1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm akshatrati. This week lawyers Versus engineers. 2 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: China is a country of superlatives. It makes the most 3 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: number of solar panels, wind turbines, batteries, and electric cars. 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: It also is the largest builder of new coal power plants, 5 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: the largest builder of new nuclear power stations, and the 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: country with the longest high speed rail network. The list 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: goes on and on. Because China builds, builds, and builds. 8 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: It's one reason why the country has become the fascination 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: of the green movement. China now has a huge lead 10 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: in all types of climate technologies, and it is using 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: that to electrify its economy at a breakneck speed. But 12 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: why has China been able to build while many far 13 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: richer countries have fallen behind. It's not just because China 14 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: is a dictatorship, argues technology analyst and author Dan Wong. 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: In his new book Breakneck. He paints a vivid picture 16 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: of the social, cultural, and governance differences that have turned 17 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: China into a nation of builders. Dan says that China 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: is a country with an engineer's mindset, while the US 19 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: has a lawyer's mindset. I spoke with Dan a few 20 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: weeks ago as part of the SOSV Climate Tech Summit 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: to learn what China gets right, where it's going wrong, 22 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: and what lessons other countries can take from China's extraordinary 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: green tech buildout. Welcome to the SOSV Climate Tech Summit, Dan, 24 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: and welcome also to the Zero podcast for Bloomberg Green. 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: Great to be here at chot SO. 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: I learned a lot about China from your book, Breakneck 27 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: Congrades on its success. We are talking on a climate 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: podcast and a climate tech summit, so there is a 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: lot of interest from the climate crowd on what China 30 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: has been able to achieve on its dominance in green tech. 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: But before we come to that, let's start out with 32 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: the main thesis of the book that you lay out, 33 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: which is that China is an engineering state while the 34 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: US is a lawyerly state. You have first time experience 35 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: living in both countries and at interesting times. Could you 36 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: briefly give examples that are illustrative to these two frames. 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: The time that I lived in was between twenty seventeen 38 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: to twenty twenty three in China, and which I felt 39 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 2: like it really was a momentous period in which Donald Trump, 40 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 2: in his first administration had launched his first trade war. 41 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 2: China was growing ever more capable in all sorts of technologies, 42 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 2: including clean tech. I also lived through zero COVID, which 43 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 2: was the centerpiece of my experience. And the China is 44 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: a country I call the engineering state in my book 45 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: because various points it has been ruled entirely by engineers 46 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: at the senior most levels of the Communist Party. The 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: engineers in China treat the physical environment as a giant 48 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: engineering exercise. They build a lot of homes and hyperscalers, 49 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 2: and solar and wind and coal plants as well. China 50 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: also treats the economy as a big engineering exercise, in 51 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: which they tend to shuttle young people here and there 52 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: in order to work on more strategic industries. And they 53 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: also treat society as a big engineering exercise, as I 54 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: show through the examples of zero COVID as well as 55 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: the one child policy, which the number is right there 56 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: in the name, and there's no ambiguity about what sort 57 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: of engineering projects these are. I contrast that with the 58 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: United States, which I call the lawyerly society. I mostly 59 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: wrote this book out of the Yale Law School. It's 60 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: still kind of surprising to me that every president needs 61 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: to earn a degree from Yale Law before they can 62 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: be in the White House. And the Democratic Party is 63 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: especially lawyerly, but the Republicans are pretty lawyer as well. 64 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: The issue with lawyers is that they block everything good 65 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: and bad, so you don't have stupid ideas like the 66 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: one child policy, so don't have very functional infrastructure anywhere, 67 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: and it is really difficult to build clean technology on 68 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: par with China in the US. 69 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: And this framing of engineers versus lawyers, why do you 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: think that was the important framing that people needed to 71 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: know now versus say, what's dominated US China discourse, which 72 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: is free market capitalism versus state led capitalism, or democracy 73 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: versus authoritarianism, or academic terms like leninism. 74 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, all of these terms have a place, and I 75 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: think that the US and China are both really important 76 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: countries that are in competition and have a lot of 77 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: frictions with each other. Most of these terms come from 78 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: nineteenth century political scientists, so terms like capitalists socialist only 79 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: Leninist comes from perhaps the twentieth century. And I just 80 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: wanted to be inventive and playful and coming up with 81 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 2: a new term for understanding these two countries. I think 82 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: that what distinguishes China right now is construction, a lot 83 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: of construction of homes hyperscalers again, coal, wind, solar, nuclear, 84 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: or whatever it is. And the United States excels at obstruction, 85 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: which is that it cannot build homes where it is needed, 86 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: especially in big cities like New York and San Francisco 87 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: and Boston. It is not building solar and wind or 88 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: transmission lines at a fast enough pace. There are now 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: thirty three nuclear plants under construction in China. There's zero 90 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: under construction in the US. Maybe we can debate about 91 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 2: whether there should be more nuclear, but I think there 92 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: just should be more clean technologies of all sorts, and 93 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: right now China is doing that. And I think that 94 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: is just one of several frameworks that we can use 95 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: to understand a lot of what has been happening in 96 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 2: the US as well as a lot of what's been 97 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: happening in China. 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: And if we take the historical frame here for a 99 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: little bit, we do know that America has built in 100 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: the past, and it did so when there were lawyers around. 101 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: So what has changed in America's mindset to build now? 102 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: Because maybe the number of lawyers has increased, but it's 103 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: not like lawyers were a rare commodity at that time. 104 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that the US has always been loyally 105 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 2: among the founding fathers, most of them were lawyers. For 106 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: sixteen US presidents from Washington to Lincoln, thirteen of the 107 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 2: more lawyers. But the United States had been a proto 108 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: engineering state. It built a lot when it was a 109 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: mostly empty country where there were a lot of especially 110 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: European immigrants drifting into mostly the East Coast, and there 111 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: was a consensus among the elites that this big country, 112 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 2: a vast empty space, really needed to build. And so 113 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: the US used to be a proto engineering state when 114 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: it built canal systems, train systems, skyscrapers in Chicago and Manhattan, 115 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: and then in the twentieth century major projects like the 116 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: Hoover Dam or the Manhattan Probably Checked Apollo missions or 117 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: the Interstate Highway system. And what changed, I think, essentially, 118 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: was the nineteen sixties in which the American engineering state 119 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: made too many mistakes and that has to be frankly conceded, 120 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: in which urban planners like Robert Moses had completely overrun 121 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: a lot of dense neighborhoods in New York City in 122 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: which the US Department of Agriculture was spraying DDT and 123 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: other pesticides throughout the country, and in which people had 124 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: grown really tired of a role by technocrats which were 125 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 2: a little bit too cozy with the industrial companies, especially 126 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: the automotive companies as well. And so I think the 127 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: United States turned into a lawyer le society throughout the 128 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties for excellent reasons. A lot of the lawyers 129 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 2: turned away from being creative deal making types of the 130 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: sort that are most obvious on Wall Street, in which 131 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: the lawyers were working with the railroad barons to raise 132 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: bonds for them, or eminent domain people out of their way, 133 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: and for good reason, a lot of the lawyers turned 134 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,119 Speaker 2: into were litigators and regulators, led by people like Ralph Nader. 135 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: But I think the challenge right now is that a 136 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: lot of the law schools, a lot of the law students, 137 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: a lot of lawyers are still obsessed with solving the 138 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: problems of the nineteen sixties. Rather, I say, let's solve 139 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: the problems the twenty twenties, which is in sufficient homes, 140 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: in sufficient mass transit, and insufficient solar wind and transmission lines. 141 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: So the loyally society has swung too hard towards obstructionism, 142 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: is the case you make. So one place where the 143 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: US has been able to build has been when it 144 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: has a perceived enemy. A lot of the successes in 145 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: the twentieth century come during the Cold War, for example, 146 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: where you talk about the Apollo Mission. These are driven 147 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: because there's an enemy and the US wants to be 148 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: in a race where it wants to win. Now, many 149 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: in the US see China as the enemy or want 150 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: to try and compete with China. But if you flip 151 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: that side of the narrative and look at it from 152 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: the Chinese perspective, is the driving force behind the Chinese 153 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: engineering mindset, the building mindset the same as it is 154 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: in America to try and beat America. 155 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: I think it is the same as America throughout the 156 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: nineteenth century, in which there was a lot of need 157 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: for infrastructure and not so much necessarily motivated by the 158 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 2: external threat. Although that is a part of it, I 159 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: think that we can also frankly acknowledge that there is 160 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: an external component to China's building. The highway systems in 161 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: Tibet are pristine not so much because the Tibetans really 162 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 2: desperately needs excellent highways, but it is to prepare for 163 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: military eventualities around the Himalayas. But I would say that 164 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 2: in general, China's construction is mostly to meet domestic political goals, 165 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: which is to demonstrate to the people that the Chinese 166 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 2: government is able to deliver for their material welfare. If 167 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: you are a resident of Shanghai, every year you're getting 168 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: more and more parks every year. There is generally expansions 169 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: of the subway lines, such as you're able to get 170 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: around much more easily. If you're more rural in more 171 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: rural areas, maybe you're getting new bridges, maybe you're getting 172 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: connected to the high speed round network, and so that 173 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 2: is also very real as well. 174 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: And I think there's. 175 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: Also a domestic political need for some degree of sovereignty. 176 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: So I think that China has electrified very substantially, just 177 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: as a share of electricity and total energy production only 178 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: slightly behind Japan, which is the only other major economy 179 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: that is more electrified, but China will overtake Japan soon enough. 180 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: One out of every two cars sold by the end 181 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: of this year will be electric in China. I think 182 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: that is mostly due to the fact that it is 183 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: pursuing some degree of energy sovereignty, such that they're reading 184 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: all of these reports from the Americans to say that 185 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: China has these choke points. The USS these choke points, 186 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: China is very dependent on Middle East oil and gas, 187 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: and so they can stop the flow of these ships 188 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 2: in China's saying Okay, well, let's not be powered by 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: Middle East oil and gas. Let's be powered through our 190 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: cars with domestic solar, domestic wind, domestic nuclear, and domestic coal. 191 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: And so I think that the primary target for China 192 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 2: in terms of a lot of energy production is more 193 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: about the sovereignty than about climate, although in this case 194 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: there are a lot of happy agreements between the two. 195 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: And let's stick with that, because if we take the 196 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: race framework, which definitely dominates American way of thinking, you 197 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: could take four or five areas where the US is 198 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 1: trying to compete with China AI chip making, trade, biotech, 199 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: soft power. But then when it comes to green tech, 200 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: America is happy to let China go ahead and dominate, 201 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: whereas it's going to push fossil fuels. They are on 202 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: two different lanes, so to speak. On the energy equation, 203 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: and China as a result, has become the largest exporter 204 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: of these technologies we've talked about. I mean, it's not 205 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: just about Chinese products made in China going out, it's 206 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: Chinese products made in other parts of the world. Almost 207 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: every continent has some form of Chinese green tech manufacturing. Now, So, 208 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: say at some point America realizes that climate change is 209 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: real and the future is going to be powered by green, 210 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: cheap electricity, what kind of strategic areas should America look 211 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: to start to build in because it certainly cannot overcome 212 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: all this lead that China has in every sector in 213 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: green tech, right. 214 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think the challenge with America really is 215 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: that I think that it did not necessarily make any 216 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: strategic decision that it will not pursue clean technology. Is 217 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 2: it's just something that sort of happened. In the same 218 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: way that there was not necessarily any high level strategic 219 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: decision to have a lot of manufacturing move to the 220 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: Asian Pacific and to China in particular. There's just something like, 221 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: you know, a million and one business decisions, let's simply 222 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: let it happen. I think one American superpower is wishful thinking. 223 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: That they will never acknowledge that they are so behind 224 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: in any technologies, because I think that still there's a 225 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: lot of discourse from the American elites to say China 226 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: is not at all a technology innovator. They are only 227 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: capable of stealing, not innovating. This is something that a 228 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: lot of American senators, for example, like Senator Tom Cotton 229 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: is able to tweet that the Chinese are not actually 230 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: economically competitive, they're just held afloat through industrial subsidies, which 231 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: I think is at this point not true any longer. 232 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: Perhaps it was true some earlier point in the past, 233 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: and so I think this is going to be pretty challenging. 234 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 2: I think, especially under the peculiarities of President Donald Trump, 235 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: who is really against wind turbines, in particular, calling it 236 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: the scam of the century. I find that quite interesting 237 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: and strange. Perhaps if we want it to be very 238 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: optimistic about US clean energy going forward, it seems like 239 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 2: the Trump administration is much more friendly towards nuclear power generation, 240 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 2: and so maybe at least for the next three and 241 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: a half years, it seems like it is going to 242 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 2: we're going to have to count on nuclear for generating 243 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: most of the answers here. 244 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, Advance geothermal is the other one that Secretary Chris 245 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: Wright talks a lot about because America has strengths to 246 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: try and build on what it has through shale oil 247 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: drilling that's been done in the oil and gas industry, 248 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: but could be applied to geothermal, which is a much lower, 249 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: almost clean source of electricity. But you brought up Wall 250 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: Street there, and it's worth making a note that a 251 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: lot of America is driven by Wall Street because your 252 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: big massive pension funds are managed in Wall Street, and 253 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: they vote with shareholders to try and decide where corporate 254 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: America is going. And that program has very much voted 255 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: for an asset light profit maximizing opportunity for American companies. 256 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: So when you say that manufacturing sort of moved to Asia, 257 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: not through government decision, but because of things like Wall 258 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: Street saying, well, making it cheaper in Asia is better 259 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: for profits, whereas in China the system that exists is 260 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: okay with inefficiency. They do want profits and they do 261 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: want market dominance, but that can come later. Initially, the 262 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: goal is to build, especially when it comes to companies. 263 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: So if we want to go to a point where 264 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: America starts to build. Wall Street is looking for efficiency. 265 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: How do you make the two work, because initially a 266 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: lot of the building will have to be inefficient, government subsidized, 267 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: be strategic, and that doesn't seem like the flavor of 268 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: the month. 269 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that is going to be one of 270 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: these cultural challenges that the US needs to face. That 271 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: it's not just the lawyers. I agree that Wall Street 272 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: has a lot to answer for itself, that the Wall 273 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: Street along with the corporate sector. There is this quote 274 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: attributed to Tim Cook that is evil, that what Apple 275 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: really wants is just in time production, the Toyota method, 276 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: whatever it is. And so there is just this general 277 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: drift in America towards some measure of efficiency, which could 278 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: also be understood as considerable degree of brittleness, in which 279 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: the US actually was not able to be very efficient, 280 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: for example, in the production of masks and cotton swabs 281 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: during the early days of the pandemic. That the US 282 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: is not very efficient at producing something like munitions after 283 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: it shipped a lot of shells to Ukraine and its 284 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: self defense against Russia. So there are all sorts of 285 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: ways in which the US is broken down. A lot 286 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: of my book is about the cultural views of the elites. 287 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: This is not a policy prescription book. I do not 288 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: say which statutes and regulations really need to be changed. 289 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: What I really really like is for the Americans to 290 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: have a little bit of a better sense of valuing 291 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: technology production, valuing communities of engine doing practice, and to 292 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 2: be quite a lot better at being able to manufacture 293 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 2: important things, value the circulation of process knowledge, and not 294 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 2: be so much held back by these efficiency concerns and 295 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 2: profitability concerns. 296 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Dan what his vision for 297 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: the US is and whether AI robots are the answer 298 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: to the Malays. If you're enjoying listening to Zero, please 299 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: take a moment to rate and review the show on 300 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Recently, Gwyneth Fries wrote, thank you, Akha. 301 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: I always learned so much from how you structure the conversation. 302 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: Thank you, Gwinnett. You're saying there is a vision that 303 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: exists in China where the Chinese communist power is trying 304 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: to meet the material needs of its people, and that's 305 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: the social contract it has, and it's delivering on that 306 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: contract so far, and so it's worked. Whereas America feels 307 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: a little adrift. You know, there isn't a Cold War 308 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: style enemy waiting. China sometimes is made to look like one, 309 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: but really, you know a lot of people are still 310 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: in the Francis Fukayama end of history. You know, liberalism 311 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: has won, liberal democracies have won. Is there a new project? 312 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: If you were to give Americans a vision for what 313 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: they should aim for to be able to deliver on 314 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: the things that you talk about, what kind of vision 315 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: would you want Americans to grab. 316 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: I think that the vision of America that I would 317 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: like to see would be self motivated, and there would 318 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 2: not be through treating China as an adversary, And it 319 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 2: is to simply meet a lot of what it's people 320 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: demand in terms of people complain quite a lot about 321 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 2: cost of living, for example, cost of living in bigger 322 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: cities like New York and Sanria, Cisco and Boston where 323 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: housing is quite unaffordable. That people to some degree want 324 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: mass transit, and people want a lot more public investments. 325 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: And I want the US to be the best version 326 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 2: of itself, and I want the Chinese to be the 327 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: best version of themselves as well. And the way that 328 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: I think that we can get here a little bit 329 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: better is for the US to become let's say, twenty 330 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: percent more. Engineering does not have to be very high, 331 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: but let's just build a little bit more of the 332 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: things that the people want. For example, California high speed rail, 333 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: which was approved by referendum now nearly twenty years ago, 334 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 2: and very little of it has been built. This is 335 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 2: kind of just I believe, a national embarrassment that California, says, 336 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 2: one of the richest entities in the world, wants to 337 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: build this and is simply unable to build very much 338 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 2: of it at all. And I wish that China can 339 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: be fifty percent more loyally. I would really love for 340 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: the Chinese people to feel like they can be in 341 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: a country where they can flourish in which the state 342 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 2: does not feel need constantly to strangle their creative impulses, 343 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 2: that the state actually learns to value individual rights and 344 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: actually means it, and that I would also really love 345 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: if the Communist Party could just one day learn to 346 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: leave the people alone rather than trying to engineer them 347 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: towards some measure of national greatness. 348 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: Well, that's a good place to come from a vision perspective, 349 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: but I do want to hit on one dark side 350 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: of the engineering state that you'd referred to earlier in 351 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: the conversation, but also you spend a bunch of time 352 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: in the book looking at the one child policy, the 353 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: zero COVID policy, you know, the one child policy which 354 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: your parents and the friends that they had back home experienced, 355 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: the kinds of brutality that you note in the book, 356 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: plus the zero COVID policy that you know, half of 357 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: it was pretty great for you, but then the other 358 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: half was pretty brutal. What is it about the engineering 359 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: mindset that leads to that kind of brutality. 360 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 2: I think that the engineering state is made up not 361 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: only of hydraulic engineers. Fundamentally, the problem with the engineering 362 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: state is that they are fundamentally also social engineers, and 363 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: they cannot stop themselves from treating society as if it 364 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 2: were just another vast hydraulic system to be shifted this 365 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: way and that through a series of valves. And I 366 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: think a lot about, you know, for example, the detention 367 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: of ethno religious minorities, especially in qing Tiang region. I 368 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: think a lot about zero COVID, and I think a 369 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: lot about the one child policy, which they treat people 370 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: as yet another building material to be torn down and 371 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: remolded as they wish. And I think the problem with 372 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: some of China is that living in China made me 373 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: realize that a state could be too efficient, that you 374 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: could have too much state capacity if people are unable 375 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: to resist something like the one child policy, which, over 376 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: the course of its thirty five year existence, according to 377 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: China's official statistics, they conducted about three hundred million abortions, 378 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: which is roughly the population of the United States. And so, 379 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: you know, to have these sort of national traumas being 380 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 2: visited by a highly efficient state against the people, I 381 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: think that this is something that we don't want to see, 382 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: which is why I wish that China could be fifty 383 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 2: percent more loyally to have to some extent a federal 384 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: traditionary that is separate from the executive that is able 385 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: to protect the rights of the people. I don't think 386 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: we'll ever get there so long as the Communist Party 387 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 2: is in charge, but I would really love for there 388 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: to be actually substantive legal protections for Chinese to be 389 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: able to resist some of the worst impulses of social engineering. 390 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: And in the last few minutes I've left, I want 391 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: to try and look a little bit forward, because AI 392 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: features in your book briefly to try and tell sort 393 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: of a little bit of the history where it comes 394 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: from cybernetics that was developed in Soviet Union. The goal 395 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: was to try and figure out whether you could actually 396 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: create a society using these hydraulic engineering type methods to 397 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: create that perfect socialist society. Well, we are now in 398 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: an age where AI is way more powerful than the 399 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: computers that existed in the past, and there is this 400 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: temptation to try and use it for all sorts of things. 401 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: So how do you think AI fits in the way 402 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: in which governance of these two countries should take advantage 403 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: of this technology and where is the risk? 404 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: I think that AI right now is one of these 405 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: things where there is definitely a race between these two countries, 406 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: and I don't know how exactly it will shake out. 407 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 2: Because there's some people in Silicon Valley who believe that 408 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 2: AI is something like God in a box which will 409 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: just reach superintelligence and it will just solve pretty much 410 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 2: all of humanity's problems. I'm a little bit skeptical of 411 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: that approach, and I think what I want to suggest 412 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 2: is that we can't count China out on artificial intelligence. 413 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: In part because China is just building so much electrical 414 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 2: power at a much faster pace than the US, and 415 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: at some point AI will become a power problem in 416 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 2: which the US will need to solve a lot of 417 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 2: its energy challenges. Right now, there's a lot of talent 418 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,959 Speaker 2: in the US which are of Chinese heritage who went 419 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: to Chinese universities. Right now, they are living and working 420 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 2: in California, but it could possibly be the case that 421 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 2: they decide to move to China in part because of 422 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 2: the erraticness of the Trump administration right now. Right now, 423 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: China is constrained on a lot of chips. But again, 424 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 2: here's where Donald Trump, being very erratic, might simply gift 425 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 2: a lot of these chips to China so long as 426 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: Nvidia pays an export tax. And so, you know, a 427 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 2: lot of these things are uncertain. But I think that 428 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: the US and China are racing towards AI, and that 429 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: race is actually profoundly uncertain. I think that we can't 430 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: count China out and we can't expect necessarily for the 431 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: US to win. 432 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: So last question for you, do you think that AI 433 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: and AI powered robots would be necessary if the US 434 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: is to bring back manufacturing, bring back building. 435 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 2: It probably would have help, But I think that I 436 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: would just focus on manufacturing much more directly, because I 437 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: think that it is really important to make things, and 438 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 2: we can't outsource all of our views to AI. AI 439 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 2: might be unfriendly. AI might only be really good at 440 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: making us make better power points, and so I think 441 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: that to target manufacturing, we should actually work on building 442 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 2: better manufacturing. 443 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: Thank you, Dan, Thank you very much a chat, and 444 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: thank you for listening to zero. Now for the sound 445 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: of the week. That's the sound of scuba divers seeing 446 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: a coral reef. The world has reached its first catastrophic 447 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: tipping point, where at current temperatures, scientists say widespread diebacks 448 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: of corals have begun. They say the world's warm water 449 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: coral reefs will not remain at any meaningful scale unless 450 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: immediate steps are taken to bring global average temperature rise 451 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: back down to one point two degree celsius compared to 452 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: pre industrial levels. If you liked this episode, please take 453 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: a moment to rate and review the show on Apple 454 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: Podcasts and Spotify. This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd 455 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: with the help of Annam Asarakus. Our theme music is 456 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: composed by wonderly special thanks to Samersadi, Moses Andam Laura 457 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: Milan and Sharan Chan. I'm Akshatrati back soon.