1
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,400
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Savor Protection of IHA Radio. I'm

2
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,200
Speaker 1: Anne Reese and I'm Lauren voc Obam and today we're

3
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:19,319
Speaker 1: talking about tika masala, uh the cravings. Yes, oh yes,

4
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,040
Speaker 1: this is uh y'all. I did the research for this

5
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,639
Speaker 1: yesterday and I immediately ordered a lot of Indian take

6
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,480
Speaker 1: out that night. I looked up how to make chicken

7
00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,519
Speaker 1: tika Masala and was immediately deterred. Not because it was

8
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,640
Speaker 1: super hard, but I just didn't have a lot of

9
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,760
Speaker 1: that stuff like that would have been a lot of substitutions.

10
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's it's a pretty you

11
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: can make substitutions. But um, but yes, to have maybe

12
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,840
Speaker 1: a half I would say half of different things. That's

13
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,600
Speaker 1: a different dish at that point, probably, yes, But I do.

14
00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,000
Speaker 1: I love chicken Tikka Masala. I have made it before,

15
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,960
Speaker 1: just not now. Unfortunately. I will say I ate a

16
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,680
Speaker 1: lot of it when I was in Britain, but not

17
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,080
Speaker 1: a lot of it at all when I was in India,

18
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,240
Speaker 1: which might might speak to its history, which is a teaser,

19
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,319
Speaker 1: yes spoiler, omg um. Yeah, it's it's not a it's

20
00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,400
Speaker 1: not it's not my favorite dish, but it's tasty. Um.

21
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,920
Speaker 1: I just got a big old tray of it from

22
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,080
Speaker 1: your decab farmers market a couple of weeks ago, and

23
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 1: it was a really really really nice, really nice comfort food.

24
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,560
Speaker 1: It is indeed mm hmmm. And doing this this research

25
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,759
Speaker 1: reminded me of when we got to interview mir Juana Ronie,

26
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: Who's who's a chef who's gotten for dayg James Beard

27
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 1: nominations for serving Indian street food at his restaurants in Asheville,

28
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 1: North Carolina and here in Atlanta. UM but because he

29
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 1: explained that the foods that are served, especially beface style

30
00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: at many Indian restaurants in the United States, uh are

31
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,640
Speaker 1: are what he calls like wedding banquet food um, stuff

32
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 1: that most folks in India would only eat at like

33
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 1: a kind of fancy catered party um. And And furthermore,

34
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,840
Speaker 1: that like that's saying Indian food like it's a monolith

35
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,839
Speaker 1: is pretty ridiculous to begin with, because India has over

36
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,799
Speaker 1: a billion people with just like countless regional food stuffs

37
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,959
Speaker 1: and recipes and preferences and traditions and influences. So it's

38
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,760
Speaker 1: not just the one thing. Oh yeah, And that was

39
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 1: certainly my experience when I was in India. I loved

40
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 1: hearing conversations about Northern Indian food versus Southern Indian food

41
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: and then breaking it down even more than that. And

42
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 1: I love, how ever, because I did get to travel

43
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,640
Speaker 1: pretty pretty widely when I was in India and just

44
00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 1: you know, everybody wants to share that special dish from

45
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,960
Speaker 1: their region, and it was so different. Um, and China

46
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,280
Speaker 1: is the same way. I I'm pretty sure I've told

47
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,600
Speaker 1: this story before, but in my experience, most of Chinese

48
00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,360
Speaker 1: food in the United States and specifically from Hong Kong,

49
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,400
Speaker 1: and that's like it. Yeah, And it's just so it

50
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 1: is a huge category of all these different different food

51
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,840
Speaker 1: items and taste and and it was all delicious and

52
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:21,079
Speaker 1: I miss it and crave it almost all the time. Yeah. Oh,

53
00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:22,960
Speaker 1: it's so hard with foods that you can't you just

54
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,799
Speaker 1: can't get around here. Yeah, I know. And some of them,

55
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 1: I don't even know what they were, Like, I can't

56
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:33,000
Speaker 1: even share. Okay, I think it was tofu. It's not

57
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,720
Speaker 1: like I do what I've had. I bought that up

58
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,640
Speaker 1: before and somebody did help me find out what that

59
00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 1: might have been. It's like a b noodle sheep thing.

60
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 1: It sounds weird, but it's delicious. Oh I believe you anyway. Anyway, Uh,

61
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 1: let's get to our question. Redirect Tikka masala. What is it? Well, uh,

62
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 1: Tika masala can be many things, but at its heart,

63
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,840
Speaker 1: it's a It's a dish of like chunks of usually

64
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 1: some kind of protein simmered in a purid tomato sauce

65
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,120
Speaker 1: with some kind of dairy yogurt and or cream and

66
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,920
Speaker 1: some kind of oil, preferably ghee, which is a brown

67
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,479
Speaker 1: clarified butter to make that purid tomato sauce creamy um.

68
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,159
Speaker 1: And then that sauce is spiced warm with a with

69
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 1: a blend including things like coriander, human cardamom, cloves, cinnamon,

70
00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,200
Speaker 1: things that don't start with the letter C, like turmericum, peppercorns,

71
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,920
Speaker 1: plus some ginger, garlic, an onion, maybe chili paste or

72
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 1: chili powder. The protein is often chicken, but can be

73
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 1: anything from goat to fish to chunks of semisoft fresh cheese,

74
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,919
Speaker 1: paneer um. And the result is this rich, saucy, savory

75
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,679
Speaker 1: dish that's served hot with a rice and or flat

76
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 1: bread like the like just the most stalwart, creamy tomato soup.

77
00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,400
Speaker 1: I love it, I love it. Yeah. Another art project

78
00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 1: creamy Tomatoes soup. I'm gonna shop this excellent. Uh but

79
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 1: but yeah yeah, So let's break all of this down

80
00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 1: just a little bit more though, because okay, as as

81
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 1: I understand it, tica basically means um bits or pieces

82
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,159
Speaker 1: of stuff, and most often indicates that the stuff in

83
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,719
Speaker 1: question has been marinated in yogurt and lemon juice and

84
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,240
Speaker 1: spices and then grilled like hot and quick until it's

85
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 1: charred on the outside and juicy on the inside, so good.

86
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,479
Speaker 1: Um and massala um just means spices and indicates like

87
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,919
Speaker 1: a like a blend of ground spices, and what's in

88
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,719
Speaker 1: that blend will will vary depending on the cook and

89
00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,800
Speaker 1: on the blend's purpose. Um like uh like like Rani Marwana.

90
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,720
Speaker 1: Rani Um also has a brand of packaged spices called

91
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,640
Speaker 1: Spice Walla. It's excellent. They ship check them out if

92
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 1: you're looking for spices right now. Um but but yeah,

93
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,120
Speaker 1: they sell like a tender massala a pecora, massala chi,

94
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,080
Speaker 1: massala chop massala um. You know, blends that are inspired

95
00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 1: by or intended for each of those dishes. So it's

96
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 1: just a spice blend um, and the ingredients in the

97
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:09,200
Speaker 1: tender and masala include garam masala. So so it's a

98
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,000
Speaker 1: it's a spice blend within a spice blend um and

99
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 1: and garum. By the way, it just means hot um.

100
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,679
Speaker 1: But but it's like heating, not in the hot spicy sense,

101
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,279
Speaker 1: but rather in like the rivetic sense of of warming

102
00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 1: the body. Okay, yeah anyway, so like so like properly,

103
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 1: your tica masala should be a marinated, grilled protein that's

104
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,520
Speaker 1: then stewed in your spiced sauce or covered with your

105
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 1: spiced sauce. So lots of recipes call for just stewing.

106
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 1: You can totally make it at home. Um, and and

107
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,360
Speaker 1: you can. You can. You can adapt the recipe because

108
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,880
Speaker 1: it's it's not what I would call a very strict recipe.

109
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:56,200
Speaker 1: All right, I have best interceived. I will try again, um,

110
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 1: and I do ask someone who has made it at

111
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 1: home before. I do highly recommend you at home. It's

112
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: one of those things where you, at least in my case,

113
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,200
Speaker 1: I never thought about making it at home. It seemed difficult,

114
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:07,680
Speaker 1: and then when I did it, I was like, ah,

115
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 1: what accomplishment, delicious delicious accomplishment. Oh yeah, yes, well what

116
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 1: about the nutrition. It depends on how you do make it.

117
00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 1: It can get kind of heavy with the with the

118
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 1: cream and the and the gee or butter or whatever

119
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 1: fats you're using um. And for sure, you know it's

120
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 1: best to pair it with them with a little bit

121
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,480
Speaker 1: more vegetables for a boost of vitamins and dietary fiber.

122
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 1: But you know it's got a lot of protein um

123
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 1: and then at minimum decent amount of fat um. So

124
00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,360
Speaker 1: served with rice or bread, it will fill you up

125
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,480
Speaker 1: and it will keep you going. Just you know, watch

126
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,200
Speaker 1: your portion sizes. Eat a vegetable. Always a proponent of

127
00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 1: eating a vegetable. Dam Yes, and we do have some

128
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,680
Speaker 1: numbers for you, specically when it comes to chicken taica

129
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: mas salad or in the biz as it's called CTM.

130
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,560
Speaker 1: That that's no joke. They use that all over the

131
00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,440
Speaker 1: place when I was researching this popular dish all over,

132
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 1: although some South Asians are disappointed by that fact again

133
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 1: according to some very opinionated articles there. According to the economists,

134
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,360
Speaker 1: two point five billion pounds of the dish are consumed

135
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,080
Speaker 1: every year as of two thousand nine, and it is

136
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,840
Speaker 1: one of the most popular dishes in the United Kingdom.

137
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,000
Speaker 1: I think it's in the top ten delivered um dishes.

138
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,520
Speaker 1: Heinz sells a packaged version. Oh yeah, Harmel also makes fun.

139
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,360
Speaker 1: There are lots of packaged versions out there, from from

140
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,640
Speaker 1: like frozen and ready to heat and eat versions to

141
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,959
Speaker 1: like canned sauces two prepared spice blends. It really is

142
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,719
Speaker 1: quite a phenomenon, especially in the UK. Like Marks and

143
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 1: Spencer sells prepackaged chicken ticamasala sandwiches. Um, that's like if

144
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 1: our like CVS or something had them. Um McDonald added

145
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 1: a version of chicken Ticamasala to their limited time Indian

146
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,959
Speaker 1: inspired menu back in two thousand one. It's a whole thing.

147
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,560
Speaker 1: It is a whole thing. And what else is a

148
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,800
Speaker 1: whole thing is the history and the debate around it. Yeah,

149
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,120
Speaker 1: because if you if you couldn't, if you couldn't tell yes,

150
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:15,080
Speaker 1: this is more of a UK thing than an India thing. Um,

151
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,240
Speaker 1: and so so there, so there's been some some some

152
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 1: conversation about that, Yeah, conversation. We'll say, yeah, and we

153
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,520
Speaker 1: will get into that. But first we're going to take

154
00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 1: a quick break for a word from our sponsor, and

155
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,560
Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you so yes,

156
00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,200
Speaker 1: as we hinted at, the history of this one is

157
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 1: highly debated and very contentious. Is it an Indian dish,

158
00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 1: is it actually from Britain, is it there riff on

159
00:09:53,920 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 1: curry or is it specifically from Glasgow, Scotland. Because depending

160
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 1: on who you ask, you will get just a huge

161
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:10,320
Speaker 1: variety of yes, yes, yes, and opinions. One popular story

162
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,520
Speaker 1: does place the dish's origins too, specifically the nineteen seventies

163
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 1: and specifically Glasgow, Scotland, as the creation of Pakistani chef

164
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,360
Speaker 1: Ali Ahmad Oslam. Oslam was the chef of a well

165
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 1: known authentic curry house in that city, Glasgow, called shish Mahal.

166
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 1: After a customer sent chicken back to the kitchen for

167
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,160
Speaker 1: being dry, Aslam, who was on an all liquid diet

168
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,040
Speaker 1: due to an ulcer, added some tomato soup out of

169
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,520
Speaker 1: a can. Story goes spices to the dish and then

170
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 1: in some versions he added in yogurt based on the

171
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,400
Speaker 1: chicken tika that he used to make and that he likes,

172
00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: and to a surprise, the customer loved it and became

173
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,520
Speaker 1: a regular customer and brought all of his friends and

174
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,200
Speaker 1: introduced all of his friends to this dish, and the

175
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,360
Speaker 1: word spread and the popularity grew. It was soon found

176
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 1: out throughout the UK and that is how that version goes.

177
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:11,479
Speaker 1: It is very popularly told. No legit proof zero, Yeah, yeah,

178
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,840
Speaker 1: not at all. Food critic Rahul Verma weighed in on

179
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 1: the tica masala debate with it's basically a Punjabi dish

180
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 1: not more than forty fifty years old and must be

181
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 1: an accidental discovery which has had periodical improvisations. According to him,

182
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 1: he tasted what was basically chicken tika masala as a

183
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:36,120
Speaker 1: street food in Uttar Pradesh earlier than this whole Glasgow story. Yes,

184
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 1: but okay. In two thousand and nine, a labor MP,

185
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:48,520
Speaker 1: Mohammed Sarwar formally requested that Parliament officially named Glasgow as

186
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,079
Speaker 1: the birthplace of chicken Tikka Masala and the European Union

187
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:58,120
Speaker 1: protected geographical status that comes with it. Yeah yeah, like

188
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,320
Speaker 1: like Champagne level. That's what he on it for chicken

189
00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 1: tikka masala. It did not make it to debate. I

190
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: think that's probably for the good of all of us,

191
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,400
Speaker 1: probably probably Lauren. And this was after a two thousand

192
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 1: one attempt by the then Foreign Secretary of Britain to

193
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:21,520
Speaker 1: name chicken Tikka Masala as the national dish. And here

194
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 1: is a quote. Chicken Tikka Masala is now a true

195
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,080
Speaker 1: Britain national dish, not only because it is the most popular,

196
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 1: but because it is a perfect illustration of the way

197
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,320
Speaker 1: Britain absorbs and adapts external influences. Chicken tika is an

198
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 1: Indian dish. The massala sauce was added to satisfy the

199
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,439
Speaker 1: desire of British people to have their meat served in gravy.

200
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 1: And he and he meant this as a as a

201
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,880
Speaker 1: positive Um very much to me, a perfect illustration of

202
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,319
Speaker 1: the way Britain absorbs and adapts external influences. Sounds a

203
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,559
Speaker 1: little bit negative when you consider colonialism, um, but he

204
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 1: but he meant it to be a positive of he did.

205
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,560
Speaker 1: And it will come as no surprise that many people

206
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 1: saw it, like you, Lauren, especially people from India who

207
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,520
Speaker 1: very much some of them very much resented this, seeing

208
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 1: it as something that the British stole um during colonialism

209
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 1: and brought back and maybe made it their own. But

210
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,160
Speaker 1: it's still originated in India and that maybe the British

211
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,440
Speaker 1: adapted it, but they were erasing the true history and

212
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 1: painting that erasure with a positive brush of being multicultural. Um.

213
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,000
Speaker 1: Some experts contend that the dish was a product of

214
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,840
Speaker 1: the British in British India unable to handle the spice

215
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,240
Speaker 1: of chicken tica. Um. So that's kind of like origin

216
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: story number two. Yeah, but but yes, this whole thing

217
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,360
Speaker 1: was a was a whole to do um. Critics of

218
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 1: the Foreign Secretaries praise called chicken tica masala innocuous curry

219
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,720
Speaker 1: and and accused the British at large of having an

220
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 1: appetite for only quote the easiest form of exoticism mhm,

221
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:17,400
Speaker 1: also a magpie, indiscriminacy wow, and amended insularity. Those are

222
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: some harsh takedowns. Those certainly are those. Those are quotes,

223
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 1: by the way, from a book called Food Quality and

224
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 1: Consumer Value Delivering food that Satisfies. And the latter two

225
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,240
Speaker 1: are further quoted in that from an article that doesn't

226
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 1: appear to be online um, but decided as being from

227
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 1: The Times from two thousand one. The article being titled

228
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 1: Goodness Gracious chicken Tika smacks of our capability for self

229
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:44,560
Speaker 1: delusion of a pretty great title. I wish I could

230
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 1: read that article. It sounds like an absolute It sounds

231
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 1: like an absolute smash it does. We can dream one day. Yeah.

232
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,600
Speaker 1: From Lizzy Collingham's book Curry, A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors, quote,

233
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 1: it was not a shining example of British multiculturalism, but

234
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,080
Speaker 1: a demonstration of the British facility for reducing all foreign

235
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 1: foods to their most unappetizing and inedible forms. Oh snap, snap, indeed, gosh,

236
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 1: that is okay, okay. You can say, what do you

237
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 1: want to about the origins of chicken tika masala, but

238
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,640
Speaker 1: it is not the least appetizing or the least edible

239
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,359
Speaker 1: form of anything. That is a pretty harsh the least edible.

240
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 1: But people, they got strong opinions about this. They do,

241
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 1: they do. It's true, that's fair, it's true. Uh okay,

242
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's that whole to do as you said.

243
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: There is another popular story about chicken tika masala's origins

244
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,040
Speaker 1: that argues that tika masala was invented by someone of

245
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 1: Bangladeshi descent in Britain. Food historians Colleen and Peter Grove

246
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,160
Speaker 1: are big proponent of this theory, pointing to a nineteen

247
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,600
Speaker 1: sixty one recipe from Baal Beer Sings for Shahai Chicken

248
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 1: Massala published in the book Indian Cookery. Peter Grove claims

249
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 1: that the Glasgow story was a rumor that he created

250
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 1: two appeased journalists. Okay, he got so tired of like

251
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 1: fielding calls about it, he just made up this story,

252
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:28,520
Speaker 1: according to him. Um the Groves also argued that buttered

253
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 1: chicken was the original chicken teaco Massala and placed that

254
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 1: dish's origins to a new Delhi restaurant called Moti Mahal

255
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 1: that opened its doors in nineteen. According to them, the

256
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 1: chef worked with a local man to create the first

257
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 1: tan doory spice mix, which was black pepper, ground coriander

258
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 1: and a mild red pepper. They then used that to

259
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,600
Speaker 1: marinate their chicken, and not wanting to waste the resulting

260
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 1: flavored chicken juice, the cooks added butter and tomato to it. Yeah.

261
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 1: The story here goes that the chef um Kundan Lal

262
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: was also the first person to use a tan door oven,

263
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,879
Speaker 1: which is is traditionally used for breads to cook this

264
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,800
Speaker 1: marinated chicken and then this cooked cubed tandoried chicken was

265
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 1: then tossed in that sace. There you go, butter chicken.

266
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,800
Speaker 1: It was a pretty immediate hit, and it's spread throughout

267
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,639
Speaker 1: the country and from there the world. So the story

268
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 1: goes yeah yeah, yeah, but but this story UM. Experts

269
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,520
Speaker 1: in food history in this region do support the story. UM.

270
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 1: And today Law's grandson still owns the family restaurant and

271
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: has like expanded the brand to a hundred and twenty

272
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: restaurants in India, plus franchises in the Middle East, in

273
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,040
Speaker 1: Africa and New Zealand. Um. He's also got cookbooks, all

274
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff going on. It's it's a it's a

275
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: really fascinating little little slice yeah. Uh. And then another

276
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: piece of this chicken tika Masala puzzle is that in

277
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 1: the sixties there was an influx of Bangladeshi people to

278
00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:02,160
Speaker 1: the United Kingdom and many of them opened Indian restaurants

279
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:09,160
Speaker 1: with westernized dishes like chicken tica masala. So there's that uh.

280
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: And then certainly from articles I read, there are some

281
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,400
Speaker 1: Indian chefs that said there's nothing called chicken tica masala

282
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 1: in India. Some argue that even so, it is still

283
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 1: an Indian dish. It's just popular everywhere else. But in

284
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,960
Speaker 1: Um Hong Kong, Indian restaurant owner ashitash Bish makes the

285
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,159
Speaker 1: case that the tica part goes back five thousand years

286
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 1: when the clay tandor ovens were invented. The first emperor

287
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 1: of the Mughal dynasty barber who he was worried about

288
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 1: choking on bones, so he ordered his chefs to get

289
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 1: rid of the bones. During medieval times, that's when that

290
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 1: probably would have happened. A chef at Delhi's Kareem Hotel

291
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 1: claimed that the nineteen sixty one recipe that we mentioned

292
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 1: earlier has been passed down from generation to generation and

293
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:02,400
Speaker 1: his family, making it truly of Indian descent. Okay, yeah,

294
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 1: I cannot personally argue with with any of these, but

295
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: I love that that's officially three and a half for

296
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:15,640
Speaker 1: Ish origin stories. Cool. A lot of people making claims

297
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 1: they do they do UM and at any rate. UM

298
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 1: in the City Council in Salisbury, England kind of put

299
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 1: their foot in it really hard when UM when they

300
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: informed a local street food vendor that she could not

301
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 1: sell chicken tika masala at a St. George's Day celebration UM,

302
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 1: which is the feast day for St. George, which is

303
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 1: the patron saint of England, because they said this this festival,

304
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: all the dishes sold at it had to be English

305
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: themed and apparently, according to them, Chicken Tika Masala didn't

306
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 1: didn't make the grade um but there was a kerfuffle.

307
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,040
Speaker 1: They later apologized and invited her and her chick and

308
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: Tika Masala back. So whoa, yeah, I didn't know. So

309
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 1: many like recent like politicians try at the National Food

310
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: I got a career fuffle out of St. George's Day celebration. Yeah, wow,

311
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,199
Speaker 1: you know I I had always just thought of it

312
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,400
Speaker 1: as a as a tasty comfort food, kind of kind

313
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 1: of warm and spicy mm hmm, yeah, delicious with non

314
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: I yeah, I did not know. I did not know,

315
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 1: and now we do. And so do you listeners. Well,

316
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 1: I mean we know that a lot of people have

317
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 1: a lot of different theories. That's really all we can

318
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 1: offer you at this juncture. Yeah, pretty pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

319
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 1: So if you have any information on the history of

320
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 1: Chicken Tikka Masala, I mean we your all ears absolutely yes, yes,

321
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,360
Speaker 1: And speaking of we do have some listener mail for you.

322
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: We do. But first we've got one more quick break

323
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank

324
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 1: you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with listener nom.

325
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 1: It's my face when I realized that I'm not going

326
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of my history section. I'll

327
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 1: never know mysteries, histories. It's true, so many of them,

328
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: so many of them. Um for a listener mail. Today

329
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: we have two messages about Girl Scout cookies. But in Canada,

330
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: Aaron wrote, thank you for your lighthearted podcast about Girl

331
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 1: Scout cookies. I have many friends in the USA and

332
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 1: I'm always delighted to see the cookies sold by their

333
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: daughter Errs. I am a twenty five year member of

334
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 1: the Girl Guides of Canada and a mom of brownie

335
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: of my own. Every year. In Canada, we also sell cookies,

336
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: but the system is very different. We only have two

337
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: kinds of cookies, which are each sold in their own season.

338
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 1: Ball cookies are similar to a sinment. They have a

339
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: chocolate cookie base covered with a white mint cream layer

340
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: and the whole thing is covered in chocolate. These are

341
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: often the best seller and they freeze really well to

342
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: pull out at Christmas. Spring cookies are sandwich cookies and

343
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: two flavors chocolate and chocolate most similar to a Fuggio cookie. Well,

344
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 1: that's news to me, Fuccio, and the vanilla is like

345
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: vanilla Oreo. These cookies have remained virtually unchanged for thirty years,

346
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 1: though they are now peanut free guaranteed, so it is

347
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: always entertaining to see all of the American flavors. Huh oh,

348
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: I like that, I like a I like a good

349
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: cookie tradition. Yeah, oh, you know, I love a good

350
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: cookie tradition. I live for a good cookie tradition. Um

351
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: Melissa wrote, I recently listened to the podcast about Girl

352
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: Scout cookies and remembered a time from my childhood when

353
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 1: I was a Girl Guide since we don't have Girl

354
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: Scouts in Canada. In Canada, we only have Chocolate mint

355
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: which is sold in the fall, and chocolate and vanilla

356
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: sandwich ones that are sold in the spring. When I

357
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: was in middle school, I was a pathfinder girls in

358
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 1: grades seven to nine. My sisters were also in Guides

359
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 1: girls in grades four to six, and my mom was

360
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: a guider in my sister's unit that spring. The unit

361
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: that my mom was with had several girls quit part

362
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: way through the year, and the cookies were already ordered.

363
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: When they arrived for the season, they were stacked in

364
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: the entryway of the house. Because so many girls quit,

365
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: we got stuck with the now extra cases of cookies

366
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: and trying to sell them. It was around twenty cases

367
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: of cookies stacked near the front door of our home.

368
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 1: Because of this, we were selling them into the summer months.

369
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: To this day, I only buy cookies from members that

370
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: are in grade seven and up because it is so

371
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: much harder to sell them when you're no longer cute

372
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: and adorable your uniform. I've never really thought about that

373
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: aspect of it. Oh oh, I bet yeah, yeah. No.

374
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: I mean if it's like a like a sassy fourth

375
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: grader is like buy cookies now, I'm like, okay, yes, ma'am, Like,

376
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: here you go. If if a seventh grader is like cookies,

377
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, uh so that's sad. Oh No, definitely yes,

378
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: support support all your local girl Scouts, guides, brownies, et cetera. Whatever, Yes,

379
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: whatever the terminology is, I'm definitely. Again. I don't really

380
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: buy them because I'm a terrible person, but I do

381
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: send the links to all my friends and I let

382
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: them know. So I'm going to keep under the age.

383
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: You're You're supportive, You're You're a You're a cookie supporter,

384
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:58,719
Speaker 1: a cookie supporter, a proud cookie supporter. Thanks to your

385
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: vote that those listeners are writing to us. If you

386
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: would like to write to us, you can. Our email

387
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: is hello at savor pod dot com. We are also

388
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: on social media. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,

389
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: and Instagram at savor pod and we do hope to

390
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: hear from you. Savor is production of I Heart Radio.

391
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, you can visit

392
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

393
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. Thanks it's always to our

394
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: super producers, Dylan Fagin and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you

395
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: for listening, and we hope that lots more good things

396
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: are coming your way