WEBVTT - Ep. 314: Confessions of a Former Outlaw 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.119 I had it explained to me one time by a 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:12.760 judge in court. Not hunting seemed like I had killed 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:17.520 a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.639 why did you do that? I said, well, where I'm from, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.920 when your tomatoes get right, you pick them. When your 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.120 potatoes get right, you dig them. When your turkeys are right, 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.920 you go get you on. Yeah. But he said, that's 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.479 not the way we do it. You have laws at 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.080 govern when you kill them and when you can. But 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:40.519 he explained that to me. 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.680 I traveled a couple of hours south and slightly west 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.040 from my home on Wednesday, March twenty sixth, twenty twenty five, 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.800 to meet with a man who I was told might 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:57.680 be the most interesting man in Lafleur County, Oklahoma. I 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.160 hardly knew anything about him, in all though I talked 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:03.800 to people for a living. While I was in my truck, 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.680 and when I got within about two miles of his cabin, 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.520 I started to get nervous. He was described to me 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.200 as a kind man, loved by those who know him, 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.000 but with a checkered past and an uncanny expertise in 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.920 wild turkeys. Why he'd agreed to talk with me, I 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.920 wasn't sure, and I began to doubt why I had 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:29.959 agreed to come. This is real rural America, not the 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.200 curated version that I sometimes like to talk about. This 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:39.800 one has addiction, illegal hunting, and broken relationships. But I 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:44.040 had no idea I'd be impacted so much. This is 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:48.600 an unusual Bear Grease, dark at times, funny at others, 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:54.000 but I was surprised at the arc of redemption. You'll 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.680 have to forgive me because I'm still sorting out the details, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.520 but I'd like to share with you the confession of 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.160 this former outlaw. I really doubt that you're going to 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:15.680 want to miss this one. My name is Clay Nukem, 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.320 and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:24.120 things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.839 and where we'll tell the story of Americans who live 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.919 their lives close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear, 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:38.160 American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear as designed 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.919 to be as rugged as the place as we explore. 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.720 I had a friend, and people that hunt know When 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:57.600 Ben Rogers Lee Ben Lee world Champion caller hunter good 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:02.960 friend being got killed in a vehicle accident, he was 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.960 at my turkey camp. We hunted the first part of Caeson, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:08.480 and he tried to give me to quit and go 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.480 with him to Alabama. He said, you like this game, 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:14.760 You're good at it. I see it in you. I 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.280 see potential in you. You need to quit what you're 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.440 doing and go with me, and I ah make you 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:27.120 famous and me rich. And I said, no, I can't quit. Well, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.200 O God, I've got a good job, good family, got cattle. 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:31.000 I can't do that. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.640 This is the voice of Johnny Johnston. You've probably never 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.480 heard of him, but I doubt that you'll forget him. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:41.720 On the walk from the truck to the door of 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.600 his cabin, I estimated there to be no less than 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:50.040 twelve well taken care of hunting dogs scattered within sight, beagles, 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.840 running walkers, and bird dogs. To Johnny, being called a 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.360 hillbilly is a term of endearment, and he identifies as one. 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.600 And by his definition, the highest drinking qualification has nothing 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:06.000 to do with hounds or overalls. But it's not being superficial. 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.200 This story is about Johnny's life and we'll learn some 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:14.120 foundational stuff that started on this hunt with Ben Lee. 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:21.560 So he left, I stayed continued to Hunt. Hunt was 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.640 over into seasion. I was going to go out west 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.840 in Turkey Hunt and I had a gun and some 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:32.040 stuff at Octavia friend of mine's house, and I was 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.320 supposed to have been there that got my stuff, and 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.719 I never showed up, so we came looking for me 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:43.080 and found me. I had flipped my gep over, broke 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.720 my neck, broke my back, cut my left ear off, 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:52.520 crushed the foot bunge of rib. Critical condition. Well. They 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.240 loaded me in the back of a Bronco and took 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.600 me to the hospital, and my wife was there pretty upset. 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.800 I don't remember any of it. There was from drinking involved. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:09.400 There is something to that drinking and drive. Because since 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:13.200 I've quit drinking fifteen years straight n or nineteen days ago, 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:14.320 I had a night of rouge. 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.960 When people know to the day how long they've been sober, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.080 the days prior to that were probably tough. Johnny is 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.039 from the small town of heaven Or, Oklahoma. He was 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.440 born in nineteen forty nine. He's seventy five years old. 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.200 He's been married to the same woman for fifty five years. 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.520 He's of average height. He has a wiry build with 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.440 dark eyes that squint tight when he smiles. We're inside 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.960 of his small white cabin with interior walls of rough 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.320 san oak turkey beards hanging wads from deer antlers like 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.760 clusters of grapes. Every single beard has a tag attached 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.080 to it. There's no cell service here, but he doesn't 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.960 on a cell phone or a computer. He never had. 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:05.200 Let's get back to the hospital. This wreck sounds really bad. 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.640 But I was telling her they would fix me the 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.440 best they could right then, and they could later come 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.800 back and fix my ear. And I said, oh, I 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:18.960 forgot to tell you. My ear is in the right 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.320 front pocket of my Camelflaud. 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:22.280 You told him that. 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.640 I told the doctor that on the gurner going into surgery, 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:28.360 and he said, go look at his clothes and see 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.880 if you find an ear. And a nurse came running 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:36.800 down the hall and said, I've got an ear. And 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.840 so they took my ear, and he said, well, we'll 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.799 do the best we can. And I raared up again 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.880 and said he so I on backwards where I hear 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:48.599 them turkeys walking behind me. 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.040 That story tips us off to two things, how central 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.839 wild turkeys have been in his life, and that he 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.559 is a character. This whole story is about Johnny's life, 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.280 some of it very personal, but I'm interested in his 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.600 relationship with the law as it relates to wild turkeys. 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.840 People's relationship to the law is helpful in understanding our society, 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.360 not the one we think we have, but the one 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.760 we actually do have. Johnny is a rare find, willing 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.160 to be vulnerable. When a stranger showed up me and 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.600 asked about some of the darkest times of his life, 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.200 I think we should start off with that. Credit to 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.600 his ledger. In the last three years, no less than 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.680 half a dozen people have emphatically told me that I 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.440 needed to come here to Johnny's, including a game warden, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.800 but nobody could really articulate why. There's a lot I 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.800 don't know about Johnny. So I'm going to begin with 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:53.360 a question about his friendship to a particularly famous turkey hunter. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.600 You may have heard of him. Tell me about your 0:07:57.680 --> 0:07:59.560 relationship with Ben Lee. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:05.280 He's a super nice guy, big man walking this hooting, 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.760 this yap and this human I oversaw. He went from 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:13.640 daylight to the door, charged him turkey. He knew turkey, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.080 he knew how to hunt. He had a call company 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.120 made call He was just a good, good fellow. I 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.600 liked you. He just had away with people. 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.080 Now, how did you meet him? 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.840 Through a friend of mine hunting down there and I 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.120 told him where they could find some turkeys, and they 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:31.800 went there and hunted, and he said, I want to 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.280 meet this guy told us about this spot where the 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:38.400 turkey dore and I tell many. He invited me up 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.480 there to talk, and we just went hunting and killed 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.360 a turkey and hit it off. He'd come down and 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.199 camped with me ever spring after that. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.079 This story isn't about Ben Rogers Lee, but his connection 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:56.599 to Johnny is beyond interesting. Ben was from Jackson, Alabama, 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.240 and has been referred to as the father of modern 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.200 turkey hunting. He started his call company, ben Lee Calls 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:09.400 in nineteen seventy and made a flurry of instructional tapes, videos, seminars, 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.640 and won five turkey calling World Championships. He was a 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.960 Southern style storyteller and was one of the great communicators 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.959 of American turkey hunting. Here's a clip of Ben Lee. 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.000 Sitting out there any woods. She's laid a few eggs, 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.320 you know. He gets up there in the morning at 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.240 four o'clock, you know, and old Ale, well he'll out 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.800 wakes him up here. Boy, he just had his law. 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.240 I mean, he just ready for ever thing to happen. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:45.480 So instructional tapes. We're a big then. Turkey hunting was 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.680 just getting going. Mouth called, we're just coming out. My 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.920 old turkey hunting friend, one that I hunted with, used 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.640 a gold horn and a piece of slate. Now, I excided, 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.400 could you get on a gold horn? They clucked a 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.280 couple of time i's and three soft yeps and put 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:08.160 it down, And that was completely reverse way being legal. Honey. 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.480 He never shut up. He walked calling turkey gobbled. He 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.760 didn't die in a brush ball. He'd start to at turkey, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.640 calling and walking to it, and he'd get right on 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.680 them and put some turkey stuff to him. Well, he 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.920 told me one time, he said, you like this game, 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.600 but you got to keep in mind, if you hunt 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.680 these turkeys like they need to be hunting, you won't 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.040 have no friends, your family be mad at you, you'll 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:40.480 probably lose your job. He went on and on about 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.960 all bad things that can happen to you. I said, well, 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.520 it can't be that bad. He said, I'm talking about 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.920 if you really hunt turkey. Now there's people that turkey 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.480 hunt and there's people that really hunt them. 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.080 I get the feeding Johnny is one of those turkey 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.200 hunters that really hunts them, and that these hanging tagged 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.240 beards aren't the only turkeys. This man is killed. His 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.960 friendship with Ben Lee is going to lead us right 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:11.679 into something critical. Did you know him personally very well? Like, like, 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:13.720 was he married? Did he have a family? 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.040 He had been married thirteen times? 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:18.680 Are you serious? 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.160 I'm serious, That's what he told me. I didn't know 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.600 all his wives. I knew Servello. But he said, if 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.240 you really hunt him, turkey's right. That's when he said 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.760 about the family and your job and all that. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.040 He was speaking from experience, from experience, y'all? Was he was? 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:37.120 He kind of an outlaw? 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.440 Sort of would you say? Was? I hate the category people? 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.680 But yeah, he's kind of like myself. 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:52.240 Interesting, he was kind of like myself, he said, an outlaw. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.120 I'd heard this about Johnny and Ben, but I didn't 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.120 know for sure about Johnny. I kind of put him 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.480 on the spot, and he it's hesitant to categorize his 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.520 old friend in this way. But Johnny kind of tells 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.319 stuff the way it is. But again, this story isn't 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.640 about Ben Lee, who passed away in a car accident 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.160 in nineteen ninety one at the age of forty six. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.960 The story is about Johnny Johnston, and as you may know, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.320 I have a lot of respect for people willing to 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.960 be honest about their past. I've often found people like 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.560 Johnny to be more honest than people with less visible 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.240 issues lurking in their past. And I know that people 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.760 like Johnny are usually cut from a different cloth. In 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.960 this next question, I cut right to the chase, and 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:46.640 you'll hear the nervousness in my voice was with you. 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:54.160 Did you did you ever have any Did the law 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.360 ever mean anything to you? No? Why wouldn't it because 0:12:58.559 --> 0:12:59.760 most people it does. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.720 The law itself? Or you mean a turkey law, Yeah, yeah, 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.520 when turkey's gobbled the hunting them. 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:09.960 You just weren't afraid of getting in trouble. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:15.040 No, never crossed my mind. I had it explained to 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.920 me one time by a judge in court, not hunting. 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.600 It seems like I had killed a turkey during the 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.599 wrong dates and times. He said, why did you do that? 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.200 I said, Well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get right, 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:36.040 you pick them. When your potatoes get right, you dig them. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:40.040 When your turkeys are right, you go get you on. Yeah, 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.520 but he said that's not the way we do it. 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.400 You have laws that govern when you kill them and 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.800 when you can. He explained that to. 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:55.520 Me, Americans are intrigued by people willing to break the 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.200 law period. If you need convincing, just look at the 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.160 top movies, podcasts, and books we read. Heck, look at 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.040 the top Bear Grease podcast. But I'm still trying to 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:12.880 understand why. I think examinations of extremes help calibrate society 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.440 in some tribal, primitive way, almost like we get the 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:21.080 signal for normal by bouncing off the outliers. But there's 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.360 no debate about it. What's ironic is that we are 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:28.960 a society of rule followers. If our civilization gets smashed 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.400 by a comet and archaeologists dig it up and start 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.960 making conclusions about us, they'll find that this country was 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.680 built on law and order. The vast majority of people 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.840 who come to a stop sign in the middle of 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.320 the night, even though they know that no one is watching, 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.040 they're gonna stop, I mean at least a rolling stop, 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.640 And in many places of the world they wouldn't at all, 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:57.840 even when they know people are watching. Americans are rule followers, 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:04.080 despite the independent liber the aholic, brash exterior. But the 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:09.240 outliers are worth examination, and Johnny was an outlier when 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.640 it came to wildlife law. We need to know more 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:19.200 about his past. Now, let me this is kind of 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.880 a personal question. But would your parents have raised you 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:24.040 to just obey the law? 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:24.320 Oh? 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.080 Yeah, just like in general. Yeah, you would have known 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.720 nobody can't steal or you can't. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:32.880 O My folks were by the book all the way. 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.080 Well, how did how did you get from that to 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:37.720 being willing to break the law? 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.720 I don't know, just getting in the world and not 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:46.320 really caring, just doing pretty much what I wanted to do. Yeah. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.400 Now, did you ever really get in trouble? Did you 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.600 ever get caught, like killing a legal turkey? 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.960 Yeah? I just didn't ever give it a whole lot 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.400 of thaw when turkeys are goblin. I just went on. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:04.320 Always like this can make people feel uncomfortable, especially people 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.080 that love wildlife and conservation and talk about it a lot. 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.080 But this is part of the rural America that I 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:17.080 grew up around. Turkey laws were often seen as mere suggestions. 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.360 This next story is about the man who taught Johnny 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.880 to turkey hunt, and the first time they got caught. 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.640 I can't talk about turkeys with talking about my old friend, 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:32.760 the man that taught me out of turkey hunt superman. Yeah, 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:38.120 we've been caught. He lived at Tallahaney, Oklahoma, and I'm 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.600 calling his name. He's dead and gone now and he's 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.640 respected by every turkey hunter or that part of the world. 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.960 Way ain't caught turkey killing. This man I've ever met, 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.160 have ever known. And I knew that he hunted a 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.680 law back when I started. I didn't even know him. 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.440 I went he was horsemen, had a good race horse, 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.480 stood a race sore stallion, and now I was kind 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.560 of a horseman back in the day, and that's how 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.000 I knew him. But I looked him up and got 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.360 acquainted with him, and I said, here's what I want. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.160 I want you to teach me how to turkey hunt. 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.240 No old board, I want to know it all. Well, 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.400 he said, next spring, you'll just have to come over here, 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.920 we'll go. I said, when when he said, oh, first 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:26.080 of March, had a good time. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.280 If you're a turkey hunter, you'll know that ninety eight 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.760 percent of American turkey seasons don't open in the first 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.639 of March. This was an invite to get an illegal 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:37.600 early start. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.720 Okay, so first of March I went to day with 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.639 it and we hunted and he what lettle I know 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.520 about a turkey? That old gentleman taught me he was 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:58.399 slicking a snottled the door knob. Now he used a wingbone, 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.760 or a piece of can or a briar leaf or 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.080 a peach leaf later on in the year, or a 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:10.040 sleigh called very little, very light. You could be sitting 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.919 next to him and barely hear him call. But he 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:18.240 didn't call to a turkey unless he was seventy yards close. 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.840 He used the terrain, the lamb, to cover of darkness 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:26.240 to get to him. He said, there's no such thing 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.840 as working a turkey. People talked about working a turkey 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.360 for two hours. He said that should never happen. If 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.679 they're right on that turkey, they're having killed in ten minutes. 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.480 One cluck, two clucks. That's not put the call up. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:46.119 And he showed me some moves pretty slick. He's a 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.320 good guy, but he didn't pay a lot of attention 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:58.520 to season. When a turkey gobbled. He went. We were 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:03.840 one day in there behind his place and two turkeys. 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.000 He give me to easy. He wasn't. He took the 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:11.159 hard one further and we met back. We had two turkeys, 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.840 he said. We was walking back to the jeep and 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.640 one gobbled off in fe a little rough candy that injurors, 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.400 give me out turkey, I'm going gee. So I went 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.280 off down there. Nothing, couldn't do nothing with him. Watered 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.480 him around a couple of hours, come back, went to 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.080 the g well. He said, we've been caught. We may 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.440 we've been called well, he said, I've been called game 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.879 boardeners there when I got here, got a ticket. You 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:48.040 got two tickets. So that's the first time we'd ever 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.560 been in any problem, and we on it all time. 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:51.040 Poor ze. 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.600 What did he tell the game boarding that you were 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:53.919 down there? 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.119 No, he wasn't. Never told that. He said, I heard. 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.439 I hurried up and took the ticket because I know 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.879 you was going shoot any minute. 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.520 This is where the story starts to get complicated. It 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.040 was back in the mid seventies. It would be the 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:13.360 start of about thirty years of illegal turkey hunting for Johnny. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.360 My dad used to get on to me a low 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:19.200 or hunting too much. 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.840 Really so your dad, Oh yeah, I knew that you 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.000 were illegally hunting. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:24.239 Oh yeah, he wouldn't do it. 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:25.600 What would he say to you? 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.440 I'd call him and asked for a ride somewhere, let 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.680 me out and picked me up at a certain time. 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:32.320 He knew what I was doing. 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.119 What would he say? Do you remember anything specific? Like 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.280 he was like, Johnny, this is bad. You're gonna get 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:38.800 in trouble. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:40.280 You no better than now. 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:41.960 But he still helped you. 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.760 Yeah, he would. He didn't like it, but he would. 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.280 Yeah. Did he ever hide guns in the woods? 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:52.960 Oh? Man, Yeah, I had a couple of logs up here. 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.960 I'd put him in and I had a no shotgun. 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:57.960 I'd very proud of I put it in there in 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:02.480 the wood. Rats he just stopped cheot it all up. 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:04.720 So it's just like in a couple of days. 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.840 Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, they just eat on it 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:09.720 and eat on it. So I'd get me a big 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:15.200 PVC and pipe put it in camp. And another time 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.000 or two I got a chuckle control burns. They cause 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.920 you some pugalty. I had a gun back over here 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.240 and stay in here in the camper. And I came 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.600 in that day and took a nap and I got up. 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.240 You couldn't see for the smoke. I thought, crap, I've 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.320 got a Browning shot gun and a log right in 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.520 that far, so I'll get it on my four wheeler 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:41.919 and i'll take off up very well. I'll come around 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:46.119 and then just people ever were bulldoders and fire lighters, 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.040 and I was trying to get around, and I was 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:50.000 trying to stop. 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:51.919 Didn't burn your guy up. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.960 Now, I got through them and got through it. Boy, 0:21:54.920 --> 0:22:01.640 it's pretty smoky and it's getting pretty cloth. Yeah. Another time, 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:06.160 a funny little deal. I got a chuffle out, hit 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:08.200 a turkey and a gun up here on a dead 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.960 end road, and I went back up there again. It later, 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:17.800 everything good, everything okay, And there was a bulldozer and 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.040 a lot boy sitting there not ten foot from my 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.119 turkey in that gun. Well, but he run over that 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:28.520 gun when he unloaded that older but he didn't he 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:32.680 minced it about that for yeah, and they were doing 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.639 something and we knuck around about the gun turkey and 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:36.360 got out of there. 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:42.840 This is some pretty serious outlawn. Illegal turkey hunters often 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.639 hid guns in the woods where they knew turkeys were close, 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:48.920 so they could drive to and from the spot without 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.199 a gun in the truck, making it almost impossible for 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:55.800 game wardens to pin them down. It might seem unusual 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.520 for us to be talking about this so openly, but 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.639 the reason he's so comfortable is that today Johnny doesn't 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.040 have anything to hide, because when he hit the bottom 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:10.560 fifteen years, three hundred and nineteen days ago, everything was 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:15.440 laid bare. That story is coming. I'd rather someone tell 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:17.840 it to me like it happened than try to sugarcoat it. 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:20.399 I think we need to fill in the gaps in 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.960 Johnny's history, though, I'm interested in his upbringing. 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:31.240 I was born in Haveneror in Oklahoma, ordinary people. My 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.199 dad worked for the railroad. All my family worked for 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:38.480 the railroad. I grew up just a normal boy, playing sports, 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:43.800 and my dad quail hunted John I just went crazy 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:45.880 about it. I love it. That's what I do, that's 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:50.439 my lie. And I played sports and rodeo. Was raised 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.320 on a horse, rode a horse to a ball practice, 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:56.960 and rode a horse everywhere I went swimming and over time, 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:01.080 and the hunting part of it that I just kind 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.720 of figured it out on my own. My dad, dear 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:07.760 honted a little bit and he'd take me and he 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:10.239 gave me a thirty thirty and I just started there 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:15.080 hunt and just talking to people and learning how to 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:18.760 hunt and doing it and learning from my mistake. That's 0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:21.120 a big thing we can learn in our lives by 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:26.320 our mistakes. I disliked life. I was raised in church, 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:31.439 and I don't know where I went wrong, but I 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.000 liked the world better. I did think the hard way, 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:40.400