WEBVTT - Jim Urbina - Part 1

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<v Speaker 1>Happy New Year, and welcome back to another edition of

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<v Speaker 1>the Frida Egg Podcast. Thanks for all the support in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty seventeen. To kick things off in twenty eighteen, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>have a two part podcast with golf course architect Jim Urbina.

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<v Speaker 1>If you don't or haven't already, please subscribe to our

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<v Speaker 1>podcast at iTunes and rate and review us. Now here's

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<v Speaker 1>Jim Urbina.

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<v Speaker 2>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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<v Speaker 1>When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I find my ball in a brid egg

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<v Speaker 2>Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Egg,

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<v Speaker 2>Frida egg, bride.

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<v Speaker 1>Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

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<v Speaker 1>Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to another edition of the

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<v Speaker 1>Frida Egg Podcast. Today I'm joined by golf course architect

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<v Speaker 1>Jim Urbina.

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<v Speaker 2>Jim, welcome on, Good morning Andy. Thanks for having me

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<v Speaker 2>on wonderful day to talk about golf.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if there is a bad day to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about golf.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let's just say this is the best day to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about golf.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, Jim, you do a lot of You've done

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<v Speaker 1>just you know, You've had a great career so far,

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<v Speaker 1>and you've been doing quite a bit of restoration work

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<v Speaker 1>at a lot of high profile places, so I think

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<v Speaker 1>you know. My first question is how do you get

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<v Speaker 1>a club to buy in on a restoration?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that's always tough because when I get that

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<v Speaker 2>phone call, when somebody reaches out to me and asks

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<v Speaker 2>me about a club, a particular club, a greens committee chairman,

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<v Speaker 2>a club president, somebody who is associated with the club.

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<v Speaker 2>They call me and asked me, what do you know

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<v Speaker 2>about a particular golf course? Would you be interested in

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<v Speaker 2>talking to us about it? I'm always skeptical. And the

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<v Speaker 2>only reason I say skeptical is I'm always skeptical about

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<v Speaker 2>what the intent is. What is your phone call about?

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<v Speaker 2>What is your goal? And so when you ask that question,

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<v Speaker 2>how do I get a club to buy in?

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<v Speaker 1>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>The first question I always ask when we get into

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<v Speaker 2>a roundtable discussion, or we gather as a group and

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<v Speaker 2>a committee starts to interview me or ask me questions,

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<v Speaker 2>the first question I always ask is do you embrace history?

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<v Speaker 2>And the place goes very quiet. And so the reason

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<v Speaker 2>the place goes quiet is because I'm not sure that

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<v Speaker 2>they understand my question, or if they've even thought about

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<v Speaker 2>the history that their club may be a part of.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I figured that we ought to start with

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<v Speaker 2>the interview by me interviewing them. If that makes sense,

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<v Speaker 2>It makes a ton of sense.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you want to make sure that the committee

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<v Speaker 1>is on the same page as you are, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of thinking along the same lines. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>leads me into question. I'm always curious it seems to

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<v Speaker 1>be a polarizing topic with restoration. Do you believe in

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<v Speaker 1>returning it back to the original place or restoring intent

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<v Speaker 1>which might lead to moving bunkers into different places to

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<v Speaker 1>adopt for technology.

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<v Speaker 2>Depending on the architect or as Pete Die used to

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<v Speaker 2>always tell me, Jim or not, architects were builders, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've kind of embraced that ever since. I always think

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<v Speaker 2>about what the club represents, what the goals are of

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<v Speaker 2>the club, and really, if this club or a club

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<v Speaker 2>that has asked me to talk about their golf course,

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<v Speaker 2>their history, is it's something that it lends itself to

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<v Speaker 2>a restoration, because really, not all golf courses should be restored,

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<v Speaker 2>if that makes sense to you. And the reason I

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<v Speaker 2>say that is because some golf courses just don't have

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<v Speaker 2>the architectural beauty, the architectural strategy that would would interest me.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when I talk to clubs and I ask

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<v Speaker 2>them about the history, the reason I asked that question

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<v Speaker 2>is because if they want to modernize it, if they

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<v Speaker 2>want to modernize, modernize it by moving bunkers around, by

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<v Speaker 2>changing greens, by flattening them, flattening them out, I generally

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<v Speaker 2>would say that I'm not the person you should be

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<v Speaker 2>talking to, and I would excuse myself from the interview

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<v Speaker 2>process because of that. So I tend not to think

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<v Speaker 2>about a golf course i'm interviewing for as a modernization project.

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<v Speaker 2>But I tend to lean towards restoration. And I've enjoyed

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<v Speaker 2>that the most and I've been the most successful at it.

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<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm. It's it's with us. I mean, the golf

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<v Speaker 1>courses in the era we now are. I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>Golden Age golf courses are more popular than they've ever

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<v Speaker 1>been before. Why do you think that, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>I just interviewed for a Golden Age design last actually

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<v Speaker 2>a few days ago, and one of the questions one

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<v Speaker 2>of the committee people asked me was, well, Jim, what

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<v Speaker 2>can you do to this golf course to make it

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<v Speaker 2>enjoyable for the high handicapped player as well as the

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<v Speaker 2>scratch golfer. And my answer to him was emphatically, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think I could do both on this golf course.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is the golf course that I'm interviewing for,

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<v Speaker 2>because the golf course and its strategy and intent was

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<v Speaker 2>different bunkers at different yardages off the t's with very

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<v Speaker 2>ends degrees of a strategy involved. So if I was

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<v Speaker 2>interviewing for a golf course that had bunker left, bunker

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<v Speaker 2>right in the fairway at two hundred and sixty yards out,

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<v Speaker 2>and they wanted to move bunker left and bunker right

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<v Speaker 2>in the fairway to two eighty, that would be something

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<v Speaker 2>that has no interest at all for me. But if

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<v Speaker 2>you have a golf course that has short bunker right, medium,

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<v Speaker 2>distant bunker left, center bunker three hundred yards out, additional

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<v Speaker 2>left fairway bunker at let's say four to ninety, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about a part five in this sense, if

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<v Speaker 2>you can think with me that each one of those

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<v Speaker 2>bunkers offers something different for every level of player, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's the golf courses I seek out because before I

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<v Speaker 2>interview for a job before before i'm before i'm I

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<v Speaker 2>want to be considered. I want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>the golf course has something for everybody. And if I

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<v Speaker 2>could bring that out in the restoration, then I will

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<v Speaker 2>have succeeded and I will have answered that gentleman's question

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<v Speaker 2>that answered me, that asked me what can you do

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<v Speaker 2>for all levels of players? And that's what I try

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<v Speaker 2>to seek out. But very simplistic bunkering bunker left, bunker right,

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<v Speaker 2>as I said, does not interest me. And that's why

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<v Speaker 2>McDonald and rayner a lot of ross courses, the Babble

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<v Speaker 2>Ink Club that I just restored back in twenty fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>and sixteen with Scott Povoco. Those are the golf courses

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<v Speaker 2>that interest me because they have bunkers for all levels

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<v Speaker 2>of players. But generally they get filled in because someone

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<v Speaker 2>deems them uninteresting because they're only two hundred and ten

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<v Speaker 2>yards off the team money, isn't.

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<v Speaker 1>It it is? I was. You know, those ones that

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<v Speaker 1>are two hundred and ten yards off the tee provide

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<v Speaker 1>you know, thrill and interest for the senior or the

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<v Speaker 1>lady golfer. Now where they has to be you know

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<v Speaker 1>there for you know, better players but that was something

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<v Speaker 1>I was really impressed with when I walked around Babblink

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<v Speaker 1>this summer. Was you know the par five that runs

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<v Speaker 1>along the what is it the south property line that

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<v Speaker 1>has you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Bunker left number five, a.

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<v Speaker 1>Center line bunker. And I think you moved to green there?

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<v Speaker 1>Am I right?

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<v Speaker 2>The green had actually moved was moved by another architect

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<v Speaker 2>in the eighties, I believe, and I simply recaptured the

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<v Speaker 2>essence of Allison uh with that green site location, making

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<v Speaker 2>it feel more consistent with the other sixteen greens that

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<v Speaker 2>had not been touched since nineteen twenty two by Allison.

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<v Speaker 2>So yes, you are correct. In that hole. It had

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<v Speaker 2>several bunkers, each one at a different angle, each one

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<v Speaker 2>at a different yardage off the tee. And you want

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about a hole that embraces all levels of players,

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<v Speaker 2>that's it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, A very very cool hole in terms of with

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<v Speaker 1>you know, restoring golf courses. And let's just say say,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm you know, a member, I'm I'm the head of

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<v Speaker 1>a greens committee at a you know, Golden Age golf course,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know we want to start to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>get interest in restoration and we were going to just

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<v Speaker 1>take the first step, like what's usually what you see

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<v Speaker 1>across courses, the smallest and easiest thing that most clubs

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<v Speaker 1>could do to start to show what a restoration, how

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<v Speaker 1>it could help the club and get more people to

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<v Speaker 1>buy in.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I wish more people ask me that in

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<v Speaker 2>the interview process. One of the first things that I

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<v Speaker 2>always look at when I walk onto a golf course.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's the very first thing I look at

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<v Speaker 2>is the mowing presentation. And I've been doing that since

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<v Speaker 2>my early days at the Valley Club of Montecito in California,

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<v Speaker 2>which I started working on in nineteen. You know, ninety six,

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<v Speaker 2>ninety five, ninety six seems like forever ago. And when

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<v Speaker 2>I look at the mowing presentation, I can tell that

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<v Speaker 2>it has evolved, and we can go there if you

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<v Speaker 2>want during the interview about the evolution of golf courses.

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<v Speaker 2>But I noticed that the Valley Club of Monosita the

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<v Speaker 2>way the golf course was being presented, and if we

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<v Speaker 2>could recapture what it used to look like. And I

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<v Speaker 2>used the term look like because I look at old

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<v Speaker 2>aerials and ground photos. For some reason, Alistair mackenzie loved

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<v Speaker 2>to document himself on the golf course, and I'm thankful

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<v Speaker 2>for that because I have great ground photos of the

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<v Speaker 2>Valley Club of Montecito, I have great ground photos of

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<v Speaker 2>Pasa Tempo with Mackenzie and Marion Hollins and Bobby Jones

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<v Speaker 2>playing the golf course, so I was able to recapture

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<v Speaker 2>the mowing presentation. And I always tell the clubs the

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<v Speaker 2>first thing you could do, the cheapest thing you could do,

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<v Speaker 2>is just represent how you mow the golf course, and

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of superintendents would be more than happy to

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<v Speaker 2>try that and show the club what could be done

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<v Speaker 2>to recapture the strategy and the intent of these Golden

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<v Speaker 2>Age designs. Just mowing the grass. Is It's that simple?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree. I mean that's one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>you notice always when you look at an old aerial

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<v Speaker 1>of almost every Golden age golf course that hasn't been restored,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in the recent time, is that you see

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<v Speaker 1>that the mowing lines on the greens and the fairways

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<v Speaker 1>are just considerably smaller. So, you know, say, in the

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<v Speaker 1>case of like a Chicago area club where you have

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<v Speaker 1>bluegrass rough bent grass fairways, what do you suggest how

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<v Speaker 1>do you suggest you combat that if you wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>extend out the fairways.

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<v Speaker 2>Every superintendent does it differently, and I generally defer to

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<v Speaker 2>them with how they want to approach the recapturing of

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<v Speaker 2>that different types of grasses Pola Rye bent fairways versus

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<v Speaker 2>a bluegrass rough as you described. I've had the opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>to work at two clubs in Chicago, the glen View

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<v Speaker 2>Club with Brian Moore, excellent superintendent and as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the Bobbyling Club and Scott pavelkel Hey.

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<v Speaker 1>I actually caddied at glen View for like three years too, so.

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<v Speaker 2>You would be one of many caddies. They have an

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<v Speaker 2>excellent caddy program and one of the greatest things about

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<v Speaker 2>the glen View Club, not to get off track I apologize,

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<v Speaker 2>is that they don't they there is peer pressure to

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<v Speaker 2>walk by the membership, and there is peer pressure by

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<v Speaker 2>the membership to take a caddy, and generally you don't

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<v Speaker 2>take a caddy, somebody's gonna be staring you down wondering

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<v Speaker 2>why you don't have a caddy on your bag, And

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<v Speaker 2>for me, that's pretty impressive. But that speaks highly of

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<v Speaker 2>the chick Evans room that they have at the Glenview

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<v Speaker 2>Club and how they support the Caddy program, which I

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<v Speaker 2>think is fabulous in the Chicago area. But to get

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<v Speaker 2>back to grasses, every superintendent does it different. Some just

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<v Speaker 2>mow it down and let it mature and evolve into

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<v Speaker 2>a tight grass a rye a poa. Some sowed them out,

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<v Speaker 2>some sought out the lines that I have repainted. In

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<v Speaker 2>the case of of course, I'm that I'm restoring. In

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<v Speaker 2>Long Island, New York, rockfille LYNX, the superintendent Luke Knutson,

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<v Speaker 2>he uses the plugs from the fairways and spreads them

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<v Speaker 2>out into the newly area, the newly prepared area for fairway,

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<v Speaker 2>and within six months he's got the same looking fairway

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<v Speaker 2>as he had prior to the to the restoration. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's amazing how each superintendent attacks the situation differently, but

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<v Speaker 2>really it's all grass, and each one would tell you

0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.320
<v Speaker 2>something different. He uses plugs to restore the fairways, and

0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.960
<v Speaker 2>when you go back the next year, you'd never know

0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.600
<v Speaker 2>where we expanded the fairways and where we took out

0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.000
<v Speaker 2>the bluegrass rough So everyone does it different.

0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.640
<v Speaker 1>That's it. I would love to see more people do that.

0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.800
<v Speaker 1>And obviously sometimes you have you have trees and poor

0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.760
<v Speaker 1>planting in the way but you know you can. It

0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.680
<v Speaker 1>makes such a difference because it adds so much strategy

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:06.040
<v Speaker 1>back to the golf course.

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Do you and you know Andy it it can't be

0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 2>just the mowing presentation. We start with that, but really

0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:18.640
<v Speaker 2>it's it's uh, it's making sure the trees are the

0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 2>trees that are planted too close to the fairways. As

0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.160
<v Speaker 2>part of my what I talk about in the evolution

0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 2>of the golf course, trees that are planted too close,

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.760
<v Speaker 2>bushes that are planted too close, rose gardens that are

0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.640
<v Speaker 2>planted too close. All of those things are taking into

0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.880
<v Speaker 2>consideration before we we we mark out and flag the

0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 2>new mowing lines and so that the the the new

0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:43.400
<v Speaker 2>turf areas and the new fairways have every opportunity to

0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.600
<v Speaker 2>grow healthy grass, much like the center of the fairway

0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 2>has done for years and years and years.

0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.920
<v Speaker 1>So we've talked about a handful of Golden Age architects

0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.760
<v Speaker 1>already that you've you've worked on. I'm curious and it's

0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 1>a question I ask almost every hour architect that comes

0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.240
<v Speaker 1>on here, who do you feel is the most underappreciated

0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.440
<v Speaker 1>architect from the Golden Age.

0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:15.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm selfish in this statement, but it's someone that I

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.520
<v Speaker 2>just think does not get enough credit, and that's Perry

0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Maxwell and his son Press. I think that Perry Maxwell

0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:30.879
<v Speaker 2>was more than capable to be his own designer of

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:35.080
<v Speaker 2>record on many golf courses in the Midwest, which he

0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:40.199
<v Speaker 2>does have his name attached to him, but it's always

0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:44.679
<v Speaker 2>always seems to be portrayed the Midwest, or as the

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:49.440
<v Speaker 2>book was written about him, The Midwest Associate. Christopher Klouser

0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.960
<v Speaker 2>wrote Life and Work of Perry Maxwell, The Midwest Associate.

0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.760
<v Speaker 2>But to me, he was more than that. He was

0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.679
<v Speaker 2>helping Mackenzie create some of the coolest things in golf,

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Crystal Down, Augusta National, he was at Pine Valley. I mean,

0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.800
<v Speaker 2>he was in a lot of places, helping a lot

0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:13.240
<v Speaker 2>of architects look good. And I just wish, I just

0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.200
<v Speaker 2>wish that he would get his due or more people

0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.400
<v Speaker 2>would talk about him, because I'm fascinated by his greens,

0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.720
<v Speaker 2>and I'm fascinated what he did with the nine holes

0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.159
<v Speaker 2>at Prairie Dunes and eventually what Press Maxwell did with

0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the additional nine holes. It's one of my top five

0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.399
<v Speaker 2>golf courses. I think everybody should see it, Prairie Dunes,

0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.399
<v Speaker 2>and I think that everybody should get a chance to

0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.520
<v Speaker 2>see the famous greens of Maxwell. Perry Maxwell and his

0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.800
<v Speaker 2>son Press, who had had a chance to interview before

0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.679
<v Speaker 2>he'd passed away in Colorado. Press Maxwell, I learned a

0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.960
<v Speaker 2>lot about his father, Perry, and I just wish he

0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:52.760
<v Speaker 2>got more credit.

0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 1>I can't remember who I had on the podcast, but

0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.320
<v Speaker 1>they also mentioned that Perry Maxwell, you know, as the

0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.399
<v Speaker 1>most underappreciated because his career was most hindered by the

0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.720
<v Speaker 1>Great Depression. You know, when he really reached his height

0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:13.840
<v Speaker 1>was you know, when the least golf course construction was happening, right.

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.919
<v Speaker 2>And if just and just think if he would have

0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 2>been a few years earlier, the rowing twenties, what he

0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.879
<v Speaker 2>could have done. And not that he doesn't have something

0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.280
<v Speaker 2>to show for his name. He does. He has golf

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.919
<v Speaker 2>courses out there that have his name on it. But

0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.119
<v Speaker 2>people tend to want to flatten out his greens and

0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:41.360
<v Speaker 2>they want to alter his look of the golf courses.

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.919
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, I'm trying my best to stand up

0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:48.880
<v Speaker 2>for every Maxwell I can, as well as other architects.

0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Dave Axlan, who works for Core in Crenshaw, wonderful man.

0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 2>He has done a lot of work at Perry doing.

0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.240
<v Speaker 2>It's a wonderful job, and I always consider him a

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:03.480
<v Speaker 2>friend and I enjoy his work. He has He has

0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.399
<v Speaker 2>done his best to protect the look of prairie dunes,

0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.040
<v Speaker 2>to make sure nobody messes with it because people always

0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.240
<v Speaker 2>want to kind of flatten out the greens, and that

0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:17.080
<v Speaker 2>really was the character of Perry Maxwell mostly mostly, and

0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.639
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. But anytime I'm struggling for a style of

0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.800
<v Speaker 2>green that i'd like to build, I always go back

0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.560
<v Speaker 2>to my Maxwell roots and I create one or two

0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.239
<v Speaker 2>inside roll greens. I did that at Sabotic and uh

0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.439
<v Speaker 2>and Uh. It's something that I enjoy. I wish more

0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:37.280
<v Speaker 2>people appreciated.

0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:42.919
<v Speaker 1>It's usually the external contours. The big bold external contours

0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.439
<v Speaker 1>get all the kind of praise, and you know, they

0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.199
<v Speaker 1>catch the eye. But I always am impressed with you know,

0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:52.679
<v Speaker 1>the great architects. Like one that sticks out is like

0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:57.520
<v Speaker 1>how SETH. Rayner used internal contours and he had these big,

0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.959
<v Speaker 1>bold external ones, but these subtle spine and humps and

0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.160
<v Speaker 1>bumps in the in the green were the ones that

0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:05.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, really Wrecktavic.

0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I agree. I think Rayner and well, you're talking about

0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.719
<v Speaker 2>one of my other favorite guys. Seth Rayner. But I

0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:20.560
<v Speaker 2>think Maxwell's little inside roles we were underappreciated. I think

0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.440
<v Speaker 2>the bold inside roles of Rayner which were much more

0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:30.040
<v Speaker 2>apparent McDonald and Rayner, but Maxwell, just a little thing

0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:31.760
<v Speaker 2>sometimes make a big difference.

0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:36.840
<v Speaker 1>So I'm assuming, say you're you could transport back to

0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:41.440
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenty eight, We'll say, and you could have either

0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Robert Hunter working with you on the Mackenzie's other famed associate,

0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.280
<v Speaker 1>or Perry Maxwell. Who would you choose? Maxwell?

0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Wow, great question. Nobody's ever asked me that. They always

0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:05.840
<v Speaker 2>talk about the Lee guys, and for me, I think

0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:11.359
<v Speaker 2>the the guys in the background are the forgotten ones.

0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:16.160
<v Speaker 2>And luckily Robert Hunter was able to publish a book,

0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.119
<v Speaker 2>The Links by Robert Hunter, which gave him credit and fame.

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:24.600
<v Speaker 2>And Perry Maxwell, certainly with Old Town Golf Club that

0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:29.639
<v Speaker 2>Core and Crenshaw expertly restored, and Prairie Dunes and some

0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.760
<v Speaker 2>of the other places that Perry Maxwell worked on, certainly

0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.560
<v Speaker 2>had credit. But it's the guys that you never hear about,

0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and one of the one of the group of people

0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:44.560
<v Speaker 2>that you never hear about. And again I'm digressing, going

0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 2>away from your question, but Perry Maxwell had a gentleman

0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>by the name of I can't remember his name, Woods

0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Ray Woods. Woods was a guy that helped Maxwell create

0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.960
<v Speaker 2>some of the best golf courses ever. And I remember

0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:08.200
<v Speaker 2>interviewing Press Maxwell at the Pinehurst Club in Denver, Colorado,

0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 2>that's where he was a member. Press Maxwell, I asked

0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.320
<v Speaker 2>him how they built their greens and how they would

0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:16.240
<v Speaker 2>go about the greens, and he talked about the Woods

0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.359
<v Speaker 2>Brothers and how they would go out there and they

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.199
<v Speaker 2>would stand in the fairway and they would, you know,

0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:25.040
<v Speaker 2>eyeball how they wanted the green to look, and they

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.960
<v Speaker 2>would build it and talk about it. And I asked

0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Press Maxwell, I said, did the Wood brothers ever survey

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.360
<v Speaker 2>their greens? And he said, no, they never did. All

0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:36.720
<v Speaker 2>they did was just eyeballing, and if it looked like

0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.119
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't too steep, and with the green speeds of

0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.800
<v Speaker 2>that time, if they didn't look too steep, that they

0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:45.480
<v Speaker 2>were good. And so Perry Maxwell had the Wood Brothers,

0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie had Robert Hunter. But who would I use. I'd

0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:54.760
<v Speaker 2>probably use them both because the more the merrier, and

0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:59.160
<v Speaker 2>if your common goal with Robert Hunter and Perry Maxwell

0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.480
<v Speaker 2>as our as my associate. If the common goal was

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:08.719
<v Speaker 2>the good of the golf course and building eighteen wonderful holes,

0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.960
<v Speaker 2>not great holes, wonderful holes, that I'd use them both.

0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:15.280
<v Speaker 2>And I'm sure that each one of them would lend

0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:17.760
<v Speaker 2>their expertise at the right time, at the right place.

0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:22.120
<v Speaker 2>Perry Maxwell maybe on the greens, Robert Hunter on the bunkers,

0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:26.679
<v Speaker 2>which I believe Robert Hunter had all, not all, but

0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:30.439
<v Speaker 2>most ninety eight percent of the credit of the beauty

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.680
<v Speaker 2>of Mackenzie's bunkers because every golf course of Robert Hunter

0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.800
<v Speaker 2>worked on. Those bunkers were pretty dog gone good and

0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:40.960
<v Speaker 2>they're not just jigsaws, but the way they layered them,

0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Robert Hunter had a lot to do with that. So

0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:45.439
<v Speaker 2>I'd use them both. Is that fair or is that

0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:46.040
<v Speaker 2>a cop out?

0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:48.960
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of a cop out, But you know, you

0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:51.119
<v Speaker 1>at least gave what you'd use each of them for.

0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:55.240
<v Speaker 1>So I think nobody, nobody would agree or nobody would

0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:58.640
<v Speaker 1>disagree with the Hunter's bunkering and Maxwell's greens. I mean,

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:00.959
<v Speaker 1>you get the both worlds.

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 2>That's an all star cast right there. Wouldn't even me

0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:06.720
<v Speaker 2>Jim or Beaner. You put those two guys together and

0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:07.920
<v Speaker 2>be super duper well.

0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:10.120
<v Speaker 1>They you know, they got to have a CEO, which

0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:12.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, McKenzie was the CEO.

0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:18.320
<v Speaker 2>So McDonald was the CEO. They were both based on

0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:21.320
<v Speaker 2>everything I read, they were pretty egotistical. So you I

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:22.920
<v Speaker 2>guess you need that, don't you.

0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, somebody's got to be the boss.

0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:27.240
<v Speaker 2>Uh, somebody's got to be the boss.

0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:31.199
<v Speaker 1>So you know, and you've worked with worked on, you know,

0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:36.480
<v Speaker 1>Pasa Tiempo, the Valley Club with with mackenzie. You know,

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:41.080
<v Speaker 1>everybody loves his bunkering, you know, the deceptions always talked

0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:46.040
<v Speaker 1>about and the playability. What aspect of mackenzie do you

0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:48.840
<v Speaker 1>think kind of gets swept under the rug is is?

0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:51.879
<v Speaker 1>But was really great about his designs.

0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:58.920
<v Speaker 2>The beauty, which, as you know, he's been quoted many

0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:04.159
<v Speaker 2>times in many articles. Any architect worth his salt, and

0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:09.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm paraphrasing, any architect worth his salt realizes that the

0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:11.919
<v Speaker 2>beauty of the golf course is as important as the strategy.

0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:16.120
<v Speaker 2>And what better place to stand and say that statement

0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:23.359
<v Speaker 2>than the sixteenth t at Cyprus Point, or the first

0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:29.000
<v Speaker 2>tee at Pasa Tempo overlooking the peninsula, or the Valley

0:26:29.040 --> 0:26:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Club of Monecito standing on the fifteenth green walking over

0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:37.479
<v Speaker 2>to the sixteenth t and seeing the Pacific Ocean. Easy

0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:40.000
<v Speaker 2>to say that, but really, what I think that a

0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:43.320
<v Speaker 2>lot of people think of a Mackenzie and I now

0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:46.520
<v Speaker 2>know Robert Hunter bunker is they think if they just

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:50.400
<v Speaker 2>built a jigsaw bunker, somehow that's a Mackenzie bunker, and

0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.600
<v Speaker 2>that is so far from the truth. One of the

0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:56.280
<v Speaker 2>things I learned working at the Valley Club of Montecito

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.399
<v Speaker 2>is the way that Robert Hunter and Mackenzie layer at

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:03.679
<v Speaker 2>the bunkers and what they did. And I'd love to

0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:05.879
<v Speaker 2>take you back there someday with me to the Valley

0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Club of Montecito, and that'd be a lot of fun.

0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I'd show you the layering. And I realized that when

0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I was restoring the bunkers, I thought, man, these bunkers

0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:19.440
<v Speaker 2>are like fitting right next to each other, even though

0:27:19.480 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 2>they're ninety and one hundred yards apart. And I started

0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:28.879
<v Speaker 2>to when I was reshaping them. And so I don't

0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:33.560
<v Speaker 2>forget I had very talented shapers helping me all along

0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.879
<v Speaker 2>the way. But let's go there. Sometime later in the interview,

0:27:37.600 --> 0:27:42.040
<v Speaker 2>when I started to realize that these features, these bunkers,

0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:45.480
<v Speaker 2>they weren't just jigsaws, but they were fingers that were

0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:48.560
<v Speaker 2>layered on top of each other so that at the

0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:51.640
<v Speaker 2>right angle and at the right location in the fairway,

0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:53.680
<v Speaker 2>one bunker would look like he was on top of

0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:57.320
<v Speaker 2>the other. And the Valley Club kept doing that over

0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:02.240
<v Speaker 2>and over and over on thirteenth hole, on the sixth hole,

0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:05.119
<v Speaker 2>on the fifth hole, on the seventeenth hole, and I

0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:09.320
<v Speaker 2>started to realize, this isn't just happenstance. They weren't just

0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:12.879
<v Speaker 2>winging it out here. There was somebody standing there making

0:28:12.920 --> 0:28:15.720
<v Speaker 2>sure that was the right elevation. And that's what I

0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:20.359
<v Speaker 2>learned about a Mackenzie Hunter bunker, that they weren't just jigsaws,

0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:25.280
<v Speaker 2>and they weren't just beautiful. They were intricate. They were integral,

0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:28.879
<v Speaker 2>they were attached to each other, and in certain parts

0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:31.399
<v Speaker 2>of the round of golf, when you stood in certain

0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:34.320
<v Speaker 2>parts of the fairway, they were actually attached to each other.

0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:37.320
<v Speaker 2>And the best one I could show you is on

0:28:37.359 --> 0:28:39.520
<v Speaker 2>the fifth hole at the Valley Club of Monte Sego,

0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:42.440
<v Speaker 2>because it's got about a six percent grade going uphill,

0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:45.200
<v Speaker 2>and so the bunkers at eye level just seemed to

0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:50.160
<v Speaker 2>be layered perfectly, and a right center fairway bunker if

0:28:50.200 --> 0:28:53.400
<v Speaker 2>you're standing in the right location, looked like it matches

0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:56.080
<v Speaker 2>up to the right greenside bunker. And if you're on

0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:58.840
<v Speaker 2>the other side of the fairway, that center bunker looks

0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 2>like it matches up to the left greenside bunker. And

0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:05.880
<v Speaker 2>I thought, this is beyond cool. This is so much different.

0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:09.840
<v Speaker 2>And every time I would laugh when somebody would talk

0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:12.800
<v Speaker 2>about a Mackenzie bunker and just show a jigsaw, I said,

0:29:12.800 --> 0:29:14.080
<v Speaker 2>if they only knew.

0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's I feel like that's you know, with almost everything,

0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 1>there's so so many people try. You know, Mackenzie's obviously

0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:26.520
<v Speaker 1>got beautiful bunkers, and what happens is people try and

0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:30.320
<v Speaker 1>mimic them. But you know, there's something about the original

0:29:30.400 --> 0:29:34.520
<v Speaker 1>and there's so much that goes into something in somebody's

0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:39.239
<v Speaker 1>head that's you know that nobody could really replicate that

0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:43.520
<v Speaker 1>except for you know, people that really understand it at

0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:47.480
<v Speaker 1>a at a very deep level and agree, hey, this

0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:50.280
<v Speaker 1>is full of Mackenzie bunkers, but you're missing the point.

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:54.240
<v Speaker 1>And a I think Bill Corr, when he was on

0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:57.760
<v Speaker 1>on the podcast, was talking about how you know Pete

0:29:57.840 --> 0:30:01.719
<v Speaker 1>Die changed golf course architecture twice and what happened was

0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:04.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, after Harbortown, you saw a lot of courses

0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:09.800
<v Speaker 1>look like Harbortown. But then you know the the those

0:30:09.880 --> 0:30:13.080
<v Speaker 1>courses that looked like it weren't Harbortown because they were

0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:17.600
<v Speaker 1>missing that, you know, the strategy and the subtleness of

0:30:17.680 --> 0:30:19.000
<v Speaker 1>the die designs.

0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, And I totally agree with Bill cor One

0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:25.840
<v Speaker 2>of my someday Andy, when I grew up, I want

0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:28.840
<v Speaker 2>to be like Bill Corr. I think a lot of people,

0:30:30.280 --> 0:30:33.440
<v Speaker 2>but the Valet Club of Monocito, I'll never forget. Standing

0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:37.360
<v Speaker 2>on the fifteenth Fairway and I was restoring the upper

0:30:37.560 --> 0:30:41.080
<v Speaker 2>level bunker behind the fifteenth Green Aposta Temple, I wish

0:30:41.120 --> 0:30:43.200
<v Speaker 2>I had a photo you could put up and show

0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:48.960
<v Speaker 2>because the Greens chairman at the time, mister Anderson, said, Jim,

0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:50.960
<v Speaker 2>why are you restoring that one? That's still a lot

0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:54.719
<v Speaker 2>of play And I said, well, because that bucker is

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:58.000
<v Speaker 2>not really for the fifteenth hole. He laughed at me,

0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:00.720
<v Speaker 2>and I said, come on, let's go over to the

0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 2>eighteen tea box. And I took him over to the

0:31:03.880 --> 0:31:07.360
<v Speaker 2>eighteen tea box and I showed him how the layering

0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:09.800
<v Speaker 2>of bunkers going up the left side of eighteen at

0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:14.200
<v Speaker 2>the Valley Club, layered in perfectly with the right green

0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:17.200
<v Speaker 2>side bunkers and the left green side bunkers on fifteen

0:31:17.680 --> 0:31:21.600
<v Speaker 2>and made the upper bunker above fifteen be a part

0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 2>of eighteen. And he says, I would have never noticed that,

0:31:26.960 --> 0:31:30.680
<v Speaker 2>and I said, that's why it's here. And that's the

0:31:30.720 --> 0:31:34.160
<v Speaker 2>beauty of Mackenzie. And you see it at Cyprus Point

0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:38.160
<v Speaker 2>whole number eleven. You see it at the Claremont Club

0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:42.800
<v Speaker 2>in Berkeley, Oakland, California that I'm working on right now.

0:31:43.160 --> 0:31:45.800
<v Speaker 2>You see it at the Valley Club, Montcito, you see

0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:49.360
<v Speaker 2>it at Pasa Tempo. It's that layering on top of

0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 2>beauty that make Mackenzie and Hunter bunkers so wonderful to restore.

0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:58.000
<v Speaker 2>And you know, that was a life lessons and I'm

0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:00.920
<v Speaker 2>so lucky to have been able to re store Posit

0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:04.560
<v Speaker 2>Temple because it taught me a lot about scale, It

0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:07.520
<v Speaker 2>taught me a lot about deception, it taught me a

0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:10.880
<v Speaker 2>lot about layering, It taught me a lot about strategy.

0:32:11.440 --> 0:32:16.120
<v Speaker 2>And I thought, this is my open book education on golf,

0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:20.840
<v Speaker 2>just by working and restoring places like the Valley Club

0:32:21.120 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 2>and Posa Temple.

0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:26.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's I usually say to people that if they

0:32:26.800 --> 0:32:29.200
<v Speaker 1>want to get into architecture, you got to go play

0:32:29.280 --> 0:32:31.960
<v Speaker 1>like a really great course and then you'll feel enlightened.

0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:37.640
<v Speaker 2>And not only play it andy, as you know, you

0:32:37.800 --> 0:32:41.520
<v Speaker 2>have to walk it from side to side, and you

0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:44.680
<v Speaker 2>have to you have to experience it from all levels.

0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:49.880
<v Speaker 2>That's why I crack up. I just can't believe somebody

0:32:49.920 --> 0:32:53.640
<v Speaker 2>can rate a golf course tell you all about it

0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:55.640
<v Speaker 2>in one visit.

0:32:56.000 --> 0:32:56.280
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

0:32:57.200 --> 0:33:01.240
<v Speaker 2>These golf courses are way more complete. The Golden Age

0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:04.440
<v Speaker 2>golf courses are way more complicated than that. And for

0:33:04.520 --> 0:33:10.560
<v Speaker 2>somebody to stand on the sixteenth green at San Francisco

0:33:10.600 --> 0:33:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Golf Club golf course, I had a chance to restore

0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.480
<v Speaker 2>all the greens and some of the bunker, to stand

0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:19.800
<v Speaker 2>on that green and say, oh, this green is you know,

0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 2>front to back or back to front, and you know,

0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:26.800
<v Speaker 2>a pretty good hole. They don't even understand that the

0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:31.000
<v Speaker 2>nuances of that green. And until you've worked on it,

0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:34.360
<v Speaker 2>and until you've played it a hundred times, until you've

0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:38.200
<v Speaker 2>put it in all different directions, do you understand the increastacies,

0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:43.239
<v Speaker 2>intricacies And for some way, for someone to look at

0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:47.160
<v Speaker 2>a golf course and one day in a four or

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 2>five hour time period. Say, eh, that's an average golf course.

0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:55.600
<v Speaker 2>I just I cringe when I think that golf course

0:33:55.640 --> 0:34:00.600
<v Speaker 2>deserves more attention than that. If that is a statement

0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:04.040
<v Speaker 2>to say it deserves way more attention than that, that's.

0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:07.480
<v Speaker 1>I think walking a golf course you learn way more

0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:10.440
<v Speaker 1>about it than I mean almost golf digest raiders or

0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:13.400
<v Speaker 1>any raiders should have to walk courses instead of playing,

0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:17.680
<v Speaker 1>because walking them, they'll learn way more. You know, walk

0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:19.279
<v Speaker 1>it with a wedge and a putter.

0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:22.879
<v Speaker 2>You know, or a seven I are in my favorite club, Yeah,

0:34:22.960 --> 0:34:29.319
<v Speaker 2>because that really tells you about what is available. And

0:34:29.400 --> 0:34:32.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, every game, everybody's game is different. You know,

0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:34.279
<v Speaker 2>some people tend to play the right side of the

0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:37.200
<v Speaker 2>fairway versus the left, some people tend to stay on

0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:39.920
<v Speaker 2>the ground, and some people hitting up the air. And

0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:43.480
<v Speaker 2>I just wonder, I just wonder if, as you said,

0:34:43.520 --> 0:34:45.320
<v Speaker 2>if they walk the golf course, and a lot of

0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.719
<v Speaker 2>people don't have that time nowadays, but if they walk

0:34:48.760 --> 0:34:51.120
<v Speaker 2>the golf course, got it like of a kind of

0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:54.280
<v Speaker 2>like a preview before they actually played it, how much

0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:58.719
<v Speaker 2>better it would be? And I think people would appreciate

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:02.400
<v Speaker 2>designs more and not just think that it's just another

0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:04.719
<v Speaker 2>eighteen holes with fifty bunkers.

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:07.239
<v Speaker 1>I think if they had to walk the course, or

0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:09.799
<v Speaker 1>say they had to walk the course twice instead of

0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:12.240
<v Speaker 1>playing it, which would probably take about the same time,

0:35:12.680 --> 0:35:14.160
<v Speaker 1>they'd have a lot less raiders.

0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, they may have a lot less raiders and a

0:35:18.880 --> 0:35:22.640
<v Speaker 2>lot less people visiting. You know, how many people want

0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:25.960
<v Speaker 2>to go around and see ten golf courses in a day.

0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:29.399
<v Speaker 2>I know people who I'm going to play thirty six

0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:32.640
<v Speaker 2>holes today or fifty four holes today, And I think

0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:35.920
<v Speaker 2>to myself, why not just give that golf course that

0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:38.799
<v Speaker 2>first one you have, give it fifty four holes of

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:44.879
<v Speaker 2>your time and it might be really, really good.

0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:50.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I agree. It's like I've found myself, you know,

0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 1>more and more thinking like, you know, you need to

0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:57.200
<v Speaker 1>really see a place a few times before you really

0:35:57.400 --> 0:36:00.120
<v Speaker 1>pass judgment on it, because it's not fair to you,

0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:03.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, like that's fair, Yeah, especially if you're trying

0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:05.680
<v Speaker 1>to compare it to somewhere where you've you know, played

0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:07.600
<v Speaker 1>six seven.

0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:12.600
<v Speaker 2>Times, Yes, and it's play you played Cyprus Point six

0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:15.839
<v Speaker 2>or seven times because it's so beautiful, and you play

0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:18.880
<v Speaker 2>the golf course Inland just from there from Cyprus Point

0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:23.120
<v Speaker 2>once and try to compare the two. You can't do it. No, No,

0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:28.280
<v Speaker 2>there's no way, because you'll always lean into the beauty

0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:31.719
<v Speaker 2>and the six or seven times of memorable moments, and

0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:34.120
<v Speaker 2>you give another golf course four hours of your time

0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:36.920
<v Speaker 2>on the way. I don't know, man, it's hard for

0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:37.600
<v Speaker 2>me to buy that.

0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:41.520
<v Speaker 1>It leads me into a question. You know, with with

0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:47.319
<v Speaker 1>all your extensive California Mackenzie experience, and how would you

0:36:47.360 --> 0:36:51.760
<v Speaker 1>split ten rounds between all the Mackenzie California courses?

0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Ten rounds? That's all I got.

0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a tough one.

0:36:59.640 --> 0:37:00.719
<v Speaker 2>Do you it's not fair?

0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you want twenty? Uh?

0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:08.360
<v Speaker 2>No, I'll do ten. I would say that I would

0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:20.080
<v Speaker 2>play Cypress Point twice. All right, yep, that's a good start.

0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Everybody would I'll tell you what a lot of people

0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:25.319
<v Speaker 2>would laugh and say I wouldn't play it twice. I'd

0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:27.239
<v Speaker 2>play it ten times and forget the rest of them.

0:37:28.320 --> 0:37:30.640
<v Speaker 2>But that's okay, you asked me, so I'm gonna tell you.

0:37:31.400 --> 0:37:38.520
<v Speaker 2>I would play the Valley Club twice. I would play

0:37:39.440 --> 0:37:50.440
<v Speaker 2>passa Tempo twice. I would play the Claremont Club. Once

0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:53.520
<v Speaker 2>you got to see the Clermont Club, have you ever

0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:54.600
<v Speaker 2>seen it. Yeah.

0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:57.920
<v Speaker 1>I had made my first golf trip to San Francisco

0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:01.920
<v Speaker 1>this fall, so I got to get back out to

0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:05.399
<v Speaker 1>San Francisco. I only had three days, so I didn't

0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:05.920
<v Speaker 1>get out.

0:38:05.800 --> 0:38:12.120
<v Speaker 2>There go see the Claremont Club. It's a redo of

0:38:12.160 --> 0:38:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a golf course by Alis from McKenzie and Robert Hunter.

0:38:15.480 --> 0:38:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Some people Sean Tolly mackenzie historian who works at the

0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:23.759
<v Speaker 2>Metal Club, would say that maybe more Robert Hunter at

0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:26.759
<v Speaker 2>the Claremont Club than mackenzie. But they do have a

0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:29.920
<v Speaker 2>photo McKenzie drinking a pint with Donald Ross on the

0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:32.520
<v Speaker 2>ninth hole at Claremont, so he had to be there

0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:37.000
<v Speaker 2>at least a little while. It is cool. It's a

0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:39.319
<v Speaker 2>great photo. I have it up on my wall. It

0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:43.360
<v Speaker 2>looks down on my computer. It's Ross and McKenzie with

0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:46.360
<v Speaker 2>a pint with all the workers and people at the

0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Claremont Club. It's great. But you got to see Claremont

0:38:49.160 --> 0:38:51.920
<v Speaker 2>for the crossing fairways, probably the only club in America

0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>that still has crossing fairways. I would play the Metal

0:38:56.040 --> 0:39:01.400
<v Speaker 2>Club once. Wonderful golf course, great, a great walk in

0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:04.759
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful setting. You know you gotta go to the

0:39:04.800 --> 0:39:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Caw Club. Even though some people say Uh, well, it

0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:14.320
<v Speaker 2>wasn't Arthur av McCann golf course, redone by Mackenzie, redone

0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:17.440
<v Speaker 2>by Kyle Phillips. But you gotta you gotta go to

0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:22.480
<v Speaker 2>the cal Club. Green Hills has wonderful history. I don't

0:39:22.520 --> 0:39:25.799
<v Speaker 2>know if I would stop there. You gotta go to

0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:28.840
<v Speaker 2>north Woods to play the nine hole? Is it Mackenzie

0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:31.120
<v Speaker 2>did up there in the in the in Napa Valley.

0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:36.120
<v Speaker 2>But I would split between north Woods and Sharp Park.

0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 2>And you may ask why Sharp Park? And many people

0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:46.920
<v Speaker 2>would say why Sharp Park. At that time when that

0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:51.240
<v Speaker 2>golf course was built and it being a public golf

0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:57.120
<v Speaker 2>course today, it was probably one of the coolest settings

0:39:57.160 --> 0:40:03.480
<v Speaker 2>in California for golf. You could almost walk on the

0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:07.920
<v Speaker 2>beach playing the two holes going to the south before

0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:13.239
<v Speaker 2>they were washed away. And I've played golf there with

0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:19.200
<v Speaker 2>bowl Linx. I've played golf there with the group trying

0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:22.640
<v Speaker 2>to restore it. I played golf there with Ron Whitten

0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:27.040
<v Speaker 2>when we walked and shared a golf bag, and we've

0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:32.360
<v Speaker 2>all stood there and thought what this place could be like,

0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:35.160
<v Speaker 2>what it was like, I'm sorry, what it was like

0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:39.120
<v Speaker 2>before the dyke was installed. And I think everybody who's

0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:44.200
<v Speaker 2>a Mackenzie or at least a Golden Age architect history

0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:47.239
<v Speaker 2>buff should go see Shark Parking and stand there and

0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:51.759
<v Speaker 2>think what it was at one time and it's and

0:40:51.800 --> 0:40:55.320
<v Speaker 2>it's in the history of golf architecture. How cool it

0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:57.239
<v Speaker 2>would be? Did that total ten?

0:40:57.920 --> 0:41:03.080
<v Speaker 1>I think yeah? I mean I think Northwoods you could

0:41:03.520 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 1>since it's only nine. I've seen pictures of that place

0:41:06.200 --> 0:41:06.959
<v Speaker 1>looks so cool.

0:41:07.719 --> 0:41:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you gotta go.

0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:13.840
<v Speaker 1>Too many places. I gotta go do just a pure

0:41:13.920 --> 0:41:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Mackenzie tour of the West Coast.

0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:22.600
<v Speaker 2>It's yep. The so with that, So that's my ten.

0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:26.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure everybody would tell you something different. Andy, you

0:41:26.440 --> 0:41:28.919
<v Speaker 2>would probably come up with different numbers, but that's my ten.

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:32.320
<v Speaker 1>That's the beauty of golf courses. Everybody has a little

0:41:32.320 --> 0:41:35.120
<v Speaker 1>bit different taste, and everybody has a little bit, you know,

0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:38.920
<v Speaker 1>different view on what what's good and what's what's great

0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:41.600
<v Speaker 1>and uh, but all of them are are awesome. I

0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:46.759
<v Speaker 1>was positive Tiempo God, I've I've told some people this,

0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:51.920
<v Speaker 1>but you know, that place has got to be one of,

0:41:52.120 --> 0:41:56.239
<v Speaker 1>if not the most architecturally sound course that anybody can

0:41:56.239 --> 0:41:56.720
<v Speaker 1>go play.

0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Unbelievable place. And I've been lucky to be associated with

0:42:02.600 --> 0:42:05.719
<v Speaker 2>Pasa Temple for twenty years. I'm actually going back there

0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:09.479
<v Speaker 2>in January. We're going to continue to do some tea

0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:12.759
<v Speaker 2>box work. And somebody would say, well, why is the

0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:16.040
<v Speaker 2>tea box is so important? The starting ground is so important.

0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:20.400
<v Speaker 2>And if you've ever read in Robert Hunter's book The Links,

0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:23.560
<v Speaker 2>he talks about in a chapter how a golf course

0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:26.359
<v Speaker 2>should start, and he said that the golf course should

0:42:26.440 --> 0:42:29.480
<v Speaker 2>start and finish in the same manner, as close to

0:42:29.520 --> 0:42:33.120
<v Speaker 2>the ground as possible, and with the same intent. And

0:42:33.440 --> 0:42:39.600
<v Speaker 2>that's again a paraphrase. But I working with the superintendent

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:43.000
<v Speaker 2>and the Greens Committee at Passa Temple, we're going to

0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:45.279
<v Speaker 2>try to get some of that flavor back in the

0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:52.080
<v Speaker 2>teen grounds again. Working there for twenty years with the Greens,

0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:57.080
<v Speaker 2>expansion of the Greens, it's been a treat. You are right,

0:42:57.400 --> 0:43:02.479
<v Speaker 2>it's an architectural genius golf course using the barancas. Could

0:43:02.480 --> 0:43:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I have put Pasa Champel in front of Cypress Point probably,

0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I probably could have played three or four times at

0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Pasa Tempo and twice at Cypress in the Valley Club,

0:43:12.560 --> 0:43:17.160
<v Speaker 2>But I just you can't pass up the beauty of

0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Cypress Point. But Pasa Champel has everything that any golfer

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:26.160
<v Speaker 2>would want in architectural design and strategy and what a

0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:29.040
<v Speaker 2>place as you as you have attested to, Yeah, I.

0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:31.799
<v Speaker 1>Think I you know, you look at it. They get

0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:35.279
<v Speaker 1>so many rounds a year. But if if you and

0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:38.800
<v Speaker 1>it's and for that's another reason why it's almost unfair

0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.480
<v Speaker 1>to compare golf courses like that, Like because if that

0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:46.000
<v Speaker 1>golf course, if it was a really exclusive club that

0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:49.000
<v Speaker 1>got ten thousand rounds a year, you could do you

0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:52.399
<v Speaker 1>know a little bit more, you know, stuff that would

0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:55.759
<v Speaker 1>probably make it one of the five to ten best

0:43:55.800 --> 0:43:57.120
<v Speaker 1>golf courses in America.

0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, there is a point in which you

0:44:02.680 --> 0:44:10.720
<v Speaker 2>have to decide, and you're a point about being private

0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:14.759
<v Speaker 2>versus public. I think the bonus about it about it

0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:18.759
<v Speaker 2>being public is more people get to experience it. And

0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:22.200
<v Speaker 2>for me, the more people that get to see Possa

0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Temple and Mackenzie and the Hunter's genius the better. Maybe

0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:32.080
<v Speaker 2>don't maybe there's just not enough exposure to other Mackenzie courses,

0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:36.000
<v Speaker 2>But because Possa Temple is public, more people get to

0:44:36.000 --> 0:44:38.439
<v Speaker 2>play in. So I think it's a good thing. But yes,

0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:41.960
<v Speaker 2>could you do something different? Yeah, you probably could not

0:44:42.080 --> 0:44:49.160
<v Speaker 2>much different. You couldn't change much, but man the ability

0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:52.680
<v Speaker 2>for the public to play Possa Temple what a place,

0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:55.959
<v Speaker 2>and that we were able to keep the golf course

0:44:56.040 --> 0:44:59.920
<v Speaker 2>open during that whole time of restoring it, which was

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:02.840
<v Speaker 2>a key point. That was the key point to this.

0:45:02.960 --> 0:45:06.200
<v Speaker 2>And you brought this question up at the beginning of

0:45:06.239 --> 0:45:10.120
<v Speaker 2>our discussion. You said, what was the what was the

0:45:10.400 --> 0:45:13.640
<v Speaker 2>how you get the club to buy into something? Well,

0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:17.600
<v Speaker 2>the intent to Pasa Tempo. The statement says nothing will

0:45:17.600 --> 0:45:20.200
<v Speaker 2>be done to this golf course. That doesn't represent what

0:45:20.280 --> 0:45:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Pasa Tempo and Mackenzie's strategies, designs intent was. And I

0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:28.960
<v Speaker 2>used the old aeriel, I used the ground photos and

0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:31.440
<v Speaker 2>that was my intent from the beginning. That was the

0:45:31.440 --> 0:45:34.000
<v Speaker 2>club's intent from the beginning. And when we go back

0:45:34.040 --> 0:45:37.560
<v Speaker 2>and do the tee and grounds next year, we will

0:45:37.600 --> 0:45:42.120
<v Speaker 2>add one more step to the restoration of Pasa Tempo

0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:46.400
<v Speaker 2>and people will just love the look. They still they

0:45:46.440 --> 0:45:48.560
<v Speaker 2>already liked the look. You want am I kid myself,

0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:51.560
<v Speaker 2>but we just add one more step to that to

0:45:51.760 --> 0:45:56.520
<v Speaker 2>complete Mackenzie's dream where he passed away, where his house

0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:59.200
<v Speaker 2>was located on the sixth hole, as you well aware,

0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:04.720
<v Speaker 2>and it really is a Hall of Fame of holes

0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:05.680
<v Speaker 2>for Mackenzie.

0:46:06.560 --> 0:46:09.000
<v Speaker 1>So we we've talked about a lot of great golf

0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:11.839
<v Speaker 1>courses and I and we've actually touched on the on

0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:16.759
<v Speaker 1>the idea of scale and design. Do you think it's

0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:20.240
<v Speaker 1>a necessity for you know, really great golf design.

0:46:22.120 --> 0:46:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Scale yep.

0:46:25.480 --> 0:46:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:34.520
<v Speaker 2>I would have said scale was important. Uh, the big

0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:37.400
<v Speaker 2>scale was important because my favorite golf course, the National

0:46:37.400 --> 0:46:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Golf Links of America, is big in scale. But there's

0:46:43.120 --> 0:46:49.719
<v Speaker 2>something about having a border of of or a baranka

0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:56.120
<v Speaker 2>or a tree line that invokes just a little more

0:46:56.160 --> 0:47:00.680
<v Speaker 2>touch of strategy that I don't think you can downplay.

0:47:01.120 --> 0:47:06.280
<v Speaker 2>So is scale important, Yes, if you were building big

0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:10.680
<v Speaker 2>scale golf courses, I think they're phenomenal looking and fun

0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:15.760
<v Speaker 2>to play and look at. Do I discount golf courses

0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:19.160
<v Speaker 2>that are maybe a little bit smaller in scale, maybe

0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:23.520
<v Speaker 2>a little narrower and playing corridor with Yeah, maybe so.

0:47:23.800 --> 0:47:28.320
<v Speaker 2>But I think that Pasa Temple on a little smaller

0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:32.959
<v Speaker 2>scale offers everything that the big scale National Golf Links

0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:37.080
<v Speaker 2>of America offers. I think you could have both. I

0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:42.719
<v Speaker 2>think mixing and matching is important, opening up fairways in

0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:46.880
<v Speaker 2>between holes. I have a great old photo again on

0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:50.680
<v Speaker 2>my office wall of the first hole of Pasa Tempo

0:47:50.920 --> 0:47:53.120
<v Speaker 2>when there were no trees in between one and nine

0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:55.880
<v Speaker 2>and it was one big open playing field. That's pretty

0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:58.839
<v Speaker 2>big scale, and that's what mackenzie was working on when

0:47:58.880 --> 0:48:01.440
<v Speaker 2>he was working at Pasa Temple. You know, trees evolve,

0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:04.920
<v Speaker 2>they grow up. Narrow was the corridors. But I think

0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:07.000
<v Speaker 2>you could have both. Does that answer your question?

0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:12.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it does. I think it's uh, you know,

0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:16.439
<v Speaker 1>it seems like with the modern new design, everything's going

0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:22.160
<v Speaker 1>to massive scale, expansive fair ways. But at the same time,

0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:25.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's kind of the pendulum swinging in each direction.

0:48:26.440 --> 0:48:29.120
<v Speaker 1>It seems like with golf design, and I'm just you know,

0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:32.440
<v Speaker 1>I think it could get too big.

0:48:34.560 --> 0:48:39.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, we built Old McDonald for Mike Kaiger at

0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:42.880
<v Speaker 2>the Band and Dunes Resort. I was involved with Pacific

0:48:42.960 --> 0:48:46.680
<v Speaker 2>Dunes as well. Pacific Dunes a little bit smaller scale,

0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:51.600
<v Speaker 2>Old McDonald a much bigger scale, And I could only

0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:55.600
<v Speaker 2>use those two points of references in my in my

0:48:55.719 --> 0:49:00.360
<v Speaker 2>discussion with you for everything that Pacific Dunes off the

0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:08.640
<v Speaker 2>golfer in beauty and scale and and and playability McDonald.

0:49:08.880 --> 0:49:14.680
<v Speaker 2>Old McDonald offers something different to play the first hole

0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:21.800
<v Speaker 2>at Old McDonald upper right fairway, lower left fairway, center

0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:25.760
<v Speaker 2>fairway with the Principal's nose on the double plateau. That's

0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:31.359
<v Speaker 2>for me. Fun links golf at its finest. But when

0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:34.200
<v Speaker 2>you play, have you played Pacific Dunes and Old Mac Andy,

0:49:34.520 --> 0:49:34.799
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:37.760
<v Speaker 1>It's another place I got to get to. I worked

0:49:37.800 --> 0:49:40.800
<v Speaker 1>too many years in tech and not enough years in golf.

0:49:42.880 --> 0:49:45.319
<v Speaker 2>Well you'll get there, and I know you'll. You'll you'll

0:49:45.360 --> 0:49:47.920
<v Speaker 2>love all of the golf course. You'll love trails for

0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:50.960
<v Speaker 2>when it speaks of beauty. You'll love Bannon Dunes for

0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:54.080
<v Speaker 2>what David Kidd did in the beginning that allowed us

0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:57.760
<v Speaker 2>to all work there. And uh, you'll like Pacific Dunes

0:49:57.760 --> 0:50:01.480
<v Speaker 2>and Old Mac for different reasons. And I love the

0:50:01.520 --> 0:50:05.640
<v Speaker 2>big scale of Old McDonald. I love almost five point

0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:09.719
<v Speaker 2>five acres of greens similar to Saint Andrews in Scotland.

0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:13.160
<v Speaker 2>I love that scale. I think it offers strategy. I

0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:17.440
<v Speaker 2>think it offers a different playing field depending on the

0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:22.200
<v Speaker 2>way the wind blows. I think it offers every golfer

0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.680
<v Speaker 2>a chance to make a recovery shot. But for everything

0:50:25.760 --> 0:50:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Old McDonald offers in big scale, I think Cypress points.

0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:34.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm sorry. Pacific Dunes offers in a little

0:50:34.280 --> 0:50:37.359
<v Speaker 2>bit more intimate scale. Playing the seventh and eighth holes

0:50:37.360 --> 0:50:40.400
<v Speaker 2>at Pacific Dunes, those are fun holes to play, a

0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:44.600
<v Speaker 2>little more intimate, a little more guarded around the greens,

0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:49.160
<v Speaker 2>a little more interest. They're all different. Is big scale

0:50:49.719 --> 0:50:53.000
<v Speaker 2>in vogue right now? Yeah? It probably is. I saw

0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:57.399
<v Speaker 2>Corn Crenshaw's layout at the Sand Valley and I saw

0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:01.399
<v Speaker 2>David Kids layout at Mammoth Dudentes. Wow have you seen

0:51:01.440 --> 0:51:01.839
<v Speaker 2>those yet?

0:51:02.120 --> 0:51:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Massive?

0:51:03.600 --> 0:51:03.880
<v Speaker 2>Wow?

0:51:04.160 --> 0:51:09.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean Mammoth Dunes is aptly named, because aptly named.

0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Can should every golf course be Mammoth Doones? You know?

0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, But should everybody get a chance to

0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:23.359
<v Speaker 2>play Corn Crenshaw's Sand Valley and David Kids Mammothdoons? Absolutely

0:51:23.880 --> 0:51:27.960
<v Speaker 2>because it offers something that maybe a lot of golfers

0:51:28.000 --> 0:51:32.080
<v Speaker 2>don't ever get to experience, and that is the array

0:51:32.320 --> 0:51:37.359
<v Speaker 2>of shots you can play without restriction. And that's one

0:51:37.400 --> 0:51:40.560
<v Speaker 2>of the things I learned at Saint Andrews when I

0:51:40.680 --> 0:51:45.800
<v Speaker 2>first went. There is a golf course without borders, and

0:51:46.560 --> 0:51:51.960
<v Speaker 2>that has been my stable of design and the way

0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:56.239
<v Speaker 2>I lay out grassing lines at New golf courses that

0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm involved with and the way I lay out presentation,

0:51:59.600 --> 0:52:03.919
<v Speaker 2>grassing lines on restorations. Try not to have a golf

0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:09.000
<v Speaker 2>course with borders. It's so much more freedom, and I

0:52:09.160 --> 0:52:13.200
<v Speaker 2>hope that people understand what I'm trying to say. Mammoth

0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Dunes and current Cronshaw Sand Valley, they give you the

0:52:17.160 --> 0:52:19.719
<v Speaker 2>freedom to play and that's so important.

0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's uh. I'm a big proponent of

0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:29.279
<v Speaker 1>with you know, I think it's the But what you

0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:32.359
<v Speaker 1>touched on I think is important is that the great

0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:36.840
<v Speaker 1>thing about golf is variety, and having variety among design

0:52:37.000 --> 0:52:38.719
<v Speaker 1>theories is really important.

0:52:39.960 --> 0:52:43.719
<v Speaker 2>I think it is. And I think that for one

0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:45.759
<v Speaker 2>of the things that I think Mike Kaijer did so

0:52:45.920 --> 0:52:50.400
<v Speaker 2>wonderful abandon dune'es was that he gave you four different

0:52:50.840 --> 0:52:56.320
<v Speaker 2>golf course in the same setting. And that is variety.

0:52:56.719 --> 0:52:59.359
<v Speaker 2>And I think Sand Valley is a little different than

0:52:59.440 --> 0:53:04.600
<v Speaker 2>Mammoth Due up in Wisconsin, and a lot of the

0:53:04.680 --> 0:53:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Golden Age designs, for example, my five favorite designs are

0:53:09.520 --> 0:53:12.560
<v Speaker 2>have so much different variety. I go from the National

0:53:12.600 --> 0:53:16.200
<v Speaker 2>Golf Links of America to Prairie Dunes. What a contrast.

0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I go from Pinehurst number two one of my top

0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:24.440
<v Speaker 2>fives to Cyprus point what a contrast, And so I

0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:28.719
<v Speaker 2>think about those golf courses being contrasting and having variety.

0:53:29.360 --> 0:53:31.800
<v Speaker 2>And that's what the two golf courses I was involved with,

0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:34.759
<v Speaker 2>Abandoned Dunes give you specific dudes, and Old Mac they

0:53:34.840 --> 0:53:38.040
<v Speaker 2>give you variety. That's all you want. You want something

0:53:38.200 --> 0:53:42.000
<v Speaker 2>different and not the same old that does it.

0:53:42.080 --> 0:53:45.240
<v Speaker 1>For part one of our podcasts with Jim Orbina, checking

0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:48.759
<v Speaker 1>on the feed on Thursday for part two. Now you've

0:53:48.840 --> 0:53:52.320
<v Speaker 1>been listening to the Egg podcast, we do the digging

0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:53.080
<v Speaker 1>for you.