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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Credit Edge, a weekly markets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name is James Crumbie. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: This week, we're very pleased to have on the show

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Speaker 1: Lisa Lee, who covers credit markets for Bloomberg News and

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Speaker 1: is based in London. How are you, Lisa.

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Speaker 2: Fine?

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Speaker 3: Thank you, James, and thank you for so much for

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Speaker 3: having me.

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Speaker 1: We're also delighted to welcome Stephan Kohochef, who focuses on

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Speaker 1: shipping at Bloomberg Intelligence, also in London.

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Speaker 2: Hi, James, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: We'll be coming back to Stefan to talk about how

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Speaker 1: container shipping is starting to fall apart after a major

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Speaker 1: boom during the pandemic when we were all cooped up

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Speaker 1: at home ordering stuff online. So do stay with us.

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Speaker 1: But first, Lisa Lee with Bloomberg News, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: going on right now with clos. You've been all over

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Speaker 1: that story and that's some you know, for those who

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Speaker 1: don't know, that's collateralized loan obligations. So let's start with

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Speaker 1: the elephant in the room. What is a colo and

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Speaker 1: why do we care?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 3: Colos are vehicles that buy leverage loans, and leverage loans

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Speaker 3: are debts of junk rated companies that are floating rate,

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Speaker 3: and they buy them and they repackage them and sell

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Speaker 3: them as bond of different ratings that range from triple A,

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Speaker 3: which is the safest all the way down to what's

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Speaker 3: called colo equity. And there are big buyer in the

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Speaker 3: leverage loan market and fuel issues for private equity deals

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Speaker 3: and also for just like names like Burger King and

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Speaker 3: names that you might know Flora in the UK.

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Speaker 1: So they buy loans, repackage them, sell them onto different investors.

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Speaker 1: Is that yes, okay? So are they anything like the

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Speaker 1: CDOs which blew up the financial system in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight.

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Speaker 3: They're similar in that the way they securitize their assets

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Speaker 3: very similar to CDOs. That's why they have a very

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Speaker 3: similar name. Different about a CDO and the clo iss

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Speaker 3: what goes into the securitized vehicle. These are corporate debt

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Speaker 3: and considered a lot more safer than some of the

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Speaker 3: dicey junk mortgage backed derivatives that were that caused the

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Speaker 3: financial crisis. So even though these are junk rated debt

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Speaker 3: and more likely to go bankrupt than say your Apple

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Speaker 3: or your Microsoft, they're still historically only about four percent defaults.

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Speaker 3: Bankruptcies are fairly low and recoveries have been fairly high,

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Speaker 3: so they're considered a lot safer, and very few clos

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Speaker 3: have gone bussed, even during the financial crisis.

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Speaker 1: So you're writing right now that resets, why are they

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Speaker 1: happening right now?

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Speaker 2: And what?

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Speaker 1: Just tell us what they are?

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Speaker 3: Okay, So resets are a type of refinancing that sort

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Speaker 3: of became in vogue around twenty seventeen twenty eighteen, And

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Speaker 3: what they do is they extend the life of a clo.

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Speaker 3: Colo is supposed to be a finite vehicle that after

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Speaker 3: a number of years, you sell the loans and you

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Speaker 3: return cash to all the investors. Well, a reset, sort

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Speaker 3: of like what you would consider a refinancing of a

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Speaker 3: higher bond or an ig bond, extends the maturity and

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Speaker 3: also sets the bond pricing at a different level. And

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Speaker 3: they've been pretty much dead in the water for the

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Speaker 3: last past over a year since the war in Ukraine,

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Speaker 3: just because it just didn't make sense anymore. But they've

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Speaker 3: started to come back, and we've saw two regular traditional

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Speaker 3: clos do these resets, and it's a real indication that

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Speaker 3: markets are starting to heal from f a year of

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Speaker 3: really painful of returns and eels.

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Speaker 1: So an investor who is you know, has owns a

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Speaker 1: piece of this thing, this structure that repackages leverage loans

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Speaker 1: from companies. They are essentially being told that they need

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Speaker 1: to hold on to them for longer. Will they get

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Speaker 1: paid more for doing that?

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Speaker 3: No, they actually get paid less. So that is the

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Speaker 3: issues in the COLO. They take all the interest payments

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Speaker 3: that a leverage loan makes and they press them into

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Speaker 3: a different investors, so triple a investor will get a

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Speaker 3: lot less than say a single be investor and an

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Speaker 3: equity investor. And what a reset does is they take

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Speaker 3: away the yield, some of the yield that bond investor

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Speaker 3: gets and increase the returns of equity investors. So why

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Speaker 3: would a bond investor play along? Well, you have to

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Speaker 3: look at the prevailing issuance and the yield that you

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Speaker 3: can get in the market right now. What they can

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Speaker 3: either say yes, will take a lower interest payment, or

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Speaker 3: you can get out and you can try to find

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Speaker 3: another deal that pays similar there and they really can't.

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Speaker 3: So you have the option to roll, option to leave.

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Speaker 3: Some do leave and try to put their money in

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Speaker 3: different areas, but that is why they would take the

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Speaker 3: lower interest rate.

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Speaker 1: So rates globally have gone up quite a bit. You

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Speaker 1: can get an investment grade bond for five percent yield

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Speaker 1: right now, which is, you know, much more than junk

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Speaker 1: was yielding even a year ago. Why do you go

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Speaker 1: into clasteralize loan obligations? I mean, do you get paid

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Speaker 1: significantly more or is it just a diversification or is

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Speaker 1: it what's the benefit?

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Speaker 3: You do get paid more than a corporate bond. So yes,

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Speaker 3: everything has gone up. But so you look at a

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Speaker 3: comparable triple A of a CLO and you look at

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Speaker 3: a triple A IG bond, they've both gone up, but

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Speaker 3: a CLO has gone up even further. They're floating rate

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Speaker 3: for one so based off so for a youur bore

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Speaker 3: and so far is past five percent right now. And

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Speaker 3: on top of that you get a spread. Now, the

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Speaker 3: reason why they pay more is because of the complexity.

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Speaker 3: You know what you're getting with an Apple bond, just

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Speaker 3: the debt of Apple here, it's a pool of one hundred,

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Speaker 3: two hundred, three hundred leverage loans and because of that

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Speaker 3: you do get an extra spread. So if you're interested

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Speaker 3: in a triple A with high yield.

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Speaker 1: Then you go into a CLO complexity. That's that's always

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Speaker 1: been a problem in the past. You know, the most complex,

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Speaker 1: least transparent markets to where they trable usually starts. How

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Speaker 1: worried should we be about this kind of structured product

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Speaker 1: right now? Is there trouble brewing with all of this

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Speaker 1: repackaging of risky loans, and particularly at the time when

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Speaker 1: you know the economy is slowing, rates are going up,

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Speaker 1: these companies are going to be struggling to pay back

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Speaker 1: at some point right.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting you mentioned that, James, because in the past,

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Speaker 3: no less than the Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, the Bank

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Speaker 3: of England, the IMF has highlighted and flagged COLO as

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Speaker 3: a possible area of systemic risk. And that not only

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Speaker 3: that a problem in the leverage loan a CLO market

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Speaker 3: could also transfer on and and destabilize the financial system.

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Speaker 3: So it is an area of risk. So regulators are

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Speaker 3: tracking it very carefully. They have so far performed well.

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Speaker 3: But if defaults spike up much higher and recoveries which

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Speaker 3: is what investors get when a loan goes into bankruptcy,

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Speaker 3: is significantly lower, then they could be an area of worry.

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Speaker 3: As of yet, there is no hint that it's problems

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Speaker 3: are happening, but it might. We never know.

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Speaker 2: We never know.

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Speaker 1: And the flip side, of course, is that you've mentioned

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Speaker 1: the regulators and they're constantly throwing stones at this market

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Speaker 1: and saying, you know, it's going to blow up, it's

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Speaker 1: going to get us into trouble. But it never it

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Speaker 1: never has.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it never has. That's the thing. So you have history,

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Speaker 3: but you know history can only point to a future,

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Speaker 3: and so for so much the market is constantly changing

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Speaker 3: and evolving. So history is a good guy, but it

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Speaker 3: is not a perfect eye.

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Speaker 1: So leverage loans on the on the underlying side, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned a bit about defaults. I still think that we're

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Speaker 1: underestimating them, given you know, the pressures from lower earnings

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Speaker 1: and much much higher rates. You know, rates just jumped

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Speaker 1: faster and more than anyone was expecting. That has to

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Speaker 1: lead to some problems, right, I mean we have to

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Speaker 1: think about losses and leverage loans at some point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So bankruptcys have hit a more than a decade

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Speaker 3: high right now, and we're seeing more companies go and

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Speaker 3: all companies that like sort of what we used to

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Speaker 3: call zombie companies have layered on dead and use debt

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Speaker 3: to keep going. They're probably gonna go bus is their

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Speaker 3: time to actually sort of flush out the system. But

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Speaker 3: still defaults are way below historical norms, so it's anticipated

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Speaker 3: and we'll oh very much depend on the course of

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Speaker 3: trajectory of the economy. There's a lot of people who

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Speaker 3: think now that the US is going to avoid a

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Speaker 3: big recession. If we do that, then there's gonna be

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Speaker 3: less stress. If we have a protracted recession because of

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Speaker 3: raid hikes and the economy contracts, and we will have

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Speaker 3: a much bigger problem. So it's very much dependent on

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Speaker 3: the Federal reserve, inflation and whether we go into a

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Speaker 3: recession or not, both in Europe and in the US.

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Speaker 1: So just to go back to this sort of one

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Speaker 1: key subject of CLO resets, as you say, it kind

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Speaker 1: of shows that credit conditions are getting easier.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: On the one hand, I'd be interested in your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on whether this is a global phenomenon, I mean beyond

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Speaker 1: just you know, the US, is it happening elsewhere? And

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Speaker 1: then secondly, is it an all clear signal? Should we

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Speaker 1: just breathe a big sigh of relief that the credit

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Speaker 1: markets aren't going to blow up and everything's just going

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Speaker 1: to get better from here.

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Speaker 3: So the anticipation is it's happened in the US and

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Speaker 3: then it probably will happen in Europe about six months time.

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Speaker 3: So these CLO resets have what's called a non call

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Speaker 3: to protect bond investors, So you can't do these resets

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Speaker 3: for a period of time, usually a year and in

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Speaker 3: Europe a year and a half. And so for the

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Speaker 3: for the type of deal that makes sense to do

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Speaker 3: a reset, you'll probably see them later in Europe. And

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Speaker 3: that's the point that it's healed from last year. So

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Speaker 3: the second half of last year things were tighter and

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Speaker 3: worse and things have improved, but it's not healed from

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Speaker 3: the beginning of last year or pre Ukraine attack, I

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Speaker 3: mean an attack on Ukraine, or before the raid hikes

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Speaker 3: and before inflation really soared. So no, there's still a

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Speaker 3: ways to go, and it might be a while before

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Speaker 3: we get to that period where money as easy and

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Speaker 3: credit condition as easy as it works before. But perhaps

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Speaker 3: you could say it maybe those conditions were too easy,

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Speaker 3: in which we shouldn't go back to them.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of what this signals. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not an all clear. We're not out of the woods.

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Speaker 3: Are Oh absolutely not. It's not absolutely not an all

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Speaker 3: clear signal. It's just a hint that some things are improving.

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Speaker 1: So too early to break out the champagne way too early.

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Speaker 1: So before we talked to Stefan Kobchev of Bloomberg Intelligence,

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Speaker 1: what's the next big story to watch here on your beat, Lisa,

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Speaker 1: I mean to expect a big revival in leverage loan

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Speaker 1: issuance in September. Is there going to be some other

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Speaker 1: big trend that you're looking at?

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Speaker 3: So we are hearing from PE sources and from M

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Speaker 3: and A bankers that a small pipeline is developing, so

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Speaker 3: we might see more M and A issuance coming up.

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Speaker 3: And the lever's landmark is very much driven by M

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Speaker 3: and A and LBO issuance. But as of VIAT the pipeline,

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Speaker 3: it's July now, and for for the pipeline to see

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Speaker 3: a big issue in boost in September, it already already

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Speaker 3: needs to be here. So I don't think we're going

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Speaker 3: to see a big issuance burst in September, but perhaps

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Speaker 3: later in the year we might see a moderate pickup

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Speaker 3: great stuff.

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Speaker 1: Lisa Lee from Bloomberg News, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You can read all of Lisa's scoops on the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: terminal and of course at Bloomberg dot com. So, as

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Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, shipping is a massive global business that's

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Speaker 1: done very well over the last few years, but it's

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Speaker 1: really hitting a wall right now, and to walk us

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Speaker 1: through it, we're very pleased to have with us Stefan Kochef,

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Speaker 1: who covers the sector for Bloomberg Intelligence based in London.

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Speaker 1: How's it going, Stefan?

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Speaker 2: Very well, Jane, thank you. So what's the.

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Speaker 1: Latest from container shipping company, Stefan? How are they doing well?

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Speaker 2: Container shipping companies have in the last three years. So

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Speaker 2: during the pandemic, people shifted from spending from services to

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Speaker 2: buying more goods online, So a big increase in demand

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Speaker 2: for container shipping during the pandemic, which led to container

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Speaker 2: shipping companies charging five to six times more for bringing

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Speaker 2: a container box from China to let's say Long Beach

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Speaker 2: in the US or Rotterdam here in Europe. So if

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Speaker 2: you fast forward to today, if freight rates are down

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Speaker 2: and are nearing pre pandemic levels, and looks like metrics

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Speaker 2: in the sector are set to deteriorate very quickly in

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Speaker 2: the coming quarters. So historically this has been a very

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Speaker 2: hotil cyclical and competitive industry, and we believe this deteriorating

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Speaker 2: outlook may not be fully reflected yet in the bond

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Speaker 2: markets that we follow.

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Speaker 1: So how come companies were able to charge six times

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Speaker 1: the pre pandemic prices and that sounds inflationary? Can you

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Speaker 1: break that down for us?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Very inflation indeed, well on the supply side only

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Speaker 2: it's mainly about supplying demound to be honest. And the

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Speaker 2: supply side of things, there is about six thousand container

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Speaker 2: ships in the world, huge ships, by the way, the

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Speaker 2: size of a skyscraper like the Empire State Building in

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Speaker 2: New York, and it takes two to three years to

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Speaker 2: build a new ship in order to add capacity, so

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Speaker 2: very inelastic fixed capacity in the short term. And then

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Speaker 2: at the same time, on the demand side of the equation,

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Speaker 2: during the pandemic, suddenly all of us wanted to have

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Speaker 2: a new chair for our work from home setup, or

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Speaker 2: an extra monitor, maybe toys for our kids. And beyond

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Speaker 2: supplying demand, there was also a degree of boord, congestion,

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Speaker 2: worker shortages, COVID heartbreaks, etc. So if Ikea or Nike

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Speaker 2: or anyone else wanted their goods delivered quickly from Asia

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Speaker 2: to Europe or the US, they had to pay up

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Speaker 2: to secure capacity on the ships. So companies in the

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Speaker 2: sector transporting these containers were able to charge five six

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Speaker 2: times more during the pandemic, and some of the companies

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Speaker 2: we followed have had record profits, you know in terms

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Speaker 2: of EHBEIT down free cash flow in the last few years.

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Speaker 2: But the good news is that we are now back

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Speaker 2: to pre pandemic levels. So to give you some numbers,

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Speaker 2: shipping a forty food container from Asia to Europe cost

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Speaker 2: about one thousand to two thousand dollars pre pandemic, and

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Speaker 2: this went up to ten thousand dollars at the peak

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Speaker 2: of the pandemic and is now down to about fifteen

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars. But yes, companies in the sector do have

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Speaker 2: very strong balance sheets after three years of record revenues.

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Speaker 1: So what are they doing with all the money? I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're infecting a lot of m and A or some

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Speaker 1: debt reduction.

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Speaker 2: There has been some m and A, but not the

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Speaker 2: horizontal MNA. One could expect we have not seen major

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Speaker 2: consolidation in the industry, and this can be explained by

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Speaker 2: the fact that there are limited synergies in having more

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Speaker 2: container ships. So basically, instead of you know, buying a competitor,

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Speaker 2: you could just go and order more ships to be

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Speaker 2: built for you. So instead, container shipping companies with all

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Speaker 2: the cash generated, they have been diversifying their revenue streams

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Speaker 2: away from containers, so by buying logistical companies for last

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Speaker 2: mad deliveries, or investing in planes to offer air cargo,

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Speaker 2: buying some software companies, etc. But overall small ballt on acquisitions.

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Speaker 2: There has been some debt reduction and dividend distribution. But

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Speaker 2: I think the key takeaways that shipping companies are well

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Speaker 2: aware of the cyclicality of the industry and they want

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Speaker 2: to be more prudent as the cycle is turning and

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Speaker 2: outlook is already worsening quite quickly in the industry.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a bit about what changed the me. Why

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Speaker 1: are you more negative on the outlook generally for the industry.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's again going back to supply and demand.

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Speaker 2: So the big driver for me is the demand side

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Speaker 2: of the equation. High inflation rates macroeconomic volatility, I mean

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Speaker 2: lower disposable incomes. These are worries for all of us

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Speaker 2: these days. Equally, as economies have reopened, people want to

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Speaker 2: travel again and go visit family members in other countries,

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Speaker 2: maybe as opposed to buying yet another piece of furniture

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Speaker 2: for their living room. So weaker demand for finished goods

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Speaker 2: is key, But the supply side of the equation is

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Speaker 2: also normalizing. So what container shipping companies have done with

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Speaker 2: some of the record profits from the pandemic is to

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Speaker 2: go and order new ships, thus increasing the actual available capacity.

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Speaker 2: And usually newer ships are bigger and are more cost efficient,

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Speaker 2: so everybody needs those ships in a very competitive environment.

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Speaker 2: So overall, weaker demand for shipping services and increased supply

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Speaker 2: of ships, and we already see a bit of a

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Speaker 2: price war in the industry going on at the moment.

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Speaker 2: So good news for us and consumers, and bad news

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Speaker 2: for the companies in the sector.

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Speaker 1: We believe, okay, probably the big guys will be okay,

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Speaker 1: but there must be some smaller companies that maybe weren't

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Speaker 1: so ready for the downturn, and you know, our risk

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Speaker 1: of distress or you know, even default in the worst

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Speaker 1: case when do you expect that in this industry?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, James, you're right. The industry is extremely fragmented. So

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Speaker 2: maybe the top three players have about fifteen percent market

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Speaker 2: share each and then there's a huge tale of around

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Speaker 2: fifty percent or half of the companies operating an industry

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Speaker 2: have under one percent market share. So indeed, the smaller

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Speaker 2: companies may be most at risk, so those ones may

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Speaker 2: feel the pain first. But that being said, even if

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Speaker 2: the bigger players that you know investors are more familiar with,

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Speaker 2: such as mrsk or Hapagloyd, maybe they're okay in the

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Speaker 2: short term, but this doesn't mean that there won't be

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Speaker 2: any volatility in terms of especially the bonds that we

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Speaker 2: follow here on the credit side of our research analysis.

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Speaker 1: Are there any names particularly do you worry about any

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Speaker 1: companies that are struggling techne hard.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's maybe it's important to mention the

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Speaker 2: actual volatility of the industry. So one of the companies

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Speaker 2: we we cover CMA CGM, a French container shipping company.

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Speaker 2: They've had their rating credit ratings at S and T

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Speaker 2: go from triple C plus to double B plus, so

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Speaker 2: a six notch upgrade in the last ten years. Cycle

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Speaker 2: so it looks like, you know, we are past the

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Speaker 2: peak of the cycle and coming quickly in the opposite direction.

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Speaker 2: So we haven't seen any downgrades yet, but we've already

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Speaker 2: seen earlier this week ZIM, which is a number number

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Speaker 2: ten player in the industry, had you know, to lower

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Speaker 2: its guidance for twenty twenty three, So you know, a

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Speaker 2: few cracks appearing already, and even the bigger players won't

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Speaker 2: be immune to to potential downgrades in outlook or maybe

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Speaker 2: credit ratings. So yeah, more of a cautious stance on

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Speaker 2: the whole industry.

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Speaker 1: I guess at this point, what are the takeaways more

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Speaker 1: broadly speaking seven for the credit markets or even for

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Speaker 1: the economy of what's gone well on him? It seems

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Speaker 1: that there was an unusual event that really inflated pricing

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Speaker 1: and gave these companies a massive windfall through the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: But are we kind of normalizing now back to prayer trend?

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Speaker 1: Is it just getting that to where we were, or

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Speaker 1: is you know, is there some of the some of

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Speaker 1: the takeaway from from the post pandemic shipping story that

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Speaker 1: you're looking at.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we if one looks at the balance

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Speaker 2: sheets and the financial statements of these companies today and

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Speaker 2: they will be amazed at how, you know, how little

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Speaker 2: debt they have and how great of a free cash

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Speaker 2: flow they have generated in the last twelve months. But

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Speaker 2: you know, looking at the annual report of twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: two doesn't give you the forward looking chair, especially in

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Speaker 2: the a cyclical industry such as the container shipping industry.

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Speaker 2: So I think then the key point is that historically,

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Speaker 2: shipping credits have always traded at a premium to other

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Speaker 2: industrial names, which is something we don't see yet in

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Speaker 2: the credit markets. So for instance, Marska I was mentioning earlier,

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Speaker 2: a Danish company currently is one of the tighter names

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Speaker 2: in the triple B space, and a similar story for Hapagloid,

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Speaker 2: the German container shipping company, one of them tighter names

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Speaker 2: in the double B euro credit space. So overall, I

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Speaker 2: think credit valuations will be exposed to two weak or fundamentals,

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Speaker 2: especially in the second half of this year and next

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Speaker 2: year when we expect important deliveries of new ships, as

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Speaker 2: it takes two to three years to actually build a

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Speaker 2: new ship, so very interesting and potentially volatile times ahead

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Speaker 2: for the industry.

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Speaker 1: So the premium shipping gets over industrials in credit markets

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Speaker 1: that you think could be eroded, it could be lost.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, if we look back at at historical trends,

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Speaker 2: I mean the shipping industry in terms of credit spreads,

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Speaker 2: they have always traded at the premium, and now they're

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Speaker 2: trading tighter than than the rest of the market. So

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Speaker 2: it looks like, you know, it doesn't doesn't seem right,

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Speaker 2: but then it is explained by the very strong balance

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Speaker 2: sheet and the very strong cashboard generation in the in

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Speaker 2: the last couple of years. But maybe it won't. It

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Speaker 2: won't last.

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Speaker 1: So maybe instead of trading tight, they're going to be

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Speaker 1: trading flat or maybe even wider to the to the industrial. Okay, interesting, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So one one last question stevan view on ESG, which

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Speaker 1: is the big hot topic at the moment. These big ships,

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Speaker 1: they burn a ton of diesel to move all these

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Speaker 1: heavy containers around. You know they must be polluting. What's

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Speaker 1: the industry's answer to reducing CO two emissions?

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Speaker 2: Well, the shipping represents about three percent of worldwide CO

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Speaker 2: two emissions, but it actually also transports about seventy to

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Speaker 2: eighty percent of finished goods worldwide. So in terms of

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Speaker 2: part ton of goods transported. It has actually a rather

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Speaker 2: low COEO two emission if we look at other logistical companies.

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Speaker 2: But the industry is still polluting a lot, obviously, and

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Speaker 2: I think it all comes down to green fuel availability.

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Speaker 2: Let's say, when it comes to batteries, it's very easy

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Speaker 2: to electrify a small scooter or even a car, but

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Speaker 2: when it comes to a truck or something much heavier,

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Speaker 2: you all of a sudden need bigger batteries and heavier batteries,

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Speaker 2: and it's not yet a viable solution. The technology is

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Speaker 2: not there in terms of batteries. And then if you

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Speaker 2: look at you know, biomethan or biogas, which are very

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Speaker 2: promising hydrogen as well, potentially, but we don't know yet

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Speaker 2: which will be the green fuel of the future, especially

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Speaker 2: for those big, huge content inner ships. And also the

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Speaker 2: shipping industry will have to compete with the aviation industry

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Speaker 2: and tracking industry for those green fuels. But I think

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Speaker 2: the what's great is that the industry has a clear standards,

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Speaker 2: clear guidance to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to zero by

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Speaker 2: twenty to fifty and we've already seen the bigger players

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Speaker 2: out there ordering some dual fuel ships, meaning that those

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Speaker 2: ships can run on traditional fuels and also biofuels, which

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Speaker 2: reduce you two emissions by around seventy percent currently. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: so the industry is slowly but surely moving or sailing,

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Speaker 2: i should say, towards a greener future.

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much. Stefan Kovichev of Bloomberg Intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, James.

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Speaker 1: You can read all of his great analysis on the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Terminal to check it out and hope to see

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Speaker 1: you back on the show soon. Stefan, thank you, and

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Speaker 1: thanks again to Lisa Lee from Bloomberg News. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for having me read all of her great

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Speaker 1: credit scoops on the Terminal and at Bloomberg dot Com.

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Speaker 1: I'm James Crumbie. It's been a pleasure having you join

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Speaker 1: us again next week on the Credit Edge.