1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is David Popatopple's host of Elon Inc. We 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: have for you this week our interview in Cutter that 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: our colleague Michelle Hussein did with Elon himself. Here is 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: that interview in its entirety right now. And you should 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: also know that our episode, our Elon in episode this 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: week is all about me and Max breaking down the 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: interview and dissecting it the highlights, the low lights, et cetera, 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: et cetera. Enjoy. 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: Hello everyone and Elon Musk. Welcome to Cutter Economic Forum. 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: How are you? 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I'm fan, how are you? 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: Very well? Thank you and very pleased to have you 13 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 2: with us. You know among those here in the audience 14 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: in Doha are some you will know people who have 15 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 2: backed you financially. Over the years since you last spoke 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 2: here in twenty twenty two, a lot has changed in 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: your life. You're not only running multiple companies you were 18 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: doing that then, but now you also have a role 19 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: in government. So first of all, I hope you won't 20 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: mind it. For time to time, I have to move 21 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: you from one topic to another because we have a 22 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: lot to cover in the time we have. That will 23 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: be all right, okay. Well, let's start then with exactly 24 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: the fact that you now have this combination of being 25 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: a CEO and having a role as a government advisor. 26 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 2: Tell me about your week. How does it work? What's 27 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: the split of your time? 28 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 3: Well, I travel a lot. So I was in Silicon 29 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: Valley yesterday morning, I was in LA yesterday evening. I 30 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 3: mean Austin right now. I'll be in DC tomorrow. I'll 31 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 3: be there having dinner with President tomorrow night, I believe, 32 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 3: and then a lot of cabinet secretary meetings and then 33 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: back to Sloton Valley on Thursday night. 34 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: But I mean the balance of your time is it? Well, 35 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: clearly it's a lot. But is it still the case 36 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: as you said a while ago, that it's about one 37 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: to two days a week on your government work. 38 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct. 39 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: And what does that mean for your corporate life? Because 40 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: if we start with Tesla, the company has suffered in 41 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 2: recent months what you've called blowback. So what is your 42 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: plan for turning that around? The declining sales picture? And 43 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: by what stage do you think you're going to be 44 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: able to turn it around? 45 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: Oh, it's all ready to turn around. 46 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: Give me some evidence for that. I've just been looking 47 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: at the sales figures for Europe in April, which show 48 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: very significant declines in the big markets. 49 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 3: Europe is our weakest market. We're stronger everywhere else, so 50 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 3: our sales are doing well at this point. We don't 51 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: anticipate any any meaningful or sales shortfall, and the you 52 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: know the obviously the stock market recognizes that since we're 53 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: now back over a trillion dollars in marketcap, so really 54 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 3: the market is aware of the situation. 55 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 4: So it's already turned around. 56 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 2: But sales still down compared to this time last year. 57 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 3: In Europe. In Europe, okay, and yes, but that's that's 58 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 3: true of all manufacturers. 59 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 4: There's no accessions. 60 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: Does that mean that you're not going to be able? 61 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: Does that mean you're quite weak? 62 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: Okay, but you would acknowledg wouldn't you that what you 63 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: are facing. Okay, let's just take it as Europe, what 64 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: you are facing is a significant problem. This Tesla is 65 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: an incredibly aspirational brand. People identified with it, it saw it, 66 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: They saw it as being at the forefront of the 67 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: climate crisis. And now people are driving around with stickers 68 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: in their cars saying I bought this before we knew 69 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: Elon was crazy, and there. 70 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: Are also people who are by buying it because Elon's crazy, 71 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: or however they may view it. So, yes, we've lost 72 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: some sales, perhaps on the left, but we've gained them 73 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: on the right. The sales numbers at this point are strong, 74 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 3: and we've seen no problem with the mad So what 75 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: do I mean? You can just look at the stock 76 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 3: price if you want the best inside information. The stock 77 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 3: market analysts have that, and a stock wouldn't be trading 78 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: near all time eyes if it was not. If things 79 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 3: weren't in good shape, They're fine, don't worry about it. 80 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: Okay, I was citing sales figures rather than share price. 81 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: Well tell me then, how committed you are to Tesla? 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: Do you see yourself and are you committed to still 83 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: being the chief executive of Tesla in five years time? Yes, 84 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: no doubt about that at all. 85 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: Well no, I might die. 86 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: Okay, sure to that. 87 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 3: Let me see if I'm dead. So there's a slighter mode. 88 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 2: Does that mean that the value of your pay doesn't 89 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: have any bearing on your decision? 90 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 3: Well, that's not really a subject discussion in this forum. 91 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 3: The I think, obviously there should be a conversation for 92 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,679 Speaker 3: if there's something incredible is done, that compensation should match 93 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 3: that something incredible was done. But I'm confident that whatever 94 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: the whatever some activists posing as a judge in Delaware 95 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 3: happens to do will not affect the future compensation. 96 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: This is the judge you twice struck down the fifty 97 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: six billion dollar pay package that was that was awarded 98 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: to you. I think the value on the basis on 99 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 2: the current value of stock options. 100 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, not a judge, Not a judge. 101 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 3: The activist who is cars playing a judge in a 102 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 3: Halloween costume. 103 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: Okay, that's that's your characterization. I think the value on 104 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 2: the current value of stock options. I think the. 105 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: Actual justice according to the law, on. 106 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: The current value of stock options. I think the value 107 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: of that pay package stands at about one hundred billion dollars. 108 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: Are you saying you are relaxed about the value of 109 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 2: your future pay package. Your decision to be committed to 110 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 2: Tesla for the next five years as long as you 111 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: are still with us on this planet is completely independent 112 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: of pay. No, it's not independent. So pay is a 113 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: relevant factor then to your commitment to Tesla. 114 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 3: A sufficient voting control such that I cannot be ousted 115 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 3: by activists, investors is what matters to me. And I've 116 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: said this publicly many times, but let's not have this 117 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 3: whole thing be a discussion of my list pay. It's 118 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 3: not a money thing. It's a reasonable control thing over 119 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 3: the future of the company, especially for building millions, potentially 120 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 3: billions of humanoid robots. 121 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 4: I can't be sitting. 122 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 3: There and weren't going to get tossed out by litical 123 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 3: reasons by activists. That will be unacceptable. That's all that matters. Now, 124 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 3: let's move on. 125 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: Okay, Well just one question, well one question before we 126 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: move on to other companies, which is that I wonder 127 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: if some of what you've has happened to Tesla in 128 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: the last few months, did you take it personally? 129 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 3: Yes? 130 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: And did it make you regret any of you all 131 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: think twice about your political endeavors, because it is. 132 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: I did what needed to be done, the violent antibody reaction, 133 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 3: and I'm not someone who's ever committed violence, and yet 134 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: massive violence was committed against my companies, massive violence was 135 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 3: threatened against me. Who are these people? Why would they 136 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: do that? How wrong can they be? They're on the wrong, 137 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: on the wrong side of history, and that's an evil 138 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 3: thing to do, to go and damage some pointocent person's 139 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 3: car to threaten to kill me. What strong are these people? 140 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 3: I have not harmed anyone, So something needs to be 141 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 3: done about them, and a number of them are going 142 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: to prison and they deserve it. 143 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: You're well, you're referring to the attacks on Tesla showrooms, 144 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: but I. 145 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: Think, well, let's into showrooms and burning down cars unacceptable. 146 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: Those people will go to prison, and the people that 147 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 3: funded them and organized them will also go to prison. 148 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 3: Don't worry, wouldn't you. 149 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: You wouldn't you wouldn't. Wouldn't you acknowledge that some of 150 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: the people who turned against Tesla in Europe were are 151 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: upset at your politics, and very few of them would 152 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 2: have been violent in any way. They just objected to 153 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: what they saw you say or do politically. 154 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 3: Well, it's certainly fine to object to political things, but 155 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: it's not fine to resort to violence and hanging someone 156 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 3: in effigy and death threats. That's obviously not okay. You know, 157 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 3: that's absurd. That is in no way justifiable at all 158 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: in any way, shape or form. And some of the 159 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 3: legacy media and nonetheless have sort of justified which is unconscionable. 160 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: Shame on them. 161 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: Let's talk about your other companies then, in other business area, SpaceX. 162 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 2: I saw that you said in a speech at the 163 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: West Point Military Academy recently that the future of warfare 164 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: is AI and drones, And obviously defense is an increasingly 165 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: booming sector. With the state of the world at the moment, 166 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: do you we see SpaceX moving into weaponized drones? 167 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 3: You certainly ask interesting questions that are impossible to answer. 168 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 3: So SpaceX is is the space launch leader. So SpaceX 169 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: doesn't do drones. SpaceX builds rockets, satellites, and Internet terminals. 170 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 3: So SpaceX has a a very dominant position in space launch. 171 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: So of the mass launch to orbit this year, SpaceX 172 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: will probably do, China will do the remain half of 173 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 3: the remaining amounts of five percent, and the rest of 174 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 3: the world, including the rest of the US, will do 175 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: about five percent. So SpaceX will do about ten times 176 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 3: as much as the rest of the world combined, or 177 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 3: twenty times as much as China, which is in China 178 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 3: is doing actually a very impressive job. The reason for 179 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: this is that we're putting it into orbit the largest 180 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 3: satellite constellation, the Walls I've ever seen by far. So 181 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 3: I think at this point about maybe approaching eighty percent 182 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 3: of all active satellites in orbit are SpaceX and they're 183 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: providing high vand with global connectivity throughout the world. In fact, 184 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 3: this connection is on a SpaceX connection. So I think 185 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 3: this is a very good thing because it means that 186 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 3: we can provide low cost my bandwidth. 187 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 4: Internet to parts of the world that don't have it 188 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 4: or it's very expensive. 189 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 3: And I think the single biggest thing you can do 190 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 3: to lift people out of poverty and help them is 191 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 3: giving them an Internet connection, because once you have the 192 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: Internet connection, you can learn anything for free on the Internet, 193 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: and you can also sell your goods and services to 194 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 3: the global market. And once you have knowledge by the 195 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: Internet and the ability to engage in commerce, that this 196 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: is going to greatly improve quality of life for people 197 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 3: throughout the world. 198 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 4: And it has. 199 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: And I'd just like to think anyone in the audience 200 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 3: who may have been helpful and you know, with Starlink 201 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: and getting it to approved in their country, and I 202 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: think it's doing a lot of good in the countries 203 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 3: that to have approved it, which is I think this 204 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 3: point one hundred and thirty countries are very happy with it. 205 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 3: I don't currently into space space actually getting into the 206 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: weapons business, that's certainly that's not an aspiration. 207 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 4: We're fre we're frequently asked to. 208 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 3: Do to do weapons programs, but we have done part 209 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: a client. 210 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 2: Do you envisage SpaceX or indeed, starlink is a separate 211 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 2: entity publicly listing in the near future or at all. 212 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: It's possible that starlink may go public at some point 213 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 3: in the future. 214 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: And what would be the what would be the time frame, 215 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: what kind of time frame you consider it? 216 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: I mean right, I mean no rush to your public. 217 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 3: The public is I guess a way to you know, 218 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: potentially make more money, but at the expense of a 219 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 3: lot of public company overhead and inevitably a whole bunch 220 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: of lawsuits which are very annoying. So there's really something 221 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 3: needs to be done about the share shareholder shareholder derivative 222 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 3: lawsuits in the US, because it allows plaintiffs law firms 223 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: who don't represent the shareholders to pretend that they represent 224 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: the shareholders by getting a puppet plaintiff for a few 225 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 3: shares to initiate a massive lawsuit against the company, and 226 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: the irony being that extreme irony that even if the 227 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: class they purport to represent were to vote that they 228 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 3: don't want the lawsuit, the lawsuit will still continue. 229 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 4: So how can it be. 230 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 3: A class action representing a class if the class were 231 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 3: against it? And that's the bizarre situation we've got in 232 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 3: the US. It needs a diary to perform that. As 233 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: anyone's running a public company, you've experienced this. It's an 234 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 3: absurd situation that needs to change. 235 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: Well, do you think Donald Trump might change it? You've 236 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: certainly got his ear. I imagine that you've put this 237 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: to him. Is this something you're trying to change before 238 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: any starlink IPO. 239 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 4: Well, we need a law to be passed. 240 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: The trouble being that you need sixty Senate votes and 241 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 3: the Democrats will vote against it. The plaintiff's bar is 242 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 3: I believe, the second largest contributor to the Democratic Party. 243 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: That's the issue. At the state level, this can be solved, 244 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: and I should say Texas recently passed a law which 245 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 3: at least the state level made is much more reasonable 246 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: because you have to get at least one in thirty 247 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: three shareholders to agree that they are part of a 248 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: class of sharehold This will be really helped with frivolous lawsuits. 249 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about AI, which is in so many 250 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: of your businesses and in all our worlds in different ways. 251 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: It's one of the big changes the development of generative AI. 252 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: Since you last spoke to this forum three years ago, 253 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: you're in this space, of course with Grop, which almost 254 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: everyone will know. You co founded open ai and then left, 255 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: and you've obviously got a legal battle with open ai 256 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: and Sam Altman. I wonder if you could say something 257 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: about the status of that, because you were together in 258 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia with the president last week, with Sam Altman 259 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: in the same place at the same. 260 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 3: Time, in the neighborhood. 261 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: So does that mean you are pushing ahead with the 262 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: lawsuit against open ai. 263 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: Yes. So look, I came up with the name open 264 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 3: ai as an open source and as a nonprofit, and 265 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 3: I funded AI opening I for the first roughly fifty 266 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 3: million dollars, and it was intended to be a nonprofit 267 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: open source company, and now is they're trying to change 268 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 3: that for their own financial benefit into a for profit 269 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 3: company that. 270 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 4: Is closed source. So this would be like, let's. 271 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 3: Say you you funded a nonprofit to help preserve the 272 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 3: Amazon rainforest, but instead of doing that, they became a 273 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 3: lumber company, chopped down the forest and sold the wood. 274 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 3: You'd be like, wait a second, that's not what I funded. 275 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: That's opening. 276 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: They've made some changes to their call for instructure, though, 277 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: haven't they since in recognition of of what you've said? 278 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: And now that's just what they told the media. 279 00:16:53,720 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: Okay, part they have part they have partly walked back 280 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 2: their plan to restructure the business. I guess that's made 281 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: no difference to how you feel about it. So you 282 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: determined to see them in court. 283 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 3: Of course. 284 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, that's that's certainly going to be one to watch. 285 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 2: I also wanted to ask you about AI and regulation 286 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 2: because when you were here last talking to John Micklethwaite, 287 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 2: you had some pretty strong words about the risk that 288 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: AI poses and you said that you really felt what 289 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: the US was missing was a federal AI regulator that 290 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 2: you know, something along the lines of the Food and 291 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 2: Drug Administration or the Federal Aviation Administration. Now you're clearly 292 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 2: now in a zone where you're more you're more on 293 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 2: the cutting regulation side than wanting new regulators. So has 294 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: your view changed on the need for an AI regulator? 295 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 3: Well, something I don't think there should be regulators. You 296 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 3: think of regulators like referees on the on the field 297 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 3: in sport, there should be some number of referees, but 298 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: that you shouldn't have so many referees that you can 299 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 3: the ball without hitting one. So in many, in most 300 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 3: perhaps fields in the US, the regulatory burden has grown 301 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 3: over time to the point where it's like having more 302 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 3: referees than players on the field. So and this is 303 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: a natural consequence of an extended period of prosperity. It's 304 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 3: very important to appreciate this. This has happened throughout history. 305 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 3: When you have an extended period of prosperity with no 306 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 3: existential war, there's no there's no cleansing function for the 307 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 3: for unnecessary laws and regulations. So what happens is that 308 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 3: every year more laws and more regulations are pasted, because 309 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 3: you know, legislators are going to legislate, regulators are going 310 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 3: to regulate, and you will get the steady pile of 311 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: more and more laws and regulations of a time until 312 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 3: everything is illegal. And let me give you an example 313 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 3: of truly absurd situation. Under the Biden administration, SpaceX was 314 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 3: sued for not hiring asylum seekers in the US. Now. 315 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 3: The problem is it's actually illegal for SpaceX under itart 316 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: in National Traffic and Arms regulations to hire anyone who 317 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 3: is not a permanent resident of the United States, because 318 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 3: the premise being that they will take advanced rocket technology 319 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 3: and return to their home country if they're not a 320 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: permanent resident. 321 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 4: So we're simultaneously. 322 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 3: In a situation where it's illegal to hire slums US 323 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 3: and is also illegal to hire asylum seekers, and the 324 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: Biden's Departner of Justice chose to prosecute US despite both 325 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 3: paths being illegal. 326 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 4: Down if you do, down if you don't. 327 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: But my question was specifically about a regulator for AI, 328 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 2: which you said three years ago was needed, and you 329 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 2: said we need to be proactive on the regulation of 330 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: AI rather than reactive. Have you changed your mind on that? 331 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 4: No, of course not. What what? 332 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: No? Of course not. What I'm saying is that there 333 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 3: should be some referees on the field, a few referees, 334 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 3: but you. 335 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 4: Shouldn't have a field jam packed. 336 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 3: With referees that such that you could not kick a 337 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 3: ball in any direction without hitting one. So the the 338 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 3: the fields that have been around for a long time, 339 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: such as automotive, so aerospace you know, if the sort 340 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 3: of food and drug industries are overregulated, but the new 341 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 3: fields like artificial intelligence are underregulated. 342 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 4: In fact, there is no regulator at. 343 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: All, so they should be. 344 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: Do you still think that, Yes, I'm simply saying, which 345 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 3: I think is just basic common sense, that you want 346 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 3: to have at least you want you want to have 347 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 3: a few referees in the field. You don't want to 348 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 3: have an army of referees, but you want to have 349 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 3: a few referees on any given field, in any given sport, 350 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 3: or even any given arena industrial arena to ensure help 351 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: that like safety is taken care of. But your already 352 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 3: have so there's a there's there's a proper number of referees. 353 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 3: Like I said, it's actually very easy to visualize this 354 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: when compared to sports. If the whole field is packed 355 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 3: with referees, that would look absurd. But if there were 356 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 3: no referees at all, your game is not going to 357 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 3: be as good. 358 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 2: Okay, So let's then talk about your new world, your 359 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: your role advising government. You are in this unique and 360 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: unprecedented position of having billions of dollars worth of contracts 361 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: with the federal government yourself, mostly through SpaceX and also 362 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: now an insider's knowledge of it because of dog. Can 363 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: you see that there is a conflict of interest or 364 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 2: a potential conflict of interest in broad terms just through 365 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: that very fact. 366 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 3: I don't think so. Actually, there have been many advisors 367 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 3: throughout history and the US government and others who have 368 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: had economic interests, and I am silverely an advisor. I 369 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 3: don't have a formal power, and that's a president can 370 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 3: choose to accept my advice or not, and that's that's 371 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 3: how it goes. If there's a single contract that any 372 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 3: of my companies have received that people think is somehow 373 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 3: not was was awarded improperly, it would immediately be front 374 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 3: page news, to say the least. And if if I 375 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 3: hadn't mentioned it, certainly my competitors would. So if you're 376 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 3: not seeing that, then the clearly is not a complex 377 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 3: to interest. 378 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 2: The Yeah, there's another way though to look at it. 379 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: That For example, you have many competitors, whether it's companies 380 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: like Boeing or companies wh would like to do more 381 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: of the kind of work you do for NASA Blue 382 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: Origin Rocket Lab. And because those is in every federal 383 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: government department, you or people who work for and you 384 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: are the driving force behind it, have an insight into 385 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: those companies' affairs and those companies relationships with the federal government. 386 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 3: Now, all we do is we review the organization to 387 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 3: see if the organization has departments that are no longer 388 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 3: relevant and and and then are the contracts that are 389 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 3: being awarded good value for money? In fact, frankly, the 390 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 3: bar is not particularly high. Is there any value for 391 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 3: money in a contract? And if there's if there isn't, 392 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 3: then we make recommendations to the secretary. The secretary you 393 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: can choose to take those actions or not take those actions, 394 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: and that's it. And then any action that that that 395 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: is as a function of DOGE is posted to the 396 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 3: DOGE website and to the DOGE dog govort at DOGE 397 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 3: handle on the x platform. So it's it's complete tran transparency. 398 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 3: And I have not seen any case where so that's 399 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 3: my large It's even been an accusation of conflict because 400 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: it is as completely and utterly transparent. That's it. 401 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 2: And what about the international dimension. Now, let's think about Starlink. 402 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 2: Starlink is obviously a very very good internet service. It's 403 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 2: sought after all over the world. It's critical to the 404 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 2: frontline in Ukraine. It has also had more contracts coming 405 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 2: its way, and there is some evidence that companies are 406 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 2: allowing access to it because they want to be close 407 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 2: to the Trump administration and send the right signal. So 408 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: Bloomberg broke news today that the South African government is 409 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 2: working around their rules on black ownership in order to 410 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: allow starlinkin and that is being done on the eve 411 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 2: of the visit the President Ramaposa is going to make 412 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: to the White House. Do you recognize that as a 413 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: conflict of interest. 414 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 3: Now, of course not. First of all, you should be 415 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 3: questioning why is there why are the racist laws in 416 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 3: South Africa. That's the first plot problem. That's what you 417 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 3: should be attacking. It's improper for the race, the laws 418 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 3: in South Africa. The whole idea with what Nelson Mandela, 419 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 3: who is a great man, proposed, was that all races 420 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: should be on an equal footing in South Africa. That's 421 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 3: the right thing to do, not to replace one set 422 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 3: of racist laws with another set of racist laws, which 423 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 3: is utterly wrong and improper. So that's that's the deal, 424 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 3: that all races should be tweat equally and there should 425 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 3: be no preference given to one or the other, whereas 426 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: there are now one hundred and forty laws in South 427 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: Africa that give that basically give strong preference to to 428 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 3: if you if you're black South African and not otherwise. 429 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 3: And so now I'm in the subsurd situation where I 430 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 3: was born in South Africa but cannot get a license 431 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 3: to operate in starlink because I'm not black. 432 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 2: Well, it looks like it looks looks like that, right, 433 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 2: it looks like that's about to change. 434 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 3: I just asked you a question. Please answer. Does that 435 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 3: seem right to you? 436 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 2: Well? Those rules were designed to bring those rules were 437 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 2: designed to bring about an era of more economic equality 438 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: in South Africa, and it looks like the government has 439 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: found a way around those rules for you. 440 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 3: Ask your question. 441 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 2: This is this is your interview. Everyone wants to hear 442 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: from you. 443 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 4: Yes or no, not. 444 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 2: For me to answer. I have got a question for 445 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 2: you about about your government works and the amount of savings. 446 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 4: Do you like raceless loves? 447 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: This is not for me to answer. Come on, now, 448 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: you wouldn't be trying to dodge. 449 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 3: A question to answer question? 450 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 4: Answer you answer? 451 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 2: I say, I think if you I'm sure you can 452 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: have that conversation directly with the South African government if 453 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 2: you want to, I want to ask you about the 454 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 2: total I want to ask you about the total around. 455 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about the total amount that 456 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: you're planning to save through Doge's work. Before the election, 457 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 2: you said it was going to be at least two trillion. 458 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: The number currently on doze dot gov is one hundred 459 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 2: and seventy billion dollars. That's a big change. What happened 460 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: to the two. 461 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: Trillion or do you expect it to happen immediately? 462 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: Well? Is it going to happen because those is supposed 463 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: to run till next July. 464 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 3: I mean, your question is absurd in this fundamental premise. 465 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: Are you assuming that on day you know, within a 466 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 3: few months this instant two trillion saved? 467 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 2: No, I'm not sure. I'm just asking you is that 468 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 2: still your aim? 469 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: Then? 470 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: Is it still your aim to get. 471 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 4: Amount of time? 472 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: Have we not made good progress given the amount of time? 473 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: That's exactly what I'm asking, So is it still your 474 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 2: aim to go from one hundred and seventy billion to 475 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: two trillion? 476 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,479 Speaker 3: The ability of those to operate is this function of 477 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 3: whether the government and this include the Congress is willing 478 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 3: to take our advice. We're not the dictators of the government. 479 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 3: We are the advisors, and so we can advise. And 480 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 3: the progress who made thus far think is incredible. Those 481 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 3: team has done incredible work, but the magnitude of the 482 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 3: savings is proportionate to the support we get from Congress 483 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: and from the executive branch of the government in general. 484 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 4: So we're not the dictators. 485 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 3: We are the advisors. But thus far, for advisors with 486 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 3: the Doorge team, to their credit, has made incredible progress. 487 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: You've talked about four billion dollars a day being saved, 488 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: but that that won't get which is an and I 489 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: think everyone can agree that combating waste and inefficiency in 490 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: government is a very good thing. But if you add 491 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: that up, it's not going to get to two trillion 492 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: over the lifetime of dog. 493 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. 494 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: The four billion, the four billion a day, if dose 495 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 2: is going to run till next July, is not going 496 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 2: to get you to trilli and dollars. But you still 497 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 2: say it's your aim, so we'll take that as read. 498 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 3: There's there's, there's there's what doge I mean? I fail 499 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 3: You're somewhat trapped in the NPC dialogue tree of a 500 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: traditional journalist. So it's difficult when when I'm conversing with 501 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 3: someone who's trapped in the valor te of a conventional journalist, 502 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 3: because it's like talking to a computer. So, uh, DOGE 503 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 3: is an advisory group? We are doing the best we 504 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 3: can as an advisory group. The progress made thus far 505 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: as an advisory group is excellent. I don't think any 506 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 3: advisory group has done better in the history of advisory 507 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: groups of the government. Now we were We do not 508 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 3: make the laws, nor do we control the judiciary, nor 509 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 3: do we control the executive branch. We are simply advisors 510 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 3: in that context, we're doing very well. Beyond that, we 511 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: can not we can't take action beyond that because we 512 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 3: are not some sort of imperial dictator of the government. 513 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 3: There are three branches of government that that art some 514 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 3: degree opposed to that level of cost savings. Unless let's 515 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 3: let's let's not criticize whether there's four trillion. Instead look 516 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 3: at the fact that our sixty billion has been saved 517 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 3: and more we save two. 518 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 2: And as I said, I think everyone can agree that 519 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: cutting waste and indeed fraud in any government and being 520 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 2: responsible with taxpayer money is a very good thing. So yes, 521 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: I can see, I can see that you're proud of 522 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: that work. I do want to ask you about USAID 523 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: and the comments that Bill Gates made the other day, 524 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: which and I know that you called him. I know 525 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: you've said that already. 526 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 3: I learned it also, And I'm just who does Bill 527 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,479 Speaker 3: Gates think he is to make comments about the welfare 528 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 3: of children, given that he is beforequented Jeffreystein. 529 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: Okay, well he's he's he said he regrets those and 530 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: he's spent. He spent. He spent a lot. He spent 531 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: a lot of his own money on on philanthropy around 532 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: the world over the years. My question to you is 533 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: have you looked at the data to check if he 534 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 2: might be right that the cuts to U S A 535 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: I D might cost millions of lives. 536 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 3: Yes, I'd like him to proshure us any any evidence 537 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 3: whatsoever that that is true. 538 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 4: It's false. 539 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 3: The what we're found with US A D cuts and 540 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 3: by the way, they have an urban cut. The parts 541 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 3: of the U S A D that we found to 542 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 3: be even slightly useful, we're transferred to the State Department. 543 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 3: So they've not been deleted, they've really been transferred to 544 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 3: the State Department, but many many times over with US 545 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 3: A D and other organizations when we've when they said, oh, 546 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 3: well this is going to help you know, children, or 547 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 3: it's going to help some uh disease eradication or something 548 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 3: like that. And then when we ask for any evidence whatsoever, 549 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 3: I say, well, please connect us with this group of 550 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 3: children so we can talk to them and understand more 551 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 3: about their issue. We get nothing. We don't they don't 552 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 3: even try to prevent a show. We should come up 553 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 3: with a with a show often meaning like it's sort 554 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 3: of like, well, can we at least see a few kids, 555 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: like where are they if they're in trouble, we'd like 556 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 3: to talk to them and talk to their caregivers. 557 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 4: And then we get something as a. 558 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 3: Response because it's what we find is an enormous amount 559 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 3: of fraud and graft. 560 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: Okay, let me put this example. 561 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 3: Very little actually gets to the kids, if anything at all. 562 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: Okay, let me put this example to you because you 563 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: grew up in South Africa, so you will know the 564 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: impact of HIV AIDS well. And this is why I 565 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 2: asked about the data the US led on international efforts 566 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: to combat HIV AIDS treatment prevention, and there's an initiative 567 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: called pepfile which is credited with saving twenty six million 568 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: lives in the last twenty years. It was part of 569 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 2: the foreign aid freeze. Then there was a limited waiver. 570 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: Its services are disrupted, and unaid says if permanly discontinued, 571 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: there will be another four million AIDS related deaths by 572 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 2: twenty twenty nine. So if you look at that example, 573 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: which is backed up by data. In twenty twenty three, 574 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: six hundred and thirty thousand people died of AIDS related illnesses, 575 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: then perhaps Bill Gates's figures are not wrong. Millions of 576 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 2: lives could be lost. 577 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 3: First of all, the program, the AIDS Medication program, is continuing, 578 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,719 Speaker 3: so your fun model premise is wrong. 579 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 4: It is continuing. Now do you have another example, not. 580 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: In its entire not in its the program there's a 581 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: limited waiver, and UNAIDS have said that not all of 582 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 2: the services that were previously funded by USA IDEA continuing. 583 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: So why that's why I put that example to you? 584 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 3: Okay, well, which ones aren't being funded? 585 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: I'll fix it right now for okay. Well, actually they're 586 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: all on the unaid's website, so you'll be able to 587 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 2: see them, but mostly they are to deal with Mostly 588 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 2: they are to do with prevention. And for example, the 589 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 2: rollout of a drug called lenna kappavir, which was hailed 590 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,959 Speaker 2: as one of the biggest breakthroughs against AIDS for many years, 591 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: which came out last year. So if you are perhaps, 592 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: I'm sure UNAIDS would be delighted if you're able to 593 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: look at that again. 594 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 3: Yes, well, well, if in fact this is true, which 595 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 3: I doubt it is, then we'll fix it. 596 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: Okay, fine, So finally, political, your political influence. I wondered 597 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: whether you have decided yet how much you're going to 598 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 2: spend on the the upcoming midterms. Is it you spent 599 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 2: a lot more money on the last US election than 600 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 2: you envisaged when you were speaking here three years ago. 601 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: Are you going to continue to spend at that kind 602 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: of level on future elections? 603 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 3: I think in terms of political spending, I'm going to 604 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 3: do a lot less in the future. 605 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: And why is that? 606 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 3: I think I've done enough? 607 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: Is it because of blowback? 608 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 3: Well, if I see a reason to do political spending 609 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 3: in the future, I will do it. 610 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 4: I did not currently see reason. 611 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: What about political influence beyond the US, how often do 612 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 2: you speak to President Putin. 613 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 3: I don't speak to President Putin. 614 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 2: You've never spoken to President Putin. 615 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 4: I was on a video caller with him once about 616 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 4: five years AG. That's the only that's the speak president 617 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 4: President Putin. Oh, you must I get it. You believe 618 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 4: the legacy. 619 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 2: Actually, i've heard you. I've heard you speak about it. 620 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 2: For example, in your West Point speech, you said, oh, 621 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 2: I challenged President Putin to uh to was it an 622 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 2: arm wrestle? And I know the Wall Street Journal has 623 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 2: reported your reported conversations. If you're if you're saying they 624 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 2: haven't happened other than once, I'll take that as read. 625 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 3: Is there a worse publication on the face of the 626 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: earth than the Wall Street Journal? I wouldn't use that 627 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 3: to ligne up my cage for paragraphics that that that 628 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 3: newspaper is the worst newspaper in the world. And there's 629 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 3: and you know, if there's one newspaper that should be 630 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 3: pro capitalist, it's the one with Wall Street in the name. 631 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 4: But it isn't. So I have the very lowest opinion 632 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 4: of the Wall Street Journal. 633 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 3: Absolute answers, And you clearly have believed the tripe that 634 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 3: you've written, that you've read in those papers I read. 635 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 2: I read very widely, and I'm putting these questions to 636 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: you so that you have an opportunity to respond to them, 637 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: which you are and for which we're all grateful to hear. 638 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: Your response is, okay, we are. We are out of time. 639 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 3: So you mentioned challenging. I did so on on the 640 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 3: X platform. I challenged Vladi Imprutin over the I didn't 641 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 3: talk to him. That was a post on the X platform. 642 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 2: That's why. That's why I asked you, and you've and 643 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: you've clarified and explained, thank you. That's that's why I 644 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 2: was asking whether you have had reported conversations and and 645 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 2: you've said you have another than a video. 646 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 4: Okay, legacy mediaize. 647 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: Okay, listen. I actually thought I might give Grock the 648 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: last word, because when I asked Rock what your hardest 649 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 2: challenge is, it said the strain of managing multiple high 650 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 2: stake ventures and made financial, regulatory and public relations crises. 651 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 2: And I wondered whether you recognize that characterization and whether 652 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 2: you do think that this is a pivot or year 653 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 2: in your life. 654 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 3: Well, every year has been somewhat pivotal, and this one's 655 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,919 Speaker 3: no different. So I mean in terms of interesting things 656 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 3: that hopefully our coverers this year the getting Starship to 657 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 3: be fully reusable so that we catch both the booster 658 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 3: and the ship, which will be the first fully reusable 659 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 3: orbital rocket ever in history, which is would be a 660 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 3: profound breakthrough as the essential breakthrough necessarily to make life 661 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,919 Speaker 3: multiplanetary and ultimately become a space faring civilization. We've got 662 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:48,959 Speaker 3: neuralink which is now helped five patients restore capability using 663 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 3: the telefty implants where they're able to control the computer 664 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 3: simply by thinking. We'll be doing our first patient to 665 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 3: restore blank true source site with our blind site implant, 666 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 3: which is the end of this year early next. In fact, 667 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 3: that that first patient might be in the U a E. 668 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 3: Since we have a relationship with you and the Cleveland 669 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 3: clinic clinic there. The I think what's running on the 670 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 3: AI front, we are close to what you might call 671 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 3: a g I or or digital superintelligence, and I think 672 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 3: we'll see we are seeing an explosion in digital super 673 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 3: intelligence here. 674 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 4: And then we've got at Tesla, the what we'll. 675 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 3: Be launching unsupervised autonomy basically self driving cars with no 676 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 3: one in them in Austin next month. So it's it's 677 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 3: a big year for sure. Many other things on the 678 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 3: in the in the works too. I'm a technologist first 679 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 3: and foremost. 680 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, thank you very much for joining us here 681 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 2: at CUT the Economic Forum. Thank you M