1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: It almost seemed like in the fall of nineteen eighty 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: nine there was some malignancy in the air. Just strange 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: things started to happen. It was a weird time. 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war wicked On Exactly Right. I've 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: My name is Russell Maines, I go by RUSS and 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 2: I'm a lawyer in Ithaca, New York. 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: Russell Mains was a reporter for the Ethaica Journal in 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, and he was there during one of 21 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: the most notorious murders in upstate New York. If you've 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: heard my first season of tenfold More Wicket, you might 23 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: remember the village of Dryden. That's where killer Edward Rulolph 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: lived with his wife's family in the eighteen forties before 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: he murdered four of them. More than a century later, 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: Dryden suffered through a series of killings that made national 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: news and earned itself the nickname the Village of the Damned. 28 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: And it all began with the execution of an entire family. 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: I had been working freelance for a couple of weekly papers, 30 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: and then I got my big break to be the 31 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: police reporter at the Ithaca Journal, and we began to 32 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: get a lot of higher than usual number of assaults 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: what you would classify as violent crime, but nothing nationally 34 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: newsworthy that fall. The first major event winter of eighty 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: nine was the Harris family murder in Dryden, which is 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: a bedroom community of the center of It is about 37 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: ten miles from Ithaca. What we know happened was that 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: there was a leave it to beaver kind of family 39 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: of four. The mother and father were Tony Harris Warren Harris, 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 2: also known as Tony. He was thirty nine years old 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: and he was the executive and executive at an electronics 42 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: manufacturing company in Ithaca. His wife was the Lauries Harris. 43 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: She was known as Dodie. She was forty one years 44 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: old and they had two children, Shelby who was fifteen, 45 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 2: and Mark with a Sea, who was eleven. On the 46 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: morning of December twenty third, nineteen eighty nine, a neighbor 47 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: heard the Harris fire almw It turned out to be 48 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: a fire alarm going off. It was obviously one of 49 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: the short days of the year. There had been a 50 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: heavy snowfall over the night, which is a significant fact. 51 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: The neighbor, mister Reagan, was woken before seven o'clock by 52 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: very loud alarm and he didn't know what to make 53 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: of it, didn't know what it was, and he called 54 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: the state police in Dryden. State Police barracks served several 55 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 2: miles away and the roads were very poor because of 56 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: the snowfall. Trooper John Benno was dispatched to the Harris house. 57 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 3: As he was. 58 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: Traveling there, day was just starting to break. When Beno arrived, 59 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: he saw the house. The house had a semi circular 60 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: a U shaped driveway in front of it, so with 61 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: two ends of the driveway addressing the road. As he 62 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: pulled up, he realized that there were a set of 63 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: tire tracks not going through the driveway, but going straight 64 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: from the garage across the yard. So literally who ever 65 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: went out of the garage apparently went straight across the lawn, 66 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: and he was believing that it was probably a burglary. 67 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: That was the most logical explanation. 68 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: Because even though there was this uptick in crime, that's 69 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: not what Dryden was known for. 70 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 2: Quiet rural community at the time, still probably known more 71 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 2: as a farming community. By the time Trooper Beno arrives, 72 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: it's starting to get light, the alarm has stopped. He 73 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: walks around the perimeter of the house, yelling State Police 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: anybody here. He doesn't hear anything. He then goes to 75 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 2: the back of the house to a set of French doors, 76 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 2: which he opens and then he sees there's smoke. House 77 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: is full of smoke, so he opens the doors. He 78 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: opens a window at the front of the house to 79 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: get some cross ventilation and get the smoke cleared out. 80 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: At that point to radio's for help, calls the dispatcher, 81 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: who then sends other troopers out, and he says any 82 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: fire people to come to. There's a living room, he 83 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: can see a Christmas tree. He makes his way up 84 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: the stairs. He goes to a room at the top 85 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: of the stairs, which appears to be a master bedroom. 86 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: He's overtaken by the smoke. He has to go back outside. 87 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: At some point, another trooper by the name of Michael 88 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: Simmons arrives, and another trooper by the name of Scott 89 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: Hendershott also arrive. I believe it was Beno on one 90 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 2: of those trips up to the top of the stairs 91 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: to that bedroom, sees a charred leg and he realizes 92 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: that he's. 93 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 3: Got a big problem. 94 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 2: Notifies the troopers, and he says, okay, there's been a 95 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: homicide or a domestic or something bad has happened here. 96 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: Why did he not assume that this was just some 97 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: object that had been consumed by the fire, You know 98 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: what I mean? Why jump to homicide? 99 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: Fair question. 100 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: I think at some point during the sequence he saw 101 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: a gas can, a rectangular gas can on the floor 102 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 2: of the living room, and either he or one of 103 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: his colleagues smell gasoline. But now you have more than 104 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: one point of origin of the fire. There's no been 105 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: no fire set in the down stairs. They can smell 106 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: the gasoline on the floor and the carpet of the downstairs. 107 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 2: Obviously a point of origin was the master bedroom. Firefighters 108 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: also go down to the end of the hall. There's 109 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: a bedroom there, and there's obviously been a fire set 110 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 2: in that room too, So firefighters go into the room, 111 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: break the window and. 112 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: Shoot a hose out. 113 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: So the hose basically that force draws the smoke out. Literally. 114 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: At some point one of the firefighters climbs over what 115 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: he thought was duffel bags, and it turns out to 116 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: be three bodies. 117 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And of course what we know about 118 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: fire is it erases so much of the evidence. You've got, 119 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: like the firefighters coming in and spring water everywhere. 120 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 3: That's true. 121 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: However, even given the destruction, there was a lot of 122 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: evidence still intact. Eventually they determined that the daughter, Shelby, 123 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: had been sexually assaulted and killed in the master bedroom 124 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: between the bedroom in Mark's bedroom. There was a dead 125 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: dog on the floor outside the bedroom. Shelby's clothes were 126 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: in the bathroom next to where the dog was. Shelby's 127 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: body was found next to a bed in the master bedroom. 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 3: The three bodies. 129 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: Of the other three family members were bound with wire 130 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: coat hangers, bound very tightly behind their backs at the 131 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: elbows and at the wrists. All the victims had been 132 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: shot in the head with the twenty two coliber gun. 133 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: No shell casings were found. They looked throughout the house. 134 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: They even cleaned out the septic tank. 135 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: So this is someone who's smart. 136 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: Somebody who's smart, well, not smart enough. 137 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: If he opened the bedroom doors after he set the fire, 138 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: he probably would have been a lot more successful. And 139 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: they learned that somebody had used mister and missus Harris's 140 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: credit cards and a mall and one mall in Auburn, 141 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: which is about a forty minute drive, and another mall 142 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: and Syracuse, which is about an hour drive. They went 143 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: and got composite pictures. This was before video cameras were 144 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: in all the stores, so they had to go and 145 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: talk to clerks and generate composites of the people who 146 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: are seen using the cards, so more than one more 147 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: than one person. They didn't know if it was three 148 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: people or two people. Based upon the descriptions they were getting, 149 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: they knew that it was at least a black female 150 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: fifties or sixties and a black male twenties or thirties. 151 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: So now we have four bodies. You have four bodies, 152 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: you have a teenage girl, you've got a young boy, 153 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: and then you've got the parents. Yes, as a journalist, 154 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: is it difficult to cover cases like that about children? 155 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: It would be harder now as a father for me 156 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 2: to do it than it was. I had some advantage 157 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: in that I was a punk. I was, you know, 158 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: early twenties, and did not have the sensitivities that a 159 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: parent would have. I mean, I thought of Shelby Harris, 160 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: who was fifteen years old, but I thought of her 161 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: as being more my contemporary than the parent's. Right, I 162 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: was closer in age to the kids. 163 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: So what do we know about the sequence of a 164 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: from that night? 165 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,119 Speaker 3: I guess I'll tell it from my perspective. 166 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 2: I mean what I remember Friday afternoon, Harris's were taken 167 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: by surprise at their home toward the end of the 168 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: schooled work day, four or five o'clock. It was an 169 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: extraordinarily cold day. It was snowing hard. I was in 170 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: a bad apartment and I was freezing to death. I 171 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: went to the seers and bought myself a space heater 172 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: and got home and literally watched on CNN the Romanian uprising, 173 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 2: bunch of people storming the palace, the Choshescu Palace in Romania. 174 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: So I'm hanging out. I'm living with my girlfriend. I 175 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: get up the next morning, I go somewhere to do something. 176 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: I come home and there's a message on my machine 177 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: no cell phones at that time from my editor at 178 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: the newspaper, saying that a family was found dead in 179 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: their home. When I heard that message, I thought, oh, 180 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: carbon monoxide from a furnace. They were in their sleep 181 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: and it killed them. 182 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: But that's not uncommon for this area, not terribly uncommon, 183 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: So you didn't jump to murder. 184 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: I did not jumped to murder. 185 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: Just like nine to eleven, I heard a plane had 186 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: crashed into a tower, and I thought, boy, you know, 187 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: because I'm not We're not too far from New York City. 188 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: There wasn't a cloud in the sky. I thought, gee, 189 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: that's odd, how'd that happen? And then a few minutes 190 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: later it became very clear what had happened. So it 191 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 2: was that sort of thing. Your mind seems to go 192 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: to the more innocuous explanation, But once we knew what 193 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 2: it was, Yes, people were terrified, people were frightened, they 194 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: were shocked. It was the twenty third when the bodies 195 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: were found. It was Monday, Christmas Day when the cops 196 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: first recorded this stuff about the bicyclists. Police were releasing 197 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: information very piece meal and keeping some of it to themselves. 198 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: There was no description given of the race of the cyclist. 199 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: The first one was using a parka. You know, I 200 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: thought that was kakamani uh and didn't give it. I thought, boy, 201 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: these guys are really grasping its straws. 202 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: Who are we looking at? Who were the suspects? What 203 00:10:58,760 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: do we know about them? 204 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 2: Little after Christmas Day, a few days after the composite 205 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: sketches of the people are released, they set up a 206 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: reward of I think twenty five thousand dollars for information 207 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 2: leading to the arrest or conviction of the people involved. 208 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: They of course say something like, oh, these are people 209 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: we want to talk to. We don't know if they're suspects, 210 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: something like that, persons of interest, persons of interest, And 211 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: they're getting phone calls all over the place. 212 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: Is Dryden a diverse town at this point, No, not 213 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: at all. 214 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: I don't know what the numbers were, but it was 215 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 2: very predominantly a white community. Imaginations go crazy when this 216 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: stuff happens. There are all kinds of theories. Tony Harris 217 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: was in the witness protection program, he testified in trial, 218 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: and he relocated here. Well, that's a foolish theory because 219 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 2: Tony Harris grew up in Syracuse and his parents' names 220 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: were Harris. So there's no validity to that until I 221 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: find out something years later that all these rumors like 222 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: that one. Usually there's something that started out true, and 223 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: then it's like a game of telephone, and sometimes you 224 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 2: can go back and find the root of this bad information. 225 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: Sometimes you can What were some of the other rumors? Oh, 226 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: there are rumors that it was a satanic cult. Somebody 227 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: pointed out that the guy who wrote The Silence of 228 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: the Lambs and Red Dragon, his name was Harris's a 229 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 2: murder described in there, and there was a lot of 230 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 2: similarities that people thought. So, oh, a guy named Harris 231 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: wrote this book, and maybe it was some sort of 232 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 2: copycat thing. 233 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: What is that? Why do people do that in a 234 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: small town or do they do it everywhere? 235 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: They do it everywhere. There's a vacuum of information and 236 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: they want to fill it. I mean all this stuff about, 237 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 2: you know, leave Harvey Oswald. People don't want to believe 238 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 2: that some goofball bought a twelve dollars or bolt action 239 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: rifle and was able to stand at the book deposit, 240 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: god knows how many yards away from President Kennedy's vehicle 241 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: and was able to pick him off there. 242 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: To me, is nothing more terrifying than a random act 243 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: of violence, random victims just picked for no good reason. 244 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: And so maybe that do you think that's like the reaction. 245 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 2: People want to cover up their fear with a rational explanation. 246 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: So among all of these calls they started getting, there 247 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 2: was a pattern of probably three or four people said, gee, 248 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: you should really look at Shirley King. 249 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 3: That woman looks like Shirley King. 250 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: And they started looking more and started coming to the 251 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: conclusion that probably it was surely using missus Harris's credit 252 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: card on the night of the twenty third. 253 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: That was the night they found the bodies, right on 254 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: the bodies. 255 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 2: In the morning of the twenty third, and in the 256 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: afternoon of the twenty third, surely used the credit card. 257 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: She came home from the mall, turned on the eleven 258 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: o'clock news and saw that a family had been murdered, 259 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: whose name was Harris. And then she said, oh boy, 260 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: and now I'm in deep. She told me this, and 261 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: I believe it to be true that she did not 262 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: know about the murders when she used the car. 263 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: Who is she? You know? Is she elderly? What is 264 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: she like? 265 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: So Shirley King at the time was fifty four years old. 266 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 2: She had been a single mother raising two children, Michael 267 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: and Gabrielle. She was in a bad, abusive relationship with somebody. 268 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 2: The relationship ended very young. The father of Michael and 269 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: Gabrielle eventually actually ended up living up here. Shirley just 270 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: sort of wanted to get away and come up to 271 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,119 Speaker 2: New York State. So Shirley had worked for the Treasury 272 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: Department in the sixties as a I think a secretary. 273 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: Because she worked for the Treasury Department, they had her 274 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: fingerprints on a fingerprint card. She becomes relevant later on. 275 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: Michael was at the time of the murders thirty three 276 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: years old, was described by many people as very highly intelligent. 277 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: One of these young guys that things went not his 278 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: way as he got older and just turned mad, just pissed, angry, 279 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: got into trouble had an armed robbery wrapped down in 280 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: New York City, small crimes, and then he decided to 281 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: straighten himself out and went to community college and took 282 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: computer programming classes and did very well. He had been 283 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: in the Marines. I was told a sharpshooter. I don't 284 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: know if that's an exaggeration, but he was very proficient 285 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: with weapons. He tried to straighten himself out, and then 286 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: he couldn't get a job, you know, bad economy in 287 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: the seventies and just black guy with a history, and 288 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: people didn't want to hire him, and he just seemed 289 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: to set him off and just get him sort of 290 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: more pissed. 291 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: And at this point, all we know is that this 292 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: family has been using the credit card of a family 293 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: who was just killed in Dryden. That's right, So we oh, 294 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: they could have found the credit card on the ground. 295 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know definitively if they were involved 296 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: with the Harris's murder. But then the police become alarmed, right. 297 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: They do become alarmed. I mean, obviously their theory is okay, 298 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: you know these two were involved at least the guy was. 299 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 3: Sureley's used the card, Michael's used the card. 300 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: They start looking at connections between Michael or Shirley and 301 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: the Harris family. Now surely worked took a lot of 302 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: part time jobs as a cleaning lady for a while. 303 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: She had worked for a young man and developer by 304 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: the name of Doug Sutton, and they got handwriting samples 305 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: from Doug Sutton because she'd been keeping the books. They 306 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: compared the handwriting and books to the handwriting on the signature. 307 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: You know, back then it was all credit cards. Was 308 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: you sign a piece of paper with a carbon on it. 309 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,239 Speaker 2: So they had all that and matched her known handwriting 310 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: samples to the credit card samples, and that was one 311 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: of the basis that they used to get the search warrant. 312 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: The morning of the twenty third, David Harding, who's a 313 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: state police investigator, and his colleague Rob Leshansky are going 314 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 2: through the house looking for physical evidence and there's a 315 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: lot of focus on the gas can, and they determined 316 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: fairly early on that the gas can belonged to the 317 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: Harris family. Harding set up tents that he had a 318 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 2: technique that they used at the time to basically do 319 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: a fumes. They put an object in a tent and 320 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 2: they do these fumes It's like it's like super glue 321 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: in a vapor form, so it hardens everything on the 322 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 2: surface of the object so they don't get wiped away. 323 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 2: So they're looking for fingerprints on this gas can and 324 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 2: Harding is trying as he might, and they're processing this 325 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: thing and they can't come up with any identifiable prints, 326 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: so they disregard the can as having much significance. So 327 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: weeks later, after Shirley King's name emerges as a suspect, 328 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: lo and behold, David Harding comes forward and says, hey, 329 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: Shirley King's prince match the prince on the gas can. 330 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: But they didn't have usable prints. 331 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So his bosses a senior investigator, David mcgellicate and 332 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: Carl Chandler. Carl Chandler says, wait a minute, time out. 333 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: I thought you didn't have any usable prints. Oh no, 334 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: on one side of the cant they weren't usable prince, 335 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 2: but on the other side there were these potentially usable prints. 336 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: He sort of tries to backfill the story to justify 337 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: this magical appearance of these prints. 338 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: So, if I'm an investigator now at this point, I've 339 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: got a mother in her fifties with a background and 340 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: cleaning houses very thoroughly, whose prints are on a gas 341 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: can that has been connected to the murder of a 342 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: family and her son, Michael is also maybe connected. And 343 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: there's a sexual assault, so obviously some man is there. 344 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: So where do they go now? 345 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 2: The theory made no sense in nineteen ninety, and it 346 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: makes no sense now. Theory is Michael King arrived at 347 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: the house around fourish, took the family by surprise, got 348 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 2: control of the mother and the two children, ambushed the 349 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: father when he arrived home at about six, got everybody 350 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 2: under control, went through the Christmas presence and committed these atrocities. 351 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 2: No cell phones, and I remember he had no vehicle, 352 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: got there by a bicycle. He went into Harris's van. 353 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: He drove about five miles to a mall where there 354 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: was a bowling alley and a pay phone. He called 355 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: his mother to come help him clean up a crime 356 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: scene where he just raped girl. His mother drove through 357 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 2: a snowstorm about eight miles from their home to this 358 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: pay phone. They drove together back to the house in 359 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 2: the snowstorm, cleaned the house, set the fires. When the 360 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: alarm went off, ran to the van, got in the van, 361 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: didn't have time to light the downstairs fire. They dumped 362 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: gasoline there because they were taken by surprise by the alarm, 363 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: got in the van, put the bicycle in the van, 364 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 2: drove to the mall where the phone was. Now, the 365 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: stupidity of this theory is multifaceted. First of all, Michael 366 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: came sophisticated. He knew how to you know, the guy 367 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 2: literally manufactured guns. He knew how things were and fit together. 368 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: So what is her defense? Why did she think this 369 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: was okay to use this woman's card. 370 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: She didn't think it was okay, and she had no 371 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: criminal record, no criminal record, fifty five year old woman. 372 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: Her son just hands her a credit card and says, okay, Mom, 373 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: go buy whatever you want. 374 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 2: She says, is gee, you know it's Christmas time. Okay, 375 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: I'll give my son a ride. Why did he have 376 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 2: his mother drive? Because he had a warrant out for 377 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: his arrest. He didn't want to get pulled over driving them. 378 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 2: That's why he recruited his mother to drive. It never 379 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: gets surely to admit this. The truth of the matter 380 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: was she was terrified of her son. I could tell that. 381 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: She wouldn't acknowledge that. So it's basically we're going shopping. Now, Okay, 382 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 2: get in the car. Okay, here's a card, use it now. 383 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: That's not a defense. She knew what she was doing 384 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: was wrong. She knew she shouldn't use the card. And 385 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: then I said to her, well, and you know, she 386 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: said this publicly. I'm not betraying confidences. She went and 387 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 2: bought underwear, bras and panties. Well, she basically went Christmas 388 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: shopping with a car. And I said, well, okay, you 389 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: bought like bras and underwear, and it's weird, like first 390 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: denied you buying the bar. She was embarrassed about the 391 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: bras and underwear. She said, well, I figured I was 392 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: at that point. I was in it. I was into 393 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: It's kind of like you dip your toe in the water, 394 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: and then it's like inm Bezzler's do steal twenty bucks here, 395 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: fifty bucks there, and next thing you know, it's a 396 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: couple hundred thousand dollars. 397 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: And then she's arrested an all trial for murder. 398 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: Initially she was charged with murder. She wasn't tried on murder, 399 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 2: she wasn't indicted on murder, but yes, she was taken 400 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: into custody on four counts of murder based on the 401 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: fingerprints being in the gas can. 402 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 3: They live in a duplex. 403 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: Shirley and Shirley's mother live on one side, and Michael 404 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 2: and his girlfriend Joanna White and their one year old child, 405 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 2: Ronan live on the other side of the duplex. So 406 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: the police get a search warrant for the two adjacent 407 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: sides of the duplex. And remember there's more linking surely 408 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: to the house than there is. 409 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: Michael the house and they kick in the door and 410 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: he has a gun. 411 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: They kick well, you're Their version of the events is yeah. 412 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: At the same time, there's two sets of state police 413 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: personnel going into two sides of the house. They have 414 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: a no knock warrant. They break down the doors, shoot 415 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: a dog on Michael's side, go up, and according to them, 416 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: they go into a bedroom. At the top of the stairs, 417 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: they confront Michael King's tiny bedroom. There's a doorway on 418 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 2: one side of the bed of the long end of 419 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: the bed, and on the other end of the bed 420 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: is Michael King. According to them, sitting on the edge 421 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: of the bed. They can see his profile and he's 422 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: holding a shotgun under his chin, at which point they 423 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: tell him drop the gun, don't do it, And according 424 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: to them, one of the investigators, Charlie Daniels, reaches over, 425 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: which is a crazy story, to try to grab him. 426 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: He gets up and turns, at which point they unload 427 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: on him. His gun discharges and then he falls on 428 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: the down on the far end of the bed, face up. 429 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 2: What we know is that after this event, David Harding 430 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 2: that night came in and cut from the Joyce cut 431 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: from the floor a hole out from under where Michael 432 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: King's chest was, and another eight inch square out from 433 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: under where Michael King's head was. When you line things up, 434 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: you can you can you have points of reference like 435 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 2: an outlet near where Michael King is lying. 436 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: So why does all that matter? 437 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: What we know is that there was a two bullet 438 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 2: holes to the chest right here, right by the sternum, 439 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 2: from a glock, which is already Daniels the guy who 440 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: says he reached around to the side of the bed. 441 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: And years later you went public to say you thought 442 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: they assassinated Michael King. 443 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: What I believe happened, and what I think the evidence 444 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 2: would show is that Michael King was down on the 445 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 2: floor on his back, under control, and they had him 446 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: under control for about five minutes before they took him out. 447 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,719 Speaker 1: Why why would they do that? 448 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: No death penalty in New York State. I mean, that's 449 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 2: it's that simple. It was this guy was a scumbag 450 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: and didn't deserve to live. I don't think it's anything 451 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: more sophisticated than that. Why do I say five minutes, 452 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: because surely was According to their story, there was just 453 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: a barrage gunfire. There was enough time for her to 454 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 2: get have the cops come in, make her get dressed, 455 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 2: get her out of the house. Their story was they 456 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: came up. The whole thing lasted about thirty seconds. What 457 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: it appears was they had him under control for a while, 458 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: or at least maybe not under control, but certainly the 459 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: shooting of Michael King happened several minutes after they first 460 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 2: went in. What happened in all that time, I don't know, 461 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: but he was on his back. There is an exit 462 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: wound in is what I believe is an exit wound 463 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: in the back of his head. The story was that 464 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: Michael King was shot by a shotgun. The guy who 465 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: Freedenburgh had a shotgun with double O buckshot and shot 466 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 2: King in the head in the back of the. 467 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: Head, So none of this is lining up. 468 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: If you are hitting the back of the head with 469 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 2: double O buck shot in the front of your face 470 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: is going to blow off. 471 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: Is this a robbery started out as a robbery and 472 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: then became a crime of opportunity with the teenager and 473 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: the sexual assault or was it the reverse? 474 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 2: Do you think if you can answer that question, you 475 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: get the gold star. 476 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: So he's organized. He brought a gun, brought a gun 477 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: in his backpack, but then he found a gas can 478 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: at the house and figured out that this was a 479 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: great way to cover up the crime, so he brought 480 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: a weapon, but then he used something in the house. 481 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: So it's like someone who thinks quickly on his feet. 482 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 2: I guess there are things that troubled me greatly about 483 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 2: this crime. I'll tell you something I've not told very 484 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 2: many people, but so you're going to have to take 485 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: my word from it for it, because the other person 486 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: who knows about it is debt. 487 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 3: Back in the. 488 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: Day when I worked at the paper, the way messages 489 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: were kept was the little pink slips. So my boss, 490 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: her name was Payne Peterson. She was the city at 491 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: a the paper. She was a slob like me, a 492 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: couple months after the crime, after Shirley been arrested, she 493 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: is cleaning out her desk and shows me pink slip 494 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: And it's a pink slip from December seventh, nineteen eighty. 495 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: Nine, a few weeks before the murderer. 496 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 2: Phone call from Tony Harris, and he's been getting these terrible, 497 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: harassing telephone calls and wants to talk to somebody about it. 498 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 2: She shows it to me and I say, oh shit, 499 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 2: I don't know. I wish I'd had the presence of 500 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: mind to take the piece of paper from her or 501 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: ask her for it. What I do know is that 502 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 2: Tony Harris had been commenting to other people about these 503 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: scary phone calls at you're beginning in the weeks before 504 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 2: the murder, and what was the context, don't know. 505 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: He was just saying, I'm getting some threatening phone calls. 506 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit nervous about it. 507 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: A lot nervous about it, scared about it. 508 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: Interesting and the police at the time of this murder 509 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: investigation didn't know this. 510 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: They wrote it off it's. 511 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: Hard to track down in eighty nine, right. 512 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: And started talking to the employees one by one. One 513 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: of the employees was a secretary by the name of 514 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: she might be a live stile, better not give her name. 515 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: At the Christmas party, the firm Christmas party, they went 516 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 2: to a Chinese restaurant nearby. They had rented out the room, 517 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 2: banquet room. And this was a few days before. I 518 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: think it was about the twenty first, just a couple 519 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: of days before he died. Tony and two of his 520 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: colleagues had gone to New Jersey in the days before 521 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 2: for a sales pitch, to sell some equipment or whatever. 522 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 2: They made. I don't even know what Dianco made to 523 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: somebody in New Jersey. It was a successful visit. They 524 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 2: secured a big contract. It should have been a cause 525 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: for elation. I got all the lead sheets from the investigation. 526 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: The woman was sitting near Harris with two other executives 527 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 2: at this lunch and said, it's not your problem. I'm 528 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 2: the one who has to worry about it. You're not 529 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 2: the one who has to deal with that. 530 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 3: It's me. 531 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 2: He was stressed, he was acting odd, and it was 532 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: strange to her because of the they they'd been happy, 533 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: the company was struggling, and he'd come back with this contract. 534 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 2: He seems so terrified to her that it bothered her. Now, 535 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: maybe she just magnified it in her head after the event, 536 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: but I give it some credence because it was given. 537 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 3: It was not something that she blew up in. 538 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: Her mind later. It was the day the cops first come. 539 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: They talked to her and she says, yeah, he was 540 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: acting oddly at this launch and troubled her. 541 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: How does this tie in to Michael King? How do 542 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: you entangle something like that? 543 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 2: You don't. 544 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 3: It's just these little bits and pieces. 545 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: Now, now you know, I was talking to you about 546 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories and now I'm giving you one. So and 547 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: maybe it's my mind going crazy. So there's that. And 548 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: I told you earlier that there is a something with 549 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: a kernel of truth. The stories were specifically that Tony 550 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 2: Harris had testified in a drug trial. Somebody gave me 551 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: the name of somebody. They said, you want to look 552 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 2: into this individual. I can't even remember his name now, 553 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: I'd have to go into my files and pull it out. 554 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: This guy you want to know about, he's got some involvement. 555 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: The guy lived in Florida, in Bradenton, Florida, and this 556 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: fellow was arrested in a cocaine bust in Bradenton, Florida, 557 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: in the summer of nineteen eighty nine, about six months 558 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: before the murder, large cocaine charge, felony charge, and then 559 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: the charges just were dropped. He was not convicted. He 560 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: had no ties that I could see to Ithaca or 561 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: Tompkins County, and I did a skip trace search on 562 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: him to get all his addresses where he'd been living. 563 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: Guy was in Bradenton, Bradenton, Bradenton, Bradenton, October of nineteen 564 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 2: eighty nine, Slaterville, New York, which is in the town 565 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: of Dryden. Lives in Dryden until about January and then 566 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: goes back to Florida. 567 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 3: I tried to. 568 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 2: Contacted Guy, I couldn't and then I was going through 569 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: another lead sheet and another name surfaced of a woman, 570 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: and woman has a last name of It's a family 571 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: name around here. 572 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 3: It's known. 573 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: It's unsavory folks. They tend to have bad reputations, get 574 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: in trouble a lot. So I saw a name of 575 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: somebody on a lead sheet with some hearsay attributed to 576 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: this woman. So I called her. I said, somebody says 577 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 2: you know something about the Harris family. He said, I'm 578 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: not talking to you. I've got family that lives here. 579 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: There's no way in how I'm talking to you. Cli 580 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: hangs up the phone. 581 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: So another dead end. 582 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 2: Another dead end. But these things sort of keep surfacing 583 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: and you start your mind runs away with you, so 584 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: that those are the bits and pieces that I know. 585 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: Where do you stand with Michael King? I mean, is 586 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: there any doubt that he did this? No, no doubt? 587 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: No why he gave his mom a credit card to 588 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: go shopping? 589 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: Sure all the circumstantial evidence he was using a credit card, 590 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: I'm sure you can say, well, yeah, but surely did too, Michael. 591 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: Michael got a ride near the crime scene by his 592 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: girlfriend Joanna White. So and she's on her way going 593 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: into work, or actually the afternoon, just before she goes 594 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: to work. He says, give me a ride. I'm going 595 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: to work. When he says he's going to work, he 596 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 2: doesn't have a job, and she takes that to me 597 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: and I'm going to commit a burglary. She drives him 598 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: to a point in Dryden that's about a couple miles 599 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 2: from the Harris House. 600 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: So you've got a witness who's dropped him off in 601 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: the vicinity. 602 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, the girlfriend drops him off. He's got his backpack 603 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: with him. She presumes that the backpack has a gun 604 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 2: in it. He says he's going to work. I mean, 605 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: all this stuff adds up. She was terrified. She's got 606 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: no reason to lie about this. Michael King had all 607 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 2: the proceeds of the crime, just all this stuff. It's 608 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 2: a mountain of evidence that he was there before they 609 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: glinked Shirley King and Michael King to this. There are 610 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: weeks going by, they were worried. It was weeks after 611 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 2: the crime that they got the first leads tying Shirley 612 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: King to it. It's like early February. So month went 613 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 2: by before they really started honing in two of them. 614 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: They went to the Behavioral Science unit and said, due 615 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 2: a profile of who you think did this crime? 616 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 3: Tell you read this. 617 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: Thing they really thought was that whoever did this was 618 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: trying to impress somebody, trying to impress an older person 619 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: who had influence over them. Where my mind goes and 620 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 2: all this is Michael King was a pretty decent planner. 621 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: I think he's not the type of person who had 622 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: not thought through to go out commit this crime and 623 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: then not have a way home afterwards. I believe he 624 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: was waiting for somebody to come and pick him up, 625 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: and that person never arrived, and that's when things started 626 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: really getting haywire and got out of control. He realized 627 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: that the ride wasn't coming. He was out there by himself. 628 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: It was up to him to shut it down and 629 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: get out of there. And he's there all night trying 630 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: to come up with a plan, and that's what he does. 631 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: Why take the risk of a sexual assault on a 632 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: girl if the father could come home. I mean, it 633 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: just seems like a ton of risk for someone. 634 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: The sexual assault they believe happened after probably after the 635 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: other three family members were killed. That happened last in 636 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 2: the sequence, or tour later in the sequence, then earlier. 637 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 2: I think it was more than one person involved, Not surely. 638 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: I think was Michael and somebody else. And then there 639 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 2: are all these troubling little knits and gnats that suggest 640 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 2: to me that there was trouble in Tony Harris's life, 641 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: that he had antagonized somebody, that Michael King was probably 642 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: set up to do this. Not probably, I think that's 643 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 2: a theory. Michael King was set up to do this. 644 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 2: The idea was given to Michael King, if you hit 645 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 2: this house, You're going to find something of value in 646 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: the house, and that was just a ruse. There was 647 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 2: nothing of value in the house he was and by 648 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 2: the time he realized he'd been fooled, and by the 649 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 2: time he realized he wasn't getting a ride out of there, 650 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 2: it was too late. That's what I believe. That's where 651 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 2: I think the proof would go. 652 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: So you think this was more focused on Tony Harris 653 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: and whatever he was involved with, more so than whatever 654 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: the state police were coming up with. 655 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: Think that. I think that's the most viable theory is 656 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 2: there was something going on that the target of this 657 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: was Tony Harris. 658 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: So this is not random, then, is what you think. 659 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 2: I believe it was not random. I believe the Harris 660 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 2: family was Tony Harris in particular, was targeted. I think 661 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 2: that's where the evidence would go. Yes, if you have 662 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: this theory that Tony Harris was targeted, why the hell 663 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 2: was he calling a newspaper editor to talk about prank 664 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: phone calls? I mean, that's a piece that doesn't really 665 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 2: seem to fit. Why does he want to drag this 666 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 2: out into the open. And if he's doing that, it 667 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 2: would seem to suggest he doesn't know who's targeting. He 668 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: doesn't know why, he doesn't know what's going on. So yeah, 669 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: pieces don't necessarily fit together and seem logical. Okay, So 670 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 2: what happens with the State Police, Well, they know it's 671 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: a gamble. It's sort of like the reminds you, sort 672 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: of the raid on Bin Laden. They have these pieces 673 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 2: that sort of say, well, we think it's a very 674 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: tall man living in a compound in Pakistan, and they 675 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 2: you know, there's all these little bits and pieces there. Well, 676 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 2: if they don't get Shirley and Michael tied to the house, 677 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: they're in trouble. If they come in there and there's 678 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 2: no evidence linking them to the crime, there's a big 679 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: problem and minimum a lot of civiliability. It's sort of 680 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: a gamble. You've got evidence LinkedIn surely to the house, 681 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 2: but really nothing. Michael is smart enough that he's a recluse. 682 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: He hadn't been out much. He hadn't been out much 683 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 2: in the weeks after this occurred. 684 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: And he picked up the Showcasings. I mean, this guy 685 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: really covered his tracks. 686 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, And according to the State Police, by the way, 687 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 2: one of the weapons that they found matched the ballistics 688 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: of the twenty two caliber. 689 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 3: It was his weapon. 690 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: So pretty conclusive evidence, right, And what is King charged 691 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: with exactly? 692 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 2: Burglary, arson, forgery, hindering prosecution. She's looking at a maximum 693 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: of it's a complicated formula, but probably I want to 694 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 2: say fifteen to thirty years roughly in jail. During the trial, 695 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 2: she is offered a plea if she admits to having 696 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: been in the Harris House, she'll get something like two 697 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 2: and a third to seven. She won't take the deal. No, 698 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 2: I wasn't there. She wouldn't do it. You're asking me 699 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 2: to lie. I'm not going to do it. 700 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: And part of this is based on They've got her 701 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: fingerprint on the gas can. 702 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 2: They've got her fingerprint on the can, They've got her 703 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 2: using the cards. That's pretty good evidence that she was 704 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 2: in the house. So you know, during the trial, David 705 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 2: Harding is the star. 706 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 3: He's a good looking guy. 707 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've ever seen his photograph, but 708 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 2: you know, women were crazy about David Harding. He comes 709 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 2: in and he you know, wearing a real nice suit, 710 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: and he's got the gas can there and the game 711 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: as can has been wiped clean. When you lift prince 712 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,959 Speaker 2: off an object you're supposed to preserve it. He said 713 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 2: he wiped the can to make it clean, and the 714 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 2: defense attorney jumped all over that and made a lot 715 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 2: of noise about it, but people just sort of wrote 716 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 2: it off. Basically, he testifies that the prints were one 717 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 2: on a larger panel and the other on the other 718 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: side on the larger panel. Think about how you pick 719 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 2: up a cereal box to pour the cereal. 720 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 3: This trial is being broadcast on live. 721 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 2: TV, which is you know, nineteen eighty nineteen ninety is 722 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 2: pretty remarkable on local television, and there's a closed circuit 723 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 2: TV out in the hallway, and the two senior investigators 724 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: are watching this testimony and Mgelligant says, I don't like 725 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 2: how he's testifying about those prints. He said there were 726 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 2: two prints on one side on a shorter panel. Now 727 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: he's talking about them being on the opposite side of 728 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 2: each other. I don't like this. Channeler says in response, 729 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 2: I don't want to hear this because I interrogated. Surely 730 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 2: it's me and one other guy. And as they took 731 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 2: her out of the room after hours of interrogating her, 732 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 2: we looked at each other and said, my god, if 733 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 2: it weren't for those prints. I believe she wasn't in 734 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 2: the house. So this conversation is going on while the 735 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: trial is going on. Two bosses and what I'm literally, 736 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 2: you know, it's like covering your ears literally says I 737 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 2: don't want to hear what I'm hearing because what Harding 738 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 2: is saying about the Prince doesn't make any sense. And 739 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 2: the other one saying, gee, we concluded if it weren't 740 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 2: for the Prince, she's innocent. So everything is pointing to 741 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. The cop, I mean, the cops looking at it, 742 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 2: saying ooh, we got a problem here, and they's just 743 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: sweeping under the rug. And she gets convicted, and she 744 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 2: gets sentenced, and she goes to prison. And then David 745 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 2: Harding applies for a job with the CIA and is 746 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: being interrogated as par that process and discloses that he 747 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 2: had fabricated evidence in another case, not in Surely's case, 748 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 2: in another case, and at that point the CIA says, 749 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 2: We're not going to hire this guy, and turns the tape, 750 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 2: or at least the transcript of the interview over to 751 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 2: the FBI, where it sits on somebody's desk for about 752 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: sixteen months. He retires, and then somebody else finds the 753 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 2: report and says, oh, we better notify the state police 754 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 2: about this one. So there was some negligence there. She 755 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: was in prison while the federal government had reason to 756 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: believe that David Harding was not a credible witness. 757 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 3: It was committing from my activity. 758 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: So ultimately what happens. 759 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,479 Speaker 2: Her conviction is what they call vacated, which basically says 760 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 2: the court says, Okay, let's. 761 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 3: Hit the reset button here. 762 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 2: David Harding's testimony is not credible, and ultimately she's offered 763 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 2: the opportunity to plead guilty to a misdemeanor for using 764 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 2: a credit card and she gets time. 765 00:40:58,440 --> 00:40:59,760 Speaker 1: Served, which she admits. 766 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 3: She oh, she always admitted she did that. 767 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: And she died a free woman just a few years ago. 768 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: What are lessons learned from this story? 769 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 2: The lessons are trust your instincts. Ask yourself, Am I 770 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 2: really listening to my instincts? Or am I listening to 771 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 2: the cover story that my brain wants to tell me 772 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 2: because it doesn't want me to be uncomfortable. There's some 773 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: people who just probably still gives them bad feelings to 774 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 2: go to that part of town, you know, at this point, 775 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 2: all these years later, it's just sort of an old story. 776 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 3: I think. 777 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,800 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 778 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 4: When Jenny went off to Hollywood their only daughter at 779 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 4: sixteen years old, moving to Hollywood, that was extremely difficult 780 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 4: for them to deal with. Hollywood found her, and as 781 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 4: it turned out, Jenny was not ready for it. 782 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 783 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the year this has 784 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexismirosi is 785 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. Ella Middleton 786 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does the composition, 787 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink designed the website. 788 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 789 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,399 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 790 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. If you are 791 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to 792 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: midroll dot com slash ads and if you know of 793 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: a historical true crime story that could use some attention 794 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 795 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe, and leave us 796 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get 797 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: your podcasts.