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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's wild to think that, yeah, someone's great grandparents got

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Speaker 2: away with murder, they still got to be members of

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Speaker 2: the Phoenix Country.

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Speaker 3: Club and still got to live the life of high society.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

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Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 2: My name is Dawson Fairnell, and I'm here in Phoenix, Arizona,

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Speaker 2: and I'm a freelance writer. My day job is in marketing.

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Speaker 2: I used to be a magazine editor. Back in the day,

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Speaker 2: one of these things called print magazines. They would actually

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Speaker 2: print them up and mail them to you. But now

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Speaker 2: I just focused strictly on freelance and mostly on historical

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Speaker 2: and true crime.

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Speaker 1: And mostly in the Phoenix where I were, at least

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Speaker 1: in Arizona.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Arizona. I only focused on historic crime after

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Speaker 2: the DEA showed up at my door when I wrote

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Speaker 2: about designer drug producer here in Phoenix, and the DEA

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Speaker 2: actually showed up at my door and said they were

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Speaker 2: convicting him and wanted to speak to some of my sources.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and my wife said, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I think we're done writing about living criminals. And

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Speaker 2: so I was a history major, so I was always

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Speaker 2: attracted to historical crime anyways. And you don't have to

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Speaker 2: worry about, you know, them knocking on your door. There

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Speaker 2: is an incredible amount of information out there that's just

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Speaker 2: available if you dig for it, and you know where

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Speaker 2: to look, and you just keep ferreting out those dig deeper. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's some incredible stories that have just been totally washed

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Speaker 2: away and forgotten by time. You know, lots of crimes

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Speaker 2: of the century that last ten or fifteen years and

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Speaker 2: then are faded.

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Speaker 1: And the one case you want to talk to me

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Speaker 1: about now is what you've called the love Pirate, right,

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Speaker 1: and yes, we're going to set the scene first. So

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Speaker 1: this is I Love Prohibition. It's my favorite time period

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Speaker 1: to write about. This is prohibition in Arizona.

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Speaker 2: At the time, Arizona had just become a state. For

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Speaker 2: ten years less than that, nineteen fourteen we became a state,

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Speaker 2: and so this was nineteen twenty two. So Arizona, Phoenix

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Speaker 2: was a town of about forty eight thousand people, growing quickly,

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Speaker 2: but still a really dusty desert outpost, some small little

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Speaker 2: farm towns surrounded by hundreds thousands of miles of desert

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Speaker 2: and open land. It's very isolated town. The railroad had come.

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Speaker 2: There were a few highways and nothing we think of

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Speaker 2: as highways today, but kind of an isolated community. And

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Speaker 2: I actually came across the story. I was just I

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Speaker 2: had fallen into kind of an Internet hole and poking

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Speaker 2: around in Wikipedia and was researching the oldest private club

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Speaker 2: in town. It's called the Phoenix Country Club. They're very proud.

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Speaker 2: They were founded in eighteen ninety nine. They have a

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Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty acre estate in the middle of town.

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Speaker 2: I was researching it and they casually mentioned that in

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two, the secretary of the country club was

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Speaker 2: found drowned and floating in a canal. I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: that's interesting, and then they just casually mentioned that his

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Speaker 2: car was found along the side of the canal, with

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Speaker 2: his clothes nicely folded and his shoes just resting along

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Speaker 2: the canal bank. They also found a little black book

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Speaker 2: with one hundred.

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Speaker 3: Names in it.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, most of them women, including notations husband works

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Speaker 2: days only call at night.

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Speaker 1: So I think we know where this is going.

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Speaker 3: I thought, well, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: So yes, it turns out when they did the autopsy

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Speaker 2: there was no water in his lungs. He'd been strangled.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much someone's great grandpa got away with murder.

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Speaker 1: So start from the beginning with the story. Tell me

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Speaker 1: first who the victim is. So we know there's a

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Speaker 1: victim floating in the canal. And you said it was

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Speaker 1: an Arizona canal or where.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's called the Arizona Canal. It's actually the canal

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Speaker 2: that still waters my lawn every day, which is wild

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Speaker 2: to think about. So yeah, Arizona was just kind of

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Speaker 2: this big open land and at some point after the

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Speaker 2: Civil War, some settlers came in and discovered this ancient

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Speaker 2: Native American irrigation system, actually the largest irrigation system in

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Speaker 2: prehistoric North America. They think that up to fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: people lived in this area and lived off the farmland.

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Speaker 2: There would be here through most of the year, and

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Speaker 2: they would move north during the extreme heat of the summer.

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Speaker 2: At some point pre Columbus, that civilization had kind of

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Speaker 2: faded away astorally called the hocum.

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Speaker 3: Which means those who are gone.

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Speaker 2: So they rebuilt the canal system, and hence the name Phoenix.

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Speaker 2: It literally came out of the ashes of the ancient civilization.

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Speaker 2: So the canals that we still used today were originally

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Speaker 2: dredged a thousand years ago. It's a really interesting little

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Speaker 2: nugget of Phoenix. So obviously Phoenix is so stated with

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Speaker 2: highways and sprawl and he but the actual life blood

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Speaker 2: of the city for one hundreds of years was this

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Speaker 2: canal system that delivered water to the citrus groves pecan groves.

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Speaker 2: That was the main money maker in town. This gentleman

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Speaker 2: named Guy Dernier, he had moved out from Chicago. He

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Speaker 2: used to work for Montgomery Ward and he got tuberculosis,

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Speaker 2: which was very very common. It was and there was

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Speaker 2: no cure, and the only cure was to move to

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Speaker 2: a warmer climate.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of people came.

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Speaker 2: There were tuberculosis colonies, sanitariums, they would call him, and

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Speaker 2: so he came here. He recovered his health, but he

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Speaker 2: loved it. He immediately settled in and got a job

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Speaker 2: with the local IRS office and became a tax expert

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Speaker 2: and started climbing the social ladder.

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Speaker 1: So this is middle to upper class is yes.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes, yeah, no, he was very well. He was

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Speaker 2: tied him with it, very well to do the jet set,

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Speaker 2: swift crowd, as they call him, the millionaire set. But

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Speaker 2: one person who did not like Phoenix was missus Darney.

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Speaker 2: She hated the heat and she divorced him and moved

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Speaker 2: back to Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Just because of the heat.

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Speaker 3: That's that's her story.

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Speaker 2: And she's sticking to it. Ye, yes, exactly, And there

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Speaker 2: may be more to the story with that. That's what

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Speaker 2: she said when they followed up with her after his murderer,

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Speaker 2: is that it was amicable divorce and they had just

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Speaker 2: gone their separate ways and she divorced him. So he

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Speaker 2: was here in town, and like I said, he was

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Speaker 2: quite a social climber. He became involved with the Phoenix

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Speaker 2: Country Club, which is the oldest private organization here in town,

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Speaker 2: very snooty. One day he was found in a canal

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Speaker 2: about nine miles out of town, just floating in the

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Speaker 2: Arizona Canal.

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Speaker 1: Fully clothed.

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Speaker 2: He was actually in his silk underwear and wearing nothing else.

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Speaker 2: So there's just a pair of silk boxers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the original thought was he had gone swimming, which

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Speaker 2: was a common thing pre air conditioning to cool off.

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Speaker 2: Police recalled, they came out, They pulled him out of

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Speaker 2: the canal, found that he was still warm, the body

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Speaker 2: hadn't gone stiff yet. The only strange thing was there

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Speaker 2: was some black marks around his neck. So the original

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Speaker 2: thought was maybe he had gone for a swim, had

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Speaker 2: a heart attack, or something had sucked him underwater and

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Speaker 2: he'd gotten kind of banged along the bottom of the

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Speaker 2: canal and that's where the bruising came from.

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Speaker 1: Are there mechanisms inside canals? Is there some sort of

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Speaker 1: machinery that there could have done that?

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Speaker 2: There are floodgates. It's all gravity fed. There's actually no

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Speaker 2: mechanical moving parts. It's all just gravity fed. But there

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Speaker 2: are gates, you know, funnels and stuff like that that

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Speaker 2: you can get sucked into. I wouldn't recommend swimming in

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Speaker 2: the canals.

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Speaker 3: It's not safe.

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Speaker 2: Although it's funny, you know, they do actually still have

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Speaker 2: pictures of people water skiing down the canals. That was

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Speaker 2: apparently a popular activity. You would get towed behind a

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Speaker 2: car that drove along the canal and you would water

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Speaker 2: ski along the canal. So I don't know if he

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Speaker 2: was trying that, but the police recalled the sheriff. They

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Speaker 2: tracked upstream and found his brand new nineteen twenty one

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Speaker 2: Dodge Brothers touring sedan parked on the side of the

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Speaker 2: road underneath a willow tree. It's fancy, very fancy. They

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Speaker 2: found his evening clothes. They found his shoes set along

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Speaker 2: the side of the canal.

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Speaker 1: So it does sound like he went for a swim.

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Speaker 3: It does.

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Speaker 2: And his clothes were all folded neatly and placed along

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Speaker 2: the front of the back seats of the car. And

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Speaker 2: it just seemed like a tragic accident or someone had

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Speaker 2: gone for a swim.

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Speaker 1: Where are we in his life? Is he in his thirties?

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Speaker 1: Is he fit? Kind of give me a sense of who.

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Speaker 2: Early early thirties apparently relatively handsome, just known as quite

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Speaker 2: a man about town. He was best friends with the

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Speaker 2: publisher of the local newspaper. He moved back and forth

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Speaker 2: between Chicago. He was out in la for a while,

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Speaker 2: he was in Phoenix. He had some business down in Tucson,

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Speaker 2: Mover shaker, Mover and shaker for nineteen twenty two.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and now he's dead in a canal.

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Speaker 2: And now he's dead in a canal, And so the

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Speaker 2: police started investigating. The first thing that's suspicious is they

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Speaker 2: do the autopsy and find out there's no water in

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Speaker 2: his lungs. What does that mean he was strangled? Is

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Speaker 2: what they determined. There's a bone in the neck that

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Speaker 2: can get broken when you're strangled, and that was broken,

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Speaker 2: and based on the bruising, they quickly determined that he

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Speaker 2: had been killed and then thrown in the canal. He

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Speaker 2: also had some scrapes up and down his legs like

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Speaker 2: he'd been dragged, some post mortem scrapes. That's when the

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Speaker 2: heart stops beating, so the wounds don't bleed, So that's

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Speaker 2: one way they can tell that the wounds happened after death.

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Speaker 2: So the best guess was that he was dragged and

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Speaker 2: tossed in the canal, and then someone arranged all of

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Speaker 2: his clothes and parked his car to make it look

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Speaker 2: like he'd just gone for a swim.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a lot of preparation.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, this was not an accident.

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Speaker 1: So then there's the book. Where is the book found? Again?

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Speaker 2: The next kind of bombshell that dropped is while they

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Speaker 2: were going through his possessions, they found a little black book,

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Speaker 2: kind of an address book, very fancy, ornate, leather bound

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Speaker 2: business book. The numbers vary, but the numbers I've read

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Speaker 2: is approximately one hundred names in there, mostly females, and

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Speaker 2: twenty two of them were identifiable as very well known

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Speaker 2: society women. Twenty one of them were married, and almost

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Speaker 2: all of them had notes next to the names, such

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Speaker 2: as husband works, days, only call it night.

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Speaker 3: So naturally that aroused some suspicion.

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Speaker 1: He didn't rank them or anything, not that we know of,

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Speaker 1: which I know happens not.

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Speaker 3: Do we know of.

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Speaker 2: Although one of the things that again I haven't been

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Speaker 2: able to nail down is they also talk about apparently

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Speaker 2: there might have been some photos tucked into the book.

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Speaker 3: Some steamy, very u X rated photos.

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Speaker 1: Traditionally a cop would want to start small, like in

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Speaker 1: his inner circle. So the wife, even if she's back

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Speaker 1: east or wherever she is, and then move outward business associates.

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Speaker 1: Do they just jump right into this book? Do they

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Speaker 1: think it's what? Do they think it's like a mad husband?

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Speaker 2: Well, not only that the police jumped into it, but

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Speaker 2: this is what's so interesting about newspapers at the time.

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Speaker 2: They printed the address and names of every single person.

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Speaker 2: You can go to the La Times archives from nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty two in October and they literally have ever I

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Speaker 2: think it was thirty women in LA and they list

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Speaker 2: all of their names, addresses, and then their attempts to

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Speaker 2: contact them.

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Speaker 3: We went to the door and knocked, no one answered.

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Speaker 2: This woman said that she'd done tax business with him

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Speaker 2: and had no idea that he was involved in anything else.

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Speaker 1: They literally that's public shaming.

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Speaker 3: All of that information. Isn't that wild?

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Speaker 1: Why are they doing that? Does that fall under in

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Speaker 1: the interest of public information? Or is that a way

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Speaker 1: for them to pressure, you know, some of these women

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Speaker 1: and giving them more information.

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Speaker 2: I think it was a little bit of both. You know,

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Speaker 2: obviously it was a very male oriented business at the time.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure these weren't female reporters going to knock on

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Speaker 2: the doors.

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Speaker 3: It was yes.

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Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting is, originally his death was on page

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Speaker 2: twelve of the local paper. It wasn't even front page news.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of tucked between preparations or full scale

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Speaker 2: for the nineteen twenty two State Fair and the weekly

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Speaker 2: report from the Cattle Growers Association. It was not It

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Speaker 2: was just considered a tragic accident. Yeah, And within a

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Speaker 2: month after the salacious details started to come out, it

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Speaker 2: was front page news and the La Times. I've read

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Speaker 2: coverage from Buffalo, New York, Lincoln, Nebraska, El Paso. It

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Speaker 2: literally became front page news. I think just because it

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Speaker 2: was so silatious, there were so many details. And this

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Speaker 2: is also the time when the telegraph had come and

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Speaker 2: the wire services, and so you start to see a

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Speaker 2: lot of the articles are basically regurgitations of the same

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Speaker 2: facts and quotes, just kind of localized a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And we know, of course that the Hurst papers are

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Speaker 1: leading the charge pretty much everywhere for salatious headlines.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was just yours this, well, here's my

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Speaker 2: favorite headline. This is the the Buffalo Evening Times Arecober

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Speaker 2: twenty seventh, nineteen twenty two, the headline twenty two Dames

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Speaker 2: of Society dragged into sordid limelight through mysterious murder of

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Speaker 2: gay lothario out in Arizona, and of course gay at

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Speaker 2: the time being more kind of carefree, immoral bachelor fash

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Speaker 2: It basically implies a man, you know who has relations

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Speaker 2: with lots of women, which is ironic now considering the

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Speaker 2: way that the.

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Speaker 3: Term has changed.

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Speaker 2: That's a headline that was the front page headlines of

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Speaker 2: the Buffalo Evening Time splashed in.

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Speaker 1: There's about nine words in there that I think would

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Speaker 1: fall into pretty much any lurid story today.

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Speaker 5: And then right, they know how to get your attention absolutely,

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Speaker 5: and again there's literally no connection with Buffalo, New York

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Speaker 5: other than just the fact that this is an exciting,

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Speaker 5: interesting story that I'm sure their readers wanted to hear about.

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Speaker 1: So what did the cops learn from these women? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what is the Are they building any kind of a

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Speaker 1: picture of this guy anymore than they already knew just

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Speaker 1: his professional reputation.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of the of the hundred names, as

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Speaker 2: I mentioned, a lot of them seem to be business associates.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously he worked in the tax business, and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure was constantly trying to make contacts, and you know,

290
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Speaker 2: it's a bit of a obviously his social climber, so

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Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of them were just honestly, you know,

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Speaker 2: business notebooks. But then yeah, over time, as they interviewed

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Speaker 2: more and more of his friends, they found out as

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Speaker 2: the secretary of the Phoenix Country Club, the former secretary.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting is a year before he had mysteriously quit

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Speaker 2: the Phoenix Country Club, packed up and moved to Los Angeles,

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Speaker 2: and police later learned while he was out there, he

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Speaker 2: told people that if he went back to Phoenix he

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Speaker 2: would probably be killed, and it was because he was

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Speaker 2: in love with He called her a widow. Apparently that

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Speaker 2: was his term for any prospective date. As they put it,

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Speaker 2: he'd like to go on Petticoat hunts. This terminology. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you can't make these things up.

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Speaker 1: That's turn of the century skirt chaser, I think absolutelynts Okay?

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Speaker 1: Were they able to figure out who that woman was

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Speaker 1: with the husband who was irate? Were assuming?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I was not able to.

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Speaker 2: Neither I nor the police at the time was able

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Speaker 2: to definitively nail someone down, but kind of before it

310
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Speaker 2: slid off the front pages. They said they had it

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Speaker 2: down to two suspects. If you poke around online, there's

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Speaker 2: a former FBI agent who wrote a screenplay and he

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Speaker 2: basically he has put the name out there who he

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Speaker 2: thinks the suspect was, and it was It was a gentleman,

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Speaker 2: very well connected here in town.

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Speaker 3: His father was a judge.

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Speaker 2: Apparently it was his wife, him and his wife who

318
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Speaker 2: were involved with sinking the Love Pirate.

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Speaker 1: And why did they call him the love Pirate?

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Speaker 2: They referred to his black book as his Harem List,

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Speaker 2: and that just was kind of the catchy name. They

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Speaker 2: called him Phoenix's Love Pirate. Literally, if you look across

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Speaker 2: the headlines, it's, you know, like I said, Phoenix's Love

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Speaker 2: Pirate involved with Harem List and the millionaire set is

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Speaker 2: going to be shaken to its foundation. I mean, they

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Speaker 2: really loved their dramatic terminology.

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Speaker 1: He had no kids and they were divorced, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he did have the wife back in Chicago. His

329
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Speaker 2: brother was interviewed a lot and was kind of his

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Speaker 2: staunchest advocate, and his mother was still alive and she

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Speaker 2: actually hired Pinkerton detectives to come out here and investigate.

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Speaker 3: So the family must have had some money.

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Speaker 1: Some money absolutely, So what did the brothers say about

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Speaker 1: this whole situation? I mean, I'm assuming there is a

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Speaker 1: group of readers who was saying, if you miss with

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Speaker 1: somebody's wife, what do you expect it's going to happen

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Speaker 1: to you?

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Speaker 3: Right, kind of frontier justice, well.

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Speaker 1: Less empathy for somebody like that. Did the brother say

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Speaker 1: something different?

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Speaker 2: He literally said, look, my brother didn't have no wings,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't deserve what happened to him, and he

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Speaker 2: was not the serial cad that they make him out

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Speaker 2: to be. And his wife also defended him as well,

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Speaker 2: So I said he was a home body. They strictly

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Speaker 2: divorced because she didn't want to live in Phoenix in.

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Speaker 1: His dealings with business and this being prohibition. Did the

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Speaker 1: cops entertain the idea at all that this was mob

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Speaker 1: related or drug related or rum runners or anything.

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think at first that was kind of the

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Speaker 2: natural inclination once they started looking for a murderer versus

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Speaker 2: a tragic accident, was to blame outside influences, rum runners,

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Speaker 2: you know, all of these kind.

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Speaker 4: Of easy scapegoats figures. Yes, those are the best figures, right, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think just the more they dug and the more

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Speaker 4: they found out, it started leading back further and further

358
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Speaker 4: to the Phoenix Country Club and these pajama parties, as

359
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 4: they put it, So.

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Speaker 1: The pajama parties, what was that.

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Speaker 2: They started interviewing and finding out again. As kind of

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Speaker 2: the secretary of the Phoenix Country Club, he was involved

363
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Speaker 2: with a lot of the social events, and so I

364
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 2: have some great quotes here about the pajama parties that

365
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 2: they used to host. This is actually a detective Bell

366
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Speaker 2: from the Phoenix Police Department, Darnie the dead Man. He

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Speaker 2: used to stage pajama parties among the younger set of

368
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Speaker 2: married and single folks. They were mighty popular too among

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Speaker 2: the smarter and swifter crowd. Several people that I've talked

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Speaker 2: to have told me that it was rather a fad

371
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Speaker 2: to trade wives on these occasions. Jarney had been divorced,

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Speaker 2: so he was neither single nor married, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: And I'm told he played the whole field. And that's

374
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Speaker 2: a quote from a detective in the newspaper for Amazing

375
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Speaker 2: how libel laws have changed.

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Speaker 1: Really, you know, this guy doesn't think that the details

377
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Speaker 1: of his personal life were ever going to be printed

378
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Speaker 1: and now we know everything. It's really disturbing to know that.

379
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Speaker 1: So the closest the cops got was to the gentleman

380
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Speaker 1: that you're talking.

381
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Speaker 2: About, correct, They got quite descriptive with it. So basically

382
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Speaker 2: he was last scene. He was scheduled to meet his friend,

383
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Speaker 2: so he was living in Los Angeles. He came back

384
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Speaker 2: to Phoenix. He's actually sent a letter to his mother

385
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Speaker 2: saying he was going to go back to Phoenix to

386
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Speaker 2: start a new business venture, very excited about it. The

387
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,959
Speaker 2: letter apparently arrived at the same time as the telegram

388
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,080
Speaker 2: informing her that he had been killed. They arrived within

389
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 2: hours of each other. That's how the difference between mail

390
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 2: and the telegram. So he was only here for a

391
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 2: couple days, he stated, at a very nice hotel downtown Phoenix,

392
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Speaker 2: because he had left town and was scheduled to have

393
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Speaker 2: lunch with a good friend of his who was actually

394
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 2: the publisher of the local Phoenix Gazette newspaper. At the

395
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Speaker 2: last minute, he was at the country club and he said, oh,

396
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Speaker 2: you know what, I'll have to cancel.

397
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Speaker 3: I'm off to see a widow. I'm going to have

398
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Speaker 3: a date with a widow.

399
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Speaker 2: And so at twelve or five pm, he left in

400
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Speaker 2: his Dodge brother's touring car that he'd driven over from

401
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 2: Los Angeles. About an hour and a half later, he

402
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 2: was found floating in the canal, so there was not

403
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 2: a large gap of time there. They quickly were able

404
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 2: to eliminate a lot of suspects just based on the

405
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 2: fact that clearly had to happen within an hour and

406
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 2: a half. He had obviously gone off to meet someone,

407
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 2: and so their theory quickly centered on the fact that

408
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,959
Speaker 2: one of the wives and probably her husband, set him up,

409
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 2: which is why he was in pajamas. Theory was that

410
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 2: he was called over for a rendezvous with this widow,

411
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 2: probably the same woman who he had been dating and

412
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,959
Speaker 2: had been threatened and told to leave town, but he

413
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 2: just apparently was quite obsessed with his wife, even mentioned

414
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 2: that he'd been dating someone. He again called her a widow,

415
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 2: but said that he didn't want to marry her because

416
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,159
Speaker 2: she was much wealthier than him, and that he assumed

417
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,719
Speaker 2: that people think he was a piker, someone just looking

418
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 2: to marry into wealth. So that's what he had told

419
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 2: his wife. That's as far as his wife knew. But

420
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 2: again he'd confessed to friends that if I go back

421
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 2: to Phoenix and see this woman again, I'll probably be killed.

422
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 2: But yet he did it here. He was last minute.

423
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 2: He jumped in his car and went off. Their theory

424
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 2: was that he went in the house and the husband

425
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 2: must have been parked around the corner or hiding, or

426
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 2: he undressed, and then at some point the husband must

427
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 2: have jumped out and confronted him and choked him out

428
00:20:50,200 --> 00:21:08,520
Speaker 2: and strangled him.

429
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Speaker 1: The strangling part's really interesting to me because it's such

430
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 1: an intimate way of killing somebody. So, yes, you would

431
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: think it was somebody who was very angry. There are

432
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,360
Speaker 1: easier ways to kill someone.

433
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 2: For sure, absolutely absolutely, and to do it yourself as well.

434
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 2: I would assume that you would not outsource strangling someone

435
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 2: in your in your wife's bedroom.

436
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 1: So do they think at this point or at any

437
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 1: point that the wife is involved with this plot?

438
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 3: And they must she set the honeypot, She was the trap.

439
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: You again, these these male detectives in there, you know, Yes, yeah,

440
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: that's what they called it.

441
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, And why would she do that? The husband just said, listen,

442
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 1: this is over. If you want to stay married to me,

443
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: this is what's going to have to happen.

444
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: Well, according to police, the suspect, and you know I

445
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 2: can mention who other people have named. According to police

446
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: that their top suspect was a gentleman named.

447
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 3: Guy also Guy Alsop.

448
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 2: He was the son of a local judge pioneering family,

449
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 2: very well connected. He was famously hot headed, famously large

450
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 2: and strong, would have the ability to choke another mail

451
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: out without much of a struggle. He choked him out,

452
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 2: put the deceased man in his trunk, and then drove

453
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: from downtown Phoenix the nine miles out to the canal, parked,

454
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 2: dragged the body, threw it in the canal because they

455
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: found some tire tracks and some scrape marks that looked

456
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 2: fitting of what they saw the scrape marks on the

457
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: man's legs the deceased man and then drove that showed

458
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: he was dragged, dragged, but again post death. Cassie Alsop

459
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,360
Speaker 2: followed her husband in the dead man's car. So after

460
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: they'd thrown the body in the canal, they then parked

461
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 2: it underneath a willow tree and carefully arranged his shoes,

462
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: his fancy evening shoes, right there along the canal bank,

463
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: and folded up all of his clothes. What's interesting the

464
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: only physical evidence they found is folded among the clothes

465
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: was a piece of hannahed hair, woman's long they assume

466
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: a woman because it had Hannah hair dyeing in and

467
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 2: it was long. And the police actually kept that into

468
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: safe because I said it was their one piece of evidence.

469
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: I never saw anything about whether Cassie Alsop dyed her.

470
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 3: Hair with Hannah.

471
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 2: I again think that might have helped them narrow in

472
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 2: on the suspects.

473
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: And was her name in his book Cassie's name?

474
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: She was, Yes, she was one of the twenty one

475
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 2: local married society women who immediately their husbands became the

476
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 2: number one suspects and through a process of elimination, apparently

477
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: they narrated in the newspaper announced they narrowed it down

478
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 2: to three, and then it was down to two, and

479
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, it just kind of started

480
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 2: to fade and fall off the headlines. And so he

481
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: was murdered in September, September twelfth. The real frenzy hit

482
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: in October, and then the last time he's mentioned is

483
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: in December when they have divvied up his estate valued about.

484
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 3: Fifteen hundred dollars.

485
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: When I counch the numbers was about twenty five thousand

486
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: dollars today, not very much, not significant, not worth killing

487
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: someone else.

488
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: Not a successful businessman would have squirrelled away. But let's

489
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: not judge. So what was the next step. Did this

490
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: all fall apart? If there was even a case against guy,

491
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: the killing her guy because he's well connected, Is that

492
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: what you're thinking.

493
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that seemed to be the implication, and so that's

494
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 2: also why the family hired private detectives. They didn't believe

495
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 2: the Arizona authorities would would go after someone so powerful

496
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 2: and politically connected. In fact, the governor actually had to

497
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 2: hold a press conference had announced that he was not

498
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: squelching the investigation because that had been written up in

499
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 2: the press. Basically, the brother had declared in the press,

500
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: you know, I'm pretty sure that this goes all the

501
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: way up to the governor's office and he's squelching the investigation.

502
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: So the governor had to come back the next day

503
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: and have a press conference and say, I have no

504
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 2: connection to this investigation. We're going to follow wherever it

505
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: leads to. Clearly it was already in the air.

506
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: Wow.

507
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: In the end, do we know what happens with the

508
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: supposed killer and his wife, Cassie.

509
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 2: He continued living here in Phoenix, was never charged with

510
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: any crimes, continued to live a relatively quiet life. What's

511
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 2: interesting is the reason his name is out there that

512
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: the former FBI agent who wrote the screenplay actually kind

513
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 2: of implied that he was one of Phoenix's first serial

514
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: killers because he thinks that he might have been involved

515
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: in a couple of other killings here.

516
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 3: He was partners with a gentleman.

517
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: They owned a barnstorming baseball club here in Arizona, kind

518
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 2: of fought.

519
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 3: They weren't very happy partners.

520
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: And then one day that gentleman fell off the train

521
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 2: when they were on their way to go visit another town.

522
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: But the implication was always said he'd pushed him off

523
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: the train. Yeah, and then he was also the number

524
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: one suspect. About seven years after the first murder in

525
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: the canal, an FBI agent in Phoenix ended up drowning

526
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 2: in the same canal they actually found when they called

527
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: him out of Connell, they found he.

528
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 3: Had a shot through his heart.

529
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: And we're talking about that story now, yes, and we're

530
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: going to assume there's no happy ending for that story.

531
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: Also, it's actually the only unsolved murder of an FBI

532
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: agent in US history.

533
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: So now let's switch gears from the Love Pirate to

534
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: a fed found floating in the Phoenix Canal. Right, this

535
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: happens in nineteen twenty nine. Yes, so seven years of progressed.

536
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: We haven't solved the first case. The Prohibition continues to

537
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: torture the United States as well as the cops trying

538
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: to keep up with enforcing it.

539
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 3: And now a great depression is barreling.

540
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: Not a great time, nineteen twenty nine, it's not a

541
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: great year. So we are now coming into another body

542
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: in a different canal.

543
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: Right, actually the same canal, it's a different, different stretch

544
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: of the canal, a little further. It floated. He floated further.

545
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: He was missing for a couple of days. Actually, whereas

546
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: the first gentleman had only been in the canal for

547
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: about an hour and a half, he'd been in the

548
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: canal for almost three days.

549
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: So pretty bloated. Did they even identify him at the

550
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 1: beginning of this?

551
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 2: They did because number one, he was missing, and number two,

552
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: despite it being hot at the time, he was wearing

553
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: his three piece suit. He apparently never went anywhere without

554
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 2: his full three piece suit. So when there was a

555
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: federal agent missing, there was a citywide man hunt, and

556
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: then they found a water logged buddy in a three

557
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: piece suit. They were pretty sure they had the right man,

558
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: had found out what his fate was.

559
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: Who is this guy? Who is this agent?

560
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 3: Sure?

561
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: His name is Paul Reynolds. He was from I believe, Idaho.

562
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: He was a preacher's son. Classic story. This is actually

563
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: before it was officially known as the FBI.

564
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 3: It was the US Bureau of.

565
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: Investigation, and it had a thirty four year old director

566
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: named Jay Edgar Hoover, and people might be familiar with

567
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 2: He had just taken over a few years back and

568
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: was in the process of building the FBI into what

569
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: we think of today. And so they didn't even have

570
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: an office here in Phoenix. It was such a small town.

571
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: Like I said, it was about fifty zousand people at

572
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: the time, but it had a big prohibition or a

573
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: big rum running problem. Being close to Mexico, obviously you've.

574
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: Got rum runners, and you have Paul Reynolds here. He

575
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: came from El Paso.

576
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: Right correct. That was the closest FBI field office. There's

577
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 3: still a high rise, a.

578
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: Beautiful building called the Lures Building downtown and that was

579
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: where the prohibition offices were. And so there's a famous

580
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: story that every time they would bust and catch a

581
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: big batch of illegal booze, they would do a big

582
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: dramatic press conference and they would smash it, and they'd

583
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 2: come and get the pictures of them pouring it down

584
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: the drain. There were actually people in the building who

585
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: would run downstairs and capture all of the booze and

586
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: then rebottle it and sell it again.

587
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: It was Renolds. What was his specialty.

588
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: He was a very dogged investigator. He was young, but

589
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,479
Speaker 2: he was an up and coming agent. He was very

590
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: well known in town. He was known as a snappy dresser.

591
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: He would always rent a room. He had kind of

592
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: a permanent room on hold because he would stay here

593
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: for up to nine months at a time. Would be

594
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: based here, travel down to Tucson, travel down to Nogalis,

595
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: which is our major border city. Mostly based here and

596
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: had a room with the Hotel Adams, which was the

597
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: nicest hotel in town. He was very well known, much

598
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: similar to our previous victim. He got in with the

599
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: in crowd. He was very popular with local police. On

600
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: the night he went missing. He was actually had rented

601
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: a car and was leaving to drive over to Glendo,

602
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,239
Speaker 2: which is a small city west of here, to go

603
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: swimming at the country estate of a friend, a friend

604
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: who had a home in the town but also had

605
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: a large farmhouse and a big country estate with the

606
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 2: swimming pool, so he was taking advantage of his connections

607
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: to go cool off.

608
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: As far as we know right now, Paul Reynolds is

609
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: do good or he's a good investigator. He's solid. But

610
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: as we know, after people die, we find out things.

611
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: And as far as we know, the cops find the

612
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: body and he's drowned.

613
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: Well, it didn't take long, unlike the previous case where

614
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: they actually had to wait for the autopsy results. When

615
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: they pulled him out of the canal, they quickly noticed

616
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: he had a bullet hole right through his heart, and

617
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: so immediately the town was completely swarmed with investigators. Jay

618
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: Edgar Hoover personally sent his top investigator from Washington, d C.

619
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: Out to investigate the crime. It's one of those it's

620
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: only matter times before the police cracked this. They have

621
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: literally put the entire resources of the federal government into

622
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: cracking this murder. In a tiny small town. The assumption

623
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: was that he had been murdered by rum runners. The

624
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: newspaper was filled with, oh, his briefcase is missing, and

625
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: it was apparently filled with arrest warrants for some of

626
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,959
Speaker 2: the valley's top citizens who were illicitly involved in rum running.

627
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: There were lots of headlines about pardon Mills, which is

628
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: apparently high profile politicians would kind of pardon and kind

629
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: of look the other way if you were arrested. So

630
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: that was the implication, was that he was about to

631
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: crack a case of a bunch of correct, exact corruption

632
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: that extended right up to the top. And so you know,

633
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: of course everybody was on pins and needles waiting to

634
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: find out what he was investigating. Clearly had been something

635
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: they'd gotten the jump on him, they had shot him

636
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: in in the midst of doing an undercover investigation. You

637
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: know that the town was just a twitter with talking about, Oh,

638
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: what was he working on? What was the case? What

639
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: could have been so exciting that he got murdered over it?

640
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, because there are so many possibilities with a federal agent.

641
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and like I said, just the lack of information

642
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: that the rumors got very far ahead of the news.

643
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: Of course, his briefcase was found days later. It didn't

644
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: have arrest once he had given it to a friend

645
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: to watch. He was not actively doing an investigation that evening.

646
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: He's literally just going over to cool off and swim,

647
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: you know, So a lot of the initial excitement was

648
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: all quickly shot down and you were left with this

649
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: very mysterious case of this gentleman who ended up shot

650
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: in a canal. And then the really unique thing is

651
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: they did, of course, launched a citywide search for his car,

652
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: because he had rented this car. He was found drowning

653
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: a canal, and you go, okay, well, did the bad

654
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: guy drive off in his car? That was kind of

655
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: the thought originally the police announced the working theory was

656
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: that he had been forced off off the road while

657
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: driving down Central Avenue and had been shot and then

658
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: thrown into the canal at Central Avenue Bridge, and then

659
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: they had driven his car away.

660
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: That sounds like mobsters almost, it really does.

661
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: It sounds like a bad movie.

662
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: It took about twenty four hours, but at midnight a

663
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: patrolman walking his rounds found the car.

664
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: And what's really interesting.

665
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: About is was parked at the hotel right around the

666
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: corner from where he'd rented it, where he stayed, and

667
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: they searched the car. They found a suspicious stain on

668
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: the rear fender, which turned out to be fruit juice.

669
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: They searched the whole.

670
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: Car and didn't find any signs of blood or disturbances.

671
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: And the really strange thing is there were no fingerprints,

672
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: like the car had been wiped down. Even they couldn't

673
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: even find his fingerprints on the car. And number two,

674
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: there were twenty seven unexplained miles on the odometer, so

675
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: clearly he'd gone somewhere or someone had gone somewhere in

676
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: the car before they'd parked it back at the hotel.

677
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: I knew where he was staying in the spot, and

678
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: all absolutely, yeah, well that's an amateur hour wiping down

679
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: so much of the fingerprints that you wipe out the

680
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: ones who were supposed to be there.

681
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: And so then that's when they announced the theory that

682
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: you know, oh well, clearly, when he'd been pulled over,

683
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: they must have then driven his car back wearing gloves

684
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: and parked it to kind of be a misdirection, so

685
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: no one could figure out exactly what happened.

686
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: So that that was the working theory.

687
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: This is planned and organized, and it seems unemotional, which

688
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: seems sort of different than your other case, you know,

689
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: with the different part of the canal.

690
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, this is not a hot blooded murder. This was

691
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: clearly planned. It was a hit, yes, and so of

692
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: course everyone thought, well, what's he working on? Who is investigating?

693
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: Got in over his head? He was about to crack something.

694
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: Clearly there must be some big scandal behind it. The

695
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: federal agents came swarming into town and it was headline

696
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: news and then just kind of faded. And what's interesting

697
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: is the local police announced their theory, but the Feds

698
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: never did.

699
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 3: They never announced anything.

700
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: They actually never announced the results of their investigation. And

701
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: to this day he's the only unsolved murder of an

702
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: agent in US history. He's on their Wall of fame,

703
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: and they have just kind of a blandly factual epitaph

704
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 2: which has despite a thorough and intensive investigation, we never

705
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 2: figured out who killed him, and the FBI just left

706
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 2: it that, which is very strange, you know, if we

707
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: hadn't seen the kind of leave just open ends, or

708
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: even to just announce the investigation rather than just to

709
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: kind of pack up and move on so.

710
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: Again a little conspiracy.

711
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: Maybe everyone had their theories, but it it just slowly

712
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: faded from the radar screens and it was kind of

713
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 2: almost never spoken of again until the nineteen seventies, which

714
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: is when something interesting happened, which is Jagar Hooper died

715
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: and then the wall started to crack. And so about

716
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 2: a year afterwards, there was a retired FBI agent who

717
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: was interviewed in the local paper here and he basically

718
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: revealed that the FBI had known for years Agent Reynolds

719
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: had not been murdered. He'd actually committed suicide, and the

720
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: FBI was so embarrassed by what they found, including the

721
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: he was a serial skirt chaser, he had gone arihea,

722
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: very painful, untreated gonerihea. He had bought a five thousand

723
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: dollars life insurance policy a few months before he was

724
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 2: murdered quote unquote murdered, And so the FBI basically had

725
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 2: figured out that he had committed suicide and staged it

726
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: to look like a murder so his wife would inherit

727
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: the money. Jat Hoover was personally so worried about the

728
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: embarrassment that he ordered it swept under the road that

729
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: actually makes sense with his fledgling agency, and you know

730
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: they were super investigators, they were superman And how to

731
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: look if one of them had one been a serial

732
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: skirt chaser, a drinker in the middle of prohibition.

733
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: Well, come on, I mean, I would guess in the

734
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: FBI you could probably throw a rock and hit one

735
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: of them. But you're right, public perception.

736
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: Public perception was that, yes, there were these morally uptight

737
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 2: son of preachers demon absolutely if he.

738
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: Had untreated gonerriea.

739
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: Yes, apparently very painful.

740
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: But then of course the question becomes, well, how did

741
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: his car get back to the hotel? And that was

742
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: kind of just this left out there hanging, And so

743
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: I kept digging. I was reading through the historical record.

744
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: I was reading that it was called the Arizona Republican.

745
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: It was the big paper in town. It's now the

746
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: Arizona Republic. And so I was reading there write up

747
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: about his final day and all the people who'd seen

748
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: him there at the hotel, atoms and taking notes and

749
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 2: dressed in his ever present three piece sued and had

750
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: done his usual rounds, and nothing seemed to miss. So

751
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 2: I'm reading this newspaper and I happened to notice that

752
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: there's an ad for a bus service that runs every

753
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes. It's called the Central Avenue Bus and it

754
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: runs a round trip from the hotel Atoms to the

755
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: Central Avenue Canal.

756
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: A walk from that bus stop to the canal where

757
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: he went right there.

758
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: Right there.

759
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: Well there you go.

760
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, door to door service.

761
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: It's so hard to think that somebody would do that.

762
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: That still just seems So he shot himself in the

763
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: heart and.

764
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: Then on the bridge and then fell into and fell

765
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 2: into the water.

766
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: Why was it so important for him to cover up

767
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: a suicide and to make it look like murder for

768
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: the insurance money.

769
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 3: For the insurance money.

770
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he was killed in the line of duty,

771
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: and so he got all the full benefits. They were

772
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 2: apparently a strange but not divorced him and his wife,

773
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: and so she got the full benefits of being a

774
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: widow of a slain federal agent and got the benefits

775
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: of his new life insurance policy. None were the wiser.

776
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 2: For a good fifty years, no one except the FBI

777
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: knew the real story.

778
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: Wow, that's an incredible story. And the suspect from your

779
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: first case was briefly a suspect in this case.

780
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 3: That's correct.

781
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're the skirt chasing element assuming game.

782
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so a lot of this came out.

783
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 2: Another retired investigator sued the FBI for access to the

784
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: case file. They had claimed it had burned in a fire.

785
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: They claimed that in a lawsuit, and then he sued

786
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: them because he was he knew that it wasn't and

787
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: was able to prove it in core, and they had

788
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: to give him access to the case file. Now he

789
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: hasn't shared that information he's not legally allowed to, but

790
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: he was given access to it to write his book.

791
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 3: The book never came out.

792
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: Which is interesting, but all of his notes and his

793
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 2: theories are out there, and one of his theories is

794
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: that the main suspect in both of these cases was

795
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: one of Phoenix's first serial killers, Guy also very hot headed,

796
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: large and strong, powerful, jealous apparently, so this former agent's

797
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: theory was that, yeah, he had murdered Guy Darnier and

798
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: thrown him in the canal for having an affair with

799
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 2: his wife. He was apparently one of the first people

800
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: that the FBI looked at when they came to town

801
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: to investigate the Paul Reynolds murder. Clearly the local police

802
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: must have known this is a guy you want to

803
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: look at, oh boy, even though they didn't share that

804
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: with the public. But yeah, they clearly shared that with

805
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: their fellow investigators.

806
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: But he was cleared. And I had asked you this before.

807
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: But do Cassie and Guy end up like having kids

808
00:38:59,120 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: do things? Sort of?

809
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 6: Yeah?

810
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 3: I just continued on.

811
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: You know he I think he lived until the late forties.

812
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: He didn't live a very long life, but was never

813
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: charged with the crime, was never held accountable if he

814
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: did do any of these actions. He just continued to

815
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 2: live a life of the judge's son and the socially connected,

816
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: you know, the baseball fan.

817
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: There are these two theories in the murder of Paul Reynolds.

818
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: There's the suicide and the FBI stamped out the case

819
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: because of embarrassment and this man, and then there is

820
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: this very jealous husband who shot and killed him. Which

821
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: theory makes the most sense to you.

822
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 2: I do think Paul Reynolds committed suicide. I think that

823
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: is pretty clear, mostly by the way the FBI handled it.

824
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: I wrote an article about it for Phoenix Magazine and

825
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: I asked for a comment, and they, not surprisingly, never

826
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: got back to me.

827
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: So, you know what I think is interesting about the

828
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: both of these stories is these are not only two

829
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: men who were killed but went unsolved, and not only unsolved,

830
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: but just sort of of kind of who cares after

831
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: a while, which to me seems very unusual considering these

832
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: are two very prominent people in their own worlds. So

833
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: is that the time period or.

834
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: And it was a very small town at the time too.

835
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it's wild to think that, yeah, someone's great

836
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: grandparents got away with murder, and you know, they still

837
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: got to be members of the Phoenix Country Club and

838
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: still got to live the life of high society. And

839
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: you know what's interesting about Phoenix is it's number one.

840
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: It's a very young town. It's older than you think.

841
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: As we mentioned the roots of it at least it

842
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 2: goes back to a prehistoric Native American farming civilization where

843
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 2: it was basically built upon those ruins. It is a

844
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: very young town, and yet it's now the fifth largest

845
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: city in the nation. You don't get that big that

846
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: fast without cutting a lot of corners, without a lot

847
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: of land.

848
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: Fraud fast tracking thing.

849
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 2: In Phoenix, the line between politician and criminal, it's been

850
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: pretty blurry back then. If you could make things happen,

851
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: you became a member of high society.

852
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: It didn't matter how.

853
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: You got there. Kingmakers, really, that's right. Yeah, And this

854
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: is a place where people came to start over. It

855
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: didn't matter where you went to school. You didn't have

856
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 2: to know the right people. There was certainly an old

857
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: boys club, but even the old boys club is very

858
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: new here. You could come and reinvent yourself, go from

859
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: working at Montgomery Wards to being the secretary of the

860
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: Phoenix Country Club and being in charge of the swinging

861
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: pajama parties of the social set.

862
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 1: No thank you on the next episode of Wicked Words.

863
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 6: Most of the time women know they're victims. They're mad

864
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 6: about something that happened, and not just wanting to exercise power.

865
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 6: And I don't think that that's the case here. She

866
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 6: didn't have just one mo she didn't have just one

867
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 6: victim profile. It's just an important thing to pay attention to,

868
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 6: because who's to say that that's not more common than.

869
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

870
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has

871
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more media production. Alexis and

872
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer. Andrew Epan is our sound designer.

873
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. Curtis Heath does

874
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink

875
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen

876
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

877
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878
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,360
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879
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880
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00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email

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Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe and

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Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple, podcas Cast, Stitcher, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah,