WEBVTT - Denial to Delay: How the Fossil Fuel Industry Rebranded an Oil Production Technique as a "Climate Solution" and Got Taxpayers to Foot the Bill 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. We are still 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:09.959 working on this series I mentioned before, Denial to Delay, 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:14.040 focused on the false solutions that fossil fuel companies are 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:20.639 proposing to the climate crisis. We've talked about LNG, We've 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:24.720 talked about the role that management consultancies play in pushing 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:28.840 false solutions like carbon capture or hydrogen. Today we're going 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.960 to talk about carbon capture. I've been working on a 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.479 story about carbon capture for the last couple months that 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:40.040 we are co publishing with Vox, and I gotta say 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:42.839 it's kind of made my head explode. It's one of 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.240 those things where I kept looking at it and thinking 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.239 it can't possibly be as much of a scam as 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.559 it seems like it is, and then every single expert 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:55.440 I would talk to would make me feel like it 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.480 was even more of a scam. That's definitely true of 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.720 the person, and you're going to hear from today Carolyn Raffensberger, 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.640 who is an environmental lawyer and the executive director of 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.760 the Science and Environmental Health Network. Carolyn introduced me to 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.920 a bunch of experts, but talking to her was a 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.640 great way to kind of get overall context on how 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.040 exactly we got to where we're at with carbon capture, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.479 Why it's been such a focus as a climate solution 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.480 when even in the best case scenario, which is nowhere 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.959 near our reality, it could only ever help with about 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.840 two percent of global emissions, and yet we're dumping billions 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:40.039 and billions of taxpayer dollars into it. Why how did 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.920 we get here and what role did oil companies play 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.800 in all of it. One thing that has suddenly made 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:50.000 fossil fuel companies very interested in carbon capture over the 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:54.360 last few years is the forty five Q tax credit. 0:01:54.960 --> 0:02:01.960 This pays companies for capturing and storing two. It started 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.240 out in two thousand and eight, paying ten dollars for 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:10.480 every metric ton of carbon sequestered. In twenty eighteen, that 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:15.840 number increased to fifty dollars, and the Inflation Reduction Act 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.240 passed in twenty twenty two bumped it up to eighty 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.880 five dollars per metric ton. That increase was negotiated by 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.600 Senator Joe Manchin. It was one of several very controversial 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.440 suggestions he made when negotiating with the Biden administration over 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.720 their Build Back Better Bill, the result of which became 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:41.240 the Inflation Reduction Act. There's no cap on the amount 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.400 of tax credits a company can claim under forty five Q. 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:49.360 The amount of stored and sequestered carbon is entirely self reported, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.880 and there's very little verification process. One expert I talked 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.440 to is that it's like the opposite of a carbon tax. 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.800 We're actually paying companies to produce more carbon. We've turned 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.079 carbon into a commodity. We're going to get into all 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:13.480 of that and more after this quick break. I want 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:18.600 to ask you about forty five Q in particular and 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.240 your thoughts on how much it benefits the industry. 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.560 The fact of the matter is that CO two as 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:32.280 the best solvent for tertiary extraction of oil. And if 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:36.200 you've got an almost depleted well, there's still oil in 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.120 the ground. You just can't get it out through the 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.240 usual means. But you got that hole in the ground, 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.520 and you've got a stranded asset knowing that it's there, 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.040 and if you just had CO two you could get 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.760 you could keep this well going for another X number 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.000 of years, you know, another twenty years, another thirty years. 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:59.840 That's a lot of quarterly report money. And so they 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.200 and knew that CO two was a good substance, a 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:09.600 good solvent for tertiary extraction of oil, but they didn't 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:14.240 have a supply, and along comes climate, and you know, 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.480 so if you capture CO two, And they started doing 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.520 carbon capture decades ago, a couple of decades ago and 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.159 realized it didn't work very well and it's very expensive. 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.039 But the CO two, if you've got you know, you 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:32.320 can get a lot of CO two that would keep 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:36.880 that fossil fuel industry going a long time. So they 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.440 cooked up the scheme to claim that it's a climate solution, 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.880 but oh my gosh, it just happens to provide a 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:53.000 steady supply of this incredible solvent that's expensive to collect 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.560 and then you know, move around the globe. And so 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:01.640 this is an ideal scheme where they can claim climate 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.240 solution even though we know that it just adds more 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.440 CO to to the environment and er is the absolute 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:15.880 worst idea if you're talking about climate. But they don't 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.280 need it in a steady flow, so they're going to 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.400 need it in kind of episodic quantities, and so we're 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.280 better than to claim to store it underground. And if 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:31.400 you can store it underground near old oil wells, how 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.800 much the better. And if you can claim that you're 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.640 storing it in the old oil wells and oh my gosh, 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.600 you just happen to get more oil out of it. 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.800 This is a win wind for the fossil fuel industry. 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.320 You get to keep polluting and drilling more, getting more oil, 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.080 not drilling but extracting more oil, and you have the 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.760 public pay for the CO two and then you get 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.479 more money for the oil. This is an extraordinary thing 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.320 you can do. You get to sell the say Sanol, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.120 at a higher price because it's quote carbon neutral or 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.720 whatever else they're whatever they're else they're claiming about it. 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.239 You can sell it to California under their low carbon 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.159 fuel standard and get more money. You can create holding 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:20.320 markets for a sustainable aviation fuel. Is that this is 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.680 just an unbelievable pot of gold at the end of 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:26.240 the carbon capture rainbow. 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.640 I hadn't even thought about the sustainable aviation fuel connection, 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:31.799 to which is exploding right now. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.520 So look at what the Air Resources Board CARB is 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.760 claiming in California and what they're going to do with 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.640 the low carbon fuel standard. I had an LA times 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:47.400 op ed two years ago. I think about California, what 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.240 the low carbon fuel standard is going to do in 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:55.080 conjunction with carbon capture and storage for ethanol in Iowa. 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.400 So that are we're going to increase corn production in Iowa, 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.680 which means we're going to do everything from increase the 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:08.920 water consumption remarkably, and we're going to do everything from 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.440 increased the pesticide use, the fertilizer use, which means we're 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:14.560 going to add to the dead zone in the Gulf. 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:19.960 It goes on and on, and nobody's looking at all 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:24.920 of the sequella. The consequences that they're going to claim 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.520 are unintended and they're not going to consider in their 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:35.240 overall models and environmental impact statements. And anytime a scientist 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:40.560 comes out with, wait a minute, you're increasing pesticides and fertilizers, 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:45.680 which have their own greenhouse consequences, they're going to be 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.240 challenged on every level. Well, the model used didn't use, Well, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.480 your numbers are wrong, your outcome, the output of that 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.480 model is flawed. And so they're going to throw that 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.760 out and use industries model for showing that this is 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:03.320 actually a climate. And the other thing they do is. 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:08.840 They talk about what could be Yes, they do this 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.360 with carbon Like I just was talking to Excellent about 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.120 a carbon capture story, and all the language that they 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:18.080 use is like we plan to support. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.640 X number of emissions reductions or like we're aiming to 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:24.240 achieve blah blah blah. 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:25.680 Sough. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.640 Yeah, So every single claim you can go through and 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.840 look at the number of jobs that Summit is claiming 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.559 that they're going to have during construction, any of their claims, 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:38.800 any single claim how much water they're going to use, 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.240 which by the way, they don't know, and that will 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.600 be variable. But any claim that they make it's going 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.560 to be this much CO two, we won't need them, 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.320 and it don't make whatever it is they are lying, 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.840 and it's all these predictions which are no more valid 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:56.080 than a fortune cookie. 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.199 They have not they're always completely hedged in a way 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:05.199 that they can't be held accountable for lying or falsifying things. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.120 But right it's still misleading. 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:12.160 And the new lawsuit, Oh what state is it? Portant? 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.079 Is it King County in Oregon that is claiming this 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.560 is not an act of God, these extreme heat events 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.439 not an act of God. It's an act of Eccon. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.320 But the ability to claim God this is an act 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:29.480 of God for whatever the accident is. So everything is 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.960 a prediction, a plan, a promise, none of which comes true, 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.959 none of which comes true. If you look at any 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.000 of the predictions of any of the carbon capture facilities, 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.880 none of them are accurate. None of them are accurate 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.560 about how much storage is blow ground. You look at 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.000 all the problems that it could fill up much sooner. 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.679 But you've got this vast pipeline, and how would you 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.040 know that it is full if you're not measuring what's 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:03.559 coming back up. So every single place where they say 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:08.960 this is the outcome, I just assume they're lying. And 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.080 even if they're not lying, they don't have good evidence 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.920 to back up their claim, and they are never held accountable. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:17.920 At what point do you say, we are going to 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.560 pull your permit and we are going to stop giving 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:26.920 you funding. So the IRA reduced the amount of emissions 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:28.920 of CO two that they actually had to capture to 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:29.560 get the credit. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:31.199 Oh my god. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.800 So the whole thing is rigged to just line the 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.640 pockets and keep the fossil fuel industry going. It doesn't 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:40.600 matter if they got all the CO two or if 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.439 it stays underground. They got the oil through eor and 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.200 its predictions are correct, you know, I saw one recently 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.680 that said eor was going to extend the life of 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.000 oil by eighty four years. That's a big number, and 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.480 I think that the sad part is that it's not 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.000 clear to us that the architects of the IRA, you know, 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.680 the really good environmentalists, actually understood this. 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.000 I wanted to have you talk a little bit about 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.800 the issues with self reporting and verification for forty five 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:18.360 Q and just how much there is no verifiable climate 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.679 impact happening here. The first thing to know is that 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.199 this is a leaky material. CO two has a way 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.319 of moving through the air, of leaking through pipelines and 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.560 all of that. And because we have no cradle to 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.760 grave tracking, we have no way of actually knowing how 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:42.400 much is really being collected, and how much is really 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.880 hitting well head, and how much is really staying underground, 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.600 either through sequestration or enhanced oil recovery. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.040 We have no way of knowing. We have ways of 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.400 tracking hazardous materials. We have hazardous waste manifests, and so 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:02.120 every time the hazardous material just hands we track it. 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.640 We know who got it last, we know where it 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.120 ends up. We have really good information about volumes for 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.120 the most part. But with CO two there is no 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:18.160 tracking cradle to grave, and so it's just right for 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.640 both the financial fraud and the climate fraud, and so 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:22.320 we don't really know. 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.400 Can I also have you talk a little bit about 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:31.200 the safety issue and start moving this stuff around and 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:34.439 how we're sequestering it when it's actually being stored. 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.040 Well, those are two separate issues. The health effects are 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:43.679 because CO two is a unique material. It has properties 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.680 for how it travels that it's heavier than ambient air, 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.760 and so it sinks down and can stay together and move. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.000 So if your CO two pipeline goes through your neighborhood 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.400 and you live in a basement, that CO two is 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.480 as likely to go down into your apartment rather than 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:08.920 up to the top floors. So it moves in unique ways. 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.600 And it acidifies water. And if you think about how 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.120 much of your body is made out of water, your eyes, 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.840 the mucous membranes in your nose, and your mouth, these 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:24.559 are all watery, aqueous. And just as it can acidify water, 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.400 it can acidify those parts of our body that it 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.280 comes in contact with. And we know that it's one 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.000 of the reasons the ocean is acidifying is because of 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:40.480 this unusual property of CO two meeting water forming carbonic acid. 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.920 Another property of CO two is that it is toxic 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:50.200 in that it has poisonous qualities, and then of course 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:55.280 it's an asphyxiant. We have very carefully calibrated mechanisms in 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:59.960 our body to get rid of CO two. We are 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:04.480 organisms designed to get rid of CO two because it 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:08.560 does sidify our bodies and because it can deprive us 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.080 of oxygen and suffocate you. It's not a pleasant death. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:17.520 We use CO two to euthanize animals and confined animal 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:22.240 feeding operations. So this is not a material that's conducive 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.080 to life, especially when we concentrate it. When we concentrate 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.560 it and put it through pipelines and compressor stations and 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:35.800 valves and all of those things, we are concentrating a 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:41.720 material that moves differently, that is toxic, that's ynysphyxiant, that 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.720 does nasty things to water with water when it meets water. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.880 So for all those reasons, it has health impacts that 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.800 are very different than oil and gas. So these are 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.880 not your grandmother's pipelines. They could be lethal. We talk 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.920 about the kill zone or a fatality zone. Around a 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.800 CO two pipeline. We don't talk about that with oil 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.600 and gas pipelines. So oil leaks out and it has 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.680 a limited range where it's going to flow. I might 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.840 be a fairly big area, but we don't start talking 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.760 about a fatality zone or a kill zone with an 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:24.840 oil pipeline. And so these are very unusual. And because 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.880 of the carbonic acid in a pipeline, if it meets water, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:34.120 CO two meets water, it's highly corrosive. So pipelines that 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:39.360 have CO two with impurities are more likely to leak 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.960 or rupture or have some other problem associated with them. 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:51.200 So all around, these are uniquely dangerous and underregulated. So 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.000 let's just say we knew that we could have all 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.800 the right metals, all the right ways to ship this 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:03.440 material somewhere and do it with one hundred percent safety. Well, 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.360 we know that we can't do that, and we don't 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:12.240 even have regulations promulgated by THEIMSA and finalized for CO 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:17.840 two pipelines. Following an accident in Starsha, Mississippi, where there 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.160 was an explosion of CO two and which caused a 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:26.000 lot of health problems in the population that was within 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.760 a farther away than you might think would be it 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:36.840 would experience a problem, and so the FISA, the Pipeline 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.800 and Hazardous Material Safety Administration, decided to look at why 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:46.400 that accident happened and to promulgate a new rule that 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:52.320 would actually regulate pipeline construction and CO two pipeline companies. 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.280 That rule is not final and we don't know when 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.320 it will be final It's been held up at omb 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.720 for some time. And yet a pipeline company in Iowa 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:10.720 called the Summit Carbon Solutions Pipeline has solicited permits in 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:16.360 multiple states and just been given a permit by the 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:22.280 Iowa Utilities Commission, And they gave permission even knowing that 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.720 the CO two pipeline rule had not been finalized and 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.200 that the company is not bound by it. Whatever the 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.640 rule will be, it's not going to be applied retroactively. 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.480 Now there's some things that will apply retroactively if there 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.520 are new emergency management plans or things like that, but 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:47.159 any construction requirements for materials or other things will not 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.639 be applied retroactively to Summit. So what we have is 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:55.720 a very hazardous material is underregulated. It's not well accounted 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.120 for when we move it through the system. And then 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.840 on top of that, we are not just creating a 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.800 straight through pipeline. We are creating a vast network of 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:12.760 pipelines of multiple sizes and therefore all these connections. So 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.760 we're going to be connecting pipelines. They're fairly small in 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.119 diameter two toess so it can range from four inches 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:24.240 to twenty four inches. But all of those connections, all 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:28.280 of those transitions between the collection of CO to the 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.240 compression of it, the putting it into the pipeline, then 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.359 moving it to a bigger pipeline, the moving it to 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.120 a smaller pipeline, whatever it might be. Well, I think 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.280 they're all going to go to a bigger pipeline as 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.280 it's going to have feeder pipelines into the main trunkline 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:48.160 of the pipeline. But every time you add another feeder line, 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.560 every time you add one that's the different dimension and 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:56.280 connect it to a larger pipeline and have all these 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:02.119 pump stations and this vast spider web of pipelines, you 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.399 add to the risk. So if you have a straight 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:10.720 shot pipeline that's uniform in size, that has the right 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:15.040 number of arrestors to stop these ductal these fractures that 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:19.240 can just unzip a pipeline. Given the nature of CO two, 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.639 you know we're in trouble. So I advocate preventing harm 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.560 that may happen if it's a preventable harm. So there's 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:32.040 no reason that we should be paying a polluter for 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:38.840 a known pollutant, a known unusual hazard. And then you know, 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:44.800 allowing them to claim land through eminent domain, seizing private land, 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:49.040 running it through communities with all of this complexity, and 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.480 most of these companies are new, they don't have experience 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:57.359 managing a pipeline, and all of the things that they say, 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.639 the assurances they give, we will have multiple generators, we 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.840 can stop this in seconds. We can do that's we 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.959 know from experience. That's not how real life operates. And 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:16.560 so this vast network of underregulated pipelines of new companies, 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:21.119 the complexity of this, the nature of the material all 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:26.360 mean that we are building in hazards that are going 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:31.320 to behave unpredictably, and then we are putting it somewhere 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:37.399 underground in inadequately characterized geologic formations. But we know what 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.080 we're looking for. We know what we want in an 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:46.280 underground a vault where it's never going to escape. But 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.719 most of the places that we are looking at putting 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:55.000 the material already have the cap rock which would be 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.400 required to hold it in place and keep it from 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.199 contaminating drinking water and all the other things that it 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:06.320 can do. But we've already punctured those caprocs in these 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:10.560 places with existing oil and gas wells. We don't even 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.440 know where all of them are. We have abandoned wells 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.560 littering the landscape. And we think we're going to put 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:22.040 CO two down in the underground, and then they're going 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.720 to you know, all the ways that CO two can 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.760 move up the well, leaky casing in a well. When 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.520 it's being shot down into the wall, it's endless. And 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.720 so all of their assurances about we've got this, don't worry, 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:44.360 go go shopping at Walmart our demeaning for people who 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.960 actually have studied this and know anything about the hazards 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.960 of CO two both as a climate threat, but then 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.640 when we concentrate it and shove it through pipelines as 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.959 a super critical liquid, we are asking for trouble. This 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.760 is sort of like giving a sixteen year old with 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.119 a known drug habit the keys to the Ferrari and 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.040 assuming they're going to stop, they're going to drive thirty 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:12.280 miles an hour and stop at every stop sign and 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:13.960 be home by eight pm. 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.720 Is it still true that PIMSA has not finalized its 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.040 its rules for CO two pipelines. 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:24.520 One of the things that's worth looking at is FIMSA overall. 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.919 So FIMSA manages hazardous materials, it's in their name. In 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:34.399 the accident in East Palestine, that's under fims's jurisdiction. So 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:38.360 the same entity that is supposed to be regulating those 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:43.159 trains with hazard's materials is also regulating pipelines with hazardous 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.880 materials like CO two. So FIMSA itself is an interesting 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.560 agency and what authority it has or does not have. 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.800 It is one of the agencies that is most wholly 0:22:54.800 --> 0:23:01.080 captured by industry. Their regulations are often directly taken from industry, 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:07.439 just lifted from industry recommendations and incorporated by reference. It 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:12.159 is a wholly captured entity. And yet they recognized the 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.920 CO two pipelines were unusually dangerous and underregulated, so they 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.879 drafted a regulation which we've not seen. It's currently at 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:26.920 omb and FIMSA has had its authority sorely limited by 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:31.959 companies that make it do two cost benefit analyzes. So 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:36.320 just getting a rule through the cost benefit analysis that 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:39.399 they have to do means that they are going to 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:42.560 air on the side of the industry. They are not 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:44.840 going to err on the side of the public. It's 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:47.680 just the way they're set up. It's what Congress, the 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:51.720 authority Congress has not given them, and the requirements they 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:56.400 put in place to make a rule as weak as possible. 0:23:56.680 --> 0:23:58.719 You know, it's supposed to benefit the economy. It's not 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:00.919 supposed to protect public health and safety as far as 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:04.800 we can tell. And that rule has now gone to 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:12.479 OMB and it's under Ohirah, the agency that reviews these rules, 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:15.480 and we thought it was going to come out somewhere 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:19.000 around March, and it has not been released. You can 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:23.080 go on their website and they have public meetings that 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:26.159 have been scheduled, meetings with members of the public. I 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:29.560 should be clear, not public meetings, but meetings with members 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:32.480 of the public, maybe industry. It might be the landowner 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:35.560 in Iowa. I don't know. I think they listed, but 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:38.920 I haven't gone and looked in the last week. And 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:42.840 the delay in this means that if they don't come 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:47.159 out with that rule soon the new administration, if we 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:51.200 have a change in administrations, could review that rule and 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:55.640 throw it out, start over again or not. So we 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:59.920 are in a logjam with that rule, and there's something 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.359 that are contingent on that rule passing. California has a 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:08.600 moratorium in part on CO two pipelines, not intrust sit sites, 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:13.720 but interstates sites and inter sites between sites and off 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:18.520 an industry's property. There's a moratorium on COO two pipelines 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:23.280 that was passed by the California legislature that prohibits any 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:26.400 of these pipelines, specifically the ones that go off site 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:32.440 until FILMS finalizes its rule. And Illinois has a similar 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:37.000 rule or two years. So Illinois just passed legislation that 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:41.879 also does that. And there are numerous jurisdictions in elsewhere 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:46.520 that are smaller, not state but county and jurisdictions and 0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:49.000 things like that that have also put in place a 0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:52.720 moratorium until they come out with a rule. So a 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:56.359 lot hinges on this. The question came before the Iowa 0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:59.919 Utilities Commission about whether they should wait for the rule, 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:02.320 and they decided not to, and they does not put 0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:07.119 in place of moratorium on their permit. So that's a 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:11.080 quick run through on safety. There's been a lot of 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:15.000 private interest money going into research focused on carbon capture 0:26:15.040 --> 0:26:17.920 and that has pushed things in this direction as well. 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:22.000 So all the ways that corporations can get the public 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:25.439 to fund them, and the carbon capture and storage is 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:28.520 a good case study for that. So if you start 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:32.560 with the tax credit on the federal level that carbon 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:36.920 capture and storage is going to garner going forward. That's 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:41.000 a huge amount of money. Huge and then you look 0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:43.640 at all of the other ways that this fits together. 0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:50.520 There's a vast economic structure that supports industry and business financially, 0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:55.000 and then on top of that, there's a huge economic 0:26:55.480 --> 0:26:58.119