1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: Even before I read your book, I always go and 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: look at the author picture. I laughed so hardly. In 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: the back of your author picture, you saw Markey Jesus. Okay, 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I painted him myself, I'll say. 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: And one of those like you know, those places where 6 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: you can drink wine and paint, and just like in 7 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: the strip, there's one in my neighborhood in Brooklyn, and 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: I just didhammered and painted Monkey Jesus. And it's I 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: think about Cecilia Himenez. I think that the woman who 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: just google aka Homo and see that there was this 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: sort of I feel like it was from the thirties. 12 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: It was like this picture by Elias Martinez and this 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: very lovely custodian of a church did it did a 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: terrible restoration, restoration and it looks he looks. I hope 15 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: it looks like Monkey Jesus now. But it's places that 16 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:57,639 Speaker 1: humans have ever done. Just it's so good, so brilliant. Hello, 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: I'm Mini driver, I'm welcome to many questions. I've always 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 1: loved Pru's questionnaire. It was originally an eighteenth century parlor 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: game meant to reveal an individual's true nature, but with 20 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: so many questions, there wasn't really an opportunity to expand 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: on anything. So I took the format of Pruce's questionnaire 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: and adapted What I think are seven of the most 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: important questions you could ever ask someone. They are when 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: and where were you happiest? What is the quality you 25 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: like least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: love for you? What question would you most like answered, 27 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: What person, place, or experience has shaped you the most? 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: What would be your last meal? And can you tell 29 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: me something in your life that has grown out of 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: a personal disaster. The more people we ask, the more 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: we begin to see what makes us similar and what 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: makes us individual. I've gathered a group of really remarkable 33 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: people who I am honored and humbled to have had 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: a chance to engage with. My guest today is author 35 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: and journalist Gia Talentino. Gia wrote a New York Times 36 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: best selling book of essays called Trick Mirror, which is 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: this sharp, critically dexterous examination of how we exist in 38 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: this particular societal prism. She is a stark, deep, hilariously 39 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: funny voice of her millennial generation. She grew up in 40 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: a Houston megachurch that was so enormous they called it 41 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: the repentagon. I was fascinated as to how a person 42 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: who has been relentlessly administered a certain set of moral 43 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: and religious ideas breaks free from it. It turns out 44 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: Gia is a world builder from her own questioning and imagination. 45 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: She is so not precious about all the things she knows, 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: and is fantastically positive about all the different lives it 47 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: seems she has lived. She is a vivid her, a 48 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: tick woman of fast interests, and it was an enormous 49 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: pleasure to have the opportunity to talk to her. So 50 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: we have been digging into the Britney Spears saga for 51 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: the last like six months, and it's such you know, 52 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure you saw the news about the hearing, devastating. 53 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: It was traumatic listening to her testimony. I had a 54 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: baby during the pandemic, and it's it's really kind of 55 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: this early reinforced, you know, the way she was treated. 56 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: She had two children within thirteen months. She was pounded 57 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: everywhere she went. Like if I had been dogged by 58 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: fifty men shouting things at me to get a response, 59 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: and I was carrying a crying baby, I probably would 60 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: have gotten in my car, put the baby on my lap, 61 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: and driven away. You know, I would have hit the 62 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: man with the umbrella, not the car. You know, Yes, 63 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: it happened to me. I mean it happened repeatedly when 64 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: Henry was tiny, but particularly an airport when Henry was 65 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: three months old, and it was a female paparazzi, which 66 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: I think made it so much worse. And the things 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: that they were saying to try and elicit a response, 68 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: and the flashes were making the baby jolt. I can't 69 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: imagine that. I'm not saying that there is any real 70 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: equivalency between myself and Brittney Spears, but in that instance 71 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: of knowing the insanity as a new mother, feeling attacked 72 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: and hunted absolutely Like now, I'm like, I'm trying to 73 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: imagine what I would have been like to have to 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, she got pregnant two and a half months 75 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: after giving birth, right, yeah, I mean I the pandemic 76 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: kind of afforded a surprisingly lovely postpartum experience that I 77 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: wasn't expecting because you know, it was a cocoon. But 78 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: if there had been a camera on me for even 79 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: one second, I would have looked like I was certifiable. Like, 80 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: it's just you're unraveled for so long, but there is 81 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: no latitude. There is no latitude given to women right 82 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: for this moment after It's extraordinary. Mean, I don't know 83 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: why I'm surprised, given that there's so much less latitude 84 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: given to women in general for childbirth and mothering and 85 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: taking care of children and maternity leaves and paternity leaves. Yeah, 86 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: it's shocking. And only if you've experienced that roller coaster 87 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: of hormones that happens after was that you do need 88 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: a gentleman, ironman like you had. Yeah, And even in 89 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: a gentle environment, it's still hard, Yeah, because there's a 90 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: calibration that you have to take care of this tiny 91 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: creature and make sure nothing happens to it and feed 92 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: it and take care of yourself. But also that you're 93 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: your life is completely and utterly changed. But isn't it 94 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: interesting like that women become these totems to further this 95 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: sort of systemic abuse. I was watching an old episode 96 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: of Sex in the City, which you know, I happen 97 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: to love. I just watched it for the first time. 98 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: It's like eating cotton candy, Like I enjoy it, but 99 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,239 Speaker 1: I was watching an episode and a young girl who's 100 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: saying that she's saving herself for marriage, and Sarah Jessica 101 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: Parker's character says, you know, well, what do you consider sex? 102 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: And the girl went, well, I didn't Lewinsky him or anything. 103 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: When I think about the abuse that a young woman 104 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: like Monica Lewinsky withstood through, what was a savage takedown 105 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: and what should have been a takedown of a different person, 106 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: of a different person than yet there she was. We've 107 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: literally had the scarlet letter placed on us in all 108 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: these different forms for time immemorial, and our idea of 109 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: equality is different from that of men. This is why, 110 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: because it is so oddly perverse, because it is in 111 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: every area, even in something is sweet confection as sex 112 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: in the city, there is this blatant acknowledgement that this 113 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: woman is apparently a whore or did something that you know, 114 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: she was only accountable for right the extent to which Brittany, 115 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: But I think kind of all women in the public 116 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: eye inevitably end up experiencing sort of projection of cultural 117 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: fears and desires that in Brittany's case, I think, really 118 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: composed the entire structure from life. I mean, I've been 119 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: thinking about it so much. I'm sure you have. I mean, 120 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure you have. Gosh, Oh, I could talk to 121 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: you all day. We get to talk her an hour. 122 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: My first question is when and where were you happiest. 123 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: One thing that I have realized I had a baby 124 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, which was a real sort of reintroduction 125 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: to the control bowling forces of sort of hormones and 126 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: chemicals within one's body and psychological state. I write about 127 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: it in an essay in my book where I talk 128 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: about the feeling of ecstasy. One of the things that 129 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: I feel luckiest about in this life is that temperamentally, 130 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: I've been blessed with pretty sunny mental weather. I find 131 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: a feeling of sort of ecstatic joy. When I was 132 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: a child, I felt it constantly, you know, just riding 133 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: my bike with the son at a certain angle, or 134 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: jumping into a pool, or having a day with nothing 135 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: to do but reading, or seeing all my friends at 136 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: the playground or ice skating in a circle in the rank, 137 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: seeing my family at dinner. I was constantly full, like 138 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: brimming with this sort of ecstatic happiness. I would feel 139 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: it listening to music playing in someone's car. I felt 140 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: it when I was out dancing, I felt when I 141 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: was eating a really good bite of food. I found 142 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: this feeling of just kind of an unfettered happiness. And 143 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: it's been interesting sort of seeing that in my baby, 144 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: who's now ten months old. I'm really just going right 145 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: in there. I recently, um like, stopped breastfeeding my child, 146 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: and for about a month, you know, it com leatly 147 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: changed the chemical composition of my brain and the ability 148 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: to access joy was completely removed from me. And I 149 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: realized how much of that quality of having happiness, you know, 150 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: right at hand, anytime the light was a certain way 151 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: or a song would hit a certain note. You know 152 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: how arbitrary that was, and how lucky I was to 153 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: have that feel so so common and so right under 154 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: the texture of my everyday experience. But you know, I 155 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: would say, like peak happiness. You know, for me, isn't 156 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: it like as an adult, like dancing at four in 157 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: the morning with my friends, being caught in a rainstorm, 158 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: Like doing acid and looking at a tree, you know, petting, 159 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: like walking with my dog by myself in the park 160 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: in New York City. You know that that's it for me. 161 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: I so feel all those things. Do you think that 162 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: it's a frequency, that there are certain conditions or chemicals 163 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: that one can use to access that frequency of happiness? 164 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: Because when I read that essay X to see in 165 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: Trick Mara, I was so brilliant because I remembered that 166 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: that when I was a kid, drugs would take me 167 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: to that place. Now surfing takes me to that place. 168 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: Being with my son takes me to that place. Being 169 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: out in the desert, meditating takes me to that place, 170 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: which makes me think that that place is always there, 171 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,599 Speaker 1: it's just how we find our way into it. Do 172 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: you think that it's a frequency? I tend to act 173 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: as if that is what it is and try to 174 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: do the things that turned me into that frequency. I mean, 175 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: I think you know the things that you're describing surfing, 176 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: being with your son, being in the middle of the desert, 177 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: and meditating, these are things that you know, you get 178 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: like a sort of like almost instinctively kind of a 179 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: pre verbal almost just physically and existentially in tune, right, 180 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: And there's like a light that comes from that sensation. 181 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: And I think it is a frequency. And I think 182 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: that you know that was that historically has been my 183 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: attraction to psychedelics or you know, like like drugs you 184 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: you ow music, I mean music, like we'll take you 185 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: to the same because there are enough instances when you 186 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: it has taken me to the same place that the 187 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: music plus the ecstasy would have taken. Right when I 188 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: was pregnant and couldn't do drugs, I was like, man, 189 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: I need to feel when I was playing. You know, 190 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: I remember this morning. It was the middle of the pandemic. 191 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: I remember one night driving through like kind of an 192 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: empty New York City on the way to a doctor's 193 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: appointment or something, and I was like, I need to 194 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: feel it. And I turned on a song, like a 195 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: particular song and waited to feel it, and you know, 196 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: I felt the flicker. You know it's but then, you know, 197 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,599 Speaker 1: I realized how how lucky to have been able to 198 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: access the frequency. And I think that's where you say 199 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: having a sunny, a sunny experience of mental health, if 200 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,599 Speaker 1: it was so easy, like if everyone could just do it, 201 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: everyone exactly, And I mean, isn't that what the what 202 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: what antidepressants or what certain drugs are supposed to do, 203 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: which is to help you potentially access or at least 204 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: put you in a place where you are more more 205 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: open to it. But we're so chemically bound. I mean, 206 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: you say stopping breastfeeding. I had exactly the same experience. 207 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: But because you've been flooded with oxytse, and you have 208 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: been flooded with the happiest, most loving, divine connected hormone 209 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: in existence. For me, it makes testosterone look like a 210 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: kind of wet salami sandwich, like it's it's so divine, 211 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: it is so divinely experienced and feels like it is 212 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: divinely given that when you take that away, no wonder 213 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: you feel bereft. I'm glad to hear that you experiment 214 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: with your ways into that. In fact, when I was 215 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: talking about your book Trick Mirror with a couple of 216 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: girlfriends who really experienced depression, they said that reading the 217 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: essay on ecstasy, it gave such a vantage point of 218 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: how there are may be other ways in that they 219 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: don't let themselves. They so identify themselves as depressed people 220 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: that allowing that experiential stuff might help them find a 221 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: different pathway in was super helpful. You know, you're talking 222 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: about a frequency that you you have to kind of 223 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: actively put yourself within the band. For um, it's you know, 224 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,239 Speaker 1: they do. There's so much stuff on sort of psychedelic 225 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: therapy and sort of you know, like and even like 226 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: end of life UM therapy, you know, M D M 227 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: A therapy absolutely, and I and I really do think 228 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: that there's something I mean that was it has served 229 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: that purpose. You know. I'm wary of doing this too 230 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: much or relying on it solely, but you know, there's 231 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: something to be said for reminding yourself that this frequency 232 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: is available to you, you know, and sometimes you might 233 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: have to use an artificial means to access it, and 234 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: maybe you wouldn't want to do that all the time, 235 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: but it has served that purpose for me, is reminding 236 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: like I am capable of feeling just unbelievably grateful to 237 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: be alive. You know, that's amazing. That's amazing. Okay, So 238 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: what relations and ship, real fictionalized defines love for you? 239 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: This is such a good question and it made me 240 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: reconfront all of the answers that occurred in my mind. 241 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: None of them were romantic, and this is something that 242 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: I haven't yet figured out about myself. But I know, like, 243 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: on the one hand, I I have been so drawn 244 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: to really traditional almost stereotypical route. You know, I've been 245 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: in basically, I've been in monogamous relationships almost unbroken since 246 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: I was sixteen. You know, I'm drawn to just to 247 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: like traditional notions of romantic love, and yet I find 248 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: it incredibly uninteresting. And I haven't really squared. I'm not 249 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,599 Speaker 1: that interested in love stories, you know, I'm not. I 250 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: can't those like sweeping love stories and film and and 251 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: you know in books and literature, I'm not. I'm not 252 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: drawn to them. I don't find them interesting. Even in 253 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,479 Speaker 1: in music, I find the drama of sort of attraction 254 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: much more interesting, and songs about love and and so 255 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: when I and I don't know, I still haven't figured 256 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: out what that is because in my actions, that's it's 257 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: it's been a primary thing that I care about and 258 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: structure my life around. But I think my experience of 259 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: love is almost it's so and this is something that 260 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: I feel lucky about it. It's so kind of familiar 261 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: and natural that it's almost boring. Which isn't to say 262 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: that I find love in my daily life boring, but 263 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: as a concept anyway, So when I thought about this question, 264 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, the things I think that what I really 265 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: that what defines love for me our relationships structured around care. 266 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: I think I thought about like this was another thing 267 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: that I thought about having a baby in the pandemic, 268 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: was sort of like, this is what love is. The 269 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: extraordinary lengths that people go to in circumstances around the 270 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: world that are often phenomenally difficult in ways that I 271 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: can you know, hardly speak to or imagine what people 272 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: do on every day basis to take care of the 273 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: people in their family and the people that they love. 274 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: I think that I think of that, that caretaking and 275 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: devotion that to me is what love is, and on 276 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: a really sort of every day and maybe that is 277 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: why maybe that does connect to the way I think 278 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: of romantic love as this sort of almost mundane thing. 279 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: Is that love to me is, like I think about, 280 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: what defines love for me is a sort of everyday 281 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: commitment or something like that, and not romantically, and in 282 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: terms of an everyday commitment to taking care of and 283 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: watching out for and safeguarding you know, the well being 284 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: of a parent, a child, a partner, a friend, right 285 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: hopefully you know, often strangers too. I think I think 286 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: of just this every day, these everyday actions. When I 287 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: was young I remember my first this is so funny. 288 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: I just remember this when I was maybe an elementary school. 289 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: One morning, I woke up sobbing because I had had 290 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: this dream about a bicycle, a bicycle in an empty 291 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: playground that nobody had, like that was just there and 292 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: nobody had picked it up, nobody had claimed it. And 293 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: I woke up sobbing, like thinking, like, someone has to 294 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: take care of this bicycle. And I think, and that 295 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: to me was one of the first I think that 296 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: was an early understanding of what love is. And I 297 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: think I had another sort of shocking realization of of that. 298 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: I remember, you know, back to the breastfeeding thing, but 299 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, I mean it is kind of I remember, 300 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: it's huge and I and I think that's really the 301 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: experience that you know, people say like motherhood will change 302 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: you or whatever, and I think, really it was the 303 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: sort of hormonal tsunami that came breastfeeding that made me understand. 304 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: I remember, like day three back from the hospital, when 305 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: my milk came in, I could feel in my body 306 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: just this this existential desire to to take care and 307 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: like the responsibility and the desire and the sweetness and 308 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: the like monstrosity of needing and wanting to take care 309 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: of somebody for as long as they live. Basically, yeah, 310 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: that's such a beautiful That is such a beautiful way 311 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: of putting it. It is overwhelming, which love is right, 312 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: but also every day right, it's it's every single day, 313 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: which dovetails into also the letting. I've talked about this 314 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: a bit, but what no one ever seemed to talk 315 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: about with motherhood is that the very act of giving 316 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: birth is the thing that you will have to do 317 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: most with your child, which is to let go of them. 318 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: And it is this this constant process. How do you 319 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: want to continue to give something everything when you also 320 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: have to continually be letting them go in order to 321 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: have the experience that they came here to have, which 322 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: it's Do you have any advice for me? Um? Yes, 323 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: I do? I do? My God, what would my advice be? 324 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: Keep it in your heart that but I think you 325 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: already do, just from having read your book, But that 326 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: notion that nothing is guaranteed, and that every single moment 327 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: is leading up to this moment where you really, you 328 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: really do completely let them go to be free. But 329 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 1: you must always underwrite that. So it's kind of being 330 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: very being very strict with yourself about what your job 331 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: as custodian is and how much they are serving your 332 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: needs and insecurities as opposed to you dealing with that ship, 333 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: and then really underwriting the person that they are becoming. 334 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: So it's just paying attention to who they are. I 335 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: really have tried not to shove my sweet Henry into 336 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: any box, and as a result, very young, he has 337 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: been self determining. And that's not you know, oh the kids, 338 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: Oh you know, I'm just gonna let my kid flingers 339 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: po across the room because I want them to be 340 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: free to be him. It's not that. It's about really 341 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: really feeling and seeing whether interest lies and encouraging that 342 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: and not hammering the stuff that we think they should learn, 343 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: because they're going to learn that if you're if you're 344 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: kind and loving and you keep letting them go, because 345 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: no one tells you to teach yourself to let your 346 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: child go. But it's really the number one thing as 347 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: a as a mother that I've learned. It's hard, but 348 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: it's the best possible thing because I think it's what 349 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: brings them, It's what will always bring them back. Yeah, 350 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: it will always keep them connected. To you is knowing 351 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 1: that they're free to fly, and they're like homing pigeons. 352 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: I've just come home. I'm going to hang onto this 353 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: and remember it. And I and I think for me, 354 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: there was something that I felt thankful for in the 355 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: way that pregnancy and childbirth was in itself sort of 356 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: physically instructive, how it physically reinforced the sort of existential 357 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: and practical thing that you would have to do later 358 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: write that you could never like you had to understand 359 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: that nothing was ever guaranteed, that nothing is ever certain. 360 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, I found that to be like a useful 361 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: existential lesson about the world's And I mean, it really 362 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: is what person, place, or experience most altered your life. 363 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: I grew up in an extremely conservative religious community in Texas, 364 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: going mostly on scholarship to a very very ultra Christian 365 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: school attached to one of the biggest mega churches in 366 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: the country. And I have realized increasingly I wouldn't say 367 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: that I'm a straightforward product of that environment, but it 368 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: was the entirety of my world from age four to sixteen, 369 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: let's say. And without that experience, I think I would 370 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: be significantly different. I lost religion, I would say maybe 371 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: high school. You know, my politics veered very far left 372 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: as soon as I got to college. I mean, you know, 373 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: I grew up I never met a liberal person, I 374 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: never met a feminist. I never met anyone that was 375 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: pro choice. It was very, very kind of a homogeneous 376 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: in every way. It was a white, very rich environment. 377 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: But I think what that did to me was at 378 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: a fundamental level, and I think this has served me 379 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: in writing and in thinking. I think it it made 380 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: me understand the default state of life as one in 381 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: which nobody would necessarily agree with you, and that was okay. 382 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: Your opinion did not have to be validated by the 383 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: people around you. It gave me a sort of quasi 384 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: lonely but like a true sort of independence within my 385 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: own brain. It also gave me, I think, an understanding 386 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: of political and sort of cultural views that I think 387 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: I technically find really imporrant. But growing up with only 388 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: people who believe these things made me understand how a 389 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,719 Speaker 1: view that I find apporran might manifest on the intimate, 390 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: everyday level to somebody who holds it. And I think 391 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: that a lot of my progressive politics came from growing 392 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: up in the church and not understanding why you know, 393 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: this Bible that I was having to read every single 394 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: day of my life for years, it seemed to me 395 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: to be this very clearly kind of like socialist and 396 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: aggressive thing that was interpreted in ways that were the 397 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: opposite sort of economic policies that were harsh and individualistic, 398 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: and my kind of confusion and anger about all of 399 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: that ended up shaping my politics into what they are now. 400 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: And then abidingly the last thing I'm left with, the 401 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: sort of vestigial almost desire for devotion. I crave and 402 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: respect and kind of venerate devotion. And that might have 403 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: something to do with my answer about love. And I 404 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: think that that came from the church. How extraordinary to 405 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: be in an environment of and I hope it's not 406 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: offensive to say indoctrination. No place I got. I got 407 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: a ring that said I wasn't going to have sex 408 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: when I was like seven, you know wow. But within 409 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: that environment, you can read the Bible and actually see 410 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: the beautiful, socialist, loving, inclusive text that is an interpretation 411 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: of it, whilst also being hammered with the idea that 412 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: Jesus was white and that it is an individualistic world 413 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: that we're living in undergo right, and like gay people 414 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: should not you know, well, the gay people shouldn't exist. 415 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: And how on earth did you how did you listen 416 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: to your own voice when you have this megavoice slamming you. 417 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: How did you do it? Well? I think that, you know, 418 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: the process that you're describing is no different from what 419 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: we were talking about before we started recording. It's like 420 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: maybe what every woman does to get themselves out of 421 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: the thumb of sort of patriarchal expectation, right, Like both 422 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: probably done our own individual like d programming out of 423 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: things that were kind of unequivocally grafted onto us at 424 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: a younger age, you know. And I've really never thought 425 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: about this except for the way that you just asked 426 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: the question. I am troubled by how well I sort 427 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: of adapted to fit in and like still wanted to 428 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: be cool and fit in with this environment that I 429 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: also openly hated. But still, you know, was a teenager. 430 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: But I think, you know, there were certain things. I 431 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: was not white, my family was not wealthy like those 432 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: other families. There was already a difference. There was already 433 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: some sort of separation that maybe made room for are 434 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: a lot of sort of private individual questioning. I also 435 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: had a couple of close friends that, you know, we 436 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: had preliminary versions of these conversations, not knowing what we 437 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: were talking about, but you know, there was a strong 438 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: desire to get out or to reach for something else 439 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: than what we've been given. And a few of my 440 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: friends we kind of reached for these things kind of blindly, 441 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: and I think that actually the real way, though it's 442 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: just writing. I think as an elementary schooler even I 443 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: was just this copious, copious journal er. And when I 444 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: was going back, I was reading my old diaries to 445 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: sort of fact check my book, and I had to 446 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: also remember that the transition away from these things it 447 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: feels significant, but it was gradual. It maybe you know, 448 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: started in seventh grade and reached a sort of working synthesis, 449 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: maybe at the end of college or something. You know. 450 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: I remember getting to college and a girl in one 451 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: of my classes introduced herself as a feminist, and I 452 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: was like, like, you know, performative much, you know, like 453 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: I was sort of like, that's so like eighties or 454 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, I don't even know what I said, but 455 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: there was a period of time where I was trying 456 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: to find a way to hold onto both. And I 457 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: think that period lasted for six or seven years. It 458 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: was a steady movement, but there was a long time 459 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: where I was trying to reconcile the environment that I 460 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: grew up in with the things that I kind of 461 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: instinctively felt were true. And in going back and reading 462 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: my journals, I had to remember it took a long time, 463 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: and I think the way I moved was just constantly 464 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: writing out my anxiety, writing out, you know, like there's 465 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: something strange about this, and then six months later I 466 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: would say, you know, I think what it is is this, 467 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: And then six months later I would realize, you know, 468 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: and it was just slowly, slowly, slowly. I think it's 469 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: really interesting. And again I'm not drawing any equivalency between 470 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: me and you, but what I do recognize is, in 471 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: the face of being told something that is apparently empirical, 472 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: that the stuff that you were being told, the stuff 473 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: that I was being told, was that you are going 474 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: to be unemployed and you'll be lucky if you do 475 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: some sort of corporate videos telling people where the exits are, 476 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: and you know, developing the idea of an independent thought 477 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: within a structure that feels impermeable. I think it's really interesting, 478 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: and I think that women have to do it an 479 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: enormous amount. Right, We're always having to get out of 480 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: structures that have been previously created. I'm so proud of you. 481 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: My heart is persty. What quality do you like least 482 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: about yourself? I have a long held beery that the 483 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: best and the worst qualities about ourselves are always deeply related. 484 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: For me, I think one of the best qualities of 485 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: myself is that I can be very carefree. I think 486 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: I am very easy going. But my least favorite quality 487 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: is that I can be incredibly careless on every level. 488 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: Careless to the level of, you know, losing my phone, wallet, 489 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: keys within the span of thirty weekends, to to I 490 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: think emotional carelessness like deep emotional carelessness. To deciding. I 491 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: think that when I choose to care about something, it 492 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: is like a true commitment. But I think it is 493 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: very easy for my brain to compartmentalize and say, like, 494 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: I do not need to recognize this as a concern, 495 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: a little too easy for me to turn off from. 496 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: And you know, this is something that has served me well. 497 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: On the other end of the spectrum, where I think 498 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: I'm really good and not worrying about certain things that 499 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: I can't control, sort of accepting on certainty and you 500 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: know whatever. But the flip side to it is everything 501 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: that I've ever regretted in my life, every real mistake 502 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: I've ever made, I think stems from equality of carelessness 503 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: so interesting that we don't think of it like that 504 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: as the thing that we like best about ourselves and 505 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: the thing that we like at least really being so 506 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: closely aligned. There's a rizzler paper, yeah, like thin bit 507 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: between carefree and careless, and there's and it's the opposite. 508 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: It's sort of like my my boyfriend, my partner who 509 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: like his like his best point. It's almost the option. 510 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: You know, when you're in a relationship, you have the 511 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: same fight over and over, yeah, you know, and it's 512 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: just always and like ours is the same, you know, 513 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: for twelve years. It's been me saying like, why do 514 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: you care so much about this dumb thing? And he's like, Jia, 515 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: why don't care about this really imparity thing? You know, 516 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: and his in his body like luckily they get mirrors 517 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: like his. I think his best quality is that he 518 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: is abundantly conscientious and detail oriented and caring, you know. 519 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: And the flip side is that you can be like 520 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: pedantic or over you know, critical or something you know, 521 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: but it's but they're entirely the same. It's the same quality. Anyways. 522 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: That's so funny. I find I've grown because I have 523 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: an extraordinarily detailed orientated boyfriend as well, and and I 524 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: realized it sets me off sometimes because I wish I 525 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: were like that. So really there's a kind of aspirational envy. Yeah, 526 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: has it made you any more detail are in being? What? 527 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: Do you know what? It's made me appreciate how shit 528 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: I am at that. But like I think that but 529 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: if it's a scale, only only I would notice that 530 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: the needle has actually flicked further forward into being more 531 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: but nobody else would notice that you do. But the 532 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: other great quality is patience he has. He has limitless 533 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: patience with you know, I feel most of the time 534 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: just like a really cumbersome luddite that he carries around 535 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: with him, like, you know, this is my girlfriend. She's 536 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: only just realized that they've invented the wheel. And but 537 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: he's so patient without being patronizing, And I think that's 538 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: what makes him sort of almost superhuman. But there is 539 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: a pedantry, And sometimes I'm like, you don't have to 540 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: look at all the little bits, just enjoy the whole. 541 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: We don't have to dissect it into all of these 542 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: little pieces. But then probably both of our lives are 543 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: enriched by like attentive detailed at all. I'm pretty sure 544 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: that I would I wouldn't be able to get half 545 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: bet in the morning. If I did, I would live 546 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: in a nest of books and clothes on the floor, 547 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: like everything would be getting shut off, and be like, 548 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: I wish there was some way to pay these bills, 549 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: some automated away someone happened. What question would you most 550 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: like answered? I think it would be like what is 551 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: the most useful possible way I could spend my life? 552 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: You know, because you struggle with this in a sort 553 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: of utilitarian sense, I often think, like what am I doing? 554 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: Like shouldn't I just be chained to a treat in 555 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: an old growth forest? Like shouldn't I be like at 556 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: the Texas Mexico Board or flinging myself in front of 557 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, like an ice facility, Even like you wonder 558 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: like I never expected that I would be able to 559 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: write for a living. I never expected that I would 560 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: have the privileged. You know, so few people in the 561 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: world get to do something that's creatively fulfilling and get 562 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: paid to do and get paid to do it. I 563 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: feel so phenomenally lucky to be able to do it. 564 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: And then sometimes I'm like, you know, is this just 565 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: sitting at my computer and writing an art? I think 566 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: that serves like an objective function and it's important. But 567 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, sometimes you just wonder like, should 568 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: I be doing something? You should? I should I go 569 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: to law school? And you know, this is very interesting. 570 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: This is very interesting because you wrote something. I don't 571 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: know where I read it, but I wrote it down here, 572 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: and everything that I write, I do hope to make 573 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: things clearer for the people who read it. Sure, yeah, 574 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: so I think that that is unbelievably useful and amazing. 575 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: To be able to articulate is a gift. God knows. 576 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: It's why we read. But I would also like to 577 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: say it's really interesting because even at a very young age, 578 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: you clearly have been worried about how do you save 579 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: all the bicycles? Right, It's quite interesting that that's been 580 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: a concern of yours, for it sounds like your whole 581 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: life is like, how do I save all the stuff? 582 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: It's like you're you're doing it. You're doing it through 583 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: the medium of writing, You're doing it through mothering, and like, 584 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: maybe you will change yourself to an old growth tree. 585 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: I know, maybe I will, Maybe you will at some 586 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: point do that. But I know what you mean about, 587 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: is there more that I should be doing? Yeah? You know, 588 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: and then there'll never be an objective answer. I think 589 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: what I do know is that you know when you 590 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: have a friend that they ask like, am I are 591 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: really bad? In person? Order? Am I? And it's like 592 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: you have to remind them that the fact that they're 593 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: always asking themselves this question is itself a guard against 594 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: the thing that they're worried about. I have a feeling 595 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: that this anxiety that's always in the back of my 596 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: mind that could I be using my time in a 597 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: better way? Could I be giving my impulses more to 598 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: the collective other than the individual. Like I think that 599 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: it is a kind of stick that I need to have. 600 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: I try to keep that stick going in a way 601 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: that is productive rather than sort of like uselessly self flagellating. Yeah, exactly. 602 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: It's such a great answer that question, like could somebody 603 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: tell me the exact thing that would be the most useful, 604 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: best use of my life? Here does someone tell me 605 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: if someone run the math? But again, I mean, I 606 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: think you just sort of answered it those well and 607 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: saying if you're asking that question, it means that you're 608 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: paying attention to what you are doing, which means you're 609 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: most likely holding that thought of is this the best 610 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: use of my time? I mean, God knows I do 611 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: enough stuff where I go. What am I doing is 612 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: usually just doing something incredibly mundane, and I'm like, what 613 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: am I doing? I feel like I should be doing 614 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: something ten times more productive, but it's not always possible. 615 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: So it's sort of like do it when you can write, 616 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: I get the steeling. When I'm like laying in bed 617 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: and needing to wind down. I'm just reading news that 618 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: I know I'm going to forget, and you know instantly 619 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: as soon as I read it, and it's like, you 620 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: know what, whatever. Sometimes the brain simply must eat some 621 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: garbage and then exactly. I wonder if some of the 622 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: people who are chained to the old growth trees, I 623 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: wonder if they think is there something more that I 624 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: could be doing? Because there's no stay cis in any 625 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: of this. There's no definitive answer. Yet, there's no there 626 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: there that even the person who is definitively doing what 627 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: we would objectively look at and go that person is 628 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: changing the world, they can't be doing it twenty four 629 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: hours a day, seven days a week. They themselves must question, 630 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 1: you know, is there more? Lord? Okay, So in your life, 631 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: can you tell me about something that has grown out 632 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: of a personal disaster. I'll say, I feel, you know, 633 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: another kind of luck that I've had in my life. 634 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: You know, I've been spared a lot of personal grief 635 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people have had to 636 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 1: go through. I have not had a very close family 637 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: member die anyway. This is just a way of saying 638 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: I've been spared a lot of disasters. But I think 639 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: that the closest thing to this question. When I was 640 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: out of college, I graduated right into the middle of 641 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: the two eight recession, I was like, you know, like 642 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: you were saying earlier, I was like, I'll never be employed, 643 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: I'll never do I'll never be able to make anything 644 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: of myself. I didn't know what to do when I 645 00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: joined the Peace Corps with all of this sort of 646 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: idealism and grand plans to you know, do good and 647 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: you know probably you know, these ultimately imperialistic desires to 648 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: save somebody or something. Right, maybe it's back to the 649 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: bicycle thing, Yeah, exactly. And you know, and that's an 650 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: uncomfortable and you know, in many ways sort of dehumanizing 651 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: way to think of other of other humans who are 652 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: your equals, right, But in terms of you feeling from 653 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: a very young age that there was service that needed 654 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: to be addressed. Yeah, and and so you know, and 655 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: I this was one of the most important periods of 656 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: my life. I went to Kyrgyzstan in Central Anesia and 657 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: it was it was a roller coaster of an experience. 658 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: We were evacuated to a military base twice. There was 659 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: essentially a genocide month too. There was a government coup 660 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: Day seven. I wanted the challenge of it, and I thought, 661 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, sort of humistically that you know, you come 662 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: out of this challenge stronger and you do all of 663 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: these things. And it was a sort of singularly defining 664 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: lesson that your intentions and your outcomes. There's often a massive, 665 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: sort of unbridgeable gap that you can come in trying 666 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: so hard to do something and then realize you were 667 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: all wrong. And you know, you can come in feeling 668 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: like you have so much to give and then ultimately 669 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: understand that you were still taking somehow. And I ultimately 670 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: left early. I left after thirteen months. And I pride 671 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: myself on commitment. That was a story that I told 672 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: myself about myself, that you know, I say, I'm going 673 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: to do something, and I'm going to do it. And 674 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: I quit, and I bailed, and I came back feeling, 675 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,439 Speaker 1: you know, useless and and terrible and like I would 676 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: never be able to do anything good in my life 677 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: and feeling like I don't understand anything. And I came 678 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: back sort of horrified at American capitalism, you know, because 679 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: I was in the middle of nowhere, you know, no internet, 680 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: you know, no running water. And I came back. I 681 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: would go into grocery stores and I would burst into 682 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: tears that I craved and I feared the fact that 683 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: I could just walk in anywhere and just all of 684 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: these products have been flown around the world for my 685 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,919 Speaker 1: comfort and my whims and you know, and I felt 686 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: just so confused and like I knew absolutely nothing. And 687 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: I think as time went on, I realized that that 688 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: was actually an okay way to feel, you know. That 689 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: was actually maybe the grounds from which I would begin 690 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: to try to understand things is with the sort of 691 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: simultaneous reaction of dread of the world as it is, 692 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: but a desire to be in it. You know, people 693 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: often say they're humbled when they actually mean like I'm 694 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: I'm very honored to announce, you know, And that was 695 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: an experience of being humbled as being like truly broken down. 696 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: For a while, I thought I need to get myself 697 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: out of this state, to get back to normal, and 698 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: I think slowly I started to understand I need to 699 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: remember part of this state and retain some aspect of 700 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: this humility, you know, like function a little better, but 701 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: retain some of the sense that I don't know anything 702 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: and that that's okay, and that I can operate from 703 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: this standpoint of humility, true humility from here going out. Wow, 704 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: it's quite a thing to bring that with you and 705 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: then to synthesize that into your everyday life. But amazing 706 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: that you had that experience. I feel really lucky. And 707 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: it was again, you know, you go there expecting to give. 708 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: I left feeling like I took and you know that 709 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: too was a lesson. You know that you would have 710 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: to be a study and constantly re evaluated commitment if 711 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: I did want to give more than I took in 712 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: this world. I think it's a really really good way 713 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: of looking at any kind of service is really seeing 714 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: how much you're actually taking. Yeah, God, it's just so 715 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: lovely to talk to you. I could really talk to 716 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: you forever and ever. It is such an honor to 717 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 1: meet you, and thank you for thank you for having me, 718 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: and thank you for telling me that about mothering. I'm 719 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: going to remember it for all ways. I think, Yeah, 720 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: love with loose hands. That's what someone said. Anyway, Good 721 00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: luck with your gorgeous baby bird. Thank you, Jeez. Book 722 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: Trick Mirror is out now, and there is an extraordinarily 723 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: good piece of investigative journalism. She co wrote with ronand 724 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: Farrow in the July three edition of The New Yorker, 725 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: entitled Britney Spears Conservatorship Nightmare. Mini Questions is hosted and 726 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: written by me Mini Driver, supervising producer Aaron Kaufman, Producer 727 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 1: Morgan Lavoy, research assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry Baby 728 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: by Mini Driver. Additional music by Aaron Kaufman Executive produced 729 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: by me Mini Driver Special thanks to Jim Nikolay, Will Pearson, 730 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Annicke Oppenheim at w 731 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: kPr de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg, And 732 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: for constantly solicited tech support Henry Driver