1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. We are still 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: working on this series I mentioned before, Denial to Delay, 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: focused on the false solutions that fossil fuel companies are 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: proposing to the climate crisis. We've talked about LNG, We've 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: talked about the role that management consultancies play in pushing 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: false solutions like carbon capture or hydrogen. Today we're going 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: to talk about carbon capture. I've been working on a 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: story about carbon capture for the last couple months that 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: we are co publishing with Vox, and I gotta say 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: it's kind of made my head explode. It's one of 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: those things where I kept looking at it and thinking 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: it can't possibly be as much of a scam as 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: it seems like it is, and then every single expert 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: I would talk to would make me feel like it 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: was even more of a scam. That's definitely true of 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: the person, and you're going to hear from today Carolyn Raffensberger, 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: who is an environmental lawyer and the executive director of 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: the Science and Environmental Health Network. Carolyn introduced me to 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of experts, but talking to her was a 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: great way to kind of get overall context on how 21 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: exactly we got to where we're at with carbon capture, 22 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: Why it's been such a focus as a climate solution 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: when even in the best case scenario, which is nowhere 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: near our reality, it could only ever help with about 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: two percent of global emissions, and yet we're dumping billions 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: and billions of taxpayer dollars into it. Why how did 27 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: we get here and what role did oil companies play 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: in all of it. One thing that has suddenly made 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: fossil fuel companies very interested in carbon capture over the 30 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: last few years is the forty five Q tax credit. 31 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: This pays companies for capturing and storing two. It started 32 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: out in two thousand and eight, paying ten dollars for 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: every metric ton of carbon sequestered. In twenty eighteen, that 34 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: number increased to fifty dollars, and the Inflation Reduction Act 35 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: passed in twenty twenty two bumped it up to eighty 36 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: five dollars per metric ton. That increase was negotiated by 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: Senator Joe Manchin. It was one of several very controversial 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: suggestions he made when negotiating with the Biden administration over 39 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: their Build Back Better Bill, the result of which became 40 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act. There's no cap on the amount 41 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: of tax credits a company can claim under forty five Q. 42 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: The amount of stored and sequestered carbon is entirely self reported, 43 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: and there's very little verification process. One expert I talked 44 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: to is that it's like the opposite of a carbon tax. 45 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: We're actually paying companies to produce more carbon. We've turned 46 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: carbon into a commodity. We're going to get into all 47 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: of that and more after this quick break. I want 48 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: to ask you about forty five Q in particular and 49 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: your thoughts on how much it benefits the industry. 50 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: The fact of the matter is that CO two as 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: the best solvent for tertiary extraction of oil. And if 52 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: you've got an almost depleted well, there's still oil in 53 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: the ground. You just can't get it out through the 54 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: usual means. But you got that hole in the ground, 55 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: and you've got a stranded asset knowing that it's there, 56 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: and if you just had CO two you could get 57 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: you could keep this well going for another X number 58 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: of years, you know, another twenty years, another thirty years. 59 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: That's a lot of quarterly report money. And so they 60 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: and knew that CO two was a good substance, a 61 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: good solvent for tertiary extraction of oil, but they didn't 62 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: have a supply, and along comes climate, and you know, 63 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 2: so if you capture CO two, And they started doing 64 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: carbon capture decades ago, a couple of decades ago and 65 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: realized it didn't work very well and it's very expensive. 66 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 2: But the CO two, if you've got you know, you 67 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: can get a lot of CO two that would keep 68 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: that fossil fuel industry going a long time. So they 69 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: cooked up the scheme to claim that it's a climate solution, 70 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: but oh my gosh, it just happens to provide a 71 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: steady supply of this incredible solvent that's expensive to collect 72 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: and then you know, move around the globe. And so 73 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: this is an ideal scheme where they can claim climate 74 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: solution even though we know that it just adds more 75 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: CO to to the environment and er is the absolute 76 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: worst idea if you're talking about climate. But they don't 77 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: need it in a steady flow, so they're going to 78 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: need it in kind of episodic quantities, and so we're 79 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 2: better than to claim to store it underground. And if 80 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: you can store it underground near old oil wells, how 81 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: much the better. And if you can claim that you're 82 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: storing it in the old oil wells and oh my gosh, 83 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 2: you just happen to get more oil out of it. 84 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: This is a win wind for the fossil fuel industry. 85 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: You get to keep polluting and drilling more, getting more oil, 86 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: not drilling but extracting more oil, and you have the 87 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: public pay for the CO two and then you get 88 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 2: more money for the oil. This is an extraordinary thing 89 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: you can do. You get to sell the say Sanol, 90 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: at a higher price because it's quote carbon neutral or 91 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: whatever else they're whatever they're else they're claiming about it. 92 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 2: You can sell it to California under their low carbon 93 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 2: fuel standard and get more money. You can create holding 94 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: markets for a sustainable aviation fuel. Is that this is 95 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: just an unbelievable pot of gold at the end of 96 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: the carbon capture rainbow. 97 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought about the sustainable aviation fuel connection, 98 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 1: to which is exploding right now. 99 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: So look at what the Air Resources Board CARB is 100 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: claiming in California and what they're going to do with 101 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: the low carbon fuel standard. I had an LA times 102 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: op ed two years ago. I think about California, what 103 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: the low carbon fuel standard is going to do in 104 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: conjunction with carbon capture and storage for ethanol in Iowa. 105 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: So that are we're going to increase corn production in Iowa, 106 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: which means we're going to do everything from increase the 107 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: water consumption remarkably, and we're going to do everything from 108 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: increased the pesticide use, the fertilizer use, which means we're 109 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: going to add to the dead zone in the Gulf. 110 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: It goes on and on, and nobody's looking at all 111 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: of the sequella. The consequences that they're going to claim 112 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: are unintended and they're not going to consider in their 113 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: overall models and environmental impact statements. And anytime a scientist 114 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: comes out with, wait a minute, you're increasing pesticides and fertilizers, 115 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: which have their own greenhouse consequences, they're going to be 116 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: challenged on every level. Well, the model used didn't use, Well, 117 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: your numbers are wrong, your outcome, the output of that 118 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: model is flawed. And so they're going to throw that 119 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: out and use industries model for showing that this is 120 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: actually a climate. And the other thing they do is. 121 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 3: They talk about what could be Yes, they do this 122 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: with carbon Like I just was talking to Excellent about 123 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: a carbon capture story, and all the language that they 124 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 3: use is like we plan to support. 125 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: X number of emissions reductions or like we're aiming to 126 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: achieve blah blah blah. 127 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: Sough. 128 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, So every single claim you can go through and 129 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: look at the number of jobs that Summit is claiming 130 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 2: that they're going to have during construction, any of their claims, 131 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: any single claim how much water they're going to use, 132 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: which by the way, they don't know, and that will 133 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: be variable. But any claim that they make it's going 134 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: to be this much CO two, we won't need them, 135 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: and it don't make whatever it is they are lying, 136 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: and it's all these predictions which are no more valid 137 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: than a fortune cookie. 138 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 3: They have not they're always completely hedged in a way 139 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 3: that they can't be held accountable for lying or falsifying things. 140 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: But right it's still misleading. 141 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: And the new lawsuit, Oh what state is it? Portant? 142 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 2: Is it King County in Oregon that is claiming this 143 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: is not an act of God, these extreme heat events 144 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 2: not an act of God. It's an act of Eccon. 145 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: But the ability to claim God this is an act 146 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: of God for whatever the accident is. So everything is 147 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: a prediction, a plan, a promise, none of which comes true, 148 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 2: none of which comes true. If you look at any 149 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: of the predictions of any of the carbon capture facilities, 150 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: none of them are accurate. None of them are accurate 151 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: about how much storage is blow ground. You look at 152 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: all the problems that it could fill up much sooner. 153 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: But you've got this vast pipeline, and how would you 154 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: know that it is full if you're not measuring what's 155 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 2: coming back up. So every single place where they say 156 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: this is the outcome, I just assume they're lying. And 157 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: even if they're not lying, they don't have good evidence 158 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: to back up their claim, and they are never held accountable. 159 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: At what point do you say, we are going to 160 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: pull your permit and we are going to stop giving 161 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: you funding. So the IRA reduced the amount of emissions 162 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: of CO two that they actually had to capture to 163 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: get the credit. 164 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 165 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: So the whole thing is rigged to just line the 166 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: pockets and keep the fossil fuel industry going. It doesn't 167 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 2: matter if they got all the CO two or if 168 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 2: it stays underground. They got the oil through eor and 169 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: its predictions are correct, you know, I saw one recently 170 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 2: that said eor was going to extend the life of 171 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: oil by eighty four years. That's a big number, and 172 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: I think that the sad part is that it's not 173 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: clear to us that the architects of the IRA, you know, 174 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: the really good environmentalists, actually understood this. 175 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to have you talk a little bit about 176 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: the issues with self reporting and verification for forty five 177 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: Q and just how much there is no verifiable climate 178 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: impact happening here. The first thing to know is that 179 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: this is a leaky material. CO two has a way 180 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: of moving through the air, of leaking through pipelines and 181 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: all of that. And because we have no cradle to 182 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: grave tracking, we have no way of actually knowing how 183 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: much is really being collected, and how much is really 184 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: hitting well head, and how much is really staying underground, 185 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: either through sequestration or enhanced oil recovery. 186 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: We have no way of knowing. We have ways of 187 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: tracking hazardous materials. We have hazardous waste manifests, and so 188 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: every time the hazardous material just hands we track it. 189 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: We know who got it last, we know where it 190 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: ends up. We have really good information about volumes for 191 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: the most part. But with CO two there is no 192 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: tracking cradle to grave, and so it's just right for 193 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: both the financial fraud and the climate fraud, and so 194 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: we don't really know. 195 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: Can I also have you talk a little bit about 196 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: the safety issue and start moving this stuff around and 197 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: how we're sequestering it when it's actually being stored. 198 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: Well, those are two separate issues. The health effects are 199 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 2: because CO two is a unique material. It has properties 200 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: for how it travels that it's heavier than ambient air, 201 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: and so it sinks down and can stay together and move. 202 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: So if your CO two pipeline goes through your neighborhood 203 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: and you live in a basement, that CO two is 204 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: as likely to go down into your apartment rather than 205 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: up to the top floors. So it moves in unique ways. 206 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: And it acidifies water. And if you think about how 207 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: much of your body is made out of water, your eyes, 208 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: the mucous membranes in your nose, and your mouth, these 209 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 2: are all watery, aqueous. And just as it can acidify water, 210 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: it can acidify those parts of our body that it 211 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: comes in contact with. And we know that it's one 212 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: of the reasons the ocean is acidifying is because of 213 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: this unusual property of CO two meeting water forming carbonic acid. 214 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: Another property of CO two is that it is toxic 215 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 2: in that it has poisonous qualities, and then of course 216 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: it's an asphyxiant. We have very carefully calibrated mechanisms in 217 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: our body to get rid of CO two. We are 218 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: organisms designed to get rid of CO two because it 219 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 2: does sidify our bodies and because it can deprive us 220 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: of oxygen and suffocate you. It's not a pleasant death. 221 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: We use CO two to euthanize animals and confined animal 222 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: feeding operations. So this is not a material that's conducive 223 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: to life, especially when we concentrate it. When we concentrate 224 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: it and put it through pipelines and compressor stations and 225 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: valves and all of those things, we are concentrating a 226 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: material that moves differently, that is toxic, that's ynysphyxiant, that 227 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: does nasty things to water with water when it meets water. 228 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: So for all those reasons, it has health impacts that 229 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: are very different than oil and gas. So these are 230 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: not your grandmother's pipelines. They could be lethal. We talk 231 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: about the kill zone or a fatality zone. Around a 232 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: CO two pipeline. We don't talk about that with oil 233 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: and gas pipelines. So oil leaks out and it has 234 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: a limited range where it's going to flow. I might 235 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: be a fairly big area, but we don't start talking 236 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: about a fatality zone or a kill zone with an 237 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: oil pipeline. And so these are very unusual. And because 238 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: of the carbonic acid in a pipeline, if it meets water, 239 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: CO two meets water, it's highly corrosive. So pipelines that 240 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: have CO two with impurities are more likely to leak 241 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: or rupture or have some other problem associated with them. 242 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: So all around, these are uniquely dangerous and underregulated. So 243 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: let's just say we knew that we could have all 244 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: the right metals, all the right ways to ship this 245 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: material somewhere and do it with one hundred percent safety. Well, 246 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: we know that we can't do that, and we don't 247 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: even have regulations promulgated by THEIMSA and finalized for CO 248 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: two pipelines. Following an accident in Starsha, Mississippi, where there 249 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: was an explosion of CO two and which caused a 250 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: lot of health problems in the population that was within 251 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: a farther away than you might think would be it 252 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: would experience a problem, and so the FISA, the Pipeline 253 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 2: and Hazardous Material Safety Administration, decided to look at why 254 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: that accident happened and to promulgate a new rule that 255 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: would actually regulate pipeline construction and CO two pipeline companies. 256 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 2: That rule is not final and we don't know when 257 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: it will be final It's been held up at omb 258 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: for some time. And yet a pipeline company in Iowa 259 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 2: called the Summit Carbon Solutions Pipeline has solicited permits in 260 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 2: multiple states and just been given a permit by the 261 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 2: Iowa Utilities Commission, And they gave permission even knowing that 262 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 2: the CO two pipeline rule had not been finalized and 263 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 2: that the company is not bound by it. Whatever the 264 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: rule will be, it's not going to be applied retroactively. 265 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: Now there's some things that will apply retroactively if there 266 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: are new emergency management plans or things like that, but 267 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 2: any construction requirements for materials or other things will not 268 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 2: be applied retroactively to Summit. So what we have is 269 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: a very hazardous material is underregulated. It's not well accounted 270 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 2: for when we move it through the system. And then 271 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 2: on top of that, we are not just creating a 272 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: straight through pipeline. We are creating a vast network of 273 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 2: pipelines of multiple sizes and therefore all these connections. So 274 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: we're going to be connecting pipelines. They're fairly small in 275 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: diameter two toess so it can range from four inches 276 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: to twenty four inches. But all of those connections, all 277 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: of those transitions between the collection of CO to the 278 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 2: compression of it, the putting it into the pipeline, then 279 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: moving it to a bigger pipeline, the moving it to 280 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 2: a smaller pipeline, whatever it might be. Well, I think 281 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: they're all going to go to a bigger pipeline as 282 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: it's going to have feeder pipelines into the main trunkline 283 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 2: of the pipeline. But every time you add another feeder line, 284 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: every time you add one that's the different dimension and 285 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: connect it to a larger pipeline and have all these 286 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 2: pump stations and this vast spider web of pipelines, you 287 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: add to the risk. So if you have a straight 288 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: shot pipeline that's uniform in size, that has the right 289 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: number of arrestors to stop these ductal these fractures that 290 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: can just unzip a pipeline. Given the nature of CO two, 291 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 2: you know we're in trouble. So I advocate preventing harm 292 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: that may happen if it's a preventable harm. So there's 293 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: no reason that we should be paying a polluter for 294 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 2: a known pollutant, a known unusual hazard. And then you know, 295 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: allowing them to claim land through eminent domain, seizing private land, 296 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: running it through communities with all of this complexity, and 297 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: most of these companies are new, they don't have experience 298 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 2: managing a pipeline, and all of the things that they say, 299 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: the assurances they give, we will have multiple generators, we 300 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: can stop this in seconds. We can do that's we 301 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 2: know from experience. That's not how real life operates. And 302 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: so this vast network of underregulated pipelines of new companies, 303 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 2: the complexity of this, the nature of the material all 304 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: mean that we are building in hazards that are going 305 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: to behave unpredictably, and then we are putting it somewhere 306 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: underground in inadequately characterized geologic formations. But we know what 307 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: we're looking for. We know what we want in an 308 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 2: underground a vault where it's never going to escape. But 309 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 2: most of the places that we are looking at putting 310 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: the material already have the cap rock which would be 311 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 2: required to hold it in place and keep it from 312 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 2: contaminating drinking water and all the other things that it 313 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 2: can do. But we've already punctured those caprocs in these 314 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: places with existing oil and gas wells. We don't even 315 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: know where all of them are. We have abandoned wells 316 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 2: littering the landscape. And we think we're going to put 317 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: CO two down in the underground, and then they're going 318 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: to you know, all the ways that CO two can 319 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: move up the well, leaky casing in a well. When 320 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: it's being shot down into the wall, it's endless. And 321 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: so all of their assurances about we've got this, don't worry, 322 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 2: go go shopping at Walmart our demeaning for people who 323 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: actually have studied this and know anything about the hazards 324 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 2: of CO two both as a climate threat, but then 325 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 2: when we concentrate it and shove it through pipelines as 326 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 2: a super critical liquid, we are asking for trouble. This 327 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: is sort of like giving a sixteen year old with 328 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 2: a known drug habit the keys to the Ferrari and 329 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: assuming they're going to stop, they're going to drive thirty 330 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: miles an hour and stop at every stop sign and 331 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: be home by eight pm. 332 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: Is it still true that PIMSA has not finalized its 333 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: its rules for CO two pipelines. 334 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: One of the things that's worth looking at is FIMSA overall. 335 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 2: So FIMSA manages hazardous materials, it's in their name. In 336 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 2: the accident in East Palestine, that's under fims's jurisdiction. So 337 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 2: the same entity that is supposed to be regulating those 338 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: trains with hazard's materials is also regulating pipelines with hazardous 339 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 2: materials like CO two. So FIMSA itself is an interesting 340 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: agency and what authority it has or does not have. 341 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: It is one of the agencies that is most wholly 342 00:22:54,800 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: captured by industry. Their regulations are often directly taken from industry, 343 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: just lifted from industry recommendations and incorporated by reference. It 344 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 2: is a wholly captured entity. And yet they recognized the 345 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 2: CO two pipelines were unusually dangerous and underregulated, so they 346 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 2: drafted a regulation which we've not seen. It's currently at 347 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: omb and FIMSA has had its authority sorely limited by 348 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,959 Speaker 2: companies that make it do two cost benefit analyzes. So 349 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: just getting a rule through the cost benefit analysis that 350 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: they have to do means that they are going to 351 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: air on the side of the industry. They are not 352 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: going to err on the side of the public. It's 353 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 2: just the way they're set up. It's what Congress, the 354 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: authority Congress has not given them, and the requirements they 355 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 2: put in place to make a rule as weak as possible. 356 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 2: You know, it's supposed to benefit the economy. It's not 357 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 2: supposed to protect public health and safety as far as 358 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 2: we can tell. And that rule has now gone to 359 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 2: OMB and it's under Ohirah, the agency that reviews these rules, 360 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: and we thought it was going to come out somewhere 361 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: around March, and it has not been released. You can 362 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: go on their website and they have public meetings that 363 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 2: have been scheduled, meetings with members of the public. I 364 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 2: should be clear, not public meetings, but meetings with members 365 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: of the public, maybe industry. It might be the landowner 366 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: in Iowa. I don't know. I think they listed, but 367 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: I haven't gone and looked in the last week. And 368 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: the delay in this means that if they don't come 369 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 2: out with that rule soon the new administration, if we 370 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: have a change in administrations, could review that rule and 371 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 2: throw it out, start over again or not. So we 372 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 2: are in a logjam with that rule, and there's something 373 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 2: that are contingent on that rule passing. California has a 374 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: moratorium in part on CO two pipelines, not intrust sit sites, 375 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: but interstates sites and inter sites between sites and off 376 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: an industry's property. There's a moratorium on COO two pipelines 377 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: that was passed by the California legislature that prohibits any 378 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: of these pipelines, specifically the ones that go off site 379 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 2: until FILMS finalizes its rule. And Illinois has a similar 380 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: rule or two years. So Illinois just passed legislation that 381 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: also does that. And there are numerous jurisdictions in elsewhere 382 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: that are smaller, not state but county and jurisdictions and 383 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: things like that that have also put in place a 384 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: moratorium until they come out with a rule. So a 385 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: lot hinges on this. The question came before the Iowa 386 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 2: Utilities Commission about whether they should wait for the rule, 387 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: and they decided not to, and they does not put 388 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 2: in place of moratorium on their permit. So that's a 389 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: quick run through on safety. There's been a lot of 390 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: private interest money going into research focused on carbon capture 391 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 2: and that has pushed things in this direction as well. 392 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: So all the ways that corporations can get the public 393 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 2: to fund them, and the carbon capture and storage is 394 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: a good case study for that. So if you start 395 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: with the tax credit on the federal level that carbon 396 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 2: capture and storage is going to garner going forward. That's 397 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: a huge amount of money. Huge and then you look 398 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 2: at all of the other ways that this fits together. 399 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: There's a vast economic structure that supports industry and business financially, 400 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: and then on top of that, there's a huge economic 401 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: infrastructure that's built on top of the forty five Q 402 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: tax credits. So everything from the carbon credits that you 403 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 2: can buy and sell, there's futures, markets, derivatives, all of 404 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 2: these things that are being predicated on the forty five 405 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: Q tax credit. And then there's all the ways that 406 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: the state laws are flying buttresses for things like federal 407 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: tax credits. So some states actually have mirror laws so 408 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 2: that if they get a federal tax credit, that automatically 409 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: gives them a state credit on their state taxes. So 410 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 2: I think there are twenty some odd states that have 411 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 2: that kind of parallel tax structures. So if the federal 412 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: government gives Exxon a tax credit, then the state counts 413 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 2: that off of their income that they have to report 414 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: for their state taxes. And then there are things like 415 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: state tax credits in states like Iowa that give companies research. 416 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: If they do research into various products or whatever else, 417 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: they get a tax credit for that research. And yet 418 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: we are starving our public institutions, you know, our Iowa 419 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: State University from money. And in addition, we have federal 420 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: laws that are reflected in those state institutions that have 421 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 2: set into place a way of transferring technology through these 422 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: university publicly funded and industry partnerships. And that's under a 423 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: whole set of laws that originated with something called the 424 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: Bidole Technology Transfer Act, where we wanted to get technologies 425 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: into public hands. The best way to do with that 426 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: was through private corporations. And that's Following World War Two, 427 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: we put in place that entire funding structure for R 428 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: and D. 429 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 3: So there's so little. 430 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 2: Science now that is government and publicly funded that is 431 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: simply science in the public interest. Oh, this is just parenthetical, 432 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: believe but Jane Lupchenko, who is president of Triple As, 433 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 2: said we needed a new social contract for science, and 434 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: the reason was that we were now facing a planet 435 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 2: that was in dire straits and we were still operating 436 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: under the old contract, which is we need more widgets 437 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: for the balance of trade, and so we're not doing 438 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: basic science. We're not looking at preventive health measures, or 439 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 2: you know, we're developing viagra and glaucoma drugs. We're developing 440 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: pharmaceuticals that make companies rich for a very long time. 441 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 2: And we are funding carbon capture and storage through enormous 442 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: amounts of money through Department of Energy with loans and grants. 443 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,959 Speaker 2: The Transfer Act, which has both construction, well get Maggie 444 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: to talk about it, but that they can help fund 445 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 2: construction as well as then fund the credits under different 446 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: tax credit structures and they can take their choice or 447 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: double dip. And there's been a lot of research now 448 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 2: on our side trying to look at can they double 449 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: dip on these and can they both get an ethanol 450 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: tax credit and a forty five Q tax credit. Paul's 451 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: written and said no. But if you look at the 452 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 2: big corporate lawyers who defend these guys and do their 453 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: tax returns. They are looking for every avenue possible to 454 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: get more public money flowing into the likes of Chevron 455 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 2: and Exxon and Summit. So the amount of money that 456 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: is coming in so many different directions and is not 457 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: fully accounted in a public ledger. For what this has 458 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: cost us is unbelievable. 459 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: The last thing I wanted to ask you about is 460 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: that the one place that litigation might be possible is 461 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: around the pipelines. 462 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this the pipelines are going to be litigated. 463 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: We all know that. Everybody's saying it. It's and it'll 464 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: be litigated under a couple of places. But first and 465 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 2: foremost is eminent domain. Why should private land be taken 466 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: from a private landowner and given to another private owner. 467 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: So that's going to get litigated, and then it will 468 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 2: probably be litigated under the Army Corps of Engineer's Permit 469 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: fifty eight. So you know, the way we won for 470 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 2: the most part Dakota access with the tribes was the 471 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: Army Corps of Engineers permits, the couple of permits they 472 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: had to give for the Missouri River with Dakota access, 473 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 2: and I'm sure there will be some litigation with nationwide 474 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: Permit fifty eight, but that tends not to stop stuff. 475 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: So one of the tactics of these pipeline companies is 476 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,239 Speaker 2: to rush stuff, to start construction before they've got all 477 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: the permits in now. Iowa has said you cannot start 478 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 2: construction until you've got North Dakota's permit for the poor 479 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: space and for the pipeline, and South Dakota's pipeline permit, 480 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: but the rest of them, they would rush. So even 481 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: if they don't have all of the other permits that 482 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: they need, and there's quite a few, including the Army 483 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: Corps engineers and others, and the Army Corps usually aggregates 484 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: a bunch of other agency permits US Fish and Wildlife 485 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: and all of those, so they will start construction. And 486 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: then the logic is, you can't stop us now, we've 487 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: invested so much money. They'll say, when the rule comes out, well, 488 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: you can't change the rules of the game now, because 489 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 2: we've already we are already got at this permit, we've 490 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: already you know, whatever they've all already done. You can't 491 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: change anything now, and you can't hold them accountable, and 492 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: you can't stop construction because they've started, and we saw it. 493 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: Really they started without the Army Corps of Engineer's permit 494 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 2: in Iowa and without a bunch of other permits, and 495 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: then it was well, we can't waste that money. Who's 496 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: going to stop them? You know? And now the DA 497 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: Code access is actually up and running. The judge Boasberg 498 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 2: in Washington said this is not a legal permit, but 499 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: they're not making him tear it out. So you know, 500 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: the question is at what point does litigation actually stop 501 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: something or when does it just make a lot of 502 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 2: nonprofit lawyers crazy and a lot of industry lawyers rich. 503 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: So the litigation will emerge over time and the pipelines 504 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 2: are the best bet and will it stop it? I 505 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:53,479 Speaker 2: don't know. 506 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. We'll be back soon with 507 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: another episode in this series. Don't forget to check out 508 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: the print stories that are going along with this series 509 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: as well on our website at drilled dot Media and 510 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: with various co publishing partners including Rolling Stone and Vox. 511 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: This episode was mixed and mastered by Peter duff Our. 512 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: Theme music is Bird in the Hand by four Known, 513 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: fact checking by Sarah Sneath. 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