1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: We have returned. Today's classic is about something called the 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: chap Equittic Incident, which might not be familiar to a 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: lot of people our age and younger. It's one of 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: those terrible stories that occurred and eventually just didn't get 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: talked about as the years went on. 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: But if you do enjoy watching a little show called Succession, 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: you may have seen a storyline that was very similar 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: to the incident described in today's episode. 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: What would have happened to Mary Joe kapec name if 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: she had not taken. 11 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 3: That ride from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 3: History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 3: now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 14 00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: Our trustee co host nol Is off on a completely 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: non sketchy mission, but will be returning. They call me Ben. 17 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: We're joined with our super producer Paul Dekkant. Give them 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: a hand, folks, friends and neighbors, but most importantly, give 19 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: a hand to yourself. You are here, You are you, 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today, Matt, 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: you and I are diving into a crucial event in 22 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: American history, one that, despite quite possibly changing the course 23 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: of American politics, is relatively obscure to a lot of 24 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: people living today, especially younger members of our audience. 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: Yes, you and I know about this because we've been 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: paid to delve into historical strangeness for quite a time now, 27 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: and a lot of people listening are going to be 28 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: familiar with the story we discussed today because of their 29 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: interest in these things. But how overall the American public is, 30 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: maybe especially younger people, are not aware of this. It's 31 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 2: something that happened on July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, one day, 32 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: essentially one night, and it changed the course of one 33 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: man's life quite a bit. And today we have two 34 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: gentlemen on the show who wrote an entire screenplay about 35 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 2: that day and the aftermath, why it occurred, what occurred, 36 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: And we're going to jump right in and introduce them 37 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: right now. 38 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: That's great. The screenwriters of chap Equittic, Taylor Allen and 39 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: Andrew Logan. Welcome to the show, gentlemen. Thank you so 40 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: much for joining. 41 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 4: Us today, Thank you so much for having for having 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 4: I'm really excited to be here. 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: So let's jump right in and today we are discussing 44 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: the Kennedy family, an American institution, a group of people 45 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: who have captured the fascination of Americans for decades upon decades. 46 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: And let's first start off by discussing just how powerful 47 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: the Kennedy institution was in the nineteen sixties. 48 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 5: So, yeah, the family, you know, was for sure. 49 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 4: You know, one of the most powerful families in American 50 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 4: politics in the nineteen sixties. John F. Kennedy was obviously 51 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 4: president in the early sixties, and Robert F. Kennedy was 52 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 4: running for president in nineteen sixty eight when he was 53 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 4: tragically assassinated. And our story takes place a year after 54 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 4: Bobby's assassination a year later, when his younger brother, Ted 55 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 4: Kennedy goes to at Marcu's vineyard to have a host 56 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 4: a party for a group of women called the boiler 57 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 4: Room Girls, who were actually Bobby Kennedy's campaign aides, and 58 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 4: they were there to sort of, you know, celebrate the 59 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 4: memory of the you know, recently deceased an older candy brother. 60 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: And much has been made over the tone or the 61 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: atmosphere of this gathering. We know that there were let's see, 62 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: were there four boiler room Girls in attendance at this time. 63 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 5: Six boiler room girls actually, and they were all single, 64 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 5: and five of the men that were there were all married, 65 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 5: which led to a lot of scurlist rumors and headlines 66 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 5: about what that might mean because of the mores at 67 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 5: the time in the late nineteen sixties. But one thing 68 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 5: that is good to get on the record now is that, 69 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 5: as Andrew said, the boiler room girls were campaign workers 70 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 5: and strategists honestly, and that in the newspapers at the 71 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 5: time they were often mischaracterized as secretaries. And I think 72 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 5: that that added to the sort of rumor and misinformation 73 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 5: that had taken prominence in the press at the time, 74 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 5: because honestly, these were very smart, very capable women, and 75 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 5: they were very close with the Kennedy family because of 76 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 5: how skilled they were and how close they became with 77 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 5: the Senator Robert F. Kennedy over the prior year. 78 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: Do you do you feel that the newspapers and media 79 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: outlets of the time were pursuing a salacious angle with 80 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: the with the goal of maybe making the the gathering 81 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: seem more lurid than it actually was with this, you know, 82 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: with this mischaracterization as secretaries versus strategists. 83 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 5: Undoubtedly, I think that that was where people's minds went, 84 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 5: and I think that it was covered that way in 85 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 5: part to push newspapers, but in part just because of 86 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 5: a problem that you know, is still a problem today 87 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 5: where you try to present both sides of the argument, 88 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 5: and at the end of the day, there was no foundation, 89 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 5: in fact, in discernible truth that anything immoral was happening. 90 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 5: It was simply a party, It was simply a reunion, 91 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 5: and there was nothing else to it other than that. 92 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: And there was kind of a history at least with 93 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: John F. Kennedy and a little bit with Robert in 94 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: having interactions with women outside of their marriage, so you know, 95 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: there was something to it, but as you said, probably 96 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 2: wasn't actually anything salacious. So who specifically one of the 97 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: boiler room girls, who was Mary Joe Kopecney. 98 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 5: Mary Joe Kpecney is the victim in this case. She 99 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 5: ends up, you know, dying as a result of actions 100 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 5: that Ted Kennedy took and didn't take. And for us, 101 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 5: when we were researching her, what we found was, you know, 102 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 5: the most brilliant and you know, a woman of the 103 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 5: highest standard, and it was really a life cut way 104 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 5: too short, and so that's why in the movie we 105 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 5: really tried to honor her memory by having her express 106 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 5: all of her talent, to show how everyone around her 107 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 5: thought she was so talented, and to show how she 108 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,119 Speaker 5: really did have a lot of dreams and ambitions. And 109 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 5: one of the lines that I quite like is when 110 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 5: she describes the difference between politics and public service, and 111 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 5: in speaking with the family about her she was definitely 112 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 5: not in it for the politics. She was in it 113 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 5: to serve the public interest. 114 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate the point you make about a 115 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: life cut short, because as she was twenty eight on 116 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: the night of this incident, and when we, like many others, 117 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: look back at the timeline, what we see is that 118 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: for many years afterwards, questions remained. Could you walk us 119 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: through briefly the the timeline, the events, and the order 120 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: in which we believe they transpired after Kennedy and Kapecne 121 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: left the gathering. 122 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 5: Okay, so I'm going to try to walk this through 123 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 5: as simply as possible while pointing out what is on 124 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 5: the record and by whom they were there in Martha's 125 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 5: vineyard that weekend for the edgar Town Regatta, and said 126 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 5: Kennedy came a knight that day and after the race 127 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 5: they went back to Chappaquittock Island, which important to the story, 128 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 5: is a ferry ride off of the mainland. There's no 129 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 5: way to access it other than by ferry, and no 130 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 5: one was planning on staying at chap Equittic that evening. 131 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 5: Tit Kennedy had a room in Edgartown at the shire 132 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 5: Town Inn. All the boiler room girls had a room 133 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 5: at a different hotel on the mainland. And the only 134 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 5: person I think that was actually going to stay on 135 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 5: t Epiqutic Island was the person who arranged for the party, 136 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 5: and that was Tit Kennedy's cousin, Joe Gargan, and he 137 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 5: becomes very important to the story as we continue. As 138 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 5: we said, the party was simply that a cookout with 139 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 5: friends reminiscing music was played. We know, we assumed there 140 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 5: was dancing. Ultimately, one of the boiler room girls asked 141 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 5: us to cut out the dancing, so there's no dancing 142 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 5: in the movie anymore. And what Ted Kennedy has said 143 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 5: in what many of the boiler room girl said under oath, 144 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 5: was that Ted Kennedy and Mary Joe left at eleven fifteen. 145 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 5: Ted Kennedy has said that Mary Joe said that she 146 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 5: wasn't feeling well and that he was taking her back 147 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 5: to her hotel. I don't know if we're getting too 148 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 5: deep into the weeds here, but I'll tell you that 149 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 5: Mary Joe left her purse with her hotel room key 150 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 5: at the cottage, and so it leads to questions about 151 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 5: how she was expecting to get into her room if 152 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 5: that was the case. Ted Kennedy says that the accident 153 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 5: happened shortly thereafter after he made a wrong turn off 154 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 5: of Main Road onto Dyke Road. This is again a 155 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 5: very complicated thing to try to describe an audio, but 156 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 5: to say that this was a mistaken turn is a 157 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 5: little bit stretching credulity. Because Main Road is a paved road, 158 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 5: it is obviously the way that you would go to 159 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 5: get to the ferry. Ted Kennedy had been back and 160 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 5: forth on the very multiple times that day, and probably 161 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 5: had been many times in his life prior to that. 162 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: It's also a curve road that curves left, so it's 163 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 4: not like he would go to a stop sign and 164 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 4: then make a right turn. 165 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 5: It was a continual just you. 166 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 4: Know, left hand curve. 167 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 5: So according to take Kenny's testimony, he makes this accidental 168 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 5: right turn onto the unpaved and very bumpy Dyke Road 169 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 5: and travels for approximately half a mile to Dyke Bridge, 170 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 5: which at the time had no guardrails and was to 171 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 5: his point, built at an angle to the road, and 172 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 5: he drove off. And the mystery around how he got 173 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 5: out of the car is something that continues to fascinate people. 174 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 5: I will actually dismiss this right now and say that 175 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 5: his window was rolled down and it's not implausible to 176 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 5: assume that he was able to get out of that 177 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 5: window with relative ease, especially in a life you know, 178 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 5: preserving moment. Obviously, in his testimony he says that he 179 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 5: tried to dive down several times to retrieve Mary Joe 180 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 5: and was unsuccessful. And then this is the point where 181 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 5: I have to bring in other points of view and 182 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 5: other notions about what the truth might be, and certainly 183 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 5: what me and Andrew believe the truth is. And that's that, 184 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 5: As we said, ten Kennedy puts the accident around eleven, 185 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 5: twenty eleven, twenty five PM. And the reason that he 186 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 5: does that is because the last fairy leaves at midnight. 187 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 5: And so when I tell you that a Sheriff's deputy officer, 188 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 5: Huck Luck saw an old smoobile matching Ten Kennedy's a 189 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 5: smobile's description, with a license plate beginning with L, the 190 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 5: same letter that Ted Kemmedy's license plate began with, remembering 191 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 5: it also had two sevens, which Ted Kennedy's license plate had. 192 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 5: I think it's very credible that a police officer, an 193 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 5: eyewitness says that that old smobile went through that intersection 194 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 5: at twelve forty five am. I now described this as 195 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 5: the missing hour. In that missing hour, we don't know 196 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 5: what happened, but I'm willing to believe that Ted Kennedy 197 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 5: and Mary Joe left at eleven fifteen as long as 198 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 5: we can also believe that they were not seen again 199 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 5: until twelve forty five. 200 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 2: Okay, So ultimately the car ends up in the water, 201 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: it's overturned, and said Kennedy does get out of the vehicle, 202 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 2: but Mary Joe does not. Let's just continue with the 203 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: story because I think our listeners won I want to 204 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: know exactly how you believe it's happened. Now that you've 205 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: done all the research and constructed an entire story around it. 206 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think this is the perfect place to 207 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 5: interject that where we got our facts wasn't from a 208 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 5: conspiracy theory paperback as some people have suggested. We actually 209 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 5: got the court records into the inquest into the death 210 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 5: of Mary Jo Kopecne, where everyone involved, everybody at the 211 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 5: party actually was reconvened in Martha's vineyard about six months 212 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 5: later and had to speak to these events under oath, 213 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 5: and for us, that primary source of people that lived 214 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 5: through it speaking under oath, that's the most sure research 215 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 5: that we could do. And that's why we felt like 216 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 5: if we stuck to the facts that we learned from 217 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 5: that testimony, that we were doing our best to recreate 218 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 5: and interpret what happened that night. 219 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: And I think that one thing that really stands out 220 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: for us and hopefully for viewers of the film as well, 221 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: is the fact driven spine of the narrative. As you 222 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: can tell listeners, as Taylor is walking through the timeline 223 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: of events here, everyone's being being very deliberate in saying 224 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: this is the attribution of this description. And as as 225 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: you have established, Matt, the the ultimate, the the ultimate 226 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: stickiness or or lack of unified perspective here does come 227 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: about in the in the hours following, uh, the in 228 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: the hours following the incident. I really appreciate Tiller the 229 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: term you use there, the missing hour, because this sounds 230 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: like one period of time where there is no witness between, 231 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: you know, between this period from shortly after eleven to 232 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: after twelve there. And it may be too far to 233 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: ask what to ask for conjecture on what would have 234 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: happened during that missing hour, But we do know that 235 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: after the incident, based on Kennedy's accounts, based on the 236 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: innkeeper's accounts and a few other accounts of phone calls 237 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: and stuff, we do have a rough timeline of what 238 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: Kennedy was probably doing in the hours following the accident. 239 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: Is that correct? 240 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 5: Absolutely? And I'll tell you even more. We read his autobiography, 241 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 5: as I think anybody would that was trying to tell 242 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 5: this story seriously, and he talks a lot about what 243 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 5: he was thinking and feeling during these intervening hours as well. 244 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 5: And so I'll continue from where we kind of left off, 245 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 5: and it kind of lines up perfectly with the point 246 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 5: that I wanted to make, which is that Ted Kennedy 247 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 5: does escape from the car and I do believe that 248 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 5: he probably tried to rescue Mary Joe, but he was 249 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 5: unsuccessful because the current was very strong, his back was 250 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 5: bad from a plane crash in nineteen sixty four. I'm 251 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 5: sure that it was probably not easy for him to 252 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 5: enter that vehicle. And then we get to the first 253 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 5: negligent decision that for me is inexcusable, even if it 254 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 5: might be understandable. And I want to make a clear 255 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 5: delineation between something that I think that is understandable and forgivable. 256 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 5: And I tried to get into the psychology of Ted Kennedy, 257 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 5: and the first moment that you hit a real bump 258 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 5: is that there's a house called the Dike House not 259 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 5: more than one hundred yards from that Dyke Bridge, and 260 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 5: he walks past it and it had its light on 261 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 5: that evening. And I feel like any person who has 262 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 5: gotten into an accident, one where someone's life is in 263 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 5: danger or, worst case scenario, already dead, it is your 264 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 5: responsibility to report that accident. 265 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 2: Agreed. 266 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 5: I think that it's fair to say, based off of 267 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 5: what Ted Kennedy has said in interviews and elsewhere, that 268 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 5: he immediately realized that this accident was going to have 269 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 5: great impact on his political career. Now, I am not 270 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 5: directly attributing that to the reason why he didn't report 271 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 5: the accident immediately to whoever lived in the Dike House, 272 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 5: but that was on his mind. And so he makes 273 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 5: approximately about a mile and a half walk back from 274 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 5: Dyke Bridge to Lawrence Cottage where the party was taking place, 275 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 5: and he passes several houses along the way. And this 276 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 5: is a walk that me and Andrew have made ourselves 277 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 5: and made recently when we showed the movie in Marthu's 278 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 5: Vineyard for the Martha's Vineyard Film Festival. It's a twenty 279 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 5: five minute walk. 280 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 4: It's a long walk. 281 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 5: There's a lot that could go through one's mind. And 282 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 5: in the movie, Ted Kennedy gets into the backseat of 283 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 5: the Valiant, the other car that the party had on 284 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 5: the island that night, and he asks for his cousin, 285 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 5: Joe Gargin, And in the movie, Ted Kennedy tells Joe Gargan, 286 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 5: I'm never going to be president. Now, this line has 287 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 5: created a lot of consternation in the Kennedy camp and 288 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 5: in certain opinion pieces that have run in The New 289 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 5: York Times, et cetera. Uh, it is my invention that 290 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 5: is Andrew's invention that that he said that in that moment, 291 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 5: but it is based off of the fact that Ted 292 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 5: Kennedy acknowledged that he did recognize immediately that his political 293 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 5: career had been impacted by this accident. 294 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 4: Also in terms of we talked about negligent behavior in 295 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 4: terms of this walk back to the what's referred to 296 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 4: as the Lawrence Cottage where the party was being held, 297 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 4: that he also in addition to the Dike House which 298 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 4: had their light on outside and the occupants of that 299 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 4: home were there, he also walked right by a fire 300 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 4: station which was almost directly across the street from the 301 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 4: Lawrence Cottage, which is another which would have been another 302 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 4: opportunity for him to go. 303 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 5: Seek help to. 304 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 4: For for immediate, to get help for Mary Joe immediately. Wow. 305 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 5: I will paraphrase Ted Kennedy's speed to the entire nation 306 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 5: at the end of the movie by saying it was 307 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 5: only for reasons of budget that this fire station was 308 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 5: not included in the film. 309 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: And at this point we're going to pause the narrative briefly. 310 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: We will return to the events of chap Equittic there 311 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: in sixty nine after a word from our sponsor, and 312 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: we have returned. When we examine the events of this night, 313 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: and as as Taylor and Andrew are already establishing here, 314 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: it's inarguable that Kennedy would have, would have had to, 315 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: would have anticipated political consequences of some sort, right even 316 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: immediately after the event. One of the big questions that 317 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: members of our audience are going to have immediately is 318 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: who did he talk to that night, and, if possible, 319 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: without relying too much on conjecture, what was the substance 320 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: of those conversations, Because to the earlier points he walked past, 321 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: he bypassed houses that had the lights. 322 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: On, right a fire station, where. 323 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: Wherein one would assume, just on surface, we would we 324 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: would assume that after an accident, especially with another person 325 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: still left at the scene of the accident, the first 326 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: move you would take is to contact an authority figure. 327 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: So who were the people that he contacted before contacting 328 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: the police or the fire department. 329 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 5: I'm so excited that you asked this question the way 330 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 5: that you did, because I get to talk about one 331 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 5: of the details that we tried desperately to make into 332 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 5: the movie, and in any iteration became too expository to explain. 333 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 5: That is that the first person that he talked to 334 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 5: was a gentleman named Rayla Rosa, who was at the 335 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 5: party at Lawrence Cottage. I believe that he was a 336 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 5: certified diver. Certainly he had a lot of experience diving, 337 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 5: scuba in the ocean, et cetera. And he is the 338 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 5: very first person that Ted talks to, and what he 339 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 5: tells him is, get Joe Gargin, we've got a problem. 340 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 5: And for Andrew and I, this was already kind of 341 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 5: a shocking thing for everyone to agree on the record 342 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 5: to be exactly what happened. He was not interested in 343 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 5: telling Rayla Rosa, a friend of his and someone that 344 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 5: could have helped what had happened. He first wanted to 345 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 5: talk to somebody that he was very close with and 346 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 5: arguably one of the people that Ted was closest with 347 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 5: in the world, his cousin, Joe Gargin. And I should 348 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 5: note here that Joe Gargan was not simply a cousin. 349 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 5: I have cousins that I haven't talked to in five years. 350 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 5: He was kind of Ted Kennedy's go to advanced man 351 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 5: who would go and advances Ted to every location that 352 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 5: would go to to prepare everything, and that he actually 353 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 5: lived with the Kennedys as his father and mother had 354 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 5: died tragically at a young age, and so he and 355 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 5: his sister end up living with the Kennedys, and they 356 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 5: feel so indebted to the Kennedy's that actually, and his 357 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 5: sister is Joe Kennedy Senior's nurse who you see in 358 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 5: the film all the way through the rest of his life. 359 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 5: So very close relationship, is my point. So ray La 360 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,719 Speaker 5: Rossa goes inside and he grabs Joe Gargin and the 361 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 5: next thing out of Ted Kennedy's mouth is you better 362 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 5: get Paul Markham too, who is very close with the 363 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 5: Kennedy family and was you know, not more than six 364 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 5: months prior the US Attorney to the State of Massachusetts. 365 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 5: And this is a high power, very intelligent group of 366 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 5: loyal Kennedy campaign friends. Now I do want to point 367 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 5: out really quick on Paul Markham. He's the absolute worst 368 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 5: person at the party to ask for help in any 369 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 5: sort of rescue mission because he's the only person of 370 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 5: the party who is suffering from a significant injury which 371 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 5: he sustained in the boat that they were racing. Actually, 372 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 5: in reality, he got that injury voting on the way 373 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 5: from wherever it was originally docked to Martha's vineyard. We 374 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 5: put it in during the race. I hope that you 375 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 5: don't mind. We thought that that was an acceptable budge. 376 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 5: But so he is walking with a limp throughout the 377 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 5: weekend because he's injured. And yet this is one of 378 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 5: the two people that Ted Kennedy has requested to help. 379 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 5: And according to Gargan's testimony, it was still moments later 380 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 5: before Ted actually explained what was going on, and it 381 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 5: was on their drive over that he explains that there 382 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 5: was an accident and the car has gone off the 383 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 5: bridge and married Joe's inside. And again, strange behavior in 384 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 5: reality and in the movie, and very few people to 385 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 5: care about this inexplicable decision. Joe Gargan and Paul Markham 386 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 5: stripped down to their underwear to jump into the pucha 387 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 5: pan to try to rescue her. I don't understand this, 388 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 5: and I would love to turn it to the host 389 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 5: and see if you can help me. You know, to 390 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 5: this day, I still am plummexed by why two men 391 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 5: trying to save a woman would need to strip down. 392 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 5: It seems like the earthy what have you wanting to 393 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 5: either a make a phone call to somebody more capable 394 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 5: or be just jump right in as someone like my 395 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 5: fans take. 396 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a question that many people, I believe are 397 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: trying to answer. One one argument might be the idea, 398 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: of course, the most immediate argument would be, let's keep 399 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: this between us. Let's uh, let's resolve this, and you know, 400 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: let's get the other person in the vehicle out safely. 401 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: We can all go home, get warm, and then call 402 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: the insurance folks tomorrow. Right, that would be That would 403 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: be the most immediate assumption. 404 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: What do you think, Matt, Well, when you take into 405 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 2: account the roles that all three of this men had. 406 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 2: The third person that was with them, wasn't he what 407 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 2: was his role? Yeah? 408 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 5: Us attorney to the State of Massachusetts. 409 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 2: So okay, So these these are men who have powerful positions. 410 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: And know the law. So there, I believe they're most 411 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: likely saying, on multiple occasions, ted, you've got to call 412 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: the cops. 413 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 2: Yes. So my thought of them stripping down to their 414 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 2: underwear is not maybe a little bit of self preservation 415 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: in that they could put their clothes back on San's 416 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 2: underwear after jumping in and look as though nothing had happened, 417 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: if they needed to have that option, that's my only 418 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: thinking with that regards. 419 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 5: So I'll tell you, making a movie is an evolutionary process, 420 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 5: and we learned a lot throughout writing the script and 421 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 5: coming up with the way to best tell the truth 422 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 5: as we knew it. And so to this point about 423 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 5: what you just said. In the script, you'll see that 424 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 5: the line from Joe Gargan as they're stripping down is 425 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 5: coming back in what clothes? Doesn't give us many options 426 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 5: or something to that effect, And in the movie it 427 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 5: comes across in the sound mixed very deliberately as a 428 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 5: New York Times interview with Donald Trump, and it's just garbled. 429 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 5: But ultimately I feel like that is the right decision 430 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 5: for the movie, because we do know for a fact 431 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 5: that they did strip down, but we really don't know why. 432 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 2: Yeah it, you did a great job making it the 433 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: most plausible version, at least in my mind. So, okay, 434 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: all of this is going down. There's much more to 435 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: the story about what exactly happens following the incident, but 436 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: I kind of want to leave some of that to 437 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: the person who's going to eventually watch the movie. Sure, 438 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 2: so I'd like to jump into while this is occurring, 439 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: What else is happening in the United States and world 440 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: news that kind of exists as a cover for this incident. 441 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know about cover well happening concurrently. 442 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: It's okay, it's not a cover. It provides the a 443 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: one position in a newspaper, right, Well, this other thing 444 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: that's occurring in the news. 445 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 5: Another way to put it is that it is thematically 446 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 5: the most relevant thing that could possibly be happening at 447 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 5: the time. And for me as a writer, it was 448 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 5: one of the reasons why this story had to be 449 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 5: told cinematically for the first time was that this is 450 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 5: the weekend of the moon landing, and so what you 451 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 5: have is the greatest residence of the John F. Kennedy 452 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 5: presidential legacy, the greatest achievement of his older brother, and 453 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 5: possibly the lowest moment for Ted Kennedy as senator. And 454 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 5: considering our premise and our understanding of Ted as a 455 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 5: human being, was that as the youngest Kennedy, he never 456 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 5: expects did the spotlight to be on him, and in fact, 457 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 5: not even John F. Kennedy expected the spotlight to be 458 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 5: on him. Everyone assumed that Joe Junior, the eldest was, 459 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 5: you know, the prodigal son, and then he died tragically 460 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 5: in World War Two, and then that led to, you know, 461 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 5: everyone hoping for John F. Kennedy to run for president, 462 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 5: and obviously he didn't became president. And only after two 463 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 5: more tragedies, with the assassinations of John and Bobby, did 464 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 5: suddenly all the hopes and dreams of the Kennedy legacy 465 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 5: rest on Ted's shoulders. And for us, you know, we 466 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 5: looked at it like as a sort of Shakespearean sort 467 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 5: of tragedy leading into the events of this weekend, and 468 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 5: that's what made it easier to understand how Ted made 469 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 5: some of the wrong decisions that he made that weekend. 470 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: And with this UH, with this confluence of events, we 471 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: see several things happening, right. We see, as Matt said, 472 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: the A one story, the and as you said, Taylor, 473 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: the UH one, one of the high points of JFK's 474 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: career occur at the same time as this tragedy. So 475 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: perhaps there wasn't as much media attention on it as 476 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: they're otherwise would have been, but investigations did occur. And 477 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: one of the things that we noticed in the film 478 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: is that when we fast forward a bit when authorities 479 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: finally do recover Kopecna's body. One one person believes that 480 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: she may have been dead or expired before the accident, 481 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: the argument being that there was not enough water in 482 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: her lungs for her to have drowned. Was this possibility 483 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: actually examined, you know, in real in real life by 484 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: the investigators. 485 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 5: So I want to sort of make clear how Mary 486 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 5: Joe was positioned in the car, So excuse a long 487 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 5: visual description. She was in the backseat of the car, 488 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 5: and that has led to a lot of confusion about, Oh, 489 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 5: maybe she wasn't even writing as a passenger, maybe she 490 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 5: was asleep in the back and all that doesn't make 491 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 5: any sense. Achham's razor tells us that Ted Kennedy testified 492 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 5: under oath that she was as fass at. Her people 493 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 5: all testified that she left. There's reason to believe that 494 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 5: to be very true. What's also very interesting about the 495 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 5: way that she was positioned is that her arms were 496 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 5: the cars upside down, i should say, and her arms 497 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 5: are clutched into the floorboards again upside down in the 498 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 5: car to prop herself up, and her neck is craned 499 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 5: in away where her mouth is fluted upwards and the 500 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 5: only person who saw Mary Joe in the car is 501 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 5: a man named John Ferrar, who was a volunteer for 502 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 5: the fire department I believe, and was the diver that 503 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 5: you know suited up and got into the car to 504 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 5: excavate her out of the vehicle, and he said that 505 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 5: it quote looked like she was gasping for a last 506 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 5: breath of air. And this is where we get into 507 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 5: something really interesting, which is that I I know that 508 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 5: Ted Kennedy assumed that you know, minutes after the accident, 509 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,399 Speaker 5: that she had to have drowned. That's not an unreasonable 510 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 5: conclusion for someone to make. But once you start researching this, 511 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 5: you find out that even before this accident, there's a 512 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 5: woman in New Zealand I believe, and I think you 513 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 5: know the in nineteen sixties who survived for two hours 514 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 5: in a very similar accident in an air pocket. And 515 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 5: because someone called, they were able to get this New 516 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 5: Zealand woman out of the car and save her life. 517 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 5: And that's what John Farrar has said under Rosen when 518 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 5: we talked to him personally, he said, I could have 519 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 5: gotten ound of that car in twenty minutes if someone 520 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 5: had called, but no one called wow. 521 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 2: Jeez. 522 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: So with this in mind, with the questions that came 523 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: into being the night of the incident, the hours and 524 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: days following, or even the years of following, we do 525 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: have some inevitable consequences that we've mentioned before. Let's explore 526 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: those after a word from our sponsor. 527 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone. Let's begin by quickly discussing the political 528 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: machine that was standing directly behind Ted Kennedy. As all 529 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 2: of this is going down, he contacts his father, and 530 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 2: his father, at least according to the film, puts him 531 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: in touch with a whole host of political advisors and 532 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,959 Speaker 2: lawyers who then begin constructing the narrative of what happened there, 533 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: what the official stance is, what the official story is, 534 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 2: and let's just go through just a bit of that 535 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 2: before we hit kind of the aftermath. 536 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a perfect topic to talk about today. 537 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 5: The movie came out in theaters today as we're recording this, 538 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 5: and The New York Times just published an opinion piece 539 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 5: by a gentleman who's writing a new biography about Ted Kennedy, 540 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 5: who inexplicably thinks that this is not something to be 541 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 5: included in the public discussion about Ted Kennedy at the moment, 542 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 5: as he has in this writer's opinion, not moved on 543 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 5: to the public domain. Again, I can't quite understand that. 544 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 5: But his biggest issue with the movie is a theme 545 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 5: that we had to invent, which is that when Ted 546 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 5: returns to the mainland to his hotel, he goes to 547 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 5: the payt pone out front and he calls Hyanna support 548 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 5: where his father, who's a stroke victim and has trouble communicating, 549 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 5: lives and Ted explains to his father in the scene 550 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 5: what has occurred, and he is incredibly remorseful and unsure 551 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 5: of what to do. And the one word that his 552 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 5: father is able to speak is alibi. And this is 553 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 5: conjecture on Andrew in my part, but more it is 554 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 5: talking to an emotional truth and a thematic truth that 555 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 5: we feel is incredibly relevant to Ted. And here's what 556 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 5: I'm trying to say. We know that this accident occurred, 557 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 5: and that Ted didn't report it even after your return 558 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 5: to the Shire town End. And then we also know 559 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 5: that you know, presumably according to Ted Kennedy's testimony, about 560 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 5: an hour after he returned to the shire town In 561 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 5: he went down to talk to a hotel clerk, and 562 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 5: he asked for the time. He's all dry now, there's 563 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 5: nothing visually apparent about him that he's been in an accident, 564 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 5: and the hotel clerk said that although something seemed off, 565 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 5: there was nothing unusual about his appearance. Now, asking for 566 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 5: the time is what you do if you're trying to 567 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 5: create an for yourself in a situation where a crime 568 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 5: might have might have occurred. And I do think that, 569 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 5: as we said about the other lines, I'll never be President, 570 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,720 Speaker 5: that he has suggested that he did consider the impact 571 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 5: that this would have on his political career. We've already 572 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 5: discussed the moon landing in the Kennedy legacy and how 573 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 5: much that weighs on his shoulders. I don't think that 574 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 5: it is at all a step too far to say 575 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,479 Speaker 5: that his father's opinion of this probably weighed on him, 576 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 5: and that what he might have concluded is that this 577 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 5: would be a huge black mark on the Kennedy legacy. 578 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 5: And then we know that he did something that looked 579 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 5: a lot like crafting an alibi, and that's how the 580 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 5: scene came to be. And I have no shame in 581 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 5: admitting that it is an invention. There are phone records 582 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 5: that imply that calls were made from that payphone, collect calls, 583 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 5: et cetera. I don't know, but I feel like it 584 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 5: is incredibly relevant to his character and the emotion that 585 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 5: he was going through. 586 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,240 Speaker 4: And the other thing that people I've seen write about 587 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 4: as well, specifically with the alibi line, that Joe Kennedy, 588 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 4: you know, had had a massive stroke and couldn't really speak. 589 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 4: And it was actually something that Taylor and I really 590 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 4: discussed that lincol when we were writing the script, because 591 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 4: obviously we wanted to get it actually correct, and we 592 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 4: knew that he had a stroke, and he knew that 593 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 4: he that his speech was impaired, and so what we 594 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 4: ended up doing is finding a recording of President Johnson 595 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 4: calling Joseph Kennedy from the Oval office and Ted Kennedy 596 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 4: was actually in the Oval office with LBJ as well, 597 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 4: and in this recording you can hear exactly what Joe 598 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 4: Kennedy sounds like, which is that he's able to utter 599 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 4: actual words and that he's got the heavy breathing on 600 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 4: the other end of the line. And you know, I 601 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 4: just think it's important that people know that we did 602 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 4: our due diligence and as much resource as we could, 603 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 4: and that this is factual as possible. 604 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 5: And I should say this call with President Justin took 605 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 5: place in nineteen sixty eight, so, you know, just over 606 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 5: a year before these events. And although Joseph Kennedy's health 607 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 5: may have deteriorated from there even at the time, a 608 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 5: line in the movie that Ted says is in this 609 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 5: phone call, and that's you're still the man with all 610 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 5: the influence, referring to his father. And that's why it 611 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 5: was not surprising to us or too far of a 612 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 5: stretch when we read the incredibly influential advisors that were 613 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 5: at high enda'sport as soon as Ted arrived, included people 614 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 5: like former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, included John F. 615 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 5: Kennedy's speech writer, Ted Sorenson, Congressman, great lawyers Burke Marshall, 616 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 5: Sergeant Shriver, just you know, men of great historical santa 617 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 5: all were already convene for helping Ted navigate his way 618 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 5: out of this crisis. And so Ted in the movie says, 619 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 5: you're still themand with all the influence to his father. 620 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 5: And I don't think that it's you know, too far 621 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 5: of a stretch to suggest that perhaps old Joe was 622 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 5: able to still hold. 623 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: Some strengths agreed at least on our end, that almost 624 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: seems that almost seems without question or perhaps naive to 625 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: assume otherwise. And as we're as we're exploring your collective 626 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: experience writing this screenplay and bringing this story to the 627 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: large screen and thus, you know, to the public at large, 628 00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: we'd like to ask some questions about your experience and 629 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: what you found afterwards. And we'd like to begin by 630 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 1: asking what inspired the two of you to go so 631 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:15,720 Speaker 1: far into this research to pursue this story above other ones. 632 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: Because you had mentioned before that there was maybe some 633 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: controversy about the cinematic look at it, but you conducted interviews, 634 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: you actually walked the road, you delved into court records. 635 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: What was the impetus for you to pursue this despite 636 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: the obstacles that may have been put up in your path. 637 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 5: One word answer, NAVII, A longer but still quotable answer. 638 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 5: Both Andrew and I are lifelong Democrats and incredibly huge 639 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 5: fans of the work that Ted Kennedy did as Senator, 640 00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 5: especially after nineteen eighty and it was actually one of 641 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 5: his most historic moments when he endorsed then Senator Barack 642 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 5: Obama over Hillary Clinton in the two thousand and eighth 643 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 5: primary in what was unexpected and considered by many to 644 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 5: be a game changing moment in that election cycle. And 645 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 5: we were and still are incredibly huge fans of Barack Obama. 646 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 5: I you know, really missed that man in the Oval office. 647 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 5: And so when we were watching Real Time with Bill 648 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 5: Maher that night, Bill Maher was like Ted Kennedy changing 649 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 5: presidential history again. You know, he would have been president 650 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy two had it not been for chap equitics. 651 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 5: And Andrew and I had never heard of this before. 652 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 5: We didn't even know how to spell it when we 653 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 5: went to the Google machine to try to type it 654 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 5: in and figure out what Bill was talking about. And 655 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 5: for us, because this story was undertold and to a 656 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 5: generation you know, younger than my parents, I think, completely obscure, 657 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,240 Speaker 5: that was the reason why we were dying to tell 658 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 5: this story. And it became clear quickly that this was, 659 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 5: you know, an important story and one that a lot 660 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 5: of rumor and conspiracy theories had, you know, gotten a 661 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 5: lot of traction. You know, the Wikipedia is littered with 662 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 5: conspiracy nuts. And for us, that was the reason why 663 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 5: we wanted to get to the truth as best we 664 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 5: could find it. Also, Andrew's dad as a lawyer, and 665 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 5: so I think yeah, Andrew was very inspired, much like 666 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 5: Ted Kennedy, to honor his father's legacy and stick to 667 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 5: the facts as we could find them. 668 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: So, so, what were some of the as as you said, 669 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,280 Speaker 1: the film Chap E Critic has only recently been released 670 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: in theaters, what were some of the things you ran 671 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: into that might be considered obstacles in the course of 672 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: your research, And what have the reactions been like so 673 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: far as as the film has been screened or encountered 674 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:26,439 Speaker 1: by both film critics or analysts, but then also by 675 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: people who have some sort of personal or professional relationship 676 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: with the uh with the individuals in the story. 677 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,280 Speaker 5: I'm going to say something first that sounds like marketing, 678 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 5: but it is the god's honest truth. I have been 679 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 5: overwhelmed by the positive reaction from audiences and film critics 680 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 5: alike about this movie. I knew that we were, you know, 681 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 5: by the time we were making this movie, I finally 682 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 5: understood that we were dealing with what was a third 683 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,880 Speaker 5: rail and political history. And it's like the original source 684 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 5: of what aboutism in our modern political history, and for me, 685 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 5: I expected the reactions to sadly be divided on partisan lines, 686 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 5: But in reality, I have been so eager and excited 687 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 5: to read these reviews and see these audience reactions, and 688 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:31,240 Speaker 5: everyone feels incredibly passionate about how this story has finally 689 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,920 Speaker 5: been told, and even the people that are critical of 690 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,680 Speaker 5: the movie, I think, acknowledge that this did happen and 691 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 5: it's something that deserves reexaminations. 692 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,799 Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more watching this film. My reaction to it, 693 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,120 Speaker 2: specifically to watching that political machine happen, because it's something 694 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 2: that I had imagined after just reading about the story. 695 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 2: Those scenes, I imagine them in my head, and you captured 696 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 2: them almost too well. The unnerving feeling that if a 697 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 2: powerful person gets in trouble, there is this institution that 698 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:17,359 Speaker 2: can come through and basically save you, you know, somewhat by 699 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 2: changing details somewhat, just by controlling the situation and just 700 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 2: by making the optics correct for what you need. I 701 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 2: want to jump to, Well, just we'll say this. There 702 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 2: was a press conference, a televised well, it was more 703 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 2: of a televised statement that Ted Kennedy. 704 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: Gave no questions, no questions at this time. 705 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, you couldn't have anybody there. There are a lot 706 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,760 Speaker 2: of stipulations about it. It was just Ted Kennedy speaking 707 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 2: to the camera and that was on July twenty fifth, 708 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,320 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. And in the film he is having 709 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 2: a just a quick discussion with Joe Gargan and I'm 710 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 2: just going to feed this line and see if you 711 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 2: can give me the one that comes right after it. 712 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:10,280 Speaker 2: Moses had a tempa. Peter betrayed Jesus, I have chap equittic. 713 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,239 Speaker 5: Moses had a temper, but he didn't leave a girl 714 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,280 Speaker 5: at the bottom of the red. 715 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 2: Sta Oh, dude, talk about some screenwriting there, guys. That 716 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 2: hit home like perfectly. It was just an awesome line, 717 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,720 Speaker 2: and it made it really encapsulated everything that you had 718 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,280 Speaker 2: seen and experienced up until that moment. Because Joe's character 719 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 2: played by Ed Helmes, really is kind of the human 720 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 2: side to the story at least it feels that way, 721 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,879 Speaker 2: the conscience that exists within this story. And I really 722 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 2: appreciated that you brought that in in that that moment 723 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 2: of I don't know that the moment where Ted was 724 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 2: trying to reach greatness to be a Kennedy and he 725 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 2: had to kind of make a decision there about whether 726 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 2: he wanted to move forward as a politician or kind 727 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 2: of let it go. And I just I don't know. 728 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 2: I really appreciate what you did there, and I don't 729 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,720 Speaker 2: really I don't know if I have a question about 730 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 2: that so much. It's not really a question, it's just 731 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. 732 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 5: You know, I certainly myself have had moments where, you know, 733 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 5: Chris Farley and Paul McCartney come to mind. So I 734 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:27,880 Speaker 5: appreciate the question. None question. But to your point, I 735 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 5: do want to say, for the listeners out there, if 736 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 5: you do see the movie, the seame that he's referring to, 737 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:41,880 Speaker 5: Joe Gargin ends up doing something immediately afterwards during the 738 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 5: reading of the televised statement that I actually won't spoil here, 739 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,879 Speaker 5: but I do want to say that, as unbelievable as 740 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 5: it may seem, that is exactly one true and that 741 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,640 Speaker 5: Joe Gargan did in fact suffer the indignity that we 742 00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 5: show him suffering. 743 00:50:59,200 --> 00:50:59,439 Speaker 2: Wow. 744 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: And if you want to learn what we're referring to, 745 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,399 Speaker 1: the best way to do it is to check out 746 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,160 Speaker 1: the film chap Equittic in theaters near you. 747 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, as we're recording this, it's premiering today in theaters. 748 00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: And we want to thank you Taylor and you Andrew 749 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,759 Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show with us and 750 00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: exploring this all too often neglected chapter in American history. 751 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: And folks, as you're thinking about the episode today, you 752 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:42,319 Speaker 1: have to ask yourself, inevitably, how would the course of 753 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 1: history have changed had this incident not occurred, or had 754 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 1: it been processed differently by Kennedy by the media at large. 755 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, you keeeed it up perfectly by saying how would 756 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 5: history have been different? And what I'll say is that now, 757 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 5: after researching for the film and hopefully for your audience 758 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 5: after seeing the film, The movie ends with a sort 759 00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,440 Speaker 5: of you know, jaywalking man on the street interview where 760 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,360 Speaker 5: people are asked what they thought of this televised statement 761 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 5: and more pointedly, would they still vote for him? And 762 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 5: with the you know joy of Monday morning quarterbacking and 763 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 5: knowing all the great things that he did as senator 764 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 5: and that maybe he might have changed presidential election history 765 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,359 Speaker 5: a second time in two thousand and eight with brock Obama. 766 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,320 Speaker 5: For me, one of the driving questions of wanting to 767 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 5: tell the story was was it worth? It was Ted 768 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 5: Kennedy going on to be Senator for so many more years, 769 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,440 Speaker 5: becoming the lion of the Senate and driving through policies 770 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,560 Speaker 5: that I agree with. Was that the right choice? And 771 00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 5: for me, the only answer I have came up with 772 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,040 Speaker 5: was that the truth has no political party. And that 773 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 5: was true in nineteen sixty nine, and that is especially 774 00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,839 Speaker 5: true today in twenty eighteen. The midterms are coming up 775 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,840 Speaker 5: twenty twenty. I would love another reexamination of the truth 776 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 5: for executive branch. So that's my point that I had 777 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 5: to make. 778 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,880 Speaker 1: That is a fantastic point and very well said. The 779 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,399 Speaker 1: truth has no allegiance other than to the facts. And 780 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: that's our show for today, folks, our interview with Taylor 781 00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:37,520 Speaker 1: Allen and Andrew Logan, the screenwriters of chap Equittic in 782 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:42,080 Speaker 1: theaters near you as we record this and as you 783 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,799 Speaker 1: listen to it. We will be back very soon with 784 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,520 Speaker 1: more stuff they don't want you to know. In the meantime, 785 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:53,839 Speaker 1: you can find us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and. 786 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,040 Speaker 2: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you 787 00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,200 Speaker 2: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can 788 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 2: get into contact with us in a number of different ways. 789 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 2: One of the best is to give us a call. 790 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,760 Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. 791 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,040 Speaker 2: If you don't want to do that, you can send 792 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 2: us a good old fashioned email. 793 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,879 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 794 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 795 00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:23,759 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 796 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,720 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.