1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: of views expressed here do not represent those of I 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: not even represent my own. And nothing contained in this 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: show should be used as medical advice or encouragement to 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: use any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today, I'm 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: gonna be talking with Anya Sere. And Anya is perhaps 11 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: the most well known and leading and longstanding activist for 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: harm reduction in Russia, which is no easy job as 13 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: you can imagine, as she's mostly been based in the 14 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: Netherlands in recent years, where she is the chair of 15 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: the Andre Rolka Foundation, which does harm reduction activity and 16 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: activism in Russia. And yes, that has still been possible 17 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: to some extent, but I thought that especially given what's 18 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: going on in the world now with Russia's invasion of 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: Ukraine and more and more attention and more and more 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: consciousness among Americans and really the global audience to what's 21 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: going on not just in Ukraine but in Russia. I 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: thought would be interesting to have an episode specifically about 23 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: drugs and drug policy and harm reduction and activism in 24 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: Russia and maybe reflect a little bit about what you 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: know insights that provides into Russia more generally. So, Anya, 26 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me on Psychoactive. You've 27 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: done huge Thanks for inviting me and the It's a 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: big owner for me. I'm really humble to be a 29 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: guest on one of your great episodes. And you and 30 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: I have not seen one another for quite some time, 31 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: but you have been deeply involved in this now what 32 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: for something like twenty years about trying to advance harm 33 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: reduction policies and programs and thinking in in Russia. Years 34 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: over twenty years now, So Russia, right, I mean, you know, 35 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: if we go back historically, right, the Soviet Union kind 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: of comes apart in the early nineteen nineties and there's 37 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: a kind of wild and crazy period in the nineties 38 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: where borders are open or as Yelson is the president, 39 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: things are a bit chaotic. I think drug use, you know, 40 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: it begins to increase significantly. You know, what was that 41 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: period like back in the late nineties before Putin and 42 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: especially looking at the drug situation back then as well. 43 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: I was born in nineteen seventy too, so I was young, 44 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: but I was like at the age when people start 45 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: to experiment with drugs, and you are absolutely right. It 46 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: was like something completely new and something too came to 47 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: us quite massively and unexpectedly, and a lot of young 48 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: people started to use drugs and started to use drugs 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: by injection, and when they started to work with medicine 50 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: san printiers, there was a huge concern about the future 51 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: of HIV epidemic and Russia which did not start yet, 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: but I was about to start. Because a lot of 53 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: young people, inexperienced people, and people who did not have 54 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: any information about drugs from there, you know, like parents 55 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: or they did not see the previous generation using drugs, 56 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: they started to use and they started to use in 57 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: quite harmful ways. And was it mostly heroine and heroin 58 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: coming from the Afghanistan? Was that the principle issue? Oh know, 59 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: firstly it was a homemade heroin we called the hunk 60 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: or churners. So it's like homemade opius and homemade stimulants. 61 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe you've heard about Interrussian math vetamine 62 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: also the kind of uh homemade product, and at first 63 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: it was that so hunk and veined. They were, as 64 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: far as I remember, like one of the first like 65 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: most popular drugs. And then maybe several years later actually 66 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: in the early nineties, the heroin like completely took up 67 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 1: all the drugs scene, like city by city in Russia. 68 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: But yes, a bit later. But even if you go 69 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: back to the days when when Russia was occupying Afghanistan, 70 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: was there already situations of heroin coming back into the 71 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: country by Russian soldiers for example. Bringing it back to 72 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: things like that, it was a fairly small scale until 73 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: things really kind of opened up in the in the 74 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: later nineties. I think it was quite small scale. There 75 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: was no like a public health emergency. People did not 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: hear much about that. I heard that there was some 77 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: even like always like small scale always substitution program somewhere 78 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: in Georgia, but it was not like a huge or 79 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: visible problem before Now, I have to tell you, the 80 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: only time I've ever been to your country, it was 81 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: back in the spring of nineteen nineties six I think 82 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: it was the annual Russian AIDS conference in St Petersburg, 83 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: And I guess was that a period mean sort of 84 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: a relative openness you think in those late nineties early 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: two thousands, when the sort of more open discussion could 86 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: happen even in kind of semi official gatherings. Yes, even 87 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: you are absolutely right. Ninety six is probably when harm 88 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: aduction started in Russian It started in Saint Pietsburg with 89 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: the support of Medicine's Dumont. I think they set up 90 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: the first harm aduction program in Russia that the still running. 91 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: And uh again in the late nineties, like nineties ninety 92 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: eight ninety nine, when I worked with Medicine San Frontiers 93 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: who set up a huge national program for training of 94 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,559 Speaker 1: doctors and drug treatment specialists as doctors, there were huge 95 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: hopes that the like all this training programs were done 96 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: with the support of the Ministry of Health. I remember 97 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: going to outreach in Moscow with the guy who was 98 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: the chief consultant of the Ministry of Health on drug issues. 99 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: So the scene was quite quite open and Russian specialist, 100 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: the Russian doctors, especially drug treatment doctors and especially in 101 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: factious disease doctors who are looking at the HIV epidemic, 102 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: they will quite open to the idea of harmonduction, and 103 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: I remember these conferences. They were always very interesting, Like 104 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: the First AIDS conferences were amazing. You could meet people 105 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: from all around the world talking about the experience and 106 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: age prevention in their countries. The training that MSF set 107 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: up for the regional doctors was great, and we learned 108 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: so much from our colleagues from other countries. And there 109 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: was a time of create of great aspirations and the 110 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: time when we believe that it will be possible to 111 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: really stop the AGS epidemic in people who use drugs, 112 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: people who in jeb drugs in Vassia. Despite the huge 113 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: scale of this group and the all so expectations that 114 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: the donors will support the pilot programs of harm induction, 115 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: but then they will be taken up by the state 116 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: and they will be implemented all over Russia, scaled up 117 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: to reach like sixty percent of people who who inject drugs, 118 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: and every city is recommended by WHO organization and so 119 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: on and so on and and a lot of people 120 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: were released from prisons. I think it was about thirty 121 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: thousand people that were released from prisons back then. Uh 122 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: and it was like but unfortunately it is the last 123 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: time the Russian drug policy changed to the pattern. For example, 124 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: I remember, with the support of df IDA, there was 125 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: a huge program planned to scale up harm reduction into 126 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: Russian regions and the Ministry of Health was supporting it. Unfortunately, 127 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: this program didn't happen due to the world uh in 128 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: the rock when the funds were withdrawn. But there were great, 129 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, like preparations to scaling up harm reduction in 130 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: a big way in Russia, which never happened because there 131 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: were a well, huge boys to turn after two thousand eight, 132 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: which we can talk about later, right, Well, we'll get 133 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: to that, so just for our listeners, just uh, you know, 134 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: and has mentioned a few organizations Mont San San Frontier, 135 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: which was an organization of doctors working in war zones 136 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: and otherwise trying to help with things, founded by Bernard Kushnair, 137 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: the former French health minister and politician, and then the 138 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: organization met Saint Dumont, which sort of spun off, you know, 139 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: Doctors of the world that spun spun off from its 140 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: frontier with the same leadership. Interestingly enough, I think there 141 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: was some internal division there. And she also mentioned different 142 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: which was basically the A I D. The International Aid 143 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: Department of the British government, and so these were all 144 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: quite involved. Now, even when putin comes in around roughly 145 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: two thousand, right, for the first five or six years, 146 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: I think things were fairly open. I mean there was 147 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: even a kind of shift in the law where drug 148 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: users were let out of prison. Just say a little 149 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: more about that, you know, that continuing sort of open period. Right, 150 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: there was a little shift in the law. I think 151 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: it was around two thousand three, two thousand four, quite 152 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: an achievement in the reform of the Criminal Code of 153 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: Drush and Federation. Before the shift, it was possible to 154 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: literally lock person up for i don't know, like ten 155 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: years for just like something that was found in there. 156 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: So it was really harsh, and any amount of drugs 157 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: was considered a large amount of drugs. But after the 158 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: reform it became a little better. So unfortunately in Vassia, 159 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: the amount for which a person can be incarcerated is 160 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: defined by the state and not by a judge, and 161 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: so the state has to confirm this like table of amounts, 162 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: and in two thousand three was probably the last drug 163 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: policy reform was successful. When the amounts for example, if 164 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: you talk about heroin, it was from zero point zero 165 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: zero something a large amount. It came to half half Graham, 166 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: so half gram of heroin before the half cram. A 167 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: person was is not liable for criminal responsibility. But I 168 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: think also it's important stand that I think, you know, 169 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: as an activist, you know, I mean, my my attentions 170 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: were always global, but the US is obviously my principal preoccupation. 171 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: And one of the great humiliations of being an American 172 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: was the fact that we had the highest incarceration rate 173 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: in the world going back to roughly the late eighties, 174 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: early nineties and continuing to today. But typically Russia was 175 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: number two. Russia was the second, always, always after you guys, 176 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: and I think that may still be the case. How 177 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: do you explain this, like, you know, long standing commitment 178 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: of Russia at the high levels of incarceration. I think 179 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: it's just because it's like, you know, big land, big prisons, 180 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: and in this economic transition time, and there was the 181 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: equation like what to do with the large population, like 182 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: people could not get jobs. People. I remember because I 183 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: worked with this Doctor's Without Borders Medicine some frontiers, and 184 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: we went around the Russian Siegies. I went to maybe well, 185 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, like not every Russian beaching, but like 186 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: a lot of them. And they've seen some Russian cities 187 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: and this cities were economically depressed, like people could not 188 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: find the job, people couldn't like the onli like basically 189 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: the only thing people were interested in those drugs all 190 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: like drug Well not everywhere, of course people studied then, 191 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: like there was still some groups that could live better. 192 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: But like for the poor population, I think was just 193 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: the Russian solution. Yeah, and prisons became so big. Prisons 194 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: became like a big part of the response to the problem. 195 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: But I have to say when you talk about the 196 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: role of poverty, I mean lots of other countries have 197 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: gone through terrible poverty without having anything like the incarceration 198 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: rates that Russia the US have had. So has there 199 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: been a racial ethnic dimensioned that was going on in Russia? 200 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: Is it mostly about poverty? There's kind of comfort with 201 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: putting people in jail and prison. What is that about 202 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: in Russia? Well, it's difficult to say. There is a history. 203 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the yells some time, 204 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: it was the first several years, less than ten years 205 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: when we had the glassness, you know, historic when people 206 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: started to be involved in the discussion. But before people 207 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: were just silent and it was convenient to you know, 208 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: build up a huge system, and of course it had 209 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: to be filled in. There is always an ethnical aspect 210 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: to the war on drugs I think the main marker 211 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: for people to be locked up was, Yeah, it was 212 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: the poverty. I mean, like the drug use associated with overtire. 213 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: So it wasn't as if you had disproportioned numbers of 214 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 1: checking it's going in, or disproportional numbers of people that 215 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: come from you know, former Soviet republics and Central Age 216 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: or something like that. It was basically about people, poor 217 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: people who were using drugs, selling drugs involved in that 218 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: world who were getting locked up, whereas you know, more 219 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: affluent people using drugs generally avoided getting in trouble and 220 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: a kind of real comfort with the police and government 221 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: authorities who just throw the people away. I think there 222 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: was definitely not lily an ethnic you know bias, and 223 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: especially as you mentioned, people from the Central Asian especially 224 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: from Tajikistan, Peakistan, but also Roman people were greatly affected 225 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: by this bias. But in general, I think the main 226 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: population that went to prison was just for people who 227 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: who got addicted to drugs. And this time a lot 228 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: of reports sort of go back to roughly two thousand 229 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: six two thousand seven as a kind of moment when 230 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: things really began to change, when when Putin seems to change, 231 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: maybe partially in response to things that are happening with 232 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: NATO in the West, but also with things that are 233 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: happening domestically in Russia. I would say for us the 234 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: turning point was was two thousand nine, because we remember 235 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: it quite clearly, because in two thousand eight there was 236 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: an interesting moment when the Russian Ministry of Health was 237 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: presenting at the regional eighth conference was called ECOQ, the 238 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: Eastern European Central Asian Aids Conference, which was goal sponsored 239 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: by the Russian government and the United Nations Programs Program 240 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: on AIDS, and she was speaking at the conference. There 241 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: were many guests from the Global Fund to Fight its 242 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: UH Tuberculuis and MILLARYA, which became the main donor for 243 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: the harmonduction programs and other ADS programs in Russia by then, 244 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: and I should say it was about eight harmorduction programs 245 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: back then in Russia funded by the Global Fund, and 246 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: she said that we will be able to pick up 247 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: all these programs. We have the capacity, we have the resources, 248 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: we have the money, and we will continue everything ourselves. 249 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: Then a year later she talks of the Security Council 250 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: before Dmitry mediated if I think he was the president 251 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: back then, and putting the prime minister. Well, she talks 252 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: before the government and she says that harm reduction contributes 253 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: the Russian way, and we have our own way to 254 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: deal with the AIDS problem and harmonduct and is not 255 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: one of them, because harm reduction programs have proved in 256 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: effective in the Russian context, and we will have to 257 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: follow our own Russian way to deal with drugs and AIDS. 258 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: And that wasn't two thousand nine. So that for us 259 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: was the main kind of turning point when the official 260 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: government of policy has completely changed. And if before like 261 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: two thousand eight, two thousand nine, we had at least 262 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: some hopes that it will be possible to do something 263 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: and like really like prevent AIDS and HIV in Russia. 264 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: Up to two thousand nine, we just realized that the 265 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: government policy has changed and we will be living in 266 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: much more challenging times. So just for our listeners to 267 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: fill in a little context here, And when I mentioned 268 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: the Global Fund, I mean that was the organization that's 269 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: creating early two thousand's the Global fun to fight AIDS, 270 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: tuberculous tuberculosis and malaria. Just something something that's just called 271 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,239 Speaker 1: the Global Fund, which is a sort of international financing 272 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: and partnership organization funded by governments and some private foundations 273 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: like the Gates Foundation, which is given out almost fifty 274 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: billion dollars to fight AIDS to regulus the malaria over 275 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: the last roughly twenty years. So there comes this point 276 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: where the Russian government basically says we don't want your 277 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: money and we don't want your ways. And that's roughly 278 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. And yes, in two thousand and nine, 279 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: days started to really like close up on the international 280 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: partnerships and slowly slowly sending home all the donors, including 281 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: the UN agency is the UN Office on Drugs and 282 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: Crime has been shut down in Russia, and well UN 283 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: Development program of course, so all the like major UN 284 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: programs have been shut down. When I think about it, 285 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: you know, it means though what you're saying, though, isn't 286 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: that first decade of the two thousands you say they 287 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: were roughly seventy eighty harmorduction programs up and going in Russia, 288 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: and I have assumed many of them were doing needle exchange. 289 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: And it was not just in big cities like Moscow 290 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: and St. Petersburg, but in quite a number of other 291 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: places in Russia. It was all over rushal like, Russia 292 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: has eighty nine I think so called oblast or territories, 293 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: and in every of these territories we had the harm 294 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: aduction program pilot in a major city. Yeah. Uh so 295 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: there were over eighty programs in some smaller cities as well. 296 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: So we had like violence and bigger and smaller cities 297 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: to see how they can reach out to people. And yes, 298 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: they will needle exchange programs and needland citrange programs. Alboways. 299 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 1: Substitution treatment has been always prohibited in Russia, and there 300 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: is a provision into the Russian law that prohibits to 301 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: provide all like any kind of prohibited or controlled substances 302 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: to people with drug addiction. So apilways substitution treatment was not. 303 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: It was like an issue for the international organizations and 304 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: later for ourselves more like local grassroots Unity advocacy group 305 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: to fight for substitution treatment but the Midlands each programs, 306 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: outreach programs, um you know, access to HIV testing and 307 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: later treatment, improved access they were available in Russia. So 308 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: it was a period of relative openness, I guess. And 309 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: in that way, no, I mean, I also presume that 310 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: certain regions were much more sympathetic and open where others 311 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: were much more grudging or repressive. That I mean, were 312 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: there any standout regions back in the day that were 313 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: particularly supportive of harm reduction in a more cutting edgeway. Yeah, 314 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: I mean the world visions that were most supportive. And 315 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: I remember, for example St. Petersburg from the very early times. 316 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: They enjoyed the support of the city here, you know, 317 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: the hospitals and the munistable budget and the local specialists 318 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: and the local decision makers were much more open to 319 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: the idea of harm reduction and scaling it up through 320 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: the local medical system like health system, whereas for example, 321 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: in Moscow where we worked, all harm aduction was prohibited 322 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: by the former mayor, and he he issued an order 323 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: prohibiting all the like health organizations in the city to 324 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: participate in any kind of harm reduction Midland city inch programs, 325 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: outreach and so on. So there was definitely a difference 326 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: in approaches, but like most of the cities were convinced 327 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: by the Ministry of Health and other partners like earlier 328 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: in the history, that harm aduction is a good approach 329 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: to the problem. And only the most conservative the city governments, 330 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: like the Moscow the Mostcow city government, they really opposed 331 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: harm reduction from the early days. So I actually have 332 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: to ask you this question. So, I mean, you've been 333 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: living in the Netherlands for a number of ers now 334 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: but seven years, but you're still a Russian citizen, right 335 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: and and you're still a family in Russia, and you're 336 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: learning a foundation andre Ricco Foundation or you know, sharing 337 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: it that that is active there. So in our us 338 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: having this conversation now, it's seeming like increasingly repressive just 339 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: this year and since the invasion. Do you have to 340 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: worry about some of this stuff in your conversation with 341 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: me right now? Uh? Not in the conversation. But we 342 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: do have the worries about the security of our work. 343 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we had this worries before. And I should 344 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: say that our organization is a for an agent organization. 345 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: We were included in the least than two thousands sixteen 346 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this station was getting worse and worse year 347 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: after year, and now after day after Russia started the 348 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine. The situation in Russia is becoming very 349 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: very dark and we honestly don't know what will happen. 350 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: We have of course, like discussed a lot all the 351 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: security measures and like we have relocated several people from 352 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: our organization al Radio to other countries, to Georgia, but 353 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: most of the people are still in Moscow and we 354 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: are still doing everyday outreach work and need land Syrange 355 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: provision to our clients, the case management, the street lawyers program, 356 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: the mental health program, so we're still doing the work. 357 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: But we just like more and more prepared that this 358 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: may not be maybe at some point even possible. But 359 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: to be honest, like I told you about this station, 360 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: but the most school government like years ago, but still 361 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: we were we were the first who started new and 362 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: Syrange program in Mosque, which despite all this concerns and 363 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: we kind of trained ourselves to uh he had to 364 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: work in very difficult conditions and like in this situation 365 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: when maybe next year or even like next months, we'll 366 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: have to suspend our activities and we've been able to 367 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: continue our work since two thousand nine, every day with 368 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: every day awareness that it may not be for a 369 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: long time. And now we are very concerned what will 370 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: happen in Russia, uh, because we are looking at the 371 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: complete like probably a closure on the civil society here. 372 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: And you probably know that a number of well all 373 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: the international human rights organizations have been expelled in Dussages 374 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: this week, including Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and so on. Yes, 375 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: it's not safe, definitely not a safe space for civil 376 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: sides organization to do the harm induction work. And is 377 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: it apart from Moscow at St. Petersburg, are there still 378 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: some other pockets in the country where harmorduction programs and 379 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: activism is still possible. There are some other organizations that 380 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: are doing harmonduction. But I think now do to the 381 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: financial and of course the political situation, uh, it will 382 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: become more and more. Well, it's already too difficult, too difficult, 383 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: and people are being really like exposed to a huge 384 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: pressure on behalf of the government or all the Yeah, 385 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: because I was reading about one program or one area, 386 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: like I think in the city of kan in the 387 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: Republican tatarstand which is I think, well, you know, republic 388 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: has maybe one third Muslim, and that that was also 389 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: a place at at harm aduction at least until recently 390 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: or hopefully even until today. He's actually the Tarstan was 391 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: one of these like territories where they plan to scale up, 392 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: like when I was talking about the DEFT program. They 393 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: Arstan was one of the friendly territories that were ready 394 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: to support harmonduction financially, and that we're quite open to 395 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: the idea, and where there were a huge number of 396 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: great specialists who work in the a's or drug field 397 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: and they were supporting harm aduction. But now I think 398 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: all this activities have stopped. Yeah, there is no harm 399 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: aduction program anymore. Just became too too dangerous, too young 400 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: to continue this work. We'll be talking more after we 401 00:23:47,680 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: hear this add You know, you mentioned before that there's 402 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: no opioid substitution treatment, no method on now, no bupern orphine, 403 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: and and that Russia is really I mean, it's been 404 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: remarkable in its absolute indifference to the science, the evidence, 405 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: the fact that this is the recommended treatment for heroin 406 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: other opioid addiction by the World Health Organization and almost 407 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: every other repeal organization around the world, and that even 408 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: as you see method on maindance programs emerging in parts 409 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: of Asia, you know, Vietnam, China, Indonesia, you name it, 410 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: where which you couldn't have an imagine method on maintenance 411 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: programs twenty years ago. You know, even as you see 412 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: it popping up in even all all other countries that 413 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: used to be part of the Soviet Union, Russia has 414 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: this sort of fierce ideological opposition to it, right, and 415 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: this I think they call it a narcological establishment. Narcology 416 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: is which they call like the drug addiction expertise, me, 417 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: can you just give us some more insight into this 418 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: and why this crazy ideological crazy is in terms of 419 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: opposing any method and buprenorphine, especially in the phase of 420 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: rising opioid detection problems. Yeah, even it has always been 421 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: a mystery for me and for anyone who tried to 422 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: understand this issue. Why there is such a huge position 423 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: to a simple public health intervention like the first line 424 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: intervention for people with apioid or dependency or other problems 425 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: related to aupioid use. So it is not clear why 426 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: there is such a huge opposition. There is a theory though, 427 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: that is a historical position and one of the fathers 428 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: of Russian like founding fathers of their Russian archology. Academisian Bobaiyan, 429 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: who was also a very prominent figure in the Russian 430 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: psychiatry in the Erpsky Institute, the kind of homeland for 431 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: their repressive psychiatry, the psychiatry that was used against the 432 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: dissidents in the late seventies and ages. He was the 433 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: first person who who started to deal with drug drug 434 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: addiction and alcohol addiction problems, and he modeled these uh 435 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: interventions on the basis of this repressive psychiatry kind of philosophy. 436 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 1: He was also for a long time member of the 437 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: International Narcotic Control Board. You know, Russia has been on 438 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: the board for a long, long long time, and maybe 439 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: also one of the reasons why the International Narcody Control 440 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: Board became such a comparatively depressive organ in monitoring the 441 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: implementation of the Conventions on drugs. So this is the 442 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: same person, the same person who was in power very 443 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: much on the international arena, but he was also in 444 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: power in Russia, and he kind of conceptualized the whole 445 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: like this, you know, mandatory labor and the labor camps 446 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: for people who use drugs or people who are addicted 447 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: or to drugs or alcohol. And he is the one 448 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: who was very much opposed toward your substitution treatment. He 449 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: thought that drugs could not be provided to people with addiction, 450 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: that drug cannot be a solution to a drug problem. 451 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: And this philosophy it became the kind of main belief 452 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: of the of the Russian ideologists who worked in the 453 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: drug treatment field. You know, like uhh, it almost seems 454 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: like a closeye religious commitment. It was because you know, 455 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: you can understand, like you know, China with the history 456 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: of the opium wars, and they had this resistance, you know, 457 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: not just the heroin, but obviously even a methodic maintenance. 458 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: And then fifteen years ago whatever they make, you know, 459 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: they turn around on this thing. And countries malais I said, Malaysian, Indonesia, Iran, right, 460 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: you know, which has method on maintenance. And then you 461 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: even see, I mean, as I when I was looking 462 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: at the map just recently of the former Soviet public, 463 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: it looks like essentially all of them, you know, except 464 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: for uh maybe a Turkmenistan or something like that, but 465 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: all of the other formers have had needle exchange and 466 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: methodon with a few small exceptions, So it seems like 467 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: this failure mentioning may have influenced things more broadly during 468 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. It's only a Russia where it remains 469 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: this almost article of faith. Would you meet people working 470 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: in the Ministry of Health and others who are sort 471 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: of embarrassed by this ideological opposition to methodon, yes, definitely. Well, 472 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: I agree with you completely that it's rather like a 473 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: symbolic symbolic belief or as you say, religious belief of 474 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: the Russian specialists. And I think it was used from 475 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: the very beginning as this kind of point that Russian 476 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: narcology as it was called, is different from the Western 477 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: narcology that is based on its own like I don't know, epistemology, 478 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: and is based on its own Russian way. So it 479 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: was from the very beginning like a very big, very 480 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: big thing for the decision makers, and a lot of 481 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: decision makers, including some people worked in the mystery of health, 482 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: both on the sides of aids and on the sides 483 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: of drugs, they tried to challenge that because they understood, 484 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: understood perfectly well that it's a great tool to stop 485 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: the ase or at least like slow down the as 486 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: epidemic in this population, and also to provide help to 487 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: people with obvio dependency. Of course, later it also became 488 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: an issue when a lot of people already had HIV 489 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: and they could not get access to enter a troviral 490 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: medicines because they were considered not productive for the society 491 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: and also because they could not be maintained without the 492 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: substitution treatment. So there was all and of course also 493 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: treatment of tuberculoise is substitution treatment could be a great 494 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: key to like preventing the munstruct resistant to perculosis epidemic 495 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: that we had in Russia. Uh So it was clear 496 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: to everyone who worked in health that it would be 497 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: a really like great solution to a lot of problems 498 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: and be pool including great you know, medical specialists, accademissions 499 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: and like uh you know, professors and even officials from 500 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Health. They were supporting substitution treatment, but 501 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: there was always something that was opposing it, and this 502 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: something was the conservative ideology. And whenever people pushed too far, 503 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: they just lost their positions, and at some point it 504 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: became just impossible for Russian professionals, and that probably in 505 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: the midle thousands when it became completely impossible for the 506 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 1: Russian professionals to talk about audio substitution treatment. Yeah, it's 507 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: amazing because you know, I remember I looked, I took 508 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: a look at your website for the Andrew Record Foundation, Uh, 509 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: and there's almost nothing on it now. And my recollection was, 510 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, years ago there was a lot of interesting 511 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: information about harm reduction and maybe stuff on method on 512 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: and and your cases in the European Court of Human 513 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: Rights and all that sort of stuff. But now I think, 514 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's almost such a defined there. 515 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: And is it basically the point where even talking about 516 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: method on maint and it's much less advocating for it 517 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: is actually criminalized in Russianale, Yeah, talking about all all 518 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: the illegal substances is a danger. And like the first time, 519 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: our yeah, you're right, we had a great, great website 520 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: and of course we put all the like regulations and 521 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: all the normative guidance and all the like medical guidance 522 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: on the website. And we also had the recommendation from w. 523 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: Chow from the UN Committee on Economical, Social and Cultural 524 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: Rights that recommended that Russia legalized perious substitution treatment back 525 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven or two thousand twelve. And our 526 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: website was first attacked by the Federal Drug Control Service 527 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 1: back in two thousand and thirteen and it was just 528 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: shut down without any illegal action by the Federal Drug 529 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: Control Service. Then we challenged them in court and the 530 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: side went back online and we have maintained it for 531 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: another like long time. All we received a lot of 532 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: administrative punishment and fines. One of the biggest fine was 533 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: when we published information about harm reduction on UH newly 534 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: psychoactive substances like the METHODRON harmonductional METHODRON. We published the 535 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: information and we will find with like around ten thousand 536 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: Europe for just like publishing the harmonuction information on the website. 537 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: But the last attack was in twenty twenty when during 538 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: the COVID pandemic, journalist published an article with our citations 539 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: and about the very difficult situation economic collustiuation during the 540 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: pandemic for people who use drugs, and we will attacked 541 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: by the parliament member of the Russian Federation, and we 542 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: just realized that it's too dangerous to have so much 543 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: open information and we put our website to the bare minimum. 544 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: We now only have the Contacts Center like basic information 545 00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: about the organization and donate button. Yeah, you know, I 546 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: remember that that you guys in your allies were doing 547 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: some very creative activism in the past. That reminded me 548 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: of some of the stuff that act UP to the 549 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: United States back in the eighties and nineties and early 550 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: arts around around drugs and around eights and this sort 551 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: of stuff. Letteral honeys know a few examples of some 552 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: of your you know, more provocative and successful campaigns over 553 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: the years. Well, I love to remember the name of 554 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: the person Andre, the person who was our friend and hero. 555 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: He's the one like who was the leader and probably 556 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: like the initiator of this act UP inspired movement in Russia, 557 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: the movement to include people who use drugs into the 558 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: list of patients who can receive untrovital treatment. So in 559 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: let's say two thousand three, two thousand four, it was 560 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: two thousand five, it was still quite difficult for people 561 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: who use drugs, and there was many it was always 562 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: like eighty percent of all people with HIV in Russia, 563 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: but they could not get access to the red ReViral 564 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: treatment because they were considered like socially unreliable and so on. 565 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: And Andre Rikov and some other other our friends have 566 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: set up the Front AIDS movement, and that was the 567 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: like very bright movement which the guys changed themselves to 568 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: like the municipal buildings or to the Ministry of Health. 569 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: There was a huge banner in Moscow and there was 570 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: an action, you know when they came out to Saint 571 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: Petsburgh with the coffins and also attracting attention to the 572 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: tragedy of the AIDS, you know, of the ads that 573 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: could be prevented. So it was quite inspired movement the 574 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: Front AIDS in Russia. Andrekov died in two thousand and six. 575 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: He was also an activist, drug user and the great, 576 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: great inspiration for all of us um but he died 577 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: and in two thousand nine when we started our organization, 578 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: we decided to take his name and to continue his 579 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: create like drug user activists. He was activism. He was 580 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: a great inspiration. You know. Going back to these narcologists 581 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: right in their anti method on saying, I mean my 582 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: understanding is that they sometimes in place of methodon back 583 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: some really bizarre forms of drugs what they call drug 584 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: treatment al as sometimes it sounds to me more like torture. 585 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: Can you just say a little more about that well, 586 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: the drug treatment in Russia is really like um based 587 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: on the very old protocols, and the drug treatment in 588 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: Russia is organized in the way that the like the 589 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: medical part of drug treatment is controlled by the states, 590 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: so it's impossible to run a drug clinic if you're 591 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: not a state institution. So we have a system of 592 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: uh so called narcology drug treatment centers and drug treatment clinics, 593 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: but they are all run by the states, so basically 594 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: they work for the state. And there is a lot 595 00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: of more private or church or like religious groups based 596 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: rehabilitation centers, and unfortunately both of the systems are not effective. 597 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: So the state run system is based on well, as 598 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: we all ready discussed, we don't have a methodon or 599 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: orphan substitution treatment, so there is not really much that 600 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: the system can offer. Uh So they use the taxification 601 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: and sometimes they use yes, they do use like very 602 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: old protocols and some medicines that been all radios but 603 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: like how a paradol for example, that has been all 604 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: radio like uh not used even in the psychiatry, but 605 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: they use in the drug treatment protocol up to now. 606 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: But they're also the most cruelty you probably came from 607 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: the private rehabilitation center. I don't know if you remember 608 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: or if you've heard the story of the City Without 609 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,959 Speaker 1: Drugs in Euclidian book. It was a popular group book 610 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,720 Speaker 1: is a b exceeds a big industrial city about three 611 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: million people, I think in the bural in the euro mountains. 612 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: Uh So, in the beginning of Siberia, so there was 613 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: a group called City Without Drugs who started to fight 614 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: with the Roman people with ethnic minorities and with people 615 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: who used drugs, and they promised to clean up the 616 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: city with their owns, with their own means, and they 617 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: started to like kidnap people from their homes, sometimes prompted 618 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: by their parents who did not know what to do, 619 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: and people were kept on like in very tortuous conditions. 620 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 1: They were beaten up, and they were chained to beds 621 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: for like months without proper food, and it was considered 622 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: quite normal. I would say, it's not anymore. But back then, 623 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: in their earlier and mide A two thousand, it was 624 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: considered quite a reasonable approach to solving the drug problem. 625 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: And if you talk to like Russian people, they would say, yes, 626 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: of course, it's quite extreme to beat up and torture people, 627 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: and like chain them to bads, but you know it's 628 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: uh junkies, and they first have to become humans. And 629 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: to become humans, they have to go through all this 630 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,439 Speaker 1: like horrible, you know, all this horrible treatment, and this 631 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,439 Speaker 1: model it became quite popular. And I would say that 632 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: until now, kidnapping people from their homes, keeping them in 633 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: vivid tortures conditions, not providing them with medical treatment for 634 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: their I don't know, infectious diseases or any other diseases. 635 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: It's quite a norm. And there was like always an 636 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: attempt at the state to introduce some quality standards or 637 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: some safety guidance, guidance, and of course many of these 638 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: actions are illegal, like kidnapping people or like keeping them 639 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: against their will. But this model of so called the 640 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: abilitation it became like super popular in Russia and in 641 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: many cities. It's still like the wound their quote and 642 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 1: quote quote solution, like for familists who don't know what 643 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: to do with their children, and people would even pay 644 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: for their for their children to be tortured in this 645 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: you know, the abilitation centers. You know, I wish I 646 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 1: could say that, oh this is outrageous compared to America, 647 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: but you know, even United States. I mean, we had 648 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: these private organizations that there was one fairly notorious one, 649 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: I think based in Florida, and it was the same 650 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: thing you'd have, you know, upper middle class, somewhat wealthy 651 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: parents who were freaked out about their kids doing drugs. 652 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes the kids had real drug problems, sometimes it was 653 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: just you know, smoking too much wheat or something like that, 654 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: and they would pay to have them sent to these programs, 655 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: you know, these kind of tough kind of tough love 656 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: type things. And ultimately, you know, some people died in 657 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: these programs, and eventually they were shut down because they 658 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: were sued and things like that. Never I don't think 659 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: any criminal charges. But part of what gave it its 660 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,959 Speaker 1: staying power was that the founders was a couple named 661 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: Mel and Betty Sembler. Betty Sembler was one of the 662 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: leading kind of you know, kind of like anti drug 663 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: fanatics who should have just been dismissed as a kind 664 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: of you know, nutcase. But her husband, Mel happened to 665 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: be chairing the finance committee of the Republican National Committee, 666 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, appointed by I think Reagan or Bush to 667 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: the ambassador to Italy and to Australia, you know, he 668 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: could get any single you know, he could get the 669 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: White House out of phone call, he get any Republican senator, 670 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: and these guys were enormously politically powerful and able to 671 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: you know, semi legitimize this type of approach, you know, 672 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: in our own country. So America was not just you know, 673 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 1: exceeding Russia in terms of incarceration rates, but we were 674 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: also on somewhat in lockstep on some of these other 675 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: repressive approaches. Yeah, but I think America was the modal 676 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,760 Speaker 1: country where all this like you know, political campaigns based 677 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: on the war on drugs, and like toughness in the 678 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: war on drugs on this or that scale, built on 679 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: the scale of the nation or like on the local scale, 680 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: that became well, they proved themselves effective. If you are 681 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: against drugs by any means, then you will be popular. 682 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 1: And the same actually happened in the Utilian book. There 683 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: was the person behind all of this, Vgeny Roisman, who 684 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: became a super popular person. He was elected in the 685 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: state doom in the parliament, and he became the mayor 686 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 1: of your Catilian book exactly for torturing people and keeping 687 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: them in this reabilitation centers. So it's quite amazing. But 688 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: this approach, it has been super popular, so I think 689 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: it also inspired you know, other so called seal society 690 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: activists in a bad way to promote the same model 691 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: because they saw that they can also gain some political 692 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: weight from men. I see. You know, I only ask 693 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: you about on the policing side. I mean, you know, 694 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: you co authored an article some years ago with some 695 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: other scholars and such about the nature of drug policing 696 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: in Russia and pointing out not just how you know, 697 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: kind of vicious it could be, but how sometimes there 698 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: were oftentimes you know, even elements of torture um and 699 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: sometimes even fairly pervasively in terms of the way in 700 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: which police interacted with drug users, not just humiliating them 701 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: and beating them, but actually torturing them. It makes me 702 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: wonder when you look at something like the Philippines with 703 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: a president and democratically like the president do tirt Day 704 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 1: who basically encourages police around the country to go out 705 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: and literally kill people involved with that's amphetamine um and 706 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,720 Speaker 1: not just not just sellers, but oftentimes just simple users 707 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: as well. And you know where thousands, maybe tens of 708 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: thousands people have been killed, and where the president says 709 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: I'll protect you. I'll protect you, right. I mean what 710 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: keeps Putin from doing something like that? Could Putin do it? 711 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: Do turt day? Could he send out that word? Could 712 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: you see such a phenomenon happening in Russia? I think 713 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: is doing but just in a different way. And I 714 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: think the police they can pretty much do anything they want, 715 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: probably not kill people, but they don't need to. They 716 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: can just like send a person to prison or to 717 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: a camp and the person is very likely to die 718 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: of aids UH complications of tuberculosis, of overdoses on the 719 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: release from the camps. There is the whole system that 720 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: kills people for you. You don't need the police officer 721 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: to do it. But the police officers are definitely given 722 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: like impunity in treating people who use drugs. And like 723 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,800 Speaker 1: we reported on the tortures that are everyday routes seen normalized, 724 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 1: completely accepted tortures to those people who use drugs, women 725 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: who use drugs. The system is designed in a way 726 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: to kill a person and basically any sentence for drug 727 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: use becomes a death sentence. But also the system is 728 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: tortures through out, like from the first contact with the 729 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 1: medical service, from the first contact with the police, from 730 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: the first contact with other law enforcement. I don't know, 731 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: like courts and so on. People are going through humiliation, 732 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,919 Speaker 1: people are going through physical torture, people are going through 733 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 1: money extortion. People are just not treated, you know, women 734 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: getting deprived of their children. Like the whole system is tortures. 735 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: And we have been documenting it since the very beginning 736 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: of our work, and unfortunately, what we're seeing now in 737 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: Ukraine the tortures of peaceful civilians. Unfortunately, we've seen it before, 738 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: and we've been witnessing and documenting this on the fields 739 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: of the War on drugs in Russia since two thousand nine. Yeah, 740 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: I mean I was sort of one example, I guess 741 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: of what you see this is when when Russia sees 742 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: TREMEA from Ukraine in two thousand fourteen, and my understanding 743 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: is they basically just shut down all the method on 744 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: programs and within the space of a year. I don't know, 745 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,879 Speaker 1: it was a ten or of all the people during 746 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: these programs had had died when we or another yes, well, 747 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,239 Speaker 1: I think it was a thousand people at least who 748 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: were just basically kicked out on the street, and it 749 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: was a huge tragedy. For all of us. Our Ukrainian 750 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,800 Speaker 1: qualites could not believe that this is possible until the 751 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 1: very like last minute. They were, you know, writing to 752 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,399 Speaker 1: us and saying no, no, no, But we will write 753 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: to the World Health organizations, we will write to the UN, 754 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: we will write to the UN Program on Ease, and 755 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: they will talk to the Russian Minister of health. They 756 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: just don't know what's going on. You know that people 757 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,719 Speaker 1: are getting kicked out on the street and getting like 758 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 1: depride of of their medicine. But I was just so 759 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: amazed how the Ukrainian qualities believed that it's impossible to 760 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,399 Speaker 1: just do that to people. And I think that's why 761 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: I realized how different our mentality was. We were already 762 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: witnessing this evil for so many years, and we were 763 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: witnessing what was like happening with people. So two thousand fourteen, 764 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,720 Speaker 1: when like a thousand people were kicked out on the street, 765 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: it was just kind of normal for us, witnessing the 766 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: same thing every day for many years in Russia. And 767 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: of course it was a huge tragedy and many people, 768 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: like people did not get any support. They will promise support, 769 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: they will promise that they will be taken to Russia, 770 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: but even like to the rebilitation centers and so on, 771 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: and a few people were but a few people also 772 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: died in this like rebilitation programs in Russia, or like 773 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: they run away or it just never happened. So most 774 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: people are lost their treatment. And you are right that 775 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 1: about maybe ten percent of these people have died. We 776 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: don't know the precise estimates because of course the medical 777 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: specialists who had the contact before with their patients they 778 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: lost all contacts. Let's take a break here and go 779 00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: to an add you know, I mean, I have to say, 780 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe this is the American in me, but 781 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 1: I've also been a you know, a student of natural 782 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: relations for much of my adult life. Prudent has always 783 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: just struck me. I mean, I've been saying this for 784 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: twenty years. Is basically the world's greatest gangster, like the 785 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,960 Speaker 1: ultimate mafiosa kingpin in a way that he thinks that way, 786 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: his mentality is that way. It's not that that's also 787 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,360 Speaker 1: some broader, greater vision of greater Russia and all this 788 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: sort of stuff, and that helps to justify things. But 789 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 1: in terms of the tactics and mentality, on some level, 790 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: that seems to be the way he thinks, the way 791 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: he operates, and when you look at the people, I mean, 792 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 1: if you look, for example, the occupation Denza Lhands, it 793 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 1: almost just seems like he puts the gangsters in charge. 794 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: And if you look at Czechna once again, it's putting 795 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: in basically gangsters in charge. Just the idea of kind 796 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: of fusing gangsterism and governance in a way that's not 797 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,239 Speaker 1: unique to what prudence doing. It happens in other parts 798 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: of the world as well. The whole things sort of 799 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: seems of a piece and and maybe there's even an 800 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: element of that when one looks at the invasion of 801 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: Ukraine and you know, yes, the greater division of Greater 802 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: Russia and his claims that Ukraine was always part of 803 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,360 Speaker 1: Russia and it's part of the heart of Mother Russia. 804 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, the tactics and mentality and 805 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: the people he puts in charge. You know, I'm not 806 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: saying this about the Russian army, but on other levels, 807 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 1: a kind of gangster mentality that permeates things, and it 808 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 1: manifests obviously in drug policy and the way we've been 809 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: talking about, but maybe more globally as well. I don't know. 810 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: If you're totally free to speak about this, But are 811 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: there any thoughts and reflections and reactions to the way 812 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 1: I just laid that out well, Ethan, I think you 813 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,879 Speaker 1: laid it out perfectly. As a Russian citizen, I can 814 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: only say that Putin is the great leader of our 815 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: people and he will bring us to the final victory 816 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: of Putinism. Can I say anymore? Uh huh. So there's 817 00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: another question I wanted to ask you about. My understand 818 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: thing is that you know, after this home growing meth 819 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,479 Speaker 1: and opioids that that that you were talking about, would 820 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,839 Speaker 1: you call it, uh conca, the homemade opioid and then 821 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: the homemade meth amphetamine. But then it goes through a 822 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: period of heroin from Afghanistan coming through Central Asia being 823 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,239 Speaker 1: a major part of the problem. And then there's a 824 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,800 Speaker 1: more recent era a few years ago with the explosive 825 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: growth of the use of the Internet and the dark 826 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,279 Speaker 1: net and the website hydra it seems to play a 827 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 1: major role in changing drug markets. Also the telegram messenger 828 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: another thing, So just tell us about, you know, how 829 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 1: that has changed the drug situation, illicit drug situation in Russia. 830 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 1: It is amazing how Russia has like completely, well maybe 831 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: not completely, but majorly switched to the dark web technologies 832 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,280 Speaker 1: in terms of like the selling drugs. And that's probably 833 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,399 Speaker 1: a happened mostly in like major cities, but in other 834 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: cities as well. I mean, Hydro was a huge market 835 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,120 Speaker 1: that governed not only Russia but also like other Russian 836 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,880 Speaker 1: speaking countries, maybe to a less extent, but in Russia, 837 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 1: I would say, especially like in Moscow. At some point 838 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: it became impossible to all, very difficult to buy drugs 839 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 1: in any other way other than through this UH market. 840 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: And as you know, Hydro has been recently shut down 841 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: by the German and American services. That happened just last week. 842 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,440 Speaker 1: And we don't know how the system will adjust because 843 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,319 Speaker 1: for many many years Hydra and the large market before that, 844 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,279 Speaker 1: it was the main kind of platform for drug like 845 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,960 Speaker 1: the drug purchases. But how it will change now we 846 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: don't know. But yes, you are right, it has completely 847 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: changed the way UH that Russian people have at least 848 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,520 Speaker 1: procure drug and drugs. And I don't know if your 849 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 1: listeners have heard about like this whole ethnography of the 850 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: you know treasures and so basically when you purchase drugs 851 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: on HYDRA you purchase with the cryptocurrency and you get 852 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: a location in return, so you don't get your drugs 853 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: by mail, but you get the geolocation, and then you 854 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: have to go to this geolocation and find the treasure, 855 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: and that can be like nearer to your house, but 856 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 1: that can be also very far. And the restories about 857 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,600 Speaker 1: like people going through cemeteries like in the middle of winter, 858 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 1: or like you know, forests and having to dig in 859 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:43,240 Speaker 1: the snow. I don't know, like half meter meter treasures. 860 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,880 Speaker 1: So it's a lot of like folklore about hydra and 861 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: about the way the rush market operates operated until now. 862 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 1: We don't know what will happen, but yes, it was 863 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: quite an amazing I think phenomenon, well, if you have 864 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,520 Speaker 1: a darkness source likeness, it can evolve all sorts of 865 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,880 Speaker 1: other things that an autocratic government like you have in 866 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,000 Speaker 1: Russia doesn't want happening. And so you would think that 867 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 1: an autocratic government would see this is something of a threat, 868 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 1: a kind of Russian language darknet source, and that therefore, 869 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I only can speculate that it's 870 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: only allowed to persist because security agencies have some understanding 871 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 1: um about what's going on there. Or what will be tolerated. 872 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,520 Speaker 1: But you say there's no evidence one or the other. Really, yeah, 873 00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting because the Russian like official retric 874 00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:39,120 Speaker 1: they always target that the Internet and even putting a 875 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,080 Speaker 1: couple of years ago he talked about the danger of 876 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:46,320 Speaker 1: like drugs, the drugs are sold on the Internet, so 877 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,799 Speaker 1: we could never figure out was there in confusion and 878 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,239 Speaker 1: why they focused on the Internet and the way like 879 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,280 Speaker 1: it happened that they focused on the information about drugs 880 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 1: or information on harm aduction rather than the darknet where 881 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,239 Speaker 1: the drugs actually were. Nobody just sold drugs on internet. 882 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 1: So it's interesting, yes, but it's not clear and the 883 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:15,960 Speaker 1: picture is completely What's interesting also about about the shift 884 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: of illicit drug markets from the streets to the darknet. 885 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,960 Speaker 1: And obviously it's not a one to one switch, and 886 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,279 Speaker 1: people can be buying some drugs and bulk on the 887 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,799 Speaker 1: darknet and then distributing them on the streets as well, 888 00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,320 Speaker 1: but there's also interesting harm reduction potential in a variety 889 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,600 Speaker 1: of ways when drugs sales shift to the darkness. I mean, 890 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: one is the fact that you don't have the problems 891 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,239 Speaker 1: with you know, selling drugs on the street, which can 892 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,799 Speaker 1: be disruptive of communities, not just in Russia, but I'm 893 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,040 Speaker 1: thinking even more, you know, the Western world as well. 894 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,920 Speaker 1: A second thing is that the extent that you have 895 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,000 Speaker 1: people writing reviews and the products here getting, there's the 896 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 1: opportunity to post information about what these drugs are, and 897 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,319 Speaker 1: maybe it put a higher level of reliability in terms 898 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: of what the drug suppliers and what consumers are getting. 899 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:07,000 Speaker 1: And so I'm curious, I mean, how to harm reduction organizations, 900 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, I mean yours and your meditran action, the 901 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 1: fielders that exist, how did they perceive the ups and 902 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 1: downs of Hydra and Telegram and all that in terms 903 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:20,040 Speaker 1: of the evolution of drug markets. Well, I must acknowledge 904 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:24,360 Speaker 1: that Hydra did good harm reduction work themselves. I should 905 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:29,720 Speaker 1: tell you one thing that fantanil was never available on Hydra, 906 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 1: or it was available maybe in the very very beginning, 907 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 1: but then they just prohibited the cell of fantanil in 908 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,759 Speaker 1: their shops on the market. So fantanial epidemic did not 909 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: touch Russia because it was prohibited by Hydra themselves. And 910 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,319 Speaker 1: they also had like even the harm aduction facility, well 911 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,399 Speaker 1: they didn't call harm aduction facilities, but they have had 912 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 1: drug testing, so they would randomly like test and publish 913 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,279 Speaker 1: the results of the purchase on their reviews. And they 914 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,879 Speaker 1: even had like a drug treatment narcology doctor consulting people, 915 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:12,399 Speaker 1: like a hotline for drug issues. They organized themselves as well. 916 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:16,120 Speaker 1: So there was someone or I don't know, like maybe 917 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,480 Speaker 1: a community of thought behind this interventions. But the fact 918 00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 1: that we did not have a fantonial epidemic, I think 919 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,400 Speaker 1: it's a really huge thing, and that was due to 920 00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:33,360 Speaker 1: the harm reduction measures implemented on hydra. Well, let me 921 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,840 Speaker 1: ask you another question and also a theory of mine. 922 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,719 Speaker 1: I don't have anything to prove it, but in some 923 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:44,360 Speaker 1: respects Russia is really the great colonial empire of the 924 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,080 Speaker 1: twentieth century. You know, Colonialism was something we associated with 925 00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,359 Speaker 1: with France and England and a few of the Dutch 926 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: European countries in really the seventeenth eighteenth nineteenth century, and 927 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,240 Speaker 1: really colonialism for Russia, I think, maybe especially the twentieth 928 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:02,719 Speaker 1: century Andrews Soviet Union, where you have significant migrations of 929 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:08,279 Speaker 1: Russian you know, ethnic Russians into other of the Soviet republics. 930 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: And then this comes here's the part of my theory 931 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,359 Speaker 1: that gets down to the drug piece here that when 932 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union crumbles thirty years ago and you have 933 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,879 Speaker 1: these Russians speaking minorities left in many of these now 934 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,360 Speaker 1: independent countries. And I'm thinking here especially of the Baltics, 935 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: you know a lot of the Lithuania, Estonia, but maybe 936 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,200 Speaker 1: it's true elsewhere as well. And my perception has been 937 00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,279 Speaker 1: that sometimes the drug problems and injecting drug problems that 938 00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,600 Speaker 1: emerged are worse among the Russians speaking minorities in these 939 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,799 Speaker 1: countries than among others. And my theory is is that 940 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: this is a group of people whose grandfathers and even 941 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,760 Speaker 1: parents had been in a relatively privileged position in these countries, 942 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,839 Speaker 1: in the Baltics and maybe some others, and now they 943 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: are in a kind of disprivileged now as Russian speakers, 944 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,840 Speaker 1: sometimes not even speaking of the national language Estonia, Lithuanian, Latvian, 945 00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 1: or maybe in other countries, that they are now worse off, 946 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,640 Speaker 1: you know, whereas their fathers and grandparents had been better off, 947 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,760 Speaker 1: now they're worse off. And maybe that helps explain higher 948 00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,719 Speaker 1: rates of drug problems among the Russian speaking minorities. What 949 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 1: do you think of my theory? Yes, for sure, especially 950 00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,560 Speaker 1: in the Baltic I mean, I've been involved in some research, 951 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,400 Speaker 1: especially in Estonia and in some like Russian regions of 952 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:30,160 Speaker 1: Estonia are in the earlier two thousands, and definitely the 953 00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,160 Speaker 1: Russian population was very facted because they lost the jobs 954 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,840 Speaker 1: and they lost the citizens rights, and they they became 955 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 1: like the most marginalized economically group. And of course this 956 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,680 Speaker 1: group in some of the regions, or especially in the 957 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,440 Speaker 1: Baltic countries, they became very very affected by the drug 958 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:52,040 Speaker 1: problems and by the HIV epidemic. So, you know, I 959 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,480 Speaker 1: haven't really asked you about how you got involved in 960 00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: all of this. Why. I mean, were you you yourself 961 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,400 Speaker 1: an active drug user and got caught up in the 962 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,600 Speaker 1: way many people get caught up in harm reduction or 963 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,240 Speaker 1: was it in another way, I mean, what brought you 964 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,680 Speaker 1: to this. I was never a systematic drug user, I 965 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:14,400 Speaker 1: would say, or I never had like major problems with drugs. 966 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,280 Speaker 1: But I got involved because my friends. I was just, 967 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, really interested in this work that my friends 968 00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:28,400 Speaker 1: got involved in the work of the doctors without boards. 969 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,040 Speaker 1: Do you remember the American photographer Jean Raynard who spent 970 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: a lot of time in I don't know if you've 971 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,880 Speaker 1: seen his work, but he was an an amazing person 972 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,320 Speaker 1: who spent a lot of time in Russia, and he 973 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:45,680 Speaker 1: was really looking at the beginning of the HIV epidemic 974 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: and at the time when the injunction drug use suddenly 975 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,160 Speaker 1: became very very popular, and he was the one who 976 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,560 Speaker 1: linked the medicine some frontiers back then with the community 977 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 1: of people who use drugs in Moscow, and so my 978 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 1: friends and me we were part of one of these communities. 979 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,160 Speaker 1: They got involved and I got very interested in this work, 980 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,480 Speaker 1: and then I got to meet like quite amazing people 981 00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,520 Speaker 1: through like this collaboration in the first outreach project, and 982 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:18,200 Speaker 1: it just became quite and fascinating and amazing past for me. 983 00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't have a career back then, and 984 00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,800 Speaker 1: it seemed to me like a very very very fascinating 985 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,080 Speaker 1: and interesting things to be involved in. So that's how 986 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,360 Speaker 1: I got involved. And of course a lot of my 987 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 1: friends were affected because yes, there were young people and 988 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,800 Speaker 1: a lot of young people were using drugs, and a 989 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 1: lot of people were using drugs problem magically, and a 990 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:42,480 Speaker 1: lot of people will radio dying and that affected me 991 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,960 Speaker 1: personally as well. And when you were still living in 992 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,600 Speaker 1: Russia before you moved to the other winds. I mean, 993 00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,360 Speaker 1: were there moments where you were really afraid for your 994 00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 1: safety or ter getting arrested? Yeah, well we were. We 995 00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,600 Speaker 1: were always afraid. I mean I felt its safe until 996 00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,760 Speaker 1: like two thousand nine when I work for international organizations 997 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,680 Speaker 1: and later for like the Russian Harmeduction Network. But when 998 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,320 Speaker 1: we started our own Russian Harmeduction Network was was also 999 01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,600 Speaker 1: like a big and show that provided support mostly from 1000 01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,800 Speaker 1: the Global Fund to the Russian community of like this 1001 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:22,360 Speaker 1: harm auction enthusiasts. But like starting in two thousand nine 1002 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,840 Speaker 1: when we started to work, when we started to hand 1003 01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,520 Speaker 1: out needles on the streets of Moscow, we were afraid 1004 01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,080 Speaker 1: because like the Moscow government was against and they were 1005 01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,760 Speaker 1: like measures against needlands Nage program, you know, the civil 1006 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,480 Speaker 1: society activists like that, for example, the uh guys from 1007 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:42,960 Speaker 1: the City without Drugs which has also it branched in Moscow, 1008 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,760 Speaker 1: and it was always like quite scary, and they must say, 1009 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,760 Speaker 1: the people I work with are like real heroes in 1010 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,640 Speaker 1: this regard. So basically we decided our strategy already back 1011 01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,640 Speaker 1: then and like up to now, is that we decided that, 1012 01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:00,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we have to do this work. I and 1013 01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,120 Speaker 1: we see the people, you know, I mean, we know 1014 01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,720 Speaker 1: the miracle of harm reduction. We see that people are suffering, 1015 01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,000 Speaker 1: and we know how to provide tools for people to 1016 01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,200 Speaker 1: suffer less. So we have to do this work. We 1017 01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,200 Speaker 1: have to serve our community. Of course it's scary, and 1018 01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,960 Speaker 1: of course they are like always like so many dangerous. 1019 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,520 Speaker 1: But then I mean we decided, okay, I mean we 1020 01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,640 Speaker 1: will just keep working until it's possible, and we are 1021 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:31,960 Speaker 1: adjusting our you know, safety measures, We are adjusting our communications, 1022 01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 1: we are adjusting our work. Every day. Were like very well, 1023 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,680 Speaker 1: trying to be as careful as it's possible in these conditions, 1024 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:44,560 Speaker 1: given that we are dealing with very, very controversial issue. No, 1025 01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:46,720 Speaker 1: I mean it's when you see what put In saying 1026 01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,160 Speaker 1: now about an ever broadening minority of Russians, you know, 1027 01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:54,200 Speaker 1: those who don't fully support the cause. It does seem 1028 01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:58,360 Speaker 1: like he's basically taking the prototype that that that the 1029 01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:02,160 Speaker 1: targeting of drug users and people involved with illicit drugs 1030 01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,360 Speaker 1: really became a model for a broader targeting or broader 1031 01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,640 Speaker 1: sector of society who did not want to go along 1032 01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,160 Speaker 1: with his vision or it. And I can tell you more. 1033 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,840 Speaker 1: You know, the first word he used in his public 1034 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,800 Speaker 1: speech after the war started towards Ukrainian the first that 1035 01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:24,640 Speaker 1: he called them was Kaman. So it's absolutely I mean, 1036 01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:29,560 Speaker 1: the same rhetoric is the same dehumanization that is used 1037 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,240 Speaker 1: by propaganda, first propaganda of the war on drugs. Yeah, 1038 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,720 Speaker 1: I mean it seems I remember thirty years ago when 1039 01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,919 Speaker 1: with the downfall of the Romanian dictator Cichsco exact same thing, 1040 01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,120 Speaker 1: and there's been so many other leaders who have done 1041 01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,080 Speaker 1: the same thing using the accusation of drugs. Exactly. The 1042 01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,760 Speaker 1: cold person a junkie is the first step to dehumanize 1043 01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,400 Speaker 1: the person. After that you can do whatever you want 1044 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,120 Speaker 1: with the person. The person is not considered a human 1045 01:02:55,160 --> 01:03:00,480 Speaker 1: being or just a junkie, then they deserve everything. And 1046 01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,760 Speaker 1: you have the feeling if you have a real, true 1047 01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,640 Speaker 1: public opinion in Poland Russia and ask what should be done, 1048 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:07,840 Speaker 1: you know with a million or two million, or three 1049 01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 1: million or whatever it is drugs five millions, that some 1050 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:17,680 Speaker 1: substantial minority, if not a majority, might just say kill them. Well, 1051 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,560 Speaker 1: I would say that We've been doing a lot of 1052 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,000 Speaker 1: work with the mass media, and we had a lot 1053 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,920 Speaker 1: of partners in Ourncaphobia project, where we tried to challenge 1054 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,840 Speaker 1: the you know, drug war propaganda, and we tried to 1055 01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,240 Speaker 1: challenge the stigma of drugs. And I would say that 1056 01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:39,400 Speaker 1: in the recent years, maybe like eight, nine, ten years, 1057 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:43,280 Speaker 1: the attitude has started to change and people are more 1058 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:48,280 Speaker 1: critical towards this concept of dehumanizing a human being because 1059 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: the human being is you know, using drugs. So it 1060 01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,320 Speaker 1: becomes more and more obvious for people that this doesn't 1061 01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:58,840 Speaker 1: work anymore. And now I think people understand more and 1062 01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:03,320 Speaker 1: more that policy can be humane. Drug policy can be 1063 01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:07,120 Speaker 1: based on protection of health, on protection of people, dignity 1064 01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,480 Speaker 1: of human rights. Drug policy does not have to be 1065 01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,080 Speaker 1: based on like military or police action. It does not 1066 01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:18,160 Speaker 1: have to destroy people's lives. Uh. And there is more 1067 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:21,600 Speaker 1: and one standing in the Russian society, in the public 1068 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:26,080 Speaker 1: that you know, there are more effective and more more 1069 01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,960 Speaker 1: humane approaches to these issues than the war on drugs 1070 01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,040 Speaker 1: and especially the form of the world on drugs that 1071 01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,959 Speaker 1: we have in Russia. I remember, you know, decades ago, 1072 01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,760 Speaker 1: when people would play out, well, you know, one benefit 1073 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,520 Speaker 1: of a closed society and closed borders is that they 1074 01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:43,800 Speaker 1: don't have much of a drug problem in Russia. And 1075 01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,440 Speaker 1: my response would be that Russia's problem, it's health problem 1076 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:53,240 Speaker 1: with alcohol was greater than the accumulative problem with alcohol 1077 01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,280 Speaker 1: and all illusive drugs put together in the US or 1078 01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,720 Speaker 1: almost any other country. And I wonder, I mean, you know, 1079 01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,439 Speaker 1: alcohol is just seen in Russia as part of the 1080 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:06,640 Speaker 1: national tradition and put an entirely different category, right, I 1081 01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,560 Speaker 1: mean there's that mentality of alcohol being a drug just 1082 01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:14,040 Speaker 1: like these other drugs. Is that still a fundamentally alien 1083 01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,960 Speaker 1: idea in Russia? Well? Yeah, I think it's still like 1084 01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,240 Speaker 1: a very challenging to make this cognity of kind of 1085 01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:27,240 Speaker 1: jump from like treating alcohol as something completely like else 1086 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:32,000 Speaker 1: to feeding alcohol as a category of drugs or like substances, 1087 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,720 Speaker 1: psychoactive substances. And I think it's because, yes, I mean, 1088 01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,760 Speaker 1: you're right, alcohol is very much in like Russian tradition, 1089 01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:42,120 Speaker 1: uh traditional drug. I don't know what to call it, 1090 01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:46,160 Speaker 1: but yes, it's also because of the Soviet history and 1091 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,920 Speaker 1: because of the post Soviet history a little bit. But 1092 01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,680 Speaker 1: people don't understand that alcohol can be a harder drug 1093 01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,320 Speaker 1: than a drug drug. So it's really difficult to explain that. No, 1094 01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:02,840 Speaker 1: if actually you're regulate Arthur drugs, it may be easier. 1095 01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,960 Speaker 1: It's because they're not worse than alcohol. Alcohol is the worst, 1096 01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,440 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the worst drugs and the hardest 1097 01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:13,800 Speaker 1: drugs that we have. Uh So it's really difficult for 1098 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:18,800 Speaker 1: people to believe that alcohol, well it's almost like the 1099 01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,960 Speaker 1: hardest drug we have. And where is cannabis fit into 1100 01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,040 Speaker 1: the whole picture? Is it something where there's a more 1101 01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,600 Speaker 1: relaxed fiel with it. Well, I think that cannabis is 1102 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,120 Speaker 1: I mean, like there was a cannabis like local cannabis 1103 01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:34,560 Speaker 1: production traditionally in Russia. If you look at the law, 1104 01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,000 Speaker 1: it's still like, you know, in the same category as 1105 01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:43,680 Speaker 1: other prohibited drugs, but maybe culturally it's like class sigma 1106 01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:47,680 Speaker 1: as I speak. I remember like some kind of jokes 1107 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,600 Speaker 1: or not caphobic jokes that I made about cannabis smokers 1108 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:55,000 Speaker 1: and some slur words that I used for them. So 1109 01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,760 Speaker 1: of course it's like ambivalent. I would say that alcohol 1110 01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,960 Speaker 1: badly stands out as a like separate kind of substance 1111 01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,000 Speaker 1: that is treated differently from all the drugs. But I 1112 01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:10,000 Speaker 1: mean there wore some attempts to like push for marijuana 1113 01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: legalization or even lately by the state you know, officials, 1114 01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:19,440 Speaker 1: to discuss or bring up the issue of medical Mirijuana 1115 01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,200 Speaker 1: suddenly in the press. But there was never a huge 1116 01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:27,720 Speaker 1: movement for legalization of marijuana in Russia for some reason. 1117 01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:31,600 Speaker 1: So even like in the more open times, there was 1118 01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:35,080 Speaker 1: some movement, and there was some protests and marijuana marshas 1119 01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,640 Speaker 1: were organized in Moscow for several years, but it was 1120 01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:43,040 Speaker 1: not like strong, strong movement. Well and you listen, thank 1121 01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:46,240 Speaker 1: you so very very much for taking the time to 1122 01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,400 Speaker 1: talk to me on Psychoactive. I wish you all the best. 1123 01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,040 Speaker 1: I wish you the best for your country and that 1124 01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:54,960 Speaker 1: things may turn in a more positive direction, you know, 1125 01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:57,720 Speaker 1: not just for the situation of drug users in Russia, 1126 01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,320 Speaker 1: but for the rest of the population as else. So 1127 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:02,520 Speaker 1: thank you for your work, your amazing work over all 1128 01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,280 Speaker 1: these many years, um and for the work that you'll 1129 01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,200 Speaker 1: do in the future. Thank you, Eaton. Thank you so 1130 01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,800 Speaker 1: much for inviting me to speak. I mean, I'm always 1131 01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,760 Speaker 1: like the most depressing guest at the table, and I 1132 01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,040 Speaker 1: hope that at some point we will also be able 1133 01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:22,839 Speaker 1: to discuss amazing development and drop pol city form happening 1134 01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,800 Speaker 1: in passion. That would be wonderful. Thank you very much, 1135 01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:34,800 Speaker 1: that's my greatest hope. Thank you, even if you're enjoying Psychoactive. 1136 01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:37,720 Speaker 1: Please tell your friends about it, or you can write 1137 01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,280 Speaker 1: us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 1138 01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:43,439 Speaker 1: your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If 1139 01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,400 Speaker 1: you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas, 1140 01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,559 Speaker 1: then leave us a message at one eight three three 1141 01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:56,040 Speaker 1: seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, 1142 01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,000 Speaker 1: or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com, 1143 01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:03,559 Speaker 1: or find me on Twitter at Ethan Naedleman. You can 1144 01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:07,760 Speaker 1: also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is 1145 01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:11,320 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's 1146 01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:15,400 Speaker 1: hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noam Osband 1147 01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,799 Speaker 1: and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 1148 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,240 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams 1149 01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:27,439 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. 1150 01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,679 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 1151 01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,519 Speaker 1: to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. 1152 01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,800 Speaker 1: Next week I'll be talking with the comedian Adam Strauss, 1153 01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,360 Speaker 1: who created a wonderful play called The Mushroom Cure, in 1154 01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,080 Speaker 1: which he talks about using psychedelics to cure his O 1155 01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,920 Speaker 1: c D. My own psych get experiences. Humor and laughter 1156 01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:05,599 Speaker 1: is such a central part of them. To be very specific, 1157 01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,679 Speaker 1: I mean the way I've laughed. I'm mushrooms particularly, and 1158 01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:11,479 Speaker 1: and Sasha Shulgin talks about and something of peak all 1159 01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:14,120 Speaker 1: this or INTI call this trip to mean laugh. It 1160 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,640 Speaker 1: does seem to be a fairly intimate um and I 1161 01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,080 Speaker 1: think personally a non trivial connection between psychedelics and laughter. 1162 01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:24,400 Speaker 1: To me, one of the one of the many powerful 1163 01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,599 Speaker 1: things about laughter is there something humbling about it. When 1164 01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,679 Speaker 1: you're laughing, you're basically there's an element of surprise, something 1165 01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,840 Speaker 1: you didn't see coming. And I don't think it's too 1166 01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:37,080 Speaker 1: far a reach to say that there is In the 1167 01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,320 Speaker 1: best jokes, there's sort of a mind expanding element where 1168 01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,080 Speaker 1: you see a possibility or a connection that you didn't 1169 01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:46,840 Speaker 1: previously see. And it's that that snap moment of recognition 1170 01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:51,280 Speaker 1: and connection that elicits the laugh. Subscribe to cycleactive now 1171 01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:52,200 Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.