1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I've 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: talked to people that were there at those parties and 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: they said, the priest would Greek stakes are on a 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: Friday night and grill him. I mean, you're Catholic, at 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: can't he can't he steak kind of Friday night. But 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: they're pretty wild parties and these are These might have 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: been people that joined the priesthood so they wouldn't have 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: to go to war World or two. Who knows, but 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: I think they probably met. Then. This is Jim Graham. 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Jim is now seventy three years old. He's retired from 11 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: a long career as an airline executive, and he lives 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: with his wife in South Carolina. If you were to 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: pass by Jim on the street, you might peg him 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: for an older gentleman living a quiet, simple life. He 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: has a sweet face, a bit on the reddish side, 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: and kind eyes that seem ready at any given moment 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: to laugh or to cry. This is a story of 18 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: a secret so immense, so tightly held not only by 19 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: a family, but by one of the most powerful institutions 20 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: in the world, the Catholic Church. I'm Danny Shapiro, and 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: this is Family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 22 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 23 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. I grew up in the suburbs of 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: Buffalo Williamsville, New York. We lived in a quiet street 25 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: about two miles from the downtown center, and I was 26 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: raised with my two older sisters, one two years older, 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: one eight years older. John Graham, my father, lived with 28 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: us and his parents who really raised me. My mother 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: was divorced from John Graham. She lived in New York City, 30 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: and she would see us out twice a year at 31 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 1: four consecutive days, and these appointments or visitations were arranged 32 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: by attorneys, and the hours of seeing us would be 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: from ten o'clock morning to seven o'clock at night. And 34 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: in the house we lived and I could never talk 35 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: about my mother. There are no photographs of my mother. 36 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: It was just understood that there would be in all 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: contact with my mother. The only thing we got from 38 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: my mother was a birthday cards and Christmas package. And 39 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: how did that feel to you as a as a kid? 40 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean, was there an absence in terms of your 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: mom not being around? Yes, I mean they're my friends. 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: All had head mothers, and my friends would ask, you, know, 43 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: where is your mother? And I think that on the 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: street when my mother would come by and pick us 45 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 1: up at ten o'clock in the morning, everybody be looking 46 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: out the window because they're all kind of anxious to 47 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: know who my mother is. She never got out of 48 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: the car, so it was always kind of a secret, 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: not just at school, but on on our street. Um, 50 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: and how was your mother during those visits? They were 51 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: joyful those visits. You know, the first time get hugged, 52 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: I get guessed. This is the nineteen fifties. A father 53 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: getting custody of three children unheard of. So what had 54 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: his mother done that was so horrible? When Jim asked 55 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: his mother why he almost never saw her, she told 56 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: him that a powerful divorce attorney had handled the divorce. 57 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: But the Grahams weren't a wealthy family, so if you 58 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: really thought about it, it didn't make sense. There had 59 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: to be another reason why Jim's father was granted custody. 60 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: After all, he wasn't exactly the fatherly type. So talk 61 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: to me a little bit about drawn Graham, the figure 62 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: that he was for you as a boy as you 63 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: were growing up. He was didn't spend much most time 64 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: with me at all. He left early in the morning, 65 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: came home late at night. He ran a gas station. 66 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: UM six five days out of the year he would 67 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: meet with us at regular dinner time. He came well 68 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: later and his mother would serve him, you know, a 69 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: steak almost every night. Later ever threw a ball with me. 70 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: Um never said a nice thing to me, never never 71 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: motivated me, never asked anything about my games that I 72 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: played baseball or basketball, Who want or you know how 73 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: I did. It was kind of like a no contact 74 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: sport unless something serious came up and I had to 75 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: ask permission for something. And then when I wanted to 76 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: go to college, go to Prade Institute Commercial Artist, and 77 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: I had good grades. My very good grades are about 78 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: B B plus plus. They had all a's and art. 79 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: He said, I'm not going to co sign alone. If 80 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: you flunk out, I'm stuck with the bill. So it was. 81 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: It was just a very strange upbringing. So Jim goes 82 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: to college in Buffalo and one day he comes home 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: to find that his grandmother and his aunt have opened 84 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: his private mail a letter from his girlfriend. This invasion 85 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: of his privacy is the last straw in a miserable childhood. 86 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: He throws his books and belongings into the back of 87 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: his car and drives to New York City. I knew 88 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: that my mother had She mentioned she lived near Iraq 89 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: idle Held Airport. That's what it was called, nose Day. 90 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: So I filed the science addle where airport was just 91 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: how Kennedy Airport. And I couldn't believe how big that 92 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: the airport was. It was bigger than Buffalo, New York 93 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 1: could seemed. So I pulled over and found her a number, 94 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: and information called her and she said, where are you 95 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: calling from. I said, I'm here at old Airport. I 96 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: thought you lived near the airport, so she said just 97 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: stay there, we'll come find you. Well, I mean, she 98 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: was just well, she was shocked that I was there 99 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: in the first place, and asked if I had told 100 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: the Grahams that I was down here, and I said 101 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: I hadn't. She said, well, you know, when we get home, 102 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: you better give them a call that comes. I'm sure 103 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: they're concerned about where you are. And then she was just, 104 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, very joyous to have me, and she was 105 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: showing me off to the neighbors right away. The next morning, 106 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: and it was she was just was in her element 107 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: that she had a child to describe to people. So 108 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: Jim is eighteen years old and living with his mother 109 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: for the very first time. His mom is now remarried 110 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: to a New York City cop. Jim gets a job 111 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: working as a mail boy at LaGuardia Airport. It and 112 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: he stays with his mom and stepped dad for a 113 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: while until he gets on his feet, and then a 114 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: lot happens. Jim works his way up through American Airlines 115 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: and is promoted each year. He's drafted into the army 116 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: and as a two year stint, when he returns home, 117 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: he meets his future wife. Then I met my wife, 118 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: who was a stewardess with American Alliance Better at Gate eight. 119 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: We got buried, and it was interesting. When my sisters 120 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: get married, they invited one parent to the wedding night 121 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: the other because John Graham and my mother hadn't seen 122 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: each other in twenty some years. But I didn't feel 123 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: it was right to bring my wife into a dysfunctional family. 124 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: I went to my mother and said, will you come 125 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: to our wedding? And she said did your father come? 126 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: And I said no, So I went to my father, 127 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: I said, you will come to my wedding and she's 128 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: He said, as your mother coming and I said no. 129 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: So they both ended up at the wedding um and 130 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: we're surprised you see each other after twenty some years. 131 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: The reception was at my Melody's parents house, and we 132 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: had the receiving line in the living room, and then 133 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: the reception was outside under tents in the backyard, and 134 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: I put my father in the receiving line and my 135 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: mother went through it and shook his hand, and she 136 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: didn't realize it was him until like two people later. 137 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: And both entourises lent to different parts of the backyard 138 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: under the tent, and they had never had a conversation, 139 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: but I could see them peeking at each other, peering 140 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: over the other guests. I've noticed that when it comes 141 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: to family secrets, often without even knowing there is a secret, 142 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: people become hell bent on not repeating history. I know 143 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: that was true for me, especially when I was starting 144 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: a family of my own. I didn't know that there 145 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: was a massive secret hanging in the air, or I 146 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: should say I didn't consciously know it. But I was 147 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: clear on one thing in my family, the one I 148 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: was making everything was going to be out in the open. 149 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: That's what strikes me most about what Jim does here. 150 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: He wants his new wife to meet both his parents 151 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: at his wedding like a normal family. And another thing 152 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: I've noticed, when there are secrets, cracks begin to appear. 153 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: No matter how seamless the facade may seem to be, 154 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: at some point or another, there are hints, clues, a word, 155 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: a phrase, a gesture that allows us to see that 156 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: there's something lurking beneath the surface. John Graham was on 157 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: an airplane with me several years before he died. It 158 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: was a pass that I gave him because when you 159 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: were with the airlines and can give your parents passes, 160 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: and I said, when you go out to Hawaii to 161 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: visit my sisters and they're grand one had a grandchild. 162 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: So I put him on that airplane. And I was 163 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: working that airplane. I was a representative for Americans selling 164 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: the return flight. I was a salesman at board basically, 165 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: and I'm in a suit and talking to the passengers. 166 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: And I put him up for his class, and I 167 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: told us Stewarts just to take care of me. He's 168 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: my father, and he'd never been on an aeroplane before, 169 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: I don't believe. And so after the second meal that 170 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: he had, he called me up there when I was 171 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: kind of finished talking to the passengers. He said, we'd 172 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: just sit down with with me for a minute. He 173 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: was in the lounge opposite the galley at that point. 174 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: And again, you know, I always thought of him as 175 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: the the j Clebato type guy, but here he's older, 176 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: weakened a little bit by diabetes, maybe hard condition, and 177 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: he said, I just want to apologize for the way 178 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: I treated you, and he cried profusely. We're going to 179 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: pause for a moment. John Graham dies when Jim is 180 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: in his mid thirties, and one night, many years after 181 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: John Graham's death, Jim, who is by now, is up 182 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: late drinking scotch with a cousin and he talks about 183 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: the difference in the ways the two of them were raised. 184 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: Jim speaks openly about his father, his temper, his neglect, 185 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: and his cousin goes back and tells his father, Jim's uncle, 186 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: and Jim's uncle gets very angry that Jim has been 187 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: speaking ill of his dear departed brother, and so Jim's 188 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: uncle otto let's lose with a piece of huge information. 189 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: He tells his son that Jim is not a Graham, 190 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: that John Graham is not Jim's father at all. This 191 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: would be enough of a bombshell, but the real bombshell 192 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: is Jim's father. His biological father is a Catholic priest. 193 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: Jim's mother had an affair with a Catholic priest. Well, 194 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: he he leaks the fact that I'm not a Graham, 195 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: that my father was a priest to his son. His 196 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: son leaks the information to my wife, and my wife 197 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: for a few weeks didn't tell me because you didn't 198 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: know if his truly so she kind of went through 199 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: the Graham family to get some validation. And the aunt 200 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: that lived with us said, don't tell him. And what 201 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: did she? She told me. It was over dinner in 202 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: San Francisco to a nice restaurant. I was out there 203 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: on business. I ordered about it on the rocks for 204 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: my drink, and normy Melody would drink glass wine, but 205 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: she ordered the same thing, so I knew something was up. 206 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: So during that dinner conversation, she said, they're going to 207 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: tell you something new you've never heard before. And she 208 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: said that they told me that your father was not 209 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: John Graham, your father was Father Sullivan, Thomas Sullivan, a 210 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: Catholic priest. Did you believe her? Did you believe it? Oh? Yes, 211 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: you did instantly. I mean because because then I looked 212 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: at my history, my childhood and all those issues that 213 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: works very strange, just made sense. I could just see, 214 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: I see everything fallen into place. It was I was 215 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: shocked because you normally think these things happened to other people. 216 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: You read about it in a book, you're seeing a movie, 217 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: doesn't happen to ordinary people. So for a moment I 218 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: was shocked, but then I could see it did happen 219 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: because the strange background I had it all added up. Yeah. 220 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: It's another thing that I feel like I hear a 221 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: lot and I understand pretty well. Is that that feeling 222 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: of like suddenly it's it's such an unlikely, impossible thing, 223 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: and yet it's like the lights blink on a's like, oh, 224 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: that's that makes sense. Sure, Even though it's so shocking, 225 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: it's both shocking and makes sense at the same time. 226 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: So that conversation I had with John Graham in the airplane, 227 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: that was one of the first things I thought of. 228 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: Jim calls his aunt Katherine and uncle Otto and asks 229 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: for a meeting. He wants to talk with them about 230 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: his real history. They're not too pleased about this. After all, 231 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: Uncle Otto is still mad at Jim from aligning his brother, 232 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: plus they really just don't want to talk about Jim's 233 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: real history. It was there was no warm greeting. We've 234 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: walked and I walked into the kitchen. We're sitting around 235 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: oak table, and it was now in his eighties and 236 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 1: Katherine's and her eighties, and it was very awkward. I 237 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: wasn't offered a cup of coffee, a coke or anything, 238 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: so I just asked where the glasses were and I 239 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: put myself us water out of the faucet, sat down, 240 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: and it was just very very quiet. And then finally 241 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: Catherine said I have something here for and she pulled 242 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: a m obituary on a newsletter on the table and 243 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: she said, this man maybe your father. We don't know 244 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: only the principles now and they're all dead. So I'm looking. 245 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: I'm looking at a photograph of of a priest with 246 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: you know, the obituary written with all his background and 247 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: he had receding hair. It was an older picture of 248 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: a priest, but it might looked at his eyes. It 249 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: looked at his nose, he looked at his mouth. I 250 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: looked at his chin. Looked just like me. The newsletter 251 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: the obituary came from is called the Opline World. The 252 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: Ablins are a Catholic order founded in France in eighteen 253 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: forty three. Primarily missionaries, they came to North America through 254 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: Canada and eventually found their way down to Buffalo. There's 255 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: the name of an editor on the newsletter as well. 256 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: Jim looks up that editor and finds an address and 257 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: phone number in Tewksbury, Massachusetts. I think the fact that 258 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: they said, you know, these are the principles, only they 259 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: know when they're dead, I think that was a talking point, 260 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: probably given to them at the church. That's how they 261 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: should handle it, as if that would then be a 262 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: completely closed door exactly. This reminds me of a moment 263 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: in my own story where I went to see this 264 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: eighty something you're old rabbi who knew my family knew 265 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: my dad told him the whole story of what I 266 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: knew at that point, and he just turned to me 267 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: and he said, what story would ease your heart? And 268 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: I said, the true one, and he just looked at 269 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: me and he said, you'll never know. And I remember thinking, 270 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: you don't know who you're dealing with. And I don't 271 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: think they knew who they're dealing with here. So the 272 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: Graham's shut you down, and you have the editor or 273 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, some some kind of lead, right and interesting case. 274 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: You're not a journalist, but you you sounds like you've 275 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: become one. I have. So, so I called the number 276 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: and I asked an appointment to see the editor. And 277 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: I just mentioned that my family was friendly with the 278 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: father Sullivan and Buffalo years ago, and I just you know, 279 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: they're always talked about him. I just want to come 280 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: up and just see what he knew about him. So 281 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: UM made the appointment and he when it made the appoinment, 282 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: he said, we'll call us a couple of days before, 283 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: just to reconfirm. So when I reconfirmed, he was had 284 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: a different attitude. He was kind of saying, well, we're 285 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: not gonna be able to go to lunch and I 286 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: can only meet you at ten o'clock. And he knows 287 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: I live in oys debate and before and a half 288 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: hour drive to Tewkesbury, so to be a very short mean, 289 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: he was trying to discourage me. I said, well, I'll 290 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: be there. Father. When it comes to secrets, timing is everything. 291 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: What if Jim's uncle Otto had let slip his long 292 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: held knowledge that Jim was the secret child of Father 293 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: Tom Sullivan while Father Sullivan was still living. What do 294 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: you suppose would have happened then? Or did that slip 295 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: happen only because Uncle Otto and Aunt Catherine knew that 296 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: the priest was dead. There's no way of knowing, But 297 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: I do find the timing interesting, especially since Father Tom 298 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: Sullivan had only died a few months earlier. We stayed 299 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: with friends in Branford, Connecticut, the night before, and then 300 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: we drove up the next morning and my wife was 301 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: with me, and we met Father ready, and uh, he 302 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: was very businesslike, and I just kind of felt uncomfortable 303 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: that I'm not going to get much out of this 304 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: this meeting. But he asked him about a father Selvan, 305 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: and he said he was a great orator, he was 306 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: a great reader. He's a writer, he was an academic. 307 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: Or the other priests up here they might be watching 308 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: the Boston Red Sox. You know, he was always walking 309 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: the halls and reading a time magazine or something for 310 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: the Jesuits. So he said nice things about him, and 311 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: then I said, are there any personal effects that he 312 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: might have that are still here? And he said, we're 313 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: all old, we don't we don't keep things, so there's 314 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: there's nothing here to show you. And he said that 315 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: there wouldn't be any reason for you to talk to 316 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: any other priests about him either, So he was just, 317 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, trying to move the meeting along. And um 318 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: I asked if he had any relatives that might be alive, 319 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: and he said, he's from Lowell, but I don't I 320 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: don't think there's anybody alive. I don't recall anybody coming 321 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: to see him when he was in the infirmary, and 322 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: so I knew I wasn't getting any farther with him, 323 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: so I gave my business card and I looked at 324 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: him closely in the eyes, with a little bit of 325 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: a smile, and I said, you know, Father Ready, if 326 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: there's something you didn't tell me here today, and you 327 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: think you should, please give me a call. Once they're 328 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: back in the car driving away from the church, Jim's wife, 329 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: Melody asks him why he didn't tell Father Ready that 330 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: he's Tom Sullivan's son, but Jim just didn't feel comfortable. 331 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: He wasn't the right one. He says, there'll be another one. 332 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: They start heading home. On the next exit after Tewkesbury 333 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: is Lowell, which is where Jim has just learned his 334 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: father is from. So they pull off the exit. I 335 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: told you Jim as a born journalist, either that or 336 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: private eye. They go to the first church and ask 337 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: if anyone knew of a father Sullivan in town and 338 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: his fate would have it. The first person he asks 339 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 1: does know of father Sullivan, And so Jim and Melody 340 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: are directed to the Immaculate Conception Church. It was March 341 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: and there was snow in the ground, about a foot 342 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: of snow on the ground, but the sun was out 343 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: brilliant to its beautiful, beautiful day. So we drove to 344 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: the rectory and walked in and there was a secretary there, 345 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: and he asked if Father's savage his name was mentioned, 346 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: if he was available, and she said he's around here 347 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: in someplace. So she called a couple of numbers, and 348 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: while she was doing that, at the door behind us 349 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: and I could just see a silhouette because there was 350 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: a son and the snow in the background, it could 351 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: just see a silver an older priest with a hat 352 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: and a cape. And as he came close to me 353 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: then I could see his face, but very irish looking. 354 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: And the secretary said, this family is just looking to 355 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: hear know a little bit more about a father Sullivan. 356 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: And so he took us into a little anti room 357 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: right off the dusk from the secretary, and he said 358 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: basically the same thing as father. Ready. You know fatherrself 359 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: was great order, he's a writer's readers want and so forth. 360 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: He could you give a powerful sermon? And then I said, 361 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: out there any relatives left? And he said, let's go 362 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: out and ask the secretary. So we went out there 363 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: and she said, no, I think they're all dead. Y 364 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: all came here, was saying the choir. He had his mother, 365 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: three ants, and his uncle. They would come here with 366 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: his Sunday in a big black put But I think 367 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: they're all dead. And then he said to my wife, 368 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: he said there was a buffalo connection though, and you 369 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: might be interested in would you like to hear about that? 370 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: We said sure, so we walked on a longer hall. 371 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: He sat down behind a large desk like a bishop's desk. 372 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: We said on the other side, and he pointed up 373 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: my wife for you an attorney, and she said no. 374 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: He pointed at me, our u an attorney. I said no. 375 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: So I said to him, then you know, Father, He said, yeah, 376 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: I know. I said, how do you know? He said, 377 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: you looked just like At the end of their conversation, 378 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: Father Savage suggests to Jim that he'd just got on 379 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: with the rest of his life. He's still relatively young, 380 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,479 Speaker 1: he has good genes. Father Savage actually tells him this, 381 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: and then he says, forget the injustices of the past. 382 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: Forgetting the injustices of the past, especially when those injustices 383 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: have shaped your entire life, well that's just not going 384 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: to happen. Jim comes back to visit Father Savage about 385 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: a month and a half later. This time he comes 386 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: alone and unannounced. Jim and Father Savage sit around a 387 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: small round table, and Jim asks for details. He had 388 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: heard that money had been put aside for his education. 389 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: He wondered where that money went, since certainly it had 390 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: never been used for that purpose, and Father Savage he 391 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: denies ever having told Jim anything about his father flat 392 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: out lies about it, even though I'm not really up 393 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: on my Catholic doctrine, I've got to assume that lying 394 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: is considered a sin. And Jim is pretty sure that 395 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: whoever a Father's savages bosses told him to shut it down, 396 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: that if Jim came back, they should deny everything. It's 397 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of natural that they're gonna not tell me what 398 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: really would happen, just like a caught him off guard 399 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: that day. So Jim begins to knock on doors, lots 400 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: of doors. He does research on the opelite world and 401 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: finds classmates of his father's. They all referred to him 402 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: as father Tom Sullivan, not your father. They're well trained, careful. 403 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: Jim also follows the money trail. He's able to read 404 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: the wills of father Sullivan's immediate family. They were an 405 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: affluent family who owned real estate and lowell, but since 406 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: father Sullivan had taken a vow of poverty, he couldn't 407 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: receive the assets. And just to be clear, it isn't money. 408 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: Jim is after. It's information, it's history, it's justice. But 409 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: like a good detective, he's following the money because the 410 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: money might just get him there. Jim eventually discovers the 411 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: woman who ended up air to the Sullivan assets. She 412 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: was a nurse who had taken care of Thomas Sullivan's 413 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: mother and aunts when they fell ill, and in the 414 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: absence of any other heirs, they left the money to her. 415 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: He drives to her house and knocks on the front door. 416 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: She lets him in, almost as if she had been 417 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: waiting for him. So um again, I set him out 418 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: here for the assets. I'm here for the information. And 419 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: there must have been somebody that knew my father's story, 420 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: knew about me. There had to be somebody, and she 421 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: said him, it's funny you should ask. There was a 422 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: nun that would come here with him every now and then, 423 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: and they were very close, and she gave me the 424 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: name sister Mary. Uh So, when I got back to 425 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: New York the next day, I got on the phone 426 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: and I called up the order that she was with. 427 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 1: Jim is able to track down sister Mary, and he 428 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: and Melody make yet another drive to New England, this 429 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: time to Boston to take her out to dinner. My 430 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: wife said, what are you going to ask her first? 431 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: When you see her at the door, and they s 432 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask her if I remind her of anybody. 433 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: I rang the doorbell, and I could hear the steps 434 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: coming down to the landing, and she opened the window, 435 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: opened the glass door, and they said, sister, do I 436 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 1: remind you of anybody? And she just shrugged her shoulders. 437 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: I'll be right back. So she walked up the stairs 438 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: very slowly, came back down. And now she had a 439 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: bag that she was carrying with her and ad didn't 440 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: to a purse. And we drove to the restaurant. Was 441 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: very quiet in the car and we I asked for 442 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: a table in the corner, which was so we would 443 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: be out of the way of the traffic and noise. 444 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: And we're sitting down there. It's very awkward. Not much 445 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: as being said. And she says, the mission state in 446 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: my orders to tell the truth, and that's what I'm 447 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: gonna do today. So she said, I read about you 448 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: in your father's journal, and she was the first one 449 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: to use the term your father. She said he was 450 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: going through an operation and he thought you might not 451 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: get out of it. So he said, here's the keys 452 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: to my desk of a journal there and you can 453 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: read it, but destroyed after you read it. So she said, 454 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: that's right. I learned about you. And she told me 455 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: again great things about my father's relationship that they had. 456 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: So we we had a very emotional meeting. She kept 457 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: looking at my hands. She just was seeing the similarities 458 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: between you and your father. So after that, I won't 459 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: be able to read this video. Can she usubmit this card? 460 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: Jim hands me a card with a big heart and 461 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: a smiley face on it that looks like it's just 462 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: bursting with joy. On the inside of the card, it says, 463 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: you put a smile in my heart. Thanks so much. 464 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: Just beautiful handwriting. Can I read it aloud? Okay, Dear Jim, 465 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,959 Speaker 1: your letter and the picture came today. I can hardly 466 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: find the words to tell you what is in my heart. 467 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: Ever since Saturday, all I can see is your beautiful, 468 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: smiling face when I opened to the door. You have 469 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: no idea how you affected me. You are the very 470 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: image of your father. As I told you, I was 471 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: in the hospital when he died. I never really grieved 472 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: until I saw you. After you and Melody left, and 473 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: I didn't want you to leave. I had a good 474 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: cry Monday. I cried all the way home from work. 475 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: It was so kind of Melody to call me from Connecticut. 476 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: Someday I'll explain it all more fully to you. When 477 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: you told me your story, you're suffering ached in my heart. 478 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: I hope your struggle with the pain of unknowing is 479 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: eased a bit after forty years of silence. I felt relieved. 480 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: The diaries started with the novitt How do you say 481 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: that word? How jewish? Girl? The diaries started with the 482 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: novitiate day is poignant and painful, but even more so 483 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: after you were born Today. I worked on the history 484 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: even before your letter came. I went to the po 485 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: to mail a tape Doctor Maureen made for me. The 486 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: homily will interest you. I don't want to be a pest, 487 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: so if I am, just shut me off. If you can, 488 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: love and prayers um and it signed sister sister. Well 489 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: this made me cry. What an extraordinary woman still alive today. 490 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: We're going to pause for a moment for a word 491 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. Jim's research takes him to the archives 492 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: of the Obelite's Order in Washington, d C. Where he 493 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: meets a father O'Donnell from Buffalo. O'donnald is the first, 494 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: and it should be said, the only priest who shows 495 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: Jim kindness and compassion. Father O'Donnell gives Jim access to 496 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: the archives and then they go up to the cafeteria 497 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: for lunch. He introduced me as father Sullivan's nephew. I 498 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: never mentioned I was related to father Sullivan, but I 499 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: knew what he was doing because Father Savage said, you 500 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: looked just like him, and these older priests were probably 501 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: my father's agent, probably knew him. So I think he 502 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: just did that to kind of cover himself. Uh. So 503 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: we went downstairs later to the archives again, there weren't 504 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: he priests around, and I said, Father Donald liked to 505 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: tell you something. I'm not a father Sullivan's nephew. I'm 506 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: his son. So with that there was no change of expression. 507 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: And he reached in his head of Eisenhower jacket on 508 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: and he had something um documents and there in a 509 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: pouch and he gave them to me and he said, 510 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: these are are documents, uh that you may want to have. 511 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: And there was somewhere written in the Latin, some written 512 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: in English. I'm going to give you these, and there 513 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: are others that were purged. The documents that he gave 514 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: me talked about Father Selvan having a relationship with a woman. 515 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: Didn't mention her name but a woman. So later during 516 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: that conversation, we're in his office and uh, I saw 517 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: a rack shelf and there are a lot of crucifix 518 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: is just kind of on piles, just laying there, and 519 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: I said, um, what are those? And he said, well, 520 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: some of the families don't come back and get the 521 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: personal effects of the priests that passed away, so there's 522 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: some crucifixes left over from those that are deceased. But 523 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: he said, if you want to go through them and 524 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: find one that says a T. S. Slivan on it, 525 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: you can have it. That's so I did. I think 526 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: about the way it must have been back in the 527 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: mid when Tom Sullivan and Jim's mother first met. Jim 528 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: described his mom as tall, a redhead, pretty. She was 529 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: always beautifully dressed and had a friendly way about her, 530 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: smiling all the time. There were more women than men 531 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: at home back in Buffalo during World War Two, the 532 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: men were away and the women were around building aircrafts. 533 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: In Lackawanna, New York, Jim's mom liked parties. She was 534 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: famous for throwing Friday night parties once a month, and 535 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: so she invited priests and professors from the local seminary 536 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: to fill in for the absent husbands. They'd come over 537 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: and grill steaks and have cocktails. The parties were wild, 538 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: fueled by the pent up tensions of the time. It's 539 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: easy enough to imagine the way the young priest and 540 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: the young housewife might have fallen for each other and 541 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: decided to run off and make a new life. So 542 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: at this point, you know, right, you know, um, you 543 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: know who your father was. So then what happens? I 544 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: wrote home where the Order is headquartered? And I waited 545 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: till I could see that the head of the Order, 546 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: they called him the General Superior, was from Buffalo. He 547 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: was installed, so I figured he speaks English. Formerly there 548 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: was I think an Italian Superior General, and I thought 549 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: it might be awkward to send him a letter. He 550 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: may not, you know, read it the same way I didn't. 551 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: And knowing that this man was from Buffalo, he would 552 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: know some of the priests that I had dealt with. 553 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: So I sent him a letter to say that a 554 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: very respectful um that you know I met with these 555 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: various priests, and um, I believe in Father Sullivan's son. 556 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: They gave me some backgrounds of Father Sullivan. They never 557 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: said your father, but I'd like the church that confirmed 558 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: that he is my father. So I got a letter 559 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: back about two weeks later, just a short one, probably 560 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: prepared by a cannon lawyer, basically said, we have no 561 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: records of father Sullivan, father and a child. So I 562 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: wrote another letter to the same superior general, gave him 563 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: more detail about my research. Very respectful again, but I 564 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: just said that you know, I know I have filed 565 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: from files from father. O'donaldy said of the war a 566 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: perch um. But you must have still have those records 567 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: to know about those those those records. Because you're from Buffalo, 568 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: you know the same people id you and this is 569 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: your chance when you you became a preacher, I having 570 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: never realized you'd be a leader of the major order, 571 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: but this is your chance to do something vadic like 572 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: there's that Vatican true, to be transparent, to be truthful 573 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of letter back basically the same thing from a 574 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: candle lawyer and we have no records. Were you at 575 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: that point feeling like now I've got a closed door. Yes, 576 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: And if you go to Rome and you get those responses, 577 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: you know twice. How did you feel about this superior 578 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: general who then who wrote back to you twice with 579 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,239 Speaker 1: the boiler plate response. I just I just felt that 580 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: it's hard to believe um that they resist, you know 581 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: so strongly, you know, when you pour your heart out 582 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: in the letter, and he knows all the people that 583 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: I met with, it's just hard to believe that there 584 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: they're going to stone value that way. It's reality was reality. 585 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: So at that point, did you feel like dead end? 586 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: I was just thinking, you know, what's my next move? 587 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: And I didn't give up. A friend of Jim's tells 588 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: him to go see the Academy Award winning movies Spotlight, 589 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: in which a team of reporters at the Boston Globe 590 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: uncovers a horrifying pattern of sexual abuse in the Archdiocese 591 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: of Boston. Jim knows he needs help now. He writes 592 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: to the reporter, Mike Rosendez, and hear's back from him 593 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: within hours. Rasendez begins working on a story not just 594 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: about Jim's case, but about a series of secret children 595 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: of Catholic priests, an article that ends up on the 596 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: front page of the Boston Globe. There's nothing like a 597 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: front page story in a national newspaper to make people 598 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: who haven't wanted to pay attention. Suddenly pay attention. Jim 599 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: is supposed to meet with Boston Cardinal Shawn O'Malley, but 600 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: at the last minute, Jim is invited to the meeting. Still, 601 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: the cardinal promises to call the leader of the Obelite's 602 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: Order in the United States and let him speak with 603 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: Jim and find a resolution. Finally, it seems that there's 604 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: light for Jim. At the end of a very long 605 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: and dark tunnel. I got a call from a father's studard. 606 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: And the first thing he said to me, he said, 607 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, cardinal'malley asked me to call you. And when 608 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: I was installed last year as the head of the order, here, ah, 609 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: I heard about this thing lingering out here, your story, 610 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: this thing lingering after that's way phrases, And he said, 611 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: you may think your father's sold him's son, but you 612 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: can't prove it right away. And he repeated that he 613 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: badgered me. There was nothing pastoral about the conversation. So 614 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: I told him about you know, some of the interviews 615 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: I had with other priests said you looked just like 616 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. But he then he 617 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: followed up, what you can't prove it and so when 618 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: you call Father Dan donnal, he gave me my father's crucifix. 619 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: I believe he thinks and Father's Sullivan's son. Never said so, 620 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: but I believe that you think so. He said, he 621 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: can't prove it. I said, just call him. He hung 622 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: up at me, and he did call him. He called 623 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: me back about an hour later, said, I apologize for 624 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: hanging up in you. He said, I spoke to Father o'donald. 625 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: He does believe your father Sullivan's son, but you can't 626 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: prove it. And he can't prove it. And here's where 627 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: Jim's extraordinary tenacity and doggedness, that sense of you don't 628 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: know who you're dealing with, comes in. He sends a 629 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: letter to Father Studhar and says there is one way 630 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: to prove that Father Sullivan is his father, if the 631 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: church allows him to exhume the body. And I thought 632 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 1: about doing this before in the past, but I thought 633 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: it would be just grandstanding because they're never gonna let 634 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: me do that. Two weeks later, I get a letter 635 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: from them. They said, you can do that if you 636 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: do it at your own expense and no photographs are taken. 637 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: There's no press on the property. I just couldn't believe it. 638 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: Why do you think that they gave you permission to 639 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: do that? I think it was a poker game, and 640 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: they're just going to offer Jim Graham something so they 641 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: can at least say that, you know, they're they're open 642 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: to it. But I never thought I don't think they 643 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: ever thought I would do it. It wasn't an easy 644 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: thing to do. Did you pretty much know from that 645 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: moment that you received the permission to do it, that 646 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 1: you would do it? Or was I said I had 647 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: to do it. You know, it's a poker game, so 648 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: you have to you have to follow through. But I 649 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: wasn't expecting to get that kind of a letter, and I, 650 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's not a process that that I wanted 651 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: to go through because because I already know he's my father, 652 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: but at this point I have to prove it to 653 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: the church. So were you actually present when he was exhumed? 654 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: We were supposed to be present by the terms that 655 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 1: I had asked for. But what happened at the last 656 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: second is where at the cemetery that morning and I'm 657 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: walking up the hill to where my father's a grave 658 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: is at the two Experience Private cemetery and we're walking 659 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,439 Speaker 1: with the forensic anthropologist who is going to be doing 660 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: the work. There was a big blue tarp covering the 661 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 1: area and there was a back home. We could see 662 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: the top of the bacco was sticking up from the 663 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: blue tarp. And the administrator for the obelized not a priest, 664 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: came down and he said that I know you wanted 665 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: to be grave side, but the excavators won't let you 666 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: do that. That's in their policy. They don't want family 667 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: sitting in grave side when they're digging a grave. Anything 668 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: could happen. It could be a wooden casket we didn't know, 669 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: and it might collapse, and they didn't want families, you know, 670 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: seeing that kind of a situation. So I said, I 671 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: have no problem with that. So I just said a 672 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: hundred yards away in a park bench with my wife 673 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: while the exclamation was going on. He was supposed to 674 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: take about an hour and a half, but a lot 675 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: of things went wrong. It took over three hours. It 676 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: was a hot human day. Um, it was a difficult day. 677 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: As the anthropologist came down the hill after she did 678 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: her work. Her name is Dr Henry Myers from Massachusetts, 679 00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: renowned up there for the work that she does. She 680 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: had a big smile on her face and she said, 681 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: I saw in the photographs of your father that you 682 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: gave me. That's your father, because he's pretty well reserved 683 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: after twenty five years. So we sent the d n 684 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: A specimens off to a high profile lab that does 685 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: f b I work in the Washington, d C. Area. 686 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: Took over over two months aget the results. But the 687 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: results were ninety nine point nine and I'm his son. 688 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: How did that feel getting that tangible result? Actually we 689 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: did it up in Massachusetts, and uh, I was with 690 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: the anthropologists. I didn't want her to tell me on 691 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: the phone, so I drove up there and I wanted 692 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: to tell me a person. And it was emotional. I 693 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: didn't think it would be because I knew it was 694 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: going to be, but it was still emotional. I find 695 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: a pretty extraordinary to that. You know that as a 696 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist, her job is to look at the d NA, 697 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: right and that when she came from the grave site 698 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: and then she had that smile on her face. She 699 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 1: was saying to you, that's your father, which is so unscientific. 700 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: She wasn't going to look at DNA to be the 701 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: only thing speaking. So what was the response of the 702 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: Catholic Church once faced with the absolute evidence proof that 703 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: you were indeed Father Sullivan's son. Silence? I never heard 704 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: of them because they knew. What can they say? I 705 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: asked Jim about peace, about closure? What does it feel 706 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: like to have been able to put all the pieces 707 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: of his childhood together until they make sense, even if 708 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: it's a kind of painful sense. And what of Father Sullivan, 709 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: Jim's father? What must it have been like to have 710 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: given up a child? I think the piece I have 711 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: is that I followed through. I didn't give up. I 712 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: still liked him to say, to confess to what they 713 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: did to us in the four niece. When they separated us, 714 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: they took my father back into the to the order, 715 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: and he was spent sixteen years in Essex, New York, 716 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: in a camp, rehabilitation camp that the Outlites had for 717 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: wayward priests. Sixteen years in a camp, a rehabilitation camp 718 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: for wayward priests. What was the church trying to rehabilitate 719 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: in Tom Sullivan? What exactly was so wrong with falling 720 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: in love with a woman having a child with her? 721 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: I know, I know divorce was rare in those days, 722 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: but it wasn't impossible. Why was it so essential to 723 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: the church to break this man's spirit and to separate 724 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,720 Speaker 1: him from his son. They took me from my mother's 725 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: custody and put me in John Graham's family to look 726 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: like John Graham's son. John Graham lied in a a 727 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,439 Speaker 1: deposition in an action for divorce between my mother and him. 728 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: When the judge said, is at your son? He said, yes, 729 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: so it is very well organized the scheme, the conspiracy 730 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: back in ninety seven to ensure that I would never 731 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: know my father as a priest. When you think of 732 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: the idea that you would never have known, are you 733 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: glad you know? Oh, definitely, because it sells all those mysteries. 734 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: Earlier in our conversation, when Jim and I were sitting 735 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: across from each other in the small sound proof recording 736 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: studio in Atlanta, he reached into his briefcase and pulled 737 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: out a crucifix, inching it across the table. It was 738 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: bronze and black, heavy in the hand, with the lettering T. S. 739 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: Sullivan there. It was an heirloom, a birthright, a piece 740 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: of evidence. That's extraordinary. What did that feel like finding 741 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: that it's like, it's like a part of it. I'd 742 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: like to thank my guest Jim Graham for sharing his 743 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: family secret and recounting his twenty five year journey to 744 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: revealing the truth. You can find out more about his 745 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: story on his Twitter account at Jim Graham, That's Jim 746 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 1: Graham and then the numbers four or five. Family Secrets 747 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: is an iHeart Media production. Dylan Fagan is a supervising producer, 748 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: Andrew Howard and Tristan McNeil are the audio engineers, and 749 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: Julie Douglas is the executive producer. If you have a 750 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: family secret you'd like to share, you can get in 751 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: touch with us at listener mail at Family Secrets Podcast 752 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: dot com, and you can also find us on Instagram 753 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: at Danny Writer, and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod, and 754 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: Twitter at fam Secrets Pot ats fam Secrets Pot. For 755 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot com