WEBVTT - TPC Harding Park and the ”Mega Muni” Model 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.920 And when I find my ball in a bright egg 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.080 Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida egggg Frida egg 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:11.920 bride egg. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:40.200 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:37.600 Garrett. How are you? 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.720 I'm doing pretty well, Andy, How are you? I? 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.400 You know, always Monday after the after a major is 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.680 like a weird day. I feel like it's like a 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.960 you're just kind of tired of working all weekend, so 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.200 it's a it's just a strange, uh, strange day. And 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.920 then you're thinking about all the stuff, and sometimes you 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.360 get a little bit more perspective the longer you wait 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.440 from that from a major championship. But what a weekend 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.080 of golf, huh. 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.680 Yeah, amazing weekend of golf. There was a lot of 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.679 golf to watch, for sure, even not at the PGA Championship. 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.440 You know, there's some interesting tournaments going on outside of it. 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.240 So I definitely got a load of it. And I 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.240 feel you on that. You know, the Monday after a 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.600 major there's a little bit of a letdown, but you 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:25.960 still have some of that buzz going from the excitement 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.040 of the tournament, and this was definitely an exciting tournament. Yeah. 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.520 I mean just I was just returning some stuff at 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.559 the store at a couple of stores with my wife, 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.040 and I was, you know, this is when I'm waiting, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:43.920 I'm thinking about Tony f now, and I looked it 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.319 up and here he's finished. He's only played sixteen majors. 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.760 He's finished in the top ten seven times. 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.440 It's kind of nuts, I know. Well, yeah, no, completely, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.480 you know, it gives legitimacy to the idea that there's 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.320 actually a curse on him. I mean, the guy plays 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.840 so well so often and he just doesn't have any wins. 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.040 I mean, it's it's amazing. But what's funny to me 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.600 about that story is the fact that you were on 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:10.680 an errand with your wife and you were thinking about 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:15.480 Tony Finow, which is which is certainly exactly where where 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.160 my head is at the Monday after a major championship. 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:22.200 You know, I can't have a normal human conversation with anybody. 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:23.840 So it's good that we're going to get all our 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:24.960 takes out there right now. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.440 I feel like, yeah, yeah, it's a when doing all 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:34.200 those shotguns start spotlights over the quarantine with with all 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:38.880 those historic players, like forty top ten rate in a 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.600 in the prime of your career and majors, is like 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.480 really unbelievable. And that's essentially what Fenale's at right now. 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.720 Yeah. No, he's such a great player. He does so 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.920 many things. Well, I'd love to figure out what it 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:56.959 is that's holding him back. I mean, obviously he's not 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:00.919 a great putter, but but you know, I mean, one 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:02.840 of these weeks he's got to put it together. It's 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:03.560 just got to happen. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:05.640 He made putts yesterday too. 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.040 I know he was he was closing out those like 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.959 five six footers down the stretch. Well, he shot sixty six. 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.000 He did his job. It's just it's kind of like 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.600 you and Brendan talked about on the Shotguns start. You know, 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.640 Morikawa jumped out and got it, which is why it 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.040 was so satisfying. But it was also a bummer for 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.320 guys like Bryson and Tony Feenow who played well but 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:26.960 just you know, not well enough. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:28.960 I know, for a while it looked like we were 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:31.040 getting get a seven man playoff. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.280 That would have been that would have been interesting. Yeah, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:36.960 it would have been interesting to see how they would 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:37.680 have pulled that off. 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.000 What was your what were your thoughts on the golf course. 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:45.640 Obviously you you covered the golf course extensively between the 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.160 article you wrote and as well as the docupied that 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.640 is the podcast before this Golf in the City Harding Park. 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.040 How did you what'd you think of the first major 0:03:58.160 --> 0:03:59.560 championship at Harding Park. 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:02.800 Well, I thought it was a great success. I mean 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.960 it certainly the tournament justified all of the things that 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.360 Harding Park's supporters say about it, that it's a great 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.400 championship venue, it's challenging, it stands up to the best 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.719 players in the world, and it tends to create drama. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.520 It's done that in the San Francisco City Championships, it 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.360 did that in the Lucky International in the sixties, It's 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.800 done that in the tournaments that it's held this century. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.120 And so all of those advocates of Harding Park, like 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.440 bo Lynx, who essentially narrated the story for me on 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.360 that Friday Stories episode, their perspective on the course, I 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.200 think was found a lot of justification this week. I 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.880 think we also saw some of the things about Harding 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:49.560 Park that are less than great. On TV, especially when 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.800 you're looking at one hole against another, it's sometimes sort 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:56.680 of hard to keep track of where you are unless 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.160 you're along one of those lake holes. And you know 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.920 that the bunkers the greens just don't introduce a whole 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:05.960 lot of a whole lot of interest to the play. 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.839 But you know what, it came down to the wire. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.400 There were a couple of holes that allowed more Kawa 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.200 to show what he does best, that allowed him to 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.760 differentiate himself, and so the course did its draw job. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:25.400 It was dramatic, and it felt good that this championship 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.520 took place at a at a true municipal course of 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.640 course that's been a true UNI for ever since it 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:32.839 opened ninety five years ago. 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.320 I thought one of the things, obviously we're in such 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.440 weird times and the circumstances didn't allow fans, but I 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:45.240 thought one of the best aspects of the golf course 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:49.800 is the idea. I think golf in the city. You know, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:54.000 major championship golf within the city is so neat. It's 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.120 not forty minutes away, it's not a train rider away, 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.520 and it brings such an atmosphere. We got it a 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.120 little bit even with just the people watching from the 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.320 street on thirteen t which was really neat. But that 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.640 idea of golf in the city, a municipal course and 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:15.200 fans is such a such a cool ingredient with it. 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.480 And obviously we won't see Harding Park in the PGA 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.240 Roda for however long, you know that they're booked out 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:29.560 for over a decade and the but the that's the thing, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.839 the one thing that I thought got robbed of the 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.480 championship And you know, when when we weren't even sure 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.680 if we were going to have major championship golf when 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.599 they started planning it, I thought it would make a 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.680 lot of sense to move this one and bring Harding 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.200 Park back with fans because I think that was the 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:51.080 one thing that really if that's the X factor of 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:52.320 that venue. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.360 Right, Oh, completely, And if you look at the video 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.880 that's available actually on YouTube of the two thousand and 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.640 five American Express Championship, the first big event that was 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.240 held at Harding Park post renovation, the duel between Tiger 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.880 Woods and John Daly. The atmosphere for that, for you know, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.440 a WGC was unbelievable. You know, the crowd was just 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.680 so in it and it was so fun to see 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.400 that course crowded and allowed like that, and that would 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.360 have definitely been part of this championship. I think that 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.280 that was definitely missing, and so yeah, I mean it's 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.320 a bummer, but you know, we were all still watching 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.400 at home. There was plenty of tension without the crowd. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.040 I kind of wonder though, I mean, this might be 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.440 a bad take, but I kind of wonder like if 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.320 the lack of a crowd made things even more it 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.640 made this even more of an opportunity for somebody like 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.360 Colin Morikawa. I think it would have just felt different 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.840 to him down the stretch if there had been thousands 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.840 of people crowded around found him, you know, yelling their 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:03.280 lungs at Yeah. 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:09.360 That's such an interesting thing to debate because even in 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.760 lead up questions to the tournament, there were some responses. 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.640 I can't remember exactly who press conference I was watching. 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:19.920 It was one of the big players. It might have 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.840 been even Rory God, I can't remember who it was, 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.720 but they were talking about how they were struggling to 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:33.480 really without the energy of the crowd like in regular events, 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:38.640 but then being a major, they really knew it was that. 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:44.080 And the other question is, I mean, was Colin Morikawa 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:49.760 Scheffler Wolf at more of an advantage because they're basically 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.520 a year removed from playing all their events just like 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.280 this one was played with no fans, just basically family 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.320 and officials and agents at college events. You know, that's 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.800 basically the a big name player is going to have 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.320 twenty agents following him around in equipment, guys following him 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.800 around to a college event, and that's about it. And that's 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.760 essentially what we see at these New Tour New Tour 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.120 events without fans is you know, big name players have 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.400 more people following them, but it's just officials and you know, 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.800 different coherts of the tour. PGA Championship. 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.240 Yeah, yeah, and we heard about it plenty on the telecast. Obviously, 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.240 Moricow was familiar with the course, but in a very 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.440 real sense, this had to feel specifically familiar to him. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.240 You know, he's he's played events that that probably looked 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:43.960 quite a bit like this in very recent history. You know, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.880 all that added up to an opportunity. But you know 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.640 that's that's not to take anything away from how impressive 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.199 what he did down the stretch was. It's really one 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.840 of the most unbelievable finishes from a player in a 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.240 major that I can remember. I mean, who's gone out 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.480 and grabbed it like that recently Brooks did at Aaron Hills. 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.760 Yeah, he did it at Aaron Hills. I'm trying to 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.840 think Shinnacock, he kind of did. I mean, there are 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:16.880 a lot of guys fell apart there. Yeah, Tiger, Tiger. 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:18.680 Everybody fell apart around Tiger. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:19.440 Right. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.560 It's it's amazing when you think back because everything's like 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:30.600 all the recent memories almost Brooks, It's like Brooks Brooks there, Gary, 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.120 Gary Woodland. I will say he he kind of did that. 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:36.000 He was good. 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.800 He played so good on Sunday. 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.560 That shot, that shot on seventeen, that the chip. 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:46.199 Or the shot on fourteen getting home there, that and 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.840 the way he started, the way he answered Brooks is 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.559 charged in that first six holes. That was Those first 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:59.280 seven holes of that tournament were electric. But yeah, I 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:03.360 would I think, I mean what an iconic finish, And 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.800 I think that was what had to happen, was like 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:11.360 just pure excellent play. And who knows if you play 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.520 eighteen more holes, like some tournaments we see like if 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.480 we just kept going, if we keep playing three more days, 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.520 Hendrix stens into probably winning at Troon if that tournament 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.360 turns into a ninety hole tournament or a one hundred 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.760 and eight hole tournament. This tournament, I have no clue 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:29.880 who'd win if it was one hundred and eight holes, 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.640 you know, like that's the I think one of the 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.600 things with it is that we would if it if 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.120 it picked back up today and we're playing Monday, a 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.200 fifth round, it's still anybody's tournament. 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.400 M Yeah, it was. It was an unbelievable level of golf. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.760 Uh yeah, people really didn't didn't fall apart. It was 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.920 it was just uh and that and that might be 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:55.120 more fuel for the uh for the notion that fans 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.000 do create a little bit more pressure at majors. It 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.920 gives it that atmosphere. It reminds you of what the 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.800 stakes are on a regular basis, And so when you've 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.400 got a more or less empty course, you know you're 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.960 you're a little more able to lock in. And there 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.760 were just a whole lot of guys who were locked 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:15.080 in on Sunday at at Harding Park, and and I 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.280 think it was fun to watch, but I'm not sure 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.160 that i'd want it every major. I think when we 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.240 see three or four more like this, we're going to 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:22.640 start to yearn for the fans back. 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.800 Yeah, what what do you think about the setup? 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.520 So, you know it was it was PGA Championship through 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.440 and through. I real listened to your podcast with Kerry 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.320 Haig this morning and and you know, he was very 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.599 circumspect and professional in that in that podcast. But I 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.760 you know, I I saw, you know, his sort of 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.840 personality coming through in the setups. And this is what 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.400 he's done for a number of PGA Championships in a row, 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:57.560 where basically it's a pretty conservative setup and you know 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.640 it's it's plenty challenging, but there's no nothing that the 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.080 pros are going to object to. But then there are 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.840 a couple of holes here and there where there's some 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:13.000 creativity introduced to the setup. So you had the sixteenth hole, 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:18.200 which I think between the first day, second day, third day, 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.600 fourth day, there were some really really smart changes made 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.200 to that hole to make it different and it influenced 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.800 play in exactly the ways that I would imagine were intended. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.000 So they used both the championship tee and what's normally 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.160 the forward tee at Harding Park, which is about two 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.880 hundred and eighty to two hundred ninety yards and then 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.800 they used a bunch of different pin positions on that green, 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.880 which has these kind of three different lobes in a 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.959 middle section. They put the pins on all of those edges, 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.720 and they moved the te's backward and forward, and the 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.880 dynamics from day to day were really interesting, really cool, 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.920 and it paid off in a spectacular shot from Colin 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.200 or Kawa down the stretch. The defining shot of the 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:08.040 tournament was enabled by that smart, varied setup. And so 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.120 I think that that's the mo of the PGA Championship 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.840 Championship right now that we're seeing. We're not seeing big 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.080 mistakes on the setup, and the reason for that is 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:23.240 that it's pretty tentative for the most part. But there 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.400 are certain places on the course where there are some 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.080 smart changes made to the whole, some variety in the 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.840 playing dynamics from day to day, and I thought it 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.280 really worked this time. Now that said, I can't say that, 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.920 you know, watching just a player who was a few 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.280 shots off the lead, not a few shots off the lead, 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.280 say a player who was a number of shots off 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.520 the lead Sunday morning. Just watching that player play this 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.080 course shot by shot, I'm not sure that that would 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:02.600 be that interesting, Whereas if this were Melbourne, that would 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.240 be fascinating. Roll Melbourne as it was set up at 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.520 the at the President's Cup, you'd want to watch any 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:13.560 player in any situation play that course shot for shot. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.160 I don't think you could say the same about Harding 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.800 Park as it was set up for this tournament. You know, 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.280 I think the players had to rise above and provide 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.800 the drama on their own. I don't think the course 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.960 was necessarily giving us anything that was super fascinating in 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:31.440 and of itself, if you know what I mean. 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.760 Yeah, I feel like the only holes that created drama 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.520 were the short par fours seven and sixteen. I felt 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.120 like eight, nine, ten was a great stretch of golf 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.200 I did enjoy, and Will Knights tweeted this from the 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.920 Frida Egg account. But the pacing of the golf course, now, 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.800 I'm not talking about the design characteristics of the greens 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.920 or bunkers, but just the way the rhythm of the 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.960 difficult verse is gettible holes. I thought, you know, you 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.360 have that first seven holes where you felt like you 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.000 really had to take advantage of those holes because eight 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.920 and nine were, you know, pretty much playing at if 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.480 you played those in eight, you know, a bogie and 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.040 a par you were, you were playing, you were, you 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.080 weren't going to lose ground, and then you had ten, 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.000 you could get one, and then all of a sudden 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.680 you have another tough stretch of golf for a few holes, 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.880 and then you got a couple of gettable holes coming 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.880 down the stretch, and then eighteen's another tough hole. I 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.080 thought I liked the way the rhythm of the round 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.080 where you had these periods of you know, you got 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:38.760 to get this done. And I think if you look 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.480 back on Dustin Johnson's round, him not making a birdie 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.840 grant he parted eight nine, he played those great, but 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.920 not getting one at ten from a great drive was 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.560 really the nail in his kind of coffin and one 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.040 that you look back on, and every every guy in 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:01.680 that in that top eight players this event look back 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.720 on a couple of things, and I think that that 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.240 was a cool The rhythm of an aspect of it 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.960 was really neat, and I liked that the short part fours, 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.520 it weren't like a four gone conclusion. What was going 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.679 to happen? You know what somebody was going to do 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.320 off the tee, which was which was neat and something 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.880 we don't see when the tour goes to the players 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.080 at the twelfth hole, like where that's everybody's going for it. 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.240 Yeah, Morikawa made a legitimate in the moment choice on 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.080 the sixteenth tee in the fourth round of the tournament. 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.399 You know, he said to the press afterwards that he 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.600 at the beginning of the tournament he thought he was 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.919 going to be laying up on that hole, but you know, 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.959 he called an audible on the tee and he and 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.560 he pulled the driver out. You just don't hear that 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.840 that often from pros. That I deviated from what I 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.040 thought my plan was going to be, and that speaks 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.680 to a really good setup for that hole. And I 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.320 think that hole specifically does I mean it, you know, 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:03.800 the design of it and the setup of it just 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.600 worked really really well here. Yeah. I mean so you're 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:09.639 mainly though, talking about the pacing of the round, the 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.080 mixture of easy and hard holes. I think you do 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.200 have to work it both ways at this golf course, 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.560 right that there's there's a you know, a balance. 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.879 Of but what I mean limited amount of working. You know, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.040 nobody really works it outside of Bobba. 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.080 These days, what what qualifies as working the ball has 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.719 definitely changed. But when we see even a little bit 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.680 of curve, we kind of get excited. And and then 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.280 the you know, the routing of the course we talked 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.720 about on the on the Story podcast that we did. 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.760 Bo Links talked about it. Ron Kreutzchek talked about it. 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.120 It starts on the inside of the property, and then 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.080 when you get to that thirteenth hole, the green sits 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.160 against Lake merced and then you know that you're really 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.639 heading down the stretch right and and and that makes 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:01.520 it a really fun, dramatic turn make golf moment where 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.680 everything starts to tighten up right as you get out 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.720 to Lake Mercaid, and it just feels right. It's it's exciting, 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.080 and so, you know, I think that people are looking 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.120 for simplistic takes on golf courses. Either this golf course 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.840 represents everything that's bad about architecture or everything that's good 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.200 about architecture. But I don't think that's the right way 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.000 to go with Harding Park. I think there's a lot 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.080 of things that the course does brilliantly and a lot 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.480 of things that could be much better about the course. 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.360 Just because this was a great championship doesn't mean that 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:41.280 the course couldn't be better. And just because there are 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.960 some critiques that we have of the greens and the 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:48.560 bunkers and various other aspects of the course and the setup, 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:54.880 doesn't mean that, you know, a great tournament can't occur here. Yeah. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.000 I think that's the thing, is that we live in 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.359 this world of where there's only one right now thing. 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:04.480 And I always keep going back to the idea that two, 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.520 even three, even four things can be true about the 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.200 same thing. Like you know, the TPC Harding Park had 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:18.320 a great championship on it, TPC Harding Park isn't necessarily 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:23.800 the greatest championship golf course. And I you know, I 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.159 think TPC Herding Park will be as rumored will be 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.640 a great year in year out tour stop. I think 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.280 that's it's going to be a really cool atmosphere. And 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.119 I think I like the trend that we're starting to 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.280 see with more and more events going into cities, and 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.080 I think it will draw a great field because one 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.679 of you know, obviously Riviera is a great golf course 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.399 and it always gets a great field. But one of 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:52.040 the reasons it gets a great field for with superstar players. 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.200 Is the idea like, hey, we got to go spend 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.520 a week in LA like that, and going and spending 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.879 a week in San Francisco is a is appealing to 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.639 PGA Tour players versus going to spend it in you know, 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:09.960 suburbs of x YZ city. Being able to stay in 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.920 the city, especially as this tour gets younger and younger, 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.360 is going to be an appeal. And I think that's 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.240 one of the things that we you know, another municipal 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.639 golf course that's hosting a regular PGA Tour event is 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.000 Memorial Park in the city, you know, in Houston, So 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:30.640 that should be another neat tournament with its own unique atmosphere. 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.639 Yeah, we should briefly say a little bit about what 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.240 you're referring to. So there's going to be it sounds 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:40.760 like an annual tournament at Harding Park in the fall, 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.280 hosted by Steph Curry. And I talked a little bit 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.399 to ron Kreutzchech about this, but it didn't make the 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:51.720 story podcast. But it sounds like it's basically a done deal. 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.399 Steph Curry is involved, and it will be an event, 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:56.480 and there are a couple of things that are really 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.160 cool about that. One is that fall is the time 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.720 to be in San francs Cisco. Right right now is 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:10.119 not the time to be in San Francisco, though he 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:14.600 said something about the coldest winter I ever spent is 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:19.639 a summer in San Francisco. Except so, I wrote a 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.639 dissertation chapter on Mark Twain about his time in the 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:27.000 West Coast, and I found absolutely no evidence that he 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.080 said anything of the sort. This is not something that 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:32.120 Mark Twain said. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:34.159 Very complectic, you know. 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:40.600 But in any case, it's in the fall. San Francisco 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.240 is great. You know, it's sunny, it's like seventy degrees. 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:48.040 It'll be beautiful. And because the tournament is going to 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:50.280 have the involvement of Steph Curry, I think that'll give 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:52.440 it a little bit of extra juice and it'll make 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:59.639 it feel a little more distinct from the normal fall 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.080 of events, right which which do I think kind of 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:06.120 blur together and need something to make them stand stand out. 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.320 I really believe that that Steph Curry is one of 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.359 the few people who is involved in the golf world 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.600 who can make an event feel bigger than events in 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:17.600 the fall normally feel. 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.080 I I agree. I think I believe the plan is 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.200 to keep safe way too. So you know, when when 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.520 players are laying out what they're going to do, all 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.119 of a sudden, a week in Napa, a week in 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.440 San Francisco, that is pretty appealing. I mean, right now 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:34.840 I'm thinking about it, and I don't cover I don't 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:37.960 go to and cover many tour events, but now I'm like, 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.920 you know what, it's pretty good. Two weeks there. 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:45.440 Yeah, Napa is amazing, awesome. 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:48.280 It is such a great golf city, you know, it's 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.880 it's a unique and cool golf city. As you cover, 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:56.040 you know, pretty thoroughly in your podcast with all the 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.600 other you know, the dedication to municipal golf, in public golf, 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:03.160 and then overall golf in the city. There's so many 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:06.200 golf courses there and so many golfers in San Francisco. 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.520 It's a rich golf culture. I think it's a unique 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:18.240 golf culture. You know. San Francisco has long been a 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:22.840 city where it can be difficult to be a blue 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:26.720 collar person, and it's become more and more difficult recently. 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:30.560 But I think golf, and this is surprising for a 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:34.680 lot of people to hear, has for many decades been 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:39.159 an outlet for blue collar people in San Francisco. Harding 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:41.640 Park has been a place where, you know, the Plumbers 0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:45.880 Union holds its annual tournament. And so the people who 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:50.160 play golf in San Francisco tend not to be kind 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:52.840 of your stereotype of golf, and that gives the courses 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:54.879 a distinctive feel. I don't know if you've been to 0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:59.879 Glenn Eagles, but that's such a fun place to just 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:01.960 b I mean, it's a fun golf course, nine hole 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:06.720 golf course in McLaren Park, and the hang in the 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:09.640 clubhouse at the bar is one of the most fun 0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:13.240 things that I think you can do in golf. And so, 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:15.240 you know, the golf. 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:18.719 Course basically it's basically a dive bar at a ninehole course. 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:21.040 It's great. I mean, it's and it's got a great 0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:24.920 view too, Like it's got this amazing view and you're 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:27.760 sitting there and people are telling stories and it's just 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:31.879 a wonderful place. And so I think that's part of 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:34.920 what's really valuable about San Francisco golf and what needs 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:39.000 to be preserved and defended in that city is a 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:43.160 certain kind of rough and tumble culture to the golf courses. 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:46.879 These are really welcoming places. These are places where you 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:51.679 feel comfortable. Even after Harding Park got renovated and turned 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.200 into this sort of higher class of PGA tour course, 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:01.720 it still retains a lot of that, I think significantly 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:05.639 through the Fleming nine, which is within the course and 0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:07.359 and and that's the place that a lot of people 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:11.119 will just kind of play casually. But yeah, even Harding 0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:14.960 Park I believe partakes of this kind of feel of 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:18.840 San Francisco golf, which which I believe is different from 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:21.760 a lot of different cities. And I hope to see 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:23.760 it preserve. You know, San Francisco is a tough place 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:27.760 to live now, and and I'm I'm I'm a little 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:30.160 bit doubtful about the future of the golf courses there, 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:32.160 but I hope people stick by them. 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:37.360 Yeah, it's obviously there's a cost of living issue there 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:39.400 and housing issue. 0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:42.080 Were my wife and I were just looking out of 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:44.720 curiosity because we lived in San Francisco for three years 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:46.600 and we basically got priced out of the city. We 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:49.400 couldn't live there anymore. And that was that was more 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:52.720 than ten years ago. We were just looking at apartments 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:55.800 just out of curiosity, see what they what what they 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:59.480 go for now, and you're looking at five six thousand 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:03.119 dollars month and in a lot of places it's yeah, 0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:08.200 it's it's tough. They've got some issues there, but yeah, 0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:11.440 the golf courses are are on great pieces of property 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:15.280 and and I hope that they choose to save them. 0:27:15.920 --> 0:27:18.920 Yeah, So with the golf course, I think that we're 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:24.720 going to see a really similar setup at this year's 0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:29.840 US Open, but we're going to see completely I could 0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:34.679 probably couldn't get more opposite of green complexes at Wingfoot 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:40.199 versus Harding Park, where where even CBS is commentating about 0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:44.680 how flat the greens are, there will be no such 0:27:44.800 --> 0:27:47.560 remarks about about wing Foot. How do you think that 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:53.119 will impact the power players We saw, you know, always 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:55.600 having wedge in their hands, but not always necessarily and 0:27:55.640 --> 0:28:00.359 obviously Marco one largely thanks to his putting, but you know, 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:03.080 probably more thanks to the fact that you love the 0:28:03.080 --> 0:28:07.120 field and driving accuracy. How do you think that's going 0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:12.639 to impact the Bryson. I mean, Bryson drove it pretty 0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:16.480 pretty dang well, but we saw him in the rough 0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:19.640 a lot. How do you think that will play out differently? 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.439 Well, I'm not sure and I'd like to actually hear 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:26.119 your thoughts about this, because you've you've been to Wingfood 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:29.000 and you've looked at those greens. But you'd have to 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:32.920 assume that iron play would become really, really important, or 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:34.920 would become at least more important than it was at 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:38.600 Harding Park. Which makes you think about Morikawa again. If 0:28:39.040 --> 0:28:41.880 he's winning at Harding Park, it would seem almost that 0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:46.080 wingfoot is better suited to him because there there's going 0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:48.000 to be a real premium on being in the right 0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:48.960 section of the green. 0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:53.560 Yeah, I iron play is going to be huge. One 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:56.560 of the things that Jeff Ogilvie always says about US 0:28:56.640 --> 0:29:02.040 Opens is the underrated US Open skill is shipping and 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:05.160 the and pitching around the greens is that you have 0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:07.520 to have a great chipping week because you're going to 0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:11.560 miss greens and then it becomes about how you recover 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:13.440 and get up and down and and we're going to 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:18.440 see a lot more treacherous surrounds if you miss. That's 0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:22.440 where you know, almost always a double bogie is in 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:25.920 play around those greens when you miss. When you miss 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:28.720 the greens, it's almost like, oh boy, I better hit 0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:32.640 a great shot to have even you know, just save bogie. 0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:35.000 And I think that's maybe a little bit of the 0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:37.840 difference between what we're going to see at the two 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:40.680 is like Harding Park, if you got it around the greens, 0:29:40.760 --> 0:29:42.320 you were going to have a pretty good chance at 0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:46.360 making par. If you're in the wrong spot at wing Foot, 0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:48.680 all of a sudden, your focus some point in some 0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:53.000 points means turns to how am I going to save 0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:55.920 bogie and avoid having to make a six foot or 0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:57.880 for bogie? You know, how am I going to make this? 0:29:58.240 --> 0:30:00.160 You know, I miss my shot? How am I going 0:30:00.160 --> 0:30:06.000 to make this an easy bogie as opposed to you know, easy. 0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:09.560 Par Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. I think, well 0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:12.280 we'll see a lot more guys get in jail around 0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:15.080 Wayne Foot's greens. That that was something that you didn't 0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:18.320 see as much of this week, right, people were you know, 0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:22.080 there weren't a lot of like triple quadr quadruple bogies 0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:24.800 when when people missed in the wrong spots. 0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:28.160 That's that's one thing I felt like we missed a 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:31.360 little and we saw it obviously, like Joel Damon triple 0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:34.760 bogie at the end of Friday was you know, but 0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:37.640 that was more the case of Okay, he hit he 0:30:38.040 --> 0:30:41.480 bladed a forty five yard bunker shot, which is something 0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:44.920 that could happen. I you know, I think about what 0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:48.280 happened at Shinnikok Hills with you know, Tiger with a 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:51.480 wedge in his hand making triple on the first first 0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:54.000 hole of the tournament. And you know, I think Speeth 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:57.280 made an eight on ten if I remember correct. 0:30:57.080 --> 0:30:59.360 And guys just not being able to get anywhere near 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:01.520 the pins from certain bunkers. 0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:05.040 Keep it even keep it on the green from certain bunkers, 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:07.240 and I think that's what we're going to see. The 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:11.560 other idea is when you've got a wedge but you're 0:31:11.560 --> 0:31:15.240 in the rough and you're hitting across the greens at Wingfoot, 0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:18.600 and we're going to have a video pretty soon all 0:31:18.640 --> 0:31:22.320 about the greens. But the greens at Wingfoot sit up 0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:28.280 and then they have really big pronounced slopes. So if 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:31.240 you're on the wrong side of into the rough on 0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:35.040 a hole hitting to short side, your ball is landing 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:38.040 on a grade and the green say it's a five 0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:42.920 percent six percent slope, you have no chance. Versus at 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:45.880 Harding Park, we didn't see slopes above two percent. 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:53.040 So I'm curious the players seem to like Harding Park 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:55.440 a lot. You know, they said really positive things about it. 0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:58.720 They usually like PGA championship setups. There's a lot of 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:02.720 respect for this championship gets set up. Obviously not the 0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:05.480 same as true of the US Open and the USGA 0:32:05.720 --> 0:32:07.880 and the players. What do you what do you think 0:32:07.880 --> 0:32:09.640 the players are going to think of wing Foot or 0:32:09.680 --> 0:32:10.719 does it depend on setup? 0:32:11.760 --> 0:32:17.800 I think it's they they're going to feel sometimes. The 0:32:17.800 --> 0:32:22.040 one thing Carrie Haig said so much in the in 0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:24.880 in the interview that I did with them was fair, 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:29.920 the idea fairy, and I think it showed in the 0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:32.920 setup it was nobody's ever going to complain about the 0:32:32.920 --> 0:32:36.960 way that that PGA was set up. It was imminently fair. 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:40.760 I mean, so are they were complaining about the lack 0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:44.520 of sand and bunkers, I mean, which is a hazard. 0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:47.160 It just kind of gives you a lens into the 0:32:47.560 --> 0:32:51.320 and I've been there at playing as an amateur. Now 0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:56.240 obviously not but where I you totally buy into the 0:32:56.400 --> 0:33:00.240 unfair thing. There's a fair there's an entitlement thing as 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:03.520 a player in a tournament where you feel like everything 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:08.800 should be fair. But at wing Foot, you definitely have 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:14.920 the potential of a situation where people the crowd could 0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:17.800 start to think that it's unfair. And by the crowd, 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:20.880 I mean the players and the locker room talk might 0:33:21.440 --> 0:33:24.560 push it in a certain direction of oh, can you 0:33:24.600 --> 0:33:27.600 believe where they put the pin? Just because you know that? 0:33:28.240 --> 0:33:31.360 And I think that's the It's where I get frustrated 0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.360 a lot. Is like your point of the point of golf, 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:37.200 overarching is overcoming the obstacles in front of you with 0:33:37.240 --> 0:33:41.600 the equipment you have, you know, yeah, right, And that 0:33:41.640 --> 0:33:43.920 gets lost sometimes when you get in the discussion of 0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:47.840 fair it's like, well, it was it the same for everybody? Yes, 0:33:48.760 --> 0:33:53.120 then it was fair, right, yeah? 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:56.320 Yeah, But it doesn't feel like it to players because 0:33:56.600 --> 0:34:00.200 from their perspective, they may have played well or hit 0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:02.560 a good shot and it didn't work out for them, 0:34:02.880 --> 0:34:05.680 And that's really disappointing in a major right, And that's 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:07.760 hard to deal with emotionally, and so you have to 0:34:07.760 --> 0:34:10.680 deal with it somehow, right, You've got to process it somehow. 0:34:11.040 --> 0:34:13.960 And it seems like the way that at least between 0:34:14.000 --> 0:34:16.239 the players and the USGA, it's worked out that they 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:20.719 process it by blaming the USGA. And and you know 0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:23.080 that didn't happen as much last year at Pebble Beach 0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:26.320 because we saw the setup get a little more toward 0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:29.799 the PGA Championship end of the spectrum. So I wonder if, 0:34:29.840 --> 0:34:33.200 given the severity of Wingfoot's greens, whether they're going to 0:34:33.239 --> 0:34:36.279 be really cautious at Wingfoot. 0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:39.960 I think, and I think you could set it up 0:34:40.239 --> 0:34:43.600 very fairly and Wingfoot's still going to do its job, 0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:47.080 you know. I think one of the things that the 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.080 USGA has to deal with at your shinnecocks and your 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:54.640 wing foots also that doesn't get talked about is the 0:34:54.680 --> 0:35:00.400 balance with dealing with the membership side of things, where 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:04.520 they are being welcomed into these clubs that are very 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:11.160 closed off normally, and the idea of the members have 0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:15.799 a view of what the score should be, you know, 0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:21.400 and golf is changing so much with distance and scoring 0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:26.239 that the idea of trying to pease this, you know, 0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:29.960 to the public silent party that is pretty much invisible 0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:33.360 the week of the championship. They're in a tough position 0:35:33.480 --> 0:35:36.480 where they have to balance both sides of the coin 0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:40.480 there a little bit, because we all know that memberships 0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:43.839 love to puff their chests out about how difficult. Their 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:46.280 golf course is like, I can't go and play Butler 0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:49.680 without them insisting on me playing the back teas. And 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:52.040 I'll say that I don't want to play the back sees. 0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:54.480 That won't be fun at all, Like I'm going to 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:57.399 get my ass kicked, and you know, sure enough, then 0:35:57.640 --> 0:36:01.200 I shoot like a seventy eight with no birdies and 0:36:01.239 --> 0:36:04.480 it's like, well, that wasn't fun at all. But it's 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:09.000 like that that feeling of it has to be hard 0:36:09.280 --> 0:36:12.080 for the pros, which I don't even understand at the 0:36:12.160 --> 0:36:13.000 long You know. 0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:15.960 That's that's been with us for a long time, right, 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.719 that's a that's a big part of the story. At 0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:22.760 the nineteen seventy four wing Foot US Open, which was 0:36:22.880 --> 0:36:26.560 famously difficult, the members were advocating for they were happy 0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:30.600 the course, that the course was that difficult, and and 0:36:30.800 --> 0:36:32.960 I don't think that that's changed much. And what you've 0:36:32.960 --> 0:36:37.080 got at Wingfoot also is a very powerful membership too, 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:41.239 Like the people who belong to that club are not 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:44.640 nobody's in the world, and they can throw their weight around. 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:48.120 And so that's very interesting because at a place like 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:51.400 Chambers Bay you don't have that. So it's open season 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:52.279 on Chambers Bay. 0:36:52.840 --> 0:36:57.239 But but or Aaron Hills or Aaron Hills, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, 0:36:57.320 --> 0:36:59.640 And I think there was there was a period too 0:36:59.640 --> 0:37:02.879 where you know, the usg didn't go back to win. 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:06.920 They haven't been back to wing Foot or Shinnacock until 0:37:06.960 --> 0:37:10.640 two years ago for a while because of maybe said politics, 0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:14.319 you know. Yeah, yeah, so it it that should be. 0:37:14.560 --> 0:37:17.840 I'm really excited. That's probably the thing I'm looking for 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:20.200 to most the rest of the golf season. 0:37:20.280 --> 0:37:23.400 I don't know about you, Yeah, I mean definitely. You 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:26.440 look at the schedule, and certainly the US Open sticks 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:29.440 out as being being the interesting tournament that that we 0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:33.040 have left in the year. Aside from the Masters, We've 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:35.359 got what the Windom this week and then the then 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.319 the FedEx Cup playoffs and you know we kind of 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:40.399 know what that's going to be like mm hmm. 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:45.839 Yeah, Olympia Fields will be somewhat interesting. But I think 0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:50.160 that'll that'll kind of get beat up by these guys. 0:37:50.200 --> 0:37:52.480 But have they have they started the work there. They're 0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:55.080 supposed to do some work there, right, Yeah, that's that's 0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:57.919 too recent to to have come to fruition yet. Yeah. 0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.680 Yeah, they don't know what course they're going to do first. 0:38:00.760 --> 0:38:05.400 And so that's but the one of the things we 0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:09.839 talked about earlier, the pacing of around so Harding Park 0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:13.400 you kind of had this mixture of of getible holes, 0:38:13.520 --> 0:38:17.279 tough holes, gettable holes, tough holes. And then you have 0:38:17.440 --> 0:38:21.319 like your your Augusta where you know, at Harding Park 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:25.000 Matthew Wolf could have posted a great score and he 0:38:25.080 --> 0:38:29.200 might have won, right, And at Augusta you post a score, 0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:33.399 you really have no chance of winning, right. And at 0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:36.840 Wingfoot it's you know, the last five holes, if you 0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:40.280 post a score, you're you're probably in the driver's seat, 0:38:41.480 --> 0:38:43.720 like you can't get to the clubhouse soon enough. 0:38:43.760 --> 0:38:47.960 Out there, Yeah, there are courses where the longer you 0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:50.200 stay out there, the less of a chance you have, 0:38:50.520 --> 0:38:53.560 and courses where the shorter the time you spend out there, 0:38:53.719 --> 0:38:56.080 the more of a chance you have. Obviously, at Augusta 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:59.600 you want to be out there late on Sunday having 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:05.160 a shot at thirteen, fifteen and sixteen and going low. Yeah, 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:10.080 it'll be I don't know, like the Wingfoot it'll be 0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:15.319 obviously the seventy four Open and and what was it, 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:19.160 the chess oble be six Open. Those were wars of 0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:22.480 attrition like we remember those well. I wonder if it's 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:26.359 possible for that kind of championship to happen anymore. I mean, 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:29.480 I know we've had a couple fairly recently, but it's 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:33.439 been because the greens have been really hard and things 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:36.200 like that. I wonder if it's possible in this era 0:39:36.400 --> 0:39:39.080 of the USGA and the US Open for there to 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:43.839 be a five over par winning score at a place 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:44.520 like Wingfoot. 0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:45.880 I don't think it is. 0:39:46.760 --> 0:39:49.400 Yeah, I don't think so either. I think that the 0:39:49.600 --> 0:39:56.120 era of that occasional change sixty eight, right, Julie might 0:39:56.200 --> 0:39:59.759 have to start doing pretty soon. But yeah, I mean 0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:02.600 I think that I think that that era is gone. 0:40:03.160 --> 0:40:06.360 The time when you have that occasional championship where the 0:40:06.440 --> 0:40:09.600 winning score is seven over or whatever, I just don't 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:12.680 think we're going to see that anymore, unless something kind 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:15.920 of goes wrong and and they lose the golf course, 0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:17.480 you know, to quote zj. 0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:22.439 Or or fisted just crazy windy or something right which 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:27.000 we put in a heavy wind would not be fun 0:40:27.080 --> 0:40:30.680 at all. So I want to talk more about the 0:40:30.840 --> 0:40:33.960 Muni aspect. You wrote a piece about the Mega Muni 0:40:34.320 --> 0:40:37.320 and uh, you know the theme of it and is 0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:40.319 TPC Hardy Parks one of the few of these where 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:44.279 the idea of a community, a city getting behind a 0:40:44.400 --> 0:40:48.040 municipal course and renovating and pouring money into it with 0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:51.200 hopes of a championship. And I thought this was just 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:56.759 an interesting article topic and something that we have seen 0:40:56.880 --> 0:41:00.440 less and less, if not any of maybe one attempt 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:03.359 here in my city of Chicago recently to get something 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:05.560 like this off the ground. And how we've seen a 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:09.560 shift to the the mini Muni. But as we know, trends, 0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:13.160 they go both directions all the time. They could you know, 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:16.160 we're going to see swings in different directions. Talk a 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:19.600 little bit about the Mega Beauty and how it's fared 0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:20.720 across the country. 0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:25.880 So the Mega Muni is a kind of municipal course 0:41:26.200 --> 0:41:29.959 that gets renovated or built with the intention, as you said, 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:34.440 of hosting major championships. And you know, while they are 0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:39.120 city courses, they do charge high green fees for outsiders 0:41:39.200 --> 0:41:44.160 while giving discounted rates to locals. But the whole idea 0:41:44.440 --> 0:41:47.160 is to kind of bring money to town right when 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:51.000 these championships are held there. The city gets free advertising 0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:54.520 and everybody's happy about that, and the course gets some 0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:58.520 extra stature and starts to attract tourists tourists to town. 0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:01.560 Basically the golf court versus a kind of driver for 0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:05.560 the local economy, and it's also supposed to fund other 0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:08.839 things that the local government does. And so the main 0:42:09.000 --> 0:42:12.640 examples of this that I think currently exist that currently 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:18.720 function as mega munis are TPC Harding Park, Bethpage Black, 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:24.520 Tory Pines, and then most recently Chambers Bay. Chambers Bay 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.439 obviously is a new build, and then the other three 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:33.680 are renovations of older courses. And so, you know, I 0:42:33.800 --> 0:42:36.239 refer to these as mega muni's because I think they're 0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:39.360 pretty distinctive and they represent their kind of own model 0:42:40.040 --> 0:42:45.160 of municipal golf course. And most of them got built 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:49.320 or renovated in the early two thousands. Bethpage Black was 0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:52.880 the first, right. It got renovated in the late nineties 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:55.640 with the intention of hosting the two thousand and two 0:42:55.760 --> 0:42:59.200 US Open, And to my mind, that sort of started 0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:02.880 the trend. Right around two thousand and one, two thousand 0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:06.480 and two, two thousand and three, you saw Tory Pines 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:11.319 get renovated by Rhys Jones. You saw TPC Harding Park 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:14.920 get renovated by Chris Gray and the PGA tour, and 0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:20.040 you saw the county government, Pierce County government up in 0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:25.120 Washington start to move on the Chambers Bay build and 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.960 so all of these courses kind of came about in 0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:32.719 the same era. This was the late nineties early two thousands, 0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:35.200 and I think it was a result of a couple 0:43:35.280 --> 0:43:38.840 of factors. One is the rising economy obviously of the nineties, 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:42.760 but also the Tiger era. People just had a feeling 0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:46.719 during that early Tiger Woods era that golf was the 0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:49.120 sport of the future and that it was a really good, 0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:53.279 high potential investment to build a big golf course that 0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:58.759 would attract high green fees and championships. And so all 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:02.000 of these courses got to renovated right around the same time. 0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:04.680 And obviously they're still with us and they're still kind 0:44:04.719 --> 0:44:09.240 of doing their thing hosting championships, but since the recession, 0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:13.239 none of no more have been built, and so they're 0:44:13.480 --> 0:44:16.400 more and more starting to feel like relics of a 0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:21.040 bygone era of golf course development, of specifically municipal golf 0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:23.719 course development, and so I thought it was just time 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:26.880 to kind of look at those in context and consider, 0:44:27.840 --> 0:44:30.640 you know, how much are we really rooting for these 0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:34.759 golf courses. Would we rather see municipal governments kind of 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:38.800 take on smaller golf projects or do we want to 0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:41.719 keep seeing them kind of shoot for the stars and 0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:45.920 build a golf course that has the potential to bring 0:44:46.040 --> 0:44:48.600 in a lot of revenue. And I should say that 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:51.719 you know, Bethpage, Black and Tory Pines do pretty well. 0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:55.319 Oh yeah, I mean they fund a lot of things, 0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:59.560 and for those local governments TPC. Harding Park hasn't done 0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:02.880 as well as people thought, but it does fine. You know, 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:04.120 it's super busy. 0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:06.560 And I'm guessing it's going to do great after this. 0:45:06.760 --> 0:45:08.640 I think part of that so too. I mean, I 0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:12.080 mean part of the huge appeal of these championships is 0:45:12.719 --> 0:45:17.000 seeing people getting a commercial on TV like you referred 0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:20.560 to for the city and also the golf course. And 0:45:20.680 --> 0:45:23.400 then you know the years following where people are going 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:24.919 to be like, well, I want to go play where 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:29.640 they played that PGA. And I think that is a 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:33.000 huge part that Harding Park, like beth Page was lucky 0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:37.440 they got that championship right after, yes, And I think 0:45:37.520 --> 0:45:38.040 it was all. 0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:39.759 Part of the plan, right, I mean that it was 0:45:39.960 --> 0:45:43.560 the USGA really drove that it started in about nineteen 0:45:43.640 --> 0:45:47.080 ninety five, and yeah, it happened quickly, but it was 0:45:47.400 --> 0:45:51.200 you know, the fact that David Faye, that the executive 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:53.600 director of the USGA at the time, wanted to take 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:56.480 a championship to Bethpage Black is really what drove that. 0:45:57.160 --> 0:46:00.799 And I think that's the key is where where these 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:05.680 have really thrived has been with the major championship imminently 0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:10.360 in the future upon finish, and that to me is 0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:14.160 where I think about it today is how these could 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:18.880 continue and you could see maybe new places pop up Munie's. 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:22.680 Kevin Clark had a great Kevin Clark Ringer employee. He's 0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:25.920 got a great podcast, NFL Ringer Show, but he's an 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:29.239 avid golfer, avid golf fan, and he tweeted, I think 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.520 the PGA Championship, if it wants a real identity, should 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:35.200 be the major that plays on great and interesting public 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:39.200 muni courses every year. Golf should be fun and accessible, 0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:44.000 which I think this does have a larger appeal whether 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:47.520 or not. You know, I'm not a fan architecturally of 0:46:48.040 --> 0:46:50.960 Harding Park, but I am a fan of the of 0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:54.760 championships going to Munie's. And I think where Beth Page 0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:58.480 and Tory have succeeded so much is because right when 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:01.480 that work is done, had a championship in the next 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:05.719 year or two. And where maybe Harding Park struggled more 0:47:06.840 --> 0:47:09.040 is that the championship didn't come right away. 0:47:09.600 --> 0:47:12.239 Yes, yeah, this is the first major that they've held, 0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:16.000 even though obviously the renovation happened almost twenty years ago. 0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:20.080 So yeah, I mean, I think you're right that the 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:24.319 future of TPC Harding Park is bright. You know, it's 0:47:24.360 --> 0:47:26.320 going to have a regular tournament there. It's going to 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:29.120 be in the public eye pretty often, and maybe that'll 0:47:29.200 --> 0:47:31.319 drive more and more people to want to go play there. 0:47:31.320 --> 0:47:33.560 I think, certainly after this week this week, there are 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:35.279 a lot of more people who are going to be 0:47:35.400 --> 0:47:39.040 interested in playing Harding Park. I'm not sure it's been 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:42.279 on people's radar in making a golf visit to the 0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:45.200 Bay Area that Harding Park is a must play, but 0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:48.839 maybe maybe this week kind of pushed it to must 0:47:48.880 --> 0:47:52.080 play status because of how well it was received generally, 0:47:52.880 --> 0:47:55.440 And so there's a lot of hope there. What I 0:47:55.560 --> 0:47:58.480 need to see, though, what I'd really like to see 0:47:58.920 --> 0:48:04.360 out of the Megamuni model is an ability to fund 0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:09.239 an entire city's golf system. So San Francisco does have 0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:14.440 a golf fund, but it's a second priority for TPC 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:18.640 Harding Park behind paying back the money that it took 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:21.840 to get renovated. And I'm not sure they've really gotten 0:48:21.880 --> 0:48:26.200 to a point where they can start building that golf fund. 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:31.160 And for that reason, you've seen San Francisco very hesitant 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:37.080 to renovate courses like Lincoln Park, Glen Eagles, Sharp Park 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:39.800 down in Pacifica, which San Francisco owns and has a 0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:45.760 great history. Those courses have continued to decline in terms 0:48:45.800 --> 0:48:49.680 of their condition, just the general shape of the facility. 0:48:50.719 --> 0:48:55.360 They haven't gotten money injected into them since the renovation 0:48:55.440 --> 0:48:57.359 of Harding Park, and I think that that was part 0:48:57.440 --> 0:49:01.279 of the hope of the movement to renovate Harding Park 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:03.640 in the first place, was this will be a great 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:06.920 thing for San Francisco golf in general. So maybe that'll 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:09.520 happen in the future. Maybe this week has made that 0:49:09.680 --> 0:49:12.520 more possible, But I would really like to see these 0:49:12.560 --> 0:49:16.920 Megaminis actually do that thing where they're able to lift 0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:19.720 up all of the golf courses that the city owns 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:25.200 around them. I'd love to see Tory Pines eventually lift 0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:28.880 up Balboa Park, which frankly is the better golf course, 0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:32.520 but it doesn't have that tournament held on it, and 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:35.600 so it hasn't gotten as much attention. But Balboa Park, 0:49:35.640 --> 0:49:39.080 city owned course in San Diego, awesome place, but it 0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:41.479 needs some attention. It needs a little bit of money 0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:43.120 put into it that they're not going to spend on 0:49:43.200 --> 0:49:45.000 the clubhouse that they're going to spend on the golf 0:49:45.080 --> 0:49:48.400 course to restore it to that wonderful design that it 0:49:48.440 --> 0:49:52.360 had in the nineteen twenties. I'd love to see that happen. 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:54.520 But even though Tory Pines makes a lot of money, 0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:57.400 that just hasn't happened yet. And I'm not sure of 0:49:57.440 --> 0:49:59.920 the reasons exactly. It may just be the complexities of 0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:03.560 city government. It may be because Tory Pines has continued 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:06.440 to need renovations, right, they had to go back and 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:10.359 undo or redo what they did in the first place. 0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:12.080 Lost some money for not a lot of work. 0:50:12.440 --> 0:50:16.239 I know that much because a ton and so you 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:19.960 just have to wonder, when is this model going to 0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:22.279 really work in the way that people hoped it would, 0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:25.200 And I still hope it does. I think it's a 0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:28.160 great idea, you know, I want cities to have these 0:50:28.239 --> 0:50:31.440 big golf courses that attract a lot of attention and 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:34.400 a lot of cash that they're able to use in 0:50:34.560 --> 0:50:37.080 other ways to lift the city up and improve the 0:50:37.200 --> 0:50:41.800 services that the local government provides to people. But it 0:50:42.080 --> 0:50:46.319 just hasn't quite worked that way yet, and I hope 0:50:46.320 --> 0:50:48.080 it does, and I think once it does that you'll 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.920 see more cities trying it. 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:57.880 The other thing with obviously in Chicago Marivi, which is 0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:00.600 a nine hole er right on the lake, and the 0:51:00.840 --> 0:51:04.080 driving range, Diversity Driving Range, which has got to be 0:51:04.200 --> 0:51:06.400 one of the best settings for a driving range in 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:10.040 the in the world, but it's also at the same 0:51:10.400 --> 0:51:13.040 hand one of the worst driving ranges in the world 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:17.960 because of just the ball. It's just a it's just 0:51:18.040 --> 0:51:22.319 a brutal experience going down there. But that driving range 0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:25.800 in the golf course Marivits they float all of the 0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:29.640 other golf courses. They cover up the losses at every 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:33.120 other golf course. And then and I know in La 0:51:33.800 --> 0:51:37.720 the same is for Rancho Park and Rancho Park's driving range, 0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:42.439 where they basically cover the the losses of the rest 0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:46.680 of the golf courses that the that LA operates. And 0:51:46.800 --> 0:51:50.160 it's it's interesting that those two in those two cases, 0:51:50.280 --> 0:51:55.160 the Rundown golf Course that is, you know, great location, 0:51:55.760 --> 0:51:59.520 Rancho Park unbelievable, Bones could be a great golf course 0:51:59.640 --> 0:52:02.799 with with some money, it is a great golf course 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:07.040 to go play. Chicago's the driving ranges are such and 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:11.880 maybe that's a way is focusing in on also practice 0:52:11.960 --> 0:52:15.480 facilities with these mega munis to generate revenue. 0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:18.960 Yeah, yeah, you've got to look at creative ways to 0:52:19.120 --> 0:52:19.800 use the space. 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:20.279 You know, you. 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:25.000 It's not a mega muni if it doesn't have eighteen holes. 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:29.120 It's not a mega muni if it's not a championship layout, 0:52:29.239 --> 0:52:31.720 which means that you need to devote a certain amount 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:35.640 of room to the golf course. But at a place 0:52:35.760 --> 0:52:39.879 like Jackson Park and South Shore, where there has been 0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:43.840 a proposal to turn that into a championship facility for 0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:47.560 several years now, but that just hasn't found the support 0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:50.880 or funding that it needs. I think that that that 0:52:51.160 --> 0:52:54.880 whole idea, you know, you could you could quibble with 0:52:54.960 --> 0:52:57.319 some of the details of it, but the idea as 0:52:57.360 --> 0:53:00.920 a whole, where you're taking basically twenty seven holes of 0:53:01.000 --> 0:53:05.080 golf turning it into an eighteen hole championship course and 0:53:05.200 --> 0:53:08.120 then developing a practice facility and a number of other 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:14.520 drivers of revenue at the golf course place around the 0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:18.320 championship layout itself. I think that that's got to be 0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:21.160 the way to go, because, you know, it just seems 0:53:21.239 --> 0:53:27.560 like for municipal golf courses specifically, that affordable rounds of 0:53:27.680 --> 0:53:31.799 golf for local people is not the way that you're 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:34.279 you're going to make money. It's just not you know, 0:53:34.360 --> 0:53:37.120 it's a great service for the government to provide, you know, 0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:39.080 I don't want to knock that part of it. I 0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:42.040 think we have to remember that these are public facilities 0:53:42.120 --> 0:53:45.279 that the government is providing to the people. That's a 0:53:45.360 --> 0:53:49.200 great thing. But yeah, the mega muni model relies on 0:53:49.320 --> 0:53:52.840 the notion that these courses have a high potential to 0:53:52.920 --> 0:53:55.799 generate revenue, and yeah, you need to look at other 0:53:55.840 --> 0:53:57.680 ways to do that than just green fees. 0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:00.480 Well, and what we've seen with like winter Park, the 0:54:00.640 --> 0:54:04.960 mini muni has generated revenue profits for a city of 0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:08.880 winter Park, where going the complete opposite direction of the 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:12.960 idea of the mega muni, it has has generated money 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:17.239 where it's affordable, it's fun, it's welcoming to beginners. It's 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:20.720 a it's not an easy course for you know, expert 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:24.480 players by any means, but it's not challenging for beginners. 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:28.759 Has been and creating a welcoming atmosphere, which that's I 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:31.399 think one of the issues with the Megamuny is it's 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.719 not it never is going to be a welcoming atmosphere 0:54:34.800 --> 0:54:37.840 to a beginning player, and I think that's one of 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:42.040 the pitfalls of it, is that you're you know, and 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:46.040 I wonder if there's a way that there could be 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:50.720 the Megamuni mini Muni model blended together in any way. 0:54:52.000 --> 0:54:54.080 And I think Harding Park more or less does that 0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:57.719 with the Fleming Nine. The Fleming nine is a mini Muni. Now. 0:54:58.160 --> 0:55:00.839 I think it needs to be updated architect I think 0:55:00.920 --> 0:55:03.120 it could be more fun to play, you know, if 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:05.320 it's a course, it's a nine hole course that's supposed 0:55:05.320 --> 0:55:08.320 to be for kids and for older people, you know, 0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:10.600 why not make it a little bit more fun. I mean, 0:55:10.640 --> 0:55:13.160 it is fun. It's a cool little golf course. But 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:16.440 you know, while Harding Park has gotten some attention and 0:55:16.520 --> 0:55:19.440 him has been kind of polished up, the Fleming Nine 0:55:19.480 --> 0:55:21.879 has has sort of remained more or less the same 0:55:22.680 --> 0:55:25.760 so Harding Park does that. That said, there are people 0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:29.120 who used to play at Harding Park before the renovation 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:32.800 who are still mad about the fact that it was 0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:36.719 turned into this golf facility that charges a bit a 0:55:36.800 --> 0:55:40.880 higher green fee, even for locals that host championships. They 0:55:41.239 --> 0:55:42.480 wanted their old golf course. 0:55:43.000 --> 0:55:47.240 That's what I kind of think about, is like Harding 0:55:47.320 --> 0:55:49.880 Park kind of lost its soul when it went mega 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:54.720 because that you know, at a even you know, sixty 0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:58.040 dollars is not expensive for golf, but it's not cheap. 0:55:58.680 --> 0:56:01.360 Mm hmm. That's right. It's not where you're going to 0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:04.640 play every single weekend or or multiple times a week, 0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:07.160 like I think a lot of the Harding Park regulars 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:12.120 were in the nineties leading up to the renovation. But 0:56:12.280 --> 0:56:14.160 you know, that said, in San Francisco, it's a particular 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:17.480 situation because there are plenty of other city golf courses 0:56:18.239 --> 0:56:22.000 within a short distance, including inside the routing of Harding 0:56:22.080 --> 0:56:24.520 Park itself, where you can go to play a cheaper, 0:56:24.800 --> 0:56:27.680 more casual round of golf. But if a city has 0:56:27.800 --> 0:56:31.360 fewer golf courses, if it's looking to megafy one of 0:56:31.400 --> 0:56:34.600 its very few golf courses, then these questions I think 0:56:34.760 --> 0:56:38.040 become a lot more urgent and a lot more difficult 0:56:38.120 --> 0:56:40.719 to answer, and as you're saying, the minimuni and this 0:56:40.840 --> 0:56:42.919 is why I said in my article, I think that's 0:56:43.000 --> 0:56:46.480 the real future of municipal golf and that even after 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:50.840 the success of Winter Park, even after the success of 0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:56.080 Goat Hill Park and places like that, that it's still 0:56:56.200 --> 0:56:58.439 not quite catching on the way I'd like to see. 0:56:58.560 --> 0:57:01.680 And that might be be becase because people are imagining 0:57:02.280 --> 0:57:05.000 that the only way to renovate a municipal golf course 0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:09.440 truly is to go the Beth Page Black PPC, Harding 0:57:09.520 --> 0:57:13.560 Park Chambers Bay direction. But there are so many other options, 0:57:13.800 --> 0:57:15.560 and we're starting to see this. You know, we've got 0:57:15.640 --> 0:57:19.080 the Reversible Course in Atlanta, the Bobby Jones Golf Course, 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:23.320 We've got you know, rock Wind, community links, Andy Staples's 0:57:23.400 --> 0:57:26.440 community links model. It seems to be appealing to a 0:57:26.520 --> 0:57:30.120 lot of people. These are creative, smaller, less expensive ways 0:57:30.680 --> 0:57:34.240 of creating a great municipal golf experience without attaching to 0:57:35.160 --> 0:57:39.160 the PGA Tour or the USGA or trying to attract championships. 0:57:39.760 --> 0:57:41.920 But man, I just wish we saw more of it. 0:57:42.240 --> 0:57:44.680 I wish it were happening at a at a higher pace, 0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:47.880 And yeah, I mean, maybe I'm just impatient about it 0:57:47.960 --> 0:57:51.680 and unrealistic, but I just you know, there there are 0:57:51.800 --> 0:57:54.760 so many options out there for making municipal golf courses 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:59.400 great places to be that don't involve, you know, gunning 0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:00.240 for a US Open. 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:05.520 Yeah. The So this is where I kind of quibble 0:58:05.600 --> 0:58:09.480 and my kind of opinion on the Chicago project falls 0:58:09.600 --> 0:58:13.720 is that I think that became entirely too big of 0:58:13.760 --> 0:58:18.400 an ask. And one of the aspects of that is 0:58:18.600 --> 0:58:21.840 they could have started small. And you know, they had 0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:26.680 the perfect opportunity with Sydney Merovitz the nine holer, which 0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:33.280 is it got its lakefront property. I mean it as 0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:36.040 it is now is packed. It's a jam pack golf course, 0:58:36.400 --> 0:58:38.840 but that has the opportunity to be one of the 0:58:38.880 --> 0:58:42.120 best nine hole golf courses in the world because of 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:45.040 its setting. I mean I used to play there early 0:58:45.120 --> 0:58:47.439 in the morning before I'd go to work. I'd play 0:58:47.520 --> 0:58:50.040 at five in the morning and I'd be done at 0:58:50.120 --> 0:58:54.640 six fifteen, six thirty and watching the sun come up 0:58:54.720 --> 0:58:57.760 over the lake and playing golf along Lake Michigan and 0:58:57.840 --> 0:59:02.120 then hitting t shots with high rise apartment complexes as 0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:05.400 your backdrop. It's one of the neatest experiences and it 0:59:05.520 --> 0:59:08.800 has this opportunity where you could and it could have 0:59:08.880 --> 0:59:11.720 been done for fractions of the money. Obviously, the big 0:59:12.080 --> 0:59:16.000 hurdle that that Jackson Park and any megamuni project is 0:59:16.040 --> 0:59:19.320 gonna run into is funding, and that's the issue that 0:59:19.480 --> 0:59:22.880 Harding Park's having is paying back the funding, you know, 0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:28.160 And where I almost think there is a potential way 0:59:28.440 --> 0:59:32.360 of the mini muni allowing the megamuni to happen with 0:59:32.520 --> 0:59:37.920 these big city golf systems where pouring. If you put 0:59:37.960 --> 0:59:41.520 two million dollars in higher a talented young architect at 0:59:41.560 --> 0:59:46.439 Sydney Marovitz, you're going to get an unbelievable golf course there. 0:59:47.200 --> 0:59:50.080 And then from there, all of a sudden you've built 0:59:50.160 --> 0:59:55.080 up the trust and then that megamuni becomes more of 0:59:55.160 --> 0:59:56.959 a realistic opportunity. 0:59:57.320 --> 1:00:00.919 Yeah you said it, I mean trust, community trust. That's 1:00:01.040 --> 1:00:05.680 such a huge deal, and every project builds it differently. 1:00:06.320 --> 1:00:10.800 In San Francisco, that was a huge part of the process. 1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:14.680 Sandy Tatum and the group that he was leading managed 1:00:14.720 --> 1:00:18.040 to garner the trust of the community and the buy 1:00:18.120 --> 1:00:20.640 in of the community enough to make it happen now. 1:00:20.680 --> 1:00:22.840 There are still people who objected to it, for sure, 1:00:23.440 --> 1:00:26.120 but increasingly toward the end of the project, those voices 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:30.680 became more and more marginalized. Jackson Park, the way that 1:00:30.760 --> 1:00:34.280 they went about introducing that project to the community was 1:00:34.520 --> 1:00:35.080 all wrong. 1:00:35.360 --> 1:00:35.520 You know. 1:00:35.560 --> 1:00:39.120 It was completely top down. People who lived in that 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:42.320 area were looking around and saying, I haven't heard anything 1:00:42.360 --> 1:00:45.680 about this. Who was asking me about this? Completely the 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:48.160 wrong way to go about it. Of course they're going 1:00:48.240 --> 1:00:50.400 to resist it if you're coming in and saying we're 1:00:50.480 --> 1:00:52.240 going to blow this place up and turn it into 1:00:52.320 --> 1:00:54.680 something completely different. And you know, here we are a 1:00:54.720 --> 1:00:57.320 bunch of rich, well connected people and you're just going 1:00:57.400 --> 1:01:00.600 to be grateful for it. No, that's bs You've got 1:01:00.720 --> 1:01:03.320 to go about it completely differently. And I think it's 1:01:03.360 --> 1:01:06.120 a great idea to start small, especially in this day 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:09.480 and age, when you know golf it's much different than 1:01:09.520 --> 1:01:12.400 twenty years ago that the idea of golf and the 1:01:12.480 --> 1:01:15.920 public consciousness right now, you need to help people understand 1:01:16.000 --> 1:01:18.800 that golf is may not be what they think it is. 1:01:19.320 --> 1:01:23.200 And that it can be intertwined with the community. 1:01:23.680 --> 1:01:28.280 Yes, exactly, that places like Winter Park exist and are 1:01:29.000 --> 1:01:32.680 very woven into the community in an unobtrusive way that 1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:36.520 you know, almost everybody is happy with. Now there are 1:01:36.560 --> 1:01:39.040 people who even objected to winter Park. There's always going 1:01:39.080 --> 1:01:43.240 to be conflict. But yeah, I think starting small and 1:01:43.360 --> 1:01:46.480 showing what a golf course can be and how it 1:01:46.600 --> 1:01:49.280 can improve a community, and how it can be open 1:01:49.360 --> 1:01:53.520 and accessible to a community that's huge, and then it 1:01:53.720 --> 1:01:56.480 makes it a lot more possible. And that this is 1:01:56.520 --> 1:01:58.880 the argument essentially, that you're making a lot more possible 1:01:59.280 --> 1:02:02.480 that you can make big moves right and get that 1:02:02.640 --> 1:02:06.360 mega UNI. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's uh, 1:02:07.080 --> 1:02:09.440 it's hard either way. To get the funding, even to 1:02:09.480 --> 1:02:11.560 get a little bit of funding for a small project. 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:13.760 That's hard to you know. 1:02:13.920 --> 1:02:16.800 And so I always think back to when I was 1:02:16.840 --> 1:02:21.160 in sales. I had a boss who told me, you know, here, Andy, 1:02:21.640 --> 1:02:23.320 one of the things you got to remember when you're 1:02:23.360 --> 1:02:25.880 selling somebody is if I came to your house and 1:02:26.000 --> 1:02:28.320 asked you to put a political sign in your house, 1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:30.400 and this is not going to be a political statement 1:02:30.480 --> 1:02:32.560 in any way. We're steering clear of that. It's just 1:02:32.600 --> 1:02:35.720 about the science here. But if I come, as you've 1:02:35.760 --> 1:02:39.880 reassured me, thank you, and and I'm comfortable now if 1:02:39.920 --> 1:02:42.600 I come ask you to put a small, you know, 1:02:43.360 --> 1:02:47.040 eight by ten inch sign in your yard, versus if 1:02:47.120 --> 1:02:48.880 I come and ask you to put a you know, 1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:52.080 a four foot by four foot sign, You're way more 1:02:52.280 --> 1:02:54.400 likely to put the eight by ten inch sign in 1:02:54.520 --> 1:02:57.120 your yard then right off the bat. But if I 1:02:57.200 --> 1:03:00.480 get that eight eight inch by ten foote in your 1:03:00.600 --> 1:03:03.360 yard and then I come back in you know, six 1:03:03.480 --> 1:03:07.120 weeks or whatever, four weeks and I say, hey, you 1:03:07.160 --> 1:03:09.080 know I got some bigger signs. Do you mind if 1:03:09.120 --> 1:03:11.680 I put this bigger sign, The chances of the person 1:03:11.800 --> 1:03:15.640 saying yes to the bigger sign are exponentially more likely 1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:18.320 now that they've had the small sign in there. And 1:03:18.440 --> 1:03:21.120 I think the same thing goes for golf within these 1:03:21.200 --> 1:03:24.840 local government is just being able to start small and 1:03:24.960 --> 1:03:27.560 if if it's a if it's a beauty, that's a 1:03:27.640 --> 1:03:30.680 little worse, worse for the wear that hasn't has seen 1:03:30.760 --> 1:03:33.680 better days. Even if you get them to do a 1:03:33.800 --> 1:03:38.880 small project that really significantly upgrades the golf course and 1:03:39.280 --> 1:03:43.200 does it at a small capital expenditure, is the way 1:03:43.320 --> 1:03:47.439 to get that bigger, bigger spend because you've shown, hey, 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:51.000 we can improve this and then the community and the 1:03:51.240 --> 1:03:53.400 bottom line sees a benefit from it. 1:03:54.880 --> 1:04:00.240 Yeah, I agree, and we've seen that a p coach 1:04:00.560 --> 1:04:03.240 succeed usually in smaller towns. 1:04:03.360 --> 1:04:03.520 You know. 1:04:03.600 --> 1:04:06.160 I can't think of a big city that has gone 1:04:06.160 --> 1:04:08.600 about it in this way because big cities are just 1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:14.240 you can't do anything ever. But but yeah, that seems 1:04:14.400 --> 1:04:18.560 very reasonable. The issue is that it's just it's almost 1:04:18.760 --> 1:04:22.040 like it's easier to do the huge project because it 1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:26.160 attracts people in their money, whereas if you talk about 1:04:26.240 --> 1:04:29.200 something small, it's not going to appeal as much to 1:04:29.280 --> 1:04:31.840 the people with the money. You just kind of have 1:04:32.000 --> 1:04:34.160 to do those smaller things on your own. It has 1:04:34.240 --> 1:04:35.720 to be your own initiative. 1:04:35.920 --> 1:04:36.080 You know. 1:04:36.280 --> 1:04:38.880 I'm starting to get this to know. The superintendent done 1:04:38.880 --> 1:04:42.160 in Eugene, Oregon at Laurelwood Golf Course, and he's been 1:04:42.240 --> 1:04:46.280 there for almost for ten years, maybe even up to 1:04:46.360 --> 1:04:50.000 fifteen years now, and he's just been making these gradual 1:04:50.080 --> 1:04:53.160 improvements to the course and he's really turned that place around. 1:04:53.760 --> 1:04:57.440 But it's been so hard, and that's a nine hole course, 1:04:57.520 --> 1:05:00.640 and the things that he's been doing have been you know, minor, 1:05:01.160 --> 1:05:04.840 very minor compared to the mega muni renovations that we 1:05:04.920 --> 1:05:07.880 were talking about earlier, and it's been just all his 1:05:08.240 --> 1:05:12.400 energy and initiative and talent, all of that has been 1:05:12.520 --> 1:05:16.600 necessary to make even the smallest things happen. And so 1:05:17.160 --> 1:05:18.479 it's just it's just hard. 1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:22.320 And uh yeah, here's what other one other thing I 1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:26.280 wanted to touch on briefly with Hardig Park. So they 1:05:26.360 --> 1:05:31.120 adjusted and narrowed their faaraway lines for this championship. What 1:05:31.240 --> 1:05:34.000 do you think the chances of those faraway lines ever 1:05:34.080 --> 1:05:37.280 getting pushed back out to their original size again are. 1:05:38.640 --> 1:05:42.040 I'd say that's pretty small, right, don't you think isn't 1:05:42.080 --> 1:05:45.880 that messed up? Yeah? Totally? But but it's now the 1:05:45.960 --> 1:05:52.320 PGA Championship Course, right, that's the PGA Championship Course, So 1:05:53.080 --> 1:05:55.040 why would they why would they change it? People want 1:05:55.080 --> 1:05:57.240 to come and play the PGA Championship Course. Now they 1:05:57.280 --> 1:06:00.720 come and they see wider fairways, and that might you disappointing. 1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:03.600 I mean that that's said. You know, Pebble Beach consistently 1:06:04.240 --> 1:06:06.840 takes us fair ways in and puts them back out 1:06:07.120 --> 1:06:11.080 after the US Open comes to town. But that's Pebble Beach, 1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:13.919 you know, It's it's uh, it's not a municipal golf course. 1:06:14.760 --> 1:06:18.120 So yeah, no that I agree, that's a that's a bummer. 1:06:18.320 --> 1:06:19.800 What do you think they're going to do about the rough? 1:06:19.880 --> 1:06:22.240 The rough has got to be gonna going to go lower, right, 1:06:22.320 --> 1:06:23.080 they're gonna. 1:06:23.080 --> 1:06:25.080 I'll tell what. I played it in March. It was 1:06:25.400 --> 1:06:29.080 not high, but it was still just so punishing. 1:06:29.240 --> 1:06:32.840 It's because that grass, you know, it's just yeah, it's gnarly. 1:06:33.320 --> 1:06:37.160 It's just was not not an enjoyable experience. I was 1:06:37.240 --> 1:06:39.960 not driving the ball well, and and I was just 1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:42.640 in the in the rough all day. And you know 1:06:42.800 --> 1:06:44.840 that you saw the best players in the world. The 1:06:44.920 --> 1:06:48.040 rough wasn't necessarily that long, but they were hitting shots 1:06:48.080 --> 1:06:51.840 that were just incredibly horrible because of you know, how 1:06:52.000 --> 1:06:53.160 thick it is and how. 1:06:54.680 --> 1:06:57.200 But of course that course is unbelievably hard for an 1:06:57.200 --> 1:07:00.479 average golfer, and it raises the whole subject of whether 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:03.760 it's possible for one of these courses to truly be 1:07:03.960 --> 1:07:06.760 enjoyable for the average golfer. And this is where we 1:07:06.880 --> 1:07:09.560 need to shout out Chambers Bay, which I think pulls 1:07:09.600 --> 1:07:12.080 this off really well. You know, that's a that's a 1:07:12.200 --> 1:07:15.000 fun golf course, but it obviously was plenty hard for 1:07:15.080 --> 1:07:17.600 the players in the in the twenty fifteen US Open. Now, 1:07:18.120 --> 1:07:21.600 the reason that it was hard then was was that 1:07:21.720 --> 1:07:25.600 it was it was firm, obviously, and the players didn't 1:07:25.680 --> 1:07:28.160 like that. And if the championship went back, maybe it 1:07:28.160 --> 1:07:32.000 wouldn't be the same way. But you know, the way 1:07:32.080 --> 1:07:35.200 that it goes about being challenging for good players but 1:07:35.480 --> 1:07:39.400 accessible for less skilled players, I think is really admirable 1:07:39.640 --> 1:07:43.600 and presents a better model frankly than Harding Park and 1:07:44.120 --> 1:07:44.800 Tory Pines. 1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:48.200 Yeah, I think that's one of my big complaints about. 1:07:48.600 --> 1:07:51.520 You know, what happens when the Mega Muni comes is 1:07:51.600 --> 1:07:56.880 then the golf court, the key golf course characteristic tends 1:07:56.960 --> 1:08:01.680 to you know, center around difficulty, and and you know 1:08:02.040 --> 1:08:05.840 when they that happens, then bad architectural decisions are made. 1:08:05.960 --> 1:08:09.720 And you know, for the every ten years it has 1:08:09.800 --> 1:08:13.480 the major Championship, every twenty years it has the Major Championship, 1:08:13.840 --> 1:08:17.280 there's there's fifty two weeks for those twenty two or 1:08:17.360 --> 1:08:20.160 twenty years. One week, you know, I can't do the mathem. 1:08:20.240 --> 1:08:23.360 I had a thousand weeks of pain and suffering for 1:08:23.439 --> 1:08:26.759 the regular players versus the one week where it stands 1:08:26.880 --> 1:08:29.799 up to the best players in the world, or it doesn't, 1:08:30.000 --> 1:08:32.240 because that's the other thing is sometimes it just doesn't 1:08:32.240 --> 1:08:33.240 even stand up to them. 1:08:33.680 --> 1:08:36.240 Right, Oh, it was a par seventy this week, so 1:08:36.680 --> 1:08:39.720 we should always remember that too when we look at 1:08:39.760 --> 1:08:43.920 the final sort of what was it minus thirteen number, 1:08:44.520 --> 1:08:48.920 that this was a par seventy golf course. But yeah, 1:08:49.000 --> 1:08:51.360 I mean, you know, and maybe that's fine. You know, 1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:55.280 maybe people maybe people really want to come and get 1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:58.640 abused at the PGA Championship venue. Maybe they want the 1:08:58.720 --> 1:09:00.799 same from the Tory Pine South Course. 1:09:02.360 --> 1:09:04.599 Well then they built the North course the same way. 1:09:04.840 --> 1:09:07.880 That's the that's that's the big blunder on San Diegos. 1:09:08.040 --> 1:09:10.280 I mean, it's a little wider and the greens are 1:09:10.280 --> 1:09:12.960 a little but no, you're you're right, and and and 1:09:13.760 --> 1:09:17.840 Balboa Park also go back there again. That the whole 1:09:17.880 --> 1:09:20.320 idea is okay, So if you're going to set up 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:23.360 a championship course for one of your courses, the other 1:09:23.439 --> 1:09:25.840 courses in the city should be different. And that's and 1:09:25.920 --> 1:09:28.200 that's what I'm looking for out of San Francisco. You know, 1:09:28.360 --> 1:09:31.839 make put a little bit of money into Lincoln Parker 1:09:32.040 --> 1:09:36.040 or Glenn Eagles and make those courses what they should be. 1:09:36.640 --> 1:09:39.759 And uh and if you can do that, then great, 1:09:39.920 --> 1:09:42.639 you know, make the fairways at Harding Park even narrower, 1:09:42.800 --> 1:09:45.840 make the rough even higher, you know, whatever you have 1:09:46.040 --> 1:09:49.519 to do. If you're going. If that enables you to 1:09:49.800 --> 1:09:54.120 attract enough money to fix up your other golf courses, 1:09:54.479 --> 1:09:58.200 then then awesome. I'm fine with it. But it doesn't 1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:01.439 seem like that's quite happening yet. M hmm. Yeah. 1:10:01.880 --> 1:10:05.720 So the Mega Beauty, Well, see what happens next. I'm 1:10:05.760 --> 1:10:09.400 sure there's going to be a proposed project pop up 1:10:09.600 --> 1:10:11.759 one of these days somewhere. 1:10:12.200 --> 1:10:15.280 I mean, Memorial Memorial Park is the closest thing that 1:10:15.400 --> 1:10:18.560 has happened in recent years. That's that's kind of a megamini. 1:10:18.640 --> 1:10:20.760 But I don't think they're looking for a major championship. 1:10:21.640 --> 1:10:25.479 That's an interesting one too in the architectural sense. They 1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:29.120 didn't hire the open doctor. They hired the guy that's 1:10:29.360 --> 1:10:33.360 known for building the most playable golf courses, right. 1:10:33.400 --> 1:10:37.880 Tom Duck. Yeah, so uh huh yeah, well it, I mean, 1:10:38.680 --> 1:10:40.240 what's that, what's that tournament going to be? 1:10:40.400 --> 1:10:40.439 Like? 1:10:40.520 --> 1:10:43.320 I don't really know, you know, we've uh, the Trinity 1:10:43.400 --> 1:10:45.840 Forest experience has made me a little bit gun shy 1:10:46.439 --> 1:10:50.280 about best practices of current architecture as it matches up 1:10:50.320 --> 1:10:54.280 with the PGA tour. So, you know, I hope Memorial 1:10:54.360 --> 1:10:57.160 Park works out. And it certainly seems like Doak was 1:10:57.360 --> 1:11:01.160 intentional about reaching out to play and asking them what 1:11:01.280 --> 1:11:03.960 they thought, you know, involving Brooks, Kopkin and all that 1:11:04.080 --> 1:11:06.760 kind of stuff, and so maybe maybe it'll work out 1:11:06.760 --> 1:11:08.640 a little better. But I think that's going to be 1:11:08.680 --> 1:11:14.880 an important moment for the kind of nexus between high 1:11:15.000 --> 1:11:19.680 level tournament golf and current golf course design. You know 1:11:19.800 --> 1:11:21.760 that that could be a moment where we either go 1:11:21.920 --> 1:11:24.760 one direction or another. If it works out brilliantly, if 1:11:24.760 --> 1:11:27.400 they if they all love the course, then maybe we'll 1:11:27.400 --> 1:11:29.479 get a few more like it. If they hate it 1:11:29.640 --> 1:11:33.800 and it's a disaster, then I'm afraid about what's going 1:11:33.840 --> 1:11:34.479 to happen next. 1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:38.479 I know that, you know, Tom's talked extensively on the 1:11:38.560 --> 1:11:41.439 podcast about you know, the slopes and the greens, and 1:11:42.479 --> 1:11:45.840 they're being handcuffed there. So I think what we'll see 1:11:45.960 --> 1:11:50.960 is probably a low score and you know, a golf 1:11:51.040 --> 1:11:56.120 course that's Trinity Force without as much as not you know, 1:11:56.400 --> 1:12:01.559 necessarily to stereotype it, but Trinity Forest ask from tee 1:12:01.720 --> 1:12:04.880 to green, but then on the green very very. 1:12:06.320 --> 1:12:09.880 Tame. Yeah, well I'll take it still. 1:12:09.960 --> 1:12:15.200 Yeah, you know, it's better than the TPC circuit, that's right. 1:12:15.800 --> 1:12:20.200 So all right, Garrett, any party thoughts, No. 1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:22.320 I mean, what a what a great week of golf. 1:12:22.400 --> 1:12:26.639 And I'm definitely looking forward to the US Open. 1:12:27.200 --> 1:12:30.000 Yeah, yeah, awesome week of golf. And it's cool to 1:12:30.040 --> 1:12:31.960 seek golf on a municipal golf course. 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:35.960 Absolutely, and it's and it's so cool to see Colin 1:12:36.040 --> 1:12:39.759 Morikawa when there, and and you know, the whole story 1:12:39.880 --> 1:12:43.360 is is just great. You know, obviously it got driven 1:12:43.439 --> 1:12:45.920 into the ground by the telecasts, but the fact that 1:12:46.120 --> 1:12:49.400 he is he is familiar with the era area, has 1:12:49.560 --> 1:12:53.839 has roots in the area, and uh and is emerging 1:12:54.120 --> 1:12:59.080 just now as a superstar at this municipal course. Fantastic stuff. 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:02.880 And I think that we'll definitely remember this one. This 1:13:03.000 --> 1:13:05.160 will be this will be a major kind of point 1:13:05.280 --> 1:13:08.400 in the history of you know, this part of the 1:13:09.920 --> 1:13:13.559 tournament golf's history, and so yeah, we're just processing it now.