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Speaker 1: A little while back, I called one of my friends

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Speaker 1: up just to say hey, and when they picked up,

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Speaker 1: I could tell they were freaking out, like their voice

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Speaker 1: was shaking, And I asked what was wrong and they said, oh,

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Speaker 1: I thought you called me because you saw And I

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Speaker 1: said saw, what? What are you talking about? And they said, well,

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Speaker 1: it's all over the internet have you seen it? And

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Speaker 1: I still didn't get it. So it turns out this

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Speaker 1: friend of mine had posted a TikTok of themselves talking

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Speaker 1: about something honestly pretty innocuous, but some small group of

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Speaker 1: people decided that they didn't like what was being said,

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Speaker 1: and they were being harassed online. I mean, it was

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Speaker 1: really bad. The post was full of hate comments, there

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Speaker 1: were hate messages in the inbox they'd gotten docked, and

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Speaker 1: someone had found their mother's email address and was sending

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Speaker 1: the family hate mail. I had no idea this was

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Speaker 1: going on, and it really bothered me, not just because

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Speaker 1: people are harassing my friend, but because this was the

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Speaker 1: third friend that this was happening to that month that

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Speaker 1: I knew of.

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Speaker 2: I would say most people do deal with online harassment

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Speaker 2: and don't necessarily talk about it or share or express it.

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Speaker 1: Rommy Galley is a security professional, and he's been working

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Speaker 1: on keeping journalists around the globe safe for over a decade.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like an invisible epidemic cooksorce. Everyone is

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Speaker 2: so accessible today that sometimes things can just blow up

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Speaker 2: out of proportions, and because you're only experiencing it through

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Speaker 2: a screen, people aren't actually fully aware of what it

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Speaker 2: is that you're dealing with, so it's very isolating.

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Speaker 1: Romi actually started his career as a combat medic in

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Speaker 1: the US Marine Corps and he served in Afghanistan. His

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Speaker 1: unit responded to everything from backup requests from other units

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Speaker 1: to dealing with suicide bombings. When I met him in

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, he was my coworker advice on the security team.

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Speaker 1: At first, I just num is the guy who helped

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Speaker 1: organize training sessions for people who were going to go

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Speaker 1: report on dangerous conflict zones, and he'd tell you how

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Speaker 1: to stay safe out there. But as time went on,

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Speaker 1: even those of us who weren't traveling the war zones

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Speaker 1: realized that we also needed Robbie's help.

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Speaker 2: The reality is danger can be present in very different ways,

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Speaker 2: and today I would say, actually it's much more conventionally

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Speaker 2: like the online sphere because online harassment incidents are much

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Speaker 2: more common than let's say, like a field incident. The

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Speaker 2: digital an online world are always there, so and it

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Speaker 2: sounds you could argue that when your digital hygiene isn't

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Speaker 2: up to par, you're sort of unwillingly placing yourself in

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Speaker 2: a vulnerable situation.

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Speaker 1: Four at ten adults in the US have dealt with

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Speaker 1: some kind of online harassment, and that's debt is from

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Speaker 1: almost a decade ago. So what do you do when

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Speaker 1: it happens to you or to someone you care about?

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Speaker 1: And is there a way to prepare for it? From

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Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcast. This is kill Switch, thisnect I'm

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Speaker 1: Dexter Thomas.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Starr, goodbye.

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Speaker 1: How would you define online harassment?

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Speaker 2: I'm I mean, I think we know when we see

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Speaker 2: about generally it's like unwelcome engagement or interactions in the

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Speaker 2: online world that are intended to inflict harm troll in tendidate.

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Speaker 1: For this episode, we're going to use the phrasing that

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Speaker 1: a human rights organization called pin America uses. They define

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Speaker 1: online harassment as quote pervasive or severe targeting of an

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Speaker 1: individual or group online through harmful behavior it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a broad definition, but that's because the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that can happen to you online are pretty varied arranged.

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Speaker 2: Could be something as general as this individual account comes

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Speaker 2: to pay a lot of attention to my post, so

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Speaker 2: it could almost be something that stalker esque. Could be

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Speaker 2: someone who's just like a reply guy, you know, someone

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Speaker 2: who's always got something to say all the way, to

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Speaker 2: threats that are intended to essentially force people to stop

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Speaker 2: what they're doing or go offline. Sometimes it's like bots, farms,

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Speaker 2: people that get paid to harass people.

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Speaker 1: Online harassment is a very old problem. It's probably almost

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Speaker 1: as old as the Internet itself. The first mainstream media

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Speaker 1: use of the word cyberbullying was over two decades ago.

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Speaker 1: But it looks like it's intensifying. That statistic that I

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Speaker 1: mentioned in the beginning of the episode that in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: close to half of US adults had experienced some form

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Speaker 1: of online harassment. When they did the same survey a

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Speaker 1: few years later, the ratios were about the same, but

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Speaker 1: the severity had increased. There were major percentage increases in

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Speaker 1: people reporting things like physical threats, sexual harassment, in stocking,

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Speaker 1: and in long sustained harassment campaigns. But regardless of the

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Speaker 1: scale this stuff can affect you in real.

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Speaker 2: Life, the stress response is very real, right, and like

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Speaker 2: this is I think where people can really underappreciate what

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Speaker 2: the impact of that is. It could be very destructive.

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Speaker 2: There are people that like leave industries, and today there

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Speaker 2: are a lot more instances in cases of like young

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Speaker 2: adults not just like going off of social media platforms

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Speaker 2: because they're harassed online or bullied, but like taking permanent measures.

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Speaker 1: One study of kids age ten to thirteen found that

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Speaker 1: being targeted by cyberbullying was associated with suicidality That includes

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Speaker 1: everything from suicidal thoughts up to actual attempts, with odds

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Speaker 1: more than four times higher. So the feelings that we

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Speaker 1: get when we're being abused online are very real, and

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Speaker 1: online harassment doesn't always just stay online.

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Speaker 2: What's always really concerned me is when online harassment shifts

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Speaker 2: over it to docsing and people's addresses are posted, or

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Speaker 2: you know, someone takes a photo or shows a Google

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Speaker 2: Maps like street photo of their home. It's very very

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Speaker 2: unsettling because you could have someone that's initially like I

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Speaker 2: hate you, you suck, and then it could be like

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Speaker 2: you deserve to be harmed, you know, all the way

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Speaker 2: to Like I've done research on you. I know where

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Speaker 2: you live, I know who your family members are, I

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Speaker 2: know you frequent these spaces, so like I know where

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Speaker 2: you go to school, I know where you go to work,

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Speaker 2: I know where you like to hang out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when it gets really scary. Yeah, but also

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing is getting easier to do. Like,

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Speaker 1: if I wanted to find where somebody lived, say even

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Speaker 1: five years ago, I think it was a little bit

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Speaker 1: more difficult and I need a little bit more technical skill.

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Speaker 1: It's easier to do that now, which is to say

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Speaker 1: that I actually don't need as much motivation as I

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Speaker 1: used to have to have in order to find somebody's

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Speaker 1: information and dox them or send them a bunch of messages.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like a simple backdrop of like the window that

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Speaker 2: looks out of your apartment building could be just an

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Speaker 2: easy way to like get a general guess as to

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Speaker 2: where you live. Right now, You've also got AI tools

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Speaker 2: and such that also make these things much easier today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally right. I mean you could get a picture

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Speaker 1: of somebody and there's a window in the background. You

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Speaker 1: could ask Chad JBT, Hey where is this probably and

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Speaker 1: you know it'll give you a few guesses, and the

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Speaker 1: guesses might be correct.

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Speaker 2: Also, like the reality, I don't want to fear monger

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Speaker 2: about this topic itself. Most instances of online harassment are

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Speaker 2: you know, typically what you're going to see is an

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Speaker 2: uptick for a couple of days of harassment and generally

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Speaker 2: tends to die down. Most cases of online harassment don't

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Speaker 2: shift into physical risk.

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Speaker 1: But some of it does. In one survey, four percent

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Speaker 1: of Americans say that they've been personally docked, and sixteen

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Speaker 1: percent know a friend or family member who's been docked.

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Speaker 1: Docing used to feel like this fringe thing, but now

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Speaker 1: it's just something that some people do when they don't

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Speaker 1: like someone's opinion, and it's becoming more common for these

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Speaker 1: things to be organized. After Charlie Kirk was killed, an

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Speaker 1: anonymous website popped up called Exposed Charlie's Murderers that ask

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Speaker 1: people to submit personal information of anyone that they thought

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Speaker 1: wasn't being respectful enough about Charlie Kirk. The possible implication

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Speaker 1: here is that, hey, you don't have to do anything

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Speaker 1: with that information, but if someone else with a hotter

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Speaker 1: temper happens to see it and they live nearby that address, Well,

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Speaker 1: not your problem. Vice President Jady Vance did a guest

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Speaker 1: spot on Charlie Kirk's podcast, and well, he didn't exactly

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Speaker 1: condemn the idea of using someone's personal information to punish

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Speaker 1: them for an opinion that he didn't like. So when

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Speaker 1: you see someone celebrating Charlie's murder, call them out in hell,

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Speaker 1: call their employer. We don't believe in political violence, but

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Speaker 1: we do believe in civility. Again, doxing is like an

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Speaker 1: informal ad hoc collaboration with strangers that can lead to

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Speaker 1: potential violence. One guy puts the information out there, and

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Speaker 1: then someone else takes that information and does whatever the

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Speaker 1: first guy didn't have the nerve to do. Like swatting.

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Speaker 4: Alarming warning from the FBI this afternoon about the emerging

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Speaker 4: crime of swatting. A swatting incident is when someone targets

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Speaker 4: of the by making a nine to one one call

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Speaker 4: falsely claiming there's an emergency at the victim's home, and

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Speaker 4: the medicine can be dangerous.

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Speaker 5: The FBI and some former federal investigators warn this is

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Speaker 5: a danger to neighborhoods when there are swattings if something

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Speaker 5: goes wrong, when a false call is made and swat

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Speaker 5: teams show up at somebody's door unknown to that person.

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Speaker 5: In fact, one former FBI agent told CBS News, it

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Speaker 5: could turn deadly.

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Speaker 1: Swatting unfortunately, has been common going back well over a decade,

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Speaker 1: so some police departments are better prepared for these fake calls,

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Speaker 1: but not all of them. So doxing harassment. These are

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Speaker 1: not new concepts, but something that is new in this

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Speaker 1: equation is AI. Just like it can make mundane tasks

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Speaker 1: like sorting files or writing emails easier, AI can make

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Speaker 1: harassing people a lot easier than it's ever been.

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Speaker 2: They're like certain ways that AI can be used that

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Speaker 2: are really important to consider, like deep fakes, some things

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Speaker 2: of the type AI tool that take someone's face I

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Speaker 2: like superimpose it onto like an inappropriate picture or something.

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Speaker 2: One trend that I would say can be in line

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Speaker 2: with online harassments, like online extortion specifically used to target

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Speaker 2: children and young adults. Were like scam centers that essentially

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Speaker 2: look someone up, find either are an embarrassing photo of someone,

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Speaker 2: or take a photo of someone superimposed it make it

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Speaker 2: look like something else, and then they reach out and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: I have this really embarrassing thing about you, or I

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Speaker 2: hijacked your account and found these personal photos or something

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Speaker 2: of the sort. I'm gonna post them online unless you

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Speaker 2: give me x amount of money.

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Speaker 1: Deep fake revenge porn has been a problem for years,

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Speaker 1: and for a long time there was no real legal

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Speaker 1: recourse to address it in the US. So some things

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Speaker 1: are changing. Just this past May, a new law now

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Speaker 1: requires platforms to take down non consensual intimate images, whether

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Speaker 1: they're real or AI generated, if the person in them

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Speaker 1: request it. But there's limitations here. That law can't necessarily

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Speaker 1: do much about deep fakes hosted on a service that's

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Speaker 1: outside of the US, or prevent people from, say, sending

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Speaker 1: deep fake nude pictures of you to your friends to

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Speaker 1: harass you faster than the services can take them down.

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Speaker 2: I would say I've lost faith and social media platforms

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Speaker 2: being able to actually protect people. Social media platforms, i

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Speaker 2: would argue, are there to make money off of us,

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Speaker 2: you know, learn about our habits and sell that information

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Speaker 2: to advertisers. Right Like, it's a business at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day.

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Speaker 1: So if you can't really rely on platforms or the law,

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Speaker 1: what can you do if someone is harassing you online,

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Speaker 1: that's after the break. Let's say you wake up, look

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Speaker 1: at your phone, you see all these notifications, and you

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Speaker 1: realize there's a bunch of people harassing you. What do

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 2: So first and foremost, take a breath, right, like take

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Speaker 2: a moment. Am I safe? Am I good? Right now?

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Speaker 2: Because like, online harassment isn't just digital right like immediately

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Speaker 2: once you're being attacked, once someone is holding a magnifying

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Speaker 2: glass to you, it's also like mentally very taxing and

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Speaker 2: can be extremely draining. So it's important to like try

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Speaker 2: and pace yourself as much as we're immediately going to

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Speaker 2: go in the sort of fight flight or freeze responses,

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Speaker 2: be mindful that this has a mental impact on you.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes to like okay, I'm seeing these messages,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's happening, what's going on? The first

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Speaker 2: thing I would personally do is like get a read

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Speaker 2: on the situation. So that's like going online to see

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Speaker 2: the types of messages you got, getting a sense of

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Speaker 2: how sort of large spans is this just on like

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Speaker 2: my install, my snapchat, my TikTok, or is it all

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Speaker 2: the weight in my work? Professional accounts, are loved ones

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Speaker 2: being impacted. You could, on one hand, just be dealing

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Speaker 2: with like a post or something that blows up, goes

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Speaker 2: viral all the way to I'm getting emails that are

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Speaker 2: saying my account is like open on another browser or

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Speaker 2: laptop or phone. So yeah, Initially, what you want to

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Speaker 2: do is like get a sense of how big the

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Speaker 2: footprint of the harassment is, and then through that, obviously

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Speaker 2: you should be able to also get a sense of

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Speaker 2: are these people that are just disagreeing with me? Are

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Speaker 2: they just trying to sort of insult me, make me

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Speaker 2: feel bad? Or is there like anything in there that

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Speaker 2: is truly concerning, right, like we talked about with docsing

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Speaker 2: And then along with that, right, like, I think some

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Speaker 2: things you have to consider. You know, am I going

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Speaker 2: to put my phone on silent? It's like blowing up nonstoff?

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Speaker 2: Do I need to lie low? Do I need to

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Speaker 2: stop posting online if there's a lot more attention on

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Speaker 2: me all of a sudden? Do I need to lock

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Speaker 2: down my personal accounts that might have just been compromised.

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Speaker 2: Are authorities helpful in this situation? Are they going to

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Speaker 2: make things worse?

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Speaker 1: So step one is the step back remember when I

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Speaker 1: said that my friend had told me that it's all

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Speaker 1: over the internet. I had not seen any of this

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Speaker 1: stuff because the two of us run in very different

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Speaker 1: online circles. It was not all over the internet, but

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Speaker 1: for them it was. And this is the same thing

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Speaker 1: with anyone else who's ever experienced this that I've talked

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Speaker 1: to about this. It really does feel like everyone in

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Speaker 1: the world is focused on you, like you can't even

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Speaker 1: go outside. This isn't you being irrational? I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: of course, there is a logical difference in danger between

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Speaker 1: you sitting on the couch and getting a bunch of

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Speaker 1: angry messages and you sitting on the couch and somebody

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Speaker 1: walks in with a knife. But your brain might interpret

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Speaker 1: both as Yo, someone just entered your space and you

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Speaker 1: are now in danger. So those feelings are not fake,

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Speaker 1: they're real and we should respect them. But realistically, if

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Speaker 1: you can take a breath in that moment, it is

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Speaker 1: only a very tiny corner of the Internet that is

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Speaker 1: interested in you, and it is almost certainly temporary. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it feels like you have to be glued to your phone,

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Speaker 1: watching every comment, every message as it comes in. But

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Speaker 1: maybe walking away for a bit might help.

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Speaker 2: Typically you'd want to do that after you make sure

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Speaker 2: like you changed your passwords or like you checked and

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Speaker 2: make sure like you're not docs. It's just people being mean,

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Speaker 2: So like maybe then you take a breather, go spend

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Speaker 2: time with friends. From the sort of mental health like

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Speaker 2: mental hygiene perspective, endless doom scrolling is not necessarily good

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Speaker 2: for us, and especially not the type of constant oh

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Speaker 2: what's being said about me now? That type of thing.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I would also especially recommend when you

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Speaker 2: see these types of things is I think there's always

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Speaker 2: like an instinct to just delete, delete, you know, like

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Speaker 2: get rid of it clear at all. But the issue

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Speaker 2: with that is that you're not then able to sort

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Speaker 2: of monitor or get a sense of the way things

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Speaker 2: are changing. And then also, like from a legal perspective

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Speaker 2: over holding people accountable, it's also important so like not

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Speaker 2: get rid of that information. So don't just like delete

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Speaker 2: everything all of a sudden, because sometimes there's really like

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Speaker 2: important information in there that you might overlook. There are

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Speaker 2: ways that you can also limit the chat or and

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Speaker 2: the notifications and things like that, and like there are

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Speaker 2: ways that you could set filters or restrictions some platforms

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Speaker 2: have privacy settings that allow you to either block, which

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Speaker 2: is like completely out of sight muting meaning like you

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Speaker 2: don't constantly get notifications, or even then like restriction, like

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Speaker 2: some social media platforms have the ability to restrict someone,

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Speaker 2: and you can also set it to where like you

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Speaker 2: can see only if you want to appear in the

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Speaker 2: headspace to see and deal with it.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to the mute function. Muting can be really useful.

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Speaker 1: You can still use Instagram or whatever to talk to

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Speaker 1: your friends without having to see accounts or posts or

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Speaker 1: notifications that are stressing you out. But in case you

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Speaker 1: do need to go back and show those post to someone,

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Speaker 1: like maybe say, worst case scenario, the police, it's still available.

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Speaker 1: On Instagram, you can mute a person so that you

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Speaker 1: don't see their posts or their stories. On Twitter, you

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Speaker 1: can mute accounts or even specific words or hashtags. Facebook,

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Speaker 1: Blue Sky, TikTok. Most platforms have similar options just like this.

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Speaker 2: Beyond the point of like taking a breath, like pacing yourself,

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Speaker 2: like using the resources on people around you and like

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Speaker 2: your family and your loved ones. You know, online harassment,

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Speaker 2: that type of thing can like feel very embarrassing and

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Speaker 2: so because you're embarrassed, you don't talk about it. So

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Speaker 2: then when you don't talk about it, you're like isolating yourself.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, like leaning into your social groups, whether that's

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Speaker 2: like family, loved ones, colleagues.

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Speaker 1: That statistic that I mentioned at the beginning that almost

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Speaker 1: half of all American adults have experienced some kind of

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Speaker 1: online harassment. It sounds really bad, but there's actually I

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Speaker 1: think it's silver lining. It means that you're not alone.

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Speaker 1: But this is where a lot of people get stuck

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Speaker 1: by self isolating. It is extremely important to talk to

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Speaker 1: people about what you're going through. Do not hide this.

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Speaker 1: People in your life might be able to help you out.

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Speaker 1: Maybe your boss can let you work from home if

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Speaker 1: you need to, or maybe your friends can monitor your

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Speaker 1: social media for you while you take a quick break

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Speaker 1: from it.

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Speaker 2: I've had friends that reach out to me because we

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Speaker 2: work in the same industry and they're like, I'm expecting

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Speaker 2: some emails that are really mean and hurtful. Could you

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Speaker 2: just take a look at these really quickly, or like,

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Speaker 2: could you sit with me while I read through some

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Speaker 2: of these rather than like looking at it alone. They

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Speaker 2: could sit next to someone and like kind of laugh

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Speaker 2: about it. You know, and just kind of more so

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Speaker 2: put it in its place. In that sense, I.

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Speaker 1: Think a lot of times there's the desire to jump

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Speaker 1: in and respond to people. What do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say it definitely depends, right, because sometimes

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Speaker 2: especially when you feel like you're overwhelmed by negative comments

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Speaker 2: or people kind of puting a negative light out of context,

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Speaker 2: it is a important to set the record straight, say something.

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Speaker 2: But it very much depends, right. I like to say

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Speaker 2: first and foremost like don't feed the trolls, And a

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Speaker 2: lot of instances someone is looking to like get under

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Speaker 2: your skin. In certain instances, like you're responding is actually

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Speaker 2: encouraging people to harass you a bit more, and online harassment,

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Speaker 2: you're having something harmful or damaging being done to you.

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Speaker 2: So it's also important to take power. But like the

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Speaker 2: point I argue is like taking power in the constructive

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Speaker 2: and helpful way rather than just engaging with a troll

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Speaker 2: or something of the sort.

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Speaker 1: If you're a friend who's watching someone deal with harassment,

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Speaker 1: the same thing applies. It might not be helpful to

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Speaker 1: try to argue in the comments on someone's behalf, and

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Speaker 1: it actually might be dangerous for you to do that.

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Speaker 1: Really you can just ask the person, hey, yo, is

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Speaker 1: there anything I can do for you? And it might

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Speaker 1: be to just go over and hang out or bring

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Speaker 1: them dinner. I mean, seriously, it sounds kind of touchy feely,

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Speaker 1: but if you want to fight back against the keyboard warriors,

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Speaker 1: one of your best weapons is probably a well placed

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Speaker 1: pizza order. So those are some concrete steps you can

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Speaker 1: take if you're dealing with some sudden hate comments or

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Speaker 1: some hate mail, But the best thing you can do

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Speaker 1: to protect yourself happens way before the harassment ever starts.

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Speaker 2: One of the most important things I like the best

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Speaker 2: way to deal with online harassment is by initially preparing

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Speaker 2: for it, so like you can kind of front load

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Speaker 2: a lot of the work, and then ultimately when it

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Speaker 2: does come to harassment, you shut it up. You're kind

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Speaker 2: of ready for it. You've established and set yourself in

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Speaker 2: a way where when it comes to the range of

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Speaker 2: what the actual level of disruption is like, it's going

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Speaker 2: to be minimal.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into how to do that after the break.

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Speaker 1: If somebody has ten minutes to do something that could

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Speaker 1: help lessen the damage. If somebody does decide to bother

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Speaker 1: them in the future, what could they do? What would

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Speaker 1: you say? The first thing to do is take.

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Speaker 2: A look at the privacy settings on your social media

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Speaker 2: profiles and set them in a way where you have

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Speaker 2: a little bit more control of like who follows you,

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Speaker 2: who can tag you, who can comment on your posts,

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Speaker 2: and things of that type. That's a very easy one,

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Speaker 2: you know, look at the settings for messaging. Is my

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Speaker 2: phone number readily shared? If you pull up my profile,

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Speaker 2: can anyone dm me? Or like, do I have to

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Speaker 2: approve it? You know, like that type of thing. And

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Speaker 2: so that way you can kind of cut out a

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Speaker 2: lot of noise or reduce like what someone can actually

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Speaker 2: do to like your social media platforms.

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Speaker 1: Social media apps don't exactly optimize for you protecting your account.

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Speaker 1: I mean why would they. If you did, then it

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Speaker 1: could reduce how many people you interact with, and that

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Speaker 1: could potentially mean less time spent on their app. So

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Speaker 1: they don't always make these settings as easy to find

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Speaker 1: as they probably could. But in general, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of settings that you can use to give you

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Speaker 1: more granular control over who can do what with your information,

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Speaker 1: and they're usually pretty easy to manage once you find them. Seriously,

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Speaker 1: you can do all this stuff on your phone right

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Speaker 1: now as you listen to the rest of this episode,

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Speaker 1: you can probably figure it out on your own, but

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Speaker 1: also put some links in the show notes that'll walk

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Speaker 1: you through securing an account for Instagram, for TikTok and

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Speaker 1: so on.

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Speaker 2: Just by toggling that switch in your privacy settings, you

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Speaker 2: already made yourself like a non target for a scammer.

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Speaker 2: You know, you talk about the ten seconds. Something that

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Speaker 2: takes one second could be the difference between like you

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Speaker 2: being targeted or not, because like a criminal or a

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Speaker 2: harasser is always kind of looking for the easiest target

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Speaker 2: or low hanging fruit.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the best way to do this is just for

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Speaker 1: a second, pretend that you are the aps put yourself

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Speaker 1: in the mind of someone who wants to find you

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Speaker 1: or hurt you. How would you go about it?

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Speaker 2: Imagine going to your social media profile and like look

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Speaker 2: at it from the perspective of someone who might harass

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Speaker 2: you and being like, is there anything that people can

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Speaker 2: see here use here that could be like used against me.

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Speaker 1: Googling yourself, Yeah, I've heard this advice is like google yourself,

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Speaker 1: see what you can find on just public services, and

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Speaker 1: if you can find your own phone number, maybe there's

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Speaker 1: something you can do about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that really can vary because like,

436
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: for example, in the US, privacy laws are really terrible.

437
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: Like you could you know, if you registered to vote,

438
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: there's probably an address for you out there right like

439
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: on a phone number that was like scraped offline, where

440
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: like if you live in Europe or somewhere else, like

441
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 2: it might be more difficult to get that information. And

442
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: so yeah, it's almost like a self doxing exercise looking

443
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 2: at it from the perspective of when people look me up,

444
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: how can they find me? What can they see about me?

445
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: What do you think about the services that will go

446
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: and delete your information from those kind of online repositories

447
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 1: of collections of information.

448
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: I mean, especially if you work in an industry where

449
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 2: you're prone to have like on you, I would highly

450
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: recommend considering some of those services.

451
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of these services. There's delete me, Optoy,

452
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: and Cognitive basically services that will remove your personal data

453
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: for you from these databases that includes stuff like your address,

454
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: your email, your phone number, all that stuff that might

455
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: be floating out there online. These services do cost money,

456
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: but one thing you could try is asking your employer

457
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: if they'll pay for it for you, and if they don't,

458
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: I mean send them the episode and make the case

459
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: that maybe they should.

460
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: A lot of Like what the things that services like

461
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: delete me does are things you can do for free

462
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: to make it more accessible. If you can't dishot one

463
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: hundred dollars, you could request that information take an offline,

464
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: but it's like you have to do it individually. It

465
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: just takes a lot more work.

466
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: And look, I get it. Maybe your boss doesn't want

467
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: to play ball, or maybe money's just tight, or you

468
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: want to go the DIY route. So I'll put a

469
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: link in the show notes to the site that the

470
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: Freedom of the Press Foundation put together. It's called you

471
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: can't make this up. It's called the Big Ass Data

472
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 1: Broker opt Out List, and it will show you how

473
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: to send those takedown requests on your own. You can

474
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: also go through old social media posts and delete anything

475
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: with personal information, like let's say you once posted something

476
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: about moving into your new apartment, or god forbid those

477
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: pictures that people keep posting holding their keys outside in

478
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: front of the house that they just bought, please do

479
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: not do that. That is prime doxing material. And there's

480
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: absolutely no reason to keep that online. And if you

481
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: use Twitter, and let's say you don't want to have

482
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: somebody dig something up you said about Trump back in

483
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, you can use the advantagd search feature and

484
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: look for keywords or a past guest of the show,

485
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: Michael Lee, help make this tool called cyd dot Social

486
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: that will go back through your old tweets and help

487
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: you decide what you want to take down. And in

488
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: the future you can just be a little bit more

489
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: discerning about what you share online. It is okay to

490
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: lie to the computer. So for example, that field in

491
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: your social media account where it tells you to put

492
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: your location live, like, I don't use Twitter anymore, but

493
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: if you look at my account, it says that I'm

494
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: in Tokyo right now, and just between me and you,

495
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: I'm not in Tokyo right now.

496
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: A lot of it is just like creating the habits

497
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: to make it harder or prayer to be a target

498
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: or like less vulnerable. So like being much more mindful

499
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,959
Speaker 2: about posting about loved ones. You know, am I posting

500
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: anything that like directly shows where I live or like

501
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: places I like to hang out or spend time out

502
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: Pretty routinely. If you do want to post them chair

503
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: something online, just remember that like when you post the

504
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 2: chair something, it's ultimately like always.

505
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: There nobody's telling you that you can't post stuff online

506
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: if you really want to. There's always the option of

507
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: making a fensta, a fake Instagram account or TikTok account

508
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: or whatever, basically making another account on any app aside

509
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,239
Speaker 1: from the one that is more public facing, and on

510
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: that one you can be a little bit more personal

511
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: and you can only give that account out to family

512
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: and close friends, and this separation can extend beyond social media.

513
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: You can even make a Google Voice number or any

514
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: other type of like service where you can get a

515
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 2: free digital number that you can sort of proverbally like

516
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: plug and unplug. So that way, like if you do

517
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: get her ass and you need some like quiets on,

518
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: you can do that.

519
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: I do this. I have a normal number for friends

520
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: and family, and I have another number that I give

521
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: out for work use. And there's free services for stuff

522
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: like this, like Google Voice is probably the most common. Also,

523
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: you don't have to have two physical phones. Whichever number

524
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: someone calls, they both go to my same phone. And

525
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: the cool thing about this is if I need to

526
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: deactivate that public number for a while, I can do that,

527
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: or if it really got bad, I just throw it

528
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: out and get a new one. And if you really

529
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: want to get secure, you can use signal and turn

530
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: on the option to hide your phone number. So let's

531
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: talk about passwords and things like that. What do you

532
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: recommend people do.

533
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, go to kill switches.

534
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: Episode on password managers. No, like, seriously though, like a

535
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: password manager is really great, not way like your accounts

536
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: are more locked down.

537
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: If you want to check out our episode about that,

538
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: there's a link in the show notes for that one,

539
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: but here's a short version. First, make sure that your

540
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: email account has a good password that isn't used in

541
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: any other log in, and then also get a password manager,

542
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,239
Speaker 1: and some of those can be free. On top of that,

543
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: whenever you can use two factor authentication or a pass key.

544
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: So all this stuff setting up a new account, doxing yourself,

545
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: deleting all your personal information, and taking back control over

546
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: the information that is already out there. It might feel

547
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: a little bit overwhelming, but you don't have to do

548
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: all this stuff at once. Robbie recommends doing it a

549
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: little bit at a time.

550
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: If you could take like five minutes to do one

551
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: small thing like once a week for a few weeks,

552
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 2: you could be really locked down. In the long term,

553
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: you don't have to spend an hour, you know, like

554
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 2: five hours out of time, just do it little bits,

555
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: and like that makes it a lot more manageable. It's

556
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: way better to like do those things at a leisurely

557
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: pace where you're not like pressured or stress Like before

558
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: a situation comes up, you do it in little bits.

559
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: Let's say it hits the fan, right like you're gonna

560
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: be under way more stress and pressure. You might already

561
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: have information that's been compromised, and now all of a sudden,

562
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: not only are you trying to like get the basics done,

563
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: but then like do way more to like keep an

564
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: eye on what the harassment looks like. So it's like

565
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: way way more work to do. It's better to like

566
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: do some of that stuff very naturally over time at

567
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: your own pace, and then also just like have have

568
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: a plan, like think about when I'm under stress, like

569
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: what is it that I can do to take care

570
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: of myself on an individual level? And like who can

571
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 2: I reach out to if a problem comes up?

572
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: All the things that I mentioned this episode, all those tools,

573
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: all those guides, they're in the show notes, in the description.

574
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: But if you just look at one, I'm just gonna

575
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: tell you this Online Harassment Field Manual dot pin dot org.

576
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: I mta say it one more time. Online Harassment Field

577
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: Manual dot pin dot org. That site has a lot

578
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: more guys that can work for just about everyone in

579
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: just about every situation. You can imagine, whether you're being

580
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: targeted right now or you're worried about it happening to

581
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: you or someone else in the future. And it covers

582
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: all the stuff that we've covered and a lot more.

583
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: Most people don't have to take, like you know, one

584
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: hundred percent def con, I'm gonna lock everything down. You're

585
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: not gonna be able to reach me. Most people don't

586
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: need that. But I think you just have to think about,

587
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: like for yourself, are you more vulnerable because of the

588
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: work you do, who you are?

589
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: If?

590
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: It's very assuring, so many people have dealt with this

591
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: type of thing before, and like most people get through

592
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: it just fine. For anyone that's harassed, like know that

593
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: you're not alone, like a lot of people are really

594
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: to step in and support you. And not judge you,

595
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: so it's like critical that you don't isolate yourself.

596
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: Shout out to ROMI, shout out to the Freedom of

597
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: the Press Foundation, and shout out to everyone who's put

598
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: out materials to help us be safer online. Just enter

599
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: everyday lives and Happy New Year. Thank you so much

600
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: for listening to another episode of kill Switch. You want

601
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: to talk to us, you can email us at kill

602
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: switch at Kaleidoscope dot NYC, or we're also on Instagram

603
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: at kill switch pod. If you dug this one, and

604
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: hopefully you did wherever you're listening to these podcasts, you know,

605
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: leave us a review. It helps other people find the show,

606
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: which in turn helps us keep doing our thing. Kill

607
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: Switch is hosted by Me Dexter Thomas. It's produced by

608
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: Shena Ozaki, dar Luck Potts and Julia Nutter. Our theme

609
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: song is by me and Kyle Murdoch, and Kyle also

610
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: mixed the show from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are oswaalachin

611
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: I Guess How to Get Tour and Kate Osborne from

612
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: iHeart are executive producers of Katrina Norville and Nikki e Tour.

613
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: Catch on the next one

614
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: Goodbye,