WEBVTT - Astronomical Suffering and the Terran Diaspora 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:08.319 You've finally done it. For so long, the solution alluded you. 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:12.160 You explored every angle and pursuit the answer in the 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.360 waking world of mathematics and the fragmented landscape of dreams. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:22.160 But here it is the Serenian Engine, a functional technological 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:27.000 means of transporting humanity not only at greater speeds between planets, 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.640 but two other stars. You fall to your knees before 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.800 its golden splendor. You swipe through the air at your 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:37.280 side and summon a holographic keypad. It's time to tell 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.360 the corporation what you've achieved. But before you can initiate 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.839 the command, the air shimmers with a strange energy. A 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.040 flash of panic burns through you as you fear some 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.479 unforeseen side effect of the engine's power reality parts, and 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.560 a glowing vigor slips through the incision. It speaks to 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:01.240 you in a voice like a whisper. Professor, Up, what 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.760 are you? I am the messenger from the future age 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:10.960 come to warn you. Impossible, paradoxical, no more so than 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.120 your engine. It must be destroyed. Then you have come 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.920 to kill me. I cannot, but you can be activate 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:22.120 this machine, scatter its plans to the four winds, and 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.679 leave the future untarnished by its power. But why should 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.160 I do that? I built it to open up the cosmos, 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:32.520 to spread humanity beyond Earth, to safeguard us against destruction, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.040 and in doing so create hell worlds beyond number, places 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:41.319 with the descendants of humanity writhe and poverty, misery and pain. 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.920 The mass of their collective suffering dwarfs all of humanity's 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.080 achievements in my time, reducing the human experience to a 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.600 median of immoral horror. And I know, for I have 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.760 walked the mire and ruin of each world. I have 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.800 looked into their eyes. And I ask you now, in 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.000 the hope that no one else will retrace your steps, 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:12.519 to please turn off the machine. Welcome to Stuff to 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:22.120 Blow your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey you, 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.000 welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.880 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we wanted 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:28.640 to talk about the question of, hey, what if we 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:33.919 accidentally turned the Milky Way into a living hell? That's right, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.679 you were getting into this topic um of astronomical suffering. 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.640 And we we tried to make sure the title had 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:44.119 a spin of far future science fiction to it, and 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.400 we decided to kick things off with a nice hefty 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:51.079 slice of original sci fi to you know, to firmly 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.880 ground the conversation, because this is going to be a 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.360 conversation that gets into a lot of far future territory, 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:02.800 speculative science fiction territory, but ultimately wrestling with some some 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:08.280 real philosophical considerations about the nature of humanity and and 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.640 how we go about our decision making. Yeah. Um, so, 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.839 one thing that this topic makes me think about, maybe 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.080 a good place to start is how much of future 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.560 thinking among people, you know, people who like to think 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:27.720 about the far future, just assumes space colonization as a given, Like, 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.440 does not interrogate the idea at all, does not say, like, 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.240 you know, would it be good to colonize other planets, 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.200 other star systems and stuff. It just assumes Yeah, I mean, 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.480 of course that's what you do. Humans. You know, they 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.520 spread over the surface of the Earth, and now they'll 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.760 keep spreading on into other little rocks in space. But 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.880 the science fiction was so concerned with the question of 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:48.800 whether or not it could it didn't stop to think 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:53.200 of it should. Yes, the the Ian Malcolm Uh factor 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.200 often uh features into our conversations here, because yeah, for 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:00.200 for many, if not most, of us, Colonization and of 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.480 other worlds has kind of always seemed humanity's destiny. And 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.000 you know, part of it is simply the extrapolation of 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:11.480 our terrestrial ideals and ambitions and just the sort of 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.080 flow of of world history. We're just taking that in 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.239 applying it to other worlds. Our species spread from continent 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.839 to continent, finally overtaking every last, uh, you know, truly 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.520 habitable island in the global ocean. And so we've long 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.280 dreamt a voyaging off planet to whatever islands of life 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.520 or potential life we might find or create in this 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.640 cosmic ocean. Now, I know most of you consume science fiction, 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.440 so we don't have to tell you how pervasive the 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.479 dream happens to be. You know, Star Trek continues to 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.760 stand as a towering, optimistic example of how this might 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.440 play out. But we also see it in all manner 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.520 of sci fi visions, you know, from the near future, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.960 gritty world of something like the expanse or altered carbon, 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.640 you know, to far reaching worlds like Doom, Star Our Wars, 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.760 the Culture series, and many, many, many more. I think 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.080 Dune might be a good example for us to keep 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.720 in mind throughout this episode, though, because while I don't 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.600 recall in Dune there being much of a question about 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:16.720 the general project of colonizing worlds other than than humanity's 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.680 origin on Earth, um doing at least does present a 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:27.080 vision of a planet that is both inhabited and completely crappy, 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:31.919 just completely inhospitable in every way, like we shouldn't be there, 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.480 and yet we're there because we have to be. Now, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.279 in Dune, that's because of demand for a particular resource 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.920 that's only generated on this planet. But you could imagine 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.480 other scenarios where there could be a planet that's just 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.599 really not hospitable to human life in any way, except 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:49.960 we just have to be there, maybe because it is 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:54.240 the only rock that we can stand on within reach. Yeah. 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.160 And there's also that kind of nietzsche In quality to 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.479 some of the world's too, like because there's of course 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.320 i Racus, and then there's the home world of the Sarticre, 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.360 the the you know, the elite soldiers of the Empire, 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.719 which is described as a quote unquote hell world, the 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.039 idea that it's just so brutal there that it it 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:17.520 creates the super soldiers, and of course uh Oracus creates 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:22.520 their own elite um fighting force as well. Uh So, yeah, 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.599 I think Dune is a great one to continually return 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.160 to the I think the world of the Sarto Car 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:29.000 Troops come from. It's supposed to be sort of like 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.920 the planet where the Superman villain dooms Day comes from, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.160 right where it's just like made stronger and stronger by 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.400 by being subjected to every form of punishment and suffering 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.760 day in day out. Yes, yeah, exactly, and and that 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.440 that idea is covered in I think some other works 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.440 as well. I know, uh in in Banks in the 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.280 Culture series has a has a species it shows up 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.360 that is biologically immortal, and part of that is tied 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.200 to the fact that it emerges from such a hostile 0:06:55.560 --> 0:07:00.400 and competitive ecosystem. Uh that, like natural death was just 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.839 never part of its of its physiology, you know. I 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.320 will say there's another science fiction book that I've talked 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:09.320 about on the show before. I think I recommended it 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.280 one year for summer reading that I really enjoyed, specifically 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.640 because it asks a question along these lines. It's uh, 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.480 Kim Stanley Robinson's novel Aurora, which is about a generation 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.240 starship that has a colonization mission. Um, you know, trying 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.560 to go to another star system and colonize another habitable planet. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.200 But a big theme of that book is the question 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.640 of just like how how special Earth might be, and 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.280 ways in which we we don't realize that leaving Earth 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:42.560 is just abandoning everything that we depend upon and everything 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.040 that makes life good. And so ultimately there is kind 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.000 of a question in the book like, well, maybe should 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.320 we should we actually have our sight set on other planets, 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.800 Maybe there's something inescapably perfect about Earth, and instead we 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.880 should focus on making Earth as habitable as possible for 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:03.000 as long as possible. Um and and I remember, I 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.840 think reading some reviews of this book that criticized it 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:10.280 essentially as being like pessimistic and a down er for 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.680 for in some ways being characterized as anti space exploration, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:15.920 which I'm not sure the book exactly is, but it 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:20.280 at least explores possibilities in that space, which I which 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.720 I think is fascinating and very worth considering. Yeah, I 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.520 think the and and you know, actually a Christian and 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.800 I record an episode years ago called the Case against 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.080 Space that went into some cases that could be made 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.480 against UH spending time and resources and money on on 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.720 space exploration, you know, just to explore the other side. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.319 But but I think that one thing we get into 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.840 here is the kind of like soft futurism that we 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.720 sometimes engage in, like without really thinking long and hard 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:54.160 about the rigors of creating an off world colony of say, 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.360 colonizing and terraforming Mars. You just kind of tuck it 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.200 away in the back of your mind, is like, oh, well, 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.520 we have a plan and and and and in reality, 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:04.640 we we don't really have a plan. B. There is 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:09.040 no earth to um you were talking about very um 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:14.480 inhospitable worlds, extreme environments, places that are even the closest 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.440 uh locations we could go to our far far away 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.640 and we've touched on the the like the challenges of 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.640 of Mars on the show before. But it's it's a 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.320 danger to to just sort of categorize that casually in 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:31.280 the back of your head as like a reason to 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:36.760 not fully invest in the health of this planet. Yeah, totally. Uh. Yeah, 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:38.760 you don't want to be going around thinking like, well, 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:43.360 we gotta backup plan. Yeah, I mean long term, we might, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.880 but that is in no way a guarantee. Yeah, but 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.800 but I do want to stress that, you know, speaking 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.840 for myself, I certainly still buy into this this future. 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.679 I think it is an optimistic vision for the future 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.880 for the most part. But like all all things, considering 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:01.320 the of the future, you know, we have to we 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.720 have to have a balance of optism and realism, and 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.080 you have to entertain some of the worst case scenarios 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.200 as well. Oh, totally. I mean, I want to be 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.640 clear that in talking about this today, we're not trying 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.720 to make the case that space colonization is bad. We're 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.760 just saying, here are some questions to consider exactly. Yeah, 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.040 because I think a large part of this whole dream's 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:26.040 vision of expanding to other worlds, it's based in humanity's 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:30.480 innate desire to explore and expand. It's our scientific zeal, uh, 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.520 you know, and this is part of what makes humanity great. 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.240 Though it also leaches into our vanity and pride, and 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.959 more to the point, it is an eventuality that our 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:44.640 space programs continue to work towards you know, such dreams, Uh. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:49.120 Sci fi visions have animated the best minds among us 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.840 for decades and decades, and it seems ultimately a question 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.439 of when, not if a human being will, for instance, 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.920 ever stand on the surface of Mars. Well, I think 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.680 another reason that the idea of space exploration is so 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.080 popular among like optimistic future thinking people is like it 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.400 seems like it is the half of adventure that is 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.800 not that is not antagonistic and violent. I mean, I 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.840 would say adventure has two main components. One is like 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.120 exploration and discovery, and the other is kind of this 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.440 violent conquest thing. And you know, and we like the 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.880 sense of adventure, but maybe we we want a way 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:29.240 to have adventure that doesn't involve subjugation and violent conquest 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.520 of whatever you find when you get somewhere. And so 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.800 uh the and so space exploration seems like a perfect 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.960 candidate for that kind of spirit of adventure, right to 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.520 fulfill that drive without doing something harmful. Maybe there there 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.520 are these dead rocks out in the universe that we 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.240 could adventure two and we could explore without having to 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.439 make it into a struggle of conquest in war. Does 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.120 that make sense? Yeah? Absolutely, yeah. Now certainly you know 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.880 there's sci fi visions that that drag those elements in 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.520 and is we'll discussed there are some It's it's not 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.480 that that space colonization is a risk free venture. It's 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:06.480 not like they're there are not things that we could 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.800 potentially break while out there. But but yeah, it does 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.880 seem an optimiss The idea of exploring Mars, for the 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:19.520 most part, seems far less full of conflict and horror 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.960 than say, uh, you know Europeans history of exploring the 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.320 New World right now. Another huge angle to this, though, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.160 is uh, is that there is this idea that humanity 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.079 must eventually leave Earth in order to survive long term 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.959 in a dangerous universe and to thwart various existential risks. 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.760 Stephen Hawking was an advocate of this line of thinking, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.959 among many others. Yeah, I mean Stephen Hawking is not 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.520 wrong in saying this. I mean there are risks to Earth. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.679 And uh, here's here's an analogy maybe for for people 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.960 who are trying to like plan the retirement savings or whatever. 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.000 Is it good to put all of your retirement savings 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:03.840 in the stock of one company. Any any investment manager 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:05.880 or whatever would tell you don't do that. You need 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.280 to diversify your investments in order to make sure that 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.000 you know your that your money is safe. You've got 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.480 to invest in multiple different things because if something bad 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.440 happens to one company and you're totally invested there, you 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.000 could lose everything. Some people I think, look at you know, 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.840 the planetary habitation of humans in the long term, the 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.800 same way catastrophic things can happen to planets. There there 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.880 can be catastrophic changes to the biosphere of a planet. 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.800 And so if you don't spread out to other planets 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.600 over time, the risk just keeps accumulating more and more 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.440 that something is going to happen that will cause us 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.240 to blink out of existence. Yeah, and and we discussed 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.440 many of these on the show before, you know, things 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:52.680 such as near Earth objects potentially colliding with the planet. 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:58.240 Also things bound to human technology like climate change, nuclear war, 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:03.240 and another. Various exams upolth some some more futuristic than others, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:09.480 but most given known potential existential risk. You know with them, 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.680 there are there are certainly ways to attempt to safeguard 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:13.839 against them, at least as far as as ones that 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.439 are technologically within our limits of control. Uh. Now, can 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.080 we control ourselves? Arguably, Yes, that's possible, even if it 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.040 tends to not be the case a lot of the 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.520 time in human affairs. Can we track and mitigate incoming 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.480 in eos? Yeah, we're continuing to improve our capabilities in 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.480 that department. But as we get into long term concerns 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.040 about say the life of the sun, UH, we'd really 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.760 need to be higher on the Karda Chef scale to 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.600 do anything about it. And then there's also the issue 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.400 of outside context problems, which is a which are problems 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:49.000 that by definition, a civilization cannot anticipate. As then in 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.160 Banks explained in the in his book Accession, which is 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.480 where the term was coined, most civilizations encounter just a 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.840 one outside context problem, and that is what does them 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.320 in Now you might be thinking, well, wait a minute, 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.880 what's an example of an outside context problem? I guess 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.080 the definition of it would be that it's something that 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.440 we're not really envisioning right now. But maybe the easiest 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.560 example would be an encounter with a with a totally 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:18.480 uh incomprehensible alien species or something. Yeah. Yeah, that that's 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.000 that's the big one. UM And certainly like one example 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.040 that is often thrown out. I think Banks made this 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.400 uh analogy as well is if you are one of 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.240 the native people's of say South America, and then European 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.160 show up on your shore in these in these ships 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.160 with horses and all this technology. UM. It is not 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.480 something they anticipated. And there were and there were other 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.760 aspects of that problem that they just could not anticipate, 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.480 say the disease factor. And uh, and they ultimately, I 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.360 mean they it's not that they were completely wiped out. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.680 But obviously that whole situation was was an apocalypse for 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.360 the people's of the New World. But another thing we 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.600 should emphasize again that you just mentioned a second ago, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.640 is that, I mean, one thing we can be sure of, 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.640 even if we don't encounter any outside context problems, is 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.000 there's basically an expiration date for life on Earth that 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.920 has nothing to do with like stochastic events like a 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.880 near Earth object impacts or something. It's just gonna be 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.160 the the lifespan of the Sun. Eventually, the Sun is 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.800 going to swell, it's going to turn into a red 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.600 giant and and Earth will get too hot to live 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.440 on there there will be no life here anymore. Yeah, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.320 and and a lot of times this can seem like 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.280 ridiculous to worry about, right, but like, come on, humanity, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:35.040 let's let's get through July. Uh about the long term 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.840 survival of the human race and what happens when when 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.560 the Sun burns out of energy. I mean, we think 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:44.800 the the habitable Earth is already probably more than halfway 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.680 through its lifespan. You know, Earth is about four and 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.480 a half billion years old, probably within um you know, 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:52.040 it's hard to put an exact number on it, but 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.720 I think something like four billion years from now we 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.320 can be pretty sure that that Earth is just gonna 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.680 be done like that. There will be no more life 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.560 here at that point. It will just be too hot. Now, 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.239 four billion years is a long time, right, you know 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.760 that that was enough time to for single cells to 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:11.479 evolve into humans who are capable of appreciating the RoboCop movies, 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.600 you know, and so like, uh, it is a long time. 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:16.600 It's not like something you need to worry about tomorrow. 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:18.800 But at the same time, if you are trying to 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.000 imagine the far future, something would have to happen if 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.800 we wanted to go on beyond that point. Yeah, and 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.359 I think that's reasonable though also, of course it is 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:32.040 we are talking about the far future. Um. So in 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.639 this episode we thought we'd explore some of the moral 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:40.480 arguments that are ultimately against the colonization of other worlds. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.399 The concern, again, to to quote Ian Malcolm, is not 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.760 can we do it. But should we do it? What 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.800 would the moral cost be uh to a true Tarran diaspora. 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.280 If we were to expand beyond the earth, what would 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.720 it cost us? And would it be worth it? What 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.200 are some of the philosophical concerns here? Well, maybe we 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:00.800 should take a quick rake and then when we come 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:05.720 back we can talk about them. All Right, we're back. 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.240 So one of the key factors in this entire discussion 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.720 it has to do with the morality of human existence 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:14.720 and what you might think of a sort of the 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.680 media and human condition. Uh So consider this question. Is 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:24.000 human existence on average a reality worth sustaining and propagating? Uh? 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.240 You know, I know, obviously it's it's not like we 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.160 could do anything but that, I mean, that's what life does. 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.320 And we are we are life, no matter how self 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.480 aware we've become or how you know, self aware we've 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.240 come to believe we are, we are still just we 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.439 are life and life propagates. Yeah, and there are of 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.960 course people who believe, you know, that humans should voluntarily 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.280 go extinct. That is actually a point of view some 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.960 people have. I kind of and I don't mean to 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.840 question everyone who says this, but with at least some 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.719 of the people who say that, I kind of question 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.480 their sincerity. I mean with some of the people who 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.600 say that, I think they're probably just saying that to 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.119 be interesting or to be shocking, not because they really 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.000 believe humans should disappear right, or to sort of ext 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.680 to over express a sentiment, you know, yeah, to to 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.520 sort of drive home a point, like like I think 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.440 I've probably in in the past, I've probably said something 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.600 to the effect that I would I would be totally 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.399 cool with the with the male gender going extinct and 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:27.640 the species become exclusively female. Um. But you know, now 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.240 I have a son, and uh, you know I can't 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.359 rationally make that argument, you know, um, and it and 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.480 it was, ultimately, you know, not a completely rational argument. 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.240 Maybe you know, a little attention seeking and a little uh, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.080 you know, trying to to to make a point, I suppose, 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.320 but uh but still, you know, all these sort of 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.840 questions and considerations do get into bigger questions about like 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.359 what are we doing? Like what is the what? And 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:54.800 what are we doing wrong? And then what is the 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.000 the overall shape of life? This is you know real, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.159 this is the meat of philosophy and theology. Uh, you know, 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.359 why is there so much suffering in the world. Is 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.800 life suffering? Does all the suffering make the good parts 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.359 worth having? Is a miserable life better than no life 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.480 at all? Are their fates worse than death? I mean 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.320 this is These are questions we continue to wrestle with. 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.120 And then there's also the big, big question of inequality here. 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.960 If only a small fraction of the human population, such 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.280 as you know, the much talented one percent, or or 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.280 even some larger percentile, depending on what your parameters are, 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.720 if only this small fraction of the population has access 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.600 to true comfort, health, happiness, or whatever your gage happens 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.840 to be, then what does that say about the overall 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.680 health of the system. If the popular idea of what 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.560 it is to be human is, say the lifestyle one 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:51.040 season a popular television show, be it Friends or the Kardashians, 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.560 or even like Seinfeld, you know, a nice sizeable apartment 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.440 in all uh, then then how do we square how 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.879 out of proportion these visions are with our reality, or 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.119 sort of the standard reality on earth. And likewise we 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:09.280 might wonder which ideal we're envisioning UH to be installed 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.080 in an off world colony. What are we spreading to 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.800 other worlds? Beyond basic human presence and just sort of 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.800 the staked flag of empire, or perhaps ideally we envisioned 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.560 that such off world realities would encompass just a vast 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.560 array of emotional states, uh, you know, and that things 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.159 would even out tomorrow will be like today in the 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:30.000 arc of the moral universe, you know, will will bend 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:32.720 towards justice and so forth. So at this point I 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.119 wanna I want to turn to this, this subject of 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:40.399 astronomical suffering. Uh. And this comes from a paper by 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.920 Marco Covid. Uh. Not to be confused with Takeishi Kovaks, 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.520 which we referenced earlier. This is a k O V 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.200 I see, with the last part having a c H 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.639 pronunciation like in chocolate. So uh. So Covid is a 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:00.359 Swiss social scientist who is the co found owner and 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.280 CEO of the consulting firm Ours Cognitanis, and whose work 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.159 has been featured in Ian Magazine, among other places. He 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.479 also has written extensively in German and the German language, 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:16.359 and hosts a German language podcast titled Din Cautelier, which 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:18.040 you can you can actually you can look up. It 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.840 is d E n K A T E l I 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.840 E r dot x y Z. So if you were 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.520 a German speaker, uh, check that out. It's uh, I 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:29.959 would check it out if my German were not just 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:34.359 the most basic level ever. Uh. So you wanted to 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.359 do this topic today because you you read an article 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.520 by Covids, right, Yeah, It published in UM. It's an 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:45.879 open science framework publication titled Risks of Space Colonization. You 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.720