Speaker 1: Happy New Year, and welcome back to another edition of
Speaker 1: the Frida Egg Podcast. Thanks for all the support in
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. To kick things off in twenty eighteen, we'll
Speaker 1: have a two part podcast with golf course architect Jim Urbina.
Speaker 1: If you don't or haven't already, please subscribe to our
Speaker 1: podcast at iTunes and rate and review us. Now here's
Speaker 1: Jim Urbina.
Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 1: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a brid egg
Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Egg,
Speaker 2: Frida egg, bride.
Speaker 1: Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to another edition of the
Speaker 1: Frida Egg Podcast. Today I'm joined by golf course architect
Speaker 1: Jim Urbina.
Speaker 2: Jim, welcome on, Good morning Andy. Thanks for having me
Speaker 2: on wonderful day to talk about golf.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there is a bad day to
Speaker 1: talk about golf.
Speaker 2: Well, let's just say this is the best day to
Speaker 2: talk about golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Jim, you do a lot of You've done
Speaker 1: just you know, You've had a great career so far,
Speaker 1: and you've been doing quite a bit of restoration work
Speaker 1: at a lot of high profile places, so I think
Speaker 1: you know. My first question is how do you get
Speaker 1: a club to buy in on a restoration?
Speaker 2: You know, that's always tough because when I get that
Speaker 2: phone call, when somebody reaches out to me and asks
Speaker 2: me about a club, a particular club, a greens committee chairman,
Speaker 2: a club president, somebody who is associated with the club.
Speaker 2: They call me and asked me, what do you know
Speaker 2: about a particular golf course? Would you be interested in
Speaker 2: talking to us about it? I'm always skeptical. And the
Speaker 2: only reason I say skeptical is I'm always skeptical about
Speaker 2: what the intent is. What is your phone call about?
Speaker 2: What is your goal? And so when you ask that question,
Speaker 2: how do I get a club to buy in?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: The first question I always ask when we get into
Speaker 2: a roundtable discussion, or we gather as a group and
Speaker 2: a committee starts to interview me or ask me questions,
Speaker 2: the first question I always ask is do you embrace history?
Speaker 2: And the place goes very quiet. And so the reason
Speaker 2: the place goes quiet is because I'm not sure that
Speaker 2: they understand my question, or if they've even thought about
Speaker 2: the history that their club may be a part of.
Speaker 2: And so I figured that we ought to start with
Speaker 2: the interview by me interviewing them. If that makes sense,
Speaker 2: It makes a ton of sense.
Speaker 1: You know, you want to make sure that the committee
Speaker 1: is on the same page as you are, and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of thinking along the same lines. I think that
Speaker 1: leads me into question. I'm always curious it seems to
Speaker 1: be a polarizing topic with restoration. Do you believe in
Speaker 1: returning it back to the original place or restoring intent
Speaker 1: which might lead to moving bunkers into different places to
Speaker 1: adopt for technology.
Speaker 2: Depending on the architect or as Pete Die used to
Speaker 2: always tell me, Jim or not, architects were builders, and
Speaker 2: I've kind of embraced that ever since. I always think
Speaker 2: about what the club represents, what the goals are of
Speaker 2: the club, and really, if this club or a club
Speaker 2: that has asked me to talk about their golf course,
Speaker 2: their history, is it's something that it lends itself to
Speaker 2: a restoration, because really, not all golf courses should be restored,
Speaker 2: if that makes sense to you. And the reason I
Speaker 2: say that is because some golf courses just don't have
Speaker 2: the architectural beauty, the architectural strategy that would would interest me.
Speaker 2: And so when I talk to clubs and I ask
Speaker 2: them about the history, the reason I asked that question
Speaker 2: is because if they want to modernize it, if they
Speaker 2: want to modernize, modernize it by moving bunkers around, by
Speaker 2: changing greens, by flattening them, flattening them out, I generally
Speaker 2: would say that I'm not the person you should be
Speaker 2: talking to, and I would excuse myself from the interview
Speaker 2: process because of that. So I tend not to think
Speaker 2: about a golf course i'm interviewing for as a modernization project.
Speaker 2: But I tend to lean towards restoration. And I've enjoyed
Speaker 2: that the most and I've been the most successful at it.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. It's it's with us. I mean, the golf
Speaker 1: courses in the era we now are. I feel like
Speaker 1: Golden Age golf courses are more popular than they've ever
Speaker 1: been before. Why do you think that, Well.
Speaker 2: I just interviewed for a Golden Age design last actually
Speaker 2: a few days ago, and one of the questions one
Speaker 2: of the committee people asked me was, well, Jim, what
Speaker 2: can you do to this golf course to make it
Speaker 2: enjoyable for the high handicapped player as well as the
Speaker 2: scratch golfer. And my answer to him was emphatically, I
Speaker 2: don't think I could do both on this golf course.
Speaker 2: And that is the golf course that I'm interviewing for,
Speaker 2: because the golf course and its strategy and intent was
Speaker 2: different bunkers at different yardages off the t's with very
Speaker 2: ends degrees of a strategy involved. So if I was
Speaker 2: interviewing for a golf course that had bunker left, bunker
Speaker 2: right in the fairway at two hundred and sixty yards out,
Speaker 2: and they wanted to move bunker left and bunker right
Speaker 2: in the fairway to two eighty, that would be something
Speaker 2: that has no interest at all for me. But if
Speaker 2: you have a golf course that has short bunker right, medium,
Speaker 2: distant bunker left, center bunker three hundred yards out, additional
Speaker 2: left fairway bunker at let's say four to ninety, and
Speaker 2: I'm talking about a part five in this sense, if
Speaker 2: you can think with me that each one of those
Speaker 2: bunkers offers something different for every level of player, and
Speaker 2: that's the golf courses I seek out because before I
Speaker 2: interview for a job before before i'm before i'm I
Speaker 2: want to be considered. I want to make sure that
Speaker 2: the golf course has something for everybody. And if I
Speaker 2: could bring that out in the restoration, then I will
Speaker 2: have succeeded and I will have answered that gentleman's question
Speaker 2: that answered me, that asked me what can you do
Speaker 2: for all levels of players? And that's what I try
Speaker 2: to seek out. But very simplistic bunkering bunker left, bunker right,
Speaker 2: as I said, does not interest me. And that's why
Speaker 2: McDonald and rayner a lot of ross courses, the Babble
Speaker 2: Ink Club that I just restored back in twenty fifteen
Speaker 2: and sixteen with Scott Povoco. Those are the golf courses
Speaker 2: that interest me because they have bunkers for all levels
Speaker 2: of players. But generally they get filled in because someone
Speaker 2: deems them uninteresting because they're only two hundred and ten
Speaker 2: yards off the team money, isn't.
Speaker 1: It it is? I was. You know, those ones that
Speaker 1: are two hundred and ten yards off the tee provide
Speaker 1: you know, thrill and interest for the senior or the
Speaker 1: lady golfer. Now where they has to be you know
Speaker 1: there for you know, better players but that was something
Speaker 1: I was really impressed with when I walked around Babblink
Speaker 1: this summer. Was you know the par five that runs
Speaker 1: along the what is it the south property line that
Speaker 1: has you know.
Speaker 2: Bunker left number five, a.
Speaker 1: Center line bunker. And I think you moved to green there?
Speaker 1: Am I right?
Speaker 2: The green had actually moved was moved by another architect
Speaker 2: in the eighties, I believe, and I simply recaptured the
Speaker 2: essence of Allison uh with that green site location, making
Speaker 2: it feel more consistent with the other sixteen greens that
Speaker 2: had not been touched since nineteen twenty two by Allison.
Speaker 2: So yes, you are correct. In that hole. It had
Speaker 2: several bunkers, each one at a different angle, each one
Speaker 2: at a different yardage off the tee. And you want
Speaker 2: to talk about a hole that embraces all levels of players,
Speaker 2: that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, A very very cool hole in terms of with
Speaker 1: you know, restoring golf courses. And let's just say say,
Speaker 1: I'm you know, a member, I'm I'm the head of
Speaker 1: a greens committee at a you know, Golden Age golf course,
Speaker 1: and you know we want to start to you know,
Speaker 1: get interest in restoration and we were going to just
Speaker 1: take the first step, like what's usually what you see
Speaker 1: across courses, the smallest and easiest thing that most clubs
Speaker 1: could do to start to show what a restoration, how
Speaker 1: it could help the club and get more people to
Speaker 1: buy in.
Speaker 2: You know, I wish more people ask me that in
Speaker 2: the interview process. One of the first things that I
Speaker 2: always look at when I walk onto a golf course.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the very first thing I look at
Speaker 2: is the mowing presentation. And I've been doing that since
Speaker 2: my early days at the Valley Club of Montecito in California,
Speaker 2: which I started working on in nineteen. You know, ninety six,
Speaker 2: ninety five, ninety six seems like forever ago. And when
Speaker 2: I look at the mowing presentation, I can tell that
Speaker 2: it has evolved, and we can go there if you
Speaker 2: want during the interview about the evolution of golf courses.
Speaker 2: But I noticed that the Valley Club of Monosita the
Speaker 2: way the golf course was being presented, and if we
Speaker 2: could recapture what it used to look like. And I
Speaker 2: used the term look like because I look at old
Speaker 2: aerials and ground photos. For some reason, Alistair mackenzie loved
Speaker 2: to document himself on the golf course, and I'm thankful
Speaker 2: for that because I have great ground photos of the
Speaker 2: Valley Club of Montecito, I have great ground photos of
Speaker 2: Pasa Tempo with Mackenzie and Marion Hollins and Bobby Jones
Speaker 2: playing the golf course, so I was able to recapture
Speaker 2: the mowing presentation. And I always tell the clubs the
Speaker 2: first thing you could do, the cheapest thing you could do,
Speaker 2: is just represent how you mow the golf course, and
Speaker 2: a lot of superintendents would be more than happy to
Speaker 2: try that and show the club what could be done
Speaker 2: to recapture the strategy and the intent of these Golden
Speaker 2: Age designs. Just mowing the grass. Is It's that simple?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I mean that's one of the things
Speaker 1: you notice always when you look at an old aerial
Speaker 1: of almost every Golden age golf course that hasn't been restored,
Speaker 1: you know, in the recent time, is that you see
Speaker 1: that the mowing lines on the greens and the fairways
Speaker 1: are just considerably smaller. So, you know, say, in the
Speaker 1: case of like a Chicago area club where you have
Speaker 1: bluegrass rough bent grass fairways, what do you suggest how
Speaker 1: do you suggest you combat that if you wanted to
Speaker 1: extend out the fairways.
Speaker 2: Every superintendent does it differently, and I generally defer to
Speaker 2: them with how they want to approach the recapturing of
Speaker 2: that different types of grasses Pola Rye bent fairways versus
Speaker 2: a bluegrass rough as you described. I've had the opportunity
Speaker 2: to work at two clubs in Chicago, the glen View
Speaker 2: Club with Brian Moore, excellent superintendent and as you know,
Speaker 2: the Bobbyling Club and Scott pavelkel Hey.
Speaker 1: I actually caddied at glen View for like three years too, so.
Speaker 2: You would be one of many caddies. They have an
Speaker 2: excellent caddy program and one of the greatest things about
Speaker 2: the glen View Club, not to get off track I apologize,
Speaker 2: is that they don't they there is peer pressure to
Speaker 2: walk by the membership, and there is peer pressure by
Speaker 2: the membership to take a caddy, and generally you don't
Speaker 2: take a caddy, somebody's gonna be staring you down wondering
Speaker 2: why you don't have a caddy on your bag, And
Speaker 2: for me, that's pretty impressive. But that speaks highly of
Speaker 2: the chick Evans room that they have at the Glenview
Speaker 2: Club and how they support the Caddy program, which I
Speaker 2: think is fabulous in the Chicago area. But to get
Speaker 2: back to grasses, every superintendent does it different. Some just
Speaker 2: mow it down and let it mature and evolve into
Speaker 2: a tight grass a rye a poa. Some sowed them out,
Speaker 2: some sought out the lines that I have repainted. In
Speaker 2: the case of of course, I'm that I'm restoring. In
Speaker 2: Long Island, New York, rockfille LYNX, the superintendent Luke Knutson,
Speaker 2: he uses the plugs from the fairways and spreads them
Speaker 2: out into the newly area, the newly prepared area for fairway,
Speaker 2: and within six months he's got the same looking fairway
Speaker 2: as he had prior to the to the restoration. So
Speaker 2: it's amazing how each superintendent attacks the situation differently, but
Speaker 2: really it's all grass, and each one would tell you
Speaker 2: something different. He uses plugs to restore the fairways, and
Speaker 2: when you go back the next year, you'd never know
Speaker 2: where we expanded the fairways and where we took out
Speaker 2: the bluegrass rough So everyone does it different.
Speaker 1: That's it. I would love to see more people do that.
Speaker 1: And obviously sometimes you have you have trees and poor
Speaker 1: planting in the way but you know you can. It
Speaker 1: makes such a difference because it adds so much strategy
Speaker 1: back to the golf course.
Speaker 2: Do you and you know Andy it it can't be
Speaker 2: just the mowing presentation. We start with that, but really
Speaker 2: it's it's uh, it's making sure the trees are the
Speaker 2: trees that are planted too close to the fairways. As
Speaker 2: part of my what I talk about in the evolution
Speaker 2: of the golf course, trees that are planted too close,
Speaker 2: bushes that are planted too close, rose gardens that are
Speaker 2: planted too close. All of those things are taking into
Speaker 2: consideration before we we we mark out and flag the
Speaker 2: new mowing lines and so that the the the new
Speaker 2: turf areas and the new fairways have every opportunity to
Speaker 2: grow healthy grass, much like the center of the fairway
Speaker 2: has done for years and years and years.
Speaker 1: So we've talked about a handful of Golden Age architects
Speaker 1: already that you've you've worked on. I'm curious and it's
Speaker 1: a question I ask almost every hour architect that comes
Speaker 1: on here, who do you feel is the most underappreciated
Speaker 1: architect from the Golden Age.
Speaker 2: I'm selfish in this statement, but it's someone that I
Speaker 2: just think does not get enough credit, and that's Perry
Speaker 2: Maxwell and his son Press. I think that Perry Maxwell
Speaker 2: was more than capable to be his own designer of
Speaker 2: record on many golf courses in the Midwest, which he
Speaker 2: does have his name attached to him, but it's always
Speaker 2: always seems to be portrayed the Midwest, or as the
Speaker 2: book was written about him, The Midwest Associate. Christopher Klouser
Speaker 2: wrote Life and Work of Perry Maxwell, The Midwest Associate.
Speaker 2: But to me, he was more than that. He was
Speaker 2: helping Mackenzie create some of the coolest things in golf,
Speaker 2: Crystal Down, Augusta National, he was at Pine Valley. I mean,
Speaker 2: he was in a lot of places, helping a lot
Speaker 2: of architects look good. And I just wish, I just
Speaker 2: wish that he would get his due or more people
Speaker 2: would talk about him, because I'm fascinated by his greens,
Speaker 2: and I'm fascinated what he did with the nine holes
Speaker 2: at Prairie Dunes and eventually what Press Maxwell did with
Speaker 2: the additional nine holes. It's one of my top five
Speaker 2: golf courses. I think everybody should see it, Prairie Dunes,
Speaker 2: and I think that everybody should get a chance to
Speaker 2: see the famous greens of Maxwell. Perry Maxwell and his
Speaker 2: son Press, who had had a chance to interview before
Speaker 2: he'd passed away in Colorado. Press Maxwell, I learned a
Speaker 2: lot about his father, Perry, and I just wish he
Speaker 2: got more credit.
Speaker 1: I can't remember who I had on the podcast, but
Speaker 1: they also mentioned that Perry Maxwell, you know, as the
Speaker 1: most underappreciated because his career was most hindered by the
Speaker 1: Great Depression. You know, when he really reached his height
Speaker 1: was you know, when the least golf course construction was happening, right.
Speaker 2: And if just and just think if he would have
Speaker 2: been a few years earlier, the rowing twenties, what he
Speaker 2: could have done. And not that he doesn't have something
Speaker 2: to show for his name. He does. He has golf
Speaker 2: courses out there that have his name on it. But
Speaker 2: people tend to want to flatten out his greens and
Speaker 2: they want to alter his look of the golf courses.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm trying my best to stand up
Speaker 2: for every Maxwell I can, as well as other architects.
Speaker 2: Dave Axlan, who works for Core in Crenshaw, wonderful man.
Speaker 2: He has done a lot of work at Perry doing.
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful job, and I always consider him a
Speaker 2: friend and I enjoy his work. He has He has
Speaker 2: done his best to protect the look of prairie dunes,
Speaker 2: to make sure nobody messes with it because people always
Speaker 2: want to kind of flatten out the greens, and that
Speaker 2: really was the character of Perry Maxwell mostly mostly, and
Speaker 2: appreciate it. But anytime I'm struggling for a style of
Speaker 2: green that i'd like to build, I always go back
Speaker 2: to my Maxwell roots and I create one or two
Speaker 2: inside roll greens. I did that at Sabotic and uh
Speaker 2: and Uh. It's something that I enjoy. I wish more
Speaker 2: people appreciated.
Speaker 1: It's usually the external contours. The big bold external contours
Speaker 1: get all the kind of praise, and you know, they
Speaker 1: catch the eye. But I always am impressed with you know,
Speaker 1: the great architects. Like one that sticks out is like
Speaker 1: how SETH. Rayner used internal contours and he had these big,
Speaker 1: bold external ones, but these subtle spine and humps and
Speaker 1: bumps in the in the green were the ones that
Speaker 1: you know, really Wrecktavic.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think Rayner and well, you're talking about
Speaker 2: one of my other favorite guys. Seth Rayner. But I
Speaker 2: think Maxwell's little inside roles we were underappreciated. I think
Speaker 2: the bold inside roles of Rayner which were much more
Speaker 2: apparent McDonald and Rayner, but Maxwell, just a little thing
Speaker 2: sometimes make a big difference.
Speaker 1: So I'm assuming, say you're you could transport back to
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, We'll say, and you could have either
Speaker 1: Robert Hunter working with you on the Mackenzie's other famed associate,
Speaker 1: or Perry Maxwell. Who would you choose? Maxwell?
Speaker 2: Wow, great question. Nobody's ever asked me that. They always
Speaker 2: talk about the Lee guys, and for me, I think
Speaker 2: the the guys in the background are the forgotten ones.
Speaker 2: And luckily Robert Hunter was able to publish a book,
Speaker 2: The Links by Robert Hunter, which gave him credit and fame.
Speaker 2: And Perry Maxwell, certainly with Old Town Golf Club that
Speaker 2: Core and Crenshaw expertly restored, and Prairie Dunes and some
Speaker 2: of the other places that Perry Maxwell worked on, certainly
Speaker 2: had credit. But it's the guys that you never hear about,
Speaker 2: and one of the one of the group of people
Speaker 2: that you never hear about. And again I'm digressing, going
Speaker 2: away from your question, but Perry Maxwell had a gentleman
Speaker 2: by the name of I can't remember his name, Woods
Speaker 2: Ray Woods. Woods was a guy that helped Maxwell create
Speaker 2: some of the best golf courses ever. And I remember
Speaker 2: interviewing Press Maxwell at the Pinehurst Club in Denver, Colorado,
Speaker 2: that's where he was a member. Press Maxwell, I asked
Speaker 2: him how they built their greens and how they would
Speaker 2: go about the greens, and he talked about the Woods
Speaker 2: Brothers and how they would go out there and they
Speaker 2: would stand in the fairway and they would, you know,
Speaker 2: eyeball how they wanted the green to look, and they
Speaker 2: would build it and talk about it. And I asked
Speaker 2: Press Maxwell, I said, did the Wood brothers ever survey
Speaker 2: their greens? And he said, no, they never did. All
Speaker 2: they did was just eyeballing, and if it looked like
Speaker 2: it wasn't too steep, and with the green speeds of
Speaker 2: that time, if they didn't look too steep, that they
Speaker 2: were good. And so Perry Maxwell had the Wood Brothers,
Speaker 2: Mackenzie had Robert Hunter. But who would I use. I'd
Speaker 2: probably use them both because the more the merrier, and
Speaker 2: if your common goal with Robert Hunter and Perry Maxwell
Speaker 2: as our as my associate. If the common goal was
Speaker 2: the good of the golf course and building eighteen wonderful holes,
Speaker 2: not great holes, wonderful holes, that I'd use them both.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure that each one of them would lend
Speaker 2: their expertise at the right time, at the right place.
Speaker 2: Perry Maxwell maybe on the greens, Robert Hunter on the bunkers,
Speaker 2: which I believe Robert Hunter had all, not all, but
Speaker 2: most ninety eight percent of the credit of the beauty
Speaker 2: of Mackenzie's bunkers because every golf course of Robert Hunter
Speaker 2: worked on. Those bunkers were pretty dog gone good and
Speaker 2: they're not just jigsaws, but the way they layered them,
Speaker 2: Robert Hunter had a lot to do with that. So
Speaker 2: I'd use them both. Is that fair or is that
Speaker 2: a cop out?
Speaker 1: It's kind of a cop out, But you know, you
Speaker 1: at least gave what you'd use each of them for.
Speaker 1: So I think nobody, nobody would agree or nobody would
Speaker 1: disagree with the Hunter's bunkering and Maxwell's greens. I mean,
Speaker 1: you get the both worlds.
Speaker 2: That's an all star cast right there. Wouldn't even me
Speaker 2: Jim or Beaner. You put those two guys together and
Speaker 2: be super duper well.
Speaker 1: They you know, they got to have a CEO, which
Speaker 1: you know, McKenzie was the CEO.
Speaker 2: So McDonald was the CEO. They were both based on
Speaker 2: everything I read, they were pretty egotistical. So you I
Speaker 2: guess you need that, don't you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody's got to be the boss.
Speaker 2: Uh, somebody's got to be the boss.
Speaker 1: So you know, and you've worked with worked on, you know,
Speaker 1: Pasa Tiempo, the Valley Club with with mackenzie. You know,
Speaker 1: everybody loves his bunkering, you know, the deceptions always talked
Speaker 1: about and the playability. What aspect of mackenzie do you
Speaker 1: think kind of gets swept under the rug is is?
Speaker 1: But was really great about his designs.
Speaker 2: The beauty, which, as you know, he's been quoted many
Speaker 2: times in many articles. Any architect worth his salt, and
Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing, any architect worth his salt realizes that the
Speaker 2: beauty of the golf course is as important as the strategy.
Speaker 2: And what better place to stand and say that statement
Speaker 2: than the sixteenth t at Cyprus Point, or the first
Speaker 2: tee at Pasa Tempo overlooking the peninsula, or the Valley
Speaker 2: Club of Monecito standing on the fifteenth green walking over
Speaker 2: to the sixteenth t and seeing the Pacific Ocean. Easy
Speaker 2: to say that, but really, what I think that a
Speaker 2: lot of people think of a Mackenzie and I now
Speaker 2: know Robert Hunter bunker is they think if they just
Speaker 2: built a jigsaw bunker, somehow that's a Mackenzie bunker, and
Speaker 2: that is so far from the truth. One of the
Speaker 2: things I learned working at the Valley Club of Montecito
Speaker 2: is the way that Robert Hunter and Mackenzie layer at
Speaker 2: the bunkers and what they did. And I'd love to
Speaker 2: take you back there someday with me to the Valley
Speaker 2: Club of Montecito, and that'd be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: I'd show you the layering. And I realized that when
Speaker 2: I was restoring the bunkers, I thought, man, these bunkers
Speaker 2: are like fitting right next to each other, even though
Speaker 2: they're ninety and one hundred yards apart. And I started
Speaker 2: to when I was reshaping them. And so I don't
Speaker 2: forget I had very talented shapers helping me all along
Speaker 2: the way. But let's go there. Sometime later in the interview,
Speaker 2: when I started to realize that these features, these bunkers,
Speaker 2: they weren't just jigsaws, but they were fingers that were
Speaker 2: layered on top of each other so that at the
Speaker 2: right angle and at the right location in the fairway,
Speaker 2: one bunker would look like he was on top of
Speaker 2: the other. And the Valley Club kept doing that over
Speaker 2: and over and over on thirteenth hole, on the sixth hole,
Speaker 2: on the fifth hole, on the seventeenth hole, and I
Speaker 2: started to realize, this isn't just happenstance. They weren't just
Speaker 2: winging it out here. There was somebody standing there making
Speaker 2: sure that was the right elevation. And that's what I
Speaker 2: learned about a Mackenzie Hunter bunker, that they weren't just jigsaws,
Speaker 2: and they weren't just beautiful. They were intricate. They were integral,
Speaker 2: they were attached to each other, and in certain parts
Speaker 2: of the round of golf, when you stood in certain
Speaker 2: parts of the fairway, they were actually attached to each other.
Speaker 2: And the best one I could show you is on
Speaker 2: the fifth hole at the Valley Club of Monte Sego,
Speaker 2: because it's got about a six percent grade going uphill,
Speaker 2: and so the bunkers at eye level just seemed to
Speaker 2: be layered perfectly, and a right center fairway bunker if
Speaker 2: you're standing in the right location, looked like it matches
Speaker 2: up to the right greenside bunker. And if you're on
Speaker 2: the other side of the fairway, that center bunker looks
Speaker 2: like it matches up to the left greenside bunker. And
Speaker 2: I thought, this is beyond cool. This is so much different.
Speaker 2: And every time I would laugh when somebody would talk
Speaker 2: about a Mackenzie bunker and just show a jigsaw, I said,
Speaker 2: if they only knew.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I feel like that's you know, with almost everything,
Speaker 1: there's so so many people try. You know, Mackenzie's obviously
Speaker 1: got beautiful bunkers, and what happens is people try and
Speaker 1: mimic them. But you know, there's something about the original
Speaker 1: and there's so much that goes into something in somebody's
Speaker 1: head that's you know that nobody could really replicate that
Speaker 1: except for you know, people that really understand it at
Speaker 1: a at a very deep level and agree, hey, this
Speaker 1: is full of Mackenzie bunkers, but you're missing the point.
Speaker 1: And a I think Bill Corr, when he was on
Speaker 1: on the podcast, was talking about how you know Pete
Speaker 1: Die changed golf course architecture twice and what happened was
Speaker 1: you know, after Harbortown, you saw a lot of courses
Speaker 1: look like Harbortown. But then you know the the those
Speaker 1: courses that looked like it weren't Harbortown because they were
Speaker 1: missing that, you know, the strategy and the subtleness of
Speaker 1: the die designs.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I totally agree with Bill cor One
Speaker 2: of my someday Andy, when I grew up, I want
Speaker 2: to be like Bill Corr. I think a lot of people,
Speaker 2: but the Valet Club of Monocito, I'll never forget. Standing
Speaker 2: on the fifteenth Fairway and I was restoring the upper
Speaker 2: level bunker behind the fifteenth Green Aposta Temple, I wish
Speaker 2: I had a photo you could put up and show
Speaker 2: because the Greens chairman at the time, mister Anderson, said, Jim,
Speaker 2: why are you restoring that one? That's still a lot
Speaker 2: of play And I said, well, because that bucker is
Speaker 2: not really for the fifteenth hole. He laughed at me,
Speaker 2: and I said, come on, let's go over to the
Speaker 2: eighteen tea box. And I took him over to the
Speaker 2: eighteen tea box and I showed him how the layering
Speaker 2: of bunkers going up the left side of eighteen at
Speaker 2: the Valley Club, layered in perfectly with the right green
Speaker 2: side bunkers and the left green side bunkers on fifteen
Speaker 2: and made the upper bunker above fifteen be a part
Speaker 2: of eighteen. And he says, I would have never noticed that,
Speaker 2: and I said, that's why it's here. And that's the
Speaker 2: beauty of Mackenzie. And you see it at Cyprus Point
Speaker 2: whole number eleven. You see it at the Claremont Club
Speaker 2: in Berkeley, Oakland, California that I'm working on right now.
Speaker 2: You see it at the Valley Club, Montcito, you see
Speaker 2: it at Pasa Tempo. It's that layering on top of
Speaker 2: beauty that make Mackenzie and Hunter bunkers so wonderful to restore.
Speaker 2: And you know, that was a life lessons and I'm
Speaker 2: so lucky to have been able to re store Posit
Speaker 2: Temple because it taught me a lot about scale, It
Speaker 2: taught me a lot about deception, it taught me a
Speaker 2: lot about layering, It taught me a lot about strategy.
Speaker 2: And I thought, this is my open book education on golf,
Speaker 2: just by working and restoring places like the Valley Club
Speaker 2: and Posa Temple.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I usually say to people that if they
Speaker 1: want to get into architecture, you got to go play
Speaker 1: like a really great course and then you'll feel enlightened.
Speaker 2: And not only play it andy, as you know, you
Speaker 2: have to walk it from side to side, and you
Speaker 2: have to you have to experience it from all levels.
Speaker 2: That's why I crack up. I just can't believe somebody
Speaker 2: can rate a golf course tell you all about it
Speaker 2: in one visit.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: These golf courses are way more complete. The Golden Age
Speaker 2: golf courses are way more complicated than that. And for
Speaker 2: somebody to stand on the sixteenth green at San Francisco
Speaker 2: Golf Club golf course, I had a chance to restore
Speaker 2: all the greens and some of the bunker, to stand
Speaker 2: on that green and say, oh, this green is you know,
Speaker 2: front to back or back to front, and you know,
Speaker 2: a pretty good hole. They don't even understand that the
Speaker 2: nuances of that green. And until you've worked on it,
Speaker 2: and until you've played it a hundred times, until you've
Speaker 2: put it in all different directions, do you understand the increastacies,
Speaker 2: intricacies And for some way, for someone to look at
Speaker 2: a golf course and one day in a four or
Speaker 2: five hour time period. Say, eh, that's an average golf course.
Speaker 2: I just I cringe when I think that golf course
Speaker 2: deserves more attention than that. If that is a statement
Speaker 2: to say it deserves way more attention than that, that's.
Speaker 1: I think walking a golf course you learn way more
Speaker 1: about it than I mean almost golf digest raiders or
Speaker 1: any raiders should have to walk courses instead of playing,
Speaker 1: because walking them, they'll learn way more. You know, walk
Speaker 1: it with a wedge and a putter.
Speaker 2: You know, or a seven I are in my favorite club, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because that really tells you about what is available. And
Speaker 2: you know, every game, everybody's game is different. You know,
Speaker 2: some people tend to play the right side of the
Speaker 2: fairway versus the left, some people tend to stay on
Speaker 2: the ground, and some people hitting up the air. And
Speaker 2: I just wonder, I just wonder if, as you said,
Speaker 2: if they walk the golf course, and a lot of
Speaker 2: people don't have that time nowadays, but if they walk
Speaker 2: the golf course, got it like of a kind of
Speaker 2: like a preview before they actually played it, how much
Speaker 2: better it would be? And I think people would appreciate
Speaker 2: designs more and not just think that it's just another
Speaker 2: eighteen holes with fifty bunkers.
Speaker 1: I think if they had to walk the course, or
Speaker 1: say they had to walk the course twice instead of
Speaker 1: playing it, which would probably take about the same time,
Speaker 1: they'd have a lot less raiders.
Speaker 2: Well, they may have a lot less raiders and a
Speaker 2: lot less people visiting. You know, how many people want
Speaker 2: to go around and see ten golf courses in a day.
Speaker 2: I know people who I'm going to play thirty six
Speaker 2: holes today or fifty four holes today, And I think
Speaker 2: to myself, why not just give that golf course that
Speaker 2: first one you have, give it fifty four holes of
Speaker 2: your time and it might be really, really good.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I agree. It's like I've found myself, you know,
Speaker 1: more and more thinking like, you know, you need to
Speaker 1: really see a place a few times before you really
Speaker 1: pass judgment on it, because it's not fair to you,
Speaker 1: you know, like that's fair, Yeah, especially if you're trying
Speaker 1: to compare it to somewhere where you've you know, played
Speaker 1: six seven.
Speaker 2: Times, Yes, and it's play you played Cyprus Point six
Speaker 2: or seven times because it's so beautiful, and you play
Speaker 2: the golf course Inland just from there from Cyprus Point
Speaker 2: once and try to compare the two. You can't do it. No, No,
Speaker 2: there's no way, because you'll always lean into the beauty
Speaker 2: and the six or seven times of memorable moments, and
Speaker 2: you give another golf course four hours of your time
Speaker 2: on the way. I don't know, man, it's hard for
Speaker 2: me to buy that.
Speaker 1: It leads me into a question. You know, with with
Speaker 1: all your extensive California Mackenzie experience, and how would you
Speaker 1: split ten rounds between all the Mackenzie California courses?
Speaker 2: Ten rounds? That's all I got.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a tough one.
Speaker 2: Do you it's not fair?
Speaker 1: Do you want twenty? Uh?
Speaker 2: No, I'll do ten. I would say that I would
Speaker 2: play Cypress Point twice. All right, yep, that's a good start.
Speaker 2: Everybody would I'll tell you what a lot of people
Speaker 2: would laugh and say I wouldn't play it twice. I'd
Speaker 2: play it ten times and forget the rest of them.
Speaker 2: But that's okay, you asked me, so I'm gonna tell you.
Speaker 2: I would play the Valley Club twice. I would play
Speaker 2: passa Tempo twice. I would play the Claremont Club. Once
Speaker 2: you got to see the Clermont Club, have you ever
Speaker 2: seen it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had made my first golf trip to San Francisco
Speaker 1: this fall, so I got to get back out to
Speaker 1: San Francisco. I only had three days, so I didn't
Speaker 1: get out.
Speaker 2: There go see the Claremont Club. It's a redo of
Speaker 2: a golf course by Alis from McKenzie and Robert Hunter.
Speaker 2: Some people Sean Tolly mackenzie historian who works at the
Speaker 2: Metal Club, would say that maybe more Robert Hunter at
Speaker 2: the Claremont Club than mackenzie. But they do have a
Speaker 2: photo McKenzie drinking a pint with Donald Ross on the
Speaker 2: ninth hole at Claremont, so he had to be there
Speaker 2: at least a little while. It is cool. It's a
Speaker 2: great photo. I have it up on my wall. It
Speaker 2: looks down on my computer. It's Ross and McKenzie with
Speaker 2: a pint with all the workers and people at the
Speaker 2: Claremont Club. It's great. But you got to see Claremont
Speaker 2: for the crossing fairways, probably the only club in America
Speaker 2: that still has crossing fairways. I would play the Metal
Speaker 2: Club once. Wonderful golf course, great, a great walk in
Speaker 2: a beautiful setting. You know you gotta go to the
Speaker 2: Caw Club. Even though some people say Uh, well, it
Speaker 2: wasn't Arthur av McCann golf course, redone by Mackenzie, redone
Speaker 2: by Kyle Phillips. But you gotta you gotta go to
Speaker 2: the cal Club. Green Hills has wonderful history. I don't
Speaker 2: know if I would stop there. You gotta go to
Speaker 2: north Woods to play the nine hole? Is it Mackenzie
Speaker 2: did up there in the in the in Napa Valley.
Speaker 2: But I would split between north Woods and Sharp Park.
Speaker 2: And you may ask why Sharp Park? And many people
Speaker 2: would say why Sharp Park. At that time when that
Speaker 2: golf course was built and it being a public golf
Speaker 2: course today, it was probably one of the coolest settings
Speaker 2: in California for golf. You could almost walk on the
Speaker 2: beach playing the two holes going to the south before
Speaker 2: they were washed away. And I've played golf there with
Speaker 2: bowl Linx. I've played golf there with the group trying
Speaker 2: to restore it. I played golf there with Ron Whitten
Speaker 2: when we walked and shared a golf bag, and we've
Speaker 2: all stood there and thought what this place could be like,
Speaker 2: what it was like, I'm sorry, what it was like
Speaker 2: before the dyke was installed. And I think everybody who's
Speaker 2: a Mackenzie or at least a Golden Age architect history
Speaker 2: buff should go see Shark Parking and stand there and
Speaker 2: think what it was at one time and it's and
Speaker 2: it's in the history of golf architecture. How cool it
Speaker 2: would be? Did that total ten?
Speaker 1: I think yeah? I mean I think Northwoods you could
Speaker 1: since it's only nine. I've seen pictures of that place
Speaker 1: looks so cool.
Speaker 2: Yes, you gotta go.
Speaker 1: Too many places. I gotta go do just a pure
Speaker 1: Mackenzie tour of the West Coast.
Speaker 2: It's yep. The so with that, So that's my ten.
Speaker 2: I'm sure everybody would tell you something different. Andy, you
Speaker 2: would probably come up with different numbers, but that's my ten.
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of golf courses. Everybody has a little
Speaker 1: bit different taste, and everybody has a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: different view on what what's good and what's what's great
Speaker 1: and uh, but all of them are are awesome. I
Speaker 1: was positive Tiempo God, I've I've told some people this,
Speaker 1: but you know, that place has got to be one of,
Speaker 1: if not the most architecturally sound course that anybody can
Speaker 1: go play.
Speaker 2: Unbelievable place. And I've been lucky to be associated with
Speaker 2: Pasa Temple for twenty years. I'm actually going back there
Speaker 2: in January. We're going to continue to do some tea
Speaker 2: box work. And somebody would say, well, why is the
Speaker 2: tea box is so important? The starting ground is so important.
Speaker 2: And if you've ever read in Robert Hunter's book The Links,
Speaker 2: he talks about in a chapter how a golf course
Speaker 2: should start, and he said that the golf course should
Speaker 2: start and finish in the same manner, as close to
Speaker 2: the ground as possible, and with the same intent. And
Speaker 2: that's again a paraphrase. But I working with the superintendent
Speaker 2: and the Greens Committee at Passa Temple, we're going to
Speaker 2: try to get some of that flavor back in the
Speaker 2: teen grounds again. Working there for twenty years with the Greens,
Speaker 2: expansion of the Greens, it's been a treat. You are right,
Speaker 2: it's an architectural genius golf course using the barancas. Could
Speaker 2: I have put Pasa Champel in front of Cypress Point probably,
Speaker 2: I probably could have played three or four times at
Speaker 2: Pasa Tempo and twice at Cypress in the Valley Club,
Speaker 2: But I just you can't pass up the beauty of
Speaker 2: Cypress Point. But Pasa Champel has everything that any golfer
Speaker 2: would want in architectural design and strategy and what a
Speaker 2: place as you as you have attested to, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Think I you know, you look at it. They get
Speaker 1: so many rounds a year. But if if you and
Speaker 1: it's and for that's another reason why it's almost unfair
Speaker 1: to compare golf courses like that, Like because if that
Speaker 1: golf course, if it was a really exclusive club that
Speaker 1: got ten thousand rounds a year, you could do you
Speaker 1: know a little bit more, you know, stuff that would
Speaker 1: probably make it one of the five to ten best
Speaker 1: golf courses in America.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, there is a point in which you
Speaker 2: have to decide, and you're a point about being private
Speaker 2: versus public. I think the bonus about it about it
Speaker 2: being public is more people get to experience it. And
Speaker 2: for me, the more people that get to see Possa
Speaker 2: Temple and Mackenzie and the Hunter's genius the better. Maybe
Speaker 2: don't maybe there's just not enough exposure to other Mackenzie courses,
Speaker 2: But because Possa Temple is public, more people get to
Speaker 2: play in. So I think it's a good thing. But yes,
Speaker 2: could you do something different? Yeah, you probably could not
Speaker 2: much different. You couldn't change much, but man the ability
Speaker 2: for the public to play Possa Temple what a place,
Speaker 2: and that we were able to keep the golf course
Speaker 2: open during that whole time of restoring it, which was
Speaker 2: a key point. That was the key point to this.
Speaker 2: And you brought this question up at the beginning of
Speaker 2: our discussion. You said, what was the what was the
Speaker 2: how you get the club to buy into something? Well,
Speaker 2: the intent to Pasa Tempo. The statement says nothing will
Speaker 2: be done to this golf course. That doesn't represent what
Speaker 2: Pasa Tempo and Mackenzie's strategies, designs intent was. And I
Speaker 2: used the old aeriel, I used the ground photos and
Speaker 2: that was my intent from the beginning. That was the
Speaker 2: club's intent from the beginning. And when we go back
Speaker 2: and do the tee and grounds next year, we will
Speaker 2: add one more step to the restoration of Pasa Tempo
Speaker 2: and people will just love the look. They still they
Speaker 2: already liked the look. You want am I kid myself,
Speaker 2: but we just add one more step to that to
Speaker 2: complete Mackenzie's dream where he passed away, where his house
Speaker 2: was located on the sixth hole, as you well aware,
Speaker 2: and it really is a Hall of Fame of holes
Speaker 2: for Mackenzie.
Speaker 1: So we we've talked about a lot of great golf
Speaker 1: courses and I and we've actually touched on the on
Speaker 1: the idea of scale and design. Do you think it's
Speaker 1: a necessity for you know, really great golf design.
Speaker 2: Scale yep.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: I would have said scale was important. Uh, the big
Speaker 2: scale was important because my favorite golf course, the National
Speaker 2: Golf Links of America, is big in scale. But there's
Speaker 2: something about having a border of of or a baranka
Speaker 2: or a tree line that invokes just a little more
Speaker 2: touch of strategy that I don't think you can downplay.
Speaker 2: So is scale important, Yes, if you were building big
Speaker 2: scale golf courses, I think they're phenomenal looking and fun
Speaker 2: to play and look at. Do I discount golf courses
Speaker 2: that are maybe a little bit smaller in scale, maybe
Speaker 2: a little narrower and playing corridor with Yeah, maybe so.
Speaker 2: But I think that Pasa Temple on a little smaller
Speaker 2: scale offers everything that the big scale National Golf Links
Speaker 2: of America offers. I think you could have both. I
Speaker 2: think mixing and matching is important, opening up fairways in
Speaker 2: between holes. I have a great old photo again on
Speaker 2: my office wall of the first hole of Pasa Tempo
Speaker 2: when there were no trees in between one and nine
Speaker 2: and it was one big open playing field. That's pretty
Speaker 2: big scale, and that's what mackenzie was working on when
Speaker 2: he was working at Pasa Temple. You know, trees evolve,
Speaker 2: they grow up. Narrow was the corridors. But I think
Speaker 2: you could have both. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it does. I think it's uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it seems like with the modern new design, everything's going
Speaker 1: to massive scale, expansive fair ways. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of the pendulum swinging in each direction.
Speaker 1: It seems like with golf design, and I'm just you know,
Speaker 1: I think it could get too big.
Speaker 2: You know, we built Old McDonald for Mike Kaiger at
Speaker 2: the Band and Dunes Resort. I was involved with Pacific
Speaker 2: Dunes as well. Pacific Dunes a little bit smaller scale,
Speaker 2: Old McDonald a much bigger scale, And I could only
Speaker 2: use those two points of references in my in my
Speaker 2: discussion with you for everything that Pacific Dunes off the
Speaker 2: golfer in beauty and scale and and and playability McDonald.
Speaker 2: Old McDonald offers something different to play the first hole
Speaker 2: at Old McDonald upper right fairway, lower left fairway, center
Speaker 2: fairway with the Principal's nose on the double plateau. That's
Speaker 2: for me. Fun links golf at its finest. But when
Speaker 2: you play, have you played Pacific Dunes and Old Mac Andy,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: It's another place I got to get to. I worked
Speaker 1: too many years in tech and not enough years in golf.
Speaker 2: Well you'll get there, and I know you'll. You'll you'll
Speaker 2: love all of the golf course. You'll love trails for
Speaker 2: when it speaks of beauty. You'll love Bannon Dunes for
Speaker 2: what David Kidd did in the beginning that allowed us
Speaker 2: to all work there. And uh, you'll like Pacific Dunes
Speaker 2: and Old Mac for different reasons. And I love the
Speaker 2: big scale of Old McDonald. I love almost five point
Speaker 2: five acres of greens similar to Saint Andrews in Scotland.
Speaker 2: I love that scale. I think it offers strategy. I
Speaker 2: think it offers a different playing field depending on the
Speaker 2: way the wind blows. I think it offers every golfer
Speaker 2: a chance to make a recovery shot. But for everything
Speaker 2: Old McDonald offers in big scale, I think Cypress points.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sorry. Pacific Dunes offers in a little
Speaker 2: bit more intimate scale. Playing the seventh and eighth holes
Speaker 2: at Pacific Dunes, those are fun holes to play, a
Speaker 2: little more intimate, a little more guarded around the greens,
Speaker 2: a little more interest. They're all different. Is big scale
Speaker 2: in vogue right now? Yeah? It probably is. I saw
Speaker 2: Corn Crenshaw's layout at the Sand Valley and I saw
Speaker 2: David Kids layout at Mammoth Dudentes. Wow have you seen
Speaker 2: those yet?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Massive?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: I mean Mammoth Dunes is aptly named, because aptly named.
Speaker 2: Can should every golf course be Mammoth Doones? You know?
Speaker 2: I don't know, But should everybody get a chance to
Speaker 2: play Corn Crenshaw's Sand Valley and David Kids Mammothdoons? Absolutely
Speaker 2: because it offers something that maybe a lot of golfers
Speaker 2: don't ever get to experience, and that is the array
Speaker 2: of shots you can play without restriction. And that's one
Speaker 2: of the things I learned at Saint Andrews when I
Speaker 2: first went. There is a golf course without borders, and
Speaker 2: that has been my stable of design and the way
Speaker 2: I lay out grassing lines at New golf courses that
Speaker 2: I'm involved with and the way I lay out presentation,
Speaker 2: grassing lines on restorations. Try not to have a golf
Speaker 2: course with borders. It's so much more freedom, and I
Speaker 2: hope that people understand what I'm trying to say. Mammoth
Speaker 2: Dunes and current Cronshaw Sand Valley, they give you the
Speaker 2: freedom to play and that's so important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's uh. I'm a big proponent of
Speaker 1: with you know, I think it's the But what you
Speaker 1: touched on I think is important is that the great
Speaker 1: thing about golf is variety, and having variety among design
Speaker 1: theories is really important.
Speaker 2: I think it is. And I think that for one
Speaker 2: of the things that I think Mike Kaijer did so
Speaker 2: wonderful abandon dune'es was that he gave you four different
Speaker 2: golf course in the same setting. And that is variety.
Speaker 2: And I think Sand Valley is a little different than
Speaker 2: Mammoth Due up in Wisconsin, and a lot of the
Speaker 2: Golden Age designs, for example, my five favorite designs are
Speaker 2: have so much different variety. I go from the National
Speaker 2: Golf Links of America to Prairie Dunes. What a contrast.
Speaker 2: I go from Pinehurst number two one of my top
Speaker 2: fives to Cyprus point what a contrast, And so I
Speaker 2: think about those golf courses being contrasting and having variety.
Speaker 2: And that's what the two golf courses I was involved with,
Speaker 2: Abandoned Dunes give you specific dudes, and Old Mac they
Speaker 2: give you variety. That's all you want. You want something
Speaker 2: different and not the same old that does it.
Speaker 1: For part one of our podcasts with Jim Orbina, checking
Speaker 1: on the feed on Thursday for part two. Now you've
Speaker 1: been listening to the Egg podcast, we do the digging
Speaker 1: for you.