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Speaker 3: Hey Daniel, have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Is that the one where you can't get some work

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Speaker 1: because you keep going half the distance and then half

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Speaker 1: that distance and half that distance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. It's kind of like this thought experiment where you say,

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Speaker 3: all right, I'm trying to get home, so I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: get to half of the distance to my home. And

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Speaker 3: then you stop and you say, all right, now I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna get half of the distance to my home. And

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Speaker 3: so you go another half of that and you say,

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Speaker 3: now I'm going to go half of the distance to

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Speaker 3: my home, and you do that half, and so the

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Speaker 3: question is will you ever get home? I mean, it

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Speaker 3: sounds like you would always get there because you're always

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Speaker 3: going half of what's left, but you might never get there.

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Speaker 1: Right. It raises an interesting question, right because if you

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Speaker 1: can cut a mile and a half and then cut

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Speaker 1: that in a half to a quarter mile, and cut

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Speaker 1: that in half to an eighth of a mile, can

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Speaker 1: you keep cutting it to infinitely small distances? Like are

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Speaker 1: those distances even meaningful on a physics point of view?

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Speaker 1: Or is there a shortest possible distance in the universe? Afterwards,

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Speaker 1: Zeno has to actually take that step.

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Speaker 3: Right, So physics could be like Xeno's paradox, more like

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Speaker 3: Xeno's para nut.

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Speaker 4: That's right, Zeno's paradox unraveled. Hi am Jorge and I'm Daniel,

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Speaker 4: and welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the universe.

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Speaker 1: Where we take the universe, cut it in half, and

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Speaker 1: then cut it in half again, and cut it in

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Speaker 1: half again and again until it's small enough for everybody

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Speaker 1: to understand and happily digest. This is Daniel Jorges podcast paradox.

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Speaker 3: And unlike that paradox, this will actually end at some

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Speaker 3: point in about thirty to thirty five minutes.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Not If you listen to half the podcast

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Speaker 1: and then half it was left, and then half of

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Speaker 1: what's left right and infinitely slicing the podcast, you can

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Speaker 1: enjoy it forever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at some point you'll be like, uh, that's.

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Speaker 1: Right, you'd be listening to one unit of laughter. But

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Speaker 1: that's sort of the question we want to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: Can you slice up space into smaller and smaller pieces,

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Speaker 1: Can you divide it into shorter and shorter distances?

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Speaker 3: Or is space pixelated like a video game?

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Speaker 1: That's right, or your latest iPhone. You look around you

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Speaker 1: and it seems like the universe is continuous and smooth, right,

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Speaker 1: But it might be that the universe is actually pixelated.

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Speaker 1: That you can be here or the adjacent pixel, but

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Speaker 1: you can't be in between. That there's the shortest possible

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Speaker 1: distance to the universe.

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Speaker 3: So not the stuff is pixelated, but the actual like

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Speaker 3: the universe itself, the space in it is like a

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Speaker 3: video game. It's pixelated. It's not continuous and infinite resolution.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, And it's a perfect analogy to the stuff. Right.

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Speaker 1: In particle physics, we love taking things apart. We say

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Speaker 1: your body is made of molecules, and those molecules are

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Speaker 1: made of atoms, and those atoms are made of smaller particles,

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Speaker 1: and those little particles get down to quarks and leptons.

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Speaker 1: We're looking for the tiniest particle, the base particle out

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Speaker 1: of which everything is built. But in a completely parallel track,

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Speaker 1: we can ask the same questions about space. Is a

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Speaker 1: mile built out of half miles, is built out of

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Speaker 1: quarter miles, which eventually is built out of the smallest unit?

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Speaker 1: Or can you infinitely divide it?

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Speaker 3: So this is a mind blowing question, and so we

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Speaker 3: were curious what you thought. The answer was, do you

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Speaker 3: think the universe is pixelated?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So I went around. I asked a random selection

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Speaker 1: of U see Irvine undergraduates who were not put off

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Speaker 1: by a weird physics professor holding a mic in their face,

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Speaker 1: and ask them this question.

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Speaker 3: Do you think the universe is pixelated?

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Speaker 1: Here's what they had to say.

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Speaker 5: It's quantized basically, so atoms cannot be I mean, of

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Speaker 5: course they're made by some atomic articles. But I think

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Speaker 5: at the after that like, it can't be continuous. I

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Speaker 5: think it's particulate. I think it's like I can ask

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Speaker 5: him some of what you reach smaller and smaller and

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Speaker 5: smaller and smaller and smaller.

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Speaker 6: But you never get to like a finite like this

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Speaker 6: is the smallest thing.

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Speaker 3: I think it would probably get smaller and smaller forever.

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Speaker 1: I ready don't know about this. This is a tough onextround,

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Speaker 1: here's a tough question. Yeah right, what's your best guess?

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Speaker 1: What do you think you got to say?

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Speaker 5: Really? You know, this one is really beyond my understanding

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Speaker 5: of this whole word right now?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, So people were kind of skeptical about this.

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Speaker 1: It was a whole spectrum of answers. I mean, some

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Speaker 1: people are like, no, you can chop down infinitely far.

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Speaker 1: Other people are like, no, quantum mechanic says everything is

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Speaker 1: quantized and therefore there must be pixels. And other people

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Speaker 1: are like what, wow, I have no idea what are

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Speaker 1: you talking about? And I totally regret agreeing to answer

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Speaker 1: your question.

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Speaker 3: It's like, I've never heard these two words at the

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Speaker 3: same time, universe and pixels.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, And it is a weird question,

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Speaker 1: you know. But the pixels is a perfect analogy because, like,

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Speaker 1: if you have a modern iPhone and you look at

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Speaker 1: the screen, it seems like the pictures are fluid, they're smooth, right,

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Speaker 1: You can't see the pixels because they have this retina display.

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Speaker 1: It gives the illusion that is completely smooth.

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Speaker 3: But it's kind of interesting because if you look at

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Speaker 3: an old phone, like just from five to ten years ago,

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Speaker 3: it looks horribly pixelated, that's right. It looks crunchy and chunky,

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Speaker 3: and you think, how could I ever have seen this

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Speaker 3: and thought that this was anything of quality?

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Speaker 1: That's right. And you know, even old fashioned photographs, the

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Speaker 1: ones that are analog not digital, ones that use chemistry,

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Speaker 1: those in effect have pixels as well, they're just so

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Speaker 1: small that you can't see them because you know, the

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Speaker 1: development process is a chemical process, and so it's based

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Speaker 1: on you know, molecules and drops of fluid in whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's just the pixels are so small. So if the

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Speaker 1: pixels are small enough that you can't see them, it

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Speaker 1: gives you the illusion that it's perfectly continuous and that

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Speaker 1: you could you know, zoom in forever and see more

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Speaker 1: and more details, you know, like on that on those

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Speaker 1: cop shows where they're like enhance the image and they

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Speaker 1: can just like zoom in forever and read the time

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Speaker 1: on somebody's watch, or something.

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Speaker 3: Right right, or get like a face match.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but in a real picture, there's a limit to

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Speaker 1: the information that's been captured. And if you look from

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Speaker 1: far away, it looks like you could zoom in forever,

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Speaker 1: but at some point, as you start zooming in, you

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Speaker 1: notice the pixels. And so that's the question we're wondering

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Speaker 1: about today, Like, sure, space seems continuous around us, but

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Speaker 1: is it possible that if we zoomed in far enough,

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Speaker 1: the pixels could appear at some point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's kind of related to the question of

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Speaker 3: space itself. Like we know stuff is made the little bits,

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Speaker 3: but is space itself also pixelated like an iPhone screen

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Speaker 3: or an old photograph.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this question is newly fascinating because we're only

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Speaker 1: recently learning what space is, right, Like, the question of

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Speaker 1: is space pixelated is a reasonable question in parallel to

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Speaker 1: is matter quantized and made out of smallest particles, because

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Speaker 1: we've recently realized that space really is a thing. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's not just like emptiness. Those of you are out

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Speaker 1: there saying this is silly. Space is nothing, and so

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Speaker 1: of course you could be anywhere in it and you

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Speaker 1: can divide it infinitely. We've recently realized this space is

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Speaker 1: not nothing.

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Speaker 3: Before we thought it was nothing, just the absence of anything,

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Speaker 3: But actually it's not right. It's almost like a medium,

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Speaker 3: or like what the ocean is to fish.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's a thing. It has dynamical properties. Right.

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Speaker 1: We know that it's not nothing because you can do

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Speaker 1: things that nothing can't do.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: For example, space can expand that's what dark energy is.

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Speaker 1: And for those of you whose minds were just blown

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Speaker 1: about the meaning of the phrase, space can expand, go

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Speaker 1: off and listen to our dark energy episode where we

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Speaker 1: talk all about that. And space can wiggle, right like

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Speaker 1: things in space can expand and contract with these wiggles

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Speaker 1: as gravitational waves pass through them. And you know, those

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Speaker 1: of you interested in that, go off and listen to

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Speaker 1: our gravitational waves episode. And we also know that space

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Speaker 1: can bend, right, that's what general relativity tells us. It

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Speaker 1: tells us that gravity is not a force, but instead

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Speaker 1: it's a bending of space. So space definitely is a thing.

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Speaker 1: It has properties, and we've only just recently discovered that

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Speaker 1: it's a thing and begun to investigate it. And so

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Speaker 1: it's a very reasonable question to ask, is space pixelated

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Speaker 1: like we think matter might be.

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Speaker 3: Like what is it made out of? What's it like? Really?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not nothing, So if it's something.

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Speaker 1: It's like space is some famous celebrity, you know, right,

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Speaker 1: what's space like, you know, on the weekend. Is it egotistical?

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Speaker 1: It seems egotistical, you know, seems so into itself.

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Speaker 3: What space's favorite color?

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Speaker 1: Black?

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Speaker 3: Black?

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Speaker 1: The code that one. I think we know that's a

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Speaker 1: subtle question in science. No, I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: think about this question, like what is the smallest unit

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Speaker 1: of space? Right? What is space built out of? And

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Speaker 1: I think the analogy, you know, understanding what matter is

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Speaker 1: built out of works there, Like is space built out

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Speaker 1: of these little bits, right, these pixels? And then the

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Speaker 1: next question if you discover space is built out of pixels,

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Speaker 1: is what are those pixels made out of? Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: could be that those pixels are made out of something

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Speaker 1: smaller and deeper that's nothing like space. So that space

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Speaker 1: itself is an emergent phenomenon, not a fundamental thing in

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Speaker 1: our universe. That's something that arises, you know, like wetness

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Speaker 1: or economics, you know, so not something that's built in

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Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the universe, but something that

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Speaker 1: comes out of how things interact.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's take this approach. So let's assume that space

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Speaker 3: is pixelated. Okay, what does a space pixel mean or

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Speaker 3: feel like or look like? Or what would it do

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Speaker 3: to things?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would mean is that you can't be just

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Speaker 1: anywhere you want in space, you know, just like Xeno

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Speaker 1: the beginning of this episode. It would mean that at

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Speaker 1: some point, if you're small enough or you can zoom

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Speaker 1: down enough, it would mean that you have to make

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Speaker 1: a choice. Are you at location N or location N

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Speaker 1: plus one? Right, it would mean that space is discrete

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Speaker 1: the way integers are, instead of being continuous the way

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Speaker 1: real numbers are. Right, there's an infinite number of numbers.

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Speaker 1: For example, between one and two, there's one, one point five,

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Speaker 1: one point two, seven eighty four, and you can always

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Speaker 1: squeeze more numbers in there. There's an infinite amount of

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Speaker 1: numbers between one and two if you're talking about real numbers,

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Speaker 1: a continuous line of numbers. But for integers, like there's

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Speaker 1: just one and there's too, there's no more integers in between.

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Speaker 1: Space could be like that, where you're like, I'm at

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Speaker 1: this spot, and if I want to take a step,

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Speaker 1: there's the shortest distance I can step, and so you

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Speaker 1: have to go to two.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like if you were on your iPhone

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Speaker 3: you were animating one pixel dot black dot on a

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Speaker 3: white background. This dot can't just be anywhere on the screen.

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Speaker 3: It has to move from one box to the next box.

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Speaker 1: That's right. It can't like cross over the boundary. You

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Speaker 1: can't be halfway between one pixel and another, because then

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Speaker 1: each pixel would have to be half white and half black,

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Speaker 1: which if they can't be right, a pixel is the

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Speaker 1: basic unit. It's either on or it's off.

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Speaker 3: So like, if you look at the iPhone from a distance,

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Speaker 3: this dot would look like it's moving smoothly across the screen,

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Speaker 3: but really it's taking little jumps between squares, right, Like

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Speaker 3: it's in the square ones at this moment, and then

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Speaker 3: it's suddenly in the next square, and then suddenly it's

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Speaker 3: in the next square. You're saying that maybe, like I'm

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Speaker 3: not really moving continuously through space, Maybe I'm just kind

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Speaker 3: of like jumping from one box to the next exactly.

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Speaker 1: And the illusion of smoothness, the way you feel that

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Speaker 1: you are moving smoothly, is your brain stitching that together.

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Speaker 1: And it's easy to do because the pixels, if they exist,

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Speaker 1: would be super duper tiny, But they only have to

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Speaker 1: be smaller than you can notice. You know, for example,

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Speaker 1: if you slow down a movie, it's nothing but a

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Speaker 1: bunch of still images right right, And if you watch

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Speaker 1: them fast enough, the key is faster than your eye

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Speaker 1: can register the differences. Then it appears to be an

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Speaker 1: infinitely smooth sequence. It seems like you're watching something in

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Speaker 1: real life. Slow it down, of course you can see, Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just a bunch of still images. In the same way,

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Speaker 1: space might be discrete. We just haven't noticed. But that

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Speaker 1: if you get small enough, you realize that these nodes.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like you can't get off halfway between

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Speaker 1: subway stations, right, It might be that space is like that,

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Speaker 1: that every location in space is like a subway stop.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to get off the train halfway between

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Speaker 1: stasions and get stuck in the tunnel. You can't, right,

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Speaker 1: the universe forbids it.

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Speaker 3: Right. But if you're the pixel, like in a screen,

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Speaker 3: the pixel isn't really moving, You just turn it off

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Speaker 3: in one square and you turn it on the next square,

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Speaker 3: so it sort of disappears and it appears.

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Speaker 1: Yes, are you going to ask if that's really like teleportation?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Right, like that, as I'm moving through space, I'm

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Speaker 3: actually like disappearing here and appearing in the next spot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it does you know. I guess it

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Speaker 1: means that you zap from one spot to the other

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Speaker 1: without going in between them, right, and so that really

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Speaker 1: is a kind of teleportation. I hadn't thought of that before.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of awesome in the same way like if

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Speaker 1: time is quantized, then you know, you're sort of slicing

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Speaker 1: your way through time in the same way. That's fascinating. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we're if space is pixelated, that we're all teleporting

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Speaker 1: right now all the time.

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Speaker 3: Only you mood, only mood.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, we just invented teleportation right here live

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. Amazing. Get the legal team on the

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Speaker 1: patent please, will you?

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Speaker 3: And there goes your physics professorship right out of the door.

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Speaker 3: Right there.

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Speaker 1: That's right, boom, I'm officially a crackpot.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's take a quick break before we go on.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so that's what it means for the universe to

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Speaker 3: be pixelated, that we're all just kind of trapped in

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Speaker 3: an iPhone screen. Then we can't really move anywhere. We

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Speaker 3: have to move within these boxes.

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Speaker 1: That's right. But if it is, it's a really fancy,

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Speaker 1: super modern iPhone because the pixels would be super duper tiny, right,

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Speaker 1: and has an awesome graphics processor.

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Speaker 3: What would you call it the iPhone you from universe?

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Speaker 3: It'd be like a quantum display.

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Speaker 1: That's right, iPhone quse, Tim Cook, give us a call,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Somebody put a trademark on that.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 1: We need like a constant legal team standing by just

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Speaker 1: to you know, get down all the great ideas we

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Speaker 1: come up with.

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Speaker 3: One fly, So, how could we tell if we are

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Speaker 3: in a pixelated universe or not?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's hard because to see that we are

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Speaker 1: in a pixelated universe, and we'd have to see the pixels, right,

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Speaker 1: So we have to zoom in somehow far enough to

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Speaker 1: be able to see them. And of course, so far

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Speaker 1: we haven't. So far, everything seems continuous. We don't notice

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Speaker 1: discontinuities in the way things move, and we also have

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Speaker 1: no idea how big these pixels are. Right, so far,

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Speaker 1: we have explored space and matter using high energy particle colliders,

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Speaker 1: and that's let us probe down to about ten to

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Speaker 1: the minus twenty meters. That's zero point than twenty zeros

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Speaker 1: and a one me. That's a tiny little distance. I

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Speaker 1: don't even know what the prefix is for that. It's

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Speaker 1: some super tiny distance. We've studied space down about that

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Speaker 1: distance using particle colliders where we smash these tiny particles

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Speaker 1: together and use the protons so like look inside the

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Speaker 1: other protons, and that lets us study space. So we

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Speaker 1: know that if there are space, they have to be

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Speaker 1: smaller than that.

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Speaker 3: Right, you mean at the large hydron collider, you can

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Speaker 3: polke things at that distance, meaning you can tell if

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Speaker 3: things mashed together within that small of a distance apart.

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Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. Essentially, our current theory assumes that space is continuous,

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Speaker 1: and our current theory doesn't break down down to ten

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Speaker 1: of the minus twenty and so we would notice some deviation.

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Speaker 1: Something would be different, The calculations would be wrong if

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Speaker 1: space became pixelated and at a level that we didn't expect,

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Speaker 1: and so so far we're pretty sure space seems continuous

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Speaker 1: down to ten to the minus twenty. So the pixels,

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Speaker 1: if they exist, have to be really.

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Speaker 3: Small, right. But I wonder, you know, if there is

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Speaker 3: a philosophical limit there, you know, in the sense that like,

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Speaker 3: do you think Super Mario, if he's in the video

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Speaker 3: game and he's a pixelated character, could he tell that

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Speaker 3: the world was pixelated, you know, because he's pixelated and

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Speaker 3: he thinks in pixelated thoughts?

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Speaker 1: Could he notice he thinks in pixelated thoughts?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what I mean, Like.

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Speaker 1: I think, in terms of thought units, here's a three

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Speaker 1: pixel unit thought. I think that's an interesting question if

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Speaker 1: the pixels Sabe lives in a universe where the pixels

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Speaker 1: were fairly large in.

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Speaker 3: Comparison to our bodies Minecraft character.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's hard to imagine that realistically,

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Speaker 1: because it would mean there's a pretty strong limit on

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Speaker 1: how complex our bodies could be. I mean, if your

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Speaker 1: body was made out of pixels there were like six

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Speaker 1: centimeters across, then you just couldn't be very complicated if

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Speaker 1: you were meter tall. In order to have enough complication

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Speaker 1: to have an interesting mind, you know, you need a huge,

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Speaker 1: complicated brain, So the brain would have to be enormous

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Speaker 1: compared to the size of the pixels. So I think

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Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to have complex enough life to ask

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Speaker 1: that question and still be small compared to the size

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Speaker 1: of the pixels. So if super Mario is an idiot,

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Speaker 1: then yeah, he'd probably be pretty close to the size

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Speaker 1: of the pixels. But then he's not going to be

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Speaker 1: asking the question why am I pixeling?

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Speaker 3: Well, his intelligence would be pixelated, so you probably have

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Speaker 3: zero units. And then if he takes a mushroom, is

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Speaker 3: that going to grow too?

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Speaker 1: That's just you know, I've always wondered about those mushrooms,

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Speaker 1: you know, does that change the way he thinks? Like

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Speaker 1: what's going on with those? Where do I get some?

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Speaker 3: He doesn't actually get bigger, it's just his pixels in

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Speaker 3: his mind, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Then The other question is, you know, would he even

436
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 1: think to ask the question if pixels were obvious in

437
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 1: the universe, you wouldn't ask why is the universe pixelated?

438
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: It would just be one of the basic assumptions that

439
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 1: you accept day to day, you know, And that's one

440
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: of the things I find fascinating about physics is that

441
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: we keep unraveling basic assumptions about the universe that we

442
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: didn't even really think to question, you know, questions like

443
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 1: is time the same for everybody? Right? Of course? We

444
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 1: used to think, of course, it was like time is time,

445
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 1: and a clock here and a clock there are the same,

446
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 1: And now we know it's not. Time is relative and

447
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: depends on your speed and all sorts of weird stuff.

448
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: So physics is helping us peel back the universe and

449
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: figure out where our perceptions have led to biases in

450
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 1: the way we view the universe. And so that's why

451
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: this space pixelization is just another one on the list.

452
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: It might be eventually physics shows us that space is

453
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 1: different than the way we always imagined, you know, that's

454
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 1: made up of these little units.

455
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 3: So I think what you're saying is that as far

456
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,239
Speaker 3: as we know, we look at the world around us

457
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 3: and the complexity of it, it's such that we're pretty

458
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 3: sure that it's not pixelated up to a certain scale,

459
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 3: which is ten to the minus twenty.

460
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we certainly do. And if we were close to

461
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: the pixel scale, it would limit how much complexity we

462
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: could have in our universe. Right, if if the pixels

463
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: were a centimeter across, then our one meter scale life

464
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 1: couldn't be very complex at all, right, right, Like what

465
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: kind of interesting thing could you build out of actual

466
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: real size legos? Right, it can't make a machine that's

467
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 1: very complicated, right, You know.

468
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 3: You want to see these rich effects that you see

469
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 3: when you puke the world around you.

470
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay.

471
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 3: So what makes scientists even think that the universe could

472
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 3: be pixelated?

473
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 1: I think they were just hanging out in the sevenies

474
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 1: and smoking too much weed and they were like, it

475
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: was man.

476
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 3: Playing media games.

477
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: No, it's not like it. Some people might think, Oh,

478
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: it comes from the idea that the universe is a simulation,

479
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: and if it's a simulation, then of course it's pixelated,

480
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: because computers in the outside the universe are pixelated. No,

481
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: it comes from a deeper place. It comes from noticing

482
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 1: that quantum mechanics seems to work really well.

483
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 5: Right.

484
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics has described everything we know except for gravity,

485
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 1: and it seems to be a fundamental description of the

486
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: universe that everything is quantized. You know, packets of light,

487
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 1: for example, can't have an arbitrary amount of energy. They

488
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: can only have certain units of energy. Matter itself is

489
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 1: made out of particles, which are little quantized bits of stuff. Right,

490
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: So it seems like, for a reason we don't understand,

491
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: the universe is quantized, and quantized of course just means

492
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: little units of stuff, and so it's very natural to

493
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 1: imagine that space also might be quantized, that space also,

494
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: instead of being infinitely divisible, might also be made out

495
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: of pieces. Because the universe seems to like quantum mechanics.

496
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: So you're saying that, like the stuff that we see

497
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 3: around us does have smallest bits, like there is a

498
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 3: lego piece of matter. Yeah, you can't split an electron really,

499
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 3: like you can't have half an electron or a quarter

500
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 3: of electron. So maybe that says something about the universe

501
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 3: as a whole, like maybe everything is just kind of blocking.

502
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: That's right, it would make sense, it would it would

503
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: feel natural, and it would feel coherent with what we

504
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: think about modern physics if space was also quantized. And

505
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: then there's you know, there's some technical reasons, like there

506
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: are some theories of physics which just don't work if

507
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: you get small enough. What do you mean, you know,

508
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: some theories of quantum mechanics and the way it describes

509
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: interactions below a certain distance that you just start to

510
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: get infinities. Like you you know, how does the theory

511
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: of physics work? Well, it's a it's something that predicts

512
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: an experiment, right, say, I think this is going to happen.

513
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: What is my theory of electromagnetism tell me? And so

514
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: you can do some calculation. It tells you, oh, the

515
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: electron is going to turn left and go at this angle.

516
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 1: But sometimes the theories break and they give you numbers

517
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: that make no sense, like oh, the electron is going

518
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: to turn and it's going to go to infinite angle

519
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: or have infinite energy. So there's some theories and it's

520
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: a bit too technical to get into that break down

521
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: at really really small scales. Wow, and they just start

522
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: to give infinities. And so some of those problems are

523
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: solved if you have a smallest distance, because then you

524
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: don't have to go to those smallest scales right right,

525
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: And this especially is a problem when people try to

526
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: describe gravity using quantum mechanics. It comes up with all

527
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: sorts of crazy problems and one solution to that is

528
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: to say, well, what if this is the shortest distance,

529
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: then we don't have to think about doing these calculations

530
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: down to infinitely small distances.

531
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 3: Right, So nothing can happen at such a small scale.

532
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 3: So in theory, the theory doesn't break down. It's just

533
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: nothing can happen at that scale, So why even worry

534
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 3: about it.

535
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a clue. It's saying, oh, this theory

536
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: doesn't work. It can't describe universe where there's infinitely small distances.

537
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: Then the idea is, well, maybe the theory is wrong,

538
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: or maybe the universe doesn't have infinitely small distances, in

539
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: which case the theory works.

540
00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 5: Right.

541
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: There's lots of fun ways to make theory work, and

542
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: one of them is just to imagine that the places

543
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: where it breaks are the places where it's not physical,

544
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: where it's not actually describing what's happening.

545
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: Well, this is a perfect point to take a break.

546
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

547
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

548
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

549
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are us. Dairy

550
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,399
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551
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,000
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552
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

553
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,680
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554
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,800
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555
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556
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557
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,960
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558
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559
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560
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

561
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562
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563
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564
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565
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566
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567
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568
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569
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570
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Speaker 3: Well, this is interesting, so there's apparently a number that

589
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: physicists think might be the pixel of the universe. Like

590
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 3: there's like a concrete number they think might tell you

591
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: what the pixelation the resolution of the universe.

592
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: Is, right a little bit, I mean, I think that's

593
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: overstating it. There is a number which we think might

594
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: have something to do with the pixelization of the universe.

595
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: So the argument is pretty weak. All right, I'll walk

596
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: you through it, but you'll be unimpressed at how starting

597
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: the argument is. All right, just trying to manage your

598
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: expectations a little.

599
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 3: Bit, right, all right, I'll make them pixel size.

600
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: There you go, Yeah, I go for one unit of expectation.

601
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: Here's the argument. The argument is, we've noticed there are

602
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: some fundamental constants in the universe, like the speed of light,

603
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: and that has units meters per second, right, And that's

604
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: just a number and we measure it, and it's a

605
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: parameter of the universe. We don't know why it's this

606
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: and why it's that, and we of course we have

607
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: a whole podcast episode about that, but it is a number.

608
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: And there are other units we've noticed, like the strength

609
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: of gravity. Right, it's called big G. The gravitational constant

610
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: appears in Newton's formula, and you know in the Plank constant,

611
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,239
Speaker 1: the one that appears in quantum mechanics that tells you

612
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: how well you can know two numbers at the same time.

613
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: So there's all these basic units that we've measured and

614
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 1: we've discovered, and we think they reveal something about the universe.

615
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: We think they tell us something about why the universe

616
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: is this way not that way, And we don't know

617
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: where they come from.

618
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: Of like the pie or you know, just the number

619
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: that exists in the universe.

620
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well pi is and especially fascinating one because it's

621
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: unit lists, right, so it's pure in some sense. But

622
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: these numbers have units, you know, they're like jewels per

623
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: second or meters per second or whatever. Okay, and so

624
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: we think they tell us something about why the universe

625
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: is this size or has this or you can go

626
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: this fast, or you know.

627
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: It's some sort of like ratio between two things.

628
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: Yes exactly. They fix the relationship between things, like the

629
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: speed of light fixes the relationship between distance and time. Right,

630
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: it's meters per second, So.

631
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: I see that the speed of light is like a

632
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,479
Speaker 3: universal physics number, Yes exactly. And so there's other numbers

633
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 3: like these in physics theories.

634
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a few that we've discovered along the way,

635
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: and we think they're deep and fundamental, and you know,

636
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: some future theory of physics might reveal why they are

637
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: the way they are. But currently they're just numbers, and

638
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: we imagine that they could have been set to something else,

639
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: and that's a whole other discussion. Here's the thing you

640
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: can do, though, is that you can manipulate these numbers.

641
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: You can multiply them by each other until you get

642
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: a number that has units of distance. So you multiply

643
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: the plank's constant and you have the gravitational constant the

644
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: speed of light squared. You can cancel out all the

645
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: units until you get a number that has just units

646
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: of distance. Okay, so what is that number. Well, they

647
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: call it the plank length because it has planks constant

648
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: in it, and it's a number. And the number is

649
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: ten to the minus thirty five meters. That's zero point

650
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: thirty five zeros and then a one. So that's a tiny,

651
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: tiny number. And because it comes from these simple basic units,

652
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: we imagine it has special meaning. We imagine that it's

653
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: a clue that it tells us something about the way

654
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: the universe works. And because it's just units of distance,

655
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: we like to think that it tells us something about

656
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: the fundamental nature of distance in the universe, now does it.

657
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows. It's just a bunch of numbers.

658
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: We multiply it together, you know, and we thought those

659
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: numbers were important, but maybe they're not.

660
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 3: It's kind of like if you take the smallest things

661
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: and the fastest things, you know, you know, like the

662
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: smallest bit of matter and the going up the fastest

663
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 3: possible speed, and you know what would be the smallest

664
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: distance that it could go. That's kind of what it

665
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 3: is to mix all of these numbers together.

666
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's not that much smarter an argument than that.

667
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: Great I feelt like that was an insult.

668
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: I don't say that to insult physics, right, Like, it's

669
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: not a great argument. But it's the first thing you do, right.

670
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: It's unit analysis saying, well, if we have no clue,

671
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: what can we do, Well, let's combine these numbers and

672
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: maybe that'll give us a clue. So it's not no

673
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: physicist or out there saying this is definitely the fundamental

674
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: unit of distance. It just says if there is one,

675
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: it might be around this number. I mean, to within

676
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: a factor of one hundred or a thousand would be

677
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: pretty still a pretty good clue, right.

678
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 3: Ten to the negative thirty five, which sounds really small.

679
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: It is really small.

680
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 3: It is really small, but it's not small compared to infinity,

681
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? Like the number Pi.

682
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: You can take decimals out to thirty five thirty five

683
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: hundred thirty five million decimals. Yeah, but you're saying maybe

684
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: the universe only goes up to thirty five that's.

685
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: Most Yeah, that's right. It's a lot bigger than you know,

686
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: ten to the minus one hundred, or ten to the

687
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: minus one thousand, or ten of the minus ten thousand, Right,

688
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: these are much much smaller numbers. The thing is, it's

689
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: also much smaller than the thing we've seen. Remember we

690
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: studied space down to about ten to the minus twenty,

691
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: So that means that we are a factor ten to

692
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: the fifteen away from seeing these pixels, if in fact

693
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: they exist, and if they are at that scale.

694
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 3: Wow.

695
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean for a sense of scale, like the

696
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: solar system is ten to the fifteen meters across I believe,

697
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: so you could only see things, you know, down to

698
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: ten of the fifteen meters, you'd be missing a lot

699
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: of interesting detail, Like you'd miss Earth and life and

700
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: planets and stuff and us.

701
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: What a tragedy, I know.

702
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: How could you study the universe without seeing the most

703
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: important and best looking to dudes in it? Right?

704
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: Like if you were a giant decize of a galaxy

705
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 3: and you had an iPhone the size of you know,

706
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 3: the Milky Way, and the biggest pixel in it was

707
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: the size of a solar system, there would be a

708
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 3: lot you'd be missing.

709
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: Exactly So between where we've seen at ten of the

710
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: minus twenty meters and how far things might go at

711
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: ten of the minus thirty five meters, there could be

712
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: a huge amount of complexity and richness down there that

713
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: we're totally ignorant of.

714
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 3: Little tiny pixel people.

715
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: That's right.

716
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: I think asking these same questions could be a little

717
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 3: pixelated alien going, Mamario, what's good?

718
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: Hold on, I don't think i've ever heard your talent accent.

719
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 3: That's pretty good, and we just lost all of our

720
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: Italian listeners.

721
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: That's yeah, Italian listeners, please write in and comment at

722
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: Jorges accent at Danelinhorge dot com.

723
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: Jorgel fans Whole Country dot Com. Okay, well, let's get

724
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: some perspective here. What what do you think would mean

725
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 3: for us and our understanding of ourselves, our universe if

726
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: we found out that the universe is pixelated?

727
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: It would be a really deep inside just into the

728
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: very nature of the universe. You know, to know that

729
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: number tells you something about the scale at which the

730
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: universe was built. Right, Everything in the universe happens from

731
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: its basic elements. So we have fascinating structure, you know,

732
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: galaxies and superclusters and all that stuff, but all that

733
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: arises from the interactions of smaller pieces, you know, particles

734
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: and electrons. Everything is determined by what happens at the

735
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: smallest scale, right, So everything in the universe comes out

736
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: of these basic elements. So to learn how big the

737
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: smallest unit is tells you how the universe was constructed.

738
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: And in the end, what is science and physics about

739
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: other than this goal of trying to deprogram the universe

740
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: or look at the source code or figure out how

741
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: this thing is organized? And so that would be pretty

742
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: pretty awesome, but you know, it actually just be a

743
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 1: first step.

744
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, no's you just made me realize it would really

745
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: kind of blow your mind to just have this sense

746
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: that the universe has a structure, right, that it somehow

747
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: feels built, you know, like there's a scaffolding to the universe.

748
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a graph paper, right, yeah, and then you

749
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: have to ask questions.

750
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 3: Like who made that graph paper.

751
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: And why that size? Right? Why is it ten of

752
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: the minus thirty five meters and not ten of the

753
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: minzed five hundred meters or ten of the mized thirty meters? Right?

754
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: What does that mean? There's like a clue there about

755
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: the very structure of the universe. Is it a random

756
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: number and it generated arbitrarily when all the multiverses were created?

757
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: Or does it give you a clue somehow about something

758
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: deep about the universe. On the other hand, you know,

759
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: we talked about like galaxies just being emergent phenomena. Right,

760
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: They're a really cool thing, but they're just formed out

761
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: of smaller bits and their complex behavior arises into this

762
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: thing called a galaxy. A lot of people think these

763
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 1: days that space itself could be an emergent phenomenon. Okay,

764
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: that these pixels of space could be built out of

765
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: something smaller that are that's not space?

766
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 3: Oh wait, so space is not space, is what you're saying.

767
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: Space is actually you know, A and B or a

768
00:36:59,080 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 3: combination of.

769
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: You yeah, yea yeah the way like you know, cookies

770
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: are not their ingredients, right, you mix them together, you

771
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: bake them, you get a cookie. But if you start

772
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: with flour and butter and sugar and none of those

773
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: things are cookies, right, So cookies an emergent phenomena in

774
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: your kitchen. They're not a fundamental you know, I mean

775
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: unless you buy a lot of cookies and that's all

776
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 1: you buy, in which case they are the fundamental pixel

777
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: of your kitchen.

778
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: Like there's even some hidden forces inside of space, is

779
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 3: what you're saying, right, Like there's yes something yes, wow yeah.

780
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: And there's some pretty cool theories about that. Like there's

781
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: one that's called them quantum loop theory, and it builds

782
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: space out of these tiny little loops. It says, maybe

783
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: the fundamental unit of location in the universe is not space,

784
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: it's something else. It's these little tiny loops and those

785
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: would be quantized of course, quantum loop gravity. And out

786
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: of those the way those things are connected, space is formed.

787
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: And that could tell you all sorts of things like well,

788
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: maybe that tells you why there's a maximum speed to

789
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 1: how fast information can travel through space, because it's how

790
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: fast these loops can talk to each other.

791
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 3: Like space is not like a space, is not like

792
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: a jelly or like a space. It's more like a

793
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: mesh or like a weave.

794
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, or a really complicated subway system and

795
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: connected by these other forces. And so you hear people

796
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: eminent science communicators saying things like maybe space emerges from

797
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: the quantum foam, right, and like I hear that, and

798
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: I think, what does that even mean? Man? And that's

799
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: what it means. It means that it's not a basic

800
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: element of the universe, but that it comes out of

801
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: the interaction of smaller stuff, right, the way cookies come

802
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: out of ingredients.

803
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 3: Be Aus, I'm walking down the street. What's actually happened

804
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 3: is that all of my electrons and protons and quarks

805
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 3: are actually like moving around in this mesh, this invisible

806
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: mesh that is the universe.

807
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I think it's even it's a trickier

808
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: to think about than that, because you can't think of

809
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: these elements of this mesh as bits of space. They're

810
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: not right. You can't move from one to the other

811
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: some how space arises from that. This whole concept of

812
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: location and motion through it could be an emergent phenomenon, right,

813
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: and one that doesn't have any meaning below that distance.

814
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: So you're not moving through the mesh somehow, you know,

815
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: information is propagating through the mesh or the mesh is

816
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: interacting with itself in some way. But this notion of

817
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: moving comes out of your assumption that, like space is fundamental,

818
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: and we have to rethink that if space is not fundamental, meaning.

819
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: Like a super Mario moving around the screen in your

820
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 3: TV is not actually moving. He's just like a table

821
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,479
Speaker 3: of data in some program. Yeah, that doesn't look like space.

822
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 3: It's just numbers related to each other exactly. That's the

823
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 3: perfect way to think about it. What makes those pixels right,

824
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 3: not smaller pixels? Right, it's some calculation inside the iPhone

825
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 3: and there's a little bit of technology there that lights

826
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 3: that up, and you know it's not motion. So it's

827
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: something totally different underneath. And so it could be the

828
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 3: universe is made out of things that this gradation is

829
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 3: granularity of space. These grains are made out of something

830
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 3: totally new and alien to us, and discovering them could

831
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 3: peel back a layer and reveal something really deep about

832
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 3: the universe. And so, you know, past the joint man,

833
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: because we're we're getting pretty deep here. So what do

834
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 3: you think, Orge, Do you think space is pixelated? Or

835
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 3: you think this is just a crazy idea? You know, intuitively,

836
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 3: it seems implausible, right, Like space seems so smooth, and

837
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 3: like we said before, it would mean that we're always

838
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 3: sort of teleporting from one spot to the other. But

839
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 3: you know, like you said, who knows, right, we used

840
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 3: to think matter was perfectly smooth, but it turned out

841
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 3: not to be.

842
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: So it sounds like modern physics has uprooted you from

843
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,479
Speaker 1: all of your beliefs about the way the world works.

844
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 3: Huh.

845
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: You know you now have skepticism about everything.

846
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, are you even there, Daniel?

847
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: No. I think that's a healthy attitude, you know, And

848
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: I think it's hard to hold that in your head.

849
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: I mean, on one hand, you go around your daily life,

850
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: you drive your car, you buy coffee, you do all

851
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: these things without thinking about the way the world is

852
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: working underneath you. And then sometimes I'm just struck breathless

853
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: by realizing the incredible complexity of things that are happening

854
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: invisibly around us, and you know that things might be

855
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: totally different from the way we imagine. It's hard to

856
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: hold that in your head a lot, which is why

857
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: it's nice sometimes to just read a magazine and gink

858
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee because it's breathtaking. You know. It's

859
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: disorienting the way learning that we're tiny specks on a

860
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 1: little mode of dust and a huge universes, but it's

861
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: also fun.

862
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 5: Wow.

863
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 3: Well, I hope that you guys out there listening also

864
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 3: maybe see the world a little bit differently.

865
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: All right, thanks very much for listening and enjoy the

866
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: rest of your day. If you still have a question

867
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,959
Speaker 1: after listening to all these explanations, please drop us a line.

868
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us

869
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and jorhe that's

870
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:15,439
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