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Speaker 1: I'm George Savers, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United

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Speaker 1: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect

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Speaker 1: of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about

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Speaker 1: the Mazles Brothers nineteen seventy five documentary Gray Gardens.

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Speaker 2: The iconic cult classic portraying the lives of idiosyncratic and

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Speaker 2: reclusive mother daughter Duo Edith Bouvier Beale, and Little Edie

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Speaker 2: Beale in their East Hampton estate, Gray Gardens.

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Speaker 1: Big Dy and Little Edie are Jackie O's aunt and cousin, respectively.

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Speaker 1: After Big Edie's marriage ended, she found herself alone in

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Speaker 1: her East Hampton home, and her daughter moved back in

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Speaker 1: with her a few years later.

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Speaker 2: Little Edie was at JFK's inauguration in nineteen sixty. There's

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Speaker 2: a famous story of her at the reception in the

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Speaker 2: White House, where she approached Joe Senior and joked that

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Speaker 2: she was the original future first Lady of the Kennedy family,

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Speaker 2: as she was almost engaged to Joe Junior before his

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Speaker 2: death in World War Two. There are striking similarities in

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Speaker 2: the way that Little Edie and Jackie O were raised,

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Speaker 2: but ultimately Little Edie never married, instead staying with her

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Speaker 2: mother in the house that, by nineteen seventy one was

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Speaker 2: full of cats, infested by fleas and raccoons, and deprived

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Speaker 2: of running water.

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Speaker 1: A series of inspections from the Suffolk County Health Department

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Speaker 1: allegedly resulted in one thousand bags of garbage being taken out.

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Speaker 1: As this was happening, Big Edy and Little Edie became

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Speaker 1: infamous to the American public after a big cover story

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Speaker 1: in New York Magazine about them and an article in

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Speaker 1: the National Inquirer.

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Speaker 2: Jackie O and her sister Lee Radswell provided the funds

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Speaker 2: for a clean up effort, which shockingly took place before

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Speaker 2: this documentary was filmed.

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Speaker 1: Enter the Mazles Brothers. The acclaimed documentarians originally visited the

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Speaker 1: Greg Gardens estate with Lee Radswell, but were immediately taken

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Speaker 1: with Big Edie and Little Edie. After spending more time

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Speaker 1: with them, they decided to make a film documenting their

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Speaker 1: day to day life life living together.

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Speaker 2: Grey Gardens screened at the nineteen seventy six cann Film

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Speaker 2: Festival and had its US premiere at the New York

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Speaker 2: Film Festival, where it received widespread acclaim, even though some

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Speaker 2: critics found its filmmaking exploitative.

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Speaker 1: It has since become a major cult classic and resulted

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Speaker 1: in a Tony winning musical, a movie adaptation starring Drew

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Speaker 1: Barrymore and Jessica Lang, a parody starring Fred Armison and

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Speaker 1: Bill Hayter, as well as, of course, thousands of drag

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Speaker 1: interpretations across the country.

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Speaker 2: This year is the fiftieth anniversary of the premiere of

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Speaker 2: Grey Gardens at the Paris Theater, which hosted a special

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Speaker 2: anniversary screening with special guest Julia Fox. She was one

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Speaker 2: of many Gray Gardens superfans that showed up to celebrate

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Speaker 2: the lasting impact of Big and Little Eatie.

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Speaker 1: Among them was our guest, Olivia Aylmer.

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Speaker 2: Olivia is a senior editor at the New York based

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Speaker 2: media company The Slowdown. Olivia writes about film art, literature,

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Speaker 2: and style, and covered the unofficial prequel to Grey Gardens,

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Speaker 2: titled that somm for Vanity Fair. Olivia, thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 2: My absolute pleasure.

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Speaker 3: I think there's nowhere else I'd rather be than talking

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Speaker 3: about Grey Gardens on a Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it so you sadly, I was out

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Speaker 1: of town for this, but you just attended a fiftieth

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Speaker 1: anniversary screaming hosted by Julia Fox, moderated by Julia Fox.

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Speaker 3: Julia Fox there to talk about how much this movie

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Speaker 3: means to her, alongside Alexis Bittar, the jewelry designer, and

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Speaker 3: Rebecca Maseles, who is the daughter of Albert, who is

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Speaker 3: one of the filmmakers. So it was a really special moment.

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Speaker 3: As I'm sure you both know that Paris is the

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Speaker 3: very theater where Grey Gardens had its public premiere and

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Speaker 3: that was fifty years ago. So huge moment and really special.

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Speaker 3: And you know, a crowd full of the ghosts of

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Speaker 3: Little Edie in their fabulous head scarves.

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Speaker 1: Was there sort of drag stuff happening?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't even call it drag. It was like total devotion.

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Speaker 3: It was really like people just couldn't help themselves, Like

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Speaker 3: I think these head scarves have been waiting for their moment,

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Speaker 3: and Sunday was that moment.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, everyone turned out.

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Speaker 2: So what was your relationship to the film before this

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Speaker 2: fiftieth anniversary screening?

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Speaker 3: So I was giving this some thought and I think, honestly,

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Speaker 3: my first awareness of big and Little Edie was probably

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Speaker 3: the two thousand and nine HBO fictionalized portrait with Jessica

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Speaker 3: Lang Andrew Barrymore, which I'm sure I just saw an

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Speaker 3: ad for at the nilsaon with my mom and was like,

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Speaker 3: I love Drew Barrymore like she was an et and

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Speaker 3: ever after.

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Speaker 1: So that was my.

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Speaker 3: Awareness of Okay, there are these women and they look

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Speaker 3: like this and who are they. My way into the

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Speaker 3: actual documentary didn't happen until high school. I had a

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Speaker 3: really good friend named Lauren, who was the only other

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Speaker 3: woman at my suburban Richmond, Virginia high school who planned

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Speaker 3: to move to New York City. So we were like

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Speaker 3: kindred spirits. And her dad had worked in a musical theater,

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Speaker 3: had been a tap dancer, and one day he was like, girls,

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Speaker 3: do you know about great gardens? No, okay, Olivia, you're

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Speaker 3: coming over and putting it on, And it was this

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Speaker 3: I feel like it was the fourth of July for

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Speaker 3: some reason, which feels fitting. And he basically gave his

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Speaker 3: commentary voice over, weaving a to big Little Edies voices,

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Speaker 3: which we'll get into this more.

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Speaker 1: But it is such a coffiness.

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Speaker 3: I would say it is the word movie and yeah

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Speaker 3: that was my official sitting down. This is education, Like

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Speaker 3: you need to know about this film.

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Speaker 2: What was his messaging? What was he narrating throughout?

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Speaker 3: I mean I think he was just like, you two

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Speaker 3: are spirited young women who want to do things a

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Speaker 3: little differently. I like, not stay in the place that

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Speaker 3: you went high school in. And here are two women

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Speaker 3: that you need to know about who very unapologetically lived

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Speaker 3: their lives and had this just ineffable spirit. I think

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Speaker 3: it was really just about their souls and him wanting

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Speaker 3: us to have a relationship to that aspect. I don't

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Speaker 3: remember him going super deep into history of the making.

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Speaker 3: It was really just about them. Like I feel like

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Speaker 3: he knew some of the lines by heart, which happens.

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Speaker 3: I think once you've seen this at least twice, there

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Speaker 3: are just like stray pieces of their interactions that just

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Speaker 3: live in your brain forevermore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I keep thinking about on TikTok they say vocal stem, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's like pieces of And I realized

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Speaker 2: when I was watching this, I was like, oh, really,

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Speaker 2: Gray Gardens was my first experience with a vocal stem

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Speaker 2: that stuck with me my whole life. I can hear

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Speaker 2: little leady in my head anytime.

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Speaker 1: It's true, what a generous reading of the film from

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Speaker 1: a dad. You know. I think that was certainly My

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Speaker 1: first interaction with it was after I had already been

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Speaker 1: quote unquote reclaimed, whatever that means. I saw it at

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Speaker 1: the Castro Theater in San Francisco and I was living there,

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Speaker 1: and if it was introduced by a drag queen, and

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Speaker 1: it was already framed to me like a gay cult classic,

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Speaker 1: and I was primed to be like, Okay, we love

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Speaker 1: these women. They're iconic. Look at her amazing headscarf. Whatever.

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Speaker 1: But it's such a genuinely moving thing to think that

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Speaker 1: a dad would show his ambitious and smart daughters these

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Speaker 1: two women and for the message to be they lived

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Speaker 1: life on their own terms. It's true.

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Speaker 3: I mean I get a father ahead of his time

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Speaker 3: in some ways. By again, the musical theater background I'm

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Speaker 3: sure influenced thought. And you know, I wish I could

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Speaker 3: go back and ask him, like what his first exposure,

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Speaker 3: because it is really interesting to think about how people

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Speaker 3: come to things that seem like they're just a part

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Speaker 3: of their but no, everyone has like their entry point.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember what your reaction was at that age.

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Speaker 3: I think even if I had not gone on to

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Speaker 3: write or edit or work in media, I think they

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Speaker 3: would have just had a hold on me. Like if

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Speaker 3: I had just seen it that one time, that would

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Speaker 3: have been a strong core memory. I feel like it's

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Speaker 3: one of those documentaries where you're like, I don't think

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Speaker 3: I've seen anything quite like this before. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: can barely imagine what a person in nineteen seventy five

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Speaker 3: seeing it would have felt. On Sundays at the screening

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Speaker 3: with my girlfriend and she was experiencing the lore of

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Speaker 3: it for the first time, and she turned to me

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Speaker 3: and whispered midway through, I feel like I'm watching the Kardashians.

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Speaker 3: And I promise I had not planted that at all.

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Speaker 3: That was a truly organic response. There is something just

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Speaker 3: so strangely familiar and also utterly strange about what we're

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Speaker 3: witnessing two people on camera being super aware of the

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Speaker 3: camera but also unable to stop being themselves.

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Speaker 2: And it's even kind of shot and edited in the

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Speaker 2: Housewives style. I mean, this is the larger conversation about

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Speaker 2: is it. It's really you can find a path from

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Speaker 2: great gardens to what modern reality television looks and sounds

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Speaker 2: like and it's so, I guess ironic or maybe fitting,

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Speaker 2: maybe the opposite of ironic that Carol Radswell became a

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Speaker 2: housewife after Lee Radswell is the catalyst for this documentary happening.

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Speaker 1: That's true. So I know you've written about the other documentary,

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Speaker 1: That Summer, which is a documentary that came out in

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen that is also about Big Edy and Little Edie,

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Speaker 1: but sort of a slightly different way. Lee Radswell is

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Speaker 1: a huge character in a u se Andy Warhol, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get into later. But I wonder if in your

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Speaker 1: research about the film you have a sense of what

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Speaker 1: it means for documentary history, Like it was not the

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Speaker 1: way things were done at the time, and it was

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Speaker 1: kind of controversial when it came out, So what is

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Speaker 1: your sense of the impact it had on documentaries at

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Speaker 1: that time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think since you brought up That Summer, it

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Speaker 3: is helpful for listeners who might not be familiar with

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Speaker 3: that film and the history behind it, Like it can

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Speaker 3: basically be viewed as a prequel to what Greg Gardens

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Speaker 3: became the quick backstories that Lee Radswell had this vision

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Speaker 3: for there to be a documentary about her summer's spending

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Speaker 3: time in the Hamptons and going to visit her cousin.

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Speaker 3: And so she had this vision for a documentary where

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Speaker 3: it would be like big Eady is narrating it or

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Speaker 3: has some kind of little role in it, but it

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Speaker 3: really is about her and this documentation of her memories.

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Speaker 3: And they went there that summer of nineteen seventy two

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Speaker 3: with the Mazles brothers. She was like, Okay, you're going

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Speaker 3: to be our crew. She was with her boyfriend Peter Beard,

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Speaker 3: the photographer, and I think she became aware of the

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Speaker 3: Masls through their Rolling Stones documentary that had come out

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Speaker 3: a little bit earlier. Within a few weeks of encountering

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Speaker 3: the Beules, their attention was nowhere else but them. Whatever

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Speaker 3: vision Lee had of what this was going to be,

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Speaker 3: it became very clear that that was not the real

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Speaker 3: story here. The real stars were emerging and it was

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Speaker 3: these two women in this house and how they got

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Speaker 3: there and how they were living out their lives together.

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Speaker 3: And so all of that original footage was lost or

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Speaker 3: sort of scrapped, and they returned the fall of nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy three to make what became Grey Gardens. That film

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Speaker 3: was also made grey gardens at a time where there

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Speaker 3: was already some public scandal around, you know, the Bules,

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Speaker 3: which is inseparable from how the media was understanding them

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Speaker 3: and playing a role in this. So there were these

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Speaker 3: like what Big and Little Eadie called raids, but you know,

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Speaker 3: inspections happening by the local Stuffolk County Health Department, the ASPCA.

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Speaker 3: They were like, these conditions are not these are not sustainable.

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Speaker 3: We need to do something and tried to basically raise

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Speaker 3: the house. And that is when Lee and also Jackie,

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Speaker 3: which we're get into, stepped in to try to restore

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Speaker 3: it or at least get it into a condition where

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Speaker 3: they could keep living there.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, stay.

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Speaker 2: With us, and we're back with the United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 1: The raids were happening because of media coverage of the sisters,

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Speaker 1: because there was this famous like New York magazine cover story.

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Speaker 1: I think it was also covered in the Times. What

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Speaker 1: was the timeline of.

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Speaker 3: That, well, I think the raids were not necessarily because

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Speaker 3: of the media coverage. The raids were happening because the

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Speaker 3: town of East Hampton was concerned about the fact that

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Speaker 3: they had discovered the existence of these women in a

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Speaker 3: house that was quite literally falling apart around them. There

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Speaker 3: were holes in the ceiling. It's not an exaggeration to

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Speaker 3: say it was in a state of extreme disrepair and

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Speaker 3: out of a faux concern for their well being, but

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Speaker 3: really just this isn't the image of East Hampton that

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Speaker 3: we want to uphold, and we need to get in there.

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Speaker 3: They started finding ways to basically raise it to the ground,

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Speaker 3: and that was basically where Lee and then her sister

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Speaker 3: Jackie stepped in to offer their support and their financial support,

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Speaker 3: their just compassion around the situation and do what they

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Speaker 3: could to allow them to keep living there. But this

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Speaker 3: moment of the Raid's kind of coincided with this, Yes,

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Speaker 3: this New York Magazine cover story, which brought an awareness

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Speaker 3: to the greater public about not just who they were,

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Speaker 3: but their connection to Jackie, which was what made it

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Speaker 3: interesting enough for New York Magazine to say, let's make

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Speaker 3: this a cover story. It was also by total happenstance.

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Speaker 3: It was like the writer of that story had a

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Speaker 3: house nearby and her daughter had found some rabbits and

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Speaker 3: was like, there's all these cats around that house, which

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Speaker 3: she called the witch House. Maybe we should go over

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Speaker 3: and see if they'll take the rabbits. And the writer

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Speaker 3: Gail sees this woman approaching in a headscarf and goes like, wait,

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Speaker 3: I think I know her. There's something familiar about her,

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Speaker 3: and comes to find what The reason she looks familiar

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Speaker 3: is that she has related to Jackie Kennedy, who everyone

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Speaker 3: at that moment in time knew what she looked like.

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Speaker 3: So I guess I brought that up to say, it's

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Speaker 3: very hard to separate the sort of scandal or tabloid

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Speaker 3: fodder that was just the Grey Garden's house and the

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Speaker 3: woman living in it from the emergence of Grey Gardens

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Speaker 3: the film.

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Speaker 1: The film is.

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Speaker 3: Nineteen seventy five, right, and this cover story is a

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Speaker 3: few years prior. So there is this growing awareness and interest,

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Speaker 3: maybe morbid curiosity about who is inhabiting this space, how

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Speaker 3: did they get there?

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Speaker 2: So in that summer, are you seeing the house before

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Speaker 2: the cleanup or is that still after the cleanup.

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Speaker 3: What it's documenting is Lee coming to try to support

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Speaker 3: that process. So I believe I don't know the exact timeline,

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Speaker 3: but let's say it's a few months after they are

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Speaker 3: these threats for the house to be taken from them,

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Speaker 3: and so I don't know if you both have seen

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Speaker 3: it. It is available I think, on Sundance channel on YouTube

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Speaker 3: for anyone who hasn't. But you see these really tender

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Speaker 3: moments of her just talking to her aunt and her

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Speaker 3: cousin and trying to say, Okay, maybe we should have

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Speaker 3: cut all of the really delicate and expensive porcelain in

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Speaker 3: storage because it might get stolen. Let's have these people

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Speaker 3: come up and clean. Like she's really trying to help

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Speaker 3: them through this moment where they just feel like they're

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Speaker 3: losing all of their privacy, and you know, it's an uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: I think, transitional moment. But what's also happening is the

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Speaker 3: a camera for the first time is being turned on

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Speaker 3: little Edie in particular, and she's going, wait, I've been

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Speaker 3: waiting for this moment my whole life, perhaps, and so

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Speaker 3: there's this yeah, really, I don't know if magical is

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Speaker 3: the word, but something's happening, Something really interesting is happening

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Speaker 3: where they are becoming aware of people's awareness of them,

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Speaker 3: and rather than wanting to shut the doors and say okay,

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Speaker 3: actually we want to be even more private, they're like, wait,

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Speaker 3: we're having a nice time. People are taking an interest

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Speaker 3: in us, and maybe we should keep the door open,

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Speaker 3: and they do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that is so interesting because even Lee said

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Speaker 2: it took weeks for them to open the door for

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Speaker 2: her when she first tried to go out there. So

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Speaker 2: they reached a point where they seem to have a

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Speaker 2: desire to be presented publicly.

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Speaker 1: I think that started to happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but there was a skepticism certainly, for you know,

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Speaker 3: do these people actually want to help us, did they

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Speaker 3: really care about us? Or are they just trying to

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Speaker 3: take away our home? The place, especially for big Ead

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Speaker 3: like she had been living there at that point since

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Speaker 3: I want to say the twenties, like her husband feel

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Speaker 3: and Beale had purchased it and they had lived there

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Speaker 3: together and then they separated and he eventually served her

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Speaker 3: divorce papers and that was it. But that was where

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Speaker 3: she had put down her roots and welcomed her daughter back.

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Speaker 3: And I think they had this really deep connection to it,

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Speaker 3: and to lose it would have meant losing a sense

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Speaker 3: of identity and any sort of groundedness, which they were

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Speaker 3: losing the longer that they stayed there without many guests.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, along those lines, walk us through just abridged history

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Speaker 1: of the relationship with the house. So how long had

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Speaker 1: they been living there? How long were they there just

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Speaker 1: the two of them. I know that little Edy at

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Speaker 1: some point was gone and then she came back. What

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Speaker 1: led to what we actually see in the documentary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question because the documentary doesn't really

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Speaker 3: get into the backstory. It opens with some headlines, so

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Speaker 3: you have a sense again of this growing public awareness,

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Speaker 3: but it doesn't really tell you how they got there.

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Speaker 3: So basically, in nineteen seventeen, Big Edie married this lawyer

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Speaker 3: financier named Phelan Beal who had worked at her father's

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Speaker 3: law firm Moovi and Beal. They had this really grand

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Speaker 3: wedding ceremony at Saint Patrick's Cathedral, Something like twenty five

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Speaker 3: hundred people attended. You do see in the film her

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Speaker 3: wedding portrait, which is quite striking. But so they were married.

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Speaker 3: They lived on Madison Avenue, which is actually now the

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Speaker 3: site of the Carlisle Hotel. They lived at that site

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Speaker 3: for a while and then in nineteen twenty three, Filan

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Speaker 3: purchased the Great Gardens Mansion in East Hampton, right a

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Speaker 3: block from the ocean. The couple separated in nineteen thirty one,

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Speaker 3: but big Ead was able to keep the Great Garden's house.

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Speaker 3: And you know, she had two sons as well, Utle

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Speaker 3: Eay's brothers. They had gone off to college and serving

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Speaker 3: in World War Two and kind of had families of

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Speaker 3: their own, so they were really nowhere to be found

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Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty two. That summer, Little Edie had spent

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Speaker 3: a few years in Manhattan and was trying to make

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Speaker 3: it as a dancer, performer, an actor, was trying to

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Speaker 3: kind of get her big break and it just wasn't happening.

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Speaker 3: And I think the narrative around that shifts depending on

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Speaker 3: who's talking about it. But she went to live with

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Speaker 3: her mother, and ostensibly because her mother had gotten cats,

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Speaker 3: so it was really it was all about the cats,

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Speaker 3: like she had to come back and help take care

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Speaker 3: of them. And so that sort of is the pivot

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Speaker 3: point right nineteen fifty two, and then they are there

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Speaker 3: into the early seventies. I was also struck just in

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Speaker 3: revisiting all of this history that Biggie died in nineteen

357
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Speaker 3: seventy seven, so two years after Greg Garden's actually premieres

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Speaker 3: and is out in the world. She's not with us

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Speaker 3: for that much longer, And just to put a finer

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Speaker 3: point on the history of the house, when Big Eadie dies,

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Speaker 3: Little Edie does go on to sell the house, and

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Speaker 3: she actually sells it to Ben Bradley, who's the former

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Speaker 3: executive editor of The Washington Post and his wife, the

364
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Speaker 3: journalist Sally Quinn. So it ends up kind of being

365
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Speaker 3: passed into new hands, but still in this sort of

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Speaker 3: median culture bubble, which is quite interesting. I mean, really

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Speaker 3: people were describing it as a haunted house in the seventies,

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Speaker 3: but now I can't even imagine. Maybe because it's been

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Speaker 3: so refurbished, the ghosts of left, but it's.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they really cared for the house. They you know,

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Speaker 2: Sally Quinn, they made sure to sell to somebody that

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Speaker 2: was going to care for the home and not just

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Speaker 2: raise it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And part of the terms was that they weren't

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Speaker 1: allowed to raise it. They could renovate it, but they

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Speaker 1: could not completely tear it down. That's correct. And part

377
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Speaker 1: of the mythology of all of this is that these

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Speaker 1: are formerly wealthy people that are now living in Squalor,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that they are adjacent to the Kennedy's.

380
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Speaker 1: Of course adds to the sort of desire to gock

381
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Speaker 1: get them and be like, can you believe this is

382
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Speaker 1: happening in terms of purely the money? Am I right

383
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Speaker 1: to say that Jackie's father, Blackjack Bouvier, was somehow in

384
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Speaker 1: charge of their inheritance, and then it did not make

385
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Speaker 1: its way to them, and so all they had was

386
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Speaker 1: this house.

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Speaker 3: I think that part of what happened with Jackie's father

388
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Speaker 3: was like the stock market crash. I mean, I think

389
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Speaker 3: he had some financial troubles of his own, so that

390
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Speaker 3: inheritance was shrinking as it was, and then there's very

391
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Speaker 3: little of it left and they started to receive like

392
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Speaker 3: a small allowance. I want to say it was like

393
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Speaker 3: thirty five hundred a year. But it was going from

394
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Speaker 3: big Edie being married to a wealthy man and having

395
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Speaker 3: what seemed like a life of comfort ahead of her

396
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Speaker 3: to also his leaving, and I think that rupture in

397
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Speaker 3: their relationship. Suddenly she is a single mom now, and

398
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Speaker 3: she wasn't working, like, she wasn't bringing in her own money,

399
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Speaker 3: so she was reliant on family and the men in

400
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Speaker 3: her life to support.

401
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Speaker 1: I do think from.

402
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Speaker 2: What I've been reading that has like totally changed my

403
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Speaker 2: perspective of Big Eadie is that she was very young

404
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Speaker 2: when she got married and he was fourteen years older,

405
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Speaker 2: and she really wanted to be a professional singer, and

406
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Speaker 2: she continued to pursue that dream the entire time she

407
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Speaker 2: was married, and that is what led to their separation.

408
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Speaker 2: And the way they don't explain it in the documentary

409
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Speaker 2: sounds more like, oh, he left her and he married

410
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Speaker 2: somebody else, But there's two decades worth of that separation

411
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Speaker 2: occurring before he actually marries someone else. And that is

412
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Speaker 2: just wild to me because as a teenager watching it,

413
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Speaker 2: I didn't really pay much attention to Big Die. I

414
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Speaker 2: was just hypnotized by Little Edie.

415
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Speaker 1: That's so funny. I also, this time around, was really

416
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Speaker 1: struck by a Big Edi. I have this memory of

417
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Speaker 1: her as you know, kind of like a quote unquote

418
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Speaker 1: crazy lady, and then this time around I found her

419
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Speaker 1: so wise. When she talks about the value of looking

420
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Speaker 1: back versus looking forward, she just has these lines where

421
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Speaker 1: she cuts right to the chase, as Little Edie is

422
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Speaker 1: still kind of half living in a dream world and

423
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Speaker 1: living this still very childlike existence. Obviously, they both have

424
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Speaker 1: their flaws, but this time around I came out with

425
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Speaker 1: quite a bit of respect for Big Edie. That's a

426
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Speaker 1: really good point.

427
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Speaker 3: And also I think there is the aspect of the

428
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Speaker 3: kind of temporality of the way the film is shot.

429
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Speaker 3: It feels like it's happening in this perpetual press where

430
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Speaker 3: it could just be one long day in tonight. But

431
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Speaker 3: actually I think the footage was shot over the course

432
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Speaker 3: of six weeks. And to your earlier question about what

433
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 3: kind of documentary was this and how is it received,

434
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 3: they're not trying to tell the full story of what

435
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 3: led to this state of affairs, which you just went

436
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,920
Speaker 3: into a bit lyra It is the portrait and it's

437
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 3: in this style that they were kind of pioneers of

438
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 3: which they called cinema Barry Tire direct direct film, trying

439
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 3: to capture what they were seeing before them, not trying

440
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 3: to set it up too much, but just letting these

441
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 3: people tell us who they are. And I think that's

442
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 3: where some of the controversy around was this just tabloid

443
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 3: fodder or was it sensationalized or exploitative like That's where

444
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 3: those questions arose. But yeah, there was a choice in

445
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 3: saying we want these women to be kind of letting

446
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 3: us into their world. They didn't invite themselves in like

447
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 3: they were invited in. They built enough trust for that

448
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 3: door to be opened to them.

449
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea of a perpetual present is so apt,

450
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: and I think that's also part of what makes it's

451
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: so eerie, is that part of the on an existential level,

452
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: part of them, like leaving the house to be as

453
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 1: is and never cleaning is basically it's like hitting pause.

454
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: It's like, whatever is happening now, this is it. We

455
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: are not making an effort to change it in any way.

456
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: We are just like this is sort of it's almost

457
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 1: like this is the this is the conclusion. We have

458
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: arrived where we are meant to be, And it's basically

459
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 1: this until the end. And it's striking the things that

460
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: are not mentioned, like the squalor of the house is

461
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: never directly mentioned by either of them, except for one

462
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: moment which I thought was so interesting, where they're having

463
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: people over for dinner and Big Eadie says like, I

464
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 1: thought you said you were going to clean, which is

465
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: such a fascinating thing coming out of her, because if anything,

466
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 1: she's the you know, quote unquote messier one. I mean,

467
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 1: her bed is famously filled with cats and old newspapers

468
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: and stains. So it's so funny to the one time

469
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: they address the messiness for her to say, I thought

470
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: you were going to clean, and then the other thing

471
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: that's never really mentioned. They mentioned their family, but the

472
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: Bouvier and Kennedy connections are not like drilled into you

473
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: as much as you would think they would be. And

474
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: it's funny because Carol Radswell is almost like a contemporary

475
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: version of this where she doesn't mention her Kennedy connection

476
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: as much. In the Real Housewive, she sort of like

477
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 1: lets you infer it. So there's something almost classy about it,

478
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: like they're not being loud about their famous connections. I mean,

479
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: I guess there's some name dropping when it comes to

480
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: the marriage proposals.

481
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: That is like telling the story that's true, and they're

482
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 2: having this fight, and within the fight, Big Eadie starts

483
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 2: dropping the names as examples of like, you're not really

484
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: telling the whole story there, little Edie.

485
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after

486
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: this break.

487
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 2: And we're back with un States of Kennedy.

488
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: So in terms of how it was received as a documentary,

489
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: obviously there is inevitably going to be a debate around

490
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: whether it is exploitative versus delivering on the promise of

491
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 1: cinema very day and just like telling a story on

492
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: the subject's own terms. So what is your interpretation of

493
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: how that debate happened when it was released and then

494
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: how it evolved over the fifty years since then.

495
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 3: I'm not at all surprised that that debate was happening,

496
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 3: especially because, as we said, now we can look at

497
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 3: it and with our familiarity with reality television and that

498
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 3: style of seeing people on screen, it doesn't seem that

499
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 3: shocking or strange to us, like how these women are

500
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: coming across in some ways any sense of like are

501
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 3: they crazy? It's like they are so reminiscent of so

502
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 3: many people we watch on TV every day now. But

503
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 3: I think at the time there was something really unfamiliar

504
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 3: about what people were witnessing, and the Kennedy connection only

505
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 3: exacerbated that. And I would like to get into that

506
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 3: a little more in a moment, But I think that

507
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 3: it's a fair question to raise always, like what is

508
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 3: the agency of the subjects in any sort of portrayal

509
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 3: or documentation? But I think what cuts through that debate

510
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: is the way in which Little Edy, in particular, these

511
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 3: were women who couldn't stop themselves from performing like they

512
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 3: were performers, they were stars. And if we didn't have

513
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 3: Grey Gardens, if that original footage had been shelved and

514
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 3: Grey Gardens ever came to be, the fact that we

515
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 3: wouldn't know them, that to me seems the bigger heartbreak disappointment.

516
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 3: I think that one thing that revisiting all of this

517
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 3: inspired me to do was to learn more about whether

518
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: Little Edie had been at the premiere or whether they

519
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,479
Speaker 3: had gotten to see the final film and what they

520
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: thought about it. And I was really heartened to discover

521
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: that not only did Little Edie attend the original New

522
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 3: York Film Festival premiere in October of nineteen seventy five,

523
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 3: but she received a standing ovation, and there's this detail

524
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 3: of her throwing flowers into the crowd, like she almost

525
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 3: couldn't believe what was happening, and then when she did,

526
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 3: it was like that star power turned right on and

527
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: she was like, this is my moment, Like this is

528
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 3: what I've been waiting for. And it really delights me

529
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 3: just to know that she knew that she was a

530
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: shaded and seeing even if all this controversy is still

531
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,719
Speaker 3: valid to talk about and it's unsurprising.

532
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she also did a short lived cabareto of

533
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: some sort afterwards because there was interest in her as

534
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: a character, and so she did attempt to do a

535
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: stage show afterwards. It's a real testament to her on

536
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: screen charisma that regardless of what the accusations of exploitation are,

537
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: you just come out of it with such a deep

538
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: love for her as.

539
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: A character and her quotes. I mean, when I watched

540
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: it as a teenager, a lot of the heavier stuff

541
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: I will say went over in my head. And I

542
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: think partially because of what you were saying out. They're

543
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: not talking about the past. This is them today really

544
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: with no narration, there's no music, just presented plainly. And

545
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 2: as a teenager, I really hooked on to the parts

546
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 2: of Little Lady when she talks about freedom, when she

547
00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: talks about not wanting to get married, and her never

548
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: ending love of herself, and there's like a moment where

549
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: she says to her mom, I can do anything. I

550
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: know that I can do anything. Now as an adult

551
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: watching it, it's heartbreaking because she's sitting in this room

552
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: that is like the one room of the house that

553
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: is they can.

554
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that coexists exactly what you're describing Lara, how

555
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: in her own way liberated she is coexists with the

556
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: fact that she also is just literally trapped. She both

557
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: completely owns who she is, but also is constantly blaming

558
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,239
Speaker 1: others for the things she doesn't have. And so I

559
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: think this could serve as an argument against the idea

560
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: that she's being exploited, is that she actually is allowed

561
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: to be a very complex figure on camera, and I

562
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: think she could so easily have been just caricatured. But

563
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: the quotes that you get from her actually paint a

564
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: pretty complicated picture.

565
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 3: But you know, and we are saying that the film

566
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: doesn't really bring in the past, or at least the

567
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 3: filmmakers don't in terms of how they're contextualizing it. I

568
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 3: think we should be really clear that the past is

569
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: constantly bumping up against the present in their surroundings and

570
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: these photographs in their memories, right, that's where we're getting

571
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 3: the glimpse into the past. And little Edie, this is

572
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 3: a woman who is being told most of her young

573
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 3: adult and teenage life, Oh, she's so beautiful. She has

574
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 3: so much promise and potential, and all these wealthy men

575
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: they talk about this, there are these marriage offers that

576
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: were made millionaires. She was wanted, she was desired. And

577
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 3: then she gets a little older. She's a woman in

578
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 3: her mid fifties at the time that the film emerges,

579
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 3: and it must have felt really frustrating to not be

580
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 3: taken seriously or given the same validation for who she

581
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: was the woman she was growing into, who is just

582
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: as fabulous, probably even more because now her personality is

583
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 3: sort of like on display and she's not playing by

584
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 3: whatever rule she was brought up with, And so I

585
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: think it's just important to bring that context in as well,

586
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 3: Like she is a woman without a husband or a partner.

587
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: She's being supported by her mother, and that is part

588
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 3: of what's trapping her there, but it's also just her

589
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: unwillingness to accept the path that was clearly laid out

590
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: for her and that she very well could have walked.

591
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about all the

592
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: stories of marriage proposals and the futures that could have

593
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: been not to fact check little Edie in real time,

594
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: but I did wonder how much of it was just

595
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: really wonderful storytelling. Do you have any idea of which

596
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: parts are you know, a little bit more flowery. I

597
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: wish I had a little.

598
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: More to say about it, but I honestly, I think

599
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: I was so taken with her stories of like, well,

600
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 3: this one almost asked me to marryam but I turned

601
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: them down. This one intrigued me, but it wasn't right

602
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: that I just didn't even take the next step to

603
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: go like did those proposals actually happen? I was on

604
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 3: that one piece. I was kind of buying what she

605
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: was selling, and I think we should, we should find out.

606
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: I kind of agree with the show, But then part

607
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: of it is like, yeah, I have no doubt. I

608
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 3: just want to kind of guttural intuitive love life. No

609
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: doubt that she was sought after. I mean, you see

610
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: the photos of her modeling, and I think the piece

611
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: that I feel a little more like hmm, skeptical about

612
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: is what happened in New York, like that trajectory of

613
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: trying to have this breakthrough. Is she charismatic? Is there

614
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: this like star power presence to just like flying off

615
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 3: the screen?

616
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: Yes?

617
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 3: But was she talented in a way that would have

618
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 3: built like a lasting career on stage. I don't know,

619
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 3: Like in some ways I'm like, yeah, what were the

620
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 3: expectations then, and how was she showing up in those

621
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: auditions that she speaks of. And she does have a

622
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 3: very quirky way of being in personality that probably just

623
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: wasn't always aligning with more of the presence than a

624
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 3: Lee Radswell or a Jackie was bringing. It's a good

625
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: juncture to say that little Edie is not the only

626
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: one who had some dreams deferred of being a working,

627
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: successful actor performer.

628
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: Lee made a stage appearance.

629
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 3: She was in a film called Laura. These efforts were

630
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: panned by critics pretty unambiguously. There is a great clip

631
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 3: I recommend everyone watch on YouTube of Lee with Truman Capoti,

632
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 3: the writer who was a friend and supporter, and she

633
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: is receiving some pretty nassy questions from a reporter who's saying,

634
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: do you think the only reason you've got these opportunities

635
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: is because you're Jackie's sister? Or why are you still

636
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 3: trying this? Didn't you hear the critics like you're not good?

637
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 3: That's story of the tone of the interview, And she's

638
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: just handling it very elegantly. Kind of not even dodging,

639
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 3: just sort of they are rolling right off of her.

640
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: She's not engaging with it. It's like she's above it all.

641
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 3: And I think that you can tell watching Little Edie

642
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 3: that she wouldn't have handled those questions in the same way.

643
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 3: She would have been like, what do you mean, I've

644
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: got something, I can do anything. It was more, if anything,

645
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: the biggest difference between them is like a lack of

646
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: media training and a lack of interest in being perceived

647
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: in that way. Lee and Jackie also had their own

648
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: very very fair share of major heartbreak, loss, grief, haunting

649
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: life experiences that they had to carry with them along

650
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: with disappointment, failed auditions, et cetera, et cetera. And I

651
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: think it's so easy to say that these are polar

652
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 3: opposite women and that that's where the tension lies. But

653
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 3: I think the tension is actually in house similar they

654
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: really are, and with a few different choices, they might

655
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: have been in a very similar place.

656
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 2: Also in the fact that all three of them were

657
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: raised to marry well, I mean that was the messaging

658
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: that they got was regardless of who you are, what

659
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 2: you achieve in order to have the support that you

660
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: will need in life. Your first goal needs to be

661
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: marrying well. And yeah, Jackie and Lee took that very

662
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: seriously Jackie at least, I would say, and Gidi didn't.

663
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: It seems that's true, except.

664
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: That Lee went through two divorces, right, This is a

665
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: woman who is divorced twice. I mean when she is

666
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: at Grey Gardens the summer nineteen seventy two, she's there

667
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: with her lover, her boyfriend, Peter Beard.

668
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: They're not married.

669
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: So what's more scandalous not following the safe path and

670
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 3: having a husband or having multiple lovers and partners and

671
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: divorces in a lifetime. It's not so neat, is when

672
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 3: I'm coming to after revisiting all of this.

673
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: Oh completely, it's easy to look at little Edie without

674
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: any context and be like, why is she wearing a

675
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: cart again as a skirt? She looks a complete mess.

676
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: But in fact it's the same impulse that Jackie has

677
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 1: when she looks really fabulous on camera. She has a

678
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: personal sense of fashion and sometimes it's really incredible, and

679
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: she is using what she has at her disposal, which

680
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: is way less wealth and way less money and way

681
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: less access to designer clothes than Jackie has, but despite

682
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: the fact that she's literally surrounded by a cat shit,

683
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: every time she's on camera, she makes sure to have

684
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: her head covered. She's making very sort of interesting choices.

685
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: There's one scene where she has two small scarves tied

686
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: around her ankles, which is something I had never seen before.

687
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: It's just so clearly coming from a mind that is

688
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: thinking in terms of esthetics and thinking in terms of

689
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: combining different patterns and fabrics and whatever. It's obviously a

690
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: different quote unquote poise, but it is poison. Nonetheless, it

691
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: is kind of dressing herself up in a way that

692
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: elevates you compared to your surroundings. And your surroundings can

693
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: be either tragic in the literal sense or they can

694
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: be tragic in the more spiritual sense of having gone

695
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: through so much trauma and whatever. So it is, you know,

696
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: not to take it in a completely different direction, but

697
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: that also is I think very clearly what makes both

698
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: the wealthier Bouvias and these Bovia's into such gay icons,

699
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: because they become these women who have overcome tragedy and

700
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 1: overcome trauma while looking good for the camera.

701
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: It also reminded me of Paris's burning every time I

702
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: saw Little Edie come out in a costume that was

703
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: her words.

704
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: I mean, the relationship with Greg Gardens and drag is

705
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: one of the most lasting influences that the film has had. Literally,

706
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: when I went to see it in San Francisco, was

707
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: introduced by a drag queen. Funnily enough, pink Flamingos came

708
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: out two years before Greg Gardens did. And there is

709
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: the scene of the mom being in bed and like

710
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: a sort of Greg Gardens esque environment along with the daughter.

711
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: So John Waters have had some sort.

712
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: Of you know, oh yeah, he references them in hairspray.

713
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 3: These are women who are like dressing for or at

714
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: least Little Edie is dressing for the life she wants,

715
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 3: not for the surrounding she has. And I think the

716
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: biggest difference that I see in their serritorial approach is

717
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 3: Jackie and Little Edie. I think Jackie is often presenting

718
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 3: herself in a way that she thinks the public expects

719
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: of her, or that the camera kind of wants her

720
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 3: to appear, and Little Edie is dressing a way that

721
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: like the camera can't turn away from her. And this

722
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: is a film that in some ways just had to exist.

723
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 3: Once there were cameras in that space, A film was happening.

724
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 3: Whether or not, I mean they did agree to it, right,

725
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 3: that's important to say, but it was happening either way.

726
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: Did Jackie O ever speak publicly about the documentary after

727
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: it was released?

728
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a really good question. I actually wish I'd

729
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 3: looked into that, and I didn't. Let's look it up.

730
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: I would be really curious. I think that Little Edy

731
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 3: and Big d I was more interested in whether they

732
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 3: had seen it and gotten to understand how it was

733
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 3: being received. But Lee, I'm sure felt a little uncomfortable. Again,

734
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: that footage was hidden for many years, and I think

735
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 3: she wanted it to be her movie, and it very

736
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: much did not turn out to be her movie. And

737
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: if any of you all end up watching that summer,

738
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: I think you'll just see like, she's so sweet and

739
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 3: tender on screen, and that's lovely to see, but she's

740
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 3: not captivating. I don't think we would be talking about

741
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 3: it on a podcast in twenty twenty five.

742
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: Frankly, we'll be back with more United States of Kennedy

743
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: after this break, and.

744
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: We're back with the United States of Kennedy.

745
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: This movie was a phenomenon in its own right. It

746
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: was both critically acclaimed and controversial. It was accused of

747
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: being exploitative while also immediately becoming iconic. It popularized these

748
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: two women who then became on screen legends and their

749
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: own right. It has become a TV movie, as you said,

750
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: is Jessica Lang and Drew Barrymore. It has become a

751
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: musical that was nominated for ten Tonys. It was more

752
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: recently parodied by Fred Armisson and Bill Hayter in documentary

753
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: Now where they play versions of Big Edy and Little Edie.

754
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: It's been on Rupol's Drag Race, Endless Drag performances have

755
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: been influenced by it. What do you think accounts for

756
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 1: its lasting power?

757
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: I think that to me, this is like a funhouse

758
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: mirror of a film, and it is a litmus test

759
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 3: whenever you encounter it, if you are a teenager watching

760
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: it for the rich time, like you're talking about Lyra,

761
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 3: or a thirty something woman at a particular place in

762
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 3: her career, unmarried or married. Wherever you are going to

763
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 3: take something a little different from this film, different quotes

764
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 3: are going to stick in your mind. Whether you experience

765
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 3: discussed repulsion, pity, whether you're watching them and going like

766
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 3: this is unbelievable. These women have such charm and charisma,

767
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: and I can't get enough. You're feeling sympathy, you're whatever,

768
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: you're feeling. It just I think it really brings up

769
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: a lot of strong emotions in people. And even if

770
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 3: you don't necessarily have your own version of an eccentric

771
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: grandma and aunt living on Long Island, there's family dynamics

772
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 3: that are so universal playing out here. One thing I

773
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: want to mention that Julia Fox brought up in her

774
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 3: remarks on Sunday was the ways in which they're having

775
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: these caddy moments or like back talking about each other,

776
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: but the moment that one person leaves the room, there'll

777
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: be this like sweetness or Biggie being like, actually, you know,

778
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: she's always had a better voice than me, even though

779
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: she's just been telling her, it'll stop saying. There's so

780
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 3: much that people can relate to in their own family

781
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: and friend dynamics, and I think it's we're seeing such

782
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: a heightened version of it, and yet there's something really

783
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 3: familiar in these little interactions of like, yeah, if I

784
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 3: had made a different decision, if I hadn't decided to

785
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 3: move back in with my parents that one year. If

786
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 3: I hadn't ultimately decided not to go to the audition,

787
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 3: what would my life be. And there's this poetry, like

788
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 3: an internal poetry to the film that I think is

789
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: why I really do think we'll be watching it for

790
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 3: the next fifty years and the fifty years after that.

791
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 3: And to me, that is the legacy. It's the fact

792
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 3: that their legend was born on screen through this movie,

793
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 3: but it's one that keeps finding people, and to me,

794
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 3: that's the sign. Those are my favorite pop cultural time capsules,

795
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 3: are things that you are constantly finding something new in.

796
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it almost exists out of place and time

797
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: in its own way, like it really is just the

798
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: two of them. Because the house is so, you know,

799
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: kind of funky. There's nothing tying into a specific time period.

800
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 1: It's not like the furniture is specifically seventies or their

801
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: fashion is specifically seventies. Like it is almost like they

802
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: are already fictional characters living in a fairy tale, which

803
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: is in fact why the scene of the guests coming

804
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: for dinner is so shocking, because they suddenly have this

805
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: brief interaction with the outside world I'm wondering, do you

806
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: have any moments that you keep coming back to. Do

807
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: you have like a favorite quote or something that when

808
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: you first watched it you responded to.

809
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 3: There's so much, and I think you alluded to a

810
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: couple of these moments, Lyra. I did have to take

811
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 3: note of the moment about freedom, where little ladies like

812
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 3: I like freedom and her mom's like, well, you can't

813
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: get it, darling, you're being supported. Get any freedom when

814
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: you're being supported, And they go back and forth about this,

815
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 3: and little Edie winds up going, you know, I think

816
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 3: you're not free when you're not being supported. It's awful

817
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: both ways, like these truthful little gems. You know, there

818
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: is the moment with little Ye reading astrology book with

819
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: a magnifying glass and talking about if I could just

820
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 3: find that librin husband like that.

821
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: I just need a little order in my life. Yeah.

822
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 3: I think that it's the ways in which they're both

823
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 3: so aware of that camera and yet un self consciously

824
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: just rattling off these what did you call them, tiktoks?

825
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 3: I'm not really on TikTok oh.

826
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: Vocal stems as well stems.

827
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, they are queens of vocal stems before that was

828
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 3: even a thing.

829
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, the magnifying glass. I'm glad you brought up because

830
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: the use of the magnifying glass and the binoculars pretty binocularly,

831
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: because she refuses to get glasses, but she still needs

832
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 1: to see, so she literally uses binoculars for seeing far

833
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: and a magnifying glass for seeing close. It is one

834
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: of the most incredible. It also is, in its own way,

835
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 1: almost a fashion statement. It is her version of glasses.

836
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: Something fabulous about her being on a scale and using

837
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: binoculars to look at the number on the scale and

838
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: then being like, oh my god, it's up to one

839
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: forty five. The naming of that number too.

840
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 3: I think the number on scale is akin to the

841
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 3: moment in Materialists where she reveals she's making eighty thousand

842
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: dollars and people lost their minds.

843
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: Speaking of lines about freedom, because I would say, like

844
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: freedom is one of the main themes of the film,

845
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: and also sort of free will and choices is another one.

846
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 1: Like there's so much reminiscing about potential futures that were

847
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: forwarded because someone didn't or did make a choice, and

848
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: their current existence is almost like a metaphor for all

849
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: these things. And one moment that I truly could not

850
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: believe was in'tscripted, which I wrote down, is you know,

851
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: famously a cat peece behind a portrait in the house

852
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: and Big d says, you know, cat's going to the

853
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: bathroom right behind my portrait, and Little Edie says, God,

854
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: isn't that awful? And then Big Edie says, no, I'm

855
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: glad he is. I'm glad somebody's doing something he wanted

856
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: to do, which is like, that's I mean, that is

857
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: like so poetic. How do you even come up with

858
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 1: that on the spot?

859
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: I know, I know, well it's a dig at Little Leady.

860
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: Well, of course I know.

861
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: I feel like that must be sitting on top of

862
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: her head at all times. Every time Little Lady starts complaining,

863
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 2: she's like, these were all your choices?

864
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 3: Well, it is embodying that kind of codependent love that

865
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 3: goes so far as to spoil and turn into a

866
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 3: sort of it's never hate, but it is like they

867
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: know each other so well, it's hard to know where

868
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 3: Big Eadie begins and Little Edie ends. Sometimes and you

869
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: hear this in like I set up top, it is

870
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 3: a film in which it's almost like one long monologue

871
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 3: where it's voices talking over each other, interrupting each other, disagreeing, agreeing,

872
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 3: suddenly being on the same page, suddenly having two wildly

873
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: different narratives, Like there's this unstoppable force of ideas and

874
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: voices colliding, and you can only really have that with

875
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 3: someone that you deeply know well on such an intimate

876
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 3: at level.

877
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: Were there other moments at the fiftieth anniversary screening that

878
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: stuck out?

879
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 2: Oh?

880
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that people watching was great.

881
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: Usually I'm sort of against audience Q and a's, but

882
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: with this one, I would love for everyone to go

883
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: around the room and say what their relationship to the

884
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: movie was. Was there anything else sort of memorable that

885
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: you want to share?

886
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely well, So it needs to be said that Jerry

887
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 3: Tory was in the crowd the Marble Fawn himself, Jerry

888
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: Tory being kind of a runaway who somehow ended up

889
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 3: at their home taking care of it. And as far

890
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 3: as little Leadie was concerned, like falling in love with

891
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 3: her and he was going to be the ex proposal

892
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 3: coming and she was scared about that. But yeah, he's

893
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 3: a sculptor, he's an artist. He's still with us. And

894
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 3: he was in that crowd, which is truly remarkable. And

895
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: there were also so many people I want to say,

896
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: at least fifty hands raised seeing it for the first

897
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 3: time ever, which how special to see it on the

898
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 3: big screen with you know, mister Julia Fox there too.

899
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: But these two.

900
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 3: Younger women behind me as we were leaving, were just like, God,

901
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that I am alive in this era,

902
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: because if I had been living the life I'm living

903
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: then they would have been calling me a spinster. They

904
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 3: just could not believe how far in at least that regard,

905
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: how much more acceptable it seems to be to be

906
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 3: unmarried in your thirties, for example.

907
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: Well, and it's being unmarried, but it's also not having

908
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: the ability presented to you at any point, not having

909
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: the opportunity to support yourself financially, And this is like

910
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 2: they're butting up against the very end of that. Really,

911
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: I think that starting at that time, no one in

912
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 2: the general population was raising their daughters to never work

913
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: and just marry, you know, to support them to live,

914
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 2: to be able to live in a home and eat food.

915
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 2: But this is really the tail end of you know,

916
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: I think of sense and sensibility as those girls are stuck.

917
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: They're truly truly stuck until they get married and they

918
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 2: can't support them by law, and then this is really

919
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: the very very end bookend of that being a life

920
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: that would have been presented as the only option to

921
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 2: girls when they were born.

922
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 3: I don't know if women watching it at the time

923
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 3: would have come away being like, that is a desirable life,

924
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 3: and I wish I was them, But I do think

925
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 3: it was resonating in ways that are much clearer to

926
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 3: us now, but at the time it was just a

927
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 3: feeling of they've got something that maybe I actually want

928
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 3: in my life. I will say one more quick anecdote

929
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: from Sunday, So Rebecca Masles, as I said, was there.

930
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: She is the daughter of one of the filmmakers, Albert,

931
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 3: and she read a note that he had written to

932
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 3: Little Edie in the nineties, and he said that he

933
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 3: had been at a dinner party with this woman who

934
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 3: was like, Greg Gardens is my favorite movie of all time.

935
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 3: I remember seeing you at the Paris And this woman

936
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 3: went on to describe that while she was in the screening,

937
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 3: there was someone sitting a few seats away from her

938
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 3: who was just so engrossed leaning forward, could not take

939
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: her eyes off of them, and this woman realized that

940
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 3: woman was Greta Garbo. So Greta Garba was sitting in

941
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 3: the Paris at some point in time watching gray Gardens

942
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 3: and going, they've got something. I can't stop looking, And

943
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 3: I just find that beautiful. I really do think that

944
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 3: in some ways, at least for a little Edie, a

945
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 3: version of her dreams came true. It is certainly not

946
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 3: the one that she thought she wanted, but she is

947
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 3: regarded as a fashion icon, as an independent spirit and thinker.

948
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: And her mother, well, I don't know. I I don't

949
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: know if I would apply the same. It's for mother

950
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: an independent thinker. No, but she's incredible at getting in

951
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 3: little one liners. They both got an incredible legacy, and

952
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 3: that makes me feel really happy.

953
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: And you know, if anyone wants to see what the

954
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: house looks like now, it has been renovated head to

955
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 1: toe and there was just a New York mag piece

956
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 1: about it, and then there's a YouTube tour of it.

957
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: It looks completely unrecognizable, but it's still there.

958
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: I was wondering if they had spoken at all about

959
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 2: Muffy Meyer or Ellen hove Dy.

960
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 3: No, they didn't, and I am really glad that you mentioned,

961
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: because these were the two other films makers involved in

962
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 3: this production who really have not gotten their credit for it,

963
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 3: and I would love to learn more about them and

964
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 3: what they went on to make, so thank you for

965
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 3: bringing them into the room with us. Nope, they were

966
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 3: not mentioned one time on Sunday and that is a

967
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 3: huge oversight, where as far as I know, they were

968
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: not mentioned, but they were certainly a significant part of

969
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 3: making this happen.

970
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: Can you remind us what Andy Warhol's relationship with all

971
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: of this was, because he's in the other documentary, That Summer,

972
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: which I keep it's difficult in conversation to say that

973
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: Summer because it doesn't sound like a title, but the

974
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: documentary is called That Summer. So Andy Warhole is in

975
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: that and he was involved, So how did that work out?

976
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 3: So I think that he was friends with Peter Beard,

977
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 3: the photographer who was dating Lee at that time, and

978
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: I'm sure Lee was friendly with them as well. They

979
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 3: were a part of this group of Studio fifty four

980
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 3: people who were coming to East Hampton in the summer,

981
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 3: spending time there and making art there. So I'll say

982
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 3: that Andy Warhol was also credited as shooting some of

983
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 3: the footage from that summer of nineteen seventy two, along

984
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: with the filmmaker Jonas Mechis. So, you know, there were

985
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 3: incredible artists who were spending time in Easthampton, and he

986
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 3: was one of them, and so he was kind of

987
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: a part of that crew.

988
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 1: And I remember.

989
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: Reading something about him going to her cabaret show, being

990
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: in the front row every night.

991
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 3: I need to look into this cabaret show. Is there

992
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: any footage.

993
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: Of those I know? The cabaret show?

994
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: It?

995
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it was widely panned. And even it's funny, like

996
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: Hilton Als wrote the essay for the Criterion release of

997
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: Great Gardens, and he's obviously being so incredibly effusive about

998
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 1: his love for the Beals and everything, and the one

999
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: negative thing he says is about the cabaret show. Even

1000
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 1: someone who truly appreciates camp could not find something salvage

1001
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: al about the gabaret show.

1002
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 3: Listen, these were resilient women. As Little Edie calls herself.

1003
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: She was a staunch character, and she says, sta U

1004
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: n c h staunch. So one pan was not going

1005
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 3: to get her down. I think if we're going to

1006
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 3: take anything from this. It's not like, let the pans come,

1007
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 3: let the pans fall where they may, and carrying on.

1008
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great place to end. Olivia, thank you

1009
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: so much for chatting with us about Greg Gardens, both

1010
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: of us. I think when we first started doing this podcast,

1011
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: this was one of the episodes we couldn't wait for.

1012
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: You know, so much of what we cover is so

1013
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: truly tragic and includes literal murder and assassinations, and so

1014
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: we just like couldn't wait to talk about genuinely one

1015
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: of our favorite movies. And you know, maybe next time

1016
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: we'll have you on with Julia Fox half We're on.

1017
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 3: Oh truly. I mean there could be a part two

1018
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: to this. I think the amount of artists who have

1019
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 3: been shaped by this film is countless, and the fact

1020
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,280
Speaker 3: that I got to talk about it, I feel mentally lucky.

1021
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: I do think that they had something to do with

1022
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 3: this as well, because your invitation came I am not exaggerating,

1023
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 3: near hours after saying RSVP to this fiftieth anniversary screening.

1024
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: So something's in the air, something's being behind the scenes. Yeah,

1025
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 3: they wanted this conversation out, and I'm really glad. I

1026
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 3: got to stock to you guys.

1027
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you so much.

1028
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 2: Thank you. So that's it for this week's episode.

1029
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: Next week, we're looking at the life of Lee Harvey Oswald.

1030
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is listed by me Lyra Smith

1031
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 2: and George.

1032
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: Severes, Research by Dave Ruth and Austin Thompson.

1033
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: Original music by Josh Witzapolski.

1034
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: Edited by Graham Gibson, and mixed by Doug bain. Our

1035
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: executive producer is Jenna Cagel. United States of Kennedy is

1036
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcasts.

1037
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 2: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for All

1038
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: Beings Kennedy every week