Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I
Speaker 1: am your host, Jen Kirkman. Today my guest is Liz Fosslin.
Speaker 1: She is the co author of the national bestseller Big Feelings,
Speaker 1: and we will talk about a few concepts from that
Speaker 1: book in today's interview. I appreciate the title Big Feelings
Speaker 1: because this book is about anxiety, the anxiety of uncertainty,
Speaker 1: going into anxious fixing instead of sitting figuring out our
Speaker 1: feelings in any given moment. It's the book is a
Speaker 1: lot about burnout work burnout, which is obviously a certain
Speaker 1: kind of anxiety as well. But I appreciate that the
Speaker 1: overall tone is thinking about it in terms of feelings, right,
Speaker 1: because what's underneath a lot of anxiety is feelings. You know,
Speaker 1: we are a perfect mix. If you've learned anything from
Speaker 1: last week's episode, Joseph Lead neuroscientists that yes, we are
Speaker 1: a batch of chemicals and memories and reactions, but we
Speaker 1: have emotions and we have human feelings, and everybody may
Speaker 1: experience the same symptoms of anxiety, sweaty palms, rapid heartbeat,
Speaker 1: panic attacks, whatnot. There's this universal symptoms of anxiety and panic.
Speaker 1: But we are each unique creatures with our specific feelings
Speaker 1: in any given moment, and a lot of times are
Speaker 1: feelings inform how severe our anxiety is around a certain situation,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times it's important to get under
Speaker 1: the hood and figure out what we're really feeling. You know,
Speaker 1: it's incredible that we have such simple and easy solutions
Speaker 1: to lower our heart rate and to pass through panic.
Speaker 1: As doctor clear Weeks once said, but let's not discount
Speaker 1: that we are humans with feelings, and if we can
Speaker 1: look at our feelings, we can decrease our anxiety, and
Speaker 1: we can also just feel better. I mean, forget the
Speaker 1: pressure of have I decreased my anxiety? We can just
Speaker 1: understand ourselves better, which helps us make decisions, which helps
Speaker 1: us become who we are looking to become. And although
Speaker 1: the book Big Feelings covers many topics and does so
Speaker 1: really expertly, I highly recommend this book. I wanted to
Speaker 1: really zero in on one or two chapters, and the
Speaker 1: ones that we talked about are uncertain t and how
Speaker 1: do we actually practice sitting with our uncertainty? You know
Speaker 1: what does that mean? Because every episode. I mean, in
Speaker 1: the first episode of this podcast, Dr jud Brewer said
Speaker 1: the only thing that's certain in life is that there
Speaker 1: is uncertainty. And that's true, and that's great and that's smart.
Speaker 1: But I had other things to talk to him about,
Speaker 1: so we didn't drill down into it, and now is
Speaker 1: the time to answer, Okay, I get it. I'm willing
Speaker 1: to sit with uncertainty. I accept that life is uncertain.
Speaker 1: I know I can't control a lot of life. But
Speaker 1: what do you mean sit with the uncertainty? Am I
Speaker 1: supposed to literally sit on my bed or something? And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that is one thing you can do, but
Speaker 1: there's more to it. It's just about stopping for a
Speaker 1: minute and asking yourself some questions so you can figure
Speaker 1: out what's going on underneath in that moment. And it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be this deep dive into your childhood
Speaker 1: and you don't have to be a therapist to do it,
Speaker 1: and you don't need a therapist to do that with
Speaker 1: you in the moment. It's it's a very intimate solo
Speaker 1: exercise that you can do. And if you don't like uncertainty,
Speaker 1: even though you accept it and you are very much
Speaker 1: aware that there's no getting up, there's no getting through
Speaker 1: life without it being full of uncertainty. There's some really
Speaker 1: interesting ways to look at it, because the science and
Speaker 1: the data back up that people hate uncertainty so much
Speaker 1: that they would rather know for sure that something bad
Speaker 1: is going to happen tomorrow. If presented with the option,
Speaker 1: something bad can happen tomorrow and you can know about it.
Speaker 1: Or I could tell you that you have a fifty
Speaker 1: percent chance of something bad happening tomorrow, which means you
Speaker 1: also have a fifty percent chance of nothing bad happening tomorrow,
Speaker 1: So you can have that knowing that something bad or
Speaker 1: nothing bad or yes, definitely something bad. I'll tell you
Speaker 1: what it is and when. Most people would choose yeah,
Speaker 1: just yeah, give me this something bad and tell me
Speaker 1: when and what instead of taking the risk and then
Speaker 1: maybe nothing that will happen. And within the uncertainty, there's
Speaker 1: also not just the uncertainty of if I walk outside,
Speaker 1: will a piano fall on my head? But when we
Speaker 1: do make a plan, I mean we obviously have to
Speaker 1: make a plan at times. You know, we have to
Speaker 1: schedule things. If you have a job, you have to
Speaker 1: create whatever it is you create at your job, you
Speaker 1: have to raise a child. Whatever you're doing, there has
Speaker 1: to be intention and planning behind it, but then there
Speaker 1: has to be accounting for mistakes and uncertainty and just
Speaker 1: things going wrong. And in the book, Liz talks about
Speaker 1: how even scientists that NASA say that they make plans,
Speaker 1: but they think of agendas as plans from which we deviate.
Speaker 1: So when you make a plan, learning to be flexible,
Speaker 1: like included in that plan is the flexibility of if
Speaker 1: it deviates from your plan, And that is how to
Speaker 1: set yourself up for having less anxiety when something deviates
Speaker 1: because you took the uncertainty out of it. You were
Speaker 1: certain that there was uncertainty in your plan. And then
Speaker 1: we talk about work burnout, something very near and dear
Speaker 1: to my heart, and Liz explains that you cannot cure
Speaker 1: work burnout with a you know, a weekend away and
Speaker 1: then go right back into what's burning you out. It
Speaker 1: really takes kind of sitting and assessing what you want
Speaker 1: out of life and are you the person that you
Speaker 1: aspire to be in your head or are you living
Speaker 1: your values? If you're saying, you know, money is not
Speaker 1: important to me, I don't want to chase something because
Speaker 1: I don't really care about my legacy or I don't
Speaker 1: care about being the most productive worker and winning the
Speaker 1: award or for best attendance or whatever. You know, then
Speaker 1: are you living according to that? Are you saying I'm
Speaker 1: someone who wants to spend more time with family and
Speaker 1: friends and get it out in nature more, or sleep more,
Speaker 1: read more, or just have more free time? Are you
Speaker 1: actually doing that? And and how much of that is
Speaker 1: again within your control? So, and with burnout, it's something
Speaker 1: that most people don't know they are experiencing until they
Speaker 1: hit that wall to where you know, you might end
Speaker 1: up sick in the hospital. You might end up just
Speaker 1: saying I can't do this anymore, you know, leaving a job.
Speaker 1: Who knows how burnout could affect you, but most people
Speaker 1: don't address it until it's like at the breaking point.
Speaker 1: And there are signs of burnout along the way that
Speaker 1: seem kind of normal, like they don't seem like burnout signs.
Speaker 1: One of them is called revenge bedtime procrastination, which is
Speaker 1: when you go to bed and you want to sleep
Speaker 1: and you love sleeping and you can sleep, you don't
Speaker 1: have insomnia, but you have felt so just like you
Speaker 1: have no control over your schedule. Everyone wants something from
Speaker 1: you. You You didn't. You didn't get a minute to yourself
Speaker 1: except maybe when you went to Pete. You didn't get
Speaker 1: a minute to yourself that day, And damn it, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get that time. Now. You're gonna go to bed
Speaker 1: and you're gonna scroll your phone and look at the
Speaker 1: internet or play a game or whatever, even though you
Speaker 1: desperately need sleep, and this will cut into your sleep,
Speaker 1: which will set you up for being exhausted the next day.
Speaker 1: Hence you're on the road to burn out. But it
Speaker 1: is the only way you can think to get time
Speaker 1: for yourself. Even if, again, if you were to schedule
Speaker 1: and plan your life and dream big, you wouldn't say
Speaker 1: the best way I can spend time with myself is
Speaker 1: playing a game on my phone two in the morning,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's things like that that have become
Speaker 1: so normalized that are actually signs of burnout. So we
Speaker 1: talked about that as well. So let's just get into
Speaker 1: it so you can actually here the genius of my guest,
Speaker 1: Liz fosse Len, who ill tell you a little bit
Speaker 1: about right now. Liz is the co author and illustrator
Speaker 1: of the national bestseller Big Feelings, which again she co
Speaker 1: authored with Molly west Duffy. Liz is an expert on
Speaker 1: how to make work better. She's the head of Content
Speaker 1: and Communications at WHUMO. She helps teams and leaders develop
Speaker 1: the skills and habits that allow them to unlock their
Speaker 1: full potential. She regularly leads interactive, scientifically backed workshops about
Speaker 1: how to build resilience, help remote workers avoid burnout, and
Speaker 1: effectively harness emotion as a leader. And again, you can
Speaker 1: find more information about Liz in the show notes. And
Speaker 1: I hope that you enjoy this conversation. I'm going to
Speaker 1: be um awkwardly reading to you from your book that
Speaker 1: you wrote with Molly west Duffy, Big Feelings, How to
Speaker 1: Be Okay when Things are not Okay. And I wanted
Speaker 1: to start with one of the chapters in your book,
Speaker 1: which is Uncertainty. And I you know, obviously uncertainty has
Speaker 1: come up on this podcast before and one of my guests,
Speaker 1: I think my first guest, Dr Judge Brewer, said the
Speaker 1: only thing we can be certain of is that there
Speaker 1: is uncertainty. But something about reading this in your book
Speaker 1: made me realize we need to go over this again,
Speaker 1: because as you wrote, UM, myths about uncertainty, you say
Speaker 1: myth number one, certainty is attainable. And so I think,
Speaker 1: even though people have heard a million times that the
Speaker 1: only thing certain about life is that it's uncertain, I
Speaker 1: still do think there's something in our heads that goes well. No,
Speaker 1: I think we can I think we can get a
Speaker 1: lot of certainty. I think we can try to get
Speaker 1: some more. And so can you give you had said that, um,
Speaker 1: Behavioral scientists have shown that we're overly optimistic about the
Speaker 1: things we want to happen, but we tend to overlook
Speaker 1: longer term shifts, and we overemphasize the importance of new
Speaker 1: information that fits into our existing beliefs. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of a mouthful. Can you kind of give me an
Speaker 1: example and game that out for me? What what that is? What?
Speaker 1: What does our brain actually do to think we have certainty? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's additional research, I mean, all kinds of studies
Speaker 1: that show that humans hate uncertainty, Like we would rather
Speaker 1: know for sure that something bad is going to happen
Speaker 1: tomorrow then have a fifty chance of that's something bad happening,
Speaker 1: because in the former we can plan for it, and
Speaker 1: it just it feels like we still have some semblance
Speaker 1: of control. So because we have this deep aversion to uncertainty,
Speaker 1: our brains play all kinds of tricks on us to
Speaker 1: make us feel like we can predict the future. We're
Speaker 1: somehow different than everybody else on the planet. And so
Speaker 1: one is like if you, let's say you decide you
Speaker 1: want to go on an international trip and the hotel
Speaker 1: you were kind of looking at suddenly has a sale
Speaker 1: on hotel rooms, You're going to see that It's like,
Speaker 1: this is the sign. This is like I should go
Speaker 1: on this. This is confirmation by us essentially, But if
Speaker 1: the flight tickets go up, you're just not going to
Speaker 1: read that heavily into that. Um. And so that's an
Speaker 1: example M again just try like picking certain information to
Speaker 1: support what we kind of already want to happen or
Speaker 1: want to believe about the future. UM. You know. That's
Speaker 1: also I see this a lot recently with economic uncertainty,
Speaker 1: where people if they really believe, let's say the housing
Speaker 1: market is going to go down and I think no
Speaker 1: one quite knows it's going to happen, yet, they'll see
Speaker 1: like one house on the market that's been on the
Speaker 1: market longer than normal and take that as like, this
Speaker 1: is the indicator that I'm right, And then if a
Speaker 1: house cells really quickly, they'll be like if that's that's
Speaker 1: just a blip. Um. So there's lots of examples of this,
Speaker 1: but very common bias that we're susceptible too. And so
Speaker 1: the danger in this because I know someone could say, well,
Speaker 1: that's great, you've got a great attitude. You know, the
Speaker 1: flights are going down, and so you your dream trip,
Speaker 1: and you don't you don't notice the negative that the
Speaker 1: hotels are are going up or not on sale. I
Speaker 1: could see someone saying that life, what's wrong with that?
Speaker 1: You're seeing the positive? But I think the bigger picture
Speaker 1: is probably that if something doesn't work out right, there's
Speaker 1: like this extra disappointment because you were approaching it from
Speaker 1: a place of certainty and like maybe mild vagueness in
Speaker 1: some ways. Is that with the dangerous Is that like
Speaker 1: then that could lead to I don't know whatever, beating
Speaker 1: yourself up or anxiety or something. Yeah. Absolutely, when we
Speaker 1: overestimate how much control we have over the future, or
Speaker 1: have too high expectations, you're absolutely right. Then when something
Speaker 1: doesn't work out we kind of put it on ourselves.
Speaker 1: We beat ourselves up for it. We think it's our
Speaker 1: faults somehow. Um. And it's also it prevents us from
Speaker 1: making rational decisions. Right if you write, if the flights
Speaker 1: go up too much, maybe you shouldn't take the trip
Speaker 1: right now, like there's a lot of stuff that. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it prevents us also from just being flexible
Speaker 1: as things change, right, And yeah, I we remember when
Speaker 1: I had a fear of flying, I would look for
Speaker 1: any little sign I could, depending on what I was
Speaker 1: looking for that day. Sometimes I wanted confirmation that I
Speaker 1: should not take this play because it was dangerous. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I wanted reassurance that it would be okay. But I
Speaker 1: could read into anything. And it's like if I looked
Speaker 1: at a flight one day and it went up the
Speaker 1: next day, instead of learning, oh, well, you looked on
Speaker 1: on Monday and that's when flight prices go up. You know,
Speaker 1: I would think, oh my god, I can't afford this,
Speaker 1: so I'm not going to go, and I just saved
Speaker 1: my life, you know. I would look at it that way,
Speaker 1: and it's like none of that is happening. And at
Speaker 1: the very least, even though I guess no harm is
Speaker 1: coming to me. By doing that, I'm really training my
Speaker 1: brain to believe every thought I have. Totally. It's funny
Speaker 1: as you bring that up. I also sometimes get nervous
Speaker 1: about flying, and it reminds me when Molly and I
Speaker 1: were interviewing people as we were writing this book about uncertainty,
Speaker 1: many people said that what helped them move forward was
Speaker 1: asking themselves like, what's the worst thing that could happen?
Speaker 1: And then they would say, you know, the worst thing
Speaker 1: wasn't actually that bad, and then it it just helped
Speaker 1: me feel more calm. That has never worked for me
Speaker 1: because I'm a catastrophizer, So for me, the worst thing
Speaker 1: that could happen is like catastrophically bad. It's not just
Speaker 1: like a little thing. It's like I will come up
Speaker 1: with a dark, dark scenario that is terrifying, and I
Speaker 1: will not move forward. So what I've found helpful is
Speaker 1: also to ask like, what is the likelihood of this
Speaker 1: worst case scenario? And usually it's infinitesimally small. Um. So
Speaker 1: I just for anyone out there who has gotten the
Speaker 1: advice what's the worst that could happen? It might not
Speaker 1: work for you. And if you do find yourself obsessing
Speaker 1: over a horrible worst case scenario. You can pull it
Speaker 1: back a little bit by saying, how, like, what is
Speaker 1: the actual probability that this is going to happen? It's
Speaker 1: probably far and away not the most likely outcome. That's
Speaker 1: really smart advice. And yeah, because when someone would say
Speaker 1: that to me, what's the worst that could happen? I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: do you think I'm an amateur at this? I've already
Speaker 1: gained out the worst that could happen. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: nervous about booking this flight or you know, taking this
Speaker 1: road trip. I mean, you can't out catastrophize a catastrophizer,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't always help. I mean, you know, I've
Speaker 1: done exercises where I do just um let myself actually
Speaker 1: really feel with that all might feel like and it
Speaker 1: does bring it around too well. I ultimately have no control.
Speaker 1: But I think that the example you gave is the
Speaker 1: likelihood is a great example of if the other one
Speaker 1: doesn't work for people. And I think this brings me
Speaker 1: to your other myth that you say about uncertainty is
Speaker 1: that anxiety accurately reflects risk. So is that sort of
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, that there's a mismatch between house
Speaker 1: stressed we feel about something and the likelihood that will happen. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: so when we it's normal to feel anxiety in the
Speaker 1: face of uncertainty. But it's really easy for us to
Speaker 1: lean into that and and I believe that it's our
Speaker 1: intuition rather than just like a bunch of scrambled noise um.
Speaker 1: And that's it's hard to figure out, you know, what
Speaker 1: is actually my gut instinct, what is just my anxiety speaking.
Speaker 1: But one research study that I found really fascinating was
Speaker 1: there were researchers. They split people randomly into two groups,
Speaker 1: and then one group had a chance of getting harmless
Speaker 1: but painful electric shock, and the other group had a
Speaker 1: fifty percent chance. And then the researchers said to each group, like,
Speaker 1: how much are you willing to pay not to get
Speaker 1: this shock? And so you would think that the group
Speaker 1: that had a lower percentage chance would pay less, because
Speaker 1: that just sort of rational. We are not rational creatures.
Speaker 1: So the two groups paid exactly the same, and so
Speaker 1: again goes to show them how we per how afraid
Speaker 1: we feel like we're actually more anxious often when things
Speaker 1: are uncertain than when they're sure. And so even it
Speaker 1: could be that actually, like the fact that you're so
Speaker 1: nervous about what might happen tomorrow just means that there's
Speaker 1: a small chance something bad will happen. But that's so
Speaker 1: stressful that that's generating more anxiety in you than knowing
Speaker 1: like tomorrow I'm going to have this like dentist appointment
Speaker 1: that I'm really dreading. You might dread it, but you
Speaker 1: might not be as anxious. Um So I think just
Speaker 1: important to keep that in mind and not just let
Speaker 1: yourself like lean into this anxiety and see it as
Speaker 1: this means for sure that something terrible is going to happen.
Speaker 1: But I think that is tough for anxious people to
Speaker 1: be told, you know, go with your gut feeling. It's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know my gut. I've never had an organic
Speaker 1: gut feeling. I've only had these a weird paranoid And
Speaker 1: even people can do it in the positive sense, you know.
Speaker 1: You see it all the time when people eat someone
Speaker 1: they like and as having a really good feeling about
Speaker 1: this person and then it ends up like this a
Speaker 1: horrible relationship or doesn't work out. They goes to the
Speaker 1: person or whatever. But it's like Feelings aren't facts, and
Speaker 1: it's okay to have them, but I feel like it's
Speaker 1: all about just keeping them in their place, not believing
Speaker 1: them and going down that rabbit hole. Yeah, I love,
Speaker 1: feelings aren't facts. I think it really is about sitting
Speaker 1: with it, even though it's so uncomfortable. Like I think
Speaker 1: often we just leap to the assumption that what we're
Speaker 1: feeling is a fact, because it's actually more uncomfortable to
Speaker 1: sit with it and try to understand it and just
Speaker 1: breathe through it than to be like, Okay, I feel this,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take action. Like that feels better in
Speaker 1: the moment because we can run from the emotion when
Speaker 1: actually what's most productive is for us to just have
Speaker 1: that really uncomfortable five minutes that actually, long term is
Speaker 1: better for us because we've better understand what's going on
Speaker 1: within ourselves. Yeah, our brains really want to do the opposite,
Speaker 1: because if something if I'm having a terrible feeling about
Speaker 1: something and it's not a fact, technically, that's amazing. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad, you know, um in general that I'm not
Speaker 1: right about this thing. But in the moment, even if
Speaker 1: it's something terrible, I think is going to happen. I
Speaker 1: can't give up being right about it because I think
Speaker 1: I'm protecting myself. And it wasn't until I learned really
Speaker 1: how to feel feeling. And again I always thought I
Speaker 1: was someone who did feel feelings. I can't cry easily.
Speaker 1: I feel all the normal feelings that people feel at
Speaker 1: the right times at funerals and weddings and holidays. But
Speaker 1: when I'm anxious, I have to realize there's a feeling
Speaker 1: underneath there, and if I can sit with it right,
Speaker 1: I always want to take action get rid of the
Speaker 1: anxiety or get rid of the thing that I think
Speaker 1: is causing the anxiety. And often there's that feeling underneath
Speaker 1: that's very human, and it's not one of the fun
Speaker 1: feelings that you feel at a wedding or appropriate feeling
Speaker 1: at funeral. It's like, I don't know, self doubt, own
Speaker 1: or shame or something you know, And it's really hard
Speaker 1: to want to sit with it, even though I guess
Speaker 1: my point is it's really hard to want to sit
Speaker 1: with it even though it really takes it takes a
Speaker 1: lot less time to sit with it, right. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I used to do. I was very similar. I would
Speaker 1: just like run from feelings because it felt productive. It
Speaker 1: felt like, oh, and I can do it all. This
Speaker 1: is a motivational tool or whatever. Um, and so I
Speaker 1: would do something psychologists called anxious fixing, which you're sort
Speaker 1: of describing, which is you feel a lot of anxiety,
Speaker 1: and so you just start doing stuff. You vacuum the floor,
Speaker 1: you wash the dishes, you get through your inbox, you
Speaker 1: answer d ms on Twitter, whatever it might be, and
Speaker 1: so you it feels good in the moment to cross
Speaker 1: things off your to do list, and it kind of
Speaker 1: distracts you from your anxiety. But usually at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, what's happened is that you haven't addressed
Speaker 1: the root causes of what's making you anxious. You have
Speaker 1: and sat with that emotion, and so now not only
Speaker 1: are you exhausted because you've been running around in a frenzy,
Speaker 1: but you also haven't made that anxiety go away. So
Speaker 1: it's sort of worse at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: Even though while you're frantically trying to get to in
Speaker 1: box zero, it feels like you have control and everything's good. Um.
Speaker 1: So you know it's the next time you feel this urge.
Speaker 1: I say this to myself all the time. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't have to empty the dishwasher. We need to
Speaker 1: sit and understand where the anxiety has come from from.
Speaker 1: That's long term what's better for you. It's so hard,
Speaker 1: and I definitely am an anxious fixer. And I love
Speaker 1: it to do list and I love to see in
Speaker 1: box go to zero. I love everything crossed off. But
Speaker 1: I know when I'm doing it in a way that like,
Speaker 1: none of this needs to be done today. And it's
Speaker 1: not just oh but I'm super productive. Why not? It's
Speaker 1: like something's under there. And if I managed to get
Speaker 1: all the two dues done by the time it's time
Speaker 1: to go to bed, I have that feeling. It's like
Speaker 1: an emotional like I ate too much ice cream feeling.
Speaker 1: I don't feel right. I might not feel anxious, like
Speaker 1: my palms are sweaty, but I just feel bad, just
Speaker 1: the most descriptive I can think of. And it feels like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe I should have meditated, or maybe I should have
Speaker 1: just journaled or sat there and been like what is
Speaker 1: this feeling? Sometimes it's really nothing and it's like what
Speaker 1: is this feeling? I don't know. I just feel crappy today,
Speaker 1: all right, you know. And sometimes it's a bigger thing,
Speaker 1: which is like, I'm afraid to do this projects what
Speaker 1: if I fail? And then you know, and I really
Speaker 1: when I was reading the book and I saw the
Speaker 1: anxious fixing, I was like, oh, yeah, I do that,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm not willing to stop doing
Speaker 1: Yeah for me too. And it's you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: not the it's not the worst, right, there's lots of
Speaker 1: far worse coping mechanisms um And I think even just
Speaker 1: getting to the point where you could be aware of
Speaker 1: it can be helpful because it's like, Okay, maybe I
Speaker 1: do need to get to inbox zero and I'm going
Speaker 1: to use this anxiety to fuel that, But then I
Speaker 1: really do need to come to it and explore it more.
Speaker 1: I think it's easier for me to do because I
Speaker 1: live alone, But in the times when I didn't live alone,
Speaker 1: if I lived at the partner, had a roommate or whatever,
Speaker 1: it's very Actually, that kind of energy is very off
Speaker 1: putting to other people. You know, It's like they can
Speaker 1: feel what you're doing and it can get a little
Speaker 1: hectic and like you kind of end up ignoring the
Speaker 1: people in your life. So I feel like I can
Speaker 1: get away with it right now because I'm I'm living
Speaker 1: alone and I don't have to answer to anybody. But
Speaker 1: when I would anxious fix with other people, like directly
Speaker 1: living with me, it really was a problem. And I
Speaker 1: didn't see it back then. I thought like, what, I'm
Speaker 1: getting things done and I think they could tell, but
Speaker 1: you don't have any bandwidth for me or for anything else.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I feel like it's something that
Speaker 1: I don't know it can really affect everyone else in
Speaker 1: our lives. Yeah, that resonates a lot. I think I
Speaker 1: even had the This was before I did all this
Speaker 1: research and when I was much more emotionally re asked.
Speaker 1: I even had the reaction of like, look at me,
Speaker 1: I'm so productive, Get on my level. What are you
Speaker 1: doing right? Why is everyone nailing it like this? Yeah,
Speaker 1: like oh my god, my my boyfriends are lazy or
Speaker 1: my friends are so late. Yeah, totally, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: you need to tell so we'll be right back. So
Speaker 1: when you talked about the anxious fixing, you know, we
Speaker 1: always say okay, sit with uncertainty, but like someone listening
Speaker 1: is going to be like, yeah, I keep hearing that,
Speaker 1: but what the hell do you mean? Do you mean,
Speaker 1: I literally sit on my bed and just sit there, like,
Speaker 1: can you give me some um examples of how to
Speaker 1: if you catch yourself anxious fixing and you go, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna explore what's really going on, Like what can people?
Speaker 1: I know this sounds kind of productive, but do or
Speaker 1: not do? Yeah, so it might if some of it
Speaker 1: is being on your bed literally sitting with it. But
Speaker 1: then the next step it's not. It's not just sitting
Speaker 1: down and be like I'm anxious and then moving on.
Speaker 1: It's really starting to turn your anxiety into fears. So
Speaker 1: anxiety is this sort of instinctually nebulous, bad feeling we
Speaker 1: have in the face of uncertainty, and a fear is
Speaker 1: tied to something specific. So fears are actually more useful
Speaker 1: in a way because they are again indicative of what
Speaker 1: we're actually afraid of happening, and therefore we can take
Speaker 1: action about it. So let's say I have a blood phobia,
Speaker 1: like I hate getting my blood drawn. Um, I've actually
Speaker 1: been in like cognitive behavioral therapy for it, Like it's
Speaker 1: a very big deal for me, and so what's helped
Speaker 1: me is the day before I always have just like
Speaker 1: all this frantic energy, and so it's to sit down
Speaker 1: and say, like, what are the specific scenarios that I'm
Speaker 1: afraid of, And in that case, it's like kind of
Speaker 1: just envisioning. Okay, I'm afraid of past thing out. I'm
Speaker 1: just afraid of, like that moment of walking into the hospital,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid of, you know, I'm going to stop there
Speaker 1: in case other people have the same book beyond just
Speaker 1: like I think it's just but it does help me
Speaker 1: feel a little more in control because it's it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I can do that. I've done this before, and in
Speaker 1: that case it is like, Okay, if I pass out,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be terrible. It's not fun, but it's also
Speaker 1: not the end of the world. It has happened to
Speaker 1: be before I survived, Like they know how to handle
Speaker 1: it there Um and that it's again it's turning it
Speaker 1: into specifics and then starting to think through what you're
Speaker 1: going to do in those different scenarios how likely they are,
Speaker 1: and that usually helps me relax. Um. The other thing
Speaker 1: I'll say is it is really important to draw a
Speaker 1: boundary when you're doing this around what's within your control
Speaker 1: and what's not. So for example, if I said I'm
Speaker 1: afraid if as I'm walking to the hospital that I'll
Speaker 1: get hit by a car. I can look around, you know,
Speaker 1: but like basically it's just like I'm not even gonna
Speaker 1: worry about this, and so I'm going to put this
Speaker 1: into this like beyond category of things that are beyond
Speaker 1: my control versus within is taking some deep breaths, you know,
Speaker 1: reminding myself I've done this before. Um So it's sitting
Speaker 1: with it, whatever that might look like for you, turning
Speaker 1: it into specific fears, and then thinking through like which
Speaker 1: of these fears can I do something about and which
Speaker 1: are kind of just not even really worth my attention
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, you see in the book it's separate
Speaker 1: the withins from the beyonds, And I want to get
Speaker 1: into that because I was really excited about that. It
Speaker 1: was something I hadn't heard before. But I want to
Speaker 1: go back a little bit to the fears. I like
Speaker 1: the notion of if you're catching yourself doing anxious fixing,
Speaker 1: you kind of need to get in touch with what's
Speaker 1: really going on. I like the notion of thinking about
Speaker 1: sitting wherever you're going to sit and asking, you know,
Speaker 1: what I'm afraid of right now? Because I feel like
Speaker 1: it's a little less psychobabble, a little less deep feelings,
Speaker 1: because some people for for them, they there's a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of symptoms of different anxiety disorders where people really
Speaker 1: do have trouble naming and feeling feeling of feeling that
Speaker 1: can be overwhelming, or sometimes we go too deep, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, did I have trauma that I don't remember?
Speaker 1: And like we're so worried at something big, And so
Speaker 1: if it is as simple as can I start with,
Speaker 1: is there a fear going on? Then it's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have to get my blood drawn tomorrow, or I'm
Speaker 1: procrastinating on a project. And then you can just take
Speaker 1: it from there instead of going, I don't know what
Speaker 1: it is, and I maybe I need like seven therapisiness.
Speaker 1: And and then what I like from there is you're
Speaker 1: not asking someone to think of the worst case. You're
Speaker 1: asking someone to just think of what you're afraid of,
Speaker 1: which often isn't the worst case. It's just I don't
Speaker 1: like the sensation of the needle, or I don't like
Speaker 1: speaking in front of people or whatever. And I think
Speaker 1: even just knowing that TA makes that urge. We have
Speaker 1: to cover it up. So, in other words, let's say
Speaker 1: someone has your fear of blood stuff, they're anxious fixing
Speaker 1: their vacuuming there, whatever, And if they sit and take
Speaker 1: a minute, label the fear, recognize it, and just make
Speaker 1: a little plan for themselves for the next day, maybe
Speaker 1: it takes away that urge to cover up the feelings.
Speaker 1: And if they weren't anxious fixing, and they hadn't covered
Speaker 1: up the feelings, like maybe they would do something else,
Speaker 1: like have a few glasses of wine. Now they're hungover
Speaker 1: and dehydrated, it's going to make the blood work even worse.
Speaker 1: It's hard to drop blood when you're so they're just
Speaker 1: it just seems like it's a good stopper for doing
Speaker 1: kind of maladaptive things that aren't going to help. And
Speaker 1: so for some people it could be anxious fixing. For
Speaker 1: other people it could be like getting drunk, you know,
Speaker 1: or I don't know, they buy a pack of cigarettes,
Speaker 1: or they pick a fight with someone like it could
Speaker 1: just be things that make more drama. And I feel
Speaker 1: like at the very least, like stopping and identifying a
Speaker 1: fear or something, at the very least, even if it
Speaker 1: doesn't stop your fear, it like stops you from taking
Speaker 1: actions that aren't that helpful, which then will create more drama,
Speaker 1: which then makes you more anxious. Yeah, exactly. And something
Speaker 1: you alluded to that I want to make explicit to
Speaker 1: is it doesn't get rid of it completely, but it
Speaker 1: makes it far less likely that we judge ourselves. So
Speaker 1: in the case where it's like I have so much
Speaker 1: anxiety I need seven therapists, I think that's often where
Speaker 1: we layer on I'm this anxious, anxiety riddled person, who
Speaker 1: could ever love me? There's so much wrong with me?
Speaker 1: How have I not gotten over this? Versus if it's
Speaker 1: I'm afraid of getting my blood drawn. Yeah, maybe there's
Speaker 1: still some self judgment there, but basically like that seems reasonable, um,
Speaker 1: and it's it's a lot. I think we do this
Speaker 1: so often when we have a stigmatized emotion like anxiety,
Speaker 1: like the like anger, where instead of just sitting with
Speaker 1: it and exploring it, we immediately jump to action, or
Speaker 1: we jump to I'm a horrible person for having this
Speaker 1: emotion in the first place, and then we jumped to
Speaker 1: really destructive action. Sometimes, truly, the best advice is just
Speaker 1: breathe through it, just and if it's not if you
Speaker 1: can't do ninety seconds, do five and then do five again,
Speaker 1: and then do five again. And I think actually going
Speaker 1: through I've heard this from I live in San Francisco,
Speaker 1: so I have a lot of friends who have done
Speaker 1: like silent meditation treats and all that jazz um, And
Speaker 1: what a lot of them say is you can build
Speaker 1: the muscle of just living through something really uncomfortable, and
Speaker 1: once you've done it a couple of times, it actually
Speaker 1: really helps you deal with those bigger emotions, sometimes even
Speaker 1: painful emotions of just like this too will pass, even
Speaker 1: if all I do is sit here, like I will
Speaker 1: get to a better place. And you talked about adopting
Speaker 1: them intra of I am a person who is learning
Speaker 1: blank instead of that, I can't believe I still have this.
Speaker 1: I can't you know, blah blah blah, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a great I'm really into any
Speaker 1: kind of mantra or positive affirmation that isn't bullshit, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm going to have this, which is adding more
Speaker 1: pressure on the person, but it's just true. You know,
Speaker 1: I am a person who is learning how to feel
Speaker 1: my feelings more or get more comfortable whatever. I don't know,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, I just think that that's really a
Speaker 1: powerful thing. Yeah, it's been really helpful for me. I Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember I lost my father in law to cancer
Speaker 1: about a year ago, and I could even at that
Speaker 1: time since in myself a couple of weeks later that
Speaker 1: I was like, I should just be feeling better. I should.
Speaker 1: I had all these I should and instead of said like,
Speaker 1: I'm just learning to live of with the loss of
Speaker 1: someone that was a huge part of my life and
Speaker 1: that I've had a lot of excited hopes for in
Speaker 1: the future. Um, And that just allowed me to give
Speaker 1: myself some more grace. And that's something Molly and I
Speaker 1: say over and over in the book is I think
Speaker 1: so much self help centers around we'll fix you. Do this,
Speaker 1: you won't feel anxiety again. And that's a completely unrealistic expectation.
Speaker 1: It's more about recovery and progress. Like I it's actually
Speaker 1: comforting to me to be like, I will never not
Speaker 1: be anxious. That's kind of I'm wired. But it's like
Speaker 1: that's fine. I don't have to listen to it as much.
Speaker 1: I'm learning to live with it. I've made a lot
Speaker 1: of progress and that should be celebrated, and it again,
Speaker 1: it's set some more reasonable expectation than why haven't I
Speaker 1: gotten rid of this? Well, you might never and that's
Speaker 1: also totally fine. Like some days you might just wake
Speaker 1: up and you're sad for no reason. That's also okay.
Speaker 1: I have that too, um, but kind of accepting that
Speaker 1: and be like, I'm just a person who needs to
Speaker 1: learn how to live with a sad day once in
Speaker 1: a while. It's just I'm just like, okay, so I'm
Speaker 1: eating ice cream and watching Netflix, going for a walk
Speaker 1: tomorrow will be better. And that's such a healthier response.
Speaker 1: And as you say in the book, you know you
Speaker 1: don't need all of the answers right now, and that
Speaker 1: was something that once I came to that, that's very
Speaker 1: comforting to me too, because if I'm sitting there thinking
Speaker 1: I need answers right now, then that's going to lead
Speaker 1: to action. And you know, I've always been surprised when
Speaker 1: I sit and I don't know the answers to things,
Speaker 1: whether it's big life questions with you, that's usually what
Speaker 1: I don't know the answers to is is um, whatever
Speaker 1: answer I think I get, I get it when I
Speaker 1: need it. And it makes sense to me then, and
Speaker 1: if I get the answer too soon, it's probably the
Speaker 1: wrong answer. I don't know. There was just something. It's
Speaker 1: it's in that same vein right of just acceptance. I
Speaker 1: guess it is really the big one word description of
Speaker 1: of all of that. Yeah, it's all. So what came
Speaker 1: up for me as you were speaking was I feel
Speaker 1: like so often people, my parents, people often ask like, well,
Speaker 1: what you know, what's what's your long term goal? Where
Speaker 1: do you want to be in five years? Where do
Speaker 1: you want to be in ten years? And that's putting
Speaker 1: all this weight on us to have answers to some
Speaker 1: of these bigger questions. And so I've started to look
Speaker 1: back five ten years ago, and I would never have
Speaker 1: predicted where I am now, you know, like there's so
Speaker 1: much about it that was unforeseen that like, I don't
Speaker 1: even know what my plan was five years ago, but
Speaker 1: it probably wasn't what I'm doing now. And I feel
Speaker 1: pretty good with what I'm doing now. So I've started
Speaker 1: to push back against it and be like, I don't
Speaker 1: have a five year plan. I have something. I know
Speaker 1: what my values are, I know what I enjoy doing.
Speaker 1: I have a rough idea of where I want would
Speaker 1: be in a year, but I don't care about the
Speaker 1: five year plan. The world is going to change so much.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to answer that question. I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear more about that, because I know, you know, when
Speaker 1: people hear ritual it sounds like, oh God, like I
Speaker 1: don't have any more time, I can't add another thing
Speaker 1: to my schedule, like it sounds like, especially with an
Speaker 1: anxious brain reading a book, going, I can't do that.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, what do you mean, now, I've
Speaker 1: got to meditate for an hour every morning? And it's
Speaker 1: like we probably are already doing rituals that we don't
Speaker 1: even think of as as rituals, Like, are there examples
Speaker 1: of of what a ritual is that helps reduce our
Speaker 1: stress levels? Yeah? So yeah, so research shows that rituals
Speaker 1: are really helpful also even if you don't believe in them.
Speaker 1: So they forced people who are like I am very
Speaker 1: skeptical of this to do the same thing every day
Speaker 1: at the same time, and it still made them feel
Speaker 1: better and they started to look forward to it. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly what you said. It's not adding more expectations to yourself.
Speaker 1: It's not now you have to start running five miles
Speaker 1: every morning. It can be I'm just gonna have a
Speaker 1: cup of coffee when I wake up, and I'm wake
Speaker 1: up at very different times, but just like making myself
Speaker 1: this cup of coffee as the ritual. Um. It can
Speaker 1: be something around taking your makeup off, getting into bed,
Speaker 1: reading a book like actually very soothing short things. Um,
Speaker 1: even just getting up from your desk and having lunch somewhere. Personally,
Speaker 1: I've had the same breakfast for probably seven years, and
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit of a maniac around it. So
Speaker 1: I like, probably too rigid about it, but for me,
Speaker 1: it's just helpful. It's very easy to put together. It
Speaker 1: doesn't require a lot of cooking. I wake up at
Speaker 1: different times on the weekend and during the week and
Speaker 1: when I travel. It's just it's this grounding thing of
Speaker 1: even when everything else is up in the air, this
Speaker 1: is this small routine that always I look forward to
Speaker 1: that kind of helps me recenter. Um. So I would
Speaker 1: just encourage people exactly what you said, look at what
Speaker 1: you're already doing and then don't. It's not if you
Speaker 1: have a day where you don't do it, it's not
Speaker 1: the end of the world. It doesn't need to be
Speaker 1: this big, massive life change, it really should be something
Speaker 1: that feels good to you, and most likely that's going
Speaker 1: to be something you're already doing. And yeah, it's funny
Speaker 1: you mentioned that it doesn't have to be at a
Speaker 1: specific time, because when I was reading your book, I thought, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's already rituals I do every day. And then I
Speaker 1: my next thought was, but I'm not doing it right
Speaker 1: because it's at all different times. So you know, some mornings,
Speaker 1: I might wake up at six. Some mornings, I might
Speaker 1: wake up at nine. Some nights I go to bed
Speaker 1: at tens, and nights I go to bed at doing
Speaker 1: the morning. And just hearing you say right now, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what time it is. I do the same
Speaker 1: thing every day when I wake up, and I do
Speaker 1: the same thing every night before I go to bed.
Speaker 1: And that's great. I mean, I think that's more consistency
Speaker 1: than probably most people. You know. Um, And but I
Speaker 1: was a little bit beating myself up because I'm I know,
Speaker 1: I just want to be one of those people that
Speaker 1: goes to bed at this time and wakes up at
Speaker 1: this time. But it's not always possible. Depending on what
Speaker 1: you're doing on certain days, or you know anything, how
Speaker 1: you fee you all. And but there's this um I
Speaker 1: can get kind of I think it's perfectionist about a ritual.
Speaker 1: I remember, you know Steve Jobs, where was the same
Speaker 1: He's got seven black turtlenecks, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: live that way. They just have one outfit they wear,
Speaker 1: and I'm always like, that's the ultimate way to live.
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, maybe it is if those people
Speaker 1: want to, but I clearly don't want to because I'm
Speaker 1: not doing that. But there's always this like I'm doing
Speaker 1: it wrong. So it's good to hear that there's no
Speaker 1: rules except the rule of do the same thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're ritual might be pick a fun outfit every day,
Speaker 1: you know, very different. But still I had this where
Speaker 1: I recently got on TikTok and I'm now just constantly
Speaker 1: on TikTok and there's so many like hot girl rituals
Speaker 1: of making avocado toast in the morning, and I don't
Speaker 1: like avocado toast. I'm just gonna put it out there.
Speaker 1: So that's an example of like there's all this it's
Speaker 1: kind of social pressure from social media, like this is
Speaker 1: the ritual of a woman who has it all and
Speaker 1: like looks great and have a cool life, but the
Speaker 1: fundamental fact is like I don't enjoy that, and so
Speaker 1: it would actually be really bad for me to make
Speaker 1: that my ritual. So again it's just casting all out
Speaker 1: aside and looking into yourself and say, like, what actually
Speaker 1: is comforting to me. There's a magazine I think it's
Speaker 1: I think it's Harper's Bizarre or just Bizarre. Um. It
Speaker 1: used to be my favorite part of every issue. They
Speaker 1: ask a very successful person what their daily schedule is,
Speaker 1: and it's always like, I'm an Italian shoe designer, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's this fabulous lifeel like I get up at
Speaker 1: six thirty and I make a cappuccino and then I
Speaker 1: stretch with my personal trainer, and then I take a walk,
Speaker 1: and then I check my email at nine, and then
Speaker 1: then it's like then I make a big lunch and
Speaker 1: it's two hours long and there's wine, and it just
Speaker 1: sounds like a great day. But it's very regimented at
Speaker 1: the same time, and they always get like no sleep,
Speaker 1: Like then I could have been at midnight and I
Speaker 1: can't think six, you know, And I'm Whenever I read those,
Speaker 1: I get so convinced that this person really lives this
Speaker 1: way and that I'm failing at not And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I know, if I showed up at your villa, you're not.
Speaker 1: There's no way you go make a cappuccino and don't
Speaker 1: check your email. I just don't believe you. Maybe you
Speaker 1: did that once. Maybe you're talking about your goal, but like,
Speaker 1: come on, like, nobody's perfect, and if they are, that's great.
Speaker 1: Like I celebrate that perfect person that I read about,
Speaker 1: But um, I'm going to achieve that for sure. Your
Speaker 1: assistant told you it's lunchtime. Your chef has made you lunch.
Speaker 1: You know, It's like, yeah, I don't have an assistant.
Speaker 1: I don't have a chef. My life looks different. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get a hot pocket. We'll continue the interview on
Speaker 1: the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors
Speaker 1: getting back to you at the brilliant separating them withins
Speaker 1: from the beyonds As you talked about, the next part
Speaker 1: of that, you say is when we talk about the within,
Speaker 1: so things that are within our control. The caveat to
Speaker 1: that is make a plan from which you'll deviate. And
Speaker 1: you say that a NASA scientist or doctor told you
Speaker 1: that the teams. They are refer to agendas as quote
Speaker 1: plans from which we deviate. So even if NASA can reroute,
Speaker 1: I think we can in our daily lives. So I
Speaker 1: love that. It's like, one of my favorite expressions is
Speaker 1: get out of result. Is there an example of a
Speaker 1: way to know what is within your control and then
Speaker 1: be ready for the possible deviation. Yeah, So I think
Speaker 1: even just kind of already setting out with this idea
Speaker 1: of a plan from which I'll deviate opens you up
Speaker 1: to learning along the way to being flexible. So many
Speaker 1: example of let's say you're looking for a new job,
Speaker 1: you might map out here are kind of two to
Speaker 1: three specific things I can do, and then a reasonable
Speaker 1: time frame is the next two weeks. And so the
Speaker 1: plan from which I'll deviate is I'll send out ten resumes.
Speaker 1: I'll reach out to five people in my network, and
Speaker 1: I will send out an email or make a post
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn or whatever it might be wherever you're looking
Speaker 1: for a job. Um, and then from there it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: if I get interviews, here's how I'll prepare. But it's
Speaker 1: still being open to while it could be that one
Speaker 1: of my friends has this crazy opening at their company.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Um. And so it's like I'm going to
Speaker 1: prepare for the traditional interview, but I'm also going to
Speaker 1: be ready to deviate from that if there's something unexpected
Speaker 1: that comes up, or it could be that something in
Speaker 1: my life changes that makes me want to stay where
Speaker 1: I am right now. UM. So it just it helps
Speaker 1: you unhook from the sense of I need to control
Speaker 1: every step of the path and if something else comes up,
Speaker 1: it's very disruptive as opposed to potentially really cool opportunity
Speaker 1: that you just haven't thought about. That's why I found
Speaker 1: it really helpful too. I love what you're saying about,
Speaker 1: like get out of results. Um. And I would add
Speaker 1: to that too, just it's it's more useful to be
Speaker 1: clear on what you enjoy and what you value and
Speaker 1: what you're sort of big picture goals are Like maybe
Speaker 1: your big picture goal is money, or it's free time,
Speaker 1: or it's just freedom to do whatever you want, because
Speaker 1: that's a much more flexible thing to work with. Then
Speaker 1: I need to be a lawyer. Um, there's so many
Speaker 1: different kinds of lawyers, Like do you actually want to
Speaker 1: be a lawyer? That could change, but most likely if
Speaker 1: you have this fundamental like I just I really like
Speaker 1: to control my time. Then that's a better way to
Speaker 1: take this new opportunity and say, like, will this allow
Speaker 1: me to continue living on the schedule that I really
Speaker 1: enjoy or is it suddenly gonna make me wake up
Speaker 1: at six am every morning? It's just a better decision
Speaker 1: making framework. It's really I feel, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, all work with feelings, emotions, anxieties is like,
Speaker 1: the more you know yourself and can design a life
Speaker 1: that makes you as comfortable as possible, there's no right
Speaker 1: or wrong. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, um and and yeah, and
Speaker 1: that takes a lot of courage. It's not easy. Um.
Speaker 1: So I'm a proud introvert. And so what I've found
Speaker 1: actually really is valuable to me is having one weekend
Speaker 1: day where I have no plans, where it's like I'm
Speaker 1: just going to read a book. I'm going to not
Speaker 1: see anyone, and I've made that a rule. I've also
Speaker 1: found that people take rules less personally than just a no.
Speaker 1: So now my friends all know, like this is Lez's
Speaker 1: weird Saturday rule. And it was that very uncomfortable to
Speaker 1: say that at first, to be like I would love
Speaker 1: to have dinner with you. But I have this rule
Speaker 1: where on Saturdays I just need downtime to see nobody
Speaker 1: and do nothing. Um, but it's become much more easy,
Speaker 1: and then it actually allows me to show up the
Speaker 1: next time I see them and be a way better
Speaker 1: friend because I'm not like this was supposed to be
Speaker 1: my Saturday where I was lying in bed, you know,
Speaker 1: like why am I here? I'm not like dragging myself
Speaker 1: to these events anymore. It's like, oh, this is fun,
Speaker 1: and I know that I have a day to myself
Speaker 1: coming up to I love that, and it brings us
Speaker 1: into burnout, which I wanted to talk about. I have
Speaker 1: the same thing where right now I'm in a burnout.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm on my way out of it. There's a
Speaker 1: there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But
Speaker 1: I just happened to have a billion jobs at once,
Speaker 1: and none of them were negotiable, and it it was
Speaker 1: like one job was supposed to start January and it
Speaker 1: didn't start to October, which is when another one was starting,
Speaker 1: and like, I just had to do both, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to do both. I suppose I could have just
Speaker 1: blown one up and been like no, but I knew
Speaker 1: I could get it all done, but it was a
Speaker 1: seventy hour work week I couldn't. So I would do
Speaker 1: this kind of people pleasing thing. If a friend asked
Speaker 1: me to hang out, I'd be like, well, I don't
Speaker 1: have a plan for Saturday, but it would be my
Speaker 1: one day free because I would work about six days
Speaker 1: a week. And at one point I just had to
Speaker 1: say to a few friends of mine, I felt like
Speaker 1: unless I had like a thing I had to do
Speaker 1: that I could tell them about that. I couldn't say
Speaker 1: I need me time because I think I didn't want
Speaker 1: to hear it. In other words from them, you work
Speaker 1: too much and then you're alone on this one day.
Speaker 1: It's like, I know, but when I'm overworked, that's what
Speaker 1: I need. Like going out with people seems like work.
Speaker 1: So I'm so sorry. You might not see me for
Speaker 1: a couple of months, you know, or you might if
Speaker 1: we I'm into spontaneity weirdly, but that one day I
Speaker 1: really need and it was it was hard to to do. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: everybody was fine. It does bring up a lot of
Speaker 1: unsolicited advice I wasn't asking for, but um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that's really great because I cannot function if
Speaker 1: I'm just go, go, go, go go. I do need
Speaker 1: a lot of down time that isn't oh I'm at home.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll just putter around and do some work like
Speaker 1: update my website or whatever. It's like, no, no, no no,
Speaker 1: I need to read a book. If I don't do that,
Speaker 1: I will hit a like mini burnout, and I will
Speaker 1: cancel everything and I will hide, which feels stressful because
Speaker 1: people are wondering where I am and I'm not communicating,
Speaker 1: and I'll binge like you know, stranger things for three days,
Speaker 1: and so I have to balance that kind of like
Speaker 1: I can lay on the couch and binge, but it
Speaker 1: feels better if people know about it. Then if I'm
Speaker 1: like hiding from the world because I'm so overwhelmed. That
Speaker 1: was just a long monologue, not a question, but no,
Speaker 1: that resonates a lot. It reminds me of this, and
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, like every I think we often we
Speaker 1: just feel all this pressure, especially if you're people pleaser
Speaker 1: to say yes, and then we forget about when you
Speaker 1: say yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else,
Speaker 1: and we often just don't see it that way, and
Speaker 1: so starting to be like Okay, if I say yes
Speaker 1: to taking my Saturday and you know, going on a
Speaker 1: bar crawl or you know, running to the beach, running
Speaker 1: to this and running whatever it is, you're saying no
Speaker 1: to feeling good on Sunday, You're saying no to checking
Speaker 1: in with your friends for the whole next week because
Speaker 1: you're going to be exhausted. And so I think actually
Speaker 1: starting to get clear on like what's the no within
Speaker 1: this yes can help you make a better decision and
Speaker 1: be like, actually, I don't want to say no to
Speaker 1: these things, so I'm going to say no to the
Speaker 1: first one. Um. And I think we often don't do that.
Speaker 1: It's just like, oh I feel those pressure, Okay, I'll
Speaker 1: say yes, and then we actually end up in a
Speaker 1: way worse spot than if we had just been up front,
Speaker 1: like you said, I'm just communicated and said like, hey,
Speaker 1: i'm you know, I'm really working hard. Here's what's going
Speaker 1: on with my projects. I'm excited about them. It's probably
Speaker 1: gonna be like this for a month or two, but like,
Speaker 1: let's definitely grab dinner when things settled down. Like that's
Speaker 1: totally fair, absolutely, And you reminded me of you know,
Speaker 1: during the pandemic like the I mean, it's still going on,
Speaker 1: but like I mean, the first few months, I was
Speaker 1: very burned out. And in the book, um, I think
Speaker 1: it was Molly that wrote the essay about flying all
Speaker 1: the time and seeing everyone in first class that you
Speaker 1: know they were there and able to afford those tickets
Speaker 1: because they flew so much, they had miles. And that
Speaker 1: was the story of my life. And I never enjoyed
Speaker 1: first class. I just sat there typing and doing another project,
Speaker 1: on the way to another project, and I was starting
Speaker 1: to burn out. And I remember saying to someone, and
Speaker 1: I swear this is way before this is like probably
Speaker 1: three weeks before, however, COVID manifested in that wet market,
Speaker 1: Like before that happened. I said to someone, I for
Speaker 1: my schedules already said I'm on this tour and I
Speaker 1: don't want to do it, and I need I don't
Speaker 1: need a vacation, I need for one year of the
Speaker 1: world to stop. I literally said that, Um I did this,
Speaker 1: I forgot to tell it. When to stop, I said,
Speaker 1: a year. But but I mean, I really I was
Speaker 1: lucky because I got some other work. I could work
Speaker 1: from home and it made no difference but um, I
Speaker 1: needed to stop this touring life. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: do anymore, and I didn't want to do fifty things
Speaker 1: at once. And I got to the point where I said,
Speaker 1: I need time off. And there's always something right, like
Speaker 1: you're doing my podcast right now, Like someone wants you
Speaker 1: to do their podcast, someone wants you to whatever whatever.
Speaker 1: Talk to their friend's son for a minute about I
Speaker 1: don't know the cologe you went to or your book
Speaker 1: you wrote. And yes, each individual thing is ten minutes
Speaker 1: or an hour, and yes, do I have an hour? Yes,
Speaker 1: But if I say but if I make it a
Speaker 1: rule that like, for the next three months while we're
Speaker 1: in lockdown, I am not doing podcasts. I'm not doing
Speaker 1: your son wants to pick my brain about comedy, nothing
Speaker 1: everyone gets known. Then it's easier because what tends to
Speaker 1: happen is I make an exception when I can do this,
Speaker 1: and then I keep doing it. And then I look
Speaker 1: at my calendar and every day has like three quote
Speaker 1: interruptions in it that I don't need to do. It's
Speaker 1: not making me any money, it's not furthering me in
Speaker 1: any way. They're just favors, which is fine. Every once
Speaker 1: in a while to do them, but I was just
Speaker 1: so burned out that even an hour of giving my
Speaker 1: time I couldn't do it. I was And that was
Speaker 1: like tough, because, like you say in your book, burnout
Speaker 1: is not obvious. So other people like when you mean
Speaker 1: you're burnt out, and it seems like you're being rude,
Speaker 1: but it's I never want to get to that place
Speaker 1: again where I have to completely shut down and I'm
Speaker 1: glad that there's a global pandemic for a year. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's not a normal way to live, where it's like
Speaker 1: balls to the wall and then oh good, we're locked
Speaker 1: in our owns, Like that's not that's not good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean I've heard this from so many people who, yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously the pandemic was hugely challenging for infinite number of reasons.
Speaker 1: But people kind of saying like there was the silver lining,
Speaker 1: which was just getting to breathe for a second, and
Speaker 1: suddenly you didn't have to say yes to everything, um,
Speaker 1: because we couldn't be in a room with other people. Um.
Speaker 1: And So I think one thing you're bringing up that
Speaker 1: is that I try to keep in mind too, is
Speaker 1: we is just remembering that, like your health is the
Speaker 1: foundation for everything else you want to do. And so
Speaker 1: again we often we just say yes. We say yes.
Speaker 1: We say yes because we feel like we should or
Speaker 1: we don't want to be rude. But it's actually like,
Speaker 1: if you want to make an impact on the world,
Speaker 1: if you actually want to help other people, you really
Speaker 1: do have to take care of yourself first. So on
Speaker 1: an extreme level, it's easy to see this if you're
Speaker 1: like so sick, you're in the hospital, you can't take
Speaker 1: on any work. But then we were just not able
Speaker 1: to see the less extreme but equally important version, which
Speaker 1: is like, well, yeah, but if you're run down, if
Speaker 1: you're exhausted, if you're not sleeping, you're also not really
Speaker 1: showing up in the way you want to um, and
Speaker 1: so it's it's real. Yeah, it's I used to do
Speaker 1: this thing where I would I would try to set
Speaker 1: boundaries by punting stuff into the future, so I'd be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I can't do it this month, but I can it
Speaker 1: next month, and that funds really good. But then I
Speaker 1: would get to the next month and be like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, what is going on this month? Because it
Speaker 1: was just like a complete mess. My calendar was a
Speaker 1: disaster zone. It's like throwing something in your closet to
Speaker 1: put away later, and when doing you open it and
Speaker 1: just like avalanches on you. Yeah, exactly. And so now
Speaker 1: I've started to be like, don't commit to this in
Speaker 1: two months. Just be like I just can't take this
Speaker 1: on right now or like or like you said, you know,
Speaker 1: like that, I just have a lot going on, and
Speaker 1: so I'm sort of saying no, of blanket no to
Speaker 1: these kinds of things. Um, but yeah, I just also
Speaker 1: want to encourage people. Don't do the like I'll do
Speaker 1: it next month, I'll do it in two months, because
Speaker 1: that month is you're going to run yourself into the ground.
Speaker 1: Anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little
Speaker 1: message from one of our sponsors. One thing I've also seen,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how many people this applies to,
Speaker 1: but I reached out to someone once just asking them like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I would love advice on this thing, and they
Speaker 1: had actually put together a short pdf, just being like,
Speaker 1: here are some resources, because I get asked this question
Speaker 1: kind of frequently, and so they said, I don't have
Speaker 1: time to meet with everyone, but here's a pdf that
Speaker 1: other people have told me as helpful, and so it
Speaker 1: was this really nice way of you obviously genious, it's
Speaker 1: so smart. Um. And so I think if there is
Speaker 1: something that you get asked frequently, that's a nice way
Speaker 1: of still offering help. But you're not, you know, dedicating
Speaker 1: an hour of your time every three days to this conversation.
Speaker 1: It's like that thing on your text when UM isn't
Speaker 1: I think there's a thing you can set on your
Speaker 1: text that's just like be right there, you know, or
Speaker 1: something so like yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: the bigger version of that. Well, it's interesting that because
Speaker 1: and I know you have to go, I'll let you go,
Speaker 1: like I minutes even give me fun worth. But I
Speaker 1: feel like, um, culturally it's really hard because everyone else,
Speaker 1: even if it's not like a high powered CEO, even
Speaker 1: it's just someone with like a regular old job where
Speaker 1: you know, there's a million other jobs like it, but
Speaker 1: they're just busy. They've got their thing, they've got their kids,
Speaker 1: they've got their job that I don't know whatever. I
Speaker 1: feel like everyone is in a burnout, not just like
Speaker 1: the highest powered CEO or real estate agent or whatever.
Speaker 1: And so I I found like, unless I'm in the hospital,
Speaker 1: there is not a lot of sometimes, um, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's not compassion or but there's there's been a lot
Speaker 1: of um oh, you take such good care of yourself,
Speaker 1: Like I'm doing something extra by saying, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I got in last night late from you know, my tour.
Speaker 1: My plane landed at one, I went to bed at three,
Speaker 1: So I think getting brunch at noon, I think it's
Speaker 1: just gonna be. I think I need to sleep and
Speaker 1: just you know, not have mimosas. It's like, wow, you're
Speaker 1: a real health not and it's like, no, that should
Speaker 1: not be considered like a health night, you know. And
Speaker 1: I've the most regiment that I've ever been. And that's
Speaker 1: why in one way I miss touring is I had
Speaker 1: my routines, you know, get there, do a little work
Speaker 1: out at the hotel, have a five o'clock dinner, shower,
Speaker 1: do the shows, go to bed, repeat. I didn't do
Speaker 1: any extra it and go out after because I'd have
Speaker 1: to take care of my voice. And also, like even
Speaker 1: free pandemic, you know, you can get a cold from someone,
Speaker 1: um if you go out and or close talking in
Speaker 1: a bar and it's midnight, and I just I mean
Speaker 1: also just never was tempted to go out that lad.
Speaker 1: I was always tired, but people would say, wow, you're
Speaker 1: a hypochondriac. I'm like, it's it's not a hypochondria to
Speaker 1: say I use my voice for a living. If there's
Speaker 1: no show, there's no money, I cannot lose my voice.
Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna go screaming in a bar tonight.
Speaker 1: But there there is this like, if you take the
Speaker 1: littlest care of yourself I have had, it's not pushedback,
Speaker 1: but comments, and it sometimes admire ring, you know, but
Speaker 1: like wow, what great. I'm like, this is not where
Speaker 1: we should be as a society. That should not be
Speaker 1: considered like extreme self care, you know. So I think
Speaker 1: it's really hard because we're all in the cycle of
Speaker 1: everyone else is doing the burnout thing and we look
Speaker 1: like kind of like princess e divas, and that's for
Speaker 1: all genders. If we set boundaries, it's hard, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: It's also it's not just the comments. It's what we're
Speaker 1: rewarded for in society. So you're going to be rewarded
Speaker 1: for doing a ton of shows and having an interview
Speaker 1: and being featured in this and that. No one's going
Speaker 1: to reward you for a setting Saturday aside two binge
Speaker 1: watch Netflix, right, Like right, there's no one's clapping for you,
Speaker 1: no one's thumbs up in that accomplishment on Twitter or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. Um So I think it does come
Speaker 1: back to, yeah, just having essentially the courage to say,
Speaker 1: this is my reward to myself. This is like what
Speaker 1: I need to do, and it's in. You also brought
Speaker 1: up the being on tour, you had this set routine,
Speaker 1: and I've heard from so many people over and over
Speaker 1: again like this sounds bad, but the thought of getting
Speaker 1: a little sick, or the thought of having my internet
Speaker 1: go down, or that it's like these mini pandemics. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like it would be such a relief because I
Speaker 1: could finally take a breather. Um And so that, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a horrible place to be in. Like you should
Speaker 1: never see your vacation as a recovery. You should never
Speaker 1: see getting sick as like a much needed break. You know,
Speaker 1: that's not a brand, that's your body shutting down. Um
Speaker 1: And so I think the more you can internalize that
Speaker 1: and really remind yourself this is just like whatever anyone says,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if I get likes for this. This
Speaker 1: is actually what I need to do to show up
Speaker 1: for the things that are important to me, that I
Speaker 1: need to pay the bills, that kind of thing. And Yeah,
Speaker 1: as you see in the book, burnout isn't obvious, So
Speaker 1: no one's going to come up to you go, oh
Speaker 1: my god, you need a break. Like It's right. It's
Speaker 1: the final moment of burnout where you're like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: shutting the world down. I'm collapsing him in the hospital. Sure,
Speaker 1: that's obvious, but all the moments, the many things that
Speaker 1: are creating the burnout that's going to come, that's never obvious, right,
Speaker 1: like to ourselves, even I guess as well. Yeah. One
Speaker 1: thing that it's been funny because I've done a lot
Speaker 1: of like talks and workshops around the book with Molly,
Speaker 1: and one thing that really seems to resonate with people
Speaker 1: is when we say, watch out for the early signs
Speaker 1: of burnout. So one of them is this thing called
Speaker 1: revenge bedtime procrastination. Yes, yes, And it's like, yeah, you
Speaker 1: it's this thing where it's not obvious, but the moment
Speaker 1: someone articulates that, you're like, oh my god, that's what
Speaker 1: I've been doing. So it's you have a really busy day,
Speaker 1: you don't have time for yourself, you get into bed
Speaker 1: at all, then whatever, Um, and you should go to
Speaker 1: sleep because you're exhausted and your body is asleep, and
Speaker 1: maybe you have an early wake up time, and instead
Speaker 1: you get on TikTok, you start checking your email, you're
Speaker 1: reading articles, you're on Twitter, whatever it might be. And
Speaker 1: so it's this, it's basically your self sabotaging and you're
Speaker 1: getting into a cycle where now you're even more tired
Speaker 1: the next day. And then it builds and builds and builds.
Speaker 1: And what that is a signal of is that you
Speaker 1: just have not had time for yourself during the day.
Speaker 1: So this is you trying to claw back some sense
Speaker 1: of control, some sense of me time. Um. And it
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, when when we talk about this, we
Speaker 1: like that I do that. So and so there are
Speaker 1: these smaller signals of burnout that we're just not aware of.
Speaker 1: No one has told us this is a sign that
Speaker 1: you need to build more breaks into your day. Um.
Speaker 1: It's so yeah, I think there's just we're a society
Speaker 1: that rewards business and under educates people about these early
Speaker 1: signs of like you are not living a sustainable life.
Speaker 1: And lastly, I love what you said. Your friend Navid
Speaker 1: created a Google document titled who am I, and he
Speaker 1: wrote what his values are and you can expand on it,
Speaker 1: but it basically he looked at it was like, I'm
Speaker 1: not doing any of this. Yeah, yeah, so he had
Speaker 1: gotten He also now it's interesting, he's a coach who
Speaker 1: helps other people who have gone through burnout. So and
Speaker 1: this it's sort of based on this experience he had.
Speaker 1: We worked really hard for this promotion and got promoted
Speaker 1: and felt terrible and it just wasn't this huge milestone
Speaker 1: accomplishment he had expected it to be. So he made
Speaker 1: the schoogle doc and then set aside the job career
Speaker 1: expectations and wrote out things he knew that made him
Speaker 1: feel good, that brought him lightness. Um and I can't
Speaker 1: remember exactly it was on those, but things like I
Speaker 1: invest in others, I take care of my health by exercise,
Speaker 1: I have hobbies I enjoy. And then he went through
Speaker 1: the list and highlighted the ones that he was actually practicing,
Speaker 1: and he was there was almost nothing on the list
Speaker 1: that was he was actually doing. And so that's when
Speaker 1: he realized that this promotion. Again, it was it was
Speaker 1: just not aligned with his values at all. And so
Speaker 1: then he started to think, like, what is a career
Speaker 1: that would be better aligned with these things? And now
Speaker 1: he makes it a regular practice to go into this
Speaker 1: document and just do a quick check in of you
Speaker 1: know it to be like more than fifty of the
Speaker 1: things are true in this moment, like I am taking
Speaker 1: care of myself, I am prioritizing my friends, um. And
Speaker 1: he says that that is for him. The best way
Speaker 1: to check in on has he built a sustainable life
Speaker 1: for himself or is he kind of veering off of
Speaker 1: his values and getting too influenced by outside pressures that
Speaker 1: aren't actually helping him achieve what he wants to achieve.
Speaker 1: Is there any big, big ticket item of inspiration that
Speaker 1: you don't want to leave anybody? I would just say,
Speaker 1: you know, giving yourself grace along the way. Some of
Speaker 1: these things might not work for you, some might work great.
Speaker 1: There's not a one size fits all. And again the
Speaker 1: goal shouldn't be I'm going to never feel anxiety and
Speaker 1: never be exhausted. That's just you sign up for life.
Speaker 1: You're gonna be tired, You're gonna be anxious, right, it's
Speaker 1: more about just coping with it and having better responses.
Speaker 1: So you've been moved through it more quickly. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoyed my conversation with Liz fossil Ling, and these
Speaker 1: are the takeaways for this episode. Again, you can find
Speaker 1: the takeaways on my website Jen Kirkman dot com and
Speaker 1: then click anxiety Bites. As always, the link is in
Speaker 1: the show notes, which are located on whatever podcast app
Speaker 1: you're listening to this one. So the big takeaways from
Speaker 1: my talk with Liz vos Lean about big feelings. Studies
Speaker 1: show that humans hate uncertainty. Most people would rather know
Speaker 1: for sure that something bad is going to happen tomorrow
Speaker 1: than only have a fifty chance of something bad happening tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Humans have a deep aversion to uncertainty because our brains
Speaker 1: play tricks on us to make us feel like we
Speaker 1: can predict the future, which makes us feel a sense
Speaker 1: of control. Anxiety does not accurately affect risk or reflect risk.
Speaker 1: There's a mismatch between how stressed we feel about something
Speaker 1: and the likelihood that it will happen. People can go
Speaker 1: into quote anxious fixing, vacuuming, making to do lists, et cetera,
Speaker 1: instead of sitting down and taking five minutes to check
Speaker 1: in and feel how their feeling, and then people end
Speaker 1: up exhausted after all this anxious fixing and are still
Speaker 1: no closer to getting rid of the anxiety that they
Speaker 1: were originally feeling. How do you sit and notice your feelings?
Speaker 1: You can sit down anywhere and ask yourself if you
Speaker 1: have a specific fear going on, are the specific scenarios
Speaker 1: that you're afraid of realistic? Name them and look realistically
Speaker 1: at what you can do about it. Draw a boundary
Speaker 1: between what you can control and what you can't. You
Speaker 1: have to separate the withins from the beyond, things within
Speaker 1: your control and things beyond your control. Adopting a mantra
Speaker 1: of I am a person who is learning how to
Speaker 1: blank instead of trying to be perfect helps You don't
Speaker 1: need to know all of the answers to anything that
Speaker 1: you're anxious about right now. It's okay to not know
Speaker 1: what your five year plants. Doing Any kind of ritual,
Speaker 1: even if it's having the same breakfast every day or
Speaker 1: doing the same things before bed every night, can help
Speaker 1: us with anxiety. Any kind of ritual counts, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be at the same time every day.
Speaker 1: Even scientists at NASA say that they make plans, but
Speaker 1: they think of agendas as plans from which we deviate.
Speaker 1: Learning how to make a plan, but be flexible for
Speaker 1: that plan if it doesn't go exactly how you wanted.
Speaker 1: Is how to handle things without anxiety. Some people have
Speaker 1: more tolerance of uncertainty, and that's okay. We are allowed
Speaker 1: to design the life we want, and if we are
Speaker 1: drawn to riskier or safer jobs, that's up to each
Speaker 1: individual to assess. Work. Burnout is not something that you
Speaker 1: can recover from by taking a one week vacation. People
Speaker 1: usually ignore the signs of burnout because they don't know
Speaker 1: what they are. One example of them is revenge bedtime procrastination.
Speaker 1: Thanks again for listening to Anxiety Bites. Stay tuned for
Speaker 1: another new episode next week, and just remember Anxiety Bites,
Speaker 1: but You're in control. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.