WEBVTT - Business of Art: The Entrepreneurial Mindset & Music

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Justin Richmond here with the bonus episode of

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<v Speaker 2>Broken Record. It's a little bit of a different episode

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<v Speaker 2>than we typically air, but I think it's one that

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<v Speaker 2>the musicians that listen to the show will be excited

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<v Speaker 2>to learn from. This is one where it's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you'll get some joy out of this too, I imagine,

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<v Speaker 2>but also put on your thinking cap and think about

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<v Speaker 2>how some of this relates to you and how you

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<v Speaker 2>can use some of this. It's a conversation about finding

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<v Speaker 2>success in the music industry through non traditional means.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. It's about artists and.

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<v Speaker 2>Independent labels who found ways to forge their own paths

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<v Speaker 2>to success outside of massive record.

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<v Speaker 1>Sales, big ticket tours.

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<v Speaker 2>Thinking the Taylor Swifts here of course, right, and how

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<v Speaker 2>you can innovate within the music industry giving indie artists

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<v Speaker 2>a way to thrive. This episode is sponsored by Chase

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<v Speaker 2>for Business and I'm joined by Ben Walter, who is

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<v Speaker 2>the CEO of Chase for Business in the host of

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<v Speaker 2>his own brilliant podcast, The Unshakables. Ben, thanks for joining

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<v Speaker 2>us for this episode.

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<v Speaker 3>Justin Thanks for having me. I love all things music,

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<v Speaker 3>so this is this is an exciting moment for me,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm really glad to be with.

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<v Speaker 1>You, good man.

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<v Speaker 2>This is like a really you know, as media continues

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<v Speaker 2>to evolve, this is something that I think is front

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<v Speaker 2>of mine for everybody, and in this creative spaces, like

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<v Speaker 2>like a broken record, we don't often have these kinds

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<v Speaker 2>of conversations about business, and I think they can be

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<v Speaker 2>really insightful for creatives and for artists and musicians. So

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<v Speaker 2>thank you, I hope so so, Ben, I'm so for

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<v Speaker 2>those reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm happy to have you on to talk about this.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think most people think about.

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<v Speaker 2>The artists they love, you know, we just had like

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<v Speaker 2>a Will Smith on right, you know, even Billy Corgan

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<v Speaker 2>on right. They're more often than not a part of

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<v Speaker 2>a larger system like a major label, a major label group,

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<v Speaker 2>Universal Music, or Sony. But when you learn more about

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<v Speaker 2>the industry and smaller artists, you realize there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of other ways to make money and be successful in

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<v Speaker 2>the industry, to make money on what you're doing and

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<v Speaker 2>provide a living for yourself. People always think about the

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<v Speaker 2>art of business, right, but we don't spend as much

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<v Speaker 2>time I think thinking about the business of art, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that's a great line. Yeah, it's true,

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<v Speaker 3>but you cannot sustainably have one without the other.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely not.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a label called Excel Recordings out of England and

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<v Speaker 2>we had its founder, Richard Russell on the podcast in

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<v Speaker 2>its early days. One of the problems that Richard Russell

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<v Speaker 2>felt he was solving when he started Excel Recordings was

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<v Speaker 2>he looked at independence and he realized, well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the people running these labels, they have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>heart and soul and they really want to see their

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<v Speaker 2>artists succeed and they're identifying unique talent. But where he

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<v Speaker 2>realized major labels for succeeding was obviously having the budget,

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<v Speaker 2>being able to drive distribution and marketing, and he thought,

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<v Speaker 2>well those are you know, I guess there's a natural

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<v Speaker 2>tension between those two things, but maybe there's a way

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<v Speaker 2>to solve this. And the way he thought that if

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<v Speaker 2>I sort an indie, the way he would solve it

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<v Speaker 2>was just to sign less artists. That way he'd have

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<v Speaker 2>a bigger pot of money to distribute amongst a smaller

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<v Speaker 2>number of artists and be able to grow sustainably. Does

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<v Speaker 2>that seem like a sound first principles for starting a

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<v Speaker 2>business of that sort.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I think look in any business, when you think

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<v Speaker 3>about the top line of the business, you know the

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<v Speaker 3>revenue coming in. You always got this issue between product

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<v Speaker 3>and distribution. In the case of music, content and distribution.

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<v Speaker 3>But content is the product, So you pick your wording,

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<v Speaker 3>but you know you have stuff to get to market,

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<v Speaker 3>and then you have pipes that get it to the market.

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<v Speaker 3>And in different industries at different times, at different points,

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<v Speaker 3>different parts of that value chain have more and less

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<v Speaker 3>leverage over one another. So I think you know, in

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<v Speaker 3>the case of Excel, what they did that was smart

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<v Speaker 3>is they realized they had great product but limited leverage

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<v Speaker 3>on the distribution side. And so what they really did

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<v Speaker 3>in essence by cutting it down is said, I am

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<v Speaker 3>willing to take a bet on my product, and by

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<v Speaker 3>limiting the product, I will maximize the number of resources

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<v Speaker 3>I can throw my real challenge, which is distribution. And

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<v Speaker 3>so that's a really smart way in their case. Now

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<v Speaker 3>they were betting big, right, because if the talent wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>as good as they thought, they wouldn't be where they

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<v Speaker 3>are today because they basically went all in on product.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Now you can do that when you're just starting out

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<v Speaker 3>because you have very little to lose.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's funny, I mean, to your point, when

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<v Speaker 2>you're that small and just starting out, you don't have

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<v Speaker 2>a ton to lose, but it's still risky. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>adjusted for adjusted for the amount of money you're kind

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<v Speaker 2>of making, and that you know, it's that risk can

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<v Speaker 2>feel big.

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<v Speaker 1>And they really were niche.

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<v Speaker 2>To start, like they were a rave and dance label

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<v Speaker 2>right as that stuff was starting to kind of come

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<v Speaker 2>out of clubs and maybe just touch the mainstream a bit.

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<v Speaker 2>But one of their early artists was the group Prodigy,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, and then the label starts in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty nine and by nineteen ninety four they have a

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the Prodigy, you have a number one album

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<v Speaker 2>in the UK. By nineteen ninety seven they have a

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<v Speaker 2>number one album in the UK and the US, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And so that pot of money I think starts to

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<v Speaker 2>get bigger at the label and then they are What

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<v Speaker 2>they did was reinvest back again, same principle, thinking let's

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<v Speaker 2>take the money we have invested into a small number

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<v Speaker 2>of artists. They just took that money, reinvested into the

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<v Speaker 2>artists and eventually they grow that to you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>until they're releasing Adell's album twenty one and Vampire Weekend

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<v Speaker 2>Records and White Stripes Records, and Radiohead and Tyler the Creator,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like artists who are really shaping modern culture.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh the White Stripes. Yes. Well, look, I think a

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<v Speaker 3>few things. One is it's always good to know where

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<v Speaker 3>you think you have an unfair advantage. And by unfair

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<v Speaker 3>I don't mean a monopoly. I mean in this case,

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<v Speaker 3>their unfair advantage is they could pick talent better. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>that was like clearly they had an eye for it

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<v Speaker 3>that the market didn't have because they could bet on

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<v Speaker 3>a few artists who were better. But that is a

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<v Speaker 3>concentrated risk. And so what I tell many new business

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<v Speaker 3>owners is it's easy to forget this, but ultimately, managing

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<v Speaker 3>a business is primarily about managing risk, even when you're

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<v Speaker 3>in the growth phase. It's not like only big companies

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<v Speaker 3>that have something to lose have risk, because even small companies,

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<v Speaker 3>as you said, starting out, you know, if they only

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<v Speaker 3>got so much money in the bank, they have risk too,

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<v Speaker 3>And so I encourage them to think of a triangle.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, whatever you're doing doesn't matter I'm promoting a

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<v Speaker 3>new artist or I'm doubling down on my existing artist,

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<v Speaker 3>or I'm launching a new label, or I'm promoting a

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<v Speaker 3>new album. Whatever you're doing, you're trying to balance a

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<v Speaker 3>three legged stool, because everything you do has some level

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<v Speaker 3>of financial risk, some level of brand and reputational risk,

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<v Speaker 3>and some level of operational risk. Right, Because even you

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<v Speaker 3>might say, well, there's financial risk if I take this

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<v Speaker 3>bet and it goes bad, but there might be operational

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<v Speaker 3>risk if I take the bet and it goes really

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<v Speaker 3>well and I don't have the resources to fulfill on

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<v Speaker 3>what I just sold, or both of those things go

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<v Speaker 3>really well, but then you know the way it's received

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<v Speaker 3>taints my brand in a way that I'm on come.

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<v Speaker 3>You're always balancing sort of those three legs of the

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<v Speaker 3>stool and trying to manage those. So that's one is

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<v Speaker 3>to really think of when you're running a business. You're

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<v Speaker 3>taking bets, and you've got to manage the risk around

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<v Speaker 3>all of those things. And I would say the second

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<v Speaker 3>one is know when you're playing to win versus playing

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<v Speaker 3>not to lose. You know, as a small brand, they

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<v Speaker 3>were playing to win, right, they were going to bet

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<v Speaker 3>on a few artists. You know, they were betting the farm,

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<v Speaker 3>and they were playing to win when they got bigger.

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<v Speaker 3>My guess is now often they don't put quite as

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<v Speaker 3>many eggs in one basket because there's a few places

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<v Speaker 3>where they think they can bet big and play to win,

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<v Speaker 3>and some other places they'll take a smaller bet not

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<v Speaker 3>to lose. I don't know their strategies per se, but

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<v Speaker 3>as companies get bigger, they start to think in those terms.

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<v Speaker 3>Because you're making resource trade offs and investment tradeoffs all

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<v Speaker 3>the time.

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<v Speaker 2>That's interesting, so you start to think of the certain

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<v Speaker 2>big bets as possibly subsidizing the riskier bets.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right, because you because one of the obligations you

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<v Speaker 3>always have, you have to make money today and tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 3>You can't. You can't just say well, I'll bet it

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<v Speaker 3>all for tomorrow, because then you don't eat dinner. And

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<v Speaker 3>you can't just you know, take all the profits today

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<v Speaker 3>because then there'll be nothing paying you a dividend in

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<v Speaker 3>the future. So you owe it to your business, your investors,

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<v Speaker 3>and yourself to make money for today and for tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 2>Speaking of unfair advantage, this next one I want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about beats by Dre, which of course is started

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<v Speaker 2>by Jimmy Ivan and doctor Dre. I mean, the unique

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<v Speaker 2>advantage is the unfair advantage here is fairly obviously.

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<v Speaker 1>There are two guys who.

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<v Speaker 3>He's doctor Drey, He's doctor Dre.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, it's like, you know, in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>sound and audio quality and production and Jimmy Ivy and

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<v Speaker 2>the same, you know, working on John Lennon records and

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<v Speaker 2>the Tom Petty records and then starting Innerscope. It's like,

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<v Speaker 2>these are two guys that know music, they know quality sound,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and they start in two thousand and six,

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<v Speaker 2>so you you know, even though they're d eightying around

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and four, two thousand and five, not too

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<v Speaker 2>long after Napster's kind of up. Napster up ends and

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<v Speaker 2>peer to peer file sharing and iTunes kinds of kind.

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<v Speaker 3>Of secord business overnight.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there it.

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<v Speaker 2>Goes, right, And so Jimmy and Drey start to think, well,

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<v Speaker 2>what are ways other ways we can make money still

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<v Speaker 2>in music, and they realize, well, not only are people

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<v Speaker 2>stealing music, but like the quality of the music they're

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<v Speaker 2>stealing is terrible. We should give them headphones so they

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<v Speaker 2>can actually hear what you're playing is terrible, and start

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<v Speaker 2>to train train the audience to recognize good quality and

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<v Speaker 2>so they start beats by Dre.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll tell you what's really interesting about that, justin look,

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<v Speaker 3>it's not quite a complete analogy, because no one's worried

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<v Speaker 3>about either of those two guys. Next meal, however, we

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<v Speaker 3>see typically in economic downturns, when there's a recession, new

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<v Speaker 3>business formation goes up, not down. It's countercyclical. Why because

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<v Speaker 3>people lose their jobs. And when they lose their jobs,

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<v Speaker 3>they say, hmm, I can't seem to find a job

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<v Speaker 3>I want. I'm going to go start a business and

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<v Speaker 3>I'm going to do that idea that I always came

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<v Speaker 3>up with, or I'm gonna I'm a going to take

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<v Speaker 3>the plunge and see what I can do. And so

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<v Speaker 3>a huge number of the entrepreneurs that we see on

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<v Speaker 3>our show In My Business are people who you know,

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<v Speaker 3>something went wrong, something went in a way they didn't expect,

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<v Speaker 3>and the next thing they know, they're starting a business.

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<v Speaker 3>That is not uncommon.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think this is a question a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people find themselves running into, and especially artists too, is

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of needing to take on a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>roles or jobs or gigs in order to make you

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<v Speaker 2>know the income necessary to satisfy your lifestyle. Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>when you're talking to small business owners, how do you

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<v Speaker 2>help them navigate? Well, you know, yes, you can take

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<v Speaker 2>these ten things and all ten things will let you

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<v Speaker 2>x amount.

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<v Speaker 1>But maybe that's not a good thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Ultimately, you know, how do you know where to really

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<v Speaker 2>reinvest your time?

0:11:01.716 --> 0:11:03.596
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I would say a few things. One is you

0:11:03.636 --> 0:11:06.756
<v Speaker 3>have to take the first do no harm view, which

0:11:06.796 --> 0:11:08.796
<v Speaker 3>is you know, and if I take that to a

0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:11.356
<v Speaker 3>music artist, you know, if doing anything else is going

0:11:11.436 --> 0:11:13.476
<v Speaker 3>to is going to degrade the quality of your music,

0:11:13.516 --> 0:11:16.996
<v Speaker 3>your music, whether you're a singer songwriter, you know, you

0:11:17.036 --> 0:11:19.756
<v Speaker 3>write your own material or you're just a performer of

0:11:19.796 --> 0:11:22.396
<v Speaker 3>other people's material. Either way, if it's going to take

0:11:22.436 --> 0:11:25.356
<v Speaker 3>away from that, then you're you're eroding your core activity

0:11:25.396 --> 0:11:29.916
<v Speaker 3>for something else. And you better have awful conviction, an

0:11:29.916 --> 0:11:31.556
<v Speaker 3>awful lot of conviction. And what that other thing is

0:11:31.556 --> 0:11:33.676
<v Speaker 3>if you're going to undermine that, you know, So imagine

0:11:33.836 --> 0:11:36.196
<v Speaker 3>you know, if you're a sports star and you start

0:11:36.196 --> 0:11:39.116
<v Speaker 3>a brand, a clothing brand, and in the process of

0:11:39.156 --> 0:11:43.956
<v Speaker 3>focusing on that clothing brand, you become a much worse athlete.

0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:46.196
<v Speaker 3>That's probably going to have not just an impact on

0:11:46.236 --> 0:11:48.076
<v Speaker 3>your athletic career. It's going to have an impact on

0:11:48.116 --> 0:11:51.076
<v Speaker 3>your brand. So you might have just released a great

0:11:51.076 --> 0:11:53.196
<v Speaker 3>album and you think, you know what, I can trade

0:11:53.196 --> 0:11:54.876
<v Speaker 3>on this album for a year, and I've got more

0:11:54.876 --> 0:11:56.836
<v Speaker 3>content in the waiting, and so I can go focus

0:11:56.836 --> 0:11:59.276
<v Speaker 3>on some other things because I feel good about where

0:11:59.276 --> 0:12:00.756
<v Speaker 3>the music is for a period of time, and I

0:12:00.916 --> 0:12:02.596
<v Speaker 3>commit to coming back to it in this time so

0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:04.116
<v Speaker 3>that I don't let an atrophy. You know, you can

0:12:04.116 --> 0:12:06.876
<v Speaker 3>make decisions like that, but ultimately, if you're going to

0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:09.756
<v Speaker 3>take you know you you are going to be distracted

0:12:09.836 --> 0:12:11.556
<v Speaker 3>no matter what you do, and so you really need

0:12:11.596 --> 0:12:14.676
<v Speaker 3>to think about, of all the activities I have, which

0:12:14.676 --> 0:12:17.196
<v Speaker 3>one is gonna protect my interests and which one's going

0:12:17.236 --> 0:12:18.836
<v Speaker 3>to grow my interest and how can I split my

0:12:18.876 --> 0:12:19.916
<v Speaker 3>time between those things.

0:12:21.236 --> 0:12:23.236
<v Speaker 1>That's that's sage advice. That's sage advice.

0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:25.556
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's easier. Look, it's easier said than done.

0:12:25.556 --> 0:12:26.756
<v Speaker 3>I wish, I wish I could tell you there's a

0:12:26.756 --> 0:12:29.796
<v Speaker 3>mathematical formula for it. There's not. I'm afraid even a

0:12:29.796 --> 0:12:31.596
<v Speaker 3>banker will tell you. Judgment wins the day.

0:12:32.236 --> 0:12:33.476
<v Speaker 1>You know, judgment wins the day.

0:12:33.636 --> 0:12:35.796
<v Speaker 2>I mean, probably everyone should trust their judgment but artists

0:12:35.796 --> 0:12:38.316
<v Speaker 2>are people who are who work on their judgment every day.

0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:40.116
<v Speaker 2>That's what they're doing, you know, They're creating things and

0:12:40.196 --> 0:12:43.756
<v Speaker 2>trusting their gut. And so hopefully we can, you know,

0:12:43.916 --> 0:12:46.316
<v Speaker 2>those of us who don't have business degrees, we can

0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:48.116
<v Speaker 2>still figure out how to make how to make things

0:12:48.156 --> 0:12:48.716
<v Speaker 2>work for us.

0:12:48.956 --> 0:12:50.556
<v Speaker 3>I agree with you justin no one ever made a

0:12:50.556 --> 0:12:53.196
<v Speaker 3>great piece of music by you know, just repeating someone

0:12:53.196 --> 0:12:55.196
<v Speaker 3>else's music. People make a great piece of music because

0:12:55.196 --> 0:12:56.676
<v Speaker 3>they have the guts to do something original.

0:12:57.236 --> 0:12:59.916
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, well, Ben, thank you so much.

0:12:59.996 --> 0:13:02.836
<v Speaker 2>This is you know again, I don't spend a lot

0:13:02.916 --> 0:13:06.676
<v Speaker 2>of time thinking about the business of music, but it's

0:13:06.716 --> 0:13:09.316
<v Speaker 2>it's really instructive, you know. I mean, frankly, I'm even

0:13:09.356 --> 0:13:10.956
<v Speaker 2>thought I spent a ton of time thinking about it.

0:13:10.996 --> 0:13:12.556
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing it every day, you know, and so it's

0:13:12.676 --> 0:13:16.556
<v Speaker 2>nice to actually spend some time prioritizing the business side

0:13:16.556 --> 0:13:16.916
<v Speaker 2>of things.

0:13:17.276 --> 0:13:19.276
<v Speaker 3>Well, look, I appreciate you having me on. I think,

0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:21.116
<v Speaker 3>you know, I don't know a single person who doesn't

0:13:21.156 --> 0:13:24.876
<v Speaker 3>love music, and music makes our lives richer, and music

0:13:24.916 --> 0:13:27.956
<v Speaker 3>can't thrive without a successful business model underlying it. We

0:13:28.036 --> 0:13:31.836
<v Speaker 3>need sustainable business models to help great artists make great music,

0:13:31.916 --> 0:13:35.276
<v Speaker 3>so the more we can encourage and support artists having

0:13:35.476 --> 0:13:37.756
<v Speaker 3>really sustainable, good business models, the more we all get

0:13:37.756 --> 0:13:39.156
<v Speaker 3>to enjoy the richness of that music.

0:13:39.556 --> 0:13:41.916
<v Speaker 2>Well, Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, thanks so

0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:42.756
<v Speaker 2>much for doing this.

0:13:43.316 --> 0:13:44.836
<v Speaker 1>I really really appreciate.

0:13:44.436 --> 0:13:46.156
<v Speaker 3>You justin this is a lot of fun. Thanks a

0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:46.356
<v Speaker 3>lot