington Post does anymore

1605
01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:40,559
Speaker 1: is its weather in Capitol Weather Gang. Because of the

1606
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:44,479
Speaker 1: ability to micro forecast, they literally can have pretty accurate

1607
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:49,640
Speaker 1: forecasts of my neighborhood and the neighborhood next door and

1608
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:54,439
Speaker 1: be correct it is, and so every community. If I

1609
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:57,559
Speaker 1: were running a local news operation, whether it's in Pittsburgh,

1610
01:37:57,640 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 1: Kansas or Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, I'd be hiring a local meteorologist.

1611
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:07,280
Speaker 1: By the way, my daughter's minoring and meteorology, so she

1612
01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:10,200
Speaker 1: needs a job too. And one other thing to sort

1613
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 1: of alleviate you your concern about about journalism as a

1614
01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:22,519
Speaker 1: career for your for your for your son. When I

1615
01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:26,960
Speaker 1: entered the information ecosystem, space journalism, whatever we want to

1616
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:29,439
Speaker 1: call it anymore, in the early nineties, it was at

1617
01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:33,320
Speaker 1: a time of media contraction, but there was a whole

1618
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:36,880
Speaker 1: bunch of startups and I got a whole bunch of

1619
01:38:36,920 --> 01:38:41,240
Speaker 1: early experience and startups where the old legacy reporters didn't

1620
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 1: want to bother understanding what the internet was. And at

1621
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:48,680
Speaker 1: twenty three, because I was comfortable on the internet, you know,

1622
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:51,320
Speaker 1: I you know, had an early political column. I was

1623
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:54,320
Speaker 1: doing analysis on day all because the old legacy reporters

1624
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:56,760
Speaker 1: didn't want to do it. So what I would say

1625
01:38:56,840 --> 01:39:00,320
Speaker 1: is that if there's ever an exciting time to be

1626
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:03,559
Speaker 1: in in the world of journalism, it's when you're in

1627
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:06,280
Speaker 1: your twenties, not when you're like me in your fifties.

1628
01:39:06,680 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 1: And here's one other way to give you some to

1629
01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:11,360
Speaker 1: give you a little bit more comfort that this isn't

1630
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:14,840
Speaker 1: a wasted degree for your for your son. More and

1631
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:18,880
Speaker 1: more Fortune five hundred, there is now this belief in

1632
01:39:18,920 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 1: the in the in the corporate world that you've got

1633
01:39:22,479 --> 01:39:25,799
Speaker 1: to run your own communications. This isn't just about finding

1634
01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:28,160
Speaker 1: a media outlet that will be friendly to you when

1635
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:30,400
Speaker 1: you roll out your new logo or your new this.

1636
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:34,599
Speaker 1: You've got to create your own content. And more and

1637
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:37,800
Speaker 1: more Fortune five hundred companies want to be their own publishers.

1638
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:42,760
Speaker 1: They're setting up comm shops that look more like newsrooms

1639
01:39:43,479 --> 01:39:48,479
Speaker 1: than they are just marketing material. And so there is

1640
01:39:48,560 --> 01:39:51,000
Speaker 1: actually a demand. There's quite a few of my former

1641
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:55,679
Speaker 1: colleagues are going into the corporate world to essentially set

1642
01:39:55,800 --> 01:40:01,120
Speaker 1: up be a news newsletter publisher, or be a content

1643
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:04,680
Speaker 1: creator for their TikTok page, or to set up podcasts,

1644
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:09,640
Speaker 1: you know, maybe a weekly podcast that the CEO is

1645
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:12,000
Speaker 1: a part of, or that they do for communication. So

1646
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:16,920
Speaker 1: I think that the while the narrow when you look

1647
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:19,640
Speaker 1: at the world of journalism through the narrow lens of

1648
01:40:19,680 --> 01:40:22,439
Speaker 1: sort of what we thought of as journalism twenty years ago,

1649
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:25,519
Speaker 1: it looks like a shrinking field when you look at

1650
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:32,000
Speaker 1: it through the prism of communications and managing media. Well,

1651
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:35,639
Speaker 1: then suddenly the same skills are necessary and many more

1652
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:39,120
Speaker 1: entities want to hire people with this skill set. So

1653
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:44,400
Speaker 1: I think it's a I think there's more opportunity than

1654
01:40:44,439 --> 01:40:48,680
Speaker 1: you realize. So I you know, I want to make

1655
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 1: you feel better Jeff, that this is I get it.

1656
01:40:51,640 --> 01:40:54,200
Speaker 1: But if you sort of sort of.

1657
01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:56,720
Speaker 3: What is it?

1658
01:40:57,000 --> 01:40:59,360
Speaker 1: Widen your aperture here of what of? What is? Could

1659
01:40:59,439 --> 01:41:04,479
Speaker 1: you know? The traditional jobs are gone, but there are

1660
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:08,759
Speaker 1: suddenly a lot of other opportunities that also exist where

1661
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:12,479
Speaker 1: getting this journalism degree is going to be an asset

1662
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:18,559
Speaker 1: not a liability, I promise. Okay. Next question comes from Bobs.

1663
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:21,600
Speaker 1: A lot of smack talk here on football. Looks like

1664
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:23,519
Speaker 1: I've been a long time listening to your podcast, always

1665
01:41:23,560 --> 01:41:25,840
Speaker 1: enjoyed your work on me pressed. I'm listening and listening

1666
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:27,519
Speaker 1: to your most recent podcast. Has struck me that two

1667
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:29,920
Speaker 1: of your favorite sport teams sports teams happen to be

1668
01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:32,240
Speaker 1: playing two of my favorite sports teams in their opening games.

1669
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:34,559
Speaker 1: That said, let me make these predictions. Notre Dame beats

1670
01:41:34,560 --> 01:41:37,759
Speaker 1: Miami in a close game, Detroit's Bank screen Bay. Thanks.

1671
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:39,840
Speaker 1: Should these results come to fruition, I just hope it

1672
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:42,320
Speaker 1: will not impact your excellent commentary in the ensuing days,

1673
01:41:42,439 --> 01:41:44,960
Speaker 1: nor teint the remainder of their respective schedules, except for

1674
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:47,920
Speaker 1: green Bay second loss to Detroit on Thanksgiving, compounding any

1675
01:41:48,160 --> 01:41:51,040
Speaker 1: gastro intestinal issues for green Bay fans that day. Hey,

1676
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:52,920
Speaker 1: by the way, that game's at noon, so it's actually

1677
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:56,960
Speaker 1: before you start totally consuming too much food. Trust me,

1678
01:41:57,040 --> 01:41:59,559
Speaker 1: my son and I have already noted what time those

1679
01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:04,160
Speaker 1: things give. Games are Cheers, go Irish, cool lions. Appreciate that, Bob,

1680
01:42:05,200 --> 01:42:09,320
Speaker 1: You're gonna love this. My son's roommate, he knew his

1681
01:42:09,360 --> 01:42:11,240
Speaker 1: roommate a little bit, but he didn't know his roommate

1682
01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:14,840
Speaker 1: really well. His roommate moved in the day before and

1683
01:42:16,320 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 1: when we go into the room, the first thing we

1684
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:22,800
Speaker 1: see is this Lion's flag all taped up on the wall.

1685
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:26,360
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh man, and my son brought

1686
01:42:26,360 --> 01:42:28,559
Speaker 1: to Jordan love Jersey. But he didn't bring up the

1687
01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:34,800
Speaker 1: packer flag. So of course I have I am win

1688
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:37,599
Speaker 1: on Amazon quickly to order him a packer flag so

1689
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:41,000
Speaker 1: he could have some he could have, hey, and some

1690
01:42:41,080 --> 01:42:46,200
Speaker 1: fun and fun little Miami news. My son ran into

1691
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:49,120
Speaker 1: Tyler Van Dyke. If you're an old school Hurricanes fan

1692
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:50,800
Speaker 1: or if at least been following them from more than

1693
01:42:50,840 --> 01:42:56,840
Speaker 1: the last twenty four last year, Tyler Van Dyke was

1694
01:42:56,840 --> 01:43:00,680
Speaker 1: was had sort of six great games from Miami a

1695
01:43:00,760 --> 01:43:03,000
Speaker 1: few years back, and there was some thought that maybe

1696
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:06,280
Speaker 1: in Manny Dias his last year, that maybe he could

1697
01:43:06,280 --> 01:43:09,559
Speaker 1: get us over the finish line. He didn't, But his

1698
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:13,040
Speaker 1: best years at Miami were when Rhet Lashley was the

1699
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:15,439
Speaker 1: offensive coordinator. Well, Rhet Lashley's now the head coach at

1700
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:19,800
Speaker 1: SMU and Tyler Van Dyke is playing his last season

1701
01:43:19,880 --> 01:43:22,840
Speaker 1: right now. He's the backup at SMU. My son ran

1702
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:25,120
Speaker 1: into him, recognized him, and he couldn't have been nicer,

1703
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:29,639
Speaker 1: couldn't have been you know. So it's like, Wow, I'm

1704
01:43:29,640 --> 01:43:31,720
Speaker 1: eighteen and he's a grown man. He goes, I just

1705
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:33,880
Speaker 1: felt like I believe we're both students at SMU was

1706
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:37,160
Speaker 1: sort of his reaction. But if Tyler, for whatever reason,

1707
01:43:37,160 --> 01:43:41,160
Speaker 1: if you're listening, I really appreciate how great you were

1708
01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 1: to your fellow SMU mustang freshman there, So thank you

1709
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 1: for that. Next question comes from Brian in Massachusetts. Second

1710
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:54,720
Speaker 1: time writer here. Recently, you said that Marco Rubio was

1711
01:43:55,160 --> 01:43:57,000
Speaker 1: one of the only adults in the room, Bessen being

1712
01:43:57,040 --> 01:43:59,679
Speaker 1: the other. Have you heard if Rubio has any regrets

1713
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:02,080
Speaker 1: or is embarrassed. His body language tends to say so,

1714
01:44:02,200 --> 01:44:04,439
Speaker 1: but when he's interviewed he sounds trumpy. I was never

1715
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:06,639
Speaker 1: a big fan of his, but this feels like when

1716
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:11,680
Speaker 1: Hulkgan became a bad guy. Brian from track at Massachusetts.

1717
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:18,280
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, look, I Marco Rubio and I grew up.

1718
01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:23,280
Speaker 1: Both grew up in Miami. Uh think he graduated the

1719
01:44:23,400 --> 01:44:25,400
Speaker 1: year after me or a year before me. I can't

1720
01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:27,760
Speaker 1: quite remember. I think he graduated from South Miami High School.

1721
01:44:27,760 --> 01:44:32,080
Speaker 1: I went to Killing High School. His football coach was

1722
01:44:32,120 --> 01:44:34,320
Speaker 1: an old family friend of mine. So we've but we

1723
01:44:34,360 --> 01:44:37,880
Speaker 1: didn't know each other back then, and I'm not gonna

1724
01:44:38,120 --> 01:44:41,639
Speaker 1: but there's certainly we know a lot of people who

1725
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:43,200
Speaker 1: know each other type of mindset.

1726
01:44:43,280 --> 01:44:43,439
Speaker 3: Right.

1727
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:46,200
Speaker 1: It's a you know, like any like any community, it

1728
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:47,960
Speaker 1: can feel like a small town. The more you get

1729
01:44:47,960 --> 01:44:54,240
Speaker 1: to know people, it's a riddle. It's a riddle on Rubio.

1730
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:59,559
Speaker 1: I will say this. I think that I look every

1731
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 1: time I see the administration be surprisingly supportive of Ukraine.

1732
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:06,960
Speaker 1: I think, oh, Rubio had a good day getting to Trump,

1733
01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:09,640
Speaker 1: And when I see then Trump going the other way,

1734
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:12,880
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, Rubio wasn't there today. Vance had the

1735
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:19,200
Speaker 1: presidents here on that stuff. So look, I don't know

1736
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:22,880
Speaker 1: where you know, Ruby is not the only one. There's

1737
01:45:22,880 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 1: a lot of Republicans who have expressed discomfort over the years,

1738
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:31,160
Speaker 1: some of them publicly who have since acquiesced, some of

1739
01:45:31,200 --> 01:45:36,639
Speaker 1: them privately who have never gone public. I look at

1740
01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:41,040
Speaker 1: some of the things that happened, you know, I can't

1741
01:45:41,040 --> 01:45:46,600
Speaker 1: believe the irresponsibility of confirming Robert F. Kennedy Junior to

1742
01:45:46,720 --> 01:45:50,920
Speaker 1: hhs it. I gotta think there are some well, I

1743
01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:53,880
Speaker 1: know there are at least two or three Republican senators

1744
01:45:53,880 --> 01:45:58,280
Speaker 1: who regret their vote. But you know, the confirmations of Patel,

1745
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:05,040
Speaker 1: hag Seth, Gabbert, and Kennedy are probably for the most

1746
01:46:05,080 --> 01:46:09,040
Speaker 1: irresponsible ones that we've seen the Senate do. And there

1747
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:11,760
Speaker 1: were a majority against them. What they were afraid of

1748
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:14,240
Speaker 1: going public? You know, if there had been secret ballots,

1749
01:46:14,240 --> 01:46:16,280
Speaker 1: none of those four in the Senate, none of those

1750
01:46:16,280 --> 01:46:19,360
Speaker 1: four get confirmed, not a single one of those four

1751
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:22,759
Speaker 1: that I just mentioned, only because it's on the public record,

1752
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:26,599
Speaker 1: and in some ways that's why you noticed there's always

1753
01:46:26,600 --> 01:46:29,040
Speaker 1: a move to try to make certain things more public,

1754
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:32,559
Speaker 1: because it is harder to say no to the president

1755
01:46:32,600 --> 01:46:34,120
Speaker 1: when you have to do so in public. It is

1756
01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:37,320
Speaker 1: a lot easier if you can somehow stop him without

1757
01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:40,840
Speaker 1: having to publicly go after him and do that. But

1758
01:46:40,920 --> 01:46:45,720
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna look, I I played the what is

1759
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:50,360
Speaker 1: Rubio really thinking game for a few years during the

1760
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:57,639
Speaker 1: second half of term one. I have retired that part

1761
01:46:57,760 --> 01:47:05,840
Speaker 1: of my a part of my obsession over there, and

1762
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:08,920
Speaker 1: so it is you know, Look, I do think that

1763
01:47:10,400 --> 01:47:12,720
Speaker 1: on his foreign policy issues, that when it comes to

1764
01:47:12,800 --> 01:47:17,519
Speaker 1: Latin America, when it comes to America's national security, that

1765
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:21,000
Speaker 1: he does have some deeply held beliefs, and it does

1766
01:47:21,040 --> 01:47:26,080
Speaker 1: seem to me that he tries to not throw away

1767
01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:31,200
Speaker 1: all of those beliefs in service to Trump. But he

1768
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:34,120
Speaker 1: has certainly proven to be a I guess the polite

1769
01:47:34,120 --> 01:47:36,160
Speaker 1: way would be calling it flexible when it comes to

1770
01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:40,519
Speaker 1: what he used to define what he wants to find

1771
01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:44,519
Speaker 1: is conservative and what he embraces his conservatism today. But

1772
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:47,599
Speaker 1: I do think he is ecstatic to sit there and

1773
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:52,599
Speaker 1: be in some ways to be compartmentalized as the foreign

1774
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:58,360
Speaker 1: policy guy, because let's just say, I think even Senator

1775
01:47:58,439 --> 01:48:01,680
Speaker 1: Rubio would have spoken out against taking a piece of intel,

1776
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:04,400
Speaker 1: and I think he would have been, like you knows,

1777
01:48:04,960 --> 01:48:11,000
Speaker 1: as the son of exiles, Cuban exiles. Nationalizing the idea

1778
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:15,200
Speaker 1: of any sort of government control of a company is

1779
01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:20,960
Speaker 1: something that is that that that many a true sort

1780
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:24,760
Speaker 1: of anti Castro Cuban exile would just find appalling and

1781
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:27,960
Speaker 1: be very concerned that it was a slippery slope to

1782
01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:31,560
Speaker 1: Latin American style authoritarianism. And in fact, it's funny. I

1783
01:48:31,920 --> 01:48:35,200
Speaker 1: have I've actually been thinking about that, I've been putting together.

1784
01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:38,240
Speaker 1: I haven't. I haven't, and it's not quite ready, it's

1785
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:41,280
Speaker 1: not quite ready to to to debut here on the pod.

1786
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:46,559
Speaker 1: But there are a number of similarities here to sort

1787
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:50,160
Speaker 1: of what we've seen in South America before, whether it's

1788
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:54,799
Speaker 1: in Venezuela, whether it's in Argentina, frankly, whether it's in Bolivia,

1789
01:48:54,840 --> 01:48:58,160
Speaker 1: whether it's in Mexico. But you're seeing certain certain things

1790
01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:02,840
Speaker 1: that Trump is doing that we've seen in countries where

1791
01:49:04,200 --> 01:49:09,519
Speaker 1: we have said democracy is backsliding. All right, next question, UMM,

1792
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:11,360
Speaker 1: think I'm going to try to sneak in two more

1793
01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:14,400
Speaker 1: here on Georgia Show, on Georgia Show, on Me the Press,

1794
01:49:14,400 --> 01:49:16,160
Speaker 1: and was delighted to join your podcast. Two things I

1795
01:49:16,200 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 1: want to follow up on One? Where can I find

1796
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:22,080
Speaker 1: a book or publication that explains voting trends by generations?

1797
01:49:23,320 --> 01:49:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm a baby boomer and want to understand the number

1798
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:26,760
Speaker 1: of voters it turned out and the results of voting

1799
01:49:26,760 --> 01:49:29,000
Speaker 1: in this country since Kennedy, that is, when I was

1800
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:31,080
Speaker 1: able to vote. He died before I could vote for him.

1801
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:33,920
Speaker 1: I'm hungry for better world news. Oh number two, I'm

1802
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:35,920
Speaker 1: hungry for better world news. You mentioned a publication that

1803
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 1: shares more information. Will you share that with me? Please?

1804
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:41,920
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Keep up, keep up, keep making

1805
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:45,040
Speaker 1: us think, Barbara Jean, thank you, Barbara for both of

1806
01:49:45,080 --> 01:49:48,439
Speaker 1: those questions. You know, there's not really one publication on

1807
01:49:48,600 --> 01:49:52,639
Speaker 1: the on the generational voting patterns. This is I don't

1808
01:49:52,640 --> 01:49:55,200
Speaker 1: know if you may be reacting to the conversation I

1809
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:58,640
Speaker 1: had with Charlie Cook about our deep collections of the

1810
01:49:58,680 --> 01:50:02,000
Speaker 1: oman x of American policy, because in some ways these

1811
01:50:02,040 --> 01:50:04,479
Speaker 1: are things that we've we've had to do together.

1812
01:50:04,680 --> 01:50:05,559
Speaker 3: There there is.

1813
01:50:07,400 --> 01:50:13,840
Speaker 1: The Brookings Institute puts out a publication called Vital Statistics

1814
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:17,719
Speaker 1: on Congress. It does have some voting trends in there.

1815
01:50:17,800 --> 01:50:20,120
Speaker 1: You can actually it looks like they now just offer

1816
01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:25,519
Speaker 1: it up as a PDF download that goes through. At

1817
01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:28,640
Speaker 1: least it gives you a sense of of the shifting

1818
01:50:31,040 --> 01:50:34,880
Speaker 1: the shifting map of congressional seats more for Congress than

1819
01:50:34,920 --> 01:50:40,840
Speaker 1: anywhere else. Congressional Quarterly used to puts out something called

1820
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:44,320
Speaker 1: Politics in America, where they've kept a more of a

1821
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:47,960
Speaker 1: longer I think in the publication itself they include the

1822
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:52,559
Speaker 1: sort of longer voting trend lines on that front. But

1823
01:50:52,640 --> 01:50:58,880
Speaker 1: what you're describing itself doesn't really exist in one book form, right,

1824
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:01,200
Speaker 1: I think it is. In fact, I've been encouraging my

1825
01:51:01,240 --> 01:51:03,280
Speaker 1: friend John del Vope, who you may have heard a

1826
01:51:03,320 --> 01:51:05,840
Speaker 1: podcast with him a couple of weeks ago. For twenty

1827
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 1: five years he's run the Harvard Youth Pole. So what

1828
01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:12,840
Speaker 1: does that mean. He has been polling the basically millennials

1829
01:51:12,840 --> 01:51:16,040
Speaker 1: since they were eighteen and now since they were before,

1830
01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:18,280
Speaker 1: before they were eighteen, going into college, and now that

1831
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:21,479
Speaker 1: they're heading into middle age. You know this is all

1832
01:51:21,520 --> 01:51:24,400
Speaker 1: this is twenty five years of data. I'm like, John,

1833
01:51:24,439 --> 01:51:27,439
Speaker 1: you've got a book, here just sort of Millennials the

1834
01:51:28,360 --> 01:51:31,880
Speaker 1: next big generation, you know, in comparing them to the boomers.

1835
01:51:33,280 --> 01:51:36,640
Speaker 1: So I think that there is I think that I'm

1836
01:51:36,720 --> 01:51:40,559
Speaker 1: obsessed with the generation of sort of how you know.

1837
01:51:42,520 --> 01:51:46,360
Speaker 1: I buy into the scholarship that says we there's basically

1838
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:51,000
Speaker 1: four types of generations, and they just kind of repeat

1839
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:54,400
Speaker 1: each repeat each other, you know, since we have about four,

1840
01:51:54,479 --> 01:51:56,800
Speaker 1: I guess we're now you know, there's always pieces of

1841
01:51:57,280 --> 01:51:59,960
Speaker 1: a new generation an old generation on the outer edge

1842
01:52:00,120 --> 01:52:02,640
Speaker 1: is there, so you know, parts of six generations are

1843
01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:06,240
Speaker 1: living at one time these days, because because we keep

1844
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:11,080
Speaker 1: living longer and longer on that front. But I certainly

1845
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:14,240
Speaker 1: think a good analysis of the boomers over the years

1846
01:52:16,000 --> 01:52:20,760
Speaker 1: would be quite healthy. I think what you learn is

1847
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:24,120
Speaker 1: and this is what we're seeing, at least with the millennials.

1848
01:52:24,160 --> 01:52:27,479
Speaker 1: They started out very liberal, they have become less so

1849
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:34,080
Speaker 1: as they've aged. Boomers have been interestingly fairly even split

1850
01:52:34,120 --> 01:52:40,040
Speaker 1: the whole time. What I find interesting about the generations

1851
01:52:40,120 --> 01:52:43,480
Speaker 1: is that is that you know where you begin politically,

1852
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:45,559
Speaker 1: you know how close or far away from the center

1853
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:49,080
Speaker 1: do you begin. Usually is about what you're coming you know,

1854
01:52:49,120 --> 01:52:52,360
Speaker 1: what was the politics during your coming of age? Well,

1855
01:52:52,400 --> 01:52:54,639
Speaker 1: what's interesting with the boomers the coming of age times,

1856
01:52:54,640 --> 01:52:56,120
Speaker 1: and some of it was basically in the heart of

1857
01:52:56,160 --> 01:52:59,799
Speaker 1: a very polarized period of America, right the sixties. Well,

1858
01:53:00,040 --> 01:53:02,439
Speaker 1: here we are at the endgame of the Boomers. We're

1859
01:53:02,439 --> 01:53:05,639
Speaker 1: in a polarized era. We weren't as polarized in between

1860
01:53:06,200 --> 01:53:09,200
Speaker 1: as much, but we were there. Millennials came in and

1861
01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:13,160
Speaker 1: sort of at a low point for the Republicans and

1862
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:15,160
Speaker 1: at a hot and it's sort of a rising point

1863
01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:18,799
Speaker 1: for the Democrats with Obama, and that I think started

1864
01:53:18,840 --> 01:53:21,800
Speaker 1: them further, you know, started them in a more liberal trend.

1865
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:25,640
Speaker 1: Gen X when my coming of age Republican leadership in

1866
01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:28,840
Speaker 1: this country brought about the end of the Cold War. Right, Well,

1867
01:53:28,840 --> 01:53:31,719
Speaker 1: guess who's the most supportive of Republicans to this day.

1868
01:53:32,240 --> 01:53:35,000
Speaker 1: Of the four generations, it's not Boomers, it's not millennials,

1869
01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:37,640
Speaker 1: it's Gen X. So it is interesting to me, for

1870
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:44,640
Speaker 1: what it's worth is how much impact over time that

1871
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:47,120
Speaker 1: sort of the first coming of age for a generation,

1872
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:53,080
Speaker 1: what the coming of age period was politically in the country,

1873
01:53:53,280 --> 01:53:57,400
Speaker 1: and how it sort of hasn't has influence on sort

1874
01:53:57,439 --> 01:54:01,400
Speaker 1: of directionally how that generation votes and sort of how

1875
01:54:01,439 --> 01:54:04,240
Speaker 1: close to the center. Will they get to or deva

1876
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:07,720
Speaker 1: depend depending on course of where they started. All right,

1877
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:11,400
Speaker 1: last question here we are bordering on one hour of

1878
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:14,120
Speaker 1: non interview time. I want to be mindful of that.

1879
01:54:14,880 --> 01:54:19,600
Speaker 1: This comes from Blaze M and Blaze Rights. Listening to

1880
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:21,960
Speaker 1: your message about chicken at Trader Joe's got me thinking

1881
01:54:22,240 --> 01:54:26,519
Speaker 1: I was recently shopping for Halloween chocolate to eat now,

1882
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:29,120
Speaker 1: of course, and realize most of what was on the

1883
01:54:29,160 --> 01:54:31,960
Speaker 1: shelves wasn't actually chocolate at all, just chocolate flavored candy

1884
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:35,760
Speaker 1: with barely any cocoa didn't qualify to be labeled as chocolate.

1885
01:54:36,160 --> 01:54:38,760
Speaker 1: Later that day, I noticed a store brand apple drink

1886
01:54:38,800 --> 01:54:41,000
Speaker 1: that was really just apple flavored sugar water, sitting right

1887
01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:42,880
Speaker 1: next to real apple juice that cost a bit more.

1888
01:54:43,160 --> 01:54:45,280
Speaker 1: Makes me wonder how many people actually check the labels

1889
01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:47,560
Speaker 1: and how often we're left without the option of the

1890
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:50,880
Speaker 1: real thing. That's interesting. Look, you point out something that

1891
01:54:51,160 --> 01:54:57,120
Speaker 1: you know, especially especially when it comes to chocolate or

1892
01:54:57,240 --> 01:55:00,000
Speaker 1: in particular. I had a lung conversation actually with steam

1893
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:04,160
Speaker 1: more conservative economists who's very friendly to Trump but at

1894
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:07,640
Speaker 1: the same time very nervous about these tariffs, and noted that, hey,

1895
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, all of our coffee is important. And when

1896
01:55:13,120 --> 01:55:14,920
Speaker 1: you were writing this, it made me think, how much

1897
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:18,200
Speaker 1: are we going to see coffee flavored drinks without coffee

1898
01:55:18,240 --> 01:55:22,879
Speaker 1: in it, because it's cheaper to make the artificial flavor.

1899
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:25,640
Speaker 1: Let's say, if it's a cold brew, or if it's

1900
01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:29,600
Speaker 1: you know, you know, one of those canned lattes or whatever,

1901
01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 1: because the cost of coffee is skyrocketing, and we're also

1902
01:55:35,360 --> 01:55:39,000
Speaker 1: in a we've politicized the trade war with Brazil over

1903
01:55:39,280 --> 01:55:44,160
Speaker 1: over Trump's obsession over Bolsonaro there and the fact that

1904
01:55:44,320 --> 01:55:47,720
Speaker 1: the Brazilian government held Bolsonaro accountable for his attempted coup.

1905
01:55:49,320 --> 01:55:53,000
Speaker 1: But all of that is contributing to just skyrocketing prices

1906
01:55:53,040 --> 01:55:58,040
Speaker 1: on coffee. And so your observation is interesting. I and

1907
01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:00,280
Speaker 1: I and I am gonna It's gonna make me look

1908
01:56:00,280 --> 01:56:05,160
Speaker 1: at chocolate. I've been ignoring chocolate for quite some time

1909
01:56:05,240 --> 01:56:09,240
Speaker 1: because I once you hit Middle Ages, there are certain

1910
01:56:09,280 --> 01:56:12,040
Speaker 1: things that don't you know, I like chocolate. Chocolate doesn't

1911
01:56:12,080 --> 01:56:14,920
Speaker 1: like me. So I've actually not been in the market

1912
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:18,800
Speaker 1: for even chocolate like substances and sometime, but I do

1913
01:56:18,840 --> 01:56:21,400
Speaker 1: see a similar I'm going to be looking for it there,

1914
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:25,480
Speaker 1: and I would be saying I think I wouldn't be

1915
01:56:25,520 --> 01:56:27,640
Speaker 1: surprised if we start seeing the same thing when it

1916
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:31,680
Speaker 1: comes to coffee flavored, especially if the price of coffee

1917
01:56:31,720 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 1: itself continues to go up due to the terror force.

1918
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:40,000
Speaker 1: All Right, I will leave it at that. I think

1919
01:56:40,040 --> 01:56:42,280
Speaker 1: I've said this a few times this week. I've mentioned

1920
01:56:42,320 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 1: it now College Football Week one. College football is sort

1921
01:56:47,040 --> 01:56:51,800
Speaker 1: of my great and favorite and most passionate distraction. Baseball

1922
01:56:51,880 --> 01:56:55,240
Speaker 1: is also a passionate distraction. It really stunk for me

1923
01:56:55,480 --> 01:56:59,800
Speaker 1: throughout this baseball season that, in this tough time professionally

1924
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:04,000
Speaker 1: that we're covering these issues with Trump, that my distraction

1925
01:57:04,160 --> 01:57:08,440
Speaker 1: in the evening Nationals baseball was almost was almost as

1926
01:57:08,440 --> 01:57:15,360
Speaker 1: frustrating and didn't exactly uh, it didn't exactly uh give

1927
01:57:15,440 --> 01:57:19,240
Speaker 1: me the uh, give me the detached entertainment that you

1928
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:21,520
Speaker 1: kind of want when you're trying to when you're trying

1929
01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:24,520
Speaker 1: to uh trying to check out a little bit, if

1930
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:28,720
Speaker 1: you if you'd like to. I'm really nervous about my

1931
01:57:28,760 --> 01:57:34,400
Speaker 1: Miami Hurricanes. I've been it has been so long since

1932
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:38,200
Speaker 1: they were the team to beat that I now, you know,

1933
01:57:38,360 --> 01:57:42,440
Speaker 1: I'm always now I'm like I'm I'm I'm like Wiley coated.

1934
01:57:42,480 --> 01:57:46,400
Speaker 1: I'm always waiting for the anvil to drop. How are

1935
01:57:46,440 --> 01:57:48,160
Speaker 1: we going to blow this? How are we going to

1936
01:57:48,200 --> 01:57:51,280
Speaker 1: screw this up? The infamous fumble with Georgia Tech two

1937
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:54,760
Speaker 1: years ago, the blown twenty one point lead against Syracuse.

1938
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:01,400
Speaker 1: But in some ways I have some kind confidence that

1939
01:58:01,520 --> 01:58:05,320
Speaker 1: Miami at night is just a whole different place to

1940
01:58:05,360 --> 01:58:10,440
Speaker 1: be when it comes to college football. If not, I'll

1941
01:58:10,480 --> 01:58:13,920
Speaker 1: be eating some Irish crow the next time I upload

1942
01:58:14,200 --> 01:58:17,320
Speaker 1: on Tuesday morning, and with that, enjoy the final weekend

1943
01:58:17,320 --> 01:58:20,400
Speaker 1: of the summer and until we upload again.