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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey there you found us. It's the Book of Joe.

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Speaker 1: It's me Tom Berducci with of course Joe Madden and Joe.

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Speaker 2: Last episode, we were talking about the.

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles Dodgers and apparently they weren't done because they

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Speaker 1: went out and they signed Tioscar Hernandez, adding a right

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Speaker 1: handed bat to the outfield mix.

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Speaker 2: I mean I was a little bit surprised.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they did get many margo in that trade

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Speaker 1: with Tampa Bay, but they wanted a power, right handed bat.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you what, Joe, I mean, they are

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Speaker 1: a premier destination right now because Taoscar Hernandez signed a

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Speaker 1: one year deal twenty three point five million dollars. But

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Speaker 1: he went this show hey route and deferred a large

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Speaker 1: chunk of that salary fifteen million deferred. So here's the

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Speaker 1: guy really in the prime of his career. I know

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Speaker 1: he didn't have a great twenty twenty, but he goes

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Speaker 1: to the LA Dodgers for a one year contract with

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Speaker 1: loads of deferred money. I think that just shows Joe

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Speaker 1: that people want to jump aboard this Dodgers bandwagon.

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Speaker 3: Why not? Right?

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Speaker 4: And when I was here with the Rays we first began.

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Speaker 4: Andrew always talked about making Tampa Bay a destination spot,

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Speaker 4: and just that you just talked about the Dodgers now

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Speaker 4: was a little bit more far fetched here than it

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Speaker 4: is out there. But I know that's always been part

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Speaker 4: of his philosophy to set up.

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Speaker 3: A situation that people want to come to. Why not

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Speaker 3: for him?

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Speaker 4: He has the acumen Andrew does regarding he's a really

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Speaker 4: good scout. I used to sit with him in my

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Speaker 4: office at the Tropic Canada Field and we would talk

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Speaker 4: about things, and I used to say to them, man,

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Speaker 4: you're a good scout.

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Speaker 3: He was.

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Speaker 4: He was, really, He's always had I thought, great scouting acumen.

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Speaker 4: Went to Tulane, played some college ball, but we would

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Speaker 4: talk and breakdown players, and he was always very good

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Speaker 4: at it. So when you get guys like Hernandez or whomever,

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Speaker 4: he's got a definite reason why. And I'm not saying

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Speaker 4: it's all him. He's got a wonderful group of lieutenants

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Speaker 4: there too, but really a wonderful ability to break it down.

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Speaker 4: And again, if if they do that, they have specific

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Speaker 4: ideas in mind how to make this fellow better. Even

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Speaker 4: to the I love Margo Man. I really like this

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Speaker 4: guy as a winning baseball player. And who knows that

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Speaker 4: they're going to, you know, a ladder part of the game,

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Speaker 4: take Hernandez out, whatever, how are they going to utilize him?

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Speaker 4: But there's there's already some kind of a plot or

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Speaker 4: plan that's been made up. It's it's very well thought

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Speaker 4: out in advance always so Yes, nice piece, wonderful piece.

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Speaker 4: But I'm here to tell you Andrew is really good.

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Speaker 4: He's a very good scout.

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Speaker 2: That's a great point.

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Speaker 1: I think we look at the Dodgers right now, and

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Speaker 1: that probably was there's some sort of hole there that

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Speaker 1: they wanted to fill, and they got the guy again

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Speaker 1: on a one year deal. As the saying in baseball,

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Speaker 1: there's no such thing as a bad one year contract. Now,

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Speaker 1: Hernandez does come with a ton of strikeouts, poor defender.

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Speaker 2: That surprises me a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Joe, as you mentioned, you got sho Hey in the

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Speaker 1: d H spot, so you're gonna have to play him

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Speaker 1: in the field. And I know a lot of people

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Speaker 1: looked at him last year and Seattle and said the

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Speaker 1: ballpark hurt his offensive numbers. But when you break it down,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of Chase in his game, you know,

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Speaker 1: chase and swing and miss. I'm not sure that has

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Speaker 1: anything to do with the ballpark when it comes to

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Speaker 1: power numbers. So they've got Chris Taylor, they've got many Margo,

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Speaker 1: and now they have Tascar Hernandez. Now listen, you've got

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Speaker 1: a guy who's potentially you know, he in the past

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Speaker 1: has been a Silver slugger and All Star thirty home

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Speaker 1: run guy. He can hit in the bottom third of

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Speaker 1: your order, changed the game with one swing. Again, it

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Speaker 1: seems like a niche buy for the Dodgers to just fill,

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Speaker 1: you know, a right handed power hitter, which probably is

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Speaker 1: not Margo's profile, but man, he's more of the defender

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Speaker 1: and slasher at bet.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what does his splits look like on Hernandez? Because

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Speaker 4: I'm sure they're willing to spend that much money, especially

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Speaker 4: if it's deferred to get a left a specialist to

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Speaker 4: hit lift tenant pitching. Also, there's again it's part of

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Speaker 4: this ying and yang that they're going to create there

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Speaker 4: if they the chase. It's hard to get a guy

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Speaker 4: to stop chasing. I mean, especially at the age that

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Speaker 4: he is. If it's been something he's been doing his

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Speaker 4: entire life career. I mean, for me, my biggest thing

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Speaker 4: was to try to get guys to not strike out

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Speaker 4: more than to attempt to walk. Maybe it's a better

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Speaker 4: two strike approach. Maybe they feel like they got some

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Speaker 4: kind of secret sauce or they saw something that is

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Speaker 4: going to help him not chase nearly as much. But

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Speaker 4: more than that, I think they already know this is

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Speaker 4: that they bought the player that they bought as a

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Speaker 4: guy that they're going to see and get and perform.

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Speaker 4: So maybe it's just against a certain type of pitcher

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Speaker 4: and having the I don't know, Jason Heyward still coming back, correct.

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Speaker 2: That's right. He had a very good year for them

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Speaker 2: last year.

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Speaker 4: Right, So you got Jay Ward and this guy that

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Speaker 4: might be like a nice little sandwicher out there in

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Speaker 4: right field whatever left field however they.

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Speaker 3: Want to utilize it. But they again, they have this

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Speaker 3: all settled.

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Speaker 4: But I'd be curious what he has done against left

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Speaker 4: handed pitching specifically, because that might be the reason he's there.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know this, and I know this happens with

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Speaker 1: our pitchers too. The Dodgers have just such good infrastructure there,

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Speaker 1: including their major league coaching staff. They repeatedly have gotten

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Speaker 1: the best of out of players. And you mentioned Jason

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Speaker 1: Hayward what they did with him last year a good

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Speaker 1: example of that really good bounce back season. And that

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Speaker 1: leads me to the topic I wanted to dive into today, Joe,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't wait to talk to you about that,

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Speaker 1: and that is coaching staffs. I look at the Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles Dodgers. Since we're talking about the Dodgers, they have

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Speaker 1: six at least six coaches and their manager who have

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Speaker 1: all been there at least six years. There's some nice

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Speaker 1: stability there with the LA Dodgers. And I also looked

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Speaker 1: around the game and I it's been an interesting offseason.

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, coaching staffs turnover quicker than they ever have.

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Speaker 1: We all know that, but this time around, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like some of the teams, maybe not a majority, but

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Speaker 1: some of the teams now are starting to circle back

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Speaker 1: to adding experience to their coaching staff.

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Speaker 2: And I saw what is it.

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Speaker 1: I think I counted seven former managers who were hired

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Speaker 1: as coaches this offseason, John Gibbons, Brad Ausmas, Jerry Narron,

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Speaker 1: bo Porter, Brian Price, Matt Williams. My list goes on,

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Speaker 1: and I think I'm not saying that everybody's buying into this, Joe,

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Speaker 1: but I'm what I'm starting to see is there's starting

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Speaker 1: to be a better blend of experience, and some of

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Speaker 1: the new age thinkers.

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's just I would like to believe that's just

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Speaker 4: common sense. I think that's what you're always looking for,

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Speaker 4: balance and blend, however you want to describe it. All

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Speaker 4: those guys you mentioned there, I know them all. They're

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Speaker 4: all outstanding what they do. And again, if you get

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Speaker 4: a guy with that kind of experience as a major

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Speaker 4: league manager willing to take a step back in a

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Speaker 4: sense and be there more as an advisor and be

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Speaker 4: there to lend his expertise in his years, it can

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Speaker 4: only benefit the group. And all those guys have really

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Speaker 4: wonderful personalities and are very easy to get along with

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Speaker 4: it and are going to assimilate very well. And I

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Speaker 4: think it's I think it's great you talk about coaching

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Speaker 4: staff stability.

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Speaker 3: When I was with the Rais, we had it.

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Speaker 4: Also, there wasn't a whole lot of turnover, and to that,

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Speaker 4: I really believe that you have to consider the acquisitional

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Speaker 4: process in a situation like that. In other words, the

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Speaker 4: players that we got here. Again, going back to the

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Speaker 4: scouting ability of Andrew, the guys they worked out. The

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Speaker 4: guys that we got they worked out, They did what

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Speaker 4: they were supposed to do. There's not a lot of

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Speaker 4: blame putting on coaches when players don't necessarily fulfill potentials

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Speaker 4: because the player brought in pretty much lived up to

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Speaker 4: what you thought he was going to do. So we

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Speaker 4: never had We had very little instability. We have much

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Speaker 4: stability with the coaching staff, and I agree.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how many times I talked about when

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Speaker 4: you go to spring training as a manager and you

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Speaker 4: have the same guys surrounding you. Quite frankly, spring trainings

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Speaker 4: a breeze. I mean, you walk in there, you have

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Speaker 4: to worry about the language. Everybody knows each other's language,

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Speaker 4: you know, the nuance of what you're trying to accomplish,

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Speaker 4: or you know how you want to have drills, run

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Speaker 4: the game itself, the little things that I might want

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Speaker 4: to do with a third base coach during the course

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Speaker 4: of the game. I had Tom Foley forever down here,

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Speaker 4: Full and I were definitely on the same page. You know,

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Speaker 4: you had Zim of course helping us work with the

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Speaker 4: safety squeezes hick with the pitching staff for so many

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Speaker 4: years and just all of the language was the same.

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Speaker 4: That cannot be discounted how important that is. So I agree,

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Speaker 4: and I think pretty much they've they've shown that now

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Speaker 4: the race have a lot of stability with the names

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Speaker 4: and their coaching staff. They may lose a guy once

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Speaker 4: in a while to get moved up or whatever, and

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Speaker 4: that's great, but for the most and then they'll bring

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Speaker 4: somebody up from the minor leagues primarily way. It's a

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Speaker 4: great method and a coaching staff. Just I'll finish with this.

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Speaker 4: When I was with the Angels in two thousand and two,

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Speaker 4: that coaching staff I thought had played such a great part.

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Speaker 3: In the winning of the World Series.

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Speaker 4: By the two thousand and two Angels have also been

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Speaker 4: on staffs where coaching staff can play a great part

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Speaker 4: in the non success of a particular team. So when

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Speaker 4: you get a group together like that that works that

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Speaker 4: well together, it matters so much from the manager to

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Speaker 4: the players, to everybody in that room.

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Speaker 3: It matters a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that two thousand and two Angels coaching staff, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's a gold standard when you think about under Mike's

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Speaker 1: Soosha with you and Buddy Black and Ron Renickey, all

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Speaker 1: future managers, Alfredo Griffin, Mickey Hatcher. I mean just just

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Speaker 1: the baseball acumen, the intellect, and the fact that you

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Speaker 1: guys got along so well. That was sort of a

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Speaker 1: special sauce. We talk about chemistry and teams. That was chemistry.

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Speaker 1: The coaching staff that you know. I'm not sure, maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm missing somebody, but that staff to me really stood

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Speaker 1: out in terms of just the brain power and the chemistry.

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you A part of that that goes under

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Speaker 4: the radar also is the fact that Sosh got to

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Speaker 4: choose all those coaches. I mean, Sosia knew all those

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Speaker 4: guys prior to getting together. He didn't know me at all.

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Speaker 4: I lost out to Sosh for the job itself prior

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Speaker 4: to two thousand and two in the off season that's

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Speaker 4: when I was interviewing for the job, and then the

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Speaker 4: eve of Thanksgiving nineteen ninety nine, going into two thousand,

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Speaker 4: he calls me. Sosh calls me and offers me the

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Speaker 4: job as the bench coach with him only because he

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Speaker 4: had gotten good recommendations from other people. And part of

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Speaker 4: it was the fact that I knew the American League

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Speaker 4: so well, and these guys really weren't American leaguers and

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Speaker 4: they wanted me to be there to be of assistance

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Speaker 4: with that. And that's how I really got that job

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Speaker 4: with Sosh, and it was wonderful the fact that Mike

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Speaker 4: and I got to be very close working with him.

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Speaker 3: I've talked about it before.

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Speaker 4: He has a quality that I don't think that's spoken

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Speaker 4: about enough, and so shed a fearlessness about what he

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Speaker 4: did always, whether he's as a player or as a manager,

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Speaker 4: and as a coach because he loved the coach too.

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Speaker 4: There's a fearlessness about him and that's what I took

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Speaker 4: away from watching him as a young bench coach. I'd

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Speaker 4: been there with Marcel Latchman, I'd been there with Terry Collins,

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Speaker 4: briefly with John McNamara before he got ill, but Sosh

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Speaker 4: really demonstrated that to me. He was the one manager

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Speaker 4: that really showed that to me. And the coach that

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Speaker 4: I loved being around with David Parker. David was another

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Speaker 4: guy that I had bo I have all these wonderful

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Speaker 4: coaches that I worked with there, but Parker had his

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Speaker 4: fearlessness and his calmness about being on a major League

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Speaker 4: Baseball field.

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Speaker 3: That really stood out to me.

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Speaker 4: And from the dugout perspective, social is the same way,

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Speaker 4: and that was a big part of the success of

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Speaker 4: that group at that time, and I was very fortunate

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Speaker 4: to be part of that group.

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Speaker 1: Joe, you brought up an Andrew thing point I want

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Speaker 1: to follow up on, and that is that Mike Sooshi

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Speaker 1: hired his coaches that staff we just talked about and

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Speaker 1: how good it was.

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Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, and if you haven't read.

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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe yet, what are you guys waiting for,

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Speaker 1: Because we talk a lot about how the powered nexus

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Speaker 1: and baseball really changed from the dugout to the front office.

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Speaker 1: And part of that we've seen is putting together a

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Speaker 1: staff of coaches. In a lot of times it is

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Speaker 1: the front office that hands the manager his coaches. Joe,

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Speaker 1: what's it been like for you in the arc of

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Speaker 1: your career when it comes to having your own coaches

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Speaker 1: or having input from the front office.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, as when I started with the Rays two thousand

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Speaker 4: and six, I had a lot of flexibility.

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Speaker 3: I think I was.

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Speaker 4: I was able to hire three guys there, and we

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Speaker 4: kept three back from the previous regime, which I also

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Speaker 4: thought was wise based on what I just talked about.

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Speaker 4: When I was rehired by the Angels, when Sos took

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Speaker 4: over the fact that he wanted some stability some of

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Speaker 4: the guys that knew the people that had been there previously.

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Speaker 4: So I got three and there was there was three

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Speaker 4: that were held onto and it worked out really well. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: So for the most part when I was with the

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Speaker 4: Rays really had a lot of say so regarding that

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Speaker 4: coaching staff, again, we kept them for a long time.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't it wasn't bouncing all over the place. I

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Speaker 4: think we might have had one hitting coach change. Hick

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Speaker 4: was there the whole time, Folly was at third base

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Speaker 4: the whole time that Davy was with me at the

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Speaker 4: We were really together for a long period of time.

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Speaker 3: It was wonderful.

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Speaker 4: So I had all that when I got to the Cubs.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't so much at that point that there was more, uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, wanting to choose different guys or I don't

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Speaker 4: want to say forced upon me, but the conversation always

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Speaker 4: led to, you know, kind of like this highly recommended

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Speaker 4: or they tried to convince you through conversation why this

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Speaker 4: guy would be good for the staff. And then again

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Speaker 4: there was some commonalities there too, like when Chiley came

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Speaker 4: on board. Absolutely again, I got Davey Martinez up there.

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Speaker 4: When I went up there, Davy was the I think

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Speaker 4: the only coach that I really brought with me at

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Speaker 4: that time was Davey Martinez. So the time up there

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Speaker 4: was more that staff was more chosen by the front office,

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Speaker 4: whereas the coaching staff that I had with the Rays

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Speaker 4: is more chosen by myself along with Andrew. Then with

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Speaker 4: the Angels again very you know, I got Butter in there,

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Speaker 4: a couple of other guys, was able to bring different

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Speaker 4: guys Heater Hindes, so it was a little bit more

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Speaker 4: open when I got back to the Angels. But it's

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Speaker 4: an organizational gig. Depends on the front office and what

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Speaker 4: they're trying to achieve, and I think the more analytically

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Speaker 4: driven the front office is, the more they're going to

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Speaker 4: want to become part of the hiring method of the

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Speaker 4: coaching staff, because they want guys that align closely to

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Speaker 4: what they're trying to get regarding numbers and the ability

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Speaker 4: to take that information and bring it to a clubhouse

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Speaker 4: or maybe some old school coaches don't necessarily have that

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Speaker 4: ability to read these sheets or buying his as much

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Speaker 4: as some of these younger guys are. Quite frankly, if

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Speaker 4: you're a young coach that's getting an opportunity to coach

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Speaker 4: in the big leagues, yeah, you're going to do exactly

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Speaker 4: what they want you to do.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned analytically driven in front offices, and I have

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Speaker 1: a really good example for you of one team that

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Speaker 1: shows it's possible that these teams can pivot and reconsider

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Speaker 1: their positions on coaches. We'll talk about that team when

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Speaker 1: we get back right after this. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Book of Joe podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Well Joe. The San Francisco Giants.

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Speaker 1: Hired Bob Melvin as their manager, longtime manager, great track

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Speaker 1: record in the game, replacing Gabe Kapler, and what stands

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Speaker 1: out to me is how they're coaching staff, which some

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Speaker 1: thought was going to be a model around the game,

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Speaker 1: has really taken on a different look with Melvin as

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Speaker 1: the manager.

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Speaker 2: Gabe Kapler had a very very deep roster of coaches.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like the NFL model where you have

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Speaker 1: positional coaches for every position on.

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Speaker 2: The field, a lot of guys there.

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Speaker 1: And when he first took over, he had thirteen coaches,

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Speaker 1: only four who had major league experience, and only a

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Speaker 1: total of seven and a half years of major league

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Speaker 1: coaching experience combined. And now we have Bob Melvin taking

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Speaker 1: the job as the Giants manager. He hires Pat Burrell

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Speaker 1: as his hitting coach. Pat was in their system as

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Speaker 1: a roving instructor. He brings Brian Price out of retirement.

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Speaker 1: Brian Price, the pitching coach, has followed Bob Melvin in

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Speaker 1: Arizona and Seattle, so obviously they know one another very well.

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Speaker 1: And he hires Matt Williams as this third base coach

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Speaker 1: we had in San Diego. That's a completely different look.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about a lot of major league experience there

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Speaker 1: with a previous staff basically had none. So give far

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Speaker 1: Hans Aidi, the president of the Giants, credit for hiring

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Speaker 1: someone like Melbourne and allowing him to shape his coaching staff,

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Speaker 1: not entirely, but enough that he's comfortable with the people

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Speaker 1: around him. I thought that was fascinating that the Giants

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Speaker 1: made really one hundred and eighty degree turn when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the character or makeup of their coaching staff.

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Speaker 4: I think it's brilliant First of all, Pat to Bat.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know Pat de Bat was back. Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: didn't know that. I missed that one.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful.

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Speaker 4: He's a good fellow man and we had a great

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Speaker 4: time together down here.

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Speaker 1: Apparently you know, they've raved about him and the job

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Speaker 1: that he's done. That not only knows the x's and o's,

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Speaker 1: but it's really good at connecting with players. And Pat's

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Speaker 1: the kind of guy. And I remember talking to Mark

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Speaker 1: Maguire about this one. I thought Mark was a really

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Speaker 1: good hitting coach, and he said, listen, I've hit more

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Speaker 1: than seventy home runs in a season. I've also hit

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Speaker 1: about two ten in a season. I can relate to

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Speaker 1: just about anybody. And Pat had that kind of a career,

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Speaker 1: you know, draft out of Miami, number one pick, and

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Speaker 1: it was down on his luck for a while, almost

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Speaker 1: forgot had a hit and bounce back with a nice

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Speaker 1: come back with the Giants and one of the World

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Speaker 1: Series runs. So yeah, he's got the background where he

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Speaker 1: can relate to a lot of different people.

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Speaker 4: Yes, one hundred percent. And he's a lot of fun too.

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Speaker 4: Pat's a lot of fun. He's conversant. He's going to

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Speaker 4: get into those conversations with these guys. My time with him,

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Speaker 4: he was I thought he was a good listener too.

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Speaker 4: We had a lot of good conversations. So I'm very

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Speaker 4: happy about that and which you've done that you've created balance.

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Speaker 4: Now you take guys like that, and we've talked about this.

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Speaker 4: For me, the next step is to hire that really

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Speaker 4: wonderful analytical group that you see, a bunch of stars,

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Speaker 4: superstars analytically speaking, who then feed information to these guys.

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Speaker 4: And I would bet every one of them, whether it

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Speaker 4: was BP, Brian Price, the former picture of mine in

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Speaker 4: the minor leagues, and Maddie no more intense than Matt Williams,

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Speaker 4: and of course Pat. I mean, they're going to want

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Speaker 4: this information. They're going to ask for this information, I

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Speaker 4: promise you. And that's what the disconnect is or the

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Speaker 4: not understanding completely.

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Speaker 3: Those that have been in the game.

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Speaker 4: We all want information, man, I promise, every guy that's

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Speaker 4: worked for the last thirty forty fifty years you want info,

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Speaker 4: you want intel. That's not the point. But then it

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Speaker 4: needs to be up to you to present it to

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Speaker 4: your guys. So you need to be able to have

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Speaker 4: the information accumulated because you know Pat's not going to

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Speaker 4: spend that much time or VP mine a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Brian Price might do a little bit of that. But

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Speaker 4: you want there's so much stuff out there. You need

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Speaker 4: somebody to accumulate this for you and give it to

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Speaker 4: you in a manner that makes sense to you.

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Speaker 3: As a coach.

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Speaker 4: It has to be presented on a page or pages.

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Speaker 4: I usually get PDF files that were catered to the

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Speaker 4: way I saw things, and you take that and then

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Speaker 4: I would take that information and we'll be able to

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Speaker 4: then put it on my card and then anything I

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Speaker 4: had to bring or do to the coaching staff for players.

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Speaker 4: It was easy because I kind of like was photographic.

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Speaker 4: If I looked at my sheet of paper with all

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Speaker 4: my stuff on it, it was weird, how like, during

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Speaker 4: the course of the game, I could actually see or

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Speaker 4: read that stuff my mind's eye because I was used

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Speaker 4: to seeing it presented to me that way.

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Speaker 3: And that's what I'd like to believe they're doing. Right there.

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Speaker 4: You get together this really well trained, well versed, experienced

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Speaker 4: group of coaches who know how to make adjustments on

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Speaker 4: the fly too. During the course of the game. There's

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Speaker 4: going to be the conversations during the game cannot be

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Speaker 4: analytical conversation. The conversation's got to be something that Pat

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Speaker 4: might see or say to a hitter before he goes

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Speaker 4: up to the plate. The little thing that BP's going

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Speaker 4: to say as he walks out to the mound, whatever,

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Speaker 4: that's so vital, and that doesn't get that doesn't get

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Speaker 4: sold enough, that doesn't get spoken about enough. That's what

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Speaker 4: really makes difference for players. In the heat of the moment,

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Speaker 4: you're not going to look at a piece of paper

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Speaker 4: to try to get you right. One word, one phrase,

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Speaker 4: one thought, whatever jogging my memory about something we talked

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Speaker 4: about a week ago, two days ago, before the game today.

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Speaker 4: That's what's vital, and guys like this can give it

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Speaker 4: to the players based, like you said, on their experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think in the military, the analogy is actionable intelligence, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the general has to sift through all the

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Speaker 1: data that comes in everything the boots on the ground.

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Speaker 1: You better give them just nuggets that they know is

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Speaker 1: vital to the mission that they're on. And that's why

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Speaker 1: that's how I look at coaches, Joe, their teachers.

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Speaker 2: First of all, you better be a teacher. If you're

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Speaker 2: a coach and you're a.

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Speaker 1: Distiller of information and I think about I spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time with the Rangers in their postseason run,

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Speaker 1: and I think about their coaching staff and very smart guys.

437
00:21:39,878 --> 00:21:43,518
Speaker 1: But when you talk to the players about what makes

438
00:21:43,518 --> 00:21:46,398
Speaker 1: that coaching staff so good, they all talk about and

439
00:21:46,518 --> 00:21:49,678
Speaker 1: you kind of reference this, Joe, the little bits and

440
00:21:49,758 --> 00:21:55,158
Speaker 1: pieces simplifying kind of you know, difficult or a lot

441
00:21:55,198 --> 00:21:58,118
Speaker 1: of information to process and they simplify it so it's

442
00:21:58,278 --> 00:22:02,718
Speaker 1: usable on a player level, especially in game speed. And

443
00:22:02,758 --> 00:22:04,798
Speaker 1: you look at their staff. Actually, look at the World

444
00:22:04,798 --> 00:22:08,198
Speaker 1: Series last year in the coaching staff Texas with Mike Maddox,

445
00:22:08,318 --> 00:22:11,358
Speaker 1: you know, with Chris Young, the former pitcher, bring him

446
00:22:11,358 --> 00:22:11,798
Speaker 1: in there.

447
00:22:12,118 --> 00:22:14,678
Speaker 2: I'm what a great hire that was. Bobby Wilson, the

448
00:22:14,718 --> 00:22:15,598
Speaker 2: catching instructor.

449
00:22:15,638 --> 00:22:18,638
Speaker 1: He's as good as there is, Will Venable, Tony Beasley,

450
00:22:18,758 --> 00:22:23,438
Speaker 1: Tim Hires, Donnie ecker Ton, ton of experience there. And

451
00:22:23,478 --> 00:22:26,198
Speaker 1: you look across on the other side, young team, but

452
00:22:26,358 --> 00:22:30,758
Speaker 1: experienced coaching staff for Toy Levello, Jeff Banister, another former

453
00:22:30,838 --> 00:22:35,478
Speaker 1: manager who's the bench coach for for Tory LEVELO, Damian Easley,

454
00:22:35,598 --> 00:22:39,358
Speaker 1: Joe Mayther, Brent Strom of course, been around forever, Dave McKay,

455
00:22:39,478 --> 00:22:42,958
Speaker 1: been around forever, Tony Perischica, Mike Fetter is one of

456
00:22:42,998 --> 00:22:46,478
Speaker 1: your guys. I mean, that's a lot of experience. Those

457
00:22:46,478 --> 00:22:49,598
Speaker 1: are the two teams that got to the World Series.

458
00:22:49,998 --> 00:22:52,318
Speaker 1: I don't think it's an accident. So I think when

459
00:22:52,318 --> 00:22:56,358
Speaker 1: you put his staff together again, use that word blend, Joe.

460
00:22:56,398 --> 00:22:57,518
Speaker 2: It's so important.

461
00:22:57,558 --> 00:23:00,678
Speaker 1: But I know in those big moments in real time,

462
00:23:01,518 --> 00:23:03,798
Speaker 1: when you can't go to the iPad or the computer,

463
00:23:04,198 --> 00:23:07,358
Speaker 1: you better have someone who can use actionable intelligence and

464
00:23:07,718 --> 00:23:07,958
Speaker 1: use it.

465
00:23:07,998 --> 00:23:08,278
Speaker 2: Well.

466
00:23:08,558 --> 00:23:10,118
Speaker 4: Yeah, you got to have your eyes on the field.

467
00:23:10,198 --> 00:23:12,398
Speaker 4: You can't have them on an iPad all the time.

468
00:23:13,518 --> 00:23:15,878
Speaker 4: And if you could break it down, like all those

469
00:23:15,918 --> 00:23:18,398
Speaker 4: guys you've spoken about, they're all analytical. What do you

470
00:23:18,398 --> 00:23:20,518
Speaker 4: think we've been doing for the last forty years when

471
00:23:20,558 --> 00:23:23,078
Speaker 4: we've been teaching in the minor leagues, whether it's in

472
00:23:23,078 --> 00:23:25,918
Speaker 4: a minor league situation or in a major league situation.

473
00:23:25,558 --> 00:23:26,958
Speaker 3: You're analyzing constantly.

474
00:23:27,358 --> 00:23:29,478
Speaker 4: And all these guys have their own methods. I know

475
00:23:30,278 --> 00:23:32,638
Speaker 4: Dave McKay's got his own method at first base as

476
00:23:32,678 --> 00:23:34,318
Speaker 4: an example, Mike Vetter's in the bullpen.

477
00:23:34,598 --> 00:23:36,318
Speaker 3: He'll set it up a certain way based on his

478
00:23:36,438 --> 00:23:37,518
Speaker 3: years of experience too.

479
00:23:38,038 --> 00:23:42,998
Speaker 4: The analytical it's not analytics driven through a boxer computer.

480
00:23:43,038 --> 00:23:46,598
Speaker 4: It's analytics driven through years of note taking, years of

481
00:23:46,678 --> 00:23:49,718
Speaker 4: mental note taking. So when it comes to a particular moment,

482
00:23:50,358 --> 00:23:52,558
Speaker 4: it's the blink thing. You could draw on all of

483
00:23:52,558 --> 00:23:55,798
Speaker 4: this stuff into cauldron of your brain that has been

484
00:23:55,798 --> 00:23:59,118
Speaker 4: stirring it up there for years based on experience, and

485
00:23:59,158 --> 00:24:01,358
Speaker 4: you're able to draw on that and that thought in

486
00:24:01,398 --> 00:24:03,638
Speaker 4: a moment. I mean, could talk about like so many

487
00:24:03,678 --> 00:24:06,678
Speaker 4: differ we have you and I have about different things

488
00:24:06,678 --> 00:24:11,198
Speaker 4: in my past that it is an analytical moment, not

489
00:24:11,278 --> 00:24:14,638
Speaker 4: based on something that's been handed to me via a spreadsheet,

490
00:24:14,638 --> 00:24:17,078
Speaker 4: but that I've that I've lived or been through, whether

491
00:24:17,118 --> 00:24:21,918
Speaker 4: it was in Midland, Texas, or Peoria, Illinois, or wherever

492
00:24:21,958 --> 00:24:25,158
Speaker 4: it might have been. And in the moment that's necessary, boom,

493
00:24:25,198 --> 00:24:27,358
Speaker 4: it jumps to the front of your mind. And again

494
00:24:27,398 --> 00:24:31,398
Speaker 4: I could start blurting out different examples right now, but

495
00:24:31,398 --> 00:24:33,918
Speaker 4: I'm not going to go there. But that's it. I mean,

496
00:24:34,918 --> 00:24:37,878
Speaker 4: analytics is a word. It's a word, and sometimes the

497
00:24:37,918 --> 00:24:43,958
Speaker 4: word is very controversial, quite frankly, and I think that's

498
00:24:44,038 --> 00:24:48,078
Speaker 4: part of the problem. Everybody, here's the word analytics, and whoa.

499
00:24:48,198 --> 00:24:51,998
Speaker 4: It goes up the force field of defense shields, stay

500
00:24:52,038 --> 00:24:53,638
Speaker 4: away from me. I don't want any of that. That's

501
00:24:53,758 --> 00:24:56,398
Speaker 4: it's almost like it's almost like COVID in a sense.

502
00:24:56,918 --> 00:25:01,558
Speaker 4: That's not what it's about. Analytics is really solid, good information,

503
00:25:02,078 --> 00:25:04,558
Speaker 4: but I think it's given too much credit for success.

504
00:25:05,118 --> 00:25:09,638
Speaker 4: And quite frankly, it's it's necessary because you want to

505
00:25:09,638 --> 00:25:10,958
Speaker 4: stay up with the other group, and you want to

506
00:25:10,958 --> 00:25:15,278
Speaker 4: look for the little hidden factoids in there that's gonna

507
00:25:15,478 --> 00:25:18,038
Speaker 4: you might bring to like a picture that's struggling, or

508
00:25:18,038 --> 00:25:20,958
Speaker 4: a hitter that's struggling, even a defender that's struggling, And

509
00:25:20,998 --> 00:25:23,438
Speaker 4: it might be a thought or two, but at the

510
00:25:23,518 --> 00:25:25,758
Speaker 4: end of the day, it's just a nugget out of

511
00:25:25,798 --> 00:25:30,278
Speaker 4: this vast reams of information. And then it takes the

512
00:25:30,558 --> 00:25:33,878
Speaker 4: analytical genius of the coach who has actually done this

513
00:25:33,878 --> 00:25:36,758
Speaker 4: for so many years, and you cambine that that that

514
00:25:36,918 --> 00:25:43,038
Speaker 4: analytical nugget that maybe this coach cannot have ascertained on

515
00:25:43,118 --> 00:25:46,678
Speaker 4: his own, he gets it, and then he combines.

516
00:25:46,238 --> 00:25:48,198
Speaker 3: That with what he knows, and.

517
00:25:48,158 --> 00:25:50,558
Speaker 4: Now you got yourself a pretty darn good coach. So

518
00:25:50,958 --> 00:25:56,558
Speaker 4: it's the word analytics more than anything that creates this disparity, discrepancy,

519
00:25:56,678 --> 00:26:00,478
Speaker 4: This this controversy, and it's we need to get away

520
00:26:00,478 --> 00:26:04,358
Speaker 4: from that. Information is good, then you need to get

521
00:26:05,358 --> 00:26:09,558
Speaker 4: combined it with the blend of those that accumulate this information,

522
00:26:09,638 --> 00:26:12,198
Speaker 4: with those that actually know how to teach and not

523
00:26:12,278 --> 00:26:14,318
Speaker 4: necessarily just be a presenter.

524
00:26:14,758 --> 00:26:18,398
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that's where the advantages lie now, those of

525
00:26:18,438 --> 00:26:22,358
Speaker 1: the present. But as long as we're talking about coaches, Joe,

526
00:26:22,398 --> 00:26:25,958
Speaker 1: can you explain to me why coaches aren't paid more money?

527
00:26:26,158 --> 00:26:28,518
Speaker 1: I mean, it is unbelievable when you think about we

528
00:26:28,758 --> 00:26:31,518
Speaker 1: just talked about tai Oscar Hernandez, right, I mean, listen,

529
00:26:31,518 --> 00:26:33,478
Speaker 1: I know he's been a Silver Slugger and All Star,

530
00:26:33,718 --> 00:26:35,678
Speaker 1: but this guy who strikes out a third of the time,

531
00:26:35,958 --> 00:26:38,038
Speaker 1: doesn't hit for average, didn't hit for power last year,

532
00:26:38,078 --> 00:26:41,398
Speaker 1: and he's making twenty three and a half million dollars.

533
00:26:41,478 --> 00:26:46,918
Speaker 1: And yet the inflation or evaluation of players and the

534
00:26:46,958 --> 00:26:50,678
Speaker 1: way that that's increased has not really reached the coaching

535
00:26:50,758 --> 00:26:53,638
Speaker 1: level at all. I mean, it's amazing, and you think

536
00:26:53,678 --> 00:26:56,958
Speaker 1: about more and more as being asked of these coaches.

537
00:26:56,958 --> 00:26:58,078
Speaker 2: I had a coach last.

538
00:26:57,878 --> 00:27:00,478
Speaker 1: Year tell me a team one of them near twelve

539
00:27:00,638 --> 00:27:04,238
Speaker 1: thirty in the afternoon for seven o'clock games, It's just

540
00:27:04,358 --> 00:27:07,118
Speaker 1: amazing the amount of work that they have to put in.

541
00:27:07,198 --> 00:27:11,638
Speaker 1: If you're a heading coach, these guys want to hit constantly, constantly,

542
00:27:12,438 --> 00:27:15,478
Speaker 1: and the pay hasn't really changed. I remember your guy

543
00:27:15,598 --> 00:27:18,958
Speaker 1: Chili Dave is telling me years ago that if you're

544
00:27:18,958 --> 00:27:22,518
Speaker 1: a coach and you're working, especially in a major market,

545
00:27:22,838 --> 00:27:26,118
Speaker 1: you're lucky if you actually net money over the course

546
00:27:26,158 --> 00:27:29,358
Speaker 1: of the season, because you have to get a rental

547
00:27:29,478 --> 00:27:31,598
Speaker 1: somewhere at a major city, and a lot of times

548
00:27:31,598 --> 00:27:33,758
Speaker 1: you can't get a six month rental in a decent place.

549
00:27:33,758 --> 00:27:35,638
Speaker 1: It's got to be a twelve month rental. Even if

550
00:27:35,638 --> 00:27:38,358
Speaker 1: you're lucky enough to get a six month rental, there's

551
00:27:38,438 --> 00:27:41,398
Speaker 1: the cost of that in a major market not cheap.

552
00:27:42,198 --> 00:27:44,998
Speaker 1: And the fact that teams want you there early means

553
00:27:45,358 --> 00:27:47,078
Speaker 1: a lot of times, especially on the road, you have

554
00:27:47,118 --> 00:27:49,798
Speaker 1: to find your own transportation to the ballpark, getting back

555
00:27:49,838 --> 00:27:52,718
Speaker 1: and forth. You know, these things start to add up.

556
00:27:52,838 --> 00:27:54,838
Speaker 1: And we haven't even talked about the amount of man

557
00:27:54,878 --> 00:27:59,078
Speaker 1: hours these jobs require. So we talk a lot about

558
00:27:59,118 --> 00:28:01,638
Speaker 1: and we've done it here the importance of having a

559
00:28:01,678 --> 00:28:04,398
Speaker 1: good coaching staff and the difference they can make, and

560
00:28:04,478 --> 00:28:07,038
Speaker 1: yet the valuation in terms of what these guys are paid.

561
00:28:07,118 --> 00:28:09,478
Speaker 1: Really hasn't changed much over the years, Joe, Can you

562
00:28:09,558 --> 00:28:12,558
Speaker 1: explain what's going on here other than they take advantage

563
00:28:12,598 --> 00:28:14,758
Speaker 1: of the fact that there's only so many of these jobs,

564
00:28:14,758 --> 00:28:18,478
Speaker 1: and these guys are baseball lifers who want those jobs.

565
00:28:19,118 --> 00:28:20,798
Speaker 4: Yeah, first of all, maybe they should get paid by

566
00:28:20,798 --> 00:28:25,318
Speaker 4: the hour, right, If they walked in there and asked

567
00:28:25,358 --> 00:28:27,318
Speaker 4: to be paid by the hour as opposed to a salary,

568
00:28:27,798 --> 00:28:31,358
Speaker 4: they did, they would the ownership, the front officers would

569
00:28:31,398 --> 00:28:34,118
Speaker 4: run away from that. These guys do spend that much

570
00:28:34,158 --> 00:28:35,398
Speaker 4: time in a clubhouse.

571
00:28:35,438 --> 00:28:38,838
Speaker 3: They do. And it's not only that. It's like I've

572
00:28:38,878 --> 00:28:40,198
Speaker 3: had hitting coaches.

573
00:28:39,878 --> 00:28:42,798
Speaker 4: Like John Mayley, for instance, in Chicago. Johnny would go

574
00:28:42,838 --> 00:28:46,038
Speaker 4: over from where he lived near Wrigley. He'd go to

575
00:28:46,078 --> 00:28:48,878
Speaker 4: the clubhouse in the morning to get ready for the

576
00:28:48,918 --> 00:28:51,878
Speaker 4: game that night. And there's not you can't. You can't

577
00:28:51,918 --> 00:28:55,558
Speaker 4: convince me yet all that time was necessary. You cannot

578
00:28:55,638 --> 00:28:58,398
Speaker 4: convince me of that. It's not true. There's gonna be

579
00:28:58,478 --> 00:29:01,518
Speaker 4: diminishing returns of staring at a screen. There's I mean,

580
00:29:01,838 --> 00:29:05,798
Speaker 4: you really can't focus that law that hard every day.

581
00:29:06,038 --> 00:29:08,878
Speaker 4: And I used to tell them, Johnny Police, they don't

582
00:29:08,918 --> 00:29:10,878
Speaker 4: go there that early. I want you to stay away,

583
00:29:11,558 --> 00:29:14,238
Speaker 4: get a little bit rest, come in there fresh. Those

584
00:29:14,238 --> 00:29:16,998
Speaker 4: are the kind of thoughts I had. It's really, i

585
00:29:17,278 --> 00:29:19,878
Speaker 4: want to say, devolved into it. I mean, there's only

586
00:29:20,118 --> 00:29:22,038
Speaker 4: so much work you need to get done in a day,

587
00:29:22,998 --> 00:29:25,638
Speaker 4: and all this early stuff, a lot of the early

588
00:29:25,678 --> 00:29:28,358
Speaker 4: reporting for years is just about drinking coffee and watching

589
00:29:28,398 --> 00:29:30,718
Speaker 4: TV or playing cards. That was a big part of

590
00:29:30,758 --> 00:29:33,318
Speaker 4: coming to the park early. Now they get there early

591
00:29:33,358 --> 00:29:36,638
Speaker 4: and they sit and they look at laptops, computers, whatever,

592
00:29:36,798 --> 00:29:41,598
Speaker 4: or sheets, and they somehow believe that by looking at

593
00:29:41,638 --> 00:29:44,078
Speaker 4: all this stuff it's going to make them better. If

594
00:29:44,078 --> 00:29:46,198
Speaker 4: it was that easy, who would ever lose? I mean,

595
00:29:46,518 --> 00:29:48,878
Speaker 4: it's always going to be about having better players. If

596
00:29:48,918 --> 00:29:52,358
Speaker 4: you have better players, then the amount of time necessary

597
00:29:52,398 --> 00:29:56,558
Speaker 4: to pour over this stuff might become minimized or obviously

598
00:29:56,638 --> 00:30:00,478
Speaker 4: less important. But anyway, it's overblown.

599
00:30:00,598 --> 00:30:01,438
Speaker 3: Quite frankly, it is.

600
00:30:01,518 --> 00:30:04,838
Speaker 4: I prefer a well rested mind and body getting just

601
00:30:04,918 --> 00:30:07,478
Speaker 4: the requisite amount of work on a daily boat a

602
00:30:07,558 --> 00:30:10,478
Speaker 4: basis as opposed to the eyewash guys. I'm telling you

603
00:30:10,518 --> 00:30:12,758
Speaker 4: they're out there. It's too much. You don't need all

604
00:30:12,798 --> 00:30:17,598
Speaker 4: that stuffy they swing themselves out of into slumps. And anyway,

605
00:30:17,758 --> 00:30:20,358
Speaker 4: that's that's a pet peeve of mine. Obviously, why don't

606
00:30:20,358 --> 00:30:23,838
Speaker 4: they get paid more because the front office wise, they

607
00:30:23,878 --> 00:30:27,838
Speaker 4: really feel that they're they're they're discardible. I mean, we

608
00:30:27,838 --> 00:30:29,518
Speaker 4: could get another one, we could get another one of

609
00:30:29,558 --> 00:30:32,398
Speaker 4: these coaches. We're gonna use this guy, use this guy,

610
00:30:32,398 --> 00:30:36,398
Speaker 4: and if the player doesn't match up to what the

611
00:30:36,398 --> 00:30:39,358
Speaker 4: the perceived number should be in regards to hitting, whatever

612
00:30:39,398 --> 00:30:41,918
Speaker 4: it might be pitching, then the coach is going to

613
00:30:41,918 --> 00:30:43,838
Speaker 4: be the guy to take the hit. And thus, if

614
00:30:43,878 --> 00:30:45,798
Speaker 4: I don't have a lot of money invested in this guy,

615
00:30:45,838 --> 00:30:48,518
Speaker 4: then it's easier to get rid of them. Quite frankly,

616
00:30:49,198 --> 00:30:51,798
Speaker 4: you're talking about coaching staff's the ability. Really, that's the

617
00:30:51,838 --> 00:30:52,438
Speaker 4: way to do it.

618
00:30:52,478 --> 00:30:52,718
Speaker 3: Man.

619
00:30:52,998 --> 00:30:55,798
Speaker 4: You get you find the best, you believe to be

620
00:30:55,878 --> 00:30:57,918
Speaker 4: the best in the industry. You hire these guys and

621
00:30:57,958 --> 00:31:00,678
Speaker 4: you pay them and you keep them. That's I don't

622
00:31:00,678 --> 00:31:02,158
Speaker 4: even know how many wins that's gonna be worth on

623
00:31:02,198 --> 00:31:04,718
Speaker 4: an annual basis if you're smart and to do something

624
00:31:04,838 --> 00:31:07,598
Speaker 4: like that, because it's going to be worth wins annually,

625
00:31:07,878 --> 00:31:11,718
Speaker 4: it's going to be that. That's stability manager of the

626
00:31:11,758 --> 00:31:14,558
Speaker 4: coaching staff of the players. Every time you report the

627
00:31:14,558 --> 00:31:16,998
Speaker 4: spring training gets an easier walk in the front door.

628
00:31:18,478 --> 00:31:20,318
Speaker 3: Too many times these guys.

629
00:31:20,118 --> 00:31:23,358
Speaker 4: Are blamed for when a player goes poorly, and sometimes

630
00:31:23,398 --> 00:31:25,598
Speaker 4: they're given too much credit when they go well. It's

631
00:31:25,678 --> 00:31:29,798
Speaker 4: it's about hiring better players. If you want a better team,

632
00:31:30,118 --> 00:31:32,238
Speaker 4: spend a more a couple more bucks, get better players,

633
00:31:32,278 --> 00:31:35,358
Speaker 4: improve your scouting a development department, and then everybody else

634
00:31:35,478 --> 00:31:38,278
Speaker 4: is going to start looking better. But it's the fact

635
00:31:38,318 --> 00:31:42,158
Speaker 4: that they're they're fine, They're they're almost disposable in a

636
00:31:42,158 --> 00:31:45,118
Speaker 4: lot of people's minds coaches, and because of that, the

637
00:31:45,198 --> 00:31:48,198
Speaker 4: salaries are going to remain low. But I'm here to

638
00:31:48,198 --> 00:31:50,078
Speaker 4: tell you, like I just said, I would hire if

639
00:31:50,078 --> 00:31:52,918
Speaker 4: I had the opportunity, whom I perceived to be the best,

640
00:31:52,958 --> 00:31:55,038
Speaker 4: and would pay them, and I would want to keep them.

641
00:31:55,278 --> 00:31:58,678
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up stability because obviously you knew

642
00:31:58,718 --> 00:32:01,238
Speaker 1: that with the Angels when you were part of that staff.

643
00:32:01,558 --> 00:32:04,478
Speaker 1: Your staff with Tampa Bay a lot of stability. I

644
00:32:04,558 --> 00:32:07,118
Speaker 1: mentioned the Dodgers, the stability that they have over the

645
00:32:07,158 --> 00:32:09,998
Speaker 1: last six seven, eight years under Dave Roberts. To me,

646
00:32:10,118 --> 00:32:12,438
Speaker 1: that's so important, Joe. If you notice a lot of

647
00:32:12,478 --> 00:32:15,918
Speaker 1: these coaches, they just get hired somewhere else. So I

648
00:32:15,958 --> 00:32:18,318
Speaker 1: almost feel like front offices feel like they have to

649
00:32:18,358 --> 00:32:22,478
Speaker 1: do something, you know, if the performance isn't what they

650
00:32:22,798 --> 00:32:26,998
Speaker 1: think it should be or what their charts suggested it

651
00:32:27,038 --> 00:32:29,278
Speaker 1: should be, they have to make a change. Usually a

652
00:32:29,278 --> 00:32:32,798
Speaker 1: pitching coach, hitting coach, sometimes the base coaches changed for

653
00:32:32,838 --> 00:32:35,558
Speaker 1: the sake of change. I can't stand that, and I

654
00:32:35,598 --> 00:32:38,478
Speaker 1: think there's so there's so much to be gained by stability.

655
00:32:38,558 --> 00:32:40,718
Speaker 1: I remember talking to Chad Mattola, the hitting coach with

656
00:32:40,758 --> 00:32:43,438
Speaker 1: the Rays and the Rays that pretty good stability there

657
00:32:43,478 --> 00:32:47,038
Speaker 1: with Kevin Cash, and he talked about having even having

658
00:32:47,078 --> 00:32:48,118
Speaker 1: the same players as well.

659
00:32:48,158 --> 00:32:49,358
Speaker 2: Stability is so big.

660
00:32:49,358 --> 00:32:51,838
Speaker 1: You can just build on the foundation that you've built,

661
00:32:51,958 --> 00:32:54,678
Speaker 1: rather than, as he said, every year, trying to build

662
00:32:54,718 --> 00:32:57,118
Speaker 1: a foundation with a new group of guys. And I

663
00:32:57,118 --> 00:32:58,878
Speaker 1: remember Mike, you've seen it when he came to the

664
00:32:58,998 --> 00:33:01,478
Speaker 1: Yankees as a free agent. I don't know how many

665
00:33:01,478 --> 00:33:03,878
Speaker 1: pitching coaches he had in Baltimore in his six years.

666
00:33:03,998 --> 00:33:05,958
Speaker 2: There was something like four or five or six.

667
00:33:06,038 --> 00:33:08,238
Speaker 1: Like every year the pitching coach would change and someone

668
00:33:08,278 --> 00:33:10,078
Speaker 1: would come in with new ideas, and you have to

669
00:33:10,078 --> 00:33:13,758
Speaker 1: reinvent yourself. You never get to that four hundred level

670
00:33:13,798 --> 00:33:17,638
Speaker 1: class with your teacher. When the coaching staff flips over

671
00:33:17,718 --> 00:33:20,918
Speaker 1: so many times, so listen, sometimes you do need to

672
00:33:20,918 --> 00:33:22,998
Speaker 1: make a change. I get it, But change for the

673
00:33:23,038 --> 00:33:26,238
Speaker 1: sake of change is not worth risking. I think the

674
00:33:26,278 --> 00:33:28,678
Speaker 1: bonus that you get from stability, I'll.

675
00:33:28,478 --> 00:33:31,118
Speaker 4: Tell you, quite frankly, before you go on. I think

676
00:33:31,278 --> 00:33:33,878
Speaker 4: the whole time I was doing that, from the Rays

677
00:33:33,998 --> 00:33:38,598
Speaker 4: through the Cubs to the Angels, there might have been

678
00:33:39,398 --> 00:33:42,918
Speaker 4: two coaches that I would have let go from the

679
00:33:42,918 --> 00:33:46,118
Speaker 4: original group that I got. Maybe three, that's it. I

680
00:33:46,158 --> 00:33:49,598
Speaker 4: maybe one in Tampa, maybe one in Chicago. One with

681
00:33:49,678 --> 00:33:50,318
Speaker 4: the Angels.

682
00:33:50,718 --> 00:33:51,158
Speaker 3: That's it.

683
00:33:51,358 --> 00:33:54,558
Speaker 4: Otherwise for me, if it was up to me to retain,

684
00:33:56,158 --> 00:33:59,638
Speaker 4: quite frankly, I would not. And furthermore, I've always thought

685
00:33:59,678 --> 00:34:02,278
Speaker 4: this too, and this goes back to my instructionally training

686
00:34:03,678 --> 00:34:06,638
Speaker 4: when I as a running the minor league system. If

687
00:34:06,638 --> 00:34:08,438
Speaker 4: I had to let a coach go or a manager

688
00:34:08,518 --> 00:34:10,638
Speaker 4: go the next year, if we did, I felt it

689
00:34:10,758 --> 00:34:12,998
Speaker 4: was my fault. I felt two things. I failed on

690
00:34:13,598 --> 00:34:17,158
Speaker 4: the hiring process. I did not hire properly, and then

691
00:34:17,278 --> 00:34:19,878
Speaker 4: b I did not train properly. I was not there

692
00:34:19,958 --> 00:34:23,318
Speaker 4: for this person properly. So that's part of it that

693
00:34:23,398 --> 00:34:26,238
Speaker 4: nobody ever considers. When you have to let people go constantly,

694
00:34:27,198 --> 00:34:30,318
Speaker 4: Come on, that's a bad process regarding how you're hiring

695
00:34:30,318 --> 00:34:32,518
Speaker 4: these people in the first place. When I took a

696
00:34:32,718 --> 00:34:35,718
Speaker 4: player to Instructional League and then we had to release

697
00:34:35,798 --> 00:34:37,078
Speaker 4: the next spring training.

698
00:34:37,798 --> 00:34:39,638
Speaker 3: I wanted a job. I wanted to kill myself.

699
00:34:39,678 --> 00:34:41,158
Speaker 4: I mean, that was like the worst thing I could

700
00:34:41,158 --> 00:34:44,278
Speaker 4: possibly do as a field coordinator is to push for

701
00:34:44,358 --> 00:34:46,878
Speaker 4: somebody to come to instructional League and by next spring

702
00:34:46,918 --> 00:34:49,318
Speaker 4: training you got to let this guy go. That's poor

703
00:34:49,438 --> 00:34:51,998
Speaker 4: decision making on my part. And those are the kind

704
00:34:52,038 --> 00:34:56,278
Speaker 4: of thoughts or items that nobody considers, I don't think enough.

705
00:34:56,638 --> 00:34:59,638
Speaker 4: So when you're constantly making change, that means your hiring

706
00:34:59,718 --> 00:35:01,278
Speaker 4: process is pretty flawed.

707
00:35:01,718 --> 00:35:04,838
Speaker 2: Bench coaches, what do they do? How important are they?

708
00:35:05,638 --> 00:35:07,678
Speaker 2: We need to dive into that and we'll do that

709
00:35:07,838 --> 00:35:20,518
Speaker 2: next Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

710
00:35:20,838 --> 00:35:24,878
Speaker 1: Whenever I see new managers hired, I'm always curious who's

711
00:35:24,958 --> 00:35:27,078
Speaker 1: going to be their right hand man, who's going to

712
00:35:27,118 --> 00:35:29,838
Speaker 1: be their Don Zimmer, who's going to be their bench coach?

713
00:35:30,198 --> 00:35:33,078
Speaker 1: Right I think it says a lot about the manager,

714
00:35:33,238 --> 00:35:36,118
Speaker 1: his comfort level. I think it's super important for a

715
00:35:36,158 --> 00:35:39,478
Speaker 1: front office to allow manager to hire his own bench coach.

716
00:35:39,558 --> 00:35:41,518
Speaker 1: You really have to work hand in glove with your

717
00:35:41,558 --> 00:35:46,718
Speaker 1: be coach. So you want a relationship that's already been established,

718
00:35:46,838 --> 00:35:49,958
Speaker 1: rather than hoping you've found the right one. So let

719
00:35:49,998 --> 00:35:51,998
Speaker 1: me go through some of the bench coaches that were

720
00:35:52,118 --> 00:35:55,518
Speaker 1: hired along with the new managers this year. I mentioned

721
00:35:55,558 --> 00:35:58,358
Speaker 1: the Giants and Bob Melbyn. He brought back Ryan Christiansen

722
00:35:58,438 --> 00:36:01,318
Speaker 1: with him. They were great in San Diego. Brings him

723
00:36:01,358 --> 00:36:03,798
Speaker 1: over there again. Another guy with a lot of experience,

724
00:36:03,958 --> 00:36:07,718
Speaker 1: a very experienced Giants coaching staff, Pat Murphy in Milwaukee

725
00:36:07,918 --> 00:36:10,798
Speaker 1: gets Ricky Weeks Junior. I good to see Ricky getting

726
00:36:10,838 --> 00:36:13,118
Speaker 1: an opportunity now at the big league level. So I

727
00:36:13,198 --> 00:36:16,118
Speaker 1: guess Murph, being a bench coach himself, all his experience,

728
00:36:16,598 --> 00:36:18,918
Speaker 1: he can quote unquote break in a new guy, no

729
00:36:19,078 --> 00:36:24,278
Speaker 1: problem there. Steven Voight with Cleveland brings in Craig almanas

730
00:36:24,558 --> 00:36:27,478
Speaker 1: they know each other from coaching and playing with the Giants,

731
00:36:28,198 --> 00:36:32,078
Speaker 1: so both on the younger side. But again there's a

732
00:36:32,158 --> 00:36:36,638
Speaker 1: chemistry already established. Ron Washington with the Angels keeps Ray

733
00:36:36,718 --> 00:36:42,078
Speaker 1: Montgomery there. Carlos Mendoza, new manager New York Mets hires

734
00:36:42,158 --> 00:36:42,878
Speaker 1: John Gibbons.

735
00:36:43,038 --> 00:36:45,918
Speaker 2: I love that hire. I think that's really good. Gibbey,

736
00:36:46,038 --> 00:36:48,598
Speaker 2: going back to his playing days, started in the Mets system.

737
00:36:50,158 --> 00:36:52,278
Speaker 1: By the way, he was my manager with the Blue

738
00:36:52,358 --> 00:36:54,518
Speaker 1: Jays when I spent spring training with the Blue Jays.

739
00:36:54,918 --> 00:36:57,558
Speaker 1: Great dude, I can see why players love playing for him.

740
00:36:57,918 --> 00:36:59,678
Speaker 1: Good to see him back in the game. I thought

741
00:36:59,678 --> 00:37:00,518
Speaker 1: that was a great hire.

742
00:37:01,238 --> 00:37:01,638
Speaker 2: JOSEA.

743
00:37:01,718 --> 00:37:06,278
Speaker 1: Spata rather Joe Espata with the Astros brings actually promotes

744
00:37:06,438 --> 00:37:10,598
Speaker 1: Omar Lopez was the first base coach in the Cubs.

745
00:37:10,918 --> 00:37:14,358
Speaker 1: Craig Counsel has Ryan Flaherty came over from the Padres

746
00:37:14,878 --> 00:37:18,078
Speaker 1: where you a lot of sway with Bob Melvin staff there.

747
00:37:18,958 --> 00:37:19,678
Speaker 2: This is interesting.

748
00:37:19,798 --> 00:37:22,438
Speaker 1: Mike Schilt gets the job in San Diego and did

749
00:37:22,518 --> 00:37:25,318
Speaker 1: not designate a bench coach. I mean, he's got a

750
00:37:25,358 --> 00:37:30,398
Speaker 1: lot of people sharing different responsibilities, but nobody with that hire. So, Joe,

751
00:37:30,478 --> 00:37:32,958
Speaker 1: what stands out for you when you think about bench

752
00:37:33,038 --> 00:37:35,918
Speaker 1: coaches in this round of hires of new managers.

753
00:37:36,398 --> 00:37:39,478
Speaker 4: First off, I love Gibbee too. I thought John Gibbons

754
00:37:39,598 --> 00:37:41,798
Speaker 4: was a very good game manager in Toronto.

755
00:37:41,998 --> 00:37:45,038
Speaker 2: And excellent, by the way, especially with Bullpens.

756
00:37:45,078 --> 00:37:46,318
Speaker 4: I thought it was really good. You had to be

757
00:37:46,358 --> 00:37:48,358
Speaker 4: on your toes with Johnny. I used to love my

758
00:37:48,438 --> 00:37:52,838
Speaker 4: conversations with them too. Okay for the bench coach, stop

759
00:37:52,918 --> 00:37:56,038
Speaker 4: thinking about strategy. I mean, I think to a certain extent,

760
00:37:56,158 --> 00:38:00,838
Speaker 4: probably Zim and Tory discussed strategy as much as anybody.

761
00:38:01,358 --> 00:38:03,678
Speaker 4: But I'm here to tell you as a as a manager,

762
00:38:03,958 --> 00:38:05,798
Speaker 4: did not need my bench coach to provide a lot

763
00:38:05,878 --> 00:38:08,638
Speaker 4: of strategy for me, because, Wow, I get locked in

764
00:38:08,798 --> 00:38:09,358
Speaker 4: during the game.

765
00:38:09,478 --> 00:38:11,638
Speaker 3: And it's not an egotistical thing by any means.

766
00:38:12,038 --> 00:38:17,078
Speaker 4: My thoughts race pretty pretty quickly, and you when people

767
00:38:17,158 --> 00:38:18,998
Speaker 4: start talking to you too much during a game, it

768
00:38:19,038 --> 00:38:23,318
Speaker 4: could only interfere with that process. If I needed something,

769
00:38:23,598 --> 00:38:26,518
Speaker 4: I would ask for it. And then, like for instance,

770
00:38:26,558 --> 00:38:28,798
Speaker 4: when Davey Martinez was around, if you're with the guy

771
00:38:28,918 --> 00:38:30,998
Speaker 4: for a while, just like you're talking about with these fellows,

772
00:38:31,638 --> 00:38:34,998
Speaker 4: an easier interjection somebody that you've been around and he

773
00:38:35,078 --> 00:38:37,078
Speaker 4: knows how you're thinking, and maybe you just missed something

774
00:38:37,118 --> 00:38:40,238
Speaker 4: and he realizes you talked about it before and he'll

775
00:38:40,318 --> 00:38:40,998
Speaker 4: jump right in there.

776
00:38:41,038 --> 00:38:42,278
Speaker 3: So love that.

777
00:38:42,518 --> 00:38:44,918
Speaker 4: But it was not a strategical position by any means.

778
00:38:44,998 --> 00:38:48,358
Speaker 4: I don't think, especially for an experienced manager. You've talked

779
00:38:48,398 --> 00:38:51,358
Speaker 4: about I'll be with voter Albi was. They were both

780
00:38:51,398 --> 00:38:54,398
Speaker 4: together with the race. That's where it started. Albi's got

781
00:38:54,398 --> 00:38:56,158
Speaker 4: one of the best throwing strokes I've ever seen in

782
00:38:56,238 --> 00:38:56,518
Speaker 4: my life.

783
00:38:56,518 --> 00:38:57,758
Speaker 3: He's gonna throw great VP people.

784
00:38:58,758 --> 00:39:01,598
Speaker 4: The other thing is having a good bench bench coach.

785
00:39:02,118 --> 00:39:04,918
Speaker 4: What he's there to do is to permit the manager

786
00:39:04,998 --> 00:39:08,678
Speaker 4: to intellectualize the day. He does all the minutia. He

787
00:39:08,758 --> 00:39:11,598
Speaker 4: does all the other work, whether it's the putting together

788
00:39:11,678 --> 00:39:16,958
Speaker 4: the lineup stuff on paper, bringing information together, disseminating information,

789
00:39:17,798 --> 00:39:20,598
Speaker 4: and also there might be a couple of tough conversations

790
00:39:21,118 --> 00:39:22,918
Speaker 4: that need to be had that the manager does not

791
00:39:23,038 --> 00:39:25,878
Speaker 4: need to know about. A good bench coach will clear

792
00:39:25,958 --> 00:39:28,198
Speaker 4: that up before it ever gets to you. He really

793
00:39:28,278 --> 00:39:30,518
Speaker 4: permits you to walk in the door and do what

794
00:39:30,598 --> 00:39:32,838
Speaker 4: you got to do, which is manage the game. It's

795
00:39:32,838 --> 00:39:35,638
Speaker 4: a lot of it's talking to the press, maybe some

796
00:39:35,798 --> 00:39:39,078
Speaker 4: of it is talking to a couple of different players,

797
00:39:39,158 --> 00:39:41,438
Speaker 4: whatever it might be. But there's a lot of conversations

798
00:39:41,518 --> 00:39:45,598
Speaker 4: going on here, and it just really absorbs a lot

799
00:39:45,678 --> 00:39:47,718
Speaker 4: of your day. There might be a couple guys that

800
00:39:47,798 --> 00:39:49,438
Speaker 4: you want to talk to, a couple of things that

801
00:39:49,558 --> 00:39:51,238
Speaker 4: you want to touch on that day too when you

802
00:39:51,358 --> 00:39:53,798
Speaker 4: walk in the door. So for me, the bench coach,

803
00:39:54,718 --> 00:39:57,478
Speaker 4: get away from the strategical thing. It's not about strategy.

804
00:39:57,758 --> 00:40:01,238
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you do think about Zim and Toy

805
00:40:01,918 --> 00:40:04,718
Speaker 1: and strategy was definitely part of their relationship. And it

806
00:40:04,758 --> 00:40:07,038
Speaker 1: goes back to your line that from Don Zimmer to you,

807
00:40:07,718 --> 00:40:09,478
Speaker 1: you know, if it comes to your mind, go ahead

808
00:40:09,478 --> 00:40:12,158
Speaker 1: and do it. And you know Joe Tory from the beginning,

809
00:40:12,318 --> 00:40:14,998
Speaker 1: and they actually didn't know each other that well when

810
00:40:15,038 --> 00:40:17,518
Speaker 1: they were put together in ninety six with the Yankees,

811
00:40:17,598 --> 00:40:23,678
Speaker 1: but Zimmer was great at bringing up just ideas, Hey Joe,

812
00:40:23,758 --> 00:40:25,158
Speaker 1: how about starting the runner here?

813
00:40:25,638 --> 00:40:27,078
Speaker 2: Or Hey, who's got next inning?

814
00:40:27,118 --> 00:40:30,358
Speaker 1: If we take the lead here, And yeah, it didn't

815
00:40:30,358 --> 00:40:32,838
Speaker 1: mean that Joe Tory listened to Don Zimmer every time,

816
00:40:32,918 --> 00:40:35,158
Speaker 1: but that was a voice in his ear that made Joe.

817
00:40:35,358 --> 00:40:39,038
Speaker 1: I think it made Joe a little more aggressive and

818
00:40:39,118 --> 00:40:41,438
Speaker 1: putting things on And sometimes you have to say, that's

819
00:40:41,438 --> 00:40:45,398
Speaker 1: a great idea, Zim, but thanks, no thanks. But they

820
00:40:45,478 --> 00:40:48,798
Speaker 1: had that relationship where they could Zim could bounce an

821
00:40:48,838 --> 00:40:50,878
Speaker 1: idea off Joe and if he didn't use it, it

822
00:40:51,238 --> 00:40:56,198
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't personally taken personally by Don Zimmer. So that

823
00:40:56,478 --> 00:40:59,038
Speaker 1: to me is sort of I mean, to me, Zimmer

824
00:40:59,158 --> 00:41:01,798
Speaker 1: kind of defined that position, Joe. It really wasn't a

825
00:41:02,438 --> 00:41:05,158
Speaker 1: designated position until on Zimmer put a name in a

826
00:41:05,238 --> 00:41:08,318
Speaker 1: face and an idea to it. So that's our idea

827
00:41:08,558 --> 00:41:10,478
Speaker 1: now of what a bench coach is like. This guy

828
00:41:10,638 --> 00:41:12,478
Speaker 1: is sort of the eyes and ears for a manager

829
00:41:12,558 --> 00:41:15,278
Speaker 1: and can can help with strategy. But you're telling me

830
00:41:16,158 --> 00:41:20,118
Speaker 1: that maybe it's not all that much of a strategic position.

831
00:41:20,438 --> 00:41:22,438
Speaker 4: Well, when I took the job over as a bench

832
00:41:22,478 --> 00:41:27,758
Speaker 4: coach in ninety six, right, yeah, yeah, ninety six, nobody

833
00:41:27,798 --> 00:41:29,918
Speaker 4: there was no There was no template for that, and

834
00:41:30,038 --> 00:41:32,278
Speaker 4: I thought I had to define what a bench coach

835
00:41:32,358 --> 00:41:35,958
Speaker 4: does exactly we're talking about right now, And for me,

836
00:41:36,158 --> 00:41:39,278
Speaker 4: that's everything I talked about intellectualizing. The day I created

837
00:41:39,318 --> 00:41:42,278
Speaker 4: all these charts. You talk about charts, I used to

838
00:41:42,438 --> 00:41:46,318
Speaker 4: wallpaper the wall of the dugout every day with different charts,

839
00:41:46,398 --> 00:41:50,038
Speaker 4: whether the council, the team's going to run on, break down,

840
00:41:50,198 --> 00:41:53,278
Speaker 4: a splits right versus right versus left, the way I

841
00:41:53,318 --> 00:41:56,318
Speaker 4: would set up different colors right left and switch hitters.

842
00:41:57,638 --> 00:41:59,958
Speaker 4: I would do all this stuff all day long in

843
00:42:00,078 --> 00:42:02,238
Speaker 4: order to have this stuff on the wall from my

844
00:42:02,358 --> 00:42:06,918
Speaker 4: manager that night. Quite frankly, I did a lot of

845
00:42:06,958 --> 00:42:10,478
Speaker 4: the stuff that's being done now began when I started

846
00:42:10,518 --> 00:42:15,158
Speaker 4: doing this in the mid nineties, because I even in Arizona,

847
00:42:15,238 --> 00:42:16,958
Speaker 4: a lot of the coaches out there would ask me.

848
00:42:16,998 --> 00:42:18,998
Speaker 3: About my stuff and I would give them.

849
00:42:19,078 --> 00:42:21,158
Speaker 4: I would print some stuff out for them, give it

850
00:42:21,238 --> 00:42:23,438
Speaker 4: to them so that they could take and run with

851
00:42:23,518 --> 00:42:26,238
Speaker 4: it themselves. So a lot of this for me was

852
00:42:26,318 --> 00:42:27,838
Speaker 4: again to supplement my manager.

853
00:42:28,758 --> 00:42:31,838
Speaker 3: If you to Thom's my manager.

854
00:42:31,878 --> 00:42:33,718
Speaker 4: And you asked me for something during the game that

855
00:42:33,838 --> 00:42:35,878
Speaker 4: now you asked me a question and I didn't have

856
00:42:36,078 --> 00:42:38,438
Speaker 4: that answer, and I did not have it on the board,

857
00:42:39,678 --> 00:42:41,678
Speaker 4: It's there the next night, and it's there every night

858
00:42:41,758 --> 00:42:43,998
Speaker 4: after that. So it's kind of a living document for

859
00:42:44,078 --> 00:42:46,318
Speaker 4: me regarding how it would feed my manager on a

860
00:42:46,438 --> 00:42:48,998
Speaker 4: nightly basis. It was a lot of it was based

861
00:42:49,038 --> 00:42:52,038
Speaker 4: on things that I had done in the past, and

862
00:42:52,158 --> 00:42:54,118
Speaker 4: because a lot of these managers, whether it was Marsol

863
00:42:54,238 --> 00:42:57,678
Speaker 4: or TC or whatever, they had never really done this

864
00:42:58,198 --> 00:43:00,918
Speaker 4: either themselves, so it was new to them. So they're

865
00:43:00,998 --> 00:43:04,878
Speaker 4: watching it, they're seeing it, and they're bringing their little

866
00:43:04,958 --> 00:43:08,718
Speaker 4: suggestions to me, and just keep feeding this document keep

867
00:43:08,758 --> 00:43:11,278
Speaker 4: feeding this document, and it would take me from about

868
00:43:11,318 --> 00:43:14,518
Speaker 4: twelve thirty every day till like about five o'clock in

869
00:43:14,558 --> 00:43:17,478
Speaker 4: the afternoon during VP to get all my stuff done

870
00:43:17,478 --> 00:43:19,198
Speaker 4: and then ready to be posted on the wall and

871
00:43:19,238 --> 00:43:20,078
Speaker 4: presented to the team.

872
00:43:20,598 --> 00:43:23,318
Speaker 3: So that's that's what I did as a bench coach.

873
00:43:23,438 --> 00:43:26,758
Speaker 3: I was there to make it easier for my manager.

874
00:43:28,398 --> 00:43:31,438
Speaker 4: I was there to again, during the game, think about

875
00:43:31,478 --> 00:43:35,558
Speaker 4: this strategically speaking, anything I might say to my manager.

876
00:43:36,238 --> 00:43:40,758
Speaker 4: If in fact my conversation or my thoughts weren't necessarily

877
00:43:40,878 --> 00:43:43,118
Speaker 4: good ones, this guy's gonna have to answer for it

878
00:43:43,198 --> 00:43:45,478
Speaker 4: after the game. And that's what I used to think

879
00:43:45,478 --> 00:43:47,638
Speaker 4: to myself. So if I wanted to present to my

880
00:43:47,718 --> 00:43:51,358
Speaker 4: manager at all, I could not take it lightly. It

881
00:43:51,478 --> 00:43:53,798
Speaker 4: had to be something I was really convicted about, really

882
00:43:53,878 --> 00:43:56,918
Speaker 4: convicted to, And that's the only time I would present

883
00:43:57,158 --> 00:43:58,158
Speaker 4: a thought to him.

884
00:43:58,758 --> 00:44:00,158
Speaker 3: Because I'm telling you, man, I.

885
00:44:00,438 --> 00:44:02,678
Speaker 4: Managed so many years in the minor leagues and I

886
00:44:02,758 --> 00:44:05,518
Speaker 4: was around that So in my mind during any game,

887
00:44:06,558 --> 00:44:08,038
Speaker 4: I don't like it to be interrupted. I like that

888
00:44:09,118 --> 00:44:11,758
Speaker 4: train of thought, that stream of consciousness, it's really what

889
00:44:11,878 --> 00:44:14,558
Speaker 4: it is. When it gets interrupted, sometimes well it just

890
00:44:15,598 --> 00:44:17,558
Speaker 4: I never get angry, but it takes me off my

891
00:44:17,638 --> 00:44:18,878
Speaker 4: game a little bit, quite frankly.

892
00:44:18,998 --> 00:44:21,798
Speaker 3: So that's my definition of a bench coach.

893
00:44:21,878 --> 00:44:25,478
Speaker 4: That's what I did as a bench coach, and that

894
00:44:25,678 --> 00:44:29,438
Speaker 4: was my interpretation mid nineties that I built upon until

895
00:44:29,478 --> 00:44:32,078
Speaker 4: I stopped doing it in two thousand and six. And

896
00:44:32,198 --> 00:44:34,518
Speaker 4: quite frankly, a lot of other dudes that became bench

897
00:44:34,598 --> 00:44:37,198
Speaker 4: coaches would ask me about the stuff I was doing

898
00:44:37,558 --> 00:44:39,438
Speaker 4: that they would present the same thing on the walls

899
00:44:40,038 --> 00:44:40,718
Speaker 4: to their manager.

900
00:44:41,358 --> 00:44:43,438
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you two examples where I think,

901
00:44:43,878 --> 00:44:46,958
Speaker 1: you know, having a bench coach who can present ideas

902
00:44:47,038 --> 00:44:50,958
Speaker 1: to a manager, you know, to me, again, you don't

903
00:44:50,958 --> 00:44:53,238
Speaker 1: want to do it, you know, every single pitch, but

904
00:44:53,838 --> 00:44:57,078
Speaker 1: it can be a benefit. I think about Game seven

905
00:44:57,158 --> 00:44:59,318
Speaker 1: of the two thousand and one World Series and Zim

906
00:44:59,398 --> 00:45:01,598
Speaker 1: and Tory are sitting next to each other as they

907
00:45:01,638 --> 00:45:05,478
Speaker 1: always did, and funds of Sorianna was at the plate

908
00:45:05,878 --> 00:45:10,318
Speaker 1: against Kurt Shilling, and the game is tied at that point,

909
00:45:11,078 --> 00:45:13,718
Speaker 1: and Zim needs to ask Joe, well, who do you

910
00:45:13,758 --> 00:45:16,878
Speaker 1: want to pitch the next inning? You know, and Soriano

911
00:45:16,958 --> 00:45:18,638
Speaker 1: pops one out of the ballpark and now they have

912
00:45:18,718 --> 00:45:20,958
Speaker 1: a lead, and they laugh because now it was obvious

913
00:45:21,038 --> 00:45:24,078
Speaker 1: that Mariano Rivera was coming into the game, but just

914
00:45:24,278 --> 00:45:27,478
Speaker 1: asking that question at that particular time, and it didn't

915
00:45:27,558 --> 00:45:30,638
Speaker 1: mean that Joe Tory hadn't thought about it, but you're

916
00:45:30,678 --> 00:45:32,918
Speaker 1: thinking out loud, for lack of a better phrase. And

917
00:45:32,958 --> 00:45:34,638
Speaker 1: the other example to me, I was at a game

918
00:45:34,678 --> 00:45:36,958
Speaker 1: in the postseason this year where I saw the bench

919
00:45:37,038 --> 00:45:40,878
Speaker 1: coach go up to the manager and say, hey, we

920
00:45:41,038 --> 00:45:43,518
Speaker 1: really should run for our guy at second base right here.

921
00:45:43,718 --> 00:45:44,558
Speaker 2: It was a close game.

922
00:45:44,598 --> 00:45:46,718
Speaker 1: The guy at second base didn't have a lot of speed,

923
00:45:47,198 --> 00:45:49,038
Speaker 1: one of the better hitters, but at that point in

924
00:45:49,158 --> 00:45:52,318
Speaker 1: scoring position, it would not have happened unless the bench

925
00:45:52,398 --> 00:45:54,358
Speaker 1: coach went up to the manager and said, hey, we

926
00:45:54,438 --> 00:45:57,878
Speaker 1: probably should get a runner in at second base. So

927
00:45:58,438 --> 00:46:00,478
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying, Joe, there must be times

928
00:46:00,478 --> 00:46:04,158
Speaker 1: where you want to empower your bench coach to get

929
00:46:04,198 --> 00:46:07,998
Speaker 1: involved with strategy because the manager doesn't know everything. He's

930
00:46:08,358 --> 00:46:10,838
Speaker 1: you know, he's not all knowing, and just having someone

931
00:46:10,878 --> 00:46:14,878
Speaker 1: who again like Zimmer, to present information where you don't

932
00:46:14,918 --> 00:46:18,518
Speaker 1: feel threatened or challenged, that's the ideal situation for me.

933
00:46:19,238 --> 00:46:21,398
Speaker 4: No, those are great examples though that You're absolutely right,

934
00:46:22,158 --> 00:46:25,558
Speaker 4: I misrepresented. That's those are little moments like that, And

935
00:46:25,638 --> 00:46:27,958
Speaker 4: that's what I'm saying, like Davey would know, because what

936
00:46:28,118 --> 00:46:31,038
Speaker 4: you want to do in moments like that before the

937
00:46:31,078 --> 00:46:34,238
Speaker 4: inning begins, you set that stuff up before the inning begins.

938
00:46:34,758 --> 00:46:37,278
Speaker 4: You you look at your lineup, you're trying to figure out,

939
00:46:37,278 --> 00:46:39,638
Speaker 4: you know, what may happen, talk to the pitching coach

940
00:46:39,678 --> 00:46:41,798
Speaker 4: and if it works out this way, I want this

941
00:46:41,918 --> 00:46:44,438
Speaker 4: guy ready. If things change, We're going to get this

942
00:46:44,518 --> 00:46:49,238
Speaker 4: spella ready. And that that's a conversation before anything begins.

943
00:46:49,718 --> 00:46:51,878
Speaker 4: And regarding your your pinch hitting and your pinch running

944
00:46:51,918 --> 00:46:54,238
Speaker 4: during the course of the eating again, that's something.

945
00:46:54,438 --> 00:46:55,598
Speaker 3: Yes, you do discuss that with.

946
00:46:55,638 --> 00:46:58,558
Speaker 4: Your bench coach before the inning begins because you want

947
00:46:58,638 --> 00:47:00,558
Speaker 4: him on that same sheet of music. And again you

948
00:47:00,638 --> 00:47:03,398
Speaker 4: want everything happening a little bit in advance and not

949
00:47:03,518 --> 00:47:06,198
Speaker 4: waiting to the last moment. There are times, Yeah, you're

950
00:47:06,198 --> 00:47:07,998
Speaker 4: gonna get caught with your pants down once in a while,

951
00:47:07,998 --> 00:47:09,038
Speaker 4: there's no question.

952
00:47:09,678 --> 00:47:10,518
Speaker 3: And it does happen.

953
00:47:10,598 --> 00:47:13,278
Speaker 4: And yes, a really good bench coach I have a

954
00:47:13,318 --> 00:47:16,238
Speaker 4: good report with is gonna remind you. And quite frankly,

955
00:47:16,358 --> 00:47:18,918
Speaker 4: the National League game was more set up for that

956
00:47:19,838 --> 00:47:22,358
Speaker 4: for the bench coach. The National League game as it

957
00:47:22,598 --> 00:47:27,918
Speaker 4: was Wow, there's some crazy stuff going on in a game,

958
00:47:27,998 --> 00:47:32,038
Speaker 4: and that's where people kind of pupoo that or you know,

959
00:47:32,158 --> 00:47:34,638
Speaker 4: didn't really understand and realize how complicated that.

960
00:47:34,718 --> 00:47:36,158
Speaker 3: Can get and how fast it can get.

961
00:47:36,758 --> 00:47:38,918
Speaker 4: Yes, a really good bench coach, and that's what I

962
00:47:38,958 --> 00:47:41,078
Speaker 4: was saying with Davy. He was really because that was

963
00:47:41,118 --> 00:47:42,558
Speaker 4: my time with the Cubs. He was there with me

964
00:47:42,998 --> 00:47:45,478
Speaker 4: pretty much the whole time. And then I had Hider

965
00:47:45,558 --> 00:47:49,878
Speaker 4: Brandon Hyde, and I also had Mark Loretta for a

966
00:47:49,958 --> 00:47:53,078
Speaker 4: bit there too, but Davy and then Hyder was really

967
00:47:53,158 --> 00:47:55,718
Speaker 4: good too. But no, you're right, I misrepresented what you

968
00:47:55,758 --> 00:47:56,438
Speaker 4: were talking about.

969
00:47:56,758 --> 00:47:59,958
Speaker 3: I was thinking in different situations, different ways. But yeah,

970
00:48:00,038 --> 00:48:01,558
Speaker 3: you set it up before the enning begins.

971
00:48:01,598 --> 00:48:03,838
Speaker 4: You talk to your guy and he has all these

972
00:48:03,998 --> 00:48:06,518
Speaker 4: things laid out so that when the when, the when

973
00:48:06,558 --> 00:48:09,478
Speaker 4: the moment is necessary, he has people ready.

974
00:48:09,598 --> 00:48:09,958
Speaker 3: Correct.

975
00:48:10,278 --> 00:48:12,318
Speaker 1: All right, now, I have to put you on the spot, Joe,

976
00:48:12,518 --> 00:48:14,958
Speaker 1: since we're talking about bench coaches, and I mentioned six

977
00:48:15,078 --> 00:48:18,238
Speaker 1: or seven former managers have come back and been hired

978
00:48:18,238 --> 00:48:21,518
Speaker 1: as bench coaches, and even one of your great mentors,

979
00:48:21,598 --> 00:48:25,718
Speaker 1: Gene Mack, late in his career, actually late in his life,

980
00:48:25,758 --> 00:48:27,878
Speaker 1: he came back to be a bench coach with Kansas

981
00:48:27,918 --> 00:48:32,638
Speaker 1: City for Bob Boone, is that anything like that interests

982
00:48:32,678 --> 00:48:34,918
Speaker 1: you in terms of coming back to the game as

983
00:48:34,958 --> 00:48:37,598
Speaker 1: a bench coach. I know, in the right situation, you

984
00:48:37,718 --> 00:48:40,158
Speaker 1: still got managing in your blood, there's no question about that.

985
00:48:41,598 --> 00:48:43,918
Speaker 1: Does the same apply to being somebody's bench coach.

986
00:48:44,638 --> 00:48:47,038
Speaker 4: It'd have to again, be the right guy, like you're

987
00:48:47,078 --> 00:48:50,918
Speaker 4: just talking about. Yeah, my ego doesn't get away in

988
00:48:51,038 --> 00:48:53,238
Speaker 4: the way of that whatsoever. It'd have to be an

989
00:48:53,238 --> 00:48:55,398
Speaker 4: interesting spot with the right kind of fellow, with the

990
00:48:55,478 --> 00:48:58,878
Speaker 4: right Again, it's always about the conversation. Somebody would have

991
00:48:58,918 --> 00:49:02,198
Speaker 4: to approach and tell me exactly what they're thinking and why,

992
00:49:02,838 --> 00:49:05,798
Speaker 4: And there'd have to be an absolute philosophical fit to

993
00:49:05,878 --> 00:49:08,838
Speaker 4: do something like that. But yeah, that's not I'm not

994
00:49:08,918 --> 00:49:11,438
Speaker 4: a post of that whatsoever. You know, things like that

995
00:49:11,558 --> 00:49:14,838
Speaker 4: are very interesting to me. It's all about defining exactly

996
00:49:14,878 --> 00:49:17,998
Speaker 4: what the expectations are in advance and making sure that

997
00:49:18,118 --> 00:49:22,078
Speaker 4: I'm able to fulfill those expectations. But yeah, that'd be

998
00:49:22,718 --> 00:49:24,398
Speaker 4: that'd be kind of fun too, to be with the

999
00:49:24,518 --> 00:49:29,158
Speaker 4: right group, the right guy, the right situation, the right city,

1000
00:49:29,238 --> 00:49:30,158
Speaker 4: everything all about that.

1001
00:49:31,198 --> 00:49:33,038
Speaker 3: It would be rather interesting, Yes.

1002
00:49:33,318 --> 00:49:36,238
Speaker 1: And for someone who has not managed before. Do you

1003
00:49:36,358 --> 00:49:39,998
Speaker 1: believe that the bench coach position is a good training

1004
00:49:40,078 --> 00:49:42,678
Speaker 1: ground to be a manager? Like, if I'm a general

1005
00:49:42,758 --> 00:49:44,838
Speaker 1: manager and I'm looking to hire someone, the fact that

1006
00:49:44,958 --> 00:49:49,478
Speaker 1: someone's been a bench coach and maybe has or has

1007
00:49:49,598 --> 00:49:52,438
Speaker 1: not minor league experience managing, but being a major league

1008
00:49:52,438 --> 00:49:56,078
Speaker 1: bench coach, does that prepare you well for the job

1009
00:49:56,158 --> 00:49:56,678
Speaker 1: of managing.

1010
00:49:57,318 --> 00:49:57,878
Speaker 3: I think it does.

1011
00:49:57,998 --> 00:49:59,518
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot to be said for that

1012
00:50:00,678 --> 00:50:04,038
Speaker 4: if the manager gives you a lot of responsibilities, like

1013
00:50:04,078 --> 00:50:08,598
Speaker 4: I said, with Marcel and Terry and so they gave

1014
00:50:08,678 --> 00:50:10,878
Speaker 4: me like god out of wide berth there, man, I

1015
00:50:10,958 --> 00:50:13,118
Speaker 4: was able to do a lot of different things. And again,

1016
00:50:13,118 --> 00:50:15,558
Speaker 4: when you're talking about this, you know it's confusing the

1017
00:50:15,598 --> 00:50:18,998
Speaker 4: word strategy. A lot of it to me is about

1018
00:50:19,038 --> 00:50:22,518
Speaker 4: preparation and then it's being like right there at the

1019
00:50:22,558 --> 00:50:24,638
Speaker 4: guy's side during the course of the game to take

1020
00:50:24,718 --> 00:50:27,838
Speaker 4: whatever he might say to you and and make sure

1021
00:50:27,838 --> 00:50:28,798
Speaker 4: that it gets enacted.

1022
00:50:29,838 --> 00:50:30,678
Speaker 3: But yeah, all that.

1023
00:50:30,798 --> 00:50:36,998
Speaker 4: Stuff is extremely interesting, and so yes, all of that

1024
00:50:37,118 --> 00:50:40,118
Speaker 4: stuff is definitely would be on the table for me

1025
00:50:40,238 --> 00:50:42,118
Speaker 4: to get Like with the right situation, the right people,

1026
00:50:42,158 --> 00:50:45,038
Speaker 4: the right guy, it could be it could be kind

1027
00:50:45,078 --> 00:50:45,278
Speaker 4: of fun.

1028
00:50:45,318 --> 00:50:48,358
Speaker 1: Actually, well this has been fun, Joe, because it's it's

1029
00:50:48,518 --> 00:50:51,198
Speaker 1: kind of sort of an interest of mine, and I

1030
00:50:51,318 --> 00:50:52,718
Speaker 1: think you touched on this.

1031
00:50:53,278 --> 00:50:55,598
Speaker 2: Coaches tend to get too much blame.

1032
00:50:55,478 --> 00:50:57,838
Speaker 1: Sometimes or a lot of times, and in some cases

1033
00:50:57,918 --> 00:51:00,958
Speaker 1: too much credit when things go right. But I don't

1034
00:51:00,998 --> 00:51:04,718
Speaker 1: think a lot of fans realize what Ben coaches and

1035
00:51:04,838 --> 00:51:07,318
Speaker 1: coaches in general do and and the amount of time

1036
00:51:07,398 --> 00:51:11,358
Speaker 1: they put in. So thanks for adding your experience and

1037
00:51:11,438 --> 00:51:14,038
Speaker 1: expertise to this because I think it is illuminating for

1038
00:51:14,118 --> 00:51:14,718
Speaker 1: a lot of fans.

1039
00:51:15,078 --> 00:51:15,598
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and.

1040
00:51:15,638 --> 00:51:17,718
Speaker 4: Again, I just want to cover that one more time

1041
00:51:17,718 --> 00:51:20,118
Speaker 4: because it sounded wrong. I think when I said I

1042
00:51:20,278 --> 00:51:24,078
Speaker 4: was not looking for strategy, it's just a different version

1043
00:51:24,158 --> 00:51:28,518
Speaker 4: of it. It's kind of like a sounding board. It's

1044
00:51:28,558 --> 00:51:30,718
Speaker 4: like a backboard. He's going to bounce things back at you.

1045
00:51:32,038 --> 00:51:34,278
Speaker 4: And again, it's a good conversation with the right guy.

1046
00:51:34,358 --> 00:51:37,518
Speaker 4: With the right bench coach, it's a constant conversation during

1047
00:51:37,558 --> 00:51:39,758
Speaker 4: the game. Same thing with your pitching coach. There's a

1048
00:51:39,838 --> 00:51:41,318
Speaker 4: constant conversation going.

1049
00:51:41,158 --> 00:51:41,918
Speaker 3: On during the game.

1050
00:51:42,318 --> 00:51:44,158
Speaker 4: And when I had Mike Borsella with the Cubs, it's

1051
00:51:44,158 --> 00:51:47,278
Speaker 4: a constant conversation going on about pitching during the game

1052
00:51:47,358 --> 00:51:50,718
Speaker 4: and catching, so there's always a conversation going on. And

1053
00:51:50,798 --> 00:51:52,518
Speaker 4: the big thing is to have somebody that you really

1054
00:51:52,598 --> 00:51:55,798
Speaker 4: trust and you feel strongly and good about.

1055
00:51:56,278 --> 00:51:56,998
Speaker 3: And then you get this.

1056
00:51:57,678 --> 00:51:59,558
Speaker 4: Actually it's teamwork, and it's a great little team you

1057
00:51:59,638 --> 00:52:01,638
Speaker 4: got going on. And a big part about that is

1058
00:52:01,638 --> 00:52:02,798
Speaker 4: that you're not going to miss anything.

1059
00:52:03,118 --> 00:52:07,118
Speaker 1: Well, Joe, always have some appropriate words of wisdom to

1060
00:52:07,198 --> 00:52:10,598
Speaker 1: take us out, and knowing you, you probably have something

1061
00:52:10,638 --> 00:52:14,478
Speaker 1: from a coach or especially a teacher to take us

1062
00:52:14,558 --> 00:52:17,838
Speaker 1: out this time because you seem to anticipate topics I did.

1063
00:52:19,198 --> 00:52:23,318
Speaker 4: It's so interesting. I got like two of them written

1064
00:52:23,358 --> 00:52:28,158
Speaker 4: down Victor Hugo. It was about change, and he talked

1065
00:52:28,158 --> 00:52:33,598
Speaker 4: about change your opinions, but keep to your principles, change

1066
00:52:33,638 --> 00:52:38,558
Speaker 4: your leaves, but keep your roots intact. It's so like

1067
00:52:38,758 --> 00:52:40,918
Speaker 4: on the money. Then I had Oscar Wild be yourself

1068
00:52:41,318 --> 00:52:44,518
Speaker 4: because everyone else has already taken. I mean, that's that's

1069
00:52:44,558 --> 00:52:46,878
Speaker 4: what you want with all these positions. You want you

1070
00:52:46,998 --> 00:52:48,678
Speaker 4: want that person to show up. You want to be

1071
00:52:48,718 --> 00:52:52,238
Speaker 4: able to be part of a group see see and

1072
00:52:52,358 --> 00:52:55,438
Speaker 4: understand other people's opinions and thoughts, but you always have

1073
00:52:55,558 --> 00:52:59,358
Speaker 4: to hold to your principles. Change your leaves, the color

1074
00:52:59,358 --> 00:53:02,158
Speaker 4: of your leaves, your leaves fall every fall. But you've

1075
00:53:02,198 --> 00:53:04,518
Speaker 4: got to keep the roots intact and in order to

1076
00:53:05,038 --> 00:53:08,998
Speaker 4: really be beneficial to a group. I mean, if you're

1077
00:53:09,118 --> 00:53:12,678
Speaker 4: constantly changing to the point where you're getting uprooted all

1078
00:53:12,718 --> 00:53:15,318
Speaker 4: the time and you have nothing really substantial to add

1079
00:53:15,358 --> 00:53:18,958
Speaker 4: to a conversation, that's not good either. So I really

1080
00:53:19,158 --> 00:53:21,598
Speaker 4: liked this today and everything you're talking about with the

1081
00:53:21,638 --> 00:53:22,478
Speaker 4: bench coach, I think.

1082
00:53:22,398 --> 00:53:25,718
Speaker 1: It applies so well said you came through again. I'm

1083
00:53:25,758 --> 00:53:28,838
Speaker 1: not surprised. This has been fun. Joe, appreciate it.

1084
00:53:29,078 --> 00:53:30,918
Speaker 3: Thanks Tommy, good job, Buddy. Appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.