1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Okay, so, how are you going to start this? 2 00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:26,916 Speaker 2: Well, I'm really excited. This is kind of new for us. 3 00:00:27,236 --> 00:00:32,396 Speaker 1: Absolutely a little role reversal. Amy gains McQuaid as my producer. 4 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:35,236 Speaker 1: She's worked on the past four seasons of deep Cover. 5 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:38,716 Speaker 1: It may not have heard Amy's voice about in effect 6 00:00:38,996 --> 00:00:42,156 Speaker 1: you did, because when we do a season of deep Cover, 7 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:45,516 Speaker 1: Amy's the one that reads through all thousand pages of 8 00:00:45,516 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: the court transcript and knows every last detail. She's the 9 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: one who helps me track down sources and wed through 10 00:00:52,116 --> 00:00:55,076 Speaker 1: hours of interviews to make the episodes that you've heard. 11 00:00:56,396 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: So while we're hard at work on the next season 12 00:00:58,796 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 1: of deep Cover, we have a special mini series for 13 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:05,036 Speaker 1: you in a brand new format. About a year ago. 14 00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:08,036 Speaker 1: Amy comes to me and says, look, there's this story 15 00:01:08,076 --> 00:01:10,796 Speaker 1: I really want to report. A story that took place 16 00:01:10,916 --> 00:01:13,836 Speaker 1: in fact where Amy grown up, A story about a 17 00:01:13,876 --> 00:01:17,396 Speaker 1: man who may just be one of the greatest liars 18 00:01:17,676 --> 00:01:21,316 Speaker 1: of all time, which got my attention because it sounded 19 00:01:21,316 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 1: an awful lot like a deep Cover story unfolding in 20 00:01:25,396 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: real time. 21 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:30,676 Speaker 2: George Anthony de Volder Santos, Oh. 22 00:01:30,556 --> 00:01:32,516 Speaker 3: Good morning, chabach allom too, everybody. 23 00:01:33,516 --> 00:01:36,636 Speaker 2: This is him speaking to the Republican Jewish Coalition in 24 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. 25 00:01:38,116 --> 00:01:41,036 Speaker 3: I'm a first generation born American, like many in our 26 00:01:41,076 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 3: great nation. My parents came to this country in search 27 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:45,596 Speaker 3: of the American dream. 28 00:01:45,996 --> 00:01:46,356 Speaker 4: Today. 29 00:01:46,796 --> 00:01:49,196 Speaker 2: He ran for Congress to represent New York's third District 30 00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:52,076 Speaker 2: on Long Island, which is where I grew up. And 31 00:01:52,276 --> 00:01:55,276 Speaker 2: a huge part of his message was this that he 32 00:01:55,916 --> 00:02:00,676 Speaker 2: was the embodiment of the American dream. And that message 33 00:02:00,676 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 2: worked because he won. 34 00:02:02,636 --> 00:02:05,596 Speaker 3: Only in this country can the little boy born in 35 00:02:05,596 --> 00:02:08,476 Speaker 3: a basement apartment in Jackson Heights, Queens in New York 36 00:02:08,516 --> 00:02:12,236 Speaker 3: City become a United States congressman at thirty four? 37 00:02:13,636 --> 00:02:16,116 Speaker 1: Okay, interesting, So I know there's a lot more that 38 00:02:16,196 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 1: he said on the campaign trail, but can you just 39 00:02:18,876 --> 00:02:19,796 Speaker 1: give me the recap. 40 00:02:20,476 --> 00:02:23,556 Speaker 2: So the version of George Santos that he sold on 41 00:02:23,596 --> 00:02:28,316 Speaker 2: the campaign trail was that George Stantos was a successful 42 00:02:28,356 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 2: businessman working in the financial industry. He claimed that he'd 43 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 2: worked for Goldman, Sachs and City Group. He claimed that 44 00:02:36,876 --> 00:02:40,836 Speaker 2: he had gone to college at Baruch and NYU. He 45 00:02:40,876 --> 00:02:44,396 Speaker 2: had also told some stories about his personal life. 46 00:02:44,916 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 4: I'm very proud of my Jewish heritage. I'm very proud 47 00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:49,036 Speaker 4: of my grandparents' story. 48 00:02:49,156 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 2: Claiming Jewish heritage and said that some of his family 49 00:02:52,676 --> 00:02:56,676 Speaker 2: members had survived the Holocaust. Here he is speaking to 50 00:02:56,916 --> 00:02:58,996 Speaker 2: a reporter for a Jewish news service. 51 00:02:59,476 --> 00:03:01,676 Speaker 4: I'm so proud to be able to keep our family 52 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:04,076 Speaker 4: going forward and showing that not only did we survive, 53 00:03:04,516 --> 00:03:07,036 Speaker 4: but now I'm able to go advocate and fight for 54 00:03:07,236 --> 00:03:09,996 Speaker 4: other Jewish people all across my my district. 55 00:03:10,676 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 2: So the story that he told was an inspiring one. 56 00:03:14,396 --> 00:03:18,476 Speaker 2: Here he was the son of Brazilian immigrants who had 57 00:03:18,516 --> 00:03:21,996 Speaker 2: built this impressive life for himself, living in New York 58 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:25,436 Speaker 2: City as an openly gay man, working on Wall Street, 59 00:03:26,036 --> 00:03:29,956 Speaker 2: getting into politics, and it seemed like this moment when 60 00:03:30,036 --> 00:03:33,276 Speaker 2: he won would just be the cherry on top. He 61 00:03:33,436 --> 00:03:34,836 Speaker 2: was going to be a congressman. 62 00:03:35,396 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 1: I mean, it's inspiring. I'm kind of inspired hearing it. 63 00:03:39,356 --> 00:03:43,876 Speaker 2: But in the coming weeks and months, another narrative would 64 00:03:43,956 --> 00:03:49,236 Speaker 2: start to emerge, a different version of George Santos, one 65 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:52,396 Speaker 2: that was far more alarming. And if it were true, 66 00:03:52,596 --> 00:03:56,956 Speaker 2: then this was a man who lied, cheated, and stole 67 00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:01,556 Speaker 2: from people who trusted him, basically one man with two faces, 68 00:04:02,316 --> 00:04:06,756 Speaker 2: and it left a lot of people, including myself, wondering 69 00:04:07,596 --> 00:04:12,276 Speaker 2: who is the real George Santos. I think the thing 70 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 2: that a lot of people might remember is the New 71 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 2: York Times story that broke in December of twenty twenty two, 72 00:04:19,716 --> 00:04:21,156 Speaker 2: because it was pretty explosive. 73 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:23,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that headline. 74 00:04:23,476 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 2: The story revealed that Santos had essentially fabricated a lot 75 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:32,156 Speaker 2: of information on his resume. But through my reporting, I've 76 00:04:32,156 --> 00:04:34,956 Speaker 2: been finding that that story was really just the beginning. 77 00:04:35,956 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 2: So George Santos is actually scheduled to go to trial 78 00:04:38,636 --> 00:04:42,316 Speaker 2: in just a few weeks in September. He's facing a 79 00:04:42,356 --> 00:04:49,036 Speaker 2: whole bunch of charges, wirefraud, money laundering, falsifying records, identity theft, 80 00:04:49,876 --> 00:04:53,516 Speaker 2: a whole bunch. I've been talking with lots of people 81 00:04:53,836 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 2: to essentially try and figure out how did George Santos 82 00:04:57,676 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 2: go from lies about where he went to school and 83 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 2: where he worked to allegations of serious federal crimes, crimes 84 00:05:05,196 --> 00:05:07,476 Speaker 2: that could land him in prison for roughly two decades, 85 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:11,596 Speaker 2: and just how deep to his go. This is deep 86 00:05:11,636 --> 00:05:25,876 Speaker 2: Cover George Santos, Episode one the campaign. Jake, I want 87 00:05:25,876 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 2: to go back in time to that moment when the 88 00:05:27,916 --> 00:05:31,916 Speaker 2: New York Times story broke, because that's when the cracks 89 00:05:31,996 --> 00:05:37,156 Speaker 2: in Santos's facade really start to show. Okay, So two 90 00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:39,836 Speaker 2: journalists at the New York Times, their names are Grace 91 00:05:39,996 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 2: Ashford and Michael Gold, they come out with this massive story. 92 00:05:44,996 --> 00:05:49,276 Speaker 2: It's called who is Rep. Elect George Santos? His resume 93 00:05:49,596 --> 00:05:53,956 Speaker 2: may be largely fiction. The headline from this story is really, 94 00:05:54,676 --> 00:05:58,916 Speaker 2: maybe this guy isn't who he claimed to be? And 95 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:02,356 Speaker 2: that for me was a moment where I heard from 96 00:06:02,396 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 2: basically everyone in my life who knew I was from 97 00:06:05,036 --> 00:06:07,276 Speaker 2: Long Island and knew that I worked on stories like this, 98 00:06:07,436 --> 00:06:12,036 Speaker 2: and just you know, asking me, what the fuck what 99 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 2: happened here? Who is this guy? And how did he 100 00:06:15,316 --> 00:06:19,556 Speaker 2: get elected? He's, you know, living this double life essentially 101 00:06:19,596 --> 00:06:21,516 Speaker 2: who he says he is in public, but who he 102 00:06:21,596 --> 00:06:24,756 Speaker 2: actually is in private. And one person who is in 103 00:06:25,036 --> 00:06:29,436 Speaker 2: the center of this mess was George Santos's communications director. 104 00:06:30,276 --> 00:06:33,556 Speaker 2: Her name is Nasa Woomer. Do you remember where you 105 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 2: were when the New York Times story broke? Oh? 106 00:06:36,636 --> 00:06:36,996 Speaker 5: I do? 107 00:06:37,236 --> 00:06:41,956 Speaker 6: I know exactly where. I was actually coming out of 108 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 6: the Starbucks and it broke, and I was heading into 109 00:06:46,796 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 6: our office right by the State House. 110 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:52,396 Speaker 2: And the timing here is really interesting because she actually 111 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:56,716 Speaker 2: accepted the job right before the New York Times story broke. 112 00:06:57,156 --> 00:07:00,556 Speaker 6: Everyone is sending like, Niassa, have you seen this? Oh 113 00:07:00,556 --> 00:07:03,116 Speaker 6: my god, is this the guy you're working for? My 114 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 6: stomach had dropped, and I thought, what the well, I 115 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:09,796 Speaker 6: don't want to say the F bomb, but but that's 116 00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 6: what I'm thinking. 117 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:13,196 Speaker 1: At this point, like how many days on the job 118 00:07:13,316 --> 00:07:13,516 Speaker 1: is she? 119 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:16,796 Speaker 2: By the way, so Nesa hasn't actually started working for 120 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:20,956 Speaker 2: Santos in that moment. She's still working in Boston for 121 00:07:21,076 --> 00:07:25,276 Speaker 2: the Republican administration there, so she's not actually even in 122 00:07:25,316 --> 00:07:28,676 Speaker 2: touch with George Santos. But she did hear through the 123 00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 2: grapevine through some staffer that a story about Santos would 124 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 2: be coming. 125 00:07:34,076 --> 00:07:35,956 Speaker 6: I already knew there was going to be a hit piece, 126 00:07:36,396 --> 00:07:39,436 Speaker 6: but my understanding was that this was just going to 127 00:07:39,516 --> 00:07:41,156 Speaker 6: be We thought it was going to be a traditional 128 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:45,156 Speaker 6: hit piece of conservative Republican Flip's Democrat seat. 129 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:47,796 Speaker 2: But of course that was not the New York Times 130 00:07:47,796 --> 00:07:51,236 Speaker 2: story at all. The New York Times story made clear 131 00:07:51,276 --> 00:07:54,156 Speaker 2: that a lot of the stories that George Santos had 132 00:07:54,156 --> 00:07:58,076 Speaker 2: told on the campaign trail were at best inaccurate, at 133 00:07:58,076 --> 00:08:04,396 Speaker 2: worst entirely fabricated. And so after the story publishes, Santos 134 00:08:04,396 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 2: comes out with this statement through his attorney that says 135 00:08:09,276 --> 00:08:13,316 Speaker 2: it's no surprise that Congressman elect Santos has enemies at 136 00:08:13,356 --> 00:08:16,076 Speaker 2: The New York Times who are attempting to smear his 137 00:08:16,076 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 2: good name with these defamatory allegations. 138 00:08:19,156 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 6: I even spoke with the chief of Stuff and he 139 00:08:21,236 --> 00:08:24,196 Speaker 6: said he's speaking with his lawyers. They're going to handle it. 140 00:08:24,236 --> 00:08:26,916 Speaker 6: And I just said, okay, well, like they need to 141 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:32,116 Speaker 6: handle it immediately, because you know, this is this is 142 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 6: really bad. 143 00:08:34,196 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 1: And is Santo's freaking out at this point. 144 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:39,356 Speaker 2: So I can't vouch for how Santos is feeling because 145 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:40,756 Speaker 2: I have not spoken with him directly. 146 00:08:41,196 --> 00:08:42,876 Speaker 1: We've tried, yes. 147 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:45,556 Speaker 2: Yes, we've reached out to him for comment. So far 148 00:08:45,636 --> 00:08:50,476 Speaker 2: he's declined those requests. But Santos appears to have been 149 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:55,676 Speaker 2: attempting some damage control. He's not giving a ton of interviews, 150 00:08:55,676 --> 00:08:58,716 Speaker 2: but he does grant one to Fox News and it's 151 00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:02,396 Speaker 2: a guest anchor, so it is Tulca Gabbard conducting the interview. 152 00:09:02,876 --> 00:09:04,916 Speaker 7: First question I really want to ask you now that 153 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:08,356 Speaker 7: all this has been revealed, is what does the word 154 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:09,996 Speaker 7: integrity mean to you? 155 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 3: Well, Tulsi, thank you for having me, you know, to 156 00:09:14,396 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 3: answer your question. Integrity is very important, and bellis What 157 00:09:18,276 --> 00:09:18,796 Speaker 3: does it mean? 158 00:09:18,836 --> 00:09:18,996 Speaker 5: Though? 159 00:09:19,356 --> 00:09:19,916 Speaker 2: What does it mean? 160 00:09:19,956 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 7: Because the meaning of the word actually matters in practice. 161 00:09:24,316 --> 00:09:27,916 Speaker 3: Of course, it means to carry yourself in an honorable way. 162 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:30,876 Speaker 3: And I made a mistake, and I think humans are 163 00:09:30,916 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 3: flawed and we all make mistakes. 164 00:09:32,476 --> 00:09:33,636 Speaker 2: Tulsi, this is. 165 00:09:33,636 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 1: Fox News and he's a Republican and he's getting very 166 00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:39,916 Speaker 1: hostile treatment here. So, I mean, lord knows what would 167 00:09:39,916 --> 00:09:43,676 Speaker 1: happen if he had gone on MSNBC or even CNN. 168 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:49,436 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how is this playing out with his constituents. 169 00:09:50,156 --> 00:09:54,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I remember the reaction was pretty swift. 170 00:09:55,516 --> 00:10:03,076 Speaker 5: George Chantlis's campaign last year was a campaign of decei, lies, fabrication. 171 00:10:04,036 --> 00:10:07,196 Speaker 5: He deceived the voters of the third Congressional district. 172 00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:11,276 Speaker 2: That's Joe Chiro, head of the Republican Party in Nasa County. 173 00:10:11,556 --> 00:10:14,796 Speaker 2: This is from a press conference they held where he, 174 00:10:14,996 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 2: along with other New York Republicans, actually ask for Santos' resignation. 175 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 8: There's absolutely no way mister Santos can be an effective 176 00:10:23,636 --> 00:10:29,956 Speaker 8: member of Congress and represent the people who elected him. 177 00:10:30,316 --> 00:10:32,316 Speaker 1: One of the questions I have is like, talk to 178 00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:37,516 Speaker 1: me about this district that elects him. 179 00:10:37,956 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 2: Yeah. So Santos ran in New York's third congressional district, 180 00:10:41,596 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 2: which if you've ever looked at a political map, you 181 00:10:44,076 --> 00:10:46,876 Speaker 2: know these districts get drawn in a kind of crazy, 182 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:50,796 Speaker 2: nonsensical way. When you look at the district itself, it 183 00:10:50,996 --> 00:10:54,196 Speaker 2: holds part of Nasa County, which is where I grew up, 184 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:57,476 Speaker 2: and specifically in my neighborhood, I can say it's a 185 00:10:57,516 --> 00:11:01,236 Speaker 2: lot of working class folks, so people who commute into 186 00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:06,436 Speaker 2: New York City every day, cops, firefighters, teachers. It also 187 00:11:06,516 --> 00:11:09,356 Speaker 2: includes the north shore of Long Island, which is like 188 00:11:09,516 --> 00:11:13,276 Speaker 2: Gatspeak country. There's lots of big houses and old money. 189 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:16,836 Speaker 2: And over the years the district has changed, the lines 190 00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:19,836 Speaker 2: have been redrawn, but by the time that Santos was running, 191 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:23,396 Speaker 2: the district included a little sliver of Queens which is 192 00:11:23,476 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 2: actually where Santos grew up. 193 00:11:25,396 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 1: It's funny because when you describe it, I totally almost 194 00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:32,836 Speaker 1: get why he would have to be a guy, that 195 00:11:32,876 --> 00:11:34,716 Speaker 1: would be a chameleon, that would have to be able 196 00:11:34,916 --> 00:11:38,156 Speaker 1: to play a lot of different parts, because his constituency 197 00:11:38,356 --> 00:11:40,836 Speaker 1: is just like a crazy cross section of America. 198 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:45,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think when George Santos is running for office, 199 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 2: he is building the narrative around himself that he started 200 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 2: from nothing and built himself into a successful businessman in 201 00:11:56,156 --> 00:11:59,476 Speaker 2: the financial industry. So he claims that he was working 202 00:11:59,596 --> 00:12:02,836 Speaker 2: for Goldman Sachs, he claims that he was working for 203 00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:03,436 Speaker 2: City Group. 204 00:12:04,716 --> 00:12:06,676 Speaker 1: None of these things are true. None of that is 205 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:07,436 Speaker 1: a crime. 206 00:12:07,636 --> 00:12:11,436 Speaker 2: That's true. But it's around the same moment in time 207 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:15,476 Speaker 2: that new reports are emerging that Santos is being investigated 208 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:18,196 Speaker 2: for actual crimes he may have committed. 209 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:22,716 Speaker 9: The Republican District Attorney of Nassau County says she's looking 210 00:12:22,756 --> 00:12:26,796 Speaker 9: into whether any of those fabrications amounted to crimes, and 211 00:12:26,916 --> 00:12:32,316 Speaker 9: federal prosecutors are also looking into Santos's financial disclosures. Stunning 212 00:12:32,356 --> 00:12:36,276 Speaker 9: revelations and questions about his personal and professional life continue 213 00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:38,996 Speaker 9: to come to light, including new questions about the money 214 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:40,356 Speaker 9: he spent on his campaign. 215 00:12:42,396 --> 00:13:02,356 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. So when the New York Times 216 00:13:02,356 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 2: story comes out, there are a number of things that 217 00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 2: are exposed, but there are also a lot of questions remaining. 218 00:13:09,916 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 2: And so I think, you know, reporters, especially reporters who 219 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 2: are working in DC can kind of smell blood in 220 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 2: the water, right, and they're like, what else can I 221 00:13:18,916 --> 00:13:19,956 Speaker 2: find out about this guy? 222 00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:22,916 Speaker 10: I was trying to cover the New York area because 223 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:25,796 Speaker 10: I'm a New Yorker, and I understood that there was 224 00:13:25,836 --> 00:13:30,236 Speaker 10: this buzz that there were some members that might actually 225 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:34,436 Speaker 10: overcome some of the Democratic nominees that were running for Congress. 226 00:13:34,956 --> 00:13:38,116 Speaker 2: Okay, Jake. So this is Kadea Goba, and she's a 227 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:41,836 Speaker 2: political reporter for Semaphore, which is this sort of newer 228 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 2: journalism outlet. 229 00:13:43,396 --> 00:13:46,156 Speaker 10: So I set out in October to interview a bunch 230 00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:50,156 Speaker 10: of them. George Santos did not give me access after 231 00:13:50,236 --> 00:13:53,796 Speaker 10: he won. He was like, he became a challenge to me. 232 00:13:53,876 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 10: I needed to talk to this man. 233 00:13:56,516 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 2: Kadia actually worked at BuzzFeed before she was with Semaphore, 234 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:03,396 Speaker 2: but she hasn't always been a journalist. This is a 235 00:14:03,476 --> 00:14:04,116 Speaker 2: second career. 236 00:14:04,716 --> 00:14:10,196 Speaker 10: I was in the clothing industry for over two decades 237 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 10: as a sales rep. So this is sort of a 238 00:14:12,636 --> 00:14:16,596 Speaker 10: midlife crisis that worked out anyways. 239 00:14:16,596 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 2: So near the end of twenty twenty two, Kadilla is 240 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:24,036 Speaker 2: working as a reporter on Capitol Hill and she meets 241 00:14:24,236 --> 00:14:28,036 Speaker 2: George Santos, in person. She gave him her card. You know, 242 00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:30,636 Speaker 2: I'm a reporter working on the hill, would love to 243 00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:34,116 Speaker 2: be in touch, but he doesn't give her his But 244 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 2: she gets his phone number anyways, and she wants to 245 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:40,636 Speaker 2: talk to him, so she's calling a lot, even though 246 00:14:40,676 --> 00:14:43,356 Speaker 2: he would never pick up until this one time. 247 00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:46,956 Speaker 10: I remember very distinctly he either called me back or 248 00:14:47,516 --> 00:14:51,156 Speaker 10: picked up the phone this one time and said, I 249 00:14:51,236 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 10: remember not giving you my phone number, which I thought 250 00:14:54,116 --> 00:14:57,716 Speaker 10: was very funny because he understood who had been calling him, 251 00:14:57,836 --> 00:14:59,676 Speaker 10: but just was intentionally ignoring me. 252 00:14:59,956 --> 00:15:00,356 Speaker 2: Whatever. 253 00:15:00,476 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 10: Fine, He eventually picked up the phone, and he told 254 00:15:02,836 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 10: me that at that time he was going on Fox, 255 00:15:06,236 --> 00:15:09,596 Speaker 10: that I shouldn't tell anyone, but maybe he could talk 256 00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:10,676 Speaker 10: to me afterwards. 257 00:15:11,276 --> 00:15:14,036 Speaker 1: Wait, this is the same interview that we heard at 258 00:15:14,036 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 1: the top with Tulci Gabbard. 259 00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:16,916 Speaker 2: Yep. 260 00:15:17,756 --> 00:15:22,356 Speaker 10: So I watched the interview and it went terribly. 261 00:15:22,836 --> 00:15:25,156 Speaker 2: My question is do you have no shame? 262 00:15:25,836 --> 00:15:29,556 Speaker 3: Look, I understand everybody wants to knitpick at me. I'm 263 00:15:29,596 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 3: going to reassure this once and for all. I'm not 264 00:15:32,836 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 3: a facade. I'm not a persona. 265 00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:38,356 Speaker 10: You could tell he was uncomfortable. It wasn't what he expected. 266 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:40,556 Speaker 10: I think he thought this was going to be a 267 00:15:40,596 --> 00:15:44,116 Speaker 10: good opportunity for him to talk about what happened or 268 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:48,596 Speaker 10: explain his situation, and none of that happened. So of 269 00:15:48,676 --> 00:15:51,716 Speaker 10: course I kind of just texted him after the interview 270 00:15:51,836 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 10: was over and kind of said like, are you free 271 00:15:55,276 --> 00:15:59,116 Speaker 10: or do you want to talk? And he texted back 272 00:15:59,316 --> 00:16:02,316 Speaker 10: like something like get your pen and paper ready. 273 00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:07,476 Speaker 1: Wow. That kind of surprises me. Given how badly it went, 274 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:10,196 Speaker 1: you think maybe he would be a little guns Oh. 275 00:16:10,316 --> 00:16:13,396 Speaker 2: I think Kadilla's view was the opposite that. You know, 276 00:16:13,476 --> 00:16:15,636 Speaker 2: he thought that the Fox interview would be a good 277 00:16:15,676 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 2: opportunity and then when it went so poorly, he's just 278 00:16:18,716 --> 00:16:21,756 Speaker 2: kind of panicking, and he's he's open to talking to 279 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:25,236 Speaker 2: people because he wants to clear the air. Right, he's 280 00:16:25,236 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 2: in crisis mode, I see. 281 00:16:27,236 --> 00:16:29,516 Speaker 1: So yeah, they just get back up to the plate 282 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:30,476 Speaker 1: again kind of thing. 283 00:16:31,076 --> 00:16:34,756 Speaker 10: And sure enough, like maybe fifteen minutes later, he called me, 284 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 10: and I think I talked to him as he drove 285 00:16:38,756 --> 00:16:40,516 Speaker 10: from the Fox studio home. 286 00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:43,076 Speaker 2: So what is your goal in that interview? What is 287 00:16:43,116 --> 00:16:44,876 Speaker 2: the big question you want to ask? 288 00:16:45,276 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 10: Clearly I want to ask where he got his money from, 289 00:16:47,396 --> 00:16:49,156 Speaker 10: because that was like the big discrepancy. 290 00:16:49,276 --> 00:16:53,636 Speaker 2: Right, He had presented himself on the campaign trail as 291 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 2: this wealthy, successful individual. How much money does he have 292 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:01,356 Speaker 2: really and what is the source of that money? 293 00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:03,996 Speaker 1: So this is what Kadia is talking about, the big 294 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 1: the discrepancy and where did the money come from? 295 00:17:06,676 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Kadia is following this, and I think it 296 00:17:08,796 --> 00:17:10,756 Speaker 2: would be fair to say that a lot of reporters 297 00:17:10,756 --> 00:17:14,436 Speaker 2: were fixated on this question at the time of you know, okay, 298 00:17:14,476 --> 00:17:18,036 Speaker 2: George Santos has been exposed as a potential liar. What 299 00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:21,676 Speaker 2: else could he be lying about? It appears on paper 300 00:17:22,196 --> 00:17:24,716 Speaker 2: like George Santos has a lot of money, but is 301 00:17:24,716 --> 00:17:27,836 Speaker 2: that actually the case? And it's around this time that 302 00:17:28,076 --> 00:17:31,876 Speaker 2: many people start looking at his campaign finance filings. And 303 00:17:31,956 --> 00:17:35,276 Speaker 2: one of those people is a guy named Sarav Ghosh. 304 00:17:35,796 --> 00:17:39,356 Speaker 11: I'm the director of Federal Campaign Finance Reform at Campaign 305 00:17:39,396 --> 00:17:42,596 Speaker 11: Legal Center, and what I work on every day are 306 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 11: the laws that govern how people raise and spend money 307 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:51,316 Speaker 11: when they're trying to convince others to vote for them. 308 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:54,396 Speaker 2: He was a lawyer at the FEC, which is the 309 00:17:54,436 --> 00:17:59,036 Speaker 2: Federal Election Commission, and it's basically Sarov's job to find 310 00:17:59,116 --> 00:18:01,716 Speaker 2: people violating campaign finance laws. 311 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:03,996 Speaker 1: I see, so he's like a nonprofit do good or 312 00:18:03,996 --> 00:18:06,236 Speaker 1: private detective exactly. 313 00:18:07,036 --> 00:18:10,716 Speaker 2: So Siav and his team would eventually file a complaint 314 00:18:10,836 --> 00:18:15,516 Speaker 2: with the Federal Election Commission, and some of the things 315 00:18:15,516 --> 00:18:18,676 Speaker 2: that they flag actually show up later on in the 316 00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 2: federal indictment against Santos. 317 00:18:20,756 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 1: Interesting, I see. 318 00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:25,516 Speaker 2: Uh, you know that week between Christmas and New Year's 319 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 2: when basically no one wants to work. Yeah, definitely that 320 00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 2: week Surav and his team were actually surprisingly busy. They 321 00:18:34,956 --> 00:18:39,556 Speaker 2: started reviewing santosis campaign finance filings, and a few things 322 00:18:39,676 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 2: stick out to Surrov right away. 323 00:18:41,796 --> 00:18:47,036 Speaker 11: There was this glaring disconnect between his personal finances, as 324 00:18:47,036 --> 00:18:51,676 Speaker 11: he had reported on financial disclosure form that every House 325 00:18:51,716 --> 00:18:56,076 Speaker 11: candidate is required to file, and his campaign reports, which 326 00:18:56,516 --> 00:19:00,956 Speaker 11: indicated he had loaned his own campaign a ton of money, 327 00:19:01,236 --> 00:19:04,436 Speaker 11: a six figure sum north of seven hundred thousand dollars. 328 00:19:04,596 --> 00:19:05,036 Speaker 2: Wow. 329 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:08,596 Speaker 11: So it's it's very I won't say comment, it's not 330 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 11: unheard for a candidate to loan his own campaign that 331 00:19:12,436 --> 00:19:14,916 Speaker 11: kind of money, or even to just give it to 332 00:19:14,956 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 11: the campaign outright, but you typically expect to see backing 333 00:19:19,636 --> 00:19:24,076 Speaker 11: that up a financial disclosure that shows, well, this person 334 00:19:24,156 --> 00:19:27,116 Speaker 11: is wealthy, right, they have the assets, they have the income. 335 00:19:27,516 --> 00:19:29,436 Speaker 11: With Santos, it was the exact opposite. 336 00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:32,356 Speaker 2: So one thing quickly that I should just mention to you. 337 00:19:32,476 --> 00:19:37,916 Speaker 2: Jake Santos actually ran for Congress twice. He ran first 338 00:19:37,956 --> 00:19:42,076 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty. He lost. SIREV look through those records too, 339 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:48,156 Speaker 2: he claimed to loan his unsuccessful twenty twenty campaign something 340 00:19:48,236 --> 00:19:52,076 Speaker 2: like eighty thousand dollars. That didn't really make sense because 341 00:19:52,116 --> 00:19:56,396 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty he had personal assets and income of 342 00:19:56,476 --> 00:19:59,596 Speaker 2: just fifty five thousand dollars according to his self reporting, 343 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:02,196 Speaker 2: So it was just fifty five thousand dollars. 344 00:20:02,276 --> 00:20:05,276 Speaker 11: Fifty five thousand, yeah, wow, So it made no sense 345 00:20:05,316 --> 00:20:08,196 Speaker 11: how somebody with fifty five thousand dollars could even afford 346 00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:10,876 Speaker 11: to loan his campag eighty thousand dollars. 347 00:20:11,476 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 2: So what Suraba is outlining here is that alongside those 348 00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:18,876 Speaker 2: campaign filings, he's supposed to also be reporting what kind 349 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:21,196 Speaker 2: of income he's making, what kind of assets he has. 350 00:20:21,716 --> 00:20:24,796 Speaker 2: And Surav's looking at this and just truly saying the 351 00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:27,836 Speaker 2: math isn't adding up. And then when you get to 352 00:20:27,916 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, when he's running the second time, he's 353 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:34,956 Speaker 2: loaning his campaign even more money that there's one loan 354 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:37,956 Speaker 2: in particular of five hundred thousand dollars. In March of 355 00:20:37,996 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, Santos files a disclosure form that lists 356 00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:47,676 Speaker 2: his assets and income. In this document, you can see 357 00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:51,876 Speaker 2: he lists an apartment in Brazil that he values somewhere 358 00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,036 Speaker 2: between half a million and a million dollars. He says 359 00:20:55,076 --> 00:20:57,636 Speaker 2: he has somewhere between one hundred and two hundred and 360 00:20:57,636 --> 00:21:00,916 Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars in a checking account. And then there's 361 00:21:00,916 --> 00:21:05,876 Speaker 2: this business called the Devolder Organization, and he values the 362 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:10,916 Speaker 2: Devolder Organization as somewhere between a million and five million dollars. 363 00:21:11,316 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 11: That's one of his surnames as de Vold. And he 364 00:21:14,716 --> 00:21:19,196 Speaker 11: claimed that this organization, which was founded within months of 365 00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:22,596 Speaker 11: losing in the twenty twenty election, he claimed that this 366 00:21:22,716 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 11: company was basically an overnight success story. 367 00:21:26,716 --> 00:21:27,596 Speaker 1: And he was. 368 00:21:27,796 --> 00:21:32,716 Speaker 11: Very ambiguous and sketchy, quite quite honestly about what the 369 00:21:32,756 --> 00:21:36,036 Speaker 11: company did and how it made so much money overnight. 370 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 1: So he's filing these disclosures with the House, is that correct? 371 00:21:42,036 --> 00:21:42,436 Speaker 2: Correct? 372 00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:46,116 Speaker 1: Basically saying like, look, I've got this apartment in Brazil, 373 00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:50,356 Speaker 1: I've got this company over here, Like yeah, I'm a 374 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:53,756 Speaker 1: wealthy man like I am more than capable of loading 375 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:58,396 Speaker 1: my campaign this money. And my question is was that true? 376 00:21:58,436 --> 00:22:02,476 Speaker 1: Did he actually have any of these assets or was 377 00:22:02,516 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 1: this also part of his fabulous's tale. 378 00:22:05,716 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 2: So Sarav is looking at this and to be very clear, 379 00:22:09,116 --> 00:22:11,876 Speaker 2: sav does not believe the financial disclosure form. I think 380 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 2: also because he's looking at the previous forms and just saying, 381 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:18,796 Speaker 2: how did this materialize overnight? Right? And he's also suspicious 382 00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 2: of like what's driving this income? And that is a 383 00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:25,756 Speaker 2: question that Kadella, the reporter you heard from earlier, is 384 00:22:25,956 --> 00:22:29,076 Speaker 2: also very interested in getting an answer to you know, 385 00:22:29,436 --> 00:22:32,036 Speaker 2: what is going on with George Santos and his money, 386 00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:36,316 Speaker 2: Where is this alleged income coming from? And just to say, 387 00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:39,276 Speaker 2: if it's not already clear, all of this is happening 388 00:22:39,356 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 2: at the same time. So we have Sarav, who's our watchdog. 389 00:22:44,316 --> 00:22:47,436 Speaker 2: Him and his team are digging into these campaign finance 390 00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:50,876 Speaker 2: reports in the week between Christmas and New Year's and 391 00:22:51,196 --> 00:22:57,396 Speaker 2: that same week, Kadea, the clothing sales rep turned journalist, 392 00:22:57,676 --> 00:23:01,676 Speaker 2: is trying to get that interview with George Santos and 393 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:05,236 Speaker 2: she's going to finally get it in the moment after 394 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:09,556 Speaker 2: his disastrous interview on Fox, and so he's actually calling 395 00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 2: her on the drive home from the Fox studio. 396 00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:16,676 Speaker 10: This is also eight o'clock at night, So I'm like 397 00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:20,716 Speaker 10: in my apartment. You know, Congress has been out for 398 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 10: weeks now, and I was like, I can't believe this 399 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:26,436 Speaker 10: is happening. I'm actually interviewing this guy that everyone is 400 00:23:26,476 --> 00:23:30,916 Speaker 10: talking about. So I was working with like a Hanvis 401 00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 10: and kind of was just like, so, how'd you. 402 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:35,396 Speaker 2: Get all of this money? That was like my first question. 403 00:23:36,196 --> 00:23:39,556 Speaker 10: He gave this scenario where like, okay, let's say someone 404 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:42,516 Speaker 10: buys a boat and they don't want to go through 405 00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:47,396 Speaker 10: like the normal chain, they want a smaller broken tree. 406 00:23:47,476 --> 00:23:50,116 Speaker 10: I come in and I kind of negotiate the deal 407 00:23:51,276 --> 00:23:54,996 Speaker 10: and you know, introduce them to potential sellers. And he 408 00:23:55,076 --> 00:23:57,716 Speaker 10: called this thing capital intro. He kept saying capital Intro, 409 00:23:57,756 --> 00:23:59,436 Speaker 10: and I was like, well, what is that? And he 410 00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:04,916 Speaker 10: explained that capital introduction you basically just connect hedge fund 411 00:24:04,996 --> 00:24:07,556 Speaker 10: people with investors. 412 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 2: Essentially. What is. 413 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:10,716 Speaker 12: That? 414 00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 1: Doesn't even really make sense to me, Like how does? 415 00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:18,676 Speaker 1: But okay, so he's like he's like a connector. I mean, 416 00:24:19,396 --> 00:24:21,076 Speaker 1: had the guy ever actually sold a boat? 417 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 2: The New York Times would later report that the FBI 418 00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:27,236 Speaker 2: was curious about this question too, and in fact, there 419 00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:31,516 Speaker 2: was at least one yacht sale that Santos brokered while 420 00:24:31,556 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 2: he was running for Congress that there are a lot 421 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:36,916 Speaker 2: of questions about. But that's about all we know, Okay, 422 00:24:37,236 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 2: But jumping back to December twenty twenty two, Kadella just 423 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:46,156 Speaker 2: had that interview with George Santos and he told her 424 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:49,996 Speaker 2: that he works in capital introduction. This is what Kadea 425 00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:54,676 Speaker 2: reports attributing to George Santos, of course, and that brings 426 00:24:54,756 --> 00:25:00,276 Speaker 2: us back to Sarav, who reads Kadia's reporting, And for Sarav, 427 00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:04,516 Speaker 2: it's just not really checking out. And I think even 428 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:08,076 Speaker 2: if what Santos told Kadea is true, maybe he did 429 00:25:08,436 --> 00:25:13,556 Speaker 2: sell a boat or two, but from Sarab's perspective, this 430 00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:17,156 Speaker 2: still doesn't really account for the massive cash windfall that 431 00:25:17,236 --> 00:25:20,956 Speaker 2: he appears to have almost overnight, I see. And so 432 00:25:20,996 --> 00:25:24,596 Speaker 2: Sarav's question, and what he's trying to piece together through 433 00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:28,836 Speaker 2: the reporting that's emerging is what is the full picture 434 00:25:28,996 --> 00:25:32,996 Speaker 2: of Devolder? You know, what kind of business is Devolder doing? 435 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:35,836 Speaker 2: What kind of money is Devolder bringing in right? 436 00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:38,716 Speaker 1: And is it enough business that it could explain these 437 00:25:38,796 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 1: massive contributions of the campaign. What half a million dollars 438 00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:43,316 Speaker 1: right exactly? 439 00:25:43,356 --> 00:25:45,636 Speaker 2: And so Sarab is just trying to connect these dots. 440 00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:50,036 Speaker 2: And there's two things that Sirov is fairly suspicious of. 441 00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:54,796 Speaker 2: The first is that Santos is not listing any clients 442 00:25:54,956 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 2: on these disclosure forms, and you know, Siav and multiple 443 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:02,836 Speaker 2: others flag that because if you're in this so called 444 00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:07,876 Speaker 2: capital introduction industry, you should have clients. That's basically the 445 00:26:07,916 --> 00:26:13,476 Speaker 2: whole business model. So that's concerning. The second is that 446 00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:17,956 Speaker 2: Sirov is also suspicious about the timing of all of this. 447 00:26:18,836 --> 00:26:23,916 Speaker 2: He notices that Santos declares his candidacy one month and 448 00:26:23,956 --> 00:26:28,076 Speaker 2: then he incorporates de Volder the next month, and then 449 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 2: he's making loans to his campaign the month after that. 450 00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 1: That's fucking crazy. 451 00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:37,916 Speaker 2: Like how many boats do you have to sell? A Yeah, 452 00:26:38,156 --> 00:26:38,756 Speaker 2: make that up. 453 00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 1: I mean, that's like the greatest success story of all 454 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:46,716 Speaker 1: the time if it's true. Dude sold some yachts mighty quick. 455 00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:52,116 Speaker 2: And there's something about that that's just not sitting right 456 00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:55,076 Speaker 2: with Sirov, and that leads him to wonder, Okay, where 457 00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:58,036 Speaker 2: is Santos actually getting this money from and he has 458 00:26:58,036 --> 00:26:58,956 Speaker 2: a couple theories about that. 459 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:03,156 Speaker 11: So in our mind, this was a possible straw donor scheme. 460 00:27:03,756 --> 00:27:06,996 Speaker 11: A straw donor scheme is basically a scheme in which 461 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:11,596 Speaker 11: someone is making a contribution to a candidate or a 462 00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:16,316 Speaker 11: pack through someone else. So Santos, in our mind, was 463 00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:20,196 Speaker 11: getting money from some external source. And that could be 464 00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:23,476 Speaker 11: a corporation, it could be a billionaire, it could be 465 00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:27,996 Speaker 11: a foreign national. So any of these possibilities struck us 466 00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:31,116 Speaker 11: as deeply problematic in our mind. You know, it wasn't 467 00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:34,916 Speaker 11: his money, it was someone else, and not knowing is 468 00:27:35,756 --> 00:27:37,756 Speaker 11: part of the problem, maybe the biggest problem. 469 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:41,876 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me because to me, I get why 470 00:27:41,916 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 1: Sarab thinks that it's a straw donor, because that's like, 471 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:47,596 Speaker 1: that's his his his purview, that's his job. He's looking 472 00:27:47,596 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 1: at people who are skirting finance campaign finance law. Right, 473 00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 1: he doesn't realize that he's actually going after like a hustler. 474 00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:00,756 Speaker 1: Is there a paper shail that shows like a deposit 475 00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: to his campaign coffers. 476 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:08,796 Speaker 2: That's not required. Okay, so he can say I loaned 477 00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 2: this out to my campaign, but he doesn't actually have 478 00:28:12,316 --> 00:28:15,756 Speaker 2: to back that up. With a wire transfer or a 479 00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:20,476 Speaker 2: bank account showing that money hits right. And so it's 480 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:24,916 Speaker 2: a requirement for transparency, but it's limited, and so he's 481 00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:29,076 Speaker 2: able to stay on paper. Yes, I am a wealthy businessman, 482 00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:32,476 Speaker 2: and I was able to loan my campaign this six 483 00:28:32,556 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 2: figure sum. 484 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:39,476 Speaker 1: I see, okay, because where I thought this was going 485 00:28:39,676 --> 00:28:44,356 Speaker 1: was that the loan was bullshit and this was just 486 00:28:44,396 --> 00:28:45,636 Speaker 1: a way for him to make money. 487 00:28:46,196 --> 00:28:49,476 Speaker 2: Well, you might be right about that, so, Jake. What 488 00:28:49,516 --> 00:28:53,276 Speaker 2: the government has alleged is that Santos lied in these 489 00:28:53,316 --> 00:28:58,956 Speaker 2: campaign finance reports in a sense inflating his fundraising numbers. 490 00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:05,596 Speaker 2: So prosecutors alleged that at least some of these loans 491 00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:10,316 Speaker 2: that Santos said he made to his campaign did not happen, 492 00:29:11,476 --> 00:29:16,916 Speaker 2: and they also alleged that he fudged these numbers for 493 00:29:16,996 --> 00:29:18,356 Speaker 2: a very specific reason. 494 00:29:19,476 --> 00:29:25,596 Speaker 11: Santos he understood that his campaign had to report earning 495 00:29:25,596 --> 00:29:28,236 Speaker 11: a certain amount or report raising a certain amount of 496 00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 11: money to get support from the party, and so that 497 00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:36,356 Speaker 11: was something that the investigations revealed, is that he had 498 00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:40,836 Speaker 11: emails where he was making it clear that he was 499 00:29:40,916 --> 00:29:44,716 Speaker 11: trying to establish, you know, that he'd hit those benchmarks 500 00:29:44,756 --> 00:29:48,316 Speaker 11: and so qualified for the kind of support from the 501 00:29:48,316 --> 00:29:52,876 Speaker 11: Republican Party that only folks with that amount of financial 502 00:29:53,076 --> 00:29:54,836 Speaker 11: viability would be able to receive. 503 00:29:55,796 --> 00:30:00,756 Speaker 1: If I'm understanding this correctly, and this guy is coming 504 00:30:00,796 --> 00:30:05,716 Speaker 1: in and selling a whole story about how much money 505 00:30:05,756 --> 00:30:10,236 Speaker 1: he made and how much money he's loaned his his campaign, 506 00:30:10,996 --> 00:30:17,156 Speaker 1: and it smells like bullshit. The question is to what end? 507 00:30:17,596 --> 00:30:20,316 Speaker 1: And if I'm understanding this correctly, he was actually trying 508 00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 1: to hustle the Republican Party basically, just to convince them 509 00:30:23,516 --> 00:30:28,076 Speaker 1: that he was healthier and stronger and a bigger baller 510 00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:28,836 Speaker 1: than he really was. 511 00:30:28,996 --> 00:30:31,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that there's a clear goal here, 512 00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:35,196 Speaker 2: and this is supported by what the government outlines in 513 00:30:35,236 --> 00:30:39,076 Speaker 2: the indictment. I mean, what they allege is that Santos 514 00:30:39,116 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 2: and his campaign treasurer Nancy Marx did this in order 515 00:30:42,876 --> 00:30:46,036 Speaker 2: to gain support from the Republican Party. And Nancy is 516 00:30:46,036 --> 00:30:50,476 Speaker 2: the person on his staff that is responsible for those filings. Now, 517 00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:54,076 Speaker 2: I should tell you Nancy Marx took a plea deal 518 00:30:54,156 --> 00:30:57,916 Speaker 2: last year for her role in some of this, and 519 00:30:58,156 --> 00:31:00,596 Speaker 2: I expect to hear a lot more about all of 520 00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:08,476 Speaker 2: this at trial. I mean, this program that Santos receives 521 00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:12,756 Speaker 2: by hitting these fundraising benchmarks, right, Yeah, he gets support 522 00:31:12,836 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 2: with ads, he gets support splitting the cost of polls, 523 00:31:16,756 --> 00:31:21,796 Speaker 2: focus groups, what they call coordinated expenditures, which is basically like, 524 00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:24,476 Speaker 2: we're going to spend money with you and for you, right, 525 00:31:24,676 --> 00:31:28,076 Speaker 2: And so if he's trying to get into office, he 526 00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:32,316 Speaker 2: understandably wants this support from the Republican Party. 527 00:31:33,076 --> 00:31:39,516 Speaker 1: Does sirob think that any money actually even existed like 528 00:31:39,716 --> 00:31:45,436 Speaker 1: this five hundred thousand dollars? Was it ever real or 529 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:47,636 Speaker 1: is it just all on paper just like a full 530 00:31:47,716 --> 00:31:49,036 Speaker 1: on like charade. 531 00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:51,596 Speaker 2: So this is something that I've dug into a lot, 532 00:31:51,636 --> 00:31:55,476 Speaker 2: and the story is actually really complicated. What the government 533 00:31:55,516 --> 00:31:58,716 Speaker 2: alleges is that at a certain point in time related 534 00:31:58,756 --> 00:32:03,236 Speaker 2: to that twenty twenty two campaign, George Santos claimed to 535 00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:08,036 Speaker 2: have loaned his own campaign five hundred thousand dollars. What 536 00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:11,236 Speaker 2: the government alleges is that loan never happened, No money 537 00:32:11,316 --> 00:32:15,636 Speaker 2: changed hands in that moment. Now, some reporting has indicated 538 00:32:15,676 --> 00:32:19,636 Speaker 2: that maybe later on some money might have gotten moved 539 00:32:19,636 --> 00:32:23,796 Speaker 2: around to try and potentially make the books look better. 540 00:32:24,476 --> 00:32:29,076 Speaker 2: But what the government is charging in their indictment is 541 00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:33,676 Speaker 2: that this loan did not happen when the campaign said 542 00:32:33,676 --> 00:32:36,876 Speaker 2: it happened, and that it happened for a specific reason, 543 00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:43,036 Speaker 2: and that was to hit these campaign benchmarks, the fundraising benchmarks, 544 00:32:43,316 --> 00:32:45,796 Speaker 2: in order to get this support at a critical moment 545 00:32:45,956 --> 00:32:46,796 Speaker 2: in his campaign. 546 00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:49,716 Speaker 1: I get it, you know, he using his personal charm 547 00:32:49,916 --> 00:32:54,196 Speaker 1: and potentially his lies is like getting popular support. But 548 00:32:55,356 --> 00:32:57,596 Speaker 1: it's one thing to claim you were a successful businessman. 549 00:32:57,716 --> 00:33:00,956 Speaker 1: But then by loaning yourself this money or appearing to 550 00:33:02,276 --> 00:33:04,596 Speaker 1: you're passing the second test, which is he has the 551 00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 1: war chest to make this work, We're going to supplement 552 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:11,076 Speaker 1: that money. Being the Republican Party and really helped push 553 00:33:11,156 --> 00:33:12,236 Speaker 1: him over the line. 554 00:33:12,716 --> 00:33:15,756 Speaker 2: And it actually goes a step further. What the government 555 00:33:15,836 --> 00:33:18,716 Speaker 2: is alleging is that he that Santos and Nancy Marks 556 00:33:18,836 --> 00:33:24,156 Speaker 2: also conspired to put fake donations on the books in 557 00:33:24,196 --> 00:33:26,476 Speaker 2: the names of people who never either never gave or 558 00:33:26,476 --> 00:33:29,436 Speaker 2: didn't given that amount. What it looks like is that 559 00:33:29,476 --> 00:33:34,196 Speaker 2: they were really manipulating these reports to present a version 560 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:40,076 Speaker 2: of Santos's campaign that was much healthier than the reality. 561 00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:45,356 Speaker 2: We've spent this episode talking about this moment in December 562 00:33:45,436 --> 00:33:49,116 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty two, when the New York Times reporting 563 00:33:49,196 --> 00:33:52,436 Speaker 2: kind of blows the story open and then everyone is 564 00:33:52,476 --> 00:33:55,516 Speaker 2: trying to figure out what else they could find out 565 00:33:55,556 --> 00:33:56,276 Speaker 2: in the wake of that. 566 00:33:56,396 --> 00:33:58,556 Speaker 1: Right, it might quibble with your phrasing of that. It 567 00:33:58,556 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like the Times blows the story open. It's 568 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:03,876 Speaker 1: more like they find a crack and that the sad 569 00:34:04,476 --> 00:34:06,316 Speaker 1: may be a fairly big one, but a crack, and 570 00:34:06,356 --> 00:34:10,956 Speaker 1: that the sod that he has created about this super 571 00:34:10,996 --> 00:34:13,756 Speaker 1: successful businessman that he is. And it's like, then all 572 00:34:13,756 --> 00:34:15,756 Speaker 1: these other people are kind of like peering into the 573 00:34:15,756 --> 00:34:17,556 Speaker 1: crack and being like, what else is in there? 574 00:34:18,076 --> 00:34:20,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, you're right, And I will say that this 575 00:34:20,636 --> 00:34:23,756 Speaker 2: is really just the beginning of what will be uncovered 576 00:34:23,756 --> 00:34:27,636 Speaker 2: about George Santos, and ultimately this is a story of 577 00:34:27,716 --> 00:34:33,076 Speaker 2: personal betrayal. Coming up on the next episode of Deep Cover. 578 00:34:33,636 --> 00:34:34,756 Speaker 2: George Santos. 579 00:34:35,276 --> 00:34:37,876 Speaker 12: His mom is pretty central his campaign. He called her 580 00:34:38,076 --> 00:34:41,196 Speaker 12: a Wall Street executive. He said that she escaped the 581 00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:44,876 Speaker 12: South Tower during nine to eleven. He said that she 582 00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:46,836 Speaker 12: was a big political actor. 583 00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:48,596 Speaker 6: There are a few people in this world you should 584 00:34:48,636 --> 00:34:51,316 Speaker 6: not lie to. You're a lawyer, your doctor, and your 585 00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:52,596 Speaker 6: communications director. 586 00:34:55,476 --> 00:34:58,796 Speaker 1: This series is produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid and Joey 587 00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:03,316 Speaker 1: fish Ground. Our editor is Karen Chakerji. Our executive producer 588 00:35:03,436 --> 00:35:08,116 Speaker 1: is Jacob Smith, mastering by Jake Gorski, fact checking by 589 00:35:08,156 --> 00:35:11,676 Speaker 1: Anica Robbins. Our show art was designed by Sean Carney. 590 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:15,836 Speaker 1: Music in this episode is from Luis Gerra and Epidemic 591 00:35:15,956 --> 00:35:20,556 Speaker 1: Sound Special thanks to Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, and Greta Cone. 592 00:35:21,356 --> 00:35:22,276 Speaker 1: I'm Jake calpern