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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and.

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Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

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Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hi Paul, Hi, Kate.

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Speaker 1: How's it going.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing good. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. This is a very special day because

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Speaker 1: my mom turns eighty.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I have.

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Speaker 1: A mom who's eighty. It's amazing. I'm so grateful for

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Speaker 1: that too. She is so incredibly important. She's a big

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Speaker 1: fan of the show and of yours, Paul, so I

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Speaker 1: wanted to wish her a happy birthday because she is

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Speaker 1: a really wonderful woman. I know that I poke fun

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Speaker 1: in her sometimes on this show, but I just adore

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Speaker 1: her and she really is someone who likes to talk

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Speaker 1: about true crime. She listens to all these different podcasts.

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Speaker 1: I don't even think mine's the favorite. I think she's

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Speaker 1: got some other favorites. So I wanted to wish her

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Speaker 1: a happy birthday.

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Speaker 2: Well what's her first name?

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Speaker 1: Lynn. She's a beautiful redhead who does not look eighty

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Speaker 1: at all. I'm not sure what eighty looks like typically,

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Speaker 1: but she is lively and in good shape. And yes,

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Speaker 1: she's great and a huge, huge true crime fan.

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Speaker 2: Well, Hi, Lynn, I'm wishing you a happy birthday.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, that made her day. I'm sure, Paul,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure she can't believe that this is what I

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Speaker 1: do for a living. And then she gets to hear

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Speaker 1: my voice. I suspect she thinks she already hears my

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Speaker 1: voice enough. I mean I talk to her every day.

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Speaker 1: I see her all the time. And actually I've been

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Speaker 1: spending the night sometimes. You know, if one of my kids,

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Speaker 1: you know, wants to have a sleepover, I'll spend the

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Speaker 1: night at their house. So it's weird to kind of

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Speaker 1: be in my own bedroom, my old bedroom growing up,

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Speaker 1: because they live in the same house where I grew up.

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Speaker 1: They've had it for fifty years. They've had that house.

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Speaker 1: I'm with one of the girls in, you know, a

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Speaker 1: bed that I used to sleep in, and it's very surreal.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, you know, I don't because I was a

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Speaker 2: military brat, I don't have anything like that. I moved

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Speaker 2: around all over the place.

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Speaker 1: So what do you do? Is there anything that you

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Speaker 1: bring with you when you guys move, I know, you

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Speaker 1: know in California and then you move to Colorado or

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Speaker 1: you just re establish everywhere, and you don't have a

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Speaker 1: piece of furniture or anything that really makes you feel settled.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, of course, as I've moved around as

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Speaker 2: an adult, you know, I've kept the furniture from one

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Speaker 2: location to another and just moved it with me, and

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Speaker 2: you know, acquired other things, and I have various objects

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Speaker 2: from my childhood that I've kept with me. But in

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Speaker 2: terms of actually a house, you know, I've been I've

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Speaker 2: lived in too many different places, you know, so I

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Speaker 2: don't have necessarily like what you've got where I would

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Speaker 2: go back in and go, oh, this is this is

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Speaker 2: home from my childhood. Nothing like that exists for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have those memories, which for some people,

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Speaker 1: you know, a house can be wonderful and some people

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Speaker 1: it can be awful, depending on how you grew up.

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Speaker 1: And I was lucky to have a good childhood. And

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Speaker 1: then you know, there's the farm, what I call the farm,

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Speaker 1: which is where my dad lived with my stepmother. The

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Speaker 1: one that I said is haunted. I believe very much

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Speaker 1: as haunted. So I'm very attached to both my mother

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Speaker 1: and the house. And so it's nice to have them,

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Speaker 1: you know, that close by. So it's you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a great experience. And so my mom is a wonderful woman,

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Speaker 1: and so I wanted to give her a really good

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Speaker 1: shout out and thank you for showing my mom some love.

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Speaker 2: I hope to reach age eighty. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh boy. And she is just as smart as

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Speaker 1: a whip, and she's really wonderful. This is a family

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Speaker 1: story that I'm getting ready to tell you. So in journalism,

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Speaker 1: when I say family story, and I'm sort of a

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Speaker 1: general reporter, usually people go, oh, great, what's the feeling.

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Speaker 1: That must be great? And in true crime, when I

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Speaker 1: say family story, oftentimes it's terrible. And this one is

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Speaker 1: a terrible family story, unfortunately, which is a mixture of

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Speaker 1: restaurant life and Southern style and a little bit of magic.

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Speaker 1: So let me just jump into it, and let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and set the scene. So the central character of

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Speaker 1: this story is a lively woman named Ajet Lyles, and

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Speaker 1: she is make in Georgia. I love this southern Gothic setting,

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Speaker 1: so I think that this is going to be a

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Speaker 1: really interesting one. So Angett is at the center of this.

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Speaker 1: She is an only child of a very prominent local

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Speaker 1: couple that run a produce store, so she's already sort

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Speaker 1: of I think, destined to be involved in the food industry.

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Speaker 1: But here's some interesting descriptions. And I have not told

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Speaker 1: you if she's a victim or a killer or whoever

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Speaker 1: in this story. But the newspaper reports, when this story

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Speaker 1: really catches hold of the media, describe her in what

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Speaker 1: I think are some interesting ways. Okay, good looking, we're

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Speaker 1: used to with women. That's the first thing they focus on,

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Speaker 1: which is the stupidest thing ever. Charismatic, a people person,

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Speaker 1: she was very charming. And then they also say the

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Speaker 1: newspaper reports say that Ajett was an unremarkable student. And

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Speaker 1: I highlighted this because I thought, who cares? What is

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Speaker 1: the point have you read things like that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do you think that these sort of adjectives, whether

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Speaker 1: the person is a victim or or a murderer, unremarkable student?

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Speaker 1: What does that mean that she would not be a

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Speaker 1: brilliant killer? Or is that it's no big loss if

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Speaker 1: she's the victim you.

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Speaker 2: Will Yeah, it's kind of hard to determine what the

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Speaker 2: writer's intent by using that description would be. You know,

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Speaker 2: on one hand, learning as much as possible about the victim.

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Speaker 2: How old is.

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Speaker 1: She she is at the time? I would say kind

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Speaker 1: of the central part of this story. She's in her

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Speaker 1: early twenties, so she's twenty two, twenty three.

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Speaker 2: So she's not like still in high school now? Or

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Speaker 2: is she a college student?

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Speaker 1: No, not a college student. She's about to get married

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty seven to a man who owns a restaurant.

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Speaker 2: So to use that descriptor for somebody who's not even

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Speaker 2: a student at this point in her life does seem

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Speaker 2: odd I'm not sure what the intent is there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, maybe we'll be able to figure it out.

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen forty seven, as I mentioned, and Jet

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Speaker 1: is twenty two years old, and she meets a man

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Speaker 1: named Ben Les Junior, and Ben is running his family

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Speaker 1: restaurant in downtown Macon and before long and Jet, when

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Speaker 1: they get married, is working beside him. And they seem,

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Speaker 1: you know, a pretty obvious pairing because they're both from

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Speaker 1: well established local families. They seem happy. She's been in

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Speaker 1: the produce business, he's in the restaurant business, and they

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Speaker 1: both enjoy running the restaurant. She is again the newspapers

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Speaker 1: always like to play up looks. She's very charming and beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and they say so beautiful that she is luring in customers,

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Speaker 1: which makes it sound very tawdry, but it's not. I mean,

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Speaker 1: people go to this restaurant because the food's good, and

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Speaker 1: they think that the hostess slash owner is great to

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Speaker 1: look at and great to talk to. She is said

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Speaker 1: to have been able to easily placate their most difficult clientele.

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Speaker 1: So she sounds like a great person to be around.

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Speaker 1: But by mid century Southern standards, and Jet is a

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Speaker 1: little bit eccentric. She you know, on the outside, she's

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Speaker 1: very warm and hospitable. She's a former beauty queen, but

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Speaker 1: she does some things that people think are odd. She

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Speaker 1: goes to fortune tellers she is interested in learning about

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Speaker 1: spells and magic, and the restaurant workers have caught her

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Speaker 1: several times burning ceremonial candles and speaking to the flames.

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Speaker 1: So I am not going to get into a discussion

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Speaker 1: about whether magic is real or not, or about the

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Speaker 1: philosophy behind it. I am just introducing this information because

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Speaker 1: I think it gives us a little bit more detail

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Speaker 1: on either the criminal profile of her or the victimology

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Speaker 1: of her. That this is someone who believes in something

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Speaker 1: other than it sounds like a traditional, structured, you know, religion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, any aspect of the victim's life could have contributed

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Speaker 2: to whatever crime we're going to be discussing, you know,

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Speaker 2: coming up. So understanding that you know, she has this

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Speaker 2: successful business, that's part of it. Understand that she has

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Speaker 2: for the time some eccentricities, you know, that could draw

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Speaker 2: some bad attention her way, depending on you know, who

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Speaker 2: runs across her path and what their life philosophies are.

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Speaker 2: So it's just learning all of this, you know. So

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Speaker 2: however this plays out, you know, for me, it's just

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Speaker 2: something I tuck away. It may have nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with whatever happens, but it could have something to do

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Speaker 2: with it. So it's good to know.

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Speaker 1: Good tuck it away, because I do think we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to talk about it later. So and Jed

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Speaker 1: and beIN, as I said, seemed to have a good

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Speaker 1: time running the restaurant together. Pretty soon they have two kids.

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Speaker 1: They have a little girl named Marcy, who's born in

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Speaker 1: forty eight, so about a year after they got married,

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Speaker 1: and then Carla, who was born three years later. And

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Speaker 1: Jeta's still very young, she's twenty five and under here,

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Speaker 1: you know, during these things that happen. But in nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty one, right after the birth of Carla, who is

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Speaker 1: the youngest, Ben starts to experience a very sharp declas

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Speaker 1: in his health, feeling bad to a point where he

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Speaker 1: doesn't even tell in Jet that he puts the restaurant

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Speaker 1: on the market, which really ticks her off. Even though

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Speaker 1: he's sick and doesn't feel well. She does not understand

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Speaker 1: why he would want to get rid of the family business.

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Speaker 1: But he says, I just I can't do it, and

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Speaker 1: she says I can do it on my own, and

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Speaker 1: he says, no, you can't, And he puts the restaurant

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Speaker 1: on the market, and his condition just never improves, and

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Speaker 1: on January twenty fifth, nineteen fifty two, Ben Lyles dies

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Speaker 1: at a local hospital. The hospital, the doctors are really

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Speaker 1: struggling with this because he seems to have died from

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Speaker 1: an illness that they don't quite know one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: that they could diagnose. Eventually. His death certificate says that

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Speaker 1: he died from encephalitis. I don't know much about encephalitis.

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Speaker 1: So what would those symptoms even be that we can

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Speaker 1: expect to hear that Ben was experiencing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know encephalitis again, and this is a

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Speaker 2: general term, but it's an inflammation, and you know, somebody

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Speaker 2: who has severe encephalitis, you're dealing with headache, fevers, stiff neck,

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Speaker 2: you know, confusion, you know, possibly even hallucinations. It can

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Speaker 2: be very quickly life threatening depending on how severe it is.

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Speaker 2: But again there's multiple things such as a viral encephalitis.

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Speaker 2: There's potentially a bacteria that could cause it. Right now,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like they really don't know what the true

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Speaker 2: underlying cause of his encephalitis is. It's just that, well,

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Speaker 2: he's got this inflammation and it's what caused his death.

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Speaker 1: So keep the inflammation part in mind also, So now

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Speaker 1: you're going to be pretty full, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: to think about magic, and you're gonna have to think

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Speaker 1: about the encephalitis. So this is not surprising to me.

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Speaker 1: And Jet and her husband have life insurance policies on

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Speaker 1: each other. She collects his ten thousand dollars life insurance policy,

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Speaker 1: which is these days would be about one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars. Not a massive policy, but for a

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Speaker 1: guy who's running a restaurant, enough to probably keep her afloat.

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Speaker 1: So it makes sense, you know that this is a

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Speaker 1: kind of that size. And Jet and the two kiddos

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Speaker 1: move into her parents' house, and she quickly because the restaurant,

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Speaker 1: I think it's still on the market. She starts saving money.

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Speaker 1: She has the ten thousand dollars life insurance policy, but

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Speaker 1: she gets another restaurant job, and she starts saving money

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Speaker 1: because she wants to buy the restaurant that they once owned.

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Speaker 1: So by nineteen fifty five, which is three years later,

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Speaker 1: she is working at these restaurants saving money. She has

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Speaker 1: saved enough cash to buy back the restaurant that Ben

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Speaker 1: had put on the market and then subsequently sold, and

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Speaker 1: she renamed it and Jets she had to work very

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Speaker 1: hard for this. She was very committed to this and

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Speaker 1: probably you know where this is going life insurance slash

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Speaker 1: mysterious illness. I'm not going to throw red herrings in here.

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Speaker 1: She will be accused of eventually poisoning Ben. My point

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Speaker 1: in bring that upright now is I was expecting her

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Speaker 1: to take that ten thousand dollars and blow it on

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Speaker 1: stupid stuff, and she didn't. She decided this is what

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Speaker 1: I want. I love this restaurant, and I can do

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Speaker 1: it by myself. I am not defending her, Paul, I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying I'm a little bit thinking. You know, she

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Speaker 1: is goal focused and for good or for bad, that's

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Speaker 1: what she wanted, was that restaurant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're saying that if she was responsible for

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Speaker 2: Ben's death through some sort of poisoning, that you would

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Speaker 2: think that she would, you know, skip town. Yeah, as

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Speaker 2: opposed to, you know, work so hard to re establish

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Speaker 2: this restaurant that was so important to her. Okay, again,

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Speaker 2: I'm just tucking this all away.

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Speaker 1: No, it's good, it's good. So she has this restaurant,

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Speaker 1: which is more popular than the last restaurant that she

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Speaker 1: had been owned. People of course, are drawn there because

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Speaker 1: of her looks, and her charming personality blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: But she also serves good food and she runs a

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Speaker 1: good business. This restaurant in Jets become sort of the

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Speaker 1: headquarters for local city leaders and lawyers, businessmen, pilots because

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Speaker 1: there's a hotel that is close by and by the airport,

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Speaker 1: and so there are all these people coming and then

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Speaker 1: there are rumors that begin to swirl that and Jet

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Speaker 1: has an exciting new love wife. This is three years

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Speaker 1: after her husband's died, and the men that she's linked

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Speaker 1: to around town, a couple of them are married, and

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Speaker 1: one of them is kind of the cream that rises

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Speaker 1: to the top. So in spring of fifty five, she

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Speaker 1: begins dating this handsome twenty six year old airline pilot

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Speaker 1: named Joe Neil Gabbert. His name is Buddy, goes by

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Speaker 1: Buddy to her family's shock, he is someone that she

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Speaker 1: marries that June. So just a couple of months later

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Speaker 1: and Buddy and in Jet move into her home with

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Speaker 1: the two kiddos that she had with Ben and with

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Speaker 1: her parents. So she meets this guy. She dates him Buddy,

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Speaker 1: and he's a pilot, and they get married. She moves

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Speaker 1: him into the family home a few months later he

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Speaker 1: begins having some health problems. Twenty six years old, and

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Speaker 1: he begins having these health problems. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: talk about the health problems now or do you want

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Speaker 1: to comment on this whole scenario of Ben dying three

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Speaker 1: years later, she married somebody else very quickly, and now

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Speaker 1: this guy starts to feel sick.

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Speaker 2: The question that comes to my mind is, after Ben dies,

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Speaker 2: was there any suspicion on and Jet at that point

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Speaker 2: in time?

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Speaker 1: No, sir, okay, not a bit.

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Speaker 2: So yes, let's start talking about buddy's health issues.

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Speaker 1: They're confusing and they won't be confusing to you probably,

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Speaker 1: but they are to me. Okay. So doctors have no

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Speaker 1: idea what's going on with him, So they go through

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Speaker 1: the list of symptoms. He says, one day before my

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Speaker 1: symptoms developed, I had this real simple outpatient surgery on

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Speaker 1: my wrist. And when he got back the next day,

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Speaker 1: he said he had a high fever, he was having

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Speaker 1: a weeping skin rash. Could a simple procedure have caused

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Speaker 1: something so terrible? I guess an infection from the procedure,

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Speaker 1: and then it could have kind of come out in

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Speaker 1: different ways in his body. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: So? You know, a weeping skin rash.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the only way to describe it.

300
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Speaker 2: And is it you know, around the is it localized

301
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,360
Speaker 2: to the site of where he had the procedure or

302
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,680
Speaker 2: is it throughout his body?

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00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 1: It seems like throughout his body, because the doctors become

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Speaker 1: suspicious by this rash.

305
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 2: And it's weeping mm hmm. Now you know something that

306
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,600
Speaker 2: is systemic like that, that's interesting. You know, who knows

307
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 2: what he's exposed to during the procedure. But I'm assuming

308
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Speaker 2: that now there's going to be some sort of suspicion

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Speaker 2: that and Jet had something to do with him developing

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Speaker 2: these health issues.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but he goes to the doctors and he says,

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Speaker 1: I feel terrible. Look at everything that's happening. I have

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Speaker 1: a fever. I obviously have some kind of infection. They

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Speaker 1: say they don't know, and they, I'm sure, try to

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Speaker 1: treat the rash however they can, but the situation gets worse.

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Speaker 1: Buddy goes to the Veteran's hospital in Dublin, Georgia, and

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Speaker 1: he dies there. So the doctor looks at this and says,

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Speaker 1: this rash could have been attributed to arsenic So they

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Speaker 1: become suspicious based on this rash because I guess it's

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Speaker 1: darker and this is something that was commonly found with

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Speaker 1: long term arsenic poisoning. And Jet says, oh, you think

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Speaker 1: I poisoned him, go ahead and do an autopsy, and

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Speaker 1: so they do it and it's not arsenic. It comes

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Speaker 1: back clean. So she is moving on, and she changes

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Speaker 1: her name back to Lyles from I think she must

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Speaker 1: have changed it initially to Gabbert. She goes back to Lyles,

327
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Speaker 1: so she's now in Jet Lyles again. And she gets

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Speaker 1: her husband's life insurance payout, which is twenty thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: so think double of what she got before, so you know,

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Speaker 1: two hundred and something thousand dollars. She gets a car,

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Speaker 1: she gets a split level house, and within a few

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Speaker 1: months of her husband's death, she starts dating one of

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Speaker 1: his buddies at the airline, this guy named Bob Franks.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to judge number one, how people spend

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Speaker 1: money after somebody dies, nor whether they marry somebody quickly afterwards,

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Speaker 1: or if it's a friend of the husband's. I'm not

337
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Speaker 1: here to judge that because I don't you know, I

338
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Speaker 1: haven't lost a spouse. I don't know what my reaction

339
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 1: would be, I'm just putting it out there that she

340
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Speaker 1: now has focused on a different pilot type of person

341
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Speaker 1: named Bob Franks, and now I'm concerned about Bob.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I know. Is she one of these black

343
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Speaker 2: widow type killers, you know, who ends up going after

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Speaker 2: these these men that potentially have decent sources of income.

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Speaker 2: Yet oh, she likes to live the high life and

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00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,320
Speaker 2: comes up with a way to be able to move

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Speaker 2: on from them as well as financially benefit mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: If you and I had a type in the world

349
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Speaker 1: of true crime, I think the black widow would have

350
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,959
Speaker 1: been one of our types. I like a good black widow.

351
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,479
Speaker 1: I find it interesting, especially because they're unassuming and they

352
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 1: can get away with this for a very long time,

353
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Speaker 1: and I think they're unusual. I don't know if they're

354
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Speaker 1: as unusual as we think they are, because you could

355
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Speaker 1: get away with so much in the eighteen hundreds and

356
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:22,920
Speaker 1: even the nineteen hundreds.

357
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Speaker 2: Oh no, definitely, especially if you space things out, if

358
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Speaker 2: your spouse, you know, if your spouse's you know, end

359
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 2: up dying. If you have the ability to move around

360
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Speaker 2: and to be able to kill in a manner that

361
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 2: would limit suspicion on how the person died. That, yeah,

362
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 2: you could have numerous victims under this scenario. But when

363
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,879
Speaker 2: you start killing the spouse in the same location, and

364
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 2: everybody's going, hey, wait a second. Her first spouse died weird,

365
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 2: her second spouse died weird. There seems to be a

366
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Speaker 2: pattern here. Then that's when they get caught.

367
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,479
Speaker 1: A pattern here is an understatement for this case. So

368
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 1: we're worried about Bob, but I'm not sure we should

369
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,399
Speaker 1: be that worried about him just yet, because someone else

370
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 1: who could cause big problems for and Jet moves in.

371
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 1: So her first husband, Ben Lyles, who died you know,

372
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 1: we know early on, has a mom and her name

373
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Speaker 1: is Julia Lyles, and she visits with an Jet and says, hey,

374
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Speaker 1: I would like to move in with you because I

375
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 1: want to spend more time with my two granddaughters and

376
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 1: I'm getting older and so and Jet looks at her

377
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: and says okay, and has her move in, even though

378
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: she doesn't like her very much, and quickly discovers that

379
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 1: Julia is sitting on a lot of money and doesn't

380
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: have a will, And and Jet, of course, because now

381
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: I think we have a good bead on a Jet,

382
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 1: and her character starts pressing her mother in law former

383
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 1: mother in law, for her to make a will and

384
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Speaker 1: to leave everything to Jet and the girls. And the

385
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 1: mother in law is saying, I don't really want to

386
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 1: do that right now. I would like to go out

387
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 1: and hang out with my grandkids. In the summer of

388
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Speaker 1: fifty six, so this is a year after her second

389
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,919
Speaker 1: husband dies, and Jet makes a particularly disturbing and I

390
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: mean haphazard as far as I'm concerned, comment to a

391
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: friend who's staying at the house at the time. Julia,

392
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 1: the mother in law, walks through the living room and

393
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 1: then Jet whispers to her, the old devil. I hate her.

394
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 1: I wish she were dead. Now, you know, people say

395
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 1: mean things all the time, and people say it comes

396
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 1: back to haunt them. I've wished her dead. It doesn't

397
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 1: mean you're going to kill that person. But this seems

398
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 1: particularly ominous when coming from a woman who has two

399
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 1: husbands who have died from mysterious illnesses.

400
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure, you know. And I wonder if

401
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 2: if she's making that comment as you've been drinking that

402
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: night yet oh she loose of the tongue, because if

403
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: she's plotting to kill Julia. She's making a huge mistake

404
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 2: by making that statement to this witness.

405
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think that this is a time

406
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: when Julia should be on guard, and she's not, because

407
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: not long after and Jet makes a statement, her mother

408
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,719
Speaker 1: in law gets very sick. She goes to the hospital

409
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 1: and and Jet is at her beck and call, which

410
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure has never happened before. For a month straight.

411
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine being ill with probably long term arsenic

412
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: poisoning in a hospital. How much discomfort, nausea, diarrhea, pain,

413
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 1: abdominal pain. Probably she's getting this rash, all of this,

414
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 1: and we are going to assume that Jet, because she

415
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 1: is tending to her, is feeding her this over this

416
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: month somehow. So during this month, there's a cook at

417
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: the restaurant and a Jet's restaurant that sees and Jet

418
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: pour buttermilk into a container that's intended for Julia at

419
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: the hospital. She pours the milk, she grabs her purse,

420
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: she's holding the container. She leaves the kitchen. I mean,

421
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 1: and Jetta is not like a criminal mastermind here. She

422
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be trying to cover things up. The

423
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 1: cook doesn't say anything about this doesn't raise a red

424
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: flag because he doesn't know enough about the two dead

425
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: husbands for context. Here, I have just a practical question.

426
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: I don't know what arsenic tastes like. I imagine it

427
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: must be pretty nasty in acidic. I can't think that

428
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 1: buttermilk would really cover that up. But just from a

429
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: chemistry standpoint, is that a good source for you to

430
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: cover up a poison like that?

431
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 2: Well, I'm right now I'm looking up the solubility of arsenic. Arsenic.

432
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 2: Even though there's various forms, it appears that it's really

433
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: not very soluble in water. You know, when you think

434
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: about something like buttermilk, you have in essence, it's not

435
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: just water, but you have the fats in there, so

436
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 2: that could potentially be something that helps dissolve the arsenic. Plus,

437
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 2: it's opaque, so if you have any undissolved solid within

438
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: the butter milk, you won't see it. Whether or not

439
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: the buttermilk taste would cover up the potential taste of

440
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 2: the arsenic, I don't know, but I could see where

441
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: this this buttermilk may allow for a more efficient mechanism

442
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 2: to deliver a stronger concentration of the arsenic than just

443
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 2: stirring it up in water based on what I'm seeing

444
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: with its solubility.

445
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 1: Well, I'll say this, she is poisoning all these people.

446
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: I mean, just straight out. And this is going on

447
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: for a month. Julia is in tremendous pain at the hospital.

448
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: She has nausea, edema, and her hands, the doctors say,

449
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: are so swollen that she has had no use of them.

450
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: I still don't quite understand, so arsenic would have caused

451
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: all of that, right, those symptoms tally with what would

452
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: happen with a poisoning like this.

453
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: Well it appears, yes, it appears that arsenic could cause

454
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: all these symptoms. You know, and different people respond to

455
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: toxins differently, so it's not surprising that you possibly could

456
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: see the differences. You know, like we're seeing Julia having

457
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: different symptoms than Ben. We have the rash, the skin lesions,

458
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: and now you know, Julia is responding differently. There may

459
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 2: be different concentrations of arsenic that are being applied to her.

460
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: This is outside my area of expertise. This is where

461
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: I would be having to rely on medical professionals if

462
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: I'm trying to build a case against and Jet. You know,

463
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 2: part of these questions, just like you asked, well, how

464
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: come I have different symptoms? You know, right now I

465
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: think arsenic is being involved, But how come the different symptoms?

466
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 2: And now I have experts telling me, well, this is

467
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 2: what they see when they are dealing with you know,

468
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 2: either accidental ingestion or purposeful poisoning of arsenic.

469
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: Well, whatever it is, it kills her in late September

470
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty seven, one week after Julia's death, and

471
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: Jet says, oh, she did do a will, okay, And

472
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: the will, of course leaves her entire estate this fifteen

473
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: thousand dollars two and Jet and her daughters. Now we

474
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: have two husbands and a mother in law who have

475
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: all died. I would have thought with the husbands, because

476
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: this is in the nineteen forties. There were diseases, but

477
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: we're not talking about the eighteen hundreds here or even

478
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: turn of the century. This is a little further on.

479
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: And of course we did have a doctor with the

480
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: second husband, with Buddy, who was suspicious. Bob Franks is

481
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: still hanging around. He hasn't died yet, and and Jet

482
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: has mostly avoided suspicion until she does something cruel and

483
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: I mean stupid Frankly in the Winner of nineteen fifty eight,

484
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: her nine year old daughter Morsey gets sick after a

485
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: long and mysterious illness, She's in the hospital and she

486
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 1: dies three months later. I mean, good lord, that's a

487
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: long time. The doctors are really alarmed by and Jet

488
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: because they are looking at her behavior towards her nine

489
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: year old and they said she is cold. She is

490
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: not mothering at all. Now listen to this symptom, Paul,

491
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: because we haven't heard this yet. The doctors are reporting

492
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: to police that Marcy would have the occasional fits and

493
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: complain that there were yellow bugs crawling over her and

494
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: growing out of her fingernails. She's having it sounds like hallucinations.

495
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: Which is one of the symptoms of cephalitis that Ben

496
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: was dealing with.

497
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: I mean, that's amazing. It must have been terrifying for

498
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: this little girl, Marcy to experience that. And then and Jet,

499
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: when she hears about these hallucinations, laughs at her. She

500
00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: also purchases a small coffin two weeks before Marcy died,

501
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: and the doctors had said she's probably going to make

502
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: a recovery. Don't worry about it. I think everything's okay.

503
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: And Jet seems to be going off the rails. As

504
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: I said, not a criminal mastermind to begin with, but

505
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: she was holding it together and avoiding suspicion until she

506
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: is focusing on a nine year old who probably has

507
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: no reason to be sick at all, And it seems

508
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: like to me and Jet is starting to get sloppy here.

509
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: To eliminate the child. You know, that's interesting, and that's

510
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: where you start getting into is there a Munchausen biproxy

511
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: type of scenario psychology where previously had been you know,

512
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: financial motive. But is Ane Jet actually enjoying the killing

513
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: and this daughter is somebody she has access to or

514
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: is she wanting to change her life circumstances and now

515
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: is eliminating her family so she doesn't have, you know,

516
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: this baggage so to speak of kids, and she can

517
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: go on and live whatever life she wants.

518
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: Well, I know that money at least is a motive

519
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: because they have insurance on their nine year.

520
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: Old and that's a red flag.

521
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: Well, so then part of it yes and part of

522
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: it no, because a lot of times people in those

523
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: times and a little bit earlier too, would have tried

524
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: to put insurance on kids in case something happened and

525
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: they could at least afford to pay for the funeral.

526
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: But this is a lot of money, I mean, oney,

527
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty dollars, which would have been ten

528
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: to fifteen thousand maybe right now, and she collects it,

529
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: of course. So this is what's interesting. So there's an

530
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: anonymous call to the police before Marcy died, right before

531
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: the little girl dies, and this is Julia Lyles's sister,

532
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: So this would be Marcy's great aunt who calls and says,

533
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: what are you going to do to save Marcy Lyles's life.

534
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: The mother in law's family believe that in jet was

535
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: killing people, and they, I'm sure believed that jet killed

536
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: Julia Lyles. And now Marcy's in the hospital, I'm sure

537
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: the same hospital, and her great aunt is petrified that

538
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: something's gonna happen, and then it did. She died.

539
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah that's sad. Yeah, you know. So now you have

540
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: four victims at this point, right, yep.

541
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: We've got two husbands, a mother in law, and then

542
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: the nine year old daughter and she still has another

543
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: kid in the house and Bob. What's gonna happen with Bob?

544
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean, he seems prime for it, but she hasn't

545
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: married him yet, you know, I'm sure that's the first

546
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: thing she does when she marries. Somebody says, let's get

547
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: this life insurance. I'm sure it's on her too, but

548
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: it will never be used. So as we are moving

549
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: forward here, the police, after getting that phone call, are

550
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: alarmed and they start finding out more information. So they

551
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: launch in making a secret investigation into this little girl's death.

552
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: They have specimens of her body tissues sent to the

553
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: state's crime lab without and Jet's consent. Can we do

554
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: that now without telling the family if they're under suspicion?

555
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, they've got a criminal investigation going

556
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: on for sure. Now these specimens become a physical evidence,

557
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: and they're now investigating a crime, and there's no reason

558
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: to let the family know.

559
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: Okay, So they send this off two days later, We're

560
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: not going to be shocked when we find out that

561
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: she had been poisoned with arsenic So now it's definite

562
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: this is what's happening. They search her house and they

563
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: come up with a plan to try to catch her.

564
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: They have and Jet's doctor who has been treating her

565
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: for thrombosis, and I need you to tell me what

566
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: that is. In a second, they want the doctor to

567
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: urge and Jet to come in for an overnight stay.

568
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: Now I know this is blood clotting, but I don't

569
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: know anything else about thrombosis. Is this a disease that

570
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: would have affected somebody under the age of thirty.

571
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe there's probably a congenital aspect. You know.

572
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: Thrombosis is a clotting of the blood within the blood

573
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: vessels themselves. You know, different conditions can cause it. I mean,

574
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: it can be very serious, you know. And this is

575
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: where like I what I do is I fly a lot,

576
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: you know, and you get the possibility if you're sitting

577
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: on a plane for a long period of time, you

578
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: have the possibility of getting that deep vein thrombosis that DVT. Also,

579
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: that's where they recommend getting up walk around where the

580
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: compression stocking is to improve the circulation through the lower extremities,

581
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: because if you get a blood clot it's possible it

582
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: could come loose, it could lodge in the heart. You know,

583
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: you could have basically a heart attack, it could get

584
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: a pulmonary embolism. You know, you literally just drop dead

585
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: from something like this. You know, so she's being treated

586
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: for thrombosis, so chances are she's being given something that is,

587
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: you know, thinning the blood and trying to prevent you know, this,

588
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: this clotting from occurring internally.

589
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: Well, this is all very alarming to and Jet. She

590
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: runs to the hospital and decides to spend the night.

591
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: While she's at the hospital, investigators obtain a warrant and

592
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: they search the house. Here's where all the magic in

593
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: the voodoo comes in. In the house, they find considerable

594
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: equipment for voodoo rights, candles, and an assortment of colors

595
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: and recipes for love potients and herbs and powders and

596
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: printed invocations. This is interesting. They also find a man's

597
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: sock that was pinned to her bed. The matching stock

598
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: was in a drawer wrapped around a man's photograph. And

599
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: the man is Bob Franks, who you know she has

600
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: been dating, so at least he's still alive. But she's

601
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: doing something. I don't know if it's working, but she's

602
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: doing something and it completely freaks out the police and

603
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: making at this point.

604
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: This this almost sounds like those voodoo dolls you know,

605
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: or you can cause pain by putting a needle in

606
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: the doll, you know, so obviously she has some I

607
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: don't know if you want to call him religious beliefs,

608
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: but definitely some spiritual beliefs that, you know, in addition

609
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 2: to the arsenic, she is going through these rituals that

610
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: are in her mind aiding in her accomplishing what she's

611
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 2: trying to do.

612
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: Well, as weird as that is, it's not, I'm not

613
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: sure it's even circumstantial evidence yet. But in the kitchen

614
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: investigators do find some strong evidence three empty bottles of

615
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: arsenic laden ant poison. And outside the house, investigators are

616
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 1: canvassing and they talk to some folks who had heard

617
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: some pretty disturbing exchanges between Njet and Marcy who had died.

618
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: Two employees of the restaurant overheard and Jet say to

619
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: Marcy at nine, I'm going to kill you if it's

620
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: the last thing I do. I'm going to kill you

621
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: if it's a last thing I do to a nine

622
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: year old. So her character, this facade is something else

623
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: that she built. This charming southern woman, welcoming, beautiful, someone

624
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: who invites you into the restaurant and you're eating her food,

625
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: and she is telling a nine year old, I'm going

626
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: to kill you if it's a last thing I do

627
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: what a actress?

628
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean it's becoming very apparent. You know,

629
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 2: a jet there is a pathology there, and you know

630
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: whether or not there's a psychopathy going on. She obviously

631
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: is lacking a level of empathy for her spouses, for

632
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: her former mother in law, for her children. You know,

633
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: she is very centrally and selfishly focused and it's all

634
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 2: about what is going to be best for a jet.

635
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 2: And you know money is a big deal for her

636
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: for sure. And this is typical for these black widow

637
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: type of killers. You know, there's that financial aspect and

638
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 2: they're looking for a shortcut and utilizing their personal skill

639
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 2: sets with with an jet. It's her physical appearance, it's

640
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 2: her personality. You know, she's able to trick people because

641
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: of you know who she is and lure them into

642
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: a trap.

643
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, she really is the definition of a black widow.

644
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: So there are other people who come forward and just

645
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: say there are some very odd things. You know. There's

646
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: the employee who finally says, yes, I saw her putting

647
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: weird things into the buttermilk. Another one says she saw

648
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: Marcy drink a glass of lemonade that a Jette had

649
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: given her, but Ajette put something in the lemonade. It

650
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: sounds like eventually they're able to tie the depths of

651
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: her first husband, her second husband, and her mother in law,

652
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: all suspected to be the result of arsenic poisoning. And

653
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: now Bob Franks has concerns. Of course, he had been

654
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: dating her and then he broke up with her, and

655
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: this was a big problem. And this is why we

656
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: have the weird sock around his photo thing, because she

657
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: reportedly is accused of manipulating him through hexes and spells

658
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: into continue dating her, and this has completely freaked him out,

659
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: and he's trying to distance himself. Eventually, in fifty eight

660
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 1: she's charged, arrested and charged with four counts of murder,

661
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: and they search her purse and they find two more

662
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: empty bottles of ant poison. For and Jet's part, she says,

663
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: I own a restaurant. Of course I have ant poison.

664
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: The police respond with, you bought way too much for

665
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: your restaurant. There's no way you should have this much

666
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: amp poison, which is something that has tripped up many poisoners.

667
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 1: When she goes on trial for the murder, charge related

668
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: to Marcy's death, the daughter's death in fifty eight, late

669
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: fifty eight, she has to admit proudly it sounds like

670
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: that she is interested in magic and voodoo. She testifies,

671
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: never a good idea. She does not apologize for her

672
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: belief in magic or voodoo, but she says that she

673
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: feels like she's being framed for Marcy's death. She didn't

674
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: do anything to her. She said that her first husband

675
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: had a heart attack and drank too much, the second

676
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: one had always had that weird rash, and that her

677
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 1: mother in law had always been a sickly woman. And

678
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: she denies tampering with anything that anyone drank. And then

679
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: here's the financial part. And now this will be interesting.

680
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: So this is all nuts and bolts, the stuff that

681
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: we would go through in a trial. And I have

682
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: read this before. She says, what financial motive are you

683
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: talking about? It costs four seven hundred dollars just to

684
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: treat Marcy, and her insurance palt was only seventeen fifty.

685
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: She said, I had nothing to gain from killing her.

686
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: She said, I spent more money on all of these

687
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: people than their insurance policies could cover. So are we

688
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: back to now the psychopathy aspect of this or the

689
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: Munchausen as you had mentioned.

690
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: Well, if that is truly the case, there's the cost

691
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: associated with the medical treatments. There's the cost associated with

692
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: the burial. However, the family was interred if you will,

693
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: whether there's cremated or buried. But there's all so other

694
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 2: factors that could have financial benefit. And that's where you know,

695
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: digging into somebody's life and assets, you know, such as

696
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: you know, I've got a case in which life insurance

697
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: wasn't the issue. It was in case if one of

698
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: the if a spouse died, that the small business loan

699
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 2: was forgiven. Oh you know, so you have something that

700
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: kind of is sort of silent financially, but it actually

701
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: is huge to the person. So you know, there could

702
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: be more going on. But if she is not financially benefiting,

703
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: then yes, there is the possibility. I mean, these life

704
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: insurance policies she's utilizing just to offset the cost that

705
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: she knows she's going to be incurring when she starts poisoning,

706
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: you know. And so this this is this life insurance

707
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: policy is really a mechanism to preserve her finances so

708
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: she can kill so yes, there is a psychopathy there.

709
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: Well that actually comes to play in just a few minutes.

710
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: So she goes on trial. All of this is presented.

711
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: Experts say, we've connected these other deaths, but she's only

712
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: on trial right now for Marcy's murder. The prosecutors keep

713
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: slipping in the other murders. The jury is convinced, even

714
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,959
Speaker 1: though they're all male, all male jury, usually they don't

715
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: like to convict really pretty women of murder. But there

716
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: was too much evidence, and after thirty five minutes of deliberation,

717
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: she's found guilty and sentenced to death, the first woman

718
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: sentenced to death in the state of Georgia.

719
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, Ivan, thirty five minutes deliberation is fast.

720
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 2: Very yes, Yeah, it must have been a very convincing

721
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: case that the prosecution put on.

722
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: That would be fast for the eighteen hundreds, where the

723
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: trials are a day and a half at the most.

724
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: It was pretty convincing. And I don't think, as I

725
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: slyly mentioned before, she probably did herself any favors. That

726
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: again is egotism. I can't imagine that any attorney would say, oh,

727
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: go ahead and take the stand. She must have really

728
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: felt like she could convince all of these men with

729
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 1: her looks, in her charm, that she was telling the truth. Yes,

730
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: I believe in magic, but there is nothing definitive to

731
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: say that, aside from owning a lot of ant poison,

732
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 1: that I did any of this. And they didn't believe her.

733
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: No, Well, she has an ego. It almost sounds like

734
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 2: there's a narcisstic aspect to her personality where she feels

735
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: even earlier when she says, yeah, go ahead an autopsy,

736
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: she feels that she is so good at what she's

737
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: doing that the autopsy is not going to you know,

738
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: uncover you know, how she is accomplishing the crime. So

739
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: she has a lot of self confidence in herself and

740
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: for sure, her personality, this is the again victimology is huge.

741
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: Her personality plays into how she is navigating through the

742
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 2: crime but also through the criminal justice system. Her going

743
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: I will testify and get up and you know, on

744
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 2: the stand, and you know, she has so much self confidence.

745
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: She feels that she is going to be able to

746
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: convince the jury of her innocence.

747
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: Well, she's convicted, she's set for execution. But there is

748
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: a massive political backlash. As you can imagine this I'm

749
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: sure is not the woman they pictured being the first

750
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: woman executed, and there are appeals that are eventually exhausted.

751
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: It seems like she will be executed. But then the

752
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: governor appoints a sanity commission, which I've written a lot about,

753
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: and these commissions are made up of healthcare professionals and

754
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: their job is to establish the quote unquote sanity of

755
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: somebody who is going on trial or set to be executed.

756
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: So they talk to her, they interview her, they look

757
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: at all of the evidence in the case, and they

758
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 1: come up with this. I'm going to give you the quote,

759
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: but we know that we don't say someone is diabetic.

760
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: We say somebody who is living with diabetes. I'm giving

761
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: you the direct quote. Though she was determined to be psychotic, insane,

762
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: and a chronic paranoid schizophrenic. That was their diagnosis in

763
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: the fifties.

764
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this is where the primary issue

765
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: that I'm having is the insane part.

766
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

767
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 2: The amount of planning that Anget is demonstrating by killing

768
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 2: four shows a level of mental competence, And for me,

769
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 2: I scoff at the idea that she has a true

770
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 2: psychotic aspect to her mental health, whether or not she

771
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 2: has a level of schizophrenia. You know, I'm wondering if

772
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 2: they're focusing in on the magic practices, you know, this

773
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: alternate life philosophy, if you will, who knows? You know

774
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: that that's something where I'll leave it up to the

775
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 2: you know, the forensic psychiatrists to be able to you know, determine.

776
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 2: But just because somebody does have a a certain mental

777
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: health issue does not mean they are mentally incompetent to

778
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 2: be tried and convicted of a crime such as this.

779
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we're not going to talk about the

780
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: death penalty and debate that and whether or not it's

781
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: right or not. What we do know is that whatever

782
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: she said to them worked and they recommended commuting her

783
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: death sentence to life in prison, okay, which is what happened.

784
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: She was transferred to Georgia's State Hospital for the Insane,

785
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: terrible phrase, where she died of heart failure in seventy seven.

786
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: She was fifty two years old, so that was her

787
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: ultimate end. And I want to give a little a

788
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: side note here because I was curious about Carla, who

789
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: was the youngest daughter. She was three years younger. So

790
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: when her sister died at age nine. She was six.

791
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 1: We don't know much about her except that in nineteen

792
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: fifty nine she was a ward of the court and

793
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: her father, who was Ben Lyles, his family had wanted

794
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: to get custody of her. So I'm crossing my fingers

795
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: that that's actually what happened, and that this little girl,

796
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 1: out of this whole mess, who lost her grandmother, who

797
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: lost her stepfather, who lost her father, and now her

798
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: mother's gone, hopefully ended up in a better situation than

799
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: her mother, who took everything away from her. Everything.

800
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, now, for sure, you know, hopefully there was something

801
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: that positive that happened with Carla.

802
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 1: Well, we're transitioning now from a very very bad mother

803
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: to my wonderful mother who once again I want to

804
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: wish a happy birthday and I adore so much and

805
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: I would like another eighty with her here. Crossing my fingers,

806
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 1: we'll see maybe with a little magic, a little something,

807
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: little voodoo, maybe I'll see if I have a sock.

808
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: I think that was a bad voodoo, not a good

809
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: one though. See you next week. Thanks Paul.

810
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good.

811
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: This has been and exactly write production for our sources

812
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

813
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

814
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

815
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

816
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

817
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

818
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

819
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

820
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: Barry Bones pod.

821
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

822
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

823
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available

824
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: Now, and Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving

825
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: America's Cold Cases is also available now