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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show. Let's

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Speaker 2: move on to Ukraine. This was also a very important story.

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Speaker 2: This is one which we've been tabling for a little while.

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Speaker 2: There's been no immediate developments with the biggest news that

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Speaker 2: really came out from just two days ago. Let's put

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Speaker 2: this up there on the screen is you can look

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Speaker 2: view it in two ways. President Putin of Russia has

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Speaker 2: replaced Sergei Shogu, who was the longtime defense Minister, one

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Speaker 2: of his closest allies in the Russian government, in a

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Speaker 2: major security shakeup. Allegedly Crystal he had. He's been nominated

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Speaker 2: and given a promotion. But I guess they call this

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Speaker 2: promotion a promotional firing in the best way possible. But

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Speaker 2: what's fascinating is that he did not put a military

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Speaker 2: man to replace him. He actually put a former deputy

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Speaker 2: prime minister quote who specializes in economics to replace Shogu. Now,

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Speaker 2: the reason why that's so important is that this shows

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Speaker 2: basically that the Russian economy post sanctions, the way they've

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Speaker 2: been able to survive is to fully ramp up their

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Speaker 2: entire military industrial complex. It's the way that they've been

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Speaker 2: able to pump so much money into their economy. They

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Speaker 2: become one of the major employers. Obviously, they've drafted and

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Speaker 2: or recruited hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens

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Speaker 2: into the military. They've got artillery production which is coming up.

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Speaker 2: So economic management and a fusion of the war industrial

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Speaker 2: complex tells us actually that Russia is in a more

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Speaker 2: robust and actually self sufficient place than it was prior

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Speaker 2: to the war. Sergei's firing really comes on the heels

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Speaker 2: of obviously his failed invasion of Ukraine and some of

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Speaker 2: his embarrassing It just revealed the oligarchic corruption that was

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Speaker 2: inherent to the system. Hiring somebody like this, especially on

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Speaker 2: the heels of the many Russian victories recently that have

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Speaker 2: been happening. It tells us where things are going in

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Speaker 2: that they're coming at this from a total position of strength.

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Speaker 2: Their economy is doing better than the Eurozone according to

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Speaker 2: the IMF, you know, the international molitor fun You've got

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Speaker 2: putin basically more popular than ever, more of a stronger

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Speaker 2: hold on power. The oligarchs themselves all have not deserted

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Speaker 2: him despite all of these sanctions, And now you're putting somebody, frankly,

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Speaker 2: even more competent who's in charge, which, if you think

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Speaker 2: Russia's an adversary, is not necessarily something that you want.

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Speaker 2: So by all means, their military is much more powerful,

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Speaker 2: their new leaders are much more efficient, and they're showing

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Speaker 2: us that their war footing is actually on more of

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Speaker 2: a basis today than it was before, and that any

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Speaker 2: attempt to degrade their capacity has not happened, despite the

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Speaker 2: two hundred billion dollars or whatever that we've spent so far.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so reportedly, there's a few things going on here.

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Speaker 1: To start with, Shoigo is the guy who thought that

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Speaker 1: they would just roll into Kiev and knock off the

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Speaker 1: Zelenski government and it'd be over like this and no problem.

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Speaker 1: And obviously that didn't work out. And you'll remember the

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Speaker 1: early phases of this war went very badly for Russia.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was really a truly a catastrophic, like

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Speaker 1: disastrous showing from the Russia military. There's also you know,

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Speaker 1: all these I'm sure justified allegations of corruption in the

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Speaker 1: sense that he's like, you know, corrup dude, who's feeding

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Speaker 1: off the teat of the state. So there's that, and

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Speaker 1: then the i think bigger picture here is that they

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Speaker 1: describe this economist I'm going to go with Belusov as

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Speaker 1: his name. They say he's a fan of military Kanesian Kanesianism.

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Speaker 1: He believes in the supremacy of the government in the economy,

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Speaker 1: government first, then business. And so it's an acknowledgment too

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Speaker 1: of the contours of where this war is at this

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Speaker 1: point that basically, like you know, you're in this somewhat

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Speaker 1: of a stalemate or Russia is starting to gain the

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Speaker 1: upper hand. And one of the key questions here is,

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Speaker 1: you know, how can your economy perform, how can you

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Speaker 1: spin up as much defense production as possible? And as

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Speaker 1: as Sager is about to talk about, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of signs that you know, the Ukrainians, not only

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Speaker 1: because there's been a lull in their support from the US.

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Speaker 1: That role has now been filled. Don't worry, guys, all

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Speaker 1: the stuff is coming to you. But because they have

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Speaker 1: so little of their own defense production capabilities that you know,

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Speaker 1: over the long run, if Russia is focused on being

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Speaker 1: able to spin up their own production and using that

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Speaker 1: to bolster their economy and also keep people happy in

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Speaker 1: terms of wages and jobs, et cetera, they're going to

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Speaker 1: be They're going to be in a much better position.

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Speaker 2: No, and they are in a better position. So let's

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Speaker 2: go to the next part. We've just got sign after

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Speaker 2: sign after sign that this is just catastrophic news at

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Speaker 2: every turn for the Ukrainians. Here we have major offensive

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Speaker 2: in the Kharkiev regions.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 2: According to their own commander, the Russians simply walked in.

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Speaker 2: This is the commander of the Ukrainian Special Reconnaissance Union

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Speaker 2: who fought in the Karkiev offensive. And yet what is

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Speaker 2: he talking about here? He says, quote, Now his men

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Speaker 2: are facing the prospects of doing the exact same walking

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Speaker 2: in all over again. Because Russian forces have made small

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Speaker 2: but significant gains right along the border of the Kharkiv region.

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Speaker 2: Their advances quote are only a few miles deep, but

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Speaker 2: have swallowed up nearly one hundred kilometers already of Russian territory,

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Speaker 2: and that in the more heavily defended east of Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: it has taken Russia months to achieve the same. So

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Speaker 2: they're trying to consolidate as many of their gains as

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Speaker 2: possible before major aid begins to flow from the west.

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Speaker 2: But even if the aid does begin to flow, you're

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Speaker 2: going to see that the Russians have really mastered of

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Speaker 2: attritional warfare on the ground. They know what they're doing

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Speaker 2: now at this point, let's put this up there. For example,

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Speaker 2: Russia's bombardment of Ukraine is more lethal than ever. And

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Speaker 2: what you see is that the Russians have now had

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Speaker 2: two years to test NATO missile defense systems and ones

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Speaker 2: that the Ukrainians have, and have developed custom strike packages

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Speaker 2: that are maximized penetration and so that they can hit

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Speaker 2: all of the targets that they want. They say, in

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Speaker 2: the past six months, Ukraine has intercepted only forty six

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Speaker 2: percent of Russian missiles, compared with seventy three percent in

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Speaker 2: the preceding six months before. The interception rate has fallen

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Speaker 2: to thirty percent now and the interception rate for these

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Speaker 2: long range Iranian drones has fell one percent to eighty

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Speaker 2: two percent in the past six months. So drones, you know,

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Speaker 2: remain relatively easier for them to shoot down. They seem

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Speaker 2: to have mastered that. But missiles, which are you know,

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Speaker 2: frankly something that Russians, any highly advanced nation state would

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Speaker 2: be able to develop, has largely been able to use

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Speaker 2: and employ them. And it's something that the Ukrainians themselves

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Speaker 2: has been one of the biggest strategic problems for them

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Speaker 2: that is happening on the ground. I would also show

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Speaker 2: you this a very recent interview with the Ukrainian top

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Speaker 2: Ukrainian General General Sbitsky. This is from the economists. I'll

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Speaker 2: read you directly what he has to say. He does

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Speaker 2: not see a way for Ukraine to win the war

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Speaker 2: on the battlefield alone. Even if it were able to

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Speaker 2: push Russian forces back to its borders quote an increasingly

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Speaker 2: distant prospect, it wouldn't end the war. Such wars can

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Speaker 2: only end with treaties, he says. Right now, both sides

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Speaker 2: are jockeying for the most favorable position ahead of potential talks,

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Speaker 2: but according to him, meaningful negotiations can begin only in

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Speaker 2: the second half of twenty twenty five at the earliest.

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Speaker 2: He says, by then Russia will be facing serious headwinds

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Speaker 2: because their military production has expanded, but it will reach

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Speaker 2: a plateau by early twenty twenty six due to shortages

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Speaker 2: and material and engineers. Frankly, this is all cope and

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Speaker 2: it's bs. You know, their artillery production, all of their

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Speaker 2: military production, has no signs that it's going to plateau

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Speaker 2: anytime soon. If anything, they're making exponential games year over

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Speaker 2: year and crystal. If they're going to admit that even

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Speaker 2: if they were to achieve their so called military objective

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Speaker 2: and push the Russians all the way back to their borders,

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Speaker 2: that they still wouldn't win the war, then what are

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Speaker 2: we doing here? Why are we spending all of this

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Speaker 2: money except you know, increasing the risk of nuclear war

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Speaker 2: and or a serious problem in Eastern Europe, which the

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Speaker 2: last thing that we all need right now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can tell you what we're doing. It's

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Speaker 1: just pushing the problem off to you know, after the election,

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Speaker 1: and pushing it, kicking the can down the road because

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Speaker 1: there's no real possibility of ending the war at this point.

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Speaker 1: There's you know, effort to secure some sort of negotiation.

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Speaker 1: As we've discussed before. Anytime that American presidents actually you know,

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Speaker 1: draw down troops which offer am area, they get take

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Speaker 1: help from the news media. I mean, you could imagine

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Speaker 1: if there was some actual concrete deal and Ukraine had

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Speaker 1: to give up the Dunbas or.

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Speaker 4: Crimea or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Officially, Biden would be killed he I mean not literally, guys,

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Speaker 1: but in the press they would. It would be wall

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Speaker 1: to wall negative coverage, just like we saw with Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: So it's just like, we'll keep funding it, We'll just

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Speaker 1: try to preserve the status quo, kick the can down

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Speaker 1: the road at the cost of you know, courting disaster

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Speaker 1: and at the cost of decimation of generations of Ukrainian

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Speaker 1: men and you know, future possible instability years and years

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Speaker 1: to come. So that's the phase we're in at this point,

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Speaker 1: and no one even denies that. I mean, there's not

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Speaker 1: even a plan. You don't even hear this. It's not

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Speaker 1: even talked about in the media anymore. We're entering that

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Speaker 1: phase as well, you see. You know, obviously we've pulled

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Speaker 1: some Wall Street journal reports and whatever, but when's the

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Speaker 1: last time you heard them talking about this on cable news?

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Speaker 1: Is very much slid from the front page. It's just

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Speaker 1: this sort of perpetual, ongoing conflict that they're working hard

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Speaker 1: to push to the back of Americans memories and you know,

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Speaker 1: attention span and hope that something undefined potentially one day.

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Speaker 2: Changes absolutely and last but not least, just to highlight

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Speaker 2: why this remains dangerous, let's put this up there. We

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Speaker 2: still see a lot of actions from Putin and from

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Speaker 2: Russia which we don't want in a stable world. Putin

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Speaker 2: orders tactical nuclear weapon drills quote to deter the West,

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Speaker 2: which was only a week or so ago. He said

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Speaker 2: on Monday that it would practice their deployment of tactical

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Speaker 2: nuclear weapons after what Moscow said were threats from France,

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Speaker 2: Britain and the United States. This is because the insanity

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Speaker 2: of all of this is that as the Ukrainians do

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Speaker 2: worse and worse on the battlefield, and as the West

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Speaker 2: realizes that AID alone it will never be able to

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Speaker 2: prop them up. We have two choices. We can force

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Speaker 2: them to cut a deal and we can just wash

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Speaker 2: our hands of an irrelevant conflict. Or what the British

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Speaker 2: and the French want to do is, hey, maybe we

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Speaker 2: send some troops there on the ground special forces and others. Immediately,

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Speaker 2: the Russians were like, yeah, if you do that where

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Speaker 2: we will kill them. We will strike and kill soldiers

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Speaker 2: who are deployed onto Ukraine. And now what you know,

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Speaker 2: we're an Article five territory. We're in a whole other disaster.

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Speaker 2: And that's why the tactical nuclear weapon drills are not

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Speaker 2: all that far away. I mean, we talk about this

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Speaker 2: too with Israel and Iran, just because it didn't go

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Speaker 2: hot that one time. It's just all about tension and

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Speaker 2: tension and tension. When you read history, it's very rare

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Speaker 2: that a single event just happens in a vacuum. It's

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Speaker 2: easily predictable if you go back and you look at

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Speaker 2: all the signs, some of which can take years. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, ten to fifteen years of tension and build

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Speaker 2: up and all that before something eventually explodes. So recency

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Speaker 2: bias is far too high. This is still a very

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Speaker 2: very dangerous conflict.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's absolutely the case. Let's turn to

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Speaker 1: the latest out of Israel. CNN actually spoke to an

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Speaker 1: Israeli whistleblower about the extensive program of torture of Palestinian

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Speaker 1: detainees This was quite a report, especially coming from CNN.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen to a little bit of what

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Speaker 1: they found.

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Speaker 5: Away from the military facility near the beaches of Tel Aviv.

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Speaker 5: One young Israeli Army reservist agreed to speak about schools

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Speaker 5: of detainees at Seti to Man. He says are kept

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Speaker 5: in cages or pens, constantly shackled and blindfolded, many for

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Speaker 5: weeks on end. We've hidden his identity and voice to

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Speaker 5: shield him from prosecution.

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Speaker 6: We were told they are not allowed to move and

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Speaker 6: must sit upright. They're not allowed to talk or peak

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Speaker 6: under their blindfolds.

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Speaker 5: And what happened if they if they did do that,

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Speaker 5: what punishments would meet it?

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Speaker 6: At we were allowed to pick up problematic people and

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Speaker 6: punish them, having them stand with their hands above their

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Speaker 6: heads for an unlimited time. If they didn't keep their

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Speaker 6: hands up, we could zip tie them to the fence.

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Speaker 5: The Israeli military says detainees are handcuffed based on their

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Speaker 5: risk level and health status, but the account talies with

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Speaker 5: photographic evidence obtained by CNN of Palestinian detainees inside Seti

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Speaker 5: to Men, and with hand and wrist injuries shown to

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Speaker 5: CNN by dozens of Palestinians released back into Gaza. It

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Speaker 5: was zip tied and blindfolded, says this former detainee, and

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Speaker 5: tortured in a way I never imagined. One source telling

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Speaker 5: us the restraints were so tight they had to amputate

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Speaker 5: a man's hand.

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Speaker 1: And this is not an isolated report. We had heard

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Speaker 1: previous reporting from doctors that it was relatively routine that people,

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Speaker 1: because of the way that they were handcuffed, would have

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Speaker 1: to have limbs or hands amputated. You know, the Israelis

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Speaker 1: obviously claim like these people are all under suspicion of terrorism,

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Speaker 1: but we know the way that they have interpreted any

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Speaker 1: quote unquote military age male as a potential Hamas terrorist.

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Speaker 1: We've even also talked about how they were planning on

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Speaker 1: setting up checkpoints around Rafa to not allow any military

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Speaker 1: age male, regardless of whether they had even a purported

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Speaker 1: tie to Hamas or other terrorist groups, to leave that area.

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Speaker 1: And so this is absolutely horrifying. Like we remember Abu Grab,

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Speaker 1: we remember the massive international backlash over that scandal of it,

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Speaker 1: the way that the media was covered. Kudos to this

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Speaker 1: whistleblower who is incredibly courageous to come forward to CNN,

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Speaker 1: and thank you to CNN for doing this report. But

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Speaker 1: it's very limited what you hear ultimately about the treatment

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Speaker 1: of these Palestinian detainees. And we even SAGA recently had

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Speaker 1: a report of a prominent doctor in Gaza who died

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Speaker 1: from torture in one of these facilities. So it's an

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Speaker 1: outrageous and unacceptable situation.

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Speaker 2: There's just all there's these things are just like on

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Speaker 2: the news every day, and I guess, you know, look

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Speaker 2: again as somebody who's not like the lefty Kefia where

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Speaker 2: and all that all I ever asked for is honesty

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Speaker 2: and for people to just be real about what's happening,

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Speaker 2: and these are all selectively ignored. I mean, the next

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Speaker 2: part Crystal works, We're about to get to the you know,

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Speaker 2: videos of these Israelis rampantly destroying AID inside or inside

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Speaker 2: of Israel headed into the Gaza strip with the police

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Speaker 2: just sitting there and standing by. I'm like, how, you know,

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Speaker 2: how in the world does this get not one ounce

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Speaker 2: of media coverage here? And then also for all okay there,

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Speaker 2: you know, because do the show with you and others.

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Speaker 2: I see so many people who are left as very

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Speaker 2: sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. And every time they're always asked,

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Speaker 2: they're like, hey, do you condemn? And they're like yeah,

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Speaker 2: And it's like, well, how many people who are out

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Speaker 2: there on social media and who are basically working as

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Speaker 2: a fifth column in our country? Why are they not

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Speaker 2: you know, asked, do you condemn like this violence? And

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Speaker 2: you know, saluting of all of this aid like why

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Speaker 2: it's the most basic and simple one and that's why

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Speaker 2: it's ignored completely. Yeah, where's Dana Bash's segment about it.

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Speaker 4: Such a great such a great point.

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Speaker 1: When you have, i mean, the number of statements and

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Speaker 1: the actions coming from the Israeli government, it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's insane. And we're going to get to Lindsay Graham

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Speaker 1: in a minute calling to New Gaza, like do you

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Speaker 1: condemn that? Like you, we're very concerned about what a

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Speaker 1: nineteen year old might have chanted on a college campus.

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Speaker 1: But what about when Lindsay Graham goes on Network News

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Speaker 1: and says, hey, maybe we should New Gaza, let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and put up on the screen what soccer was

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Speaker 1: referring to. Now, this has been going on for months,

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Speaker 1: but these are right wing psychos in Israel who are

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Speaker 1: blocking and destroying aid.

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Speaker 4: These are new images.

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Speaker 1: The Gaza Strip is in obviously dire humanitarian crisis. You

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Speaker 1: can see here the amount of AID that was supposed

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Speaker 1: to go into the Gaza Strip that was completely destroyed.

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Speaker 4: Here here are the trucks.

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Speaker 1: Now this is entirely and this shows you how this

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Speaker 1: is an Israeli government policy.

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Speaker 4: These are all the trucks that are lined up at

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Speaker 4: the Egypt border.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, Egypt has also said since the

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Speaker 1: Israelis seized the Rafa crossing in violation of their treaty agreement,

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Speaker 1: that they are not going to cooperate at the Rafa border,

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Speaker 1: So that has exacerbated the humanitarian crisis. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to like, obviously these psychos are responsible for

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Speaker 1: their own contribution to genocide, but it's also very clear

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Speaker 1: that this is the Israeli government policy number one, because

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Speaker 1: they're allowed to block the state and no one ever intervenes,

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Speaker 1: no one arrests them, etc. The Washington Post reported on

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Speaker 1: how the police in the Israeli military were there and

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Speaker 1: they were like hanging out together and like sharing food

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Speaker 1: and whatever, and you know, telling them you're good to go. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: protests against the BB government, you know, much more aggressive

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Speaker 1: response there. So we know that from you know, we

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Speaker 1: know this is tacitly, if not actively supported by the

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Speaker 1: Israeli government, and we also know the official policy, which

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Speaker 1: from the beginning was announced We're going to have a

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Speaker 1: complete siege. They then opened up the tiniest trickle. But

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Speaker 1: you have extraordinarily dire circumstances which are being exacerbated by

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Speaker 1: the day because you now have a complete cutoff effectively

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Speaker 1: of aid, especially into the Southern Gaza Strip. Northern Gaza

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Speaker 1: Strip is already under famine conditions. And just to emphasize

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Speaker 1: what a dire circumstances is at this point, Ryan Graham

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Speaker 1: are on Ryan Graham doing some fantastic reporting about put

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Speaker 1: this up on the screen. American doctors, about twenty of them,

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Speaker 1: are trapped in a hospital in Gaza, in the Southern

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Speaker 1: Gaza Strip and they are facing death by dehydration as

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Speaker 1: the entire population clings to life. So let me read

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Speaker 1: you a little bit of this report. This is from

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Speaker 1: Ryan Grihm and Hind Kudari who is there in Gaza.

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Speaker 1: She's a Palestinian journalist. Upward of twenty American doctors are

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Speaker 1: trapped in Gaza as a result of Israel's post invasion

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Speaker 1: closure of the Raffa border crossing into Egypt, Israeli has

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Speaker 1: blocked fuel, food, and water from entering Rafa for over

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Speaker 1: a week, leading to severe dehydration among the general population

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Speaker 1: as well as among the doctors on mission. Relatives of

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Speaker 1: the doctors were told by the State Department rescue efforts

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Speaker 1: were underway, including through coordination with the UN and the IDF.

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Speaker 1: Yet on Monday, the Israeli military fired on a UN

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Speaker 1: vehicle that was traveling to that hospital in Conunis near Rafa,

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Speaker 1: killing a UN employee and injuring another. So, just to

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Speaker 1: underscore what's being said there, you've got twenty American doctors

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Speaker 1: suffering from severe dehydration who are trapped at this hospital

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Speaker 1: in Conunis. The UN is supposed to be helping them

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Speaker 1: in coordination with the State Department. They send a rescue

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Speaker 1: mission vehicle, and the Israelis. It appears we know that

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Speaker 1: a UN vehicle was targeted in UN aid work are

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Speaker 1: killed by these reelies. It appears that was the vehicle

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Speaker 1: that was headed to rescue these American doctors. Now keep

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Speaker 1: in mind, you can only imagine if these are the

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Speaker 1: conditions that American doctors in Gaza are suffering through. Imagine

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Speaker 1: what ordinary Palestinians are suffering through living in a tent

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Speaker 1: for monthson and having no resources available to them whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: It really underscores for you how dire the circumstances are

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Speaker 1: for absolutely everyone involved. Ryan was able to attend the

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Speaker 1: State Department briefing yesterday and ask the spokesperson there about

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Speaker 1: this report and about what the State Department was going

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Speaker 1: to do about these Americans who are trapped in the

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Speaker 1: Gaza strip and with their lives online.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to what they had to say.

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Speaker 7: Citizens, doctors who are at the European Hospital and comunists

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Speaker 7: facing de hydration. At least one of them is on

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Speaker 7: an IV drip. Now is our understanding is that relatives

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Speaker 7: have been in touch with the State Department, usministrations or

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Speaker 7: anything you can say about efforts to get them out,

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Speaker 7: And was the UN vehicle that was on the way

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Speaker 7: to the European hospital part of those efforts?

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Speaker 3: So let me start with the second part.

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Speaker 8: I'm not sure of the operational and logistical specifics of

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Speaker 8: what was involved in those specific efforts or not, but

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Speaker 8: I can say is that we're aware of these reports

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Speaker 8: of US citizens, doctors, and medical professionals currently unable to

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Speaker 8: leave Gaza. As I've said before, we don't control this

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Speaker 8: border crossing, and this is an incredibly complex situation that

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Speaker 8: has very serious implications for the safety and security of

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Speaker 8: US citizens. But we're continuing to work around the clock

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Speaker 8: with the government of Israel, with the government of Egypt

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Speaker 8: to work on this issue, not just to address the

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Speaker 8: very serious humanitarian assistance concerns that I just talked about,

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Speaker 8: but as you so pointed out and Matt have addressed before,

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Speaker 8: RAFA is a conduit for the safe departure of foreign nationals,

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Speaker 8: which is why we continue to want to see it

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Speaker 8: get open as possible.

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Speaker 7: And what does it say about conditions more generally in

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Speaker 7: rothen and in Conunis If American doctors only arrived there recently,

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Speaker 7: are already suffering from the hydration and maltnutrition.

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Speaker 8: So look, we have not been unambiguous about the humanitarian

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Speaker 8: situation in Gaza. It is a crisis.

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Speaker 1: So if you ever were under the illusion, if you

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Speaker 1: were traveling abroad and you got into some sort of trouble,

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Speaker 1: your government would move having an earth in order to rescue.

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Speaker 1: You should disabuse yourself of that notion right now, because

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Speaker 1: it depends very much on the politics of taking such

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Speaker 1: an action. And so here you see this very bland,

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Speaker 1: non plus language from the State Department. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: Sager Ryan posted an update that one of the doctors

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Speaker 1: that is trapped there by israel siege is Adam Hamaway,

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Speaker 1: an Army veteran who famously saved the life of Senator

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Speaker 1: Tammy Duckworth after her helicopter crash in Iraq. So these

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Speaker 1: are American doctors, one of whom you know, I think

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Speaker 1: you can very much say an American hero. And this

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Speaker 1: is the sort of non plus reaction you get from

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Speaker 1: the State Department.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy. I mean yeah, like you said, I mean,

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Speaker 2: there used to be a time the whole the sun

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Speaker 2: never sets on an American citizen whenever they're traveling abroad.

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Speaker 2: I'll admit I used to think that too, whenever i'd

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Speaker 2: travel BI go out. Fine, and some of the sketchier places.

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Speaker 2: Not so sure about that one, especially now, kudos to

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Speaker 2: Ryan for doing the report on that. Yeah, you also

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Speaker 2: found this and I actually did some reading on this

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Speaker 2: is very interesting. Let's put this please up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: This is from Haretz and it's an analysis. It says

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Speaker 2: why Israel's generals are now openly briefing against Neta Yahu.

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Speaker 2: They say Israel's military commanders should have confronted Neton Yaho

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Speaker 2: about the lack of strategy for the Day after Hamas

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Speaker 2: before entering Gaza in October. Now, they may be right

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Speaker 2: to blame him for squandering their tactical gains, but they

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Speaker 2: should also shoulder some of the blame. And what's happening,

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Speaker 2: Crystal is that there is a glowing acknowledgment from the

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00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: military establishment, both in Israel and actually here in the US,

435
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 2: that the Day After plan and the inability to even

436
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: think about that before tactically going in was a total disaster.

437
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: One of the reasons that I know that the elite

438
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: opinion is turning is it's kind of hard to explain,

439
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 2: but back in the mid two thousands there was a

440
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: big counter insurgency revolution in the military about strategy in Iraq.

441
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: It was led by David Petraeus famously and a bunch

442
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 2: of other guys like John Nagel and a few other

443
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: scholars who kind of took over US military strategy in Iraq,

444
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 2: and it worked for a period of time until there's

445
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 2: debates around it, but it did certainly work, at least

446
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: in what they were trying to do in a very

447
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 2: narrow scope from two thousand and seven to twenty ten. Well,

448
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: these people whose fundamental insight is that you have to

449
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: separate terrorist population from the civilian population and at times

450
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: even expand at that time US lives to protect the

451
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 2: civilian population to create a more stable environment in place,

452
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 2: was the insight that should have been brought by the

453
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,959
Speaker 2: Israelis into what was going on in Gaza. Well, Crystal,

454
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 2: Now they are all being quoted in the Washington Post

455
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: being like, yeah, that was a mistake. They clearly haven't been,

456
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: you know, making any of that effort. That's what they

457
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,120
Speaker 2: if you were going to do this from they begin.

458
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: Of course, this is all very couch, but if you

459
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: know enough to read between the lines, you can see

460
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: that both in Israel and here we are beginning to

461
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: set the stage for the blaming of what will eventually follow.

462
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: We're now in the Iraq five years where it's like, oh,

463
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: things are starting to actually get bad. Turns out the

464
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: mission wasn't accomplished a little bit of an insurgency popping

465
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 2: off in Gaza city and communists, oh, we have about

466
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: this little rafa thing dangling. As soon as all of

467
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: that is resolved and we get to see the real

468
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: not destruction, but the full probably either resuscitation or whatever

469
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 2: the hell, you know, insurgency comes next inside of Gaza,

470
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: we will be having this debate, so you know, you

471
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: can mark your calendar. It'll be a year from now,

472
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 2: maybe six months from now. But the ground is being

473
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: set by people in the know, and they're like, we

474
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: got to throw these people onto the bus.

475
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

476
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

477
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: And obviously all of these people we're talking about here

478
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: with the IDF top brass, Baby nine Yang, the entire

479
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: war cabinet, like, these people are.

480
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 4: All extremely pro war.

481
00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 1: They have zero qualms about the incredible level of devastation

482
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: and civilian massacres that have occurred, you know, ever since

483
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: the first bombs were dropped post October seventh in the

484
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: Gaza strip. And so the significance of this, though, is

485
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: that you can see these divides starting to emerge for

486
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: these generals in coordinated fashion to brief to the media

487
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: against Bebe Net and Yahoo. That is a very stark

488
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: domestic political situation that is worth taking note of now

489
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: in terms of like thereands certainly aren't clean here in

490
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: terms of a quote unquote day After plan either because

491
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: they're the ones who came up with the plan of

492
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: we're not going to.

493
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: Do targeted strikes, We're going to do this overall.

494
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: Mass campaign of annihilation, even knowing that there was no

495
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: quote unquote Day After Plan.

496
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 4: Like they knew that from the beginning.

497
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: They were expressing concern about it from the beginning, and

498
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: yet they still push this plan which was ultimately adopted

499
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: of the total and complete annihilation. So you can't really

500
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: sell they you know, it's all Bebe's fault, its etcetera. No,

501
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: everyone was in this together. Everyone signed off on this plan,

502
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: knowing that Bibi didn't want to actually say what his

503
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: plans were for the Gaza strip because he wanted to

504
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: keep his hold on power. He didn't want to alienate

505
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: either the you know, extreme right wing terrorist psychos that

506
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: are in his government coalition or the quote unquote moderates

507
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: that are in his coalition, none of whom were actually moderate,

508
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: and so he wanted to keep it vague. And at

509
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: this point, I mean, they're really scrambling the latest thing

510
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: you sent this, I think this morning. They're like trying

511
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: to talk the Palestinian Authority into taking control of the

512
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: Rafa crossing, but they don't want them to say it's

513
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: the Palestinian Authority. They want them to do it like

514
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: in disguise, which of course the PA is like, oh,

515
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: why would we do that? BB had previously said he

516
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: didn't want to work with them. A Also, it's a

517
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: complete obviously it's a cluster from a military perspective, they're

518
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: having to go back into Gaza City, having to go

519
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: back into Jibali, a refugee camp because of course, because

520
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: of course, because the idea they were ever going to

521
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: completely decimate Hamas is preposterous. And now you have top

522
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: administration officials we played for you, Tony Blinkin, but Jake

523
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: Sullivan and let's see, there was another one who said

524
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: the same thing in the past couple of days, like, no,

525
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: you're not going to defeat Hamas, So what are we

526
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: doing here? We're just destroying civilian life in the Gaza strip,

527
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: which has been really quite apparent from the very beginning.

528
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: So absolutely, you know, extraordinary divisions that are starting to emerge.

529
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: Blame game starting to emerge all amidst the backdrop of

530
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: continuing deterioration and die your humanitarian circumstances as Israel has

531
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: begun that invasion in Tarafa. That's right, all right, guys,

532
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: wanted to share with you a little atrocity denial, fake

533
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: news being perpetrated from Joe Scarborough over at MSNBC, among others.

534
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: But he was one of the most high profile spreaders

535
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: of this completely false nonsense.

536
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 4: Let's put this up on the.

537
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: Screen, so he claims here, UN has estimates of women

538
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: and children killed in Gaza. Apparently the Hamas figures repeatedly

539
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: cited are false. Now, if you were anywhere online yesterday

540
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: in proximity of in Israel, no matter what type of person,

541
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: you very likely heard a similar claim made. Let me

542
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: show you what this was based on. Let's put this

543
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: up on the screen so the UN change it changed

544
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: the way that they were reporting fatalities. You can see

545
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: here on May sixth they have the overall number of

546
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: Palestinians killed thirty four thousand, seven hundred and thirty five

547
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: you can see on the right. Two days later, on

548
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: May eighth, very similar number. It goes up a little

549
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: bit thirty four thousand, eight hundred and forty four Palestinians killed,

550
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: so total numbers thirty four thousand n climbing.

551
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 4: However, when you look below.

552
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: In the May sixth one they say more than ninety

553
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: five hundred women and more than fourteen thousand, five hundred children.

554
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: In the May eighth one they say these are the

555
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: individuals who are identified, nine hundred and fifty nine women

556
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: versus seven seven hundred and ninety seven children so identified.

557
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: So the difference here is whereas previously there were assumptions

558
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: made about how many were women how many were children

559
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: based on the overall numbers and some identifying information. The

560
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: Ministry of Health in Gaza has since said that some

561
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: roughly ten thousand of the individuals don't have complete identification information,

562
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 1: so they're changing the way that they are reporting on

563
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: these fatalities. The number of fatalities did not go down,

564
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: in fact, it went up. In fact, if you look

565
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: at the bottom, you can see that in addition to

566
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: these thirty four thousand, you also have more than ten

567
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: thousand who are reported missing or under the rubble, which

568
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: means they are also likely dead. But this was used

569
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: to claim that the UN has now decided the hamas

570
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: numbers were wrong and have the number of women and

571
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: children killed not.

572
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 4: True at all.

573
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: In fact, you and spokesperson yesterday, in response to Joe

574
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: Scarborough and many others spreading this fake news, decided to

575
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: clarify just exactly what was going on here.

576
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to that.

577
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 9: Thanks Varhan. There's some reporting that's come out that says, quote,

578
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 9: the UN has half halved the number.

579
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 10: Of casualties has It's a hard word to.

580
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 9: Say you know what I'm talking about, though, yes I

581
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 9: do know. Cut in half, cut in half. Thank you.

582
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 9: The casualties from Gaza, is that true?

583
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 10: It's it's not quite the case.

584
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: No.

585
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 10: What I can tell you is this the overall number

586
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 10: of fatalities that's been tallied by the Ministry of Health

587
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 10: in Gaza, which is our counterpart on dealing with the

588
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 10: death tolls. That number remains unchanged and it's at more

589
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 10: than thirty five thousand people since the Since October seventh.

590
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 10: What's changed is the Ministry of Health and Gaza has

591
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 10: updated the breakdown of fatalities for whom full details have

592
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 10: been documented. So what they recently published was that they

593
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 10: gave figures for twenty four thousand, six hundred and eighty

594
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 10: six out of three hundred out of thirty four thousand,

595
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 10: six hundred and twenty two overall fatalities recorded in Gaza,

596
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 10: and those twenty four thousand, six hundred and eighty six

597
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 10: people are the ones for whom full details have been documented,

598
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 10: in other words, people who have been fully identified those.

599
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: Out of those, then, out of that.

600
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 10: Smaller number that subset of identified bodies, you have seven

601
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 10: seven hundred and ninety seven children, four thousand, nine hundred

602
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 10: and fifty nine women, nine hundred and twenty four elderly,

603
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 10: and ten thousand and six men. And the Ministry of

604
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 10: Health says that the documentation process of fully identifying details

605
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 10: of the casualties is ongoing. Meanwhile, as you can see

606
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 10: if you do the math, that there's about another ten

607
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 10: thousand plus bodies who still have to be fully identified,

608
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 10: and so then the details of those, which of those

609
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 10: are children, which of those are women, that will be

610
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 10: re established once the full identification process is complete. We

611
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 10: are teams in Gaza are unable to identify, unindependently verify

612
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 10: these figures given the situation on the ground and the

613
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 10: continuing combat and the sheer number of fatalities, and so

614
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 10: we cite the Ministry of Health as the source for our.

615
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 9: Figures, and do you have any reason to believe that

616
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 9: the Ministry of Health numbers are incorrect based on the

617
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 9: years that the UN has worked with the Ministry of

618
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 9: Health for Kaza.

619
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 10: Unfortunately, we have the sad experience of coordinating with the

620
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 10: Ministry of Health on casualty figures every few years for

621
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 10: large mass casualty incidents in Gaza, and in past past

622
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 10: times their figures have proven to be generally accurate.

623
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: So important there at the end too, because this has

624
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: used a lot of like, oh, well, you're just going

625
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: to trust us, and says, well, listen, first of all,

626
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: we can't in this war zone, with Israel, by the way,

627
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: providing limited access, we can't independently verify. And second of all,

628
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: based on historical record, actually the Ministry of Health has

629
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: been quite accurate, and in fact, this change in the

630
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: identification of the data is really an indication that they're

631
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: being quite careful and trying to be very meticulous in

632
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: the way that they record and identify these Palestinians who

633
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 1: have been killed.

634
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 4: So, you know, the thing that's.

635
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: So gross, Sager is, first of all everybody was telling

636
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: Joe Scart like this is just wrong, this is not true,

637
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: and the tweet is still up.

638
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 4: There's no community known on it.

639
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: You know, the UE comes out and says, no, no,

640
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: that's a lie, that's not what happens, it's not true.

641
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: And yet you just know that this talking point is

642
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: going to be used, even though it's thoroughly debunked everywhere,

643
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: It's going to be used over and over and go

644
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: over again. The same way that there's still Mike Johnson's

645
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: still out there talking about people plural getting stabbed in

646
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: the eye with a palasinating flagging though that never happened.

647
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: The way that you still have people who are out

648
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 1: there talking about babies being baked in ovens even though

649
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: that never happened, and baby's beheaded even though that never happened.

650
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: Like it gets debunked, but it doesn't matter, because it

651
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: still persists. The claims still persist, and it still gets

652
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 1: weaponized to dismiss, to dehumanize, to undercut the severity of

653
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: what has been done in the Gaza strip. And it's

654
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: just such a gross episode and so characteristic of the

655
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: dishonesty that has been endemic to you know, the way

656
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: that this confliction has.

657
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: Been trust you want to don't trust mass and don't

658
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: trust is real. I don't need to trust all those

659
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: people because I got two pairs of eyes. So whenever

660
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: I watched the Battle of Mosul, we saw ISIS being like,

661
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 2: they're killing civilians, they're massacring civilians. Independent sources. ISIS his

662
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 2: own videos and the Iraqi videos all show the same thing.

663
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: What Iraqi security forces engaging with isis ICIS and uses

664
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 2: them as human shields, and that in the many cases

665
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 2: they went to extraordinary lengths coalition forces uprate the civilian population. Okay,

666
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: that's all it took. It's like the numbers eventually came

667
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: out just validated what we saw at the time. What

668
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: do we see right now, Well, you got videos coming

669
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: about bombing a refugee camp. You got the IDEF coming

670
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: out and saying, well, we're doing to hit one persons,

671
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 2: we killed one hundred and fifty rubble that's collapsing all

672
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 2: over the places. You got and this is actually again,

673
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: all I need is you go into Gaza and to

674
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: communists into Gaza city. We're like, we're going to destroy

675
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: all the terrorists, and then you leave and then there

676
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: are a bunch of terrorists that are still left there,

677
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: and including rocket attacks and insurgent attacks, and the idea

678
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: of death toll people haven't taken notice OF's starting to

679
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: take up there even with these limited operations in Rafa,

680
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: which tells us what that you've got a maximum amount

681
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: of defense and that all of your strategy and all

682
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: that hasn't been working. And so whatever the death toll is,

683
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: whatever it is, it's not about the number. It's about

684
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: the proportion, and it's about what lengths that you have

685
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: gone to. We're going to talk with Arjun about this

686
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: Lindsay Graham quote about why we should new Gaza. And

687
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: there's a lot of talk always about resident and all

688
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: those other things, and even today at are very controversial

689
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: about why they are. But what everybody forgets is that

690
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 2: the extraordinary links that were gone to both for Japan

691
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: and for Germany to avoid ever having to make that

692
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: catastrophic choice about trying everybody's best, from the highest sessions

693
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: of the US military to including strategic bombing and trying

694
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: to knock out different areas in places to minimize civilian casualties.

695
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: And only when the Nazis and the Japanese Empire basically

696
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: made it a choice of complete unconditional surrender and actually

697
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: ramping up their defense and making surrender and victory as

698
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: difficult as possible. Did they resort to the mass civilian

699
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 2: casualty strategies of Drusien of Hiroshima and of the fire

700
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: bombing campaign onto Tokyo, and those were peer competitive enemies.

701
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 2: Israel basically just came out the gate without ever trying

702
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: any of those steps. And what I would say is

703
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: it because of the power and balance of that enemy

704
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: they did not try and even do what the US

705
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: did in fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, which it's not

706
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: even about morals, strategically and militarily backfired and is not working.

707
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:08,479
Speaker 2: You can see right now it's very clear.

708
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's just disgraceful. And yeah, to

709
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: your point also, I mean, there's a reason why after

710
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: World War Two the world community came together and said

711
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: we got to have some rules to protect civilians, because

712
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: this is you know, what we just saw unfold is outrageous.

713
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: It's unacceptable, and that's what we're seeing right now. It's

714
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: clearly outrageous. It's clearly unacceptable. And so if you're seeing

715
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: those things on their face. It's very difficult to defend.

716
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: It's very difficult to deny the obvious horrors that are.

717
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 4: Being done in our name with our dollars.

718
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: And so that's why they pick up these lies and

719
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: they run with them because the truth, the truth doesn't

720
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: work for them anymore. It's nothing even approximating the truth

721
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: works for them anymore. So, you know, I hope, but

722
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: I don't really have any aspiration expectations of this. I

723
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: hope this is a mark of shame against Joe Scarborough

724
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: and other people who shamelessly spread this lie forever. This

725
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: is a very problem that we played for Reied Zakaria earlier,

726
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: one of Biden's favorite angers. This is Biden's other favorite

727
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: anchor who is spreading this abject lie that you have

728
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: thousands of people telling him this is a lie, This

729
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: is not true. The un itself comes out and says,

730
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: this is a lie, this is not true. And you know, soccer,

731
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: the reality is given the level of devastation, given what

732
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: we've seen, given the humanitarian situation, given the lack of sanitation,

733
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: the starvation, the dehydration. American doctors who are on the

734
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: brink of death right now because they don't have clean

735
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: water to drink.

736
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 4: Given what we know about that.

737
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's any way that these numbers

738
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: even accurately reflect the full death toll caused by this war,

739
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: because you know, how how could they how could they

740
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: possibly know all of the individuals who have perished as

741
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: a result of direct Israeli strikes and of the Israel

742
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: Israeli siege policy. And we may never know, it may

743
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: take years for us to have a more complete toll.

744
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: But to try to lie and pretend like, oh, actually,

745
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 1: you know these have been halved based on the changing

746
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: and the reporting of some data is.

747
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 4: So it's just so disgusting. It's just so utterly repulsive.

748
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we've got a good guest standing by

749
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 2: Argent saying of lever Time podcast. We're going to discuss further.

750
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: Let's get to it.

751
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: So, our partners at Lever News have re upped, new

752
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: and improved their podcast, which is called lever Time. We're

753
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 1: really excited to be joined this morning by that podcast producer,

754
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: Arjine saying, who is the Lever's senior podcast producer and

755
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: has a fantastic new episode that I really recommend you

756
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: guys check out going inside the Biden Administration's internal discussions

757
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: and policy viz a Vi Israel Arghene.

758
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 4: Welcome, great to have.

759
00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: You, Good to see you man.

760
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: Thanks for you guys.

761
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 1: So before I get into this podcast, I just want

762
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: to sing your praises.

763
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 4: You know.

764
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: I've told this to David. I've been talking to Sager.

765
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: You're doing such an excellent job in terms of the

766
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: quality of these podcasts. I've enjoyed all of them. I'm

767
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: a big fan. So let's go ahead. Why don't you

768
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: break down for us this particular episode and some of

769
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: the things you learned about who's most influential behind the

770
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: scenes in terms of Israel's quote unquote bear head hug

771
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: of net Nyahu.

772
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. In this episode, we began by looking

773
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 3: a little bit at why Israel means so much to

774
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 3: the United States, and in particular to President Biden, who

775
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: has long considered himself one of Israel's strongest allies in

776
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: the US government. Inside of the White House. During What's

777
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 3: Happening Right Now, though, I spoke with Akbar Shahida Hmed,

778
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: the Huffington Post diplomacy reporter, and he illuminated me to

779
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 3: the fact that there are really three people inside of

780
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 3: this administration who have consolidated power and taken control of

781
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 3: Israel policy, and that is his Secretary of State Tony Blincoln,

782
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 3: national Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. But most importantly is someone

783
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: who many people have never heard of. He's a gentleman

784
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 3: named Brett McGirk. He's an advisor to President Biden. He's

785
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 3: been a staffer for his entire career. He has gone

786
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 3: between the Bush administration, the Obama administration, the Trump administration

787
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: now to Biden, and he is the one who has

788
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 3: really pushed Biden to take up things that people who

789
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: have observed Biden were surprised at, such as a normalization

790
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 3: deal with Saudi Arabia, which would involve a mutual defense

791
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 3: pact including sharing civilian nuclear technology. Brett mcgirk's career, though,

792
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 3: really started during the Iraq War, when he was tasked

793
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 3: with more or less the Bush administration schoal of rebuilding Iraq,

794
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: and I would say that was really not a successful,

795
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 3: beneficial or humane policy. Yet he has continued through government

796
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: government as a staffer, and being a staffer, he rarely

797
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: gives interviews. He fits kind of behind the scenes, and

798
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: I think that is something that has alarmed State Department officials.

799
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: People inside of the diplomatic community say that they've been

800
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 3: felt locked out. And Okbard told me a lot of

801
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: that has to do with Brett McGirk, who really seems

802
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 3: to have idea of ego and kind of his own

803
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 3: desires that he's pushed Biden on on these issues.

804
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know brekfas McGurk. Actually I don't know in personally.

805
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: I've covered him for many years for you know, like

806
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 2: you said, for Iraq Syria, he was at the heart

807
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: of that. Famously resigned from the Trump administration, but come

808
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: back he's kind of the pre eminent. It's almost like

809
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: a World War two esque type figure, like the bipartisan

810
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 2: foreign policy connoisseur. But you're very correct to point that out.

811
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: So one of the things that we wanted to get

812
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: your reaction to was not only the kind of evolution

813
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: of the pro Isra policy inside of the Biden administration,

814
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: but also of broader Washington, where there does seem to

815
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: be a complete coside really of Israeli military strategy, perhaps

816
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: best exemplified by Senator Lindsey Graham. You can see both

817
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: the emotion and the support here he has and clearly,

818
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: you know, obviously there's at least a taste of this

819
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: inside the Bide administration as well. In a recent interview,

820
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: he suggested that there should be nukes employed against Gaza

821
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 2: by the Israelis. Let's take a listen to what he said.

822
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 7: Can I say this, why is it okay for America

823
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 7: to not to drop two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and

824
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 7: Nagasaki to end their existential threat war?

825
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: Why was it okay for us to do that? I

826
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 2: thought it was okay to Israel do whatever you have

827
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: to do to survive as a Jewish state. Senor again,

828
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: military officials say, ever you have to. She has changed.

829
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: But let me ask you about how.

830
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 4: These military officials that you're talking.

831
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: About, let me ask you something or crap. So what'd

832
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: you make of that?

833
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 3: The shuffling on the papers emphasize at that point. But

834
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: I mean that I think, as you said, Sarger, that

835
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 3: underscores how emotional this issue is. And also that someone

836
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: the Lindsay Graham feels completely comfortable to say that as

837
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: a sitting senator. I mean, that's a pretty ridiculous comparison.

838
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 3: On the one hand, World War two was a completely

839
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 3: different issue than Israel and Gaza. The machinations that had

840
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: to go into World War Two, where largely are surrounding

841
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: will one of the worst wars in human history continue,

842
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm not justifying what they did in

843
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: World War Two, but to use that as an example

844
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: to justify completely one sided war. I mean, Israel is

845
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 3: clearly on the dominant side of this war. Over thirty

846
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 3: five thousand Palestinian civilians have died. The numbers are nowhere

847
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: near in comparison, even taking into what happened on October seventh.

848
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 3: So I think for Lindsay Graham to say that we

849
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: should just go in and drop a nuclear bomb, it

850
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: shows how comfortable the bipartisan consensus is that you can

851
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 3: make such an extreme statement. If Lindsay Graham had said

852
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 3: we should drop a nuclear bomb in a rock or Afghanistan,

853
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 3: I do wonder would that have gotten the same level

854
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: of acceptance. I mean that clip that you just showed,

855
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: I didn't see that registered in New York Times Washington Post.

856
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: If Lindsay Graham had said, Hey, we should just go

857
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 3: and drop a giant in nuk on, North Korea, I

858
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: imagine that's something that you would see the mainstream media

859
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 3: absolutely jumping on top of But it does seem like

860
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 3: that kind of a comment, is hey, part of the

861
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 3: course from Washington, even if it sounds absurd.

862
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: I mean, he's not even the first member of Congress

863
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: to suggest such a thing like that's what's so crazy

864
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: is or you know, a member of official in Israel

865
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: they've also, some of them have suggested nuking Gaza, and

866
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: it just sort of goes by as a blip. Meanwhile,

867
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: I saw pictures this morning of college student protesters who

868
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 1: are being charged with felonies under some like nineteen fifties

869
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: era rule against masking that was put in place to

870
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: combat the KKKA. They're being charged with felonies for protesting

871
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: and you know, rally chants that people don't like, and

872
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: you've got a sitting senator who had actual power suggesting

873
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: you nuke the gods of Strip and it's it's barely

874
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: a blip.

875
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 4: You barely hear about it.

876
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 3: Yes, someone who's considered a statesman by people his own.

877
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 4: Right, great point. That's such a great point.

878
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 3: You know.

879
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about another development in terms

880
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: of the Biden administration and their policy, which is, while

881
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: you have, and Biden has always operated this way where

882
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: he has a very small group of advisors and they're

883
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: basically the only ones that count, and every any newcomers,

884
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: anyone from the outside's very difficult to break through. I mean,

885
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: he's been in Washington for what freaking fifty years and

886
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: very locked into his ways. Not to mention, it seems

887
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: like he personally has a deep ideological commitment to the

888
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: Israeli cause, grounded on you know, a visit he had

889
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: with Gold in my Ear in the seventies or whatever.

890
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: But it's not uniform across the Biden administration. There are

891
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: some individuals who, especially in positions in the State Department,

892
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: who really do dissent from this jur and that's been

893
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: manifested in a number of ways. You've had some of these,

894
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,720
Speaker 1: like anonymous letters of Biden staffers or Kamala Harris staffers

895
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: will say we're very upset about this, but very anonymous.

896
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 1: You've had a few different resignations, and this is the

897
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: latest one, which I think is quite extraordinary and quite powerful.

898
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: We can put this up on the screen. The letter

899
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: that was written. This was from sorry, just pause this

900
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: for a second. This is from US Army major Harrison Man,

901
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: and part of what he said is that he felt

902
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: so alone going about business his business. He was disturbed

903
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 1: by the footage from Gaza. But he talks about how

904
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: he had, you know, all of this sort of rationalizations

905
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: of well, if it wasn't me, someone else would be

906
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: doing this job, and my work here doesn't really matter

907
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: that much anyway. But he says, I now realize the obvious.

908
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 1: If I was afraid to voice my concerns, you were too.

909
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: I've always known what kind of people you are, and

910
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: I should have had more faith in this team. So

911
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: I am deliberate not sending this to the entire agency.

912
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: I'm writing to people I know who might value hearing

913
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: the reasons I chose to walk away. He also talks

914
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 1: about how, as someone who is Jewish and was raised Jewish,

915
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: how this moral imperative of never again and the inadequacy

916
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: of just following orders was really impressed upon him from

917
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: a young age, and so because of those moral conscious reasons,

918
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: he resigned from the Biden administration. You know, do you

919
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: have a first of all, just react to this letter

920
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: in this resignation, and do you have a sense of

921
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: how widespread this dissent from the Biden administration. Top line

922
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: policy is among sort of rank and file individuals such

923
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: as this.

924
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what's really remarkable about this letter, and

925
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 3: even thinking about Aaron Bushnell, who you know, did the

926
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 3: self immolation in front of the Israeli embassy. These are

927
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 3: not people who come from the traditional anti war constituencies.

928
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: These are not activists. These are people who signed up

929
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 3: for the US military, many of them in the wake

930
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 3: of what we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you know,

931
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 3: they had convictions that they believed in what the military

932
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 3: was doing, they believed in the United States government. And

933
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 3: it says something to me that what they saw in Gaza,

934
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 3: what they saw as a lack of ability to dissent,

935
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 3: which inside of government usually you have traditional dissent channels.

936
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: They didn't feel that they were able to properly dissent

937
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 3: to the point that they went back on what they

938
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 3: believed in and they decided to resign. In Aaron's case,

939
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 3: very sadly, he committed a self immolation. And I've heard

940
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 3: that from State Department officials too. I spoke with one

941
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 3: State Department official in January. He had worked on a

942
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 3: RACK policy. He had worked on Ukraine policy. This is

943
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 3: not someone who had an issue necessarily with the fact

944
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 3: that the United States arms different nations. He said that

945
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 3: in arms transfer as you start the goal of how

946
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 3: how do you not do harm? But with how do

947
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 3: you do harm reduction? He didn't necessarily debate the idea

948
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,959
Speaker 3: that you would be sending weapons. But what he saw

949
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 3: happening with Israel was this rapid acceleration of getting weapons

950
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 3: over there, the complete squashing of descent. And he told

951
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 3: me that he felt the debate was stifled and that

952
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 3: similarly to Man, he was not able to adequately speak

953
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 3: out against these things. And these are the people who

954
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 3: are going public. But when I spoke with that official

955
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,959
Speaker 3: in January, he said there were many many more people

956
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 3: who privately said I completely agree with you. And when

957
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 3: I spoke with Uckbart, he said something similarly to me.

958
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 3: And so I do think that this is a very

959
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 3: widespread problem within the State Department, especially for people who

960
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: feel that in areas they've traditionally been able to provide descent.

961
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: In this policy, there are communications and there are directives

962
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 3: coming down from the top. The State Department officials said

963
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,800
Speaker 3: it was coming from White House, in top level State Department,

964
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 3: Blincoln Sullivan McGirk, and they were not able to push

965
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 3: back on this. They weren't even able to debate the

966
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 3: righteousness of this policy, much less the speed of which

967
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 3: things were happening. So I do think that what we're

968
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 3: seeing is very remarkable within the United States government. For

969
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: government officials, it takes a lot to resign, particularly in

970
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 3: the case of the person we saw a couple of

971
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 3: weeks ago, eighteen years at the State Department, Josh Paul,

972
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 3: more than a decade at the State Department. These people

973
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 3: built entire careers and they left, And that is just

974
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 3: absolutely astounding to me in the way this administration is

975
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 3: carrying this out.

976
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: Arjenne, what's your sense of whether there is a realization

977
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: that the quote unquote bear Hug strategy has utterly and

978
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: completely failed, And what's your sense of whether there is

979
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: an actual policy shift going on right now with the

980
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: Biden administration versus a rhetorical one. Of course, I'm referring

981
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: to the fact that he said, listen, if they do

982
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: a quote unquote major invasion of RAFA, we're going to

983
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: cut off some weapons shipments. But they have so are

984
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: deemed what is the invasion that has already happened in

985
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: Rava doesn't cross that red line for whatever reason. So

986
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: it really does leave it open to interpretation whether this

987
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: is an actual shift or whether it's an attempt to

988
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: sort of pacify a left and young cohort in the

989
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 1: party that is outraged over the atrocities that they see

990
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: being committed.

991
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in terms of this being a successful policy,

992
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 3: it's not been a successful policy, and it is something

993
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 3: that for Biden has politically failed for him, he has

994
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: given a lot of his administration's re election chances to

995
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 3: as you said, bear hugging Benjamin Netanyahu. Net Yahoo is

996
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: quickly becoming isolated on the world stage, Akamar told me.

997
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 3: Foreign allies are consistently saying to Tony blink In, the

998
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 3: Secretary of State, why are you doing this? Why are

999
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 3: you allowing this to continue? You have control over the situation.

1000
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 3: And there is a moment that I saw where India's

1001
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 3: Foreign minister actually said during a speech that he felt

1002
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 3: that the Palestinians had been denied sovereign for a homeland,

1003
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 3: and India under Mody had been and has been one

1004
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 3: of the strongest allies of Netanyahu. Mody and net Yaho

1005
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 3: are very close with each other. And that's again another

1006
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 3: remarkable statement to show that even a very strong ally

1007
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 3: who believes in this idea of what Israel is trying

1008
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 3: to do create this religious dominant state, they feel the

1009
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 3: need to have to speak out and tell their allies

1010
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 3: in their region that, look, we don't agree necessarily with

1011
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 3: all of these full objectives. As far as is this

1012
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 3: something that is really a change, I'm skeptical of that,

1013
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 3: to be honest, Crystal, this is a pause on a

1014
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 3: certain package of bombs. It feels a little bit mealy mouthed.

1015
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 3: And you know, I haven't seen Biden give a really

1016
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 3: forceful statement. He's given very taciturn comments saying I told

1017
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: them that if they went into Rafa, we would not

1018
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,439
Speaker 3: provide these weapons. We've told them, We've told them. There's

1019
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 3: leaks to you know. Peter Baker the New York Times

1020
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 3: that he had a tough conversation with net Nyahu. He

1021
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 3: privately told I'm considering changing my mind. Yeah, that is

1022
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 3: not a strong change of heart to me. I think

1023
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 3: a real change of heart would be a reconsideration of

1024
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 3: the historic policy of arming Israel, and also a reconsideration

1025
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 3: of whether the United States should be supporting Israel in

1026
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 3: no matter what kind of policy. That I have not

1027
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 3: seen a change of heart. And Josh Paul, who was

1028
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 3: one of the first people to resign from the State Department,

1029
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 3: he said something similar. He said it was a good sign,

1030
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 3: but it doesn't portend a long term shift.

1031
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1032
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: I think that's all very well, said Arjine. Great to

1033
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,399
Speaker 1: talk to you. Congrats again, guys. I can't recommend lever

1034
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: Time enough. It really is an excellent product. You'll learn

1035
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: a lot from it, and you guys have tackled a

1036
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: lot of really important and interesting topics, including airlines which

1037
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,959
Speaker 1: lever News had a big hand in forcing some changes through,

1038
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 1: including the oil price fixing, which we covered here as

1039
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 1: well with Matt Stoler. So definitely check out the podcast guys,

1040
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: and great to meet you arjin Man.

1041
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 3: Great to meet you guys.

1042
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 2: Thank you, it's our pleasure all right. Thank you so

1043
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: much for watching the Counterpoints. Have a great show for

1044
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: everybody tomorrow and we will see you all later.