1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House top 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking about 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: school dress codes and uniforms and whether or not they 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: have a positive impact on student life and learning. And 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: a lot of public schools have been looking into this 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: dress code issue because while for private schools, dress codes 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: and uniforms are pretty common, but it's a newer thing 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: for public schools to enforce dress codes more strictly, something 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: we really have seen since little mid to late nineties. Yeah, 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: I I was a dress code kid. I went to 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: a private school from second grade to twelfth grade. Was 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: always in some sort of dress code. The tucking in 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: of the shirts, the wearing of collars and such. Did 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: you have a fingertip links or oh yeah, oh fingertip link. 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely your Your shorts and skirts had to be at 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: fingertip length or longer. And that meant that my mother 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: put me in some really embarrassing pleated shorts in middle school. 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: They just made you look proper also bunchie around the 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: waist well, as you can imagine. In home school, we 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: had very strict pajamas all the time, very strict dress codes. No, 22 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: we didn't have any dress codes. But in high school 23 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: I went to a private high school and there were 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: some funny changes that came about with a dress code 25 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: while I was still there. Um, when I started as 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: a freshman, they have the typical stuff of the fingertip 27 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: length rule, no spaghetti strap tank tops, stuff like that, 28 00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: no excessive logos. But then flip flops became really popular. 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: It's like those plastic flip flops couldn't do that. You 30 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: could get at Old Navy in a rainbow of colors 31 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: for like three bucks to pop, and since we're in 32 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: the South, this was great. You could basically wear them 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: year around and you could accessorize with them. Huh. Well, 34 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: my sophomore or junior year, they enforced a no quote 35 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: unquote shower shoes rule. The one time, Caroline that I 36 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: got sent to the principal's office, you bad kid in 37 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: high school was for my flip flops. I was in 38 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: a p Latin and my teacher looks down notices my 39 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: perfectly accessorized, cheap flip flops and said to me Kristin. Oh, 40 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: actually she said Paulina because that was my name in 41 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: guys Mine was Clara, and she sent me to the 42 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: principal's office and we had to have a discussion about 43 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: quote unquote shower shoes. How you were tearing this sciety apart. Well, 44 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: his whole argument was that it reflected poorly on our 45 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: school when visitors came along, Essentially that I didn't look 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: wealthy enough in my latrine footwear. So that was that. Yeah, 47 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't I got some demerits in high school because 48 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: I would try to sneak around not wearing a collared 49 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: shirt with pants. You know, you could wear an uncollared 50 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: shirt with skirts, that was fine, but if you're wearing 51 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: pants or shorts, you had to have a collar. So 52 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: I got some demerits for like I would try I 53 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: had longer hair and I would try to like cover 54 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: it over my collar. I don't know why I fought 55 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: that battle. That was not a battle worth fighting. Well, 56 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: I feel like in high school, especially and in middle school, 57 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: dresscoes were just asking for kids to start exercising their 58 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: earlier speech man, Yeah, for them to to get rebellious. 59 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: So let's talk about some dress code issues that have 60 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: come up and how schools have dealt with them, and 61 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: also how kids have pushed back not only for lax 62 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: or dress codes, but in some cases for more stringent 63 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: dress codes, as we will discuss. Yeah. One protest Kristen 64 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: that gained a lot of exposure get it dress code 65 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: pun Yeah, was at New York's stoy Vessant High School. Uh. 66 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: This was in The protest was called slutty Wednesday. They 67 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: were protesting the dress code that was adopted in fall 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: to combat clothing styles that the administration deemed unacceptable. Some 69 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: of those rules included that sayings and pictures on clothes 70 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: had to be in good taste. You couldn't have a 71 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: picture of like a beer mug on your shirt. U shorts, dresses, 72 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: and skirts have to extend at least beyond the fingertips, 73 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: and no shoulders, undergarments, middrifts, and lower backs could be exposed. 74 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: That sounds like that's not terrible, right, Yeah, that sounds 75 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: pretty standard. When I was reading that, at first, it 76 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: seemed like the kids were kind of getting up set 77 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: over nothing. But when you get into the details of 78 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: how the code was being enforced, it wasn't just a 79 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: thing of kids wanting to wear beer logo shirts to school, 80 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: but more of the fact that girls in particular were 81 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 1: being singled out, and not just you know, any girls, 82 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: it was certain girls with curb your body types. Um. 83 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: For instance, Jessica Valenti was wrote a post about this 84 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: for the Nation. She actually went to soy vest In 85 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: High school, and she quoted senior Lucinda Ventamiglia, who had 86 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 1: said that she'd been told that her skirts were technically 87 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: within the dress code, but they were too short for her, 88 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: and the school administrators told her that she was being 89 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: pulled aside for dress code for her own protection. That basically, 90 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: if she didn't follow the dress code and wear more 91 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: modest clothing, then she would be at risk of rape. Yeah, 92 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: so really really getting in that whole uh you're asking 93 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: for it thing early in life. A senior who helped 94 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: organize s Floody Wednesday, Benjamin Coates, said it's called slooty 95 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: Wednesday to symbolize that we're not actually slotty. I guess 96 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: these kids are just they're they're getting out there and 97 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: they're exercising their right too to protest. Yeah, because one 98 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: of the complaints too, was that the high school didn't 99 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: have the best air conditioning system, and New York summer 100 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: does get pretty hot, So they were arguing that it 101 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: was just it was hampering their learning environment because they 102 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: would be sweating all the time. Hey, I got in college. 103 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: I remember I got sent home from a class, not 104 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: me personally, but we all did because the air conditioning 105 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: was out. It was hot, it was like August. So 106 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it can hamper learning that they're 107 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: really hot. Northern schools get snow days, Southern schools get 108 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: air conditioners broken days, as they should well, So how 109 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: does this connect to Title nine? Some of these articles 110 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: and an article covering it in the New York Times 111 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: and Valencia's article in the Nation talk about Title nine, 112 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: and they talk about the way in which these women 113 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: the curve your students who are dealing with administrators pulling 114 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: them aside. The way that these women are targeted or 115 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: called out could fall under disparate impact. So, under this theory, 116 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: a recipient violates get ready for some fancy language. A 117 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: recipient violates agency regulations by using a neutral procedure or 118 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: practice that has a disparate impact on protected individuals or 119 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: a disproportionate impact on the basis of sex. So the 120 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: argument is that these dress codes could be in violation 121 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: of title nine because it really has a much greater 122 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: impact on how girls have to dress compared to guys. 123 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: And that was something that I experienced in high school 124 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: as well. Guys had to wear collared shirts and slacks 125 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: or shorts, but there of course was no issue about 126 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: finger to blank through rule and just all of the 127 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: and shower shoes. Guys are getting caught with with their 128 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: accessorized flip flops and being sent through the principal's office. Um, 129 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: but on the flip side of the whole slutty Wednesday thing, 130 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: there's also been a movement started by high school freshman 131 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: Sage Hatch at her high school for more modesty. Yeah. 132 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: Sage Hatch comes from a long line of Hatches. She's 133 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: a cousin of Republican Senator or In Hatch from Utah, 134 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: and she's the daughter of Brent and Felicia Hatch, authors 135 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: of Raising a G Rated Family in an X Rated World. 136 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: Her brother, her older brother, actually started the No Cussing 137 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: Club at their school, and she decided she wanted to 138 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: hop on this train of changing things for the better 139 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: in her mind, so she starts a modesty club after 140 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: seeing her peers wearing revealing clothes, and part of uh 141 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: the website about her honesty Club says, are bright, heroic 142 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: women are being made the fool. And then she illustrates 143 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: her penchant for parallelism. She says, a fool to think 144 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: that to be loved, they must be naked. To be noticed, 145 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: they must be sexualized. To be admired, they must be objectified. 146 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: And in response to her campaign for this modesty Club, 147 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: the city of Pasadena, California, ended up issuing a proclamation 148 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: declaring December three through seventh Modesty Week, which also happens 149 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: to be my birthday week. Well there you go, Kristen. 150 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: Correlation or causation, You tell me, Caroline. Now the thing 151 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: about hatches modesty Week. While she did get a lot 152 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: of flak from students about this, as you can imagine, 153 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: it is not the coolest thing to say, Hey, fellow teenagers, 154 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: let's put on more clothes. No slutty Wednesday. Far more 155 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: appealing to to youth. And I say that as a 156 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: former youth, um, But I mean I get where she's 157 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: coming from. She she has good intentions in terms of 158 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: saying women we don't need to to be sexualized and 159 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: objectified and all of that, But framing it in terms 160 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: of a Modesty Week and it being adopted by the city. 161 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: And it goes back to this whole thing of putting 162 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: the onus on women exclusively to make sure that they 163 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: don't dress in such a way that it might distract 164 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: men or possibly put them in danger of being targets 165 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: of sexual assault, even though study after study, research after 166 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: research finds that the relationship between what you're wearing and 167 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: sexual assault is null and void. That does not make 168 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: a difference. So we can go ahead and bust that myth. 169 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: And when Hatch was asked about Guy's participation in Modesty Club, 170 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: she was like, well, you know, we want them to 171 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: respect women, but they don't really need to change how 172 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: they're dressing. Yeah, because they're boys. Yeah. There is a 173 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: lot of concerns placed just on how young women dress 174 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: as opposed to men. And going back to that story 175 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: Vessant High School protest the dress code issues, Valenti quoted 176 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: principle Stanley Titel, who said, many young ladies wear denim 177 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: skirts which are very tight and are short to begin with, 178 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: and when they sit down, they only rise up because 179 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: there's no worlds to go. The bottom line is some 180 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,239 Speaker 1: things are a distraction, and we don't need to distract 181 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: students from what it is supposed to be going on here, 182 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: which is learning. And Valenti argues, hey, buddy, that's your problem. 183 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: It's not the responsibility of female students to mitigate the 184 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: male gaze. The real distraction, she says, is the shaming 185 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: and shameful way that this high school is treating women. 186 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: And so Riya Chimali over at the Huffington's Post on 187 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: February nineteenth of this year got into the fray, writing 188 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: about not only how like Christ and said the onus 189 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: is on young women, but also that LGBT kids are 190 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: facing the same issues. There are all these issues of 191 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: gender identity and how you dress at school and whether 192 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: that fits into this preset dress code. Yeah. The thing 193 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: that Shamali brings up that that is echoed over and 194 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: over and over again by school administrators who want to 195 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: enforce these stricter dress codes, is that whole distraction factor 196 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: of saying that if girls are dressed a certain way 197 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 1: or students addressed a certain way, showing too much skin, 198 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: being too provocative, then it's going to distract all of 199 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: these male students in particular, even though some of the 200 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: advocates on behalf of lax or dress codes for specifically 201 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: for girls, would say that, well, isn't it equally distracting 202 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: for girls to be like, not only concerned that what 203 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: they wear might be putting them at risk of something, 204 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: but that they are clearly and constantly being told that 205 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: they're the object x of you know, a sexual gaze, 206 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: that there's really no safe space for that. Yeah. And 207 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: then of course, you know, we get into the issue 208 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: of kids dressing against gender norms in school and how 209 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: big of a deal that is in high school. And 210 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: so everybody's saying, oh, it's so distracting, you know, if 211 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: you if you dress against your gender, if boys are 212 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: wearing wigs, all this stuff, and there are several reports 213 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: from the past couple of years of like actual safety 214 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: issues for some kids in high school. Yeah, I would 215 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: argue that these days, the gender identity stuff that comes 216 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: up with dress code enforcement is more crucial in a 217 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: way than the whole antiquated modesty argument um. For instance, 218 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, a Cobb County school which is 219 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: right near where are the land from which I hail? Yes, 220 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: Cob County School, send hime A male student who dressed 221 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: in women's clothes and wigs. I made national news. Actually, 222 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: in February two thousand eight, Lawrence King, who was an 223 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: eighth grader from oxnern California, who occasionally were high heeled 224 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: boots and makeup, was shot to death in class by 225 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,359 Speaker 1: another student. And in August two thousand nine, a Mississippi 226 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: Students senior portrait was barred from her yearbook because she 227 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: had posed in a tuxedo. Initially, she went in and 228 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, they put her in the traditional drape the 229 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: girls where, and she hated it so much. She even tried, 230 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, to go through with it, you know, to 231 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: kind of tow that line. But then she's like, you 232 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: know what, No, I want to do it in the text. 233 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: Is this the student whose mom ended up buying a 234 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: full page out in the yearbook to put a picture 235 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: of her daughter in a tuxedo so that it would 236 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: still make it into the yearbook. Yes? Um, So these 237 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: kinds of uh factors are are coming up a lot, because, yeah, 238 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: it's true that dress has always been away four teams 239 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: to communicate their evolving identities, and these days we are 240 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: seeing more gender fluidity as part of that and you 241 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: could argue that they should be allowed to explore those things, 242 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: and it could be a good thing for that to 243 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: be allowed in schools as a way of normalizing that 244 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: kind of gender, broadening gender spectrum to the students around them, 245 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: you know, to possibly protect them from harassment over time. Yeah, 246 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: I definitely agree with Diane Aaron Steft. He's a psychologist 247 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: who was quoted in The New York Times in two 248 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: thousand nine. She says this is really an issue of 249 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: a generational divide. She says, this generation is really challenging 250 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: the gender norms we grew up with. For them, gender 251 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: is a creative playing field. She also goes on to 252 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: say that adults these days have become the gender police 253 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: through dress codes. Now it's not so much just about 254 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: making sure girls skirts hit their fingertips, but it's also 255 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: becoming a gender issue. Yeah, I mean. And the thing is, 256 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: I can I can sympathize to a point with school 257 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: administrators who are a trying to run a school that 258 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: is just not easy to begin with. But now you know, 259 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: when you talk about dress codes, you're having to take 260 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: into account factors like anti discrimination policies, mental health factors, 261 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: community standards, the whole classroom distraction thing, safety factors. I mean, 262 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: it's become this huge issue that is not just solved 263 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: with a fingertipling rule or a no high heels for 264 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: boys rule. Um, because you also have people like ka Himnitz, 265 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: who's a senior fellow with the Manhattan Institute and also 266 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: the author of books such as The Plight of the 267 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: Alpha Female and Manning up how the rise of women 268 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: has turned men into boys, who has talked publicly about how, 269 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: you know, kids need to dress according to their traditional 270 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: gender roles in school because quote, it's hard enough to 271 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: get kids to concentrate on an algorithm even without Jimmy 272 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: sitting there in lipstick in fake eyelashes. So you could 273 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: line up her quote next to the principle who talked 274 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: about the denim skirt rising up, could you not? It's 275 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: the whole distraction thing. We don't want our kids distracting 276 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: other kids. And then there's also there is to the 277 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: question of safety, because dress codes are often enforced with 278 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: the idea that it would promote a safer learning environment. 279 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: But if those you know, those kids who might be 280 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: dressing outside the gender norm are called out so often 281 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: and and ostracized as a result of it. Aren't you 282 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: also endangering their safety at the same time. Yeah. Stephen Russell, 283 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: a University of Arizona professor, surveyed California high schoolers asking 284 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: why those students perceived as not as quote masculine or 285 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: feminine as others were harmful and the leading reason he 286 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: found that students gave was manner of dress. So maybe 287 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: kids are are absorbing those those messages that are being 288 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: sent through dress codes and um to, I mean, I 289 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: you see this doesn't Again, I don't want to oversimplify 290 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: this issue and just say like kids wear whatever they 291 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: want to school in any former fashion. Um. But I 292 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: think Diane Levin, who's a professor at wheel At College 293 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: in Boston who's looked into this, uh, makes a good 294 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: point when she says, don't just abandon the student. But 295 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: if it seems like the way a student is dressing 296 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: is problematic, you need to find out why are they 297 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: being sensations seeking? Can they keep the student? Can the 298 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: school keep a student safe in some way like kind 299 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: of figure out what's going on instead of just saying 300 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: go home, change your clothes. Yeah, and I think it's 301 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: worth noting I know we're talking about younger kids middle 302 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: school in high school, but I do think it's worth 303 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: noting that the University of Oxford in England, where I 304 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: have spent a summer, uh got rid of its rules 305 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: regarding gender specific academic clothing after concerns arose that the 306 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: policies were unfair to the transgender community. So previously, when 307 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: men and women went to formal occasions like exams, men 308 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: had to wear dark suits, socks, black shoes, white bow tie, 309 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: and plain white shirt under their gowns, whereas women had 310 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: to wear a dark skirt or trousers, white blouse, black stockings, shoes, 311 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: black ribbon in their hair, tied to bow. This this 312 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: it's very complicated. She is just to take a chest anyway. 313 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: As of August, men can choose to attend formal locations 314 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: and skirts and stockings and women in suits and white 315 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: bow ties. So if Oxford is adjusting, I mean I 316 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: think that signals kind of a sea change. But speaking 317 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: of Oxford and it's changing its uniform rules, maybe the 318 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: solution to all of this stuff, you know, to kind 319 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: of nip in the bud before it can even happen, 320 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: is to enforce uniforms for schools, because that would just 321 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: just strip the whole identity thing. You can jazz things 322 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,239 Speaker 1: up in certain ways, obviously, put your own spin on 323 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: your frock, but maybe school uniform ms are the answer. 324 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: And this was something that was looked into on the 325 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: public school level in the United States in the late 326 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. President Clinton actually instructed the Federal Education Department 327 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: to distribute school uniform Policy Manuals to all U S 328 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: school districts in nine six, and there was a big 329 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: push after that for school uniforms in public schools, especially 330 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: following the Columbine shootings, in thinking that if you can 331 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: kind of eliminate these differences between these different groups of 332 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: kids at school and just make it everybody look the same, 333 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna solve a lot of problems and everyone will 334 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: be safer, and everyone will be the most popular. Yeah, 335 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: it's just like a not a serf song. Yeah. Um, well, 336 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: I mean it doesn't entirely work out that way, and 337 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: we'll go into that here in a second. Um, but 338 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: no state so far has legislatively mandated school uniforms. I 339 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: think there might be an uprising. Do you think I 340 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: feel like people would be like not in my backyard. Well, 341 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: that's the thing in the United States. People, as soon 342 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: as you start talking about enforcing dress codes in public schools. 343 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: Private schools, you know, they can do what they want 344 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: pretty much, but with public schools, you're gonna have someone 345 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: at least raised the issue of First Amendment freedom of speech. 346 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: Although I will say that the courts have traditionally recognized 347 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: the unique needs of the school environment. But still it 348 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: would probably cost a lot of money, not to mention time, 349 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: if the state wanted to pass a blanket rule like 350 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: that for all public schools. Right. As for the effects 351 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: of uniforms, a lot of the stuff out there is 352 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: just anecdotal evidence, you know, like, uh, we put a 353 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: uniform rule in this school, and kids started paying more 354 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: attention or they started behaving better. A lot of information 355 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: out there is coming from conveniently enough uniform companies. Yeah, 356 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: company is that make those special plaid skirts um French toast, 357 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: which is you know, quote unquote official school where tells 358 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: us that there was a seven percent increase in public 359 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: school uniforms in the US, one hundred and fifty thousand 360 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: more kids wearing them. They say that uniforms create an 361 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: enhanced climate for learning, helping students to focus again, getting 362 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: rid of those daily distractions, that they boost school unity 363 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: and pride. Everybody looks the same, they're all wearing the 364 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: school color, so yeah, ra rao school. And they also 365 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: say that uniforms encourage self expression outside of your clothing, 366 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,959 Speaker 1: so that you're forced to be like, I don't know, 367 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: more artistic personally instead of through your shirts or skirts, 368 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: I will exhibit my lively personality through my high scores 369 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: on science tests. Perfect. That's what everybody's going for it. 370 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: And they make arguments about safety and security that it 371 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: eliminates clothes used to intimidate or conceal contraband, and it 372 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: helps you easily identify outsiders, you know, if somebody's you know, 373 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: wearing jeans and that a sea of uniform pants. They 374 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: also argue that uniforms are cost effective, although French toasts 375 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: reasoning for this mostly falls in line with their own pricing. 376 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: They're like, it's cost effective. Meanwhile, why don't you go 377 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: over and look at our shirts that you can buy. Um, 378 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: there are a lot of questions of price because one 379 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: of the arguments of you know, don't institute a uniform 380 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: policy in my school, you know, or in my district 381 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: or whatever is can parents afford it? Is it actually 382 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: a financial availability to all families. And I think there's 383 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: this piece we read about UK public schools where the 384 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: author argues that if we made some changes, maybe it 385 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: could be available to all. Yeah, because in the UK, 386 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: uh it's standard for public school kids who wear uniforms. 387 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: And the author, Angela Walmsley, who was writing in a 388 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: fi Capain magazine in March two thousand eleven, talked about 389 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: how uniforms in the UK are very cost effective because 390 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: since all the schools require them, then that you know, 391 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: gets the market and motion to drive the prices down 392 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: a bit because you have to have competitive prices if 393 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 1: you want to move these uniforms off the shelf. And 394 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: she also talks about how you know the schools in 395 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: the UK because it is at every school they're not 396 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: pushing those special plaids. They're saying, you know you have 397 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: to wear like khaki pants, are black pants and a 398 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: white polo shirt. Well, you can buy a white polo 399 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: shirt in a lot of places. It's not like when 400 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: you're in the US, you know, or you know, for 401 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: my for instance, in my school, we didn't have uniforms. 402 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: We had a dress code, but towards the end of 403 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: my time in high school, a lot of the girls 404 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: that I went to school with, we're so fed up 405 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: with how strict and seemingly arbitrary at times our dress 406 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: code was that they started pushing for uniforms. But the 407 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: uniforms they went for were that special play, strangely not 408 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: in our school colors, but anyway, yeah, they actually were 409 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: very pricey. Yeah, I mean, and anecdotally, when I was 410 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: in high school, I would have totally been on board 411 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: with school uniforms, if only to eliminate the stress of 412 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: getting dressed every morning and going into a sartorially competitive environment, 413 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: because unlike being in a larger public school, where I'm 414 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: sure the same thing still happens, but I was in 415 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: a private school where I had a class of sixty 416 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: other kids, and if you weren't wearing, you know, a 417 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: snappy outfit, you did stand out and people did talk 418 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: about you. And because it was a pricey school, people 419 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: knew about labels, and I was not one of the 420 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: rich kids who could wear all the labels. So it 421 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 1: would have been awesome to have uniforms. Although I remember 422 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: talking about that with friends of mind at school, and 423 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: we realized that the whole label competition would simply trickle 424 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: down to where like you would have to wear amazing 425 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: expensive shoes or I have to get i don't know, 426 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: hair extensions or something. You know. We would always handbags. 427 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: Oh my god, people want crazy over handbags. Like there's 428 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: always going to be some kind of conspicuous consumption going 429 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: on whether you have uniforms or not. But still would 430 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: have made matching my outfits easier. Yeah, for sure, there's 431 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: less stress in the morning. And I'm sure. I mean 432 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: I I did have friends who went to schools with uniforms, 433 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: and I remember my mom talking to their moms, you know, 434 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: and and there was, yes, more, maybe more of a 435 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: cost upfront because you have to buy this many skirts 436 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: or trousers or shirts or whatever from the special uniform company. 437 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: But eventually it evens out because you're not buying fifty 438 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: different types of shirts so that your daughter can pick 439 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: from all of these things to where during the week 440 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, well you have the uniform and then 441 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: you have weekend clothes in church clothes or whatever. Yeah, 442 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: it seems much simpler um. But the one thing though, 443 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: we haven't gone much into is whether or not, outside 444 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: of just a sense of well being and maybe saving 445 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: some time in the morning, whether uniforms and stricter dress 446 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: codes do have an impact, Because even though I think 447 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: that we would like to think in a way that 448 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: at least adults through an adult perspective, I can totally 449 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: see where it's coming from. Maybe for kids not so much, 450 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: but I think that we would like to think that 451 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: making everything look nicer at school will make kids learn 452 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: better and make the teaching environment easier and more manageable. 453 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: But over and over again, as you've mentioned, that research 454 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: is scarce in terms of any kind of statistically significant 455 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: results one way or the other. Yeah. Yeah, a lot 456 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: of these studies are just saying like, well, I mean, 457 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: some kids did better, some kids did worse. Uh. There 458 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: was a University of Houston study from that found there 459 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: was a slightly better impact for the female students at 460 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: the schools that they surveyed. They looked at a hundred 461 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: and sixties schools in a large urban district from all 462 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: the way to two thousand six, and the findings showed 463 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: bolstered attendance, academics, and behavior in middle and high school 464 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: students once their schools adopted uniforms, with the biggest improvement 465 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: among girls. Yeah, they found that the school district was 466 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: more likely to retain female students at all grade levels 467 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: once they started wearing the uniforms. But that doesn't take 468 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: into account whether or not different teaching methods were changed 469 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: other factors. There's so many variables that go into you know, 470 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: student retention, student learning that while uniforms might seem like 471 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: an easy fix for it, clearly from the mixed results 472 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: of all the studies we found, it's not some kind 473 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: of magic it right. And one former New Jersey school 474 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: board official, Matt Busing, wrote in The School Administrator back 475 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: in April, Listen, adopting uniforms is not a silver bullet 476 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: for problems in a school. Uniform policies or dress code 477 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: policies depending should be a part of a larger school 478 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: reform effort. So, Okay, you're gonna put your kids in 479 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: uniforms to make them feel safer or more you know, 480 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: proud of their school, but you also need to take 481 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: into account teaching methods, getting parents involved, you know, extracurriculars. 482 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: Like they're right, there are so many variables school uniforms 483 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: aren't just going to magically fix everything that's wrong with 484 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: your school or your district. Yeah, especially because the thinking 485 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: for a lot of public school districts in the United 486 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: States is that you enforce uniforms in the you know, 487 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: the poorest school districts, and you don't address any of 488 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: the community issues that are going on to where you 489 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: know that if the kids have no support order to 490 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: go like after school, like, no, you're not going to have, 491 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, a healthy and happy learning environment just because 492 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: that child is dressed just like the other child sitting 493 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: next to him or her. Um. So, the question of 494 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: whether or not school dress codes and uniforms are good 495 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: for students, it seems like a toss up. It depends. Yeah, 496 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: it could be. I have a feeling that for high 497 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: school students who are listening and middle school students. I 498 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: know we have some middle schoolers out there who are 499 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: listening to this, the answer might be no, absolutely not, 500 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: or I don't know. Again, It's like some kids might 501 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: be more for a sloody Wednesday kind of thing, and 502 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: other kids might be like I was and wishing that 503 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: I could wear the exact same thing every day to 504 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: school to make life easier. Um. But for parents. Just 505 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: from reading comments on my articles about school dress codes, 506 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: it seems like there is you can track the age 507 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: of a person's child and how much they really, really 508 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: really want a dress code in force. The older those 509 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: kids get, the more parents are like, just get a 510 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: uniform on them already. My mom loved buying Ni clothes 511 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: to the point where I was like, Mom, I'm nineteen, 512 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,719 Speaker 1: stop buying me. Oh. My mom was the opposite. Nance 513 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: is not a fan of shopping. But no, my mom 514 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: will walk by a store and she'll be like, oh 515 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: my gosh, look at those smock dresses. She doesn't talk 516 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: like that. I don't know, it's just in my head, 517 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: but yeah, no, my mom still wishes she could dress 518 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: me and not in uniforms. I'd like to see what 519 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: she would pull for you. Smock dresses, uh, Lily Pulitzer, 520 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: lots of pink. My my initials would be embroidered on everything. Yeah, 521 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: there was a lot of monogramming that went on at 522 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: my at my high school. Okay, before I have a 523 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,959 Speaker 1: panic attack thinking about my high school days, go ahead 524 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: and send us your thoughts. I'll be curious to hear 525 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: from students from teachers from parents out there on school 526 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: dress codes and uniforms. Does it help if your kid 527 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: does wear a uniform? Have you noticed a difference in 528 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: learning happiness all of that? Mom Step at Discovery dot 529 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: com is where you can send your letters. You can 530 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: also send a message on Facebook. And now, Kristen, let's 531 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: read some letters. Well, we've got a couple of letters 532 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: here in response to our Transgender one oh one episode, 533 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: and you've found some really positive feedback from that episode, 534 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: which makes me really happy. So I'm going to read 535 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: this letter, for instance, from Jojo. Just got done listening 536 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: to the podcast, and I just had to say that 537 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: I always appreciate when people bring up transgender issues and struggles. 538 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm transgender myself and even learned a thing or two 539 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: today about myself and people like me in other countries. 540 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: For me personally, I don't mind if people ask me questions, 541 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: so long as they do so with respect that you'd 542 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: expect from anyone. Anyhow, keep up the good work, So 543 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: thank you, Jojo, and I I have a very similarly 544 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: positive email from Lisa uh. Lisa says, I want to 545 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: give you a pat on the back for a job 546 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: well done on your Transgender one on one podcast, Why 547 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: thank you. I'm patting myself on the back as we 548 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: speak as the founder of Transgender Education Network of Texas 549 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: and a long time trans advocate. When I see a 550 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: media outlet doing a piece on transgender issues, my first 551 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: reaction is to cringe. And it's a bit Most people, 552 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 1: well meaning as they are, typically get some things very wrong. 553 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: You guys got it right all right. Thank you for that. 554 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: Your piece was well researched, insightful, and respectful. When the 555 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: mainstream CIS world brings our issues to their audience, it 556 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: makes the world better for gender diverse people everywhere. In 557 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: our struggle. We have always said the education is the key. 558 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: The more people know us, the more they will treat 559 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: us with respect. Thank you for moving the ball forward, 560 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: no pun intended. So thank you, Lisa, and thanks to 561 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: everyone who's written into mom stuff at Discovery dot com. 562 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: And don't forget to head over to Facebook and like 563 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: us over there while you're at it, because we do 564 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: a lot of fun things on Facebook, such as our 565 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: Women's History Month project where Caroline and I dressed up 566 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: in costumes and posted some we hope entertaining pictures of 567 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: ourselves like female stereotypes and icons. So if you have 568 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: no idea what I'm talking about, that means you haven't 569 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: been to our Facebook page, so go over there before 570 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: you do anything else, But there is no microphone to 571 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: click in the corner of the page. You can also 572 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on 573 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: Tumbler as well. We're at stuff Mom Never Told You 574 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: dot tumbler dot com, and as always, during the week, 575 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: you can make yourself smarter at our website, it's how 576 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands 577 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: of other topics, does it how stuff works dot com.