WEBVTT - Big Feelings & Burnout 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:17.439 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.720 am your host, Jen Kirkman. Today my guest is Liz Fosslin. 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:28.040 She is the co author of the national bestseller Big Feelings, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.840 and we will talk about a few concepts from that 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:38.760 book in today's interview. I appreciate the title Big Feelings 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:44.600 because this book is about anxiety, the anxiety of uncertainty, 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:51.080 going into anxious fixing instead of sitting figuring out our 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.560 feelings in any given moment. It's the book is a 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.000 lot about burnout work burnout, which is obviously a certain 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:02.000 kind of anxiety as well. But I appreciate that the 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:07.160 overall tone is thinking about it in terms of feelings, right, 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:12.399 because what's underneath a lot of anxiety is feelings. You know, 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:16.240 we are a perfect mix. If you've learned anything from 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:20.479 last week's episode, Joseph Lead neuroscientists that yes, we are 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:26.200 a batch of chemicals and memories and reactions, but we 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.560 have emotions and we have human feelings, and everybody may 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:37.080 experience the same symptoms of anxiety, sweaty palms, rapid heartbeat, 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:43.800 panic attacks, whatnot. There's this universal symptoms of anxiety and panic. 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.520 But we are each unique creatures with our specific feelings 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:51.280 in any given moment, and a lot of times are 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:56.960 feelings inform how severe our anxiety is around a certain situation, 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:02.080 and a lot of times it's important to get under 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.640 the hood and figure out what we're really feeling. You know, 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:11.040 it's incredible that we have such simple and easy solutions 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.360 to lower our heart rate and to pass through panic. 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:21.760 As doctor clear Weeks once said, but let's not discount 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.400 that we are humans with feelings, and if we can 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.040 look at our feelings, we can decrease our anxiety, and 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.040 we can also just feel better. I mean, forget the 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.240 pressure of have I decreased my anxiety? We can just 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.720 understand ourselves better, which helps us make decisions, which helps 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.680 us become who we are looking to become. And although 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.839 the book Big Feelings covers many topics and does so 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:50.280 really expertly, I highly recommend this book. I wanted to 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:57.600 really zero in on one or two chapters, and the 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.760 ones that we talked about are uncertain t and how 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.920 do we actually practice sitting with our uncertainty? You know 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.560 what does that mean? Because every episode. I mean, in 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.120 the first episode of this podcast, Dr jud Brewer said 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.400 the only thing that's certain in life is that there 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.639 is uncertainty. And that's true, and that's great and that's smart. 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:18.840 But I had other things to talk to him about, 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.160 so we didn't drill down into it, and now is 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.880 the time to answer, Okay, I get it. I'm willing 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.480 to sit with uncertainty. I accept that life is uncertain. 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:30.720 I know I can't control a lot of life. But 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.799 what do you mean sit with the uncertainty? Am I 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.520 supposed to literally sit on my bed or something? And yeah, 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.000 I mean, that is one thing you can do, but 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:43.160 there's more to it. It's just about stopping for a 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.800 minute and asking yourself some questions so you can figure 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.960 out what's going on underneath in that moment. And it 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.200 doesn't have to be this deep dive into your childhood 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:54.760 and you don't have to be a therapist to do it, 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:56.960 and you don't need a therapist to do that with 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:01.960 you in the moment. It's it's a very intimate solo 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:07.720 exercise that you can do. And if you don't like uncertainty, 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.120 even though you accept it and you are very much 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:14.080 aware that there's no getting up, there's no getting through 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.920 life without it being full of uncertainty. There's some really 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.880 interesting ways to look at it, because the science and 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.480 the data back up that people hate uncertainty so much 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.760 that they would rather know for sure that something bad 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.320 is going to happen tomorrow. If presented with the option, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.360 something bad can happen tomorrow and you can know about it. 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.520 Or I could tell you that you have a fifty 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.760 percent chance of something bad happening tomorrow, which means you 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.760 also have a fifty percent chance of nothing bad happening tomorrow, 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:50.560 So you can have that knowing that something bad or 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.640 nothing bad or yes, definitely something bad. I'll tell you 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.760 what it is and when. Most people would choose yeah, 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:59.480 just yeah, give me this something bad and tell me 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:01.800 when and what instead of taking the risk and then 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:07.800 maybe nothing that will happen. And within the uncertainty, there's 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.960 also not just the uncertainty of if I walk outside, 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.680 will a piano fall on my head? But when we 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.240 do make a plan, I mean we obviously have to 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.400 make a plan at times. You know, we have to 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.200 schedule things. If you have a job, you have to 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.400 create whatever it is you create at your job, you 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:31.279 have to raise a child. Whatever you're doing, there has 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.760 to be intention and planning behind it, but then there 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:38.279 has to be accounting for mistakes and uncertainty and just 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:43.040 things going wrong. And in the book, Liz talks about 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.159 how even scientists that NASA say that they make plans, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.760 but they think of agendas as plans from which we deviate. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.480 So when you make a plan, learning to be flexible, 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:58.280 like included in that plan is the flexibility of if 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:03.159 it deviates from your plan, And that is how to 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:07.080 set yourself up for having less anxiety when something deviates 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.400 because you took the uncertainty out of it. You were 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.159 certain that there was uncertainty in your plan. And then 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.640 we talk about work burnout, something very near and dear 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:21.320 to my heart, and Liz explains that you cannot cure 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.560 work burnout with a you know, a weekend away and 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:26.599 then go right back into what's burning you out. It 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:31.120 really takes kind of sitting and assessing what you want 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.080 out of life and are you the person that you 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.520 aspire to be in your head or are you living 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.360 your values? If you're saying, you know, money is not 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.240 important to me, I don't want to chase something because 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.320 I don't really care about my legacy or I don't 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.880 care about being the most productive worker and winning the 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:54.280 award or for best attendance or whatever. You know, then 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.440 are you living according to that? Are you saying I'm 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.960 someone who wants to spend more time with family and 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.599 friends and get it out in nature more, or sleep more, 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:07.880 read more, or just have more free time? Are you 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.120 actually doing that? And and how much of that is 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:17.080 again within your control? So, and with burnout, it's something 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.880 that most people don't know they are experiencing until they 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.160 hit that wall to where you know, you might end 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.600 up sick in the hospital. You might end up just 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:34.120 saying I can't do this anymore, you know, leaving a job. 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.680 Who knows how burnout could affect you, but most people 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.840 don't address it until it's like at the breaking point. 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.400 And there are signs of burnout along the way that 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.200 seem kind of normal, like they don't seem like burnout signs. 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.600 One of them is called revenge bedtime procrastination, which is 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.880 when you go to bed and you want to sleep 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.200 and you love sleeping and you can sleep, you don't 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:03.720 have insomnia, but you have felt so just like you 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.600 have no control over your schedule. Everyone wants something from 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.280 you. You You didn't. You didn't get a minute to yourself 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.560 except maybe when you went to Pete. You didn't get 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.360 a minute to yourself that day, And damn it, you're 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.840 gonna get that time. Now. You're gonna go to bed 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.120 and you're gonna scroll your phone and look at the 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.600 internet or play a game or whatever, even though you 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.040 desperately need sleep, and this will cut into your sleep, 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.720 which will set you up for being exhausted the next day. 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.280 Hence you're on the road to burn out. But it 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.920 is the only way you can think to get time 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.400 for yourself. Even if, again, if you were to schedule 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:41.880 and plan your life and dream big, you wouldn't say 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.520 the best way I can spend time with myself is 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:46.559 playing a game on my phone two in the morning, 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.200 you know. So it's things like that that have become 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.800 so normalized that are actually signs of burnout. So we 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.320 talked about that as well. So let's just get into 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.640 it so you can actually here the genius of my guest, 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:00.360 Liz fosse Len, who ill tell you a little bit 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.520 about right now. Liz is the co author and illustrator 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.320 of the national bestseller Big Feelings, which again she co 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:11.080 authored with Molly west Duffy. Liz is an expert on 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.400 how to make work better. She's the head of Content 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.520 and Communications at WHUMO. She helps teams and leaders develop 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:20.360 the skills and habits that allow them to unlock their 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:26.200 full potential. She regularly leads interactive, scientifically backed workshops about 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.960 how to build resilience, help remote workers avoid burnout, and 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.679 effectively harness emotion as a leader. And again, you can 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.440 find more information about Liz in the show notes. And 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:46.160 I hope that you enjoy this conversation. I'm going to 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.160 be um awkwardly reading to you from your book that 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.400 you wrote with Molly west Duffy, Big Feelings, How to 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.400 Be Okay when Things are not Okay. And I wanted 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.880 to start with one of the chapters in your book, 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.680 which is Uncertainty. And I you know, obviously uncertainty has 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.880 come up on this podcast before and one of my guests, 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:10.920 I think my first guest, Dr Judge Brewer, said the 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.280 only thing we can be certain of is that there 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.600 is uncertainty. But something about reading this in your book 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.560 made me realize we need to go over this again, 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.320 because as you wrote, UM, myths about uncertainty, you say 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:29.040 myth number one, certainty is attainable. And so I think, 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.920 even though people have heard a million times that the 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:33.880 only thing certain about life is that it's uncertain, I 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.040 still do think there's something in our heads that goes well. No, 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.440 I think we can I think we can get a 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.520 lot of certainty. I think we can try to get 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:47.840 some more. And so can you give you had said that, um, 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.800 Behavioral scientists have shown that we're overly optimistic about the 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.200 things we want to happen, but we tend to overlook 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.560 longer term shifts, and we overemphasize the importance of new 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:02.400 information that fits into our existing beliefs. So that's kind 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.640 of a mouthful. Can you kind of give me an 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.400 example and game that out for me? What what that is? What? 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.800 What does our brain actually do to think we have certainty? Yeah, 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.400 so there's additional research, I mean, all kinds of studies 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:19.240 that show that humans hate uncertainty, Like we would rather 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.280 know for sure that something bad is going to happen 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.280 tomorrow then have a fifty chance of that's something bad happening, 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.200 because in the former we can plan for it, and 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.400 it just it feels like we still have some semblance 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:36.199 of control. So because we have this deep aversion to uncertainty, 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.720 our brains play all kinds of tricks on us to 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.240 make us feel like we can predict the future. We're 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.320 somehow different than everybody else on the planet. And so 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.760 one is like if you, let's say you decide you 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.680 want to go on an international trip and the hotel 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:53.959 you were kind of looking at suddenly has a sale 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.480 on hotel rooms, You're going to see that It's like, 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.520 this is the sign. This is like I should go 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.199 on this. This is confirmation by us essentially, But if 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:05.480 the flight tickets go up, you're just not going to 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.480 read that heavily into that. Um. And so that's an 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:13.760 example M again just try like picking certain information to 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.800 support what we kind of already want to happen or 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.960 want to believe about the future. UM. You know. That's 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:24.520 also I see this a lot recently with economic uncertainty, 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.679 where people if they really believe, let's say the housing 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:29.880 market is going to go down and I think no 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.400 one quite knows it's going to happen, yet, they'll see 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.320 like one house on the market that's been on the 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:38.120 market longer than normal and take that as like, this 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.760 is the indicator that I'm right, And then if a 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.320 house cells really quickly, they'll be like if that's that's 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:47.040 just a blip. Um. So there's lots of examples of this, 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.480 but very common bias that we're susceptible too. And so 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.600 the danger in this because I know someone could say, well, 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:57.760 that's great, you've got a great attitude. You know, the 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.080 flights are going down, and so you your dream trip, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.520 and you don't you don't notice the negative that the 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.760 hotels are are going up or not on sale. I 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:09.480 could see someone saying that life, what's wrong with that? 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.320 You're seeing the positive? But I think the bigger picture 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.200 is probably that if something doesn't work out right, there's 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:21.319 like this extra disappointment because you were approaching it from 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.360 a place of certainty and like maybe mild vagueness in 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.440 some ways. Is that with the dangerous Is that like 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.120 then that could lead to I don't know whatever, beating 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:33.480 yourself up or anxiety or something. Yeah. Absolutely, when we 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.520 overestimate how much control we have over the future, or 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.480 have too high expectations, you're absolutely right. Then when something 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.680 doesn't work out we kind of put it on ourselves. 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.040 We beat ourselves up for it. We think it's our 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.959 faults somehow. Um. And it's also it prevents us from 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.440 making rational decisions. Right if you write, if the flights 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:56.600 go up too much, maybe you shouldn't take the trip 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.559 right now, like there's a lot of stuff that. Um. 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.120 You know, it prevents us also from just being flexible 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:08.800 as things change, right, And yeah, I we remember when 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:10.280 I had a fear of flying, I would look for 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.480 any little sign I could, depending on what I was 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.400 looking for that day. Sometimes I wanted confirmation that I 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.000 should not take this play because it was dangerous. Sometimes 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.120 I wanted reassurance that it would be okay. But I 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.480 could read into anything. And it's like if I looked 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:27.840 at a flight one day and it went up the 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.640 next day, instead of learning, oh, well, you looked on 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.760 on Monday and that's when flight prices go up. You know, 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.400 I would think, oh my god, I can't afford this, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.880 so I'm not going to go, and I just saved 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:40.720 my life, you know. I would look at it that way, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.640 and it's like none of that is happening. And at 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:47.800 the very least, even though I guess no harm is 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.160 coming to me. By doing that, I'm really training my 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.680 brain to believe every thought I have. Totally. It's funny 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.880 as you bring that up. I also sometimes get nervous 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.560 about flying, and it reminds me when Molly and I 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.720 were interviewing people as we were writing this book about uncertainty, 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.520 many people said that what helped them move forward was 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.560 asking themselves like, what's the worst thing that could happen? 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.000 And then they would say, you know, the worst thing 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.680 wasn't actually that bad, and then it it just helped 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.760 me feel more calm. That has never worked for me 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.720 because I'm a catastrophizer, So for me, the worst thing 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.000 that could happen is like catastrophically bad. It's not just 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.160 like a little thing. It's like I will come up 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.600 with a dark, dark scenario that is terrifying, and I 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.760 will not move forward. So what I've found helpful is 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.720 also to ask like, what is the likelihood of this 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:45.440 worst case scenario? And usually it's infinitesimally small. Um. So 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.560 I just for anyone out there who has gotten the 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.360 advice what's the worst that could happen? It might not 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.400 work for you. And if you do find yourself obsessing 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.520 over a horrible worst case scenario. You can pull it 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.320 back a little bit by saying, how, like, what is 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.840 the actual probability that this is going to happen? It's 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.560 probably far and away not the most likely outcome. That's 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.960 really smart advice. And yeah, because when someone would say 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.920 that to me, what's the worst that could happen? I'm thinking, 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.200 do you think I'm an amateur at this? I've already 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.480 gained out the worst that could happen. That's why I'm 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.120 nervous about booking this flight or you know, taking this 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:26.160 road trip. I mean, you can't out catastrophize a catastrophizer, 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.040 and that doesn't always help. I mean, you know, I've 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:34.920 done exercises where I do just um let myself actually 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:36.920 really feel with that all might feel like and it 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.920 does bring it around too well. I ultimately have no control. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.320 But I think that the example you gave is the 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.200 likelihood is a great example of if the other one 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.200 doesn't work for people. And I think this brings me 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.200 to your other myth that you say about uncertainty is 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.920 that anxiety accurately reflects risk. So is that sort of 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.000 what you're talking about, that there's a mismatch between house 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:05.320 stressed we feel about something and the likelihood that will happen. Yes, exactly, 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.600 so when we it's normal to feel anxiety in the 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.280 face of uncertainty. But it's really easy for us to 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.640 lean into that and and I believe that it's our 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.919 intuition rather than just like a bunch of scrambled noise um. 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.520 And that's it's hard to figure out, you know, what 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.920 is actually my gut instinct, what is just my anxiety speaking. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.040 But one research study that I found really fascinating was 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.800 there were researchers. They split people randomly into two groups, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:39.040 and then one group had a chance of getting harmless 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.000 but painful electric shock, and the other group had a 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.159 fifty percent chance. And then the researchers said to each group, like, 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.520 how much are you willing to pay not to get 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.800 this shock? And so you would think that the group 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.040 that had a lower percentage chance would pay less, because 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.800 that just sort of rational. We are not rational creatures. 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.840 So the two groups paid exactly the same, and so 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.320 again goes to show them how we per how afraid 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.200 we feel like we're actually more anxious often when things 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.560 are uncertain than when they're sure. And so even it 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.479 could be that actually, like the fact that you're so 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:17.400 nervous about what might happen tomorrow just means that there's 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.000 a small chance something bad will happen. But that's so 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.720 stressful that that's generating more anxiety in you than knowing 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.520 like tomorrow I'm going to have this like dentist appointment 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.920 that I'm really dreading. You might dread it, but you 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.159 might not be as anxious. Um So I think just 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.920 important to keep that in mind and not just let 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.960 yourself like lean into this anxiety and see it as 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.159 this means for sure that something terrible is going to happen. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.040 But I think that is tough for anxious people to 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.639 be told, you know, go with your gut feeling. It's like, 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.439 I don't know my gut. I've never had an organic 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.080 gut feeling. I've only had these a weird paranoid And 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:57.919 even people can do it in the positive sense, you know. 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.480 You see it all the time when people eat someone 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.000 they like and as having a really good feeling about 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:04.639 this person and then it ends up like this a 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.560 horrible relationship or doesn't work out. They goes to the 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:12.879 person or whatever. But it's like Feelings aren't facts, and 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.680 it's okay to have them, but I feel like it's 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:21.480 all about just keeping them in their place, not believing 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.040 them and going down that rabbit hole. Yeah, I love, 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.800 feelings aren't facts. I think it really is about sitting 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.040 with it, even though it's so uncomfortable. Like I think 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.200 often we just leap to the assumption that what we're 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.159 feeling is a fact, because it's actually more uncomfortable to 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.719 sit with it and try to understand it and just 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:42.879 breathe through it than to be like, Okay, I feel this, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.439 I'm going to take action. Like that feels better in 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.640 the moment because we can run from the emotion when 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.879 actually what's most productive is for us to just have 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:56.800 that really uncomfortable five minutes that actually, long term is 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.280 better for us because we've better understand what's going on 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.480 within ourselves. Yeah, our brains really want to do the opposite, 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.840 because if something if I'm having a terrible feeling about 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.440 something and it's not a fact, technically, that's amazing. I'm 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:12.240 so glad, you know, um in general that I'm not 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.600 right about this thing. But in the moment, even if 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.840 it's something terrible, I think is going to happen. I 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.439 can't give up being right about it because I think 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:24.040 I'm protecting myself. And it wasn't until I learned really 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.879 how to feel feeling. And again I always thought I 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.360 was someone who did feel feelings. I can't cry easily. 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.639 I feel all the normal feelings that people feel at 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.919 the right times at funerals and weddings and holidays. But 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.320 when I'm anxious, I have to realize there's a feeling 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.600 underneath there, and if I can sit with it right, 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:44.680 I always want to take action get rid of the 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:46.520 anxiety or get rid of the thing that I think 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.520 is causing the anxiety. And often there's that feeling underneath 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.680 that's very human, and it's not one of the fun 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:57.280 feelings that you feel at a wedding or appropriate feeling 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.160 at funeral. It's like, I don't know, self doubt, own 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:04.040 or shame or something you know, And it's really hard 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:09.480 to want to sit with it, even though I guess 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:10.920 my point is it's really hard to want to sit 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:14.280 with it even though it really takes it takes a 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:19.080 lot less time to sit with it, right. Yeah, So 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.440 I used to do. I was very similar. I would 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.720 just like run from feelings because it felt productive. It 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:27.960 felt like, oh, and I can do it all. This 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:31.000 is a motivational tool or whatever. Um, and so I 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.359 would do something psychologists called anxious fixing, which you're sort 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.359 of describing, which is you feel a lot of anxiety, 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:41.000 and so you just start doing stuff. You vacuum the floor, 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.560 you wash the dishes, you get through your inbox, you 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.320 answer d ms on Twitter, whatever it might be, and 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.159 so you it feels good in the moment to cross 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.040 things off your to do list, and it kind of 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:54.719 distracts you from your anxiety. But usually at the end 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.280 of the day, what's happened is that you haven't addressed 0:21:57.320 --> 0:21:59.800 the root causes of what's making you anxious. You have 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.520 and sat with that emotion, and so now not only 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.399 are you exhausted because you've been running around in a frenzy, 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.560 but you also haven't made that anxiety go away. So 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.800 it's sort of worse at the end of the day. 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.520 Even though while you're frantically trying to get to in 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:19.560 box zero, it feels like you have control and everything's good. Um. 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.520 So you know it's the next time you feel this urge. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.080 I say this to myself all the time. Like, yeah, 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:27.359 we don't have to empty the dishwasher. We need to 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.320 sit and understand where the anxiety has come from from. 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.600 That's long term what's better for you. It's so hard, 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:37.560 and I definitely am an anxious fixer. And I love 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.760 it to do list and I love to see in 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:43.679 box go to zero. I love everything crossed off. But 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.399 I know when I'm doing it in a way that like, 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:49.400 none of this needs to be done today. And it's 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:51.520 not just oh but I'm super productive. Why not? It's 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.560 like something's under there. And if I managed to get 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:58.639 all the two dues done by the time it's time 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:00.679 to go to bed, I have that feeling. It's like 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.560