1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. This is 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Robert and this is gonna be a vault episode for you. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: This is one that we originally published nine two. I 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: believe this was for Hobbit Day. This is a discussion 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: of the Orcs of Middle Earth getting into where they 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: come from in the dark corners of the human imagination. 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy. But of those unhappy ones 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: who are ensnared by melk Or, little is known of 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: a certainty, for who of the living has descended into 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: the pits of a toumbno or has explored the darkness 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: of the councils of melk Or. Yet this is held 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: true by the wise of Eressia, that all those of 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: the KINDI who came into the hands of melk Or 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: aerotomno was broken, were put there in prison, and by 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: slow arts of cruelty, were corrupted and enslaved. And thus 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: did Melcor breathe the hideous race of the Orcs in 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: envy and mockery of the elves of whom they were 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: afterwards the bitterest foes, For the Orcs had life and 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: multiplied after the manner of the children of Iluvatar, and 20 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: nought that had life of its own, nor the semblance 21 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: of life could ever milk or make since his rebellion 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: in the ain Alundli before the beginning. So say the wise, 23 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: and deep in their dark hearts, the Orcs loathed the 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: master whom they served, in fear the maker only of 25 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: their misery. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind production 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow 27 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: your mind. My name is Robert Land and I'm Joe McCormick. 28 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: And man, I had to read that opening part quite 29 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: a few times. That, of course, is from The Silmarillion 30 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: by R. R. Tolkien. Yeah, and of course we're talking 31 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: about Tolkien because today's publication date is September two, which 32 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: also happens to be the credited birth date of both 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, the Hobbits central to J. R. 34 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: Tolkien Saga of Middle Earth. Uh. Thus this has become 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: known as Hobbit Day, which falls during Tolkien Week, at 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: least as proposed by the American Tolkien Society in nine eight. 37 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: So this tradition is roughly a month older than I am. 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: That's funny. So it's a week long festival then, yeah, yeah, 39 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: apparently a week long celebration of Middle Earth and all 40 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: things Tolkien. I was not aware of it until just 41 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: like last month, and I realized that the publication day 42 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: lined up perfectly, and I'm like, oh, well, we've already 43 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: done an episode on the One Ring. We did another 44 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: one on Hobbits and how their their biology works and 45 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: how they, you know, relate to multiple meals per day 46 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: and to sunlight, and so I thought, we gotta come 47 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: with something else that we can talk about on hobby 48 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: Day itself. So you wanted to talk about orcs. I 49 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: guess you've had Tolken on the brain all year, right, 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: Are you still you're still reading it with the family? 51 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: No way, I haven't been reading it. We've been meaning 52 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: to come back around to Fellowship of the Rings, but 53 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: instead we just we just got into Star Wars this year, 54 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: so that's where we are. But I couldn't. I couldn't 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: let the stars seemed to align on this particular episode. 56 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: So I thought, well, we've got to we gotta do something, 57 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: and I started looking around. I thought, well, maybe it's orcs. 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: Orcs are such a central part of the work and 59 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: something that has been highly influential on fantasy in general, like, 60 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: generally speaking, fantasy games, fantasy books, fantasy movies, they're just 61 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: lousy with orcs. You know. I was trying to think 62 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: when I first started, when I first became aware of orcs, 63 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: and I think before I ever read any Tolken, I 64 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: played the Warcraft games, which which have orcs in them, 65 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: which are essentially the palace guard that Jabba's Palace from 66 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: Return of the Jedi. Yeah, they're green, and they've got tusks, 67 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: and they've got kind of like a bulldog faces. Yeah, 68 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: they have that. They look a lot like those Gamorian 69 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: guards from from Jedi. Um. They also, of course, of course, 70 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: um that whole gaming system I think has its roots 71 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: too and being inspired by the Warhammer games as well, 72 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: which yeah, which I'll touch based on that in a 73 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: little bit, because I think they're very important to the 74 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: history of how we interpret orcs. UM. I think I've 75 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: I have always pictured the Orcs of Middle Earth in 76 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: less detail, like, you know, more abstract, brutish creatures in 77 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: the you know, in the rough semblance of human beings. 78 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: And part of that might be that I at a 79 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: very early age I saw at least parts of the 80 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: original UH animated version where all the animation is pretty 81 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: much like that. It's kind of like abstract shapes and 82 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: less detail, and the Orcs and other evil things things 83 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: are often shown in kind of a silhouette. This is 84 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: the ralph back she won with the does have rhotoscoping 85 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: in it. Rotoscoping animation. I believe that's the technique they used. Yeah, 86 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: it was. It's it's interesting. It's a little bit different 87 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: from the Rank and bass Uh animation that you saw 88 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: on The Hobbit and then saw on the Return of 89 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: the King, which you know, basically finished what this film didn't. Oh, 90 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: this is the one where Sauman is Santa Claus. They 91 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: give him a red robe. It's been so long, I 92 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: don't even I don't even remember that honestly, but but 93 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: I I remember flashes of it. It had it had 94 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: some sort of an impact on me. Um. I'd say that, 95 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: I think in hearing about Middle Earth and all um, 96 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: it probably also has a lot to do with like 97 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: the two earliest stories that I remember my dad telling 98 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: me were he would tell me about Beowulf and Grendel. 99 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: So had this like really early idea of Grendel in 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: my head, And then I remember him telling me about 101 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: the Battle of Hastings, So I have I think I 102 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: ended up sort of cobbling together this this Middle Earth 103 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: orc as being a combination of Norsemen or Viking and 104 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: that figure of Grendel. M hmm. But that's just me personally, 105 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: just based on like where I came into learning about 106 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: Bahabbed and what I've been exposed to previously. Um and 107 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: as as we're going to discuss here, there's there's subsequently 108 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: been so many different visions of orcs and what worcs are, 109 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: and we're still in the process, uh of of defining 110 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: and redefining what an orc is. For some reason, I 111 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: remember thinking that the Orcs of the Peter Jackson movies 112 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: have a very dickensiean villain kind of flare, Like they've 113 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: got this, you know, sinister Cockney accent that you hear. Yeah, 114 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: the Peter Jackson orcs are are are very important in 115 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: our our modern perceptions of them, but even those are 116 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 1: are suitably very There are a lot of different visions 117 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: of what an orc is in those films. They range 118 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: from like big like dark brutes to more goblin e forms. 119 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: There's like one general that shows up and I think 120 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: Return of the King that has this very like elephant 121 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: man um tumorous appearance, and then by the Hobbit films 122 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: they seem to have refined it a little bit to 123 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: where you have either refined the work in general or 124 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: that or just they've decided to portray these sort of 125 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: misty mountain orcs as being almost kind of nos ferratu 126 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: in like they kind of look like big beefy nos 127 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: Feratus in a way in a way that I think 128 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: really works more the classic Max shrek nos ferat or 129 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: the klaus Kinski nos Ferra to the Max shredded nos Ferrati. 130 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: That's that's what they are. Like. This is very just 131 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: very beefy um juice to Max. Now we mentioned mentioned 132 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: U Warhammer just a second ago. I've long been a 133 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: fan of of Warhammer, and Warhammer forty thousand one is 134 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: like the Fantasy version. One is essentially like a sci 135 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: fi version of the same universe, and it is evolved 136 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: since then. And you have orcs in both of them, 137 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: and in both games orcs are depicted as green skinned, 138 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: almost bold dog like in their cranial structure, and even 139 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: more to the point, though these orcs are presented in 140 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: a manner that I would I would dare describe as fun. 141 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: Uh They If Orcs are often you know, serving to 142 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: to represent a kind of dark savagery of humanity, I'd 143 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: say that the the Orc Boys as they're sometimes called, 144 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: this with a z uh run counter to that, embodying 145 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: the spirit that kind of celebrates a kind of goofy 146 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: primal rebellion, especially in in Warreham or forty thousand, the 147 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: futuristic version, which is a very dark and nihilistic, you know, 148 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: grim dark kind of fictional setting. The Orcs are pretty 149 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: much the only faction that actually resonate with any lightness 150 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: and whimsy. Like you see are the depictions of them 151 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: or the way that the various collectors have painted them up, 152 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: and they often have bright colors and kind of a fun, 153 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: goofy quality to them. I ran across one I think 154 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: is like a current figure where it's like an Orc 155 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: captain and he has like a big pirate hat on 156 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: and a bunch of cool colorful iconography. They have this 157 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: kind of slap dash technology to them. Uh, they're they're 158 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: a little bit monstars in space jam. I haven't seen 159 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: space Sham, but it's when the nerdy aliens get really 160 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: big and good at sports and then then become the monstars. Okay, 161 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: well I'll take your word for it. Um. Yeah, I 162 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: guess I'm imagining from your telling of it, like sort 163 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 1: of lighthearted monstrosity, kind of cartoonish monstrosity. Yes, Okay, space 164 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: Jam never gets too bleak, you know they don't. Space 165 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: Jam doesn't go full grim dark a grim dark space 166 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: Jam reboot that would be that would be scot that'd 167 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: be so good. Now, this embracing of Orc nature. You'll 168 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: find this elsewhere as well. Uh. Indungeons and Dragons, of course, 169 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: one may play a half work or even full bloody 170 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: to work, which allows room for that sort of thing, 171 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: and will come back to Dungeons and Dragons in a bit. 172 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: But one title, and this is one that our former 173 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: co host Christian Uh turned me onto. Uh. There's a 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: comic artist by the name of James um stoke O 175 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: I believe that's S. T. O. K Oe, And he 176 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: has this comic series called Orc Stain, and it presents 177 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: a delightfully crude and whimsical vision of a world just 178 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: overrun with Orcs. The protagonist himself as an Orc warrior, 179 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: and it has this kind of I would say, you know, 180 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: the art that accompanies the British musical um Act Gorillas. 181 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: It has kind of that Guerrillas Tank Girl kind of 182 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: vibe to it. It has this very kind of punk 183 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: rock aesthetic, which I've I've I've seen I've seen that 184 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: with orcs elsewhere where. This is kind of convergence of 185 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: like punk art culture and the embracing of the orc. Yeah, 186 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: punk monsters, I think is actually a pretty good tradition. 187 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how it got started, but I think 188 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: of in the old uh the old teenage meeting Ninja turtles, 189 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: comics like the Bebop and rock Steady. H you're a 190 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: punk monsters exactly. Yeah, good point. So what does all 191 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: this mean? What are orcs and and why do they 192 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: resonate with us? So why do we continue to tell 193 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: stories about Orcs and involve works in our games and 194 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: our fiction, etcetera. Um? Can can we discuss science in 195 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: relation to orcs? And are there problematic aspects here as well? Uh? 196 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: So that's where we're gonna be talking about in this episode. 197 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: But the first step, I imagine is to discuss what 198 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: Tolkien says in Universe about the creation of the Orcs 199 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: coming back to our cold opening, and then also discuss 200 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: where he even got the name orc itself. All right, well, 201 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: let's enlist in the Orc army, all right, Okay, So 202 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: in Tolken's writings, the Orcs are the most common evil 203 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: foot soldier. They're like the ubiquitous enemy um. In the 204 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: Hobbit we deal more with goblins, which are often understood 205 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: to be either lesser Orcs or a particular species or 206 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: subspecies of mountain orc. And Tolkien apparently rolled out a 207 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: few different contradictory origin stories for the Orc in his work. 208 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: But according to the Token Encyclopedia, which is a book 209 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: I typically turn into for such matters, uh, they were 210 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: twisted forms of life that Milk Corp spawned in the 211 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: pits of Utum. No no, uh. They served as the 212 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: bulk of his armies, and then after his defeat they 213 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: served as the bulk of Saron's armies as well. Now, 214 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: was milk Or the same person as Saron in an 215 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: earlier incarnation? Or was milk Or the god that Saaran 216 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: served my understanding, and this is a good point for 217 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: us to point out that neither of us are Tolkien 218 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: scholars or or professed to be Tolkien experts pro it's 219 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: you're you keep wanting to do these token episodes, and 220 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: then we get the mail from people who are like, actually, 221 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: I know and I I and I love it. I invited. 222 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: I I definitely want to hear from from people more 223 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: knowledgeable in the in Tolkien scholarship than I am, or 224 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: just in general, you know, or or scholarship if you will. Uh. Now, 225 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: my understanding is that melk Or was the original fallen 226 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: god that rebelled against everything. Then he was defeated Saaron, 227 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: being like a fallen hephaestus type forge god had served 228 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: milk Or. But with milk Or destroyed or you know, 229 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: taken out of the picture permanently, now it's time for 230 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: Saron to shine. Basically, Sawon was milk Or's VP. Okay, cool, 231 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: Now now we we kicked off the episode here with 232 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: that cold reading about the creation of the Orcs in 233 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: the in the Pits of Autumn. No, you know, the 234 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: idea that they would have been created, you know, this 235 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: sort of blasphemous process that takes place in a fallen 236 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: god's dungeons, like it was a sort of a mockery 237 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: of life. Yeah, the idea that they captured els and 238 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: twisted them through torture into this new terrible form of life, 239 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: and that the Orcs therefore were products of pain and hate. 240 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: They lived only for pain and hate, and outwardly they 241 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: were quote and this is from the token Encyclopedia, bent, 242 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: bow legged, and squat, so they were ape like in 243 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: many respects, but cunning and cruel. Their skin looked as 244 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: if burned. In their eyes were quote crimson gashes like 245 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: narrow slits and black iron grates behind which hot coals burn. Now, 246 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: there are different varieties of orc, we're told in Middle Earth, 247 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: from the goblins of the Misty Mountains to standard orcs, 248 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: and then later you get these taller, more sun resistant 249 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: Urakai orcs that were made by Sauron much later. And 250 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: it sounds as if the idea is that Sawin ends 251 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: up combining orc stock with human stock to create a 252 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: more human statured, day tolerant trooper. Yeah, and I think 253 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: that ties into the idea that a lot of creatures 254 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: in Middle Earth or in Tolken's world, like, if you're 255 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: a bad creature, you're often sort of confined to a 256 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: nighttime existence. You can't go out in the sun trolls 257 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: are this way, and the Hobbit trolls are turned to 258 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: stone when Gandalf tricks come into staying up till till 259 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: the sun comes out. And I guess the idea is 260 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: also that maybe the Orcs or the goblins just don't 261 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: really like sunlight. Yeah. Now, the Token Encyclopedia and other 262 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: sources as well, it has you'll find lengthy passages discussing 263 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: the role of Orcs to the history of Middle Earth. 264 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: Uh there's there's no shortage of of of information uh there. 265 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: But basically, the idea is that throughout their history the 266 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: numbers swell and shrink at times when dark lords rise 267 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: up and then fall away. Um when they when dark 268 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: lords come back to power, the Orcs are there to 269 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: fill the ranks of the evil armies. But even when 270 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: they're defeated, they never completely go away. They kind of 271 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: shrink to the hidden corners of Middle Earth. Um. And 272 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: even with the defeat of Sauron and Middle Earth's transformation 273 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: into a modern world, there's this idea that the Orcs 274 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: are out there somewhere. So that's the the in universe 275 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: explanation or as cannon and origin stories can be cobbled together. 276 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: But of course we know that J. R. Tolkien did 277 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: not create Middle Earth out of nothing. He forged it 278 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: out of existing mythological, folkloric and historic motifs. And I 279 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: would say, actually, maybe more than anything, out of linguistic motifs. 280 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: You know that Tolken loved language, and you often get 281 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: the sense that his story came out of having a 282 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: word for something, you know, like you'd find you'd find 283 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: a word for something an old Norse. That's just a 284 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: great word. And and it almost feels as if the 285 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: character springs from the sound of the name. Sorry that 286 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: that makes sense, I know, no, absolutely, I mean you 287 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: you really you can't discuss Tolkien creating anything without without 288 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: bringing in language, like clearly, like that was his his 289 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: his primary um scholarly interest, and everything else kind of 290 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: like springs out of that. And then thus that's where 291 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: a lot of these characters and species come from as well. Yeah, 292 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: so it seems that Tolkien actually derived the term orc 293 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: from a usage in Beowulf. Beowulf is, of course the 294 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: great epic of Anglo Saxon. It's an epic poem from 295 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: the early Middle Ages. We don't know exactly when it 296 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: was composed, it was written in Old to English, which 297 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: is the ancestor to modern English, but also which is 298 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: you know, it's so unlike modern English that you can't 299 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: just read it, you know, it's basically like another language. 300 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: You need you need a glossary or translation basically to 301 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: understand it. Uh And so the term specifically that appears 302 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: in Beowulf is or caneus or caneus. It is a 303 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: creature that's mentioned during the introduction of the monster Grendel, 304 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: you know, the real first big bad that that Beowulf 305 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: has to fight. Beowulf arrives at at roth Car's mead hall, 306 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: and the mead hall is being terrorized by attacks from 307 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: this monster Grendel. And so I'm going to read from 308 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: the J. Leslie Hall translation of Beowulf in the part 309 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: that mentions orcs uh so or the word or canaos 310 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: at least Hall translates for that bitter murder, the killing 311 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: of Abele all ruling father, the kindred of Cain crushed 312 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: with his vengeance in the feud he rejoiced, not but 313 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: far A drove him from kindred and kind that crime 314 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: to atone for meter of justice. Thence Ill favored creatures 315 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: elves and giants monsters of ocean came into being, and 316 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: the giants that long time grappled with God, he gave 317 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: them requital. Now in the Hall translation here there are 318 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: a couple of different words. They get translated as giants. 319 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: One is the old English gigantists, and the other is 320 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: a yoton s, which I think is where we also 321 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: get the word yoton like the Norse mythology giant a 322 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: couple of different kinds of monsters. So in the line 323 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: that mentions orkans, it's a yotanus and ilfa giants and 324 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: elves and or can a s which I think here 325 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: is translated as monsters of ocean, but other translations have 326 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: have chosen different terms for it, sometimes calling it a 327 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: a demon or a goblin or something like that. Uh. 328 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: There's also an interesting translation note in the j. Leslie 329 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: Hall version of Beowulf, which notes that when Grendel himself 330 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: is introduced, the word used to describe him could be 331 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: translated as demon and often is or could be translated 332 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: as stranger. Uh. Literary and linguistic conflation of the unfamiliar 333 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: person with the monster of hell, and j. Leslie Hall 334 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: actually chooses stranger in in this translation, making for an 335 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: interesting set of lines. A foe in the hall building, 336 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: this horrible stranger was Grindel, entitled the march Stepper, famous 337 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: who dwelt in the moor, fins, the marsh and the 338 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: fastness that. So, if you think of Grendel as a stranger, 339 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: this gets into some interesting territory about what monstrosity means, 340 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: and that a lot of times are our mythical monsters 341 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: are sort of ways of mentally metabolizing concepts of people 342 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: who are unfamiliar or who you worry might be threatening 343 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: to you somehow. Yeah. Absolutely, But then also just from 344 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: a surely like in that on the other hand, like 345 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: just from an imaginative perspective, like I hear that, and 346 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: I just love the idea of Grendel as this, as 347 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: as the stranger, as this, you know, this being that 348 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: is um that is almost from another world, you know, 349 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: because in many many respects he is well and much 350 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: like the Orc that we were just talking about, Grendel 351 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: here has given an unholy origin story. Right. They say 352 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: that he has descended from Kine, who in the biblical 353 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: story murdered his brother Abel Caine was you know, the 354 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: third human to exist and Abel was the fourth and Caine, 355 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: I guess, got jealous of Able having having good offerings 356 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: to God that God was very pleased with, and so 357 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: Kane murdered him. And then God comes to Caine saying, hey, 358 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: where's your brother? And Kane says, am I my brother's keeper. 359 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: So God curses Kane and sends him off wandering in 360 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: the wilderness to the land of not and Kane's offspring 361 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: apparently become the monster Grendel. So it's like there there's 362 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: a sort of there's a generational curse that has passed 363 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: down for that original crime. Now, in a nineteenth century 364 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: glossary of Anglo Saxon terms, the scholar Thomas Wright notes 365 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: that orc means possibly hell, devil, or specter or goblin uh, 366 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: and he notes that it is phonetically similar to Orcus, 367 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: which was a Roman god of the underworld I think 368 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: somewhat regularly conflated with Satan during times of Christian syncretism. Yeah. Yeah, 369 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: Orcus of course has come up on the podcast before. 370 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: And this also brings to mind that that line from 371 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: William Blake that of course is um is adapted and 372 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: switched around a little bit most more probably more famously 373 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: to most listeners in Blade Runner. But that line fiery, 374 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: the angels rose as they rose deep thunder rolled around 375 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: their shores, indignant, burning with the fires of Orc. Oh yeah, 376 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: that's come up before. I know you like that one, 377 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: and that's great. I mean, Blake is always great, but 378 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: Orc there is different. Work is not so much a monster. 379 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: There is kind of like I don't recall exactly some 380 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of character. Yeah. Yeah, you you're dealing with the 381 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: Blake um um cinematic universe there as opposed to any 382 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: of these others. UM. I should add add one thing. 383 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: It's it's interesting that we don't have to really discuss 384 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: what a goblin is in any of this UM. There's 385 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: something about the goblin in particular that I think you'll 386 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: find just about everywhere. Like we've discussed um various Chinese 387 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: folklore's and mythologies before that involve something that is translated 388 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: as a goblin. And it does seem to suggest that 389 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: there is just sort of an intrinsic goblin nous to 390 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: the human imagination, Like there is a space preserved for 391 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: the goblin that we we don't even really need to 392 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: even expand on too much. Well, yeah, I mean, I 393 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: think it's just there's a general fear of something that 394 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: is evil that is roughly shaped like a human and 395 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: has human capabilities in a way, but cannot be reasoned 396 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: with and has no and has no like mercy or morality, 397 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: and is just sort of like meanness and cruelty and 398 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: human form or right human form. Yeah, or even kind 399 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: of uh, I guess sometimes with the Goblin, I get 400 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: a sense of like the diminutive nature of the goblin'sgested 401 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: like a hidden supernatural element to it. And even though 402 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: the the the idea of Tolkien's orcs, they kind of 403 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: evolve out of an idea of a goblin, they become 404 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: something different, They become something more like a human and 405 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: therefore kind of divorced from like the supernatural world of 406 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: pure fairies, in the same way that Token's elves are 407 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: something different than like the the ideas of the fair 408 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: folk or even the Tuatha de Dan and uh that 409 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: that you find you know, Irish mythology. Well, yeah, Another 410 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: thing that's funny is that by the time you get 411 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: to Tolkien, suddenly elves are thought of as these sort 412 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: of like superhumans. They're like human links, but they're they're 413 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: like so beautiful and so graceful and so rational and good. Um. 414 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: But but here in in Beowulf, the elves just seemed 415 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: to be another type of monster. They're listed alongside the 416 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: Yotanas and the monsters of the ocean. I mean they're 417 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: in the same line. It's a Yotanas and Ilva and 418 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: uh and Orcanus altogether. Now. Um, speaking of the idea 419 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: of of orc is being related to sea monsters, I 420 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: of course looked up Orc in Carol Roses, Giants, Monsters 421 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: and Dragons, one of my favorite books too, to look 422 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: up various creatures and uh and and actually she has 423 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: another book related to fairies. In the Fairy Book, she 424 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: has a listing for for Orc, just saying it's one 425 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: of Tolkien's creations, very short, not much to it. Uh. 426 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: In the Monsters book, she mentions Orc or Orco, a 427 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: monster described by Plenty of the Elder in the Natural History. 428 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: Came out in sevente or thereabouts, and it's described as 429 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: a very large oceanic creature, said to be larger than 430 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: a whale and capable of eating whales. It was known 431 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: as Orco later on and referenced in Orlando Furioso in 432 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but the poet Lodovico Ariosto so Orlando Furioso. 433 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: I must, I must admit this. We were talking about 434 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,959 Speaker 1: it before we started. I just figured out that this, 435 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: this epic poem is not about a guy named Orlando Furio, 436 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: so it means something like Orlando's frenzy or something. Uh. So, 437 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: So Orlando is the hero of the story, and he 438 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: slays I think he slays a lot of monsters in it. Um, 439 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: but I looked it up in Orlando Furio. So it's 440 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: in Canto seventeen that the the Orco monster is mentioned. 441 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: And so I want to read from the William Stewart 442 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: Rose translation. So uh, we get the narration. While with 443 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: much solace seated in around we from the chase, expect 444 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: our Lord's return, approaching us along the shore, astound the orc, 445 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: that fearful monster we discern God grant fair sir, he 446 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: never may confound your eyesight with his semblance foul and stern. 447 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: Better it is of him by fame to hear than 448 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: to behold him. By approaching near to calculate the grizzly 449 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: monster's height, so measureless is he exceeds all skill of 450 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: fungus hue in place of orbs of sight their sockets 451 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: two small bones like berries fill towards us. As I say, 452 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: he speeds out right along the shore and seems a 453 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: moving hill tusks jutting out like savage swine. He shows 454 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: abreast with drivel foul and pointed nose. Okay, so what 455 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: do we know about this monster? Uh? He's too tall 456 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: to calculate his height. No one has the skill to 457 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: calculate how high he is, and that that makes it 458 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: sound like he must be like leaving the atmosphere. Um. 459 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: He also has he's of fungus hue, and I guess 460 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: the'rengus is of a lot of different hues, and he 461 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: in place of eyeballs, he has bones that are like berries. Now, 462 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: up until that point, I'm definitely picturing what I think 463 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: this is. But then the tusks kind of throw it 464 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: off because the tust sound like more something you would 465 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: see for see in you know, an actual tusk sea creature, 466 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: but also in the fabulous uh chimerical uh sea monster 467 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: that you see in various maps. Oh yeah, exactly like 468 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: the kind of like a wild boar's face on a 469 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: whale's body. Exactly. I think something like that might be 470 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: kind of imagined here, except he's advancing along the shore, 471 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: so he seems to be able to leave the water. Um. 472 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, Well, it brings to mind um. And 473 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: then because it does seem to be there is a 474 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: connection here. So when you read this, I could not 475 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: help but picture the orca the killer whale, you know, 476 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: because there's something about like you know, the fungus hue 477 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: uh in place of orbs of side imagining those big 478 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: eye spots that are of course not their eyes, even 479 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: though it's it's almost impossible to look at a killer 480 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: whale and not think of that as their eyes. Their 481 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: eyes are actually much you know, smaller, um. And are 482 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: there those big eye spots I think actually make killer 483 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: whales cuter than they otherwise they look less like the 484 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: like the vicious wolves of the sea that they are. Um. 485 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: But but yeah, there's this connection between Orcus and um 486 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: or kinnis Orca that's the scientific name for killer whales, 487 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: or kinnus meaning belonging to Orcus, or simply the kingdom 488 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: of the dead. Uh. The Roman idea of orc orco 489 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: sea monsters was or became associated with the killer whale. Yeah, 490 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: I guess that's right, And and I want to be clear. 491 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: I think a minute ago we we describe the killer 492 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: whale as vicious, which we don't mean in a in 493 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: a negative moral sense, but we do mean in a 494 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: descriptive sense about like their behavior as they prey on sharks, 495 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: which is just awesome. Yeah. There as when concerning um 496 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: orcas and their their natural prey, I think viciousness is 497 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: a well deserved adjective. Watch any Nature documentary about their 498 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: their hunting of baby whales and you will agree. Um. 499 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: But then again, hey, it's that. That's the world. They're 500 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: just doing their part in it. The blessings of milk 501 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: or all right. On that note, we're gonna take a break, 502 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,719 Speaker 1: but when we come back we'll talk more about works. 503 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: Thank alright, we're back now. There are certainly a number 504 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: of ways to crunch the idea of an orc that 505 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: the of Tolkien's orc a humanoid other that is also 506 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: not human insignificant ways. I have to come back to 507 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: something that um, that author Terence Hawkins Um wrote about 508 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: in his novel American Neolithic, of which there's a revised 509 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: edition out. I believe it has to do with the 510 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: Neanderthal surviving into into modern a's. But there's this wonderful 511 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: line where the Neanderthal character is speaking to the reader 512 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: and says, quote you for whom we have always been 513 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: the other, our existence buried deep in your racial memories, 514 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: since the time when glaciers girdled the world and the 515 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: contest between man and animal was yet to be decided. 516 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: We haunt your legends as we haunt your dreams, misshapen 517 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: versions of yourself, bad copies formally Cobalds or Grimlin's now 518 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: more locks and orcs, um so so in this line, 519 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: basically it's the idea is that, uh, there might be 520 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: some connection between the idea of orcs or more locks 521 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: or other type beings and maybe the notion that humans 522 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: did live alongside Neanderthals for a period of time and 523 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: played at least some role in their destruction. Well, depending 524 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: on how you define destruction, because of course we do 525 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: see the disappearance of the Neanderthal as a distinct branch 526 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: of the Homo genus, but also it does appear that 527 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens and Neanderthals also intermingled. Yeah, we went to 528 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: see we went a good deal into this in our 529 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: almost Cannibals episode because we're basically there was one point 530 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: we were discussing the idea of cannibalism by neander Dolls 531 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: by early humans, and you see examples of cannibalism in 532 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: both groups, but there's less evidence to suggest that, say, 533 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: humans aid all the neander dolls or the Neanderals aid humans. Um. 534 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: I mean it, basically, there are a number of open 535 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: questions about what exactly happened between Neanderthals and humans. To 536 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: what extent anything happened. UM. A lot of sources seem 537 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: to indicate that there was there was probably at least 538 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: a competition for resources, if not something more you know, nefarious, uh, 539 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: with of course in the neander Dolls eventually um, fading away, 540 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: leaving only us. But what well, I take that back, 541 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: also some trace of Neanderthals within our own genetics. Now 542 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: it's interesting to think of a true humanoid other and 543 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: how human society would process its downfall. Uh. There's another 544 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: huge issue to consider them, and that is that that 545 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: is our tendency to dehumanize due to xenophobic, nationalistic, uh 546 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: and or racist attitudes. And this is an issue that 547 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: certainly comes up in the consideration of orcs. Yeah, I 548 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: think one of the most difficult things when you dig 549 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: into the history of of ideas about monsters. As much 550 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: as we love them today and they're fun in the 551 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: in the forms we have them, they may often have 552 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: their origins in ideas that if we were fully understand them, 553 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: we would find quite repugnant. I mean, I think a 554 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,959 Speaker 1: lot of the origins of monster legends are probably in 555 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: some process of dehumanizing people who are human. Yeah, it's 556 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: and it it is. It's truly heartbreaking because you want 557 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: monsters to be this pure escapism. But then yeah, when 558 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: you start pulling the various threads, you often find yourself 559 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: confronting something like this and nothing else. You confront the 560 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, the basic idea that that these that monsters 561 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: always emerge from, if not one particular time, they emerge 562 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: out of different times and and Tolkien's works especially, I 563 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: mean they're emerging out of twentieth century Europe, you know, 564 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: out of a period during which there were two devastating 565 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: world wars. Uh. Certainly there's plenty of European racism and 566 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: xenophobia going around at the time, the wartime demonization of 567 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: the enemy like this, these are all elements in the soup, 568 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: no matter no matter how much you want to focus 569 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: on these just being purely fictional beings in a you know, 570 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: in another world or in a world that is inspired 571 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: purely out of like the scholarly consideration of myths and 572 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: and fairy tales. Right. I mean, I think at the 573 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: very least, what you can definitely say about the orc, 574 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: no matter what else we know about them, is that 575 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: they are a dehumanized form of the enemy to be 576 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: represented in war. Um and in a way, you know, 577 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: if if Tolkien was trying to consciously sort of recreate 578 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: something like a mythology. We see something like this in 579 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: lots of mythologies, you know it. It is of course 580 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: common for humans to to to dehumanize their enemies and 581 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: to think of them as something you know less than 582 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: the people like us, right And and I mean we 583 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: we see this everywhere. I mean, this is one of 584 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: the reasons that arguably the zombie fiction has been so 585 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: so successful is that it presents a completely um, you know, 586 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: ethically acceptable enemy that can just be eradicated without any 587 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: second consideration. Um. And I think that you know, you 588 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: remember when we did um the episode about daydreaming, and 589 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: one of the studies we looked at discovered that one 590 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: of the most common things that people daydream about is 591 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: they just sort of fantasize about violent conflict and that 592 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: people they think like, oh, if there was a fight, 593 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: what would I do? Uh? You know, there there's this 594 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: kind of thing, And so obviously people's brains are drawn 595 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: to this kind of scenario to fantasize about, you know, 596 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: for understandable reasons, like you like you want to be 597 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,720 Speaker 1: like that. That's where a lot of potential risk lies 598 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: and you want to imagine, like, well, what could I 599 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: do to get out of this? How could I win? 600 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: That kind of thing? But then also that you know, 601 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: I think about In Lord of the Rings, there's part 602 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: where sam Wise gamge uh. He recognized as a fallen 603 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: soldier from the other side from somebody who's fighting for Saron, 604 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: but is a human fighting for Saron one of the 605 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: for one of the men from Harad, and sam Wise 606 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: looks at him and he feels bad. He says, wait 607 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: a minute, you know, was this man really evil or 608 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: what kind of lies or threats brought him here so 609 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 1: far from home? And wouldn't he rather be living at peace. 610 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: That's interesting. It's a kind of strange moment where suddenly, 611 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: out of this otherwise kind of manichean uh good versus 612 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: evil war fantasy war with a with a non human enemy, 613 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: suddenly there's this this breakthrough where one of the characters 614 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: on the supposed good side thinks, wait a minute, aren't 615 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: the people on the other side humans too, Aren't that 616 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 1: you know? Don't they have lives? Don't they have moral 617 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,959 Speaker 1: complexities behind their story. This is one of the things 618 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: that you see time and time again in in this discussion. 619 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: And I do want to I want to drive home 620 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: that this is a This has been a topic of 621 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,280 Speaker 1: of continual consideration by token scholars and literary cultural scholars alike, 622 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: both in reference to the original works and the you know, 623 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: the original writings there are token and these various film 624 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: are incarnations. Because on one hand, yeah, like there's this 625 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: idea if you read uh uh you know, like in 626 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: our our cold opening, this idea of the orcs is 627 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: just this purely inhuman thing just made out of savagery. 628 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: Uh you know that, Like that sounds more in keeping 629 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: with the zombie myth, right, just like no ethical problems 630 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: at all. But but along the lines of this example 631 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: of a human fighting for sau and there are plenty 632 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: of examples in the Lord of the Rings were Token 633 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: does engage in a certain humanization of the Orcs, like 634 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: they're given some sense of individuality. I believe they're you know, 635 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: scenes where they've been taken captives by their works and 636 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: their overhearing or conversations, Uh yeah, Maryan Pippen when they're 637 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: kidnapped by the Orcs, they sort of interact with the 638 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: Orcs in a way that suggests to me, at least 639 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: that the Orcs are sentient, you know, they're they're not like, 640 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: they're not like robots, you know, they're they're not just 641 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: evil killing machines, like they've got motivations of their own. 642 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: So that makes everything a lot more complicated. Everything we're 643 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: about to talk about a lot more complicated. Um, now, 644 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: we can't possibly cover the entire discourse on this topic. 645 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: It looks like there's some very good sources out there 646 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,280 Speaker 1: that you can find. I I ran across a book 647 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: that I've is cited in a source that I'm gonna 648 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: mention by Demitra Fimi title Token Race and Cultural History, 649 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: that is supposedly quite good, but Some of the key 650 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: issues that are often brought up about orcs are that 651 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: orcs are clearly described as having dark skin, Orcs are 652 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: described as being quote unquote slantide. And there's this sense that, yeah, 653 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: orcs are human shaped and are more or less human like, 654 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: but then they are also less than human or described 655 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: as less than human. And it is often suggested that like, 656 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, nothing but brutal violence it's against the orcs, 657 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: is is permissible, and that you know that that is 658 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: that they should just be eradicated by the higher um 659 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: uh species of Middle Earth. And I mean some of 660 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: this I think might be as getting back to the 661 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: token um duality here. I think part of it is 662 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: just by if you start telling stories about something, you're 663 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: gonna end up humanizing it. So I can see where 664 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: you could start with your with your you know, you're 665 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: just completely um you know, irredeemable enemy. But then you 666 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: you can't help but but but but humanize it a 667 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: bit in the same way that um say, like in 668 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: in the Clone Wars, you know you have the Droid army. 669 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: The droids are like a great example of an enemy 670 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: army that is set up to be easily and dispatched 671 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: without any ethical quandaries. And you still see this kind 672 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,919 Speaker 1: of creep in clone wars uh storytelling in which you'll 673 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: you'll end up sympathizing with the droids. You know you 674 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: can't help, but but apply uh, you know, sort of 675 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: human characteristics to the droids at times. Now, one of 676 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: the works I was looking at for this is a 677 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: paper by Robert T. Talley Jr. Uh let us now 678 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 1: praise famous Orcs, simple humanity and tokens in human creatures. 679 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,879 Speaker 1: This was published in myth Floor back in and Um. 680 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: He he looks at at both sides of the of 681 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: the discussion here. Basically. Now, Tally ultimately does not himself 682 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: accused Token of racism, but he does outline much of 683 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 1: the evidence that can be cited in such a charge, admitting, quote, 684 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: it is true that no one can read about these 685 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: quote Swart and quote slant eyed orc so many times 686 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: without becoming offended. And he also points out that Tolkien 687 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: himself notoriously wrote in one of his letters, quote the 688 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the human 689 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: form seen in elves and men. They are or were squat, broad, 690 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 1: flat nosed, sallow skin, with wide mouths and slant eyes, 691 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: in fact degraded in repulsive versions of the two Europeans 692 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: least lovely Mongol types. Uh. That is not a good sentiment. Yeah, 693 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: And according to Anderson Riric, the third in why is 694 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: the Only Good orc adad Orc published in MFS Modern 695 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: Fiction Studies, Uh, Tolken's friend C. S. Lewis even made 696 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: passing mention of racism in light of the book's first publication, 697 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: but again, but apparently did not pursue the idea all 698 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: that much. So, you know, it seems to have been 699 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 1: something that was at least in the conversation concerning orcs 700 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: uh for quite some time, and maybe even on on 701 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,959 Speaker 1: Tolken's mind at least at times. I mean, I can't 702 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: help but I had forgotten that passage about the human 703 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: servants of of Mordor. But that's interesting as well. I've 704 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: also seen it argued that this sort of view of 705 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,959 Speaker 1: the racial enemy tied up with the orc was also 706 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 1: readily exhibited it in World War One and World War 707 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: two propaganda against both Germans and the Japanese, where you 708 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: see like a monstrous racial version of the enemy depicted 709 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: in propaganda posters and then on top of that, we're 710 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: talking about an era of eugenics, ideas of racial purity. Um. 711 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: All that going on in the background, and this is 712 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: ultimately again the world that these works emerge from. UM. 713 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: Now fimi UM concludes, according to to Tally, that that 714 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: Tolkien's quote objectionable racial uh characterizations are consistent with the 715 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: discourse of his time, and in any event, consistent with 716 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: the quote hierarchical world in which his mythic history unfolds. 717 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: Now that being said, I don't think that makes it 718 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: any easier for modern readers or viewers. You know, once 719 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: you start focusing on these these elements, once you start 720 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 1: you know, noticing them in your your reading of the 721 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 1: tax or the viewing of the movies that spawned from them, 722 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, you see modern adaptations dealing with this in 723 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: in almost diametrically opposed ways, right, um. Because one way 724 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: you could deal with it is to try to embrace 725 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: even harder the distinctions that would make you know, whatever 726 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: kind of like monster enemy and it is it is 727 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: clearly not human. You know, you want to go full 728 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: zombie or full robot to suggest that like, no, no, no, 729 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: the orcs can't be They're not a metaphor for like 730 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: in any people, they're just that they're not human at all. 731 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: They're like, you know, bio robots or something. And then 732 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: the other direction would be to actually try to humanize 733 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: them more and make them seem more complicated. But yeah, 734 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: it is true. I mean, like it much fantasy and 735 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: epic writing is this way. But as they're they currently 736 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: exist in the story, the orcs are in this uncomfortable 737 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,919 Speaker 1: middle position where they are sort of human, but they're 738 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,439 Speaker 1: they're they're not treated with the fairness that we would 739 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: have hope should be afforded to all sentient creatures. Yeah, 740 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: and it's I guess that's that's the ambiguity of it 741 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: that makes it difficult, and um, you know, and it's 742 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: also I would say with Olkin, it doesn't seem to 743 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: be nearly as is clear kind of situation as we 744 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: have to say with HP Lovecraft, you know who, we 745 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: have such you know, damning examples of racist sentiment in 746 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: his in his private letters, and then and then when 747 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: you look at his works of fiction in light of 748 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: those letters, I mean it's just it's, um, you know, 749 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: you can't ignore these elements in his work. Um, you know, 750 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: told Tolkien's writings certainly have been accused of containing wrong 751 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: or outmoded attitudes to race, with the works very much 752 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: of the center of all this. But but then you, 753 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you have defenders pointing out well, okay, Token 754 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: himself was anti racists, both in peace time and during 755 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: the Two World Wars. I don't know, you're still left 756 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: with with what we still have is just continual discussion 757 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: of like, how are we supposed to process Um Tolkien's 758 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: work as a as a modern consumer and a modern thinker. Well, 759 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess one of the ways that we're 760 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: left to deal with it is just to uh, is 761 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: to don't let yourself get Lord of the Rings brain, 762 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: or at least certainly don't let yourself get orc brain, 763 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: thinking outside of the fantasy of the text. You know, 764 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: the real world does not have orcs in it, Like 765 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: you know, all the people, even people you might be 766 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 1: in conflict against our human and that you know, and 767 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: and to maybe lean more into the same wise gamge 768 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: way of thinking about things, to to always try to 769 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: remember that even somebody who you might be at war 770 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: with is still a human and they've got their own motivations, 771 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,439 Speaker 1: they are morally complex in the same way that you are. Yeah, yeah, 772 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: and I mean I think it's one of Tolkien's letters. 773 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: He even said something similar where He's like, well, in 774 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: the real world you have works on both sides of 775 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: a conflict. Um, because I guess in a sense of 776 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: the works, the orcs is us right. Uh. I want 777 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: to note too that I thought Dungeons and Dragons UM, 778 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: the game, the company behind it, they recently made mention 779 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: of something this some of this concerning works in a 780 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,399 Speaker 1: diversity statement. UM. They put this out. This was this year. 781 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: They wrote, quote, throughout the fifty year history of D 782 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: and D, some of the people's in the game works 783 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: and drought being too prim and examples have been characterized 784 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent 785 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 1: of how real world ethnic groups have been and continue 786 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: to be denigrated. That's just not right, and it's not 787 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: something we believe in. Despite our conscious efforts to the contrary, 788 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: we have allowed some of those old descriptions to reappear 789 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: in the game. We recognize that to live our values, 790 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: we have to do an even better job in handling 791 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: these issues. If we make mistakes, our priorities to make 792 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: things right, and then they go on to stress a 793 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: forward facing commitment to betraying orcs and drought as quote 794 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: just as morally and culturally complex as other people's, which 795 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: which I think is a way to go, especially considering 796 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: and Orcs and drought have such a prominent role in 797 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: Duns and Dragons of storytelling, the drought being the dark 798 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: elves of the undertarg Yeah, the more I think about it, 799 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,959 Speaker 1: the more I think that the clear defining line, really, 800 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,839 Speaker 1: I guess would have to be sentience, right, that there 801 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: there was an idea here, maybe in older versions of 802 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: D and D, apparently somewhat ambiguously represented in in The 803 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings, that there are some types of 804 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,800 Speaker 1: people or types of creatures that are sentient, they're thinking 805 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:11,359 Speaker 1: beings like us, but they are also wholly evil, And 806 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 1: in a way that's just sort of that's sort of 807 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,760 Speaker 1: self contradictory, right, Like, you know, a sentient being couldn't 808 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: be as an entire people wholly evil because their sentience 809 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: would sort of necessarily imply that there is, you know, 810 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: that there is moral complexity to them. Yeah, I mean, 811 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: it works when you're talking about and basically comes down 812 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,239 Speaker 1: to the alignment system in Dungeons and Dragons, which on 813 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: an individual level doesn't really work in the real world. 814 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,359 Speaker 1: Like I mean the idea that I mean I am 815 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: I am I neutral evil? Or am I am I 816 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 1: neutral good? Like I think in reality we have multiple 817 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: alignments in ourselves at all times, and it's about it's 818 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,319 Speaker 1: about nurturing the alignments that are the person we want 819 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: to be, you know. And then certainly when you get 820 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: into a species wide alignment, like what is humanity's alignment? Uh, 821 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on what we're doing at any 822 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 1: given time. It depends on what you're focusing on. I mean, 823 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: they're there aspects of humanities, um, you know, role in 824 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: the world that are that would seem you know, at 825 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,880 Speaker 1: least lawful evil even or neutral evil, and there are 826 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,919 Speaker 1: other things that are that are not so. So. Yeah, 827 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:17,959 Speaker 1: it's it's one of these things that when it works 828 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: well within a game context, as long as you're not 829 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: thinking too hard about it, I guess, I mean, ultimately, 830 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: I don't think it's ever gonna go away. The convention 831 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: of having uh, various types of fantasy storytelling in which 832 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: there is some kind of conflict and the enemy of 833 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: the Heroes is an army of monsters. But I guess 834 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,440 Speaker 1: that mindset has its its place within fiction as just 835 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: the same way a horror mindset does or anything like that. 836 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: You know, don't pull it out into the real world 837 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: and try to use it on humans. Yeah, alright, on 838 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,719 Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take a break, but we'll 839 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: be right back. Than alright, we're back. So let's let's 840 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: move back to the in universe concept of the Orc 841 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: and consider how we might apply science to the situation. So, 842 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: first of all, I'd like to refer back to the 843 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,800 Speaker 1: writings of our Scott Baker, who mentioned on the show before, 844 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,839 Speaker 1: and heck he's been on the show a couple of times, 845 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: asn't me u, But he wrote this Second Apocalypse so OCCO, 846 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 1: which takes a lot of inspiration from Tolkien but applies 847 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: a different, uh philosophical and at times science fictional limbs 848 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,240 Speaker 1: to everything. And in the place of Orcs, he presents 849 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: these creatures that are called the Shrink, which are described 850 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,600 Speaker 1: as one of the the quote unquote weapon races that 851 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,240 Speaker 1: were engineered by the Big batties in this series, the 852 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:44,200 Speaker 1: the alien in Karai. So these are depraved, like thoroughly 853 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 1: inhuman creatures from another world that they in cry and 854 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,479 Speaker 1: they've taken members of the elf like non men uh 855 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 1: in this world, and they've used the technique or the 856 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: old science to twist them into savage creatures of the 857 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: bassist and most violent instinct, often to scribed as retaining 858 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,359 Speaker 1: the beautiful faces of the non men, only twisted with 859 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: like raw violent emotion and with kind of emaciated bodies. 860 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: And so they're they're engineered to combat the non men 861 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: warriors while also consisting on next to nothing like they 862 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,840 Speaker 1: were told that they just they live off of grubs 863 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: and insects that they find uh on as they scavenge 864 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: other lands that are otherwise fruitless. They could otherwise not 865 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 1: support an army at all, And they're all part of 866 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,319 Speaker 1: the scheme to you know, essentially destroy the world and 867 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: eradicate conscious beings from it. And so I think it's 868 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,440 Speaker 1: an interesting take on the idea of an orc, or 869 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,879 Speaker 1: at least an orc as an engineered warrior being more 870 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 1: or less an organic robot made for savagery and war 871 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,480 Speaker 1: that is itself incapable of self reflection. Uh. And if 872 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: you're indeed the you know, the Inkari or a dark 873 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: lord of Mendle Earth. It makes sense, I guess to 874 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 1: create such servants. Uh. And indeed, this whole concept it 875 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,959 Speaker 1: probably gets closer to the idea of like a zombie army, 876 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: or a droid army, or a subservient reanimated skeleton army, 877 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, something that is just purely the tool of 878 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,799 Speaker 1: the great adversary. Well, yeah, and tying into something I 879 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,240 Speaker 1: was talking about earlier, it seems to me significant probably 880 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,279 Speaker 1: the most significant thing that they are imagined as as 881 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,360 Speaker 1: basically being not sentient or not able to reflect on 882 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,880 Speaker 1: their own behavior, which I mean at that point, it 883 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,840 Speaker 1: does seem like that being probably does lack whatever it 884 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 1: is that that we think of as most significant to 885 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,839 Speaker 1: be human, right, like if you know you're you're not 886 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,319 Speaker 1: capable of reflecting on your own behavior. Yeah. And and 887 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: the with Baker's work, Yeah, there's this idea first of all, 888 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: that it is not conscious. He's you know, he's going 889 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: to tell you of a creature's conscious or not. It's 890 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,520 Speaker 1: kind of his whole thing. But then also the idea 891 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 1: that they are definitely engineered. They're a thing that is created, 892 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: They're a a new creation based on uh, you know, 893 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 1: some designs or raw materials from this other species, you 894 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 1: know Peter Watts in the novel Eco Praxia, I recall 895 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,840 Speaker 1: imagine something like this, But it is a type of 896 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,760 Speaker 1: human soldier who has had their nervous system modified, essentially 897 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: so that they have the ability to at will turn 898 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: off their consciousness during combat, essentially to become a more 899 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: efficient killer. So the brain still works the same, except 900 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 1: it's just not conscious while it's fighting. And apparently this 901 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: makes you better at being a soldier. Interesting. Um, so, 902 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,719 Speaker 1: so I think these are these are interesting ways to 903 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: think of a particular like weapons species in a fantasy 904 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,880 Speaker 1: or sci fi context. But but I was also interested 905 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: to see what else could be glean science wise from 906 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,600 Speaker 1: the Orcs of Middle Earth. So I turned to the 907 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,399 Speaker 1: book The Science of Middle Earth by Henry Gee, who 908 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,799 Speaker 1: is himself a long time editor at the science journal 909 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,239 Speaker 1: Nature as well as a paleontologist and evolutionary biologist. And 910 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,359 Speaker 1: so he covers a great deal up from Middle Earth 911 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: in his book, but beginning with the sixth chapter he 912 00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,320 Speaker 1: begins to discuss it works a bit, and the sixth 913 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: chapter is tie inventing the orcs. Um he spends on 914 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:04,759 Speaker 1: a fair amount of time discussing some of what we've 915 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,960 Speaker 1: already discussed, like where do we get the word orc? 916 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,600 Speaker 1: What does it mean? It's ties into mythology. Uh. But 917 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,760 Speaker 1: he also points out, Okay, let's let's talk about how 918 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: how they're made and how they reproduce. So he starts 919 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: by pointing out that there's a fair amount of incongruity 920 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,840 Speaker 1: concerning the origins of Eric Orcs and Tolkien's Middle Earth. Um, 921 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 1: you can look at various descriptions and cinematic depictions, uh 922 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 1: that on one hand make them look like they're bread, 923 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 1: and another it looks like they're created via torture. Um. 924 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 1: And if it's torture, are we're talking about something that 925 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,319 Speaker 1: is more? Is this the way we're describing something that's 926 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: being done to the body that can't be understood, like 927 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,880 Speaker 1: something like the technique, something like a sci fi genetic 928 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,360 Speaker 1: engineering or is it something psychological? Right? Uh? I seem 929 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,600 Speaker 1: to recalling the Peter Jackson movie that at least some 930 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 1: of them, maybe this was only the uru Quai, or 931 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:54,840 Speaker 1: or maybe it was all of the Orcs, but somehow 932 00:52:55,400 --> 00:53:00,720 Speaker 1: the servants of Saramon were being like grown of the earth, 933 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 1: like they came up out of the ground. Yeah, that's 934 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,359 Speaker 1: and that's something that the g U discusses as well. Yeah, 935 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,920 Speaker 1: that this idea that that there's something that's just like 936 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: pulled out of the earth, like this sort of primal creation. 937 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 1: They're just made of mud and stone. Um or maybe 938 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 1: their plants or fungus. Yeah, well yeah, maybe there's some 939 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,839 Speaker 1: sort of fungal element as well. Um, So he didn't 940 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 1: get into the fun Now now I'm thinking about the 941 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 1: fungal orc idea. That's a whole different theory. But but 942 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,800 Speaker 1: that the author here, he does discuss one interesting evolutionary 943 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 1: aspect of orcs in Tolken, and that is that we 944 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 1: have in an oorc army a collection of varying orc subspecies, 945 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,920 Speaker 1: which he says would ultimately fit well with the idea 946 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,200 Speaker 1: that orcs have, in periods of decline withdrawn to various 947 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: corners of the world. You know, this, this bunch withdrawals 948 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 1: to the misty mountains, this one withdrawals to these waste 949 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,640 Speaker 1: lands over here, et cetera. So he writes the following quote. 950 00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,319 Speaker 1: The enormous variety of orcs, which is it turns out, 951 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,360 Speaker 1: is crucial to the story, can be seen as a 952 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: consequence of the smallness and isolation of populations evolving in 953 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,759 Speaker 1: their own particular ways to suit local conditions, their isolation 954 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:13,839 Speaker 1: enhanced by mutual antipathy and incomprehension. Evolutionary theory tells us 955 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,319 Speaker 1: that evolution happens faster and has more idiosyncratic results when 956 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,440 Speaker 1: populations are small and isolated. So Tolkien's portrait of the 957 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,640 Speaker 1: Orcs as a collection of very diverse kindreds is biologically 958 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 1: very accurate, except that is, for one thing, sex. You know, 959 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,319 Speaker 1: one thing you could not accuse the Lord of the 960 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: Rings of is having too much sex in it. Yeah. Yeah, 961 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,800 Speaker 1: apparently there have been there agievements and mentions one paper 962 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,919 Speaker 1: that is like saying there's no sex in Middle Earth? 963 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 1: Like what does that mean? Like, if you take that literally, 964 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,840 Speaker 1: does it mean like there's no They're like sex sexual 965 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 1: reproduction is not a thing in Middle Earth? Um, I 966 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 1: think that would probably be going a bit far. But 967 00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,319 Speaker 1: in trying to piece together exactly where Orcs come from 968 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,520 Speaker 1: and how they reproduce it, it does has become a 969 00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,240 Speaker 1: little sticky. Yeah, I mean there there is remarkably little 970 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,279 Speaker 1: little sex in the Lord of the Rings. I mean 971 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,279 Speaker 1: people are described as descending from parents basically, so you're 972 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,640 Speaker 1: you imagine there is some sexual reproduction going on. I 973 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:21,040 Speaker 1: remember GIMII at some point gets very um, I don't know, 974 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: excited about the idea of how beautiful Galadriel is. But 975 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,560 Speaker 1: they're just not very sexually charged stories. Uh. And this 976 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,799 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting if if Tolkien is in a 977 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,280 Speaker 1: way trying to create a sort of epic mythology, because 978 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, most world mythologies are pretty crammed with sex. Yeah, 979 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,480 Speaker 1: I mean, people are always be be getting other folks, right, Um, 980 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 1: Whereas in the Tolkien books, like even with the Orcs, 981 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 1: there's occasionally like reference to one being the son of another, 982 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, of parentage, but there's not a lot of 983 00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,160 Speaker 1: detail there, and certainly there are no scenes depicting it. 984 00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:57,719 Speaker 1: So he basically points out, well, if we're talking about 985 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,719 Speaker 1: evolution and and the biology that work, like sex is 986 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,120 Speaker 1: obviously an important part of the equation. But of course 987 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,719 Speaker 1: we have little or no evidence of Orc sex in 988 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 1: the books. Um, which I don't know. That seems a 989 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:14,800 Speaker 1: little maybe nitpicky, uh to to say, but but because 990 00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,200 Speaker 1: they're I know, they are apparently five references to Orc 991 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,720 Speaker 1: reproduction aside from discussion of creation or breeding by others, 992 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,920 Speaker 1: which G thinks is is miniscule, But to me that 993 00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,440 Speaker 1: kind of sounds like a lot. I would if you 994 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,399 Speaker 1: had to, if you ask me to guess how many 995 00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,239 Speaker 1: references to orc reproduction there are in the book, I 996 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,040 Speaker 1: would have guessed like maybe one. I would have just zo. 997 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think they're I vaguely remember a passage 998 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,600 Speaker 1: where one character is talking about, well, the Orcs have 999 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,600 Speaker 1: been reproducing in the mountains. There are a lot of them. 1000 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,400 Speaker 1: Um Like that would have been the only one that 1001 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 1: it would have come to my mind. Not only is 1002 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,239 Speaker 1: there no mention of of of actual Orc sex, there's 1003 00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,960 Speaker 1: no mention of female orcs. And this is perhaps more 1004 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,080 Speaker 1: significant now. Naturally, this doesn't mean there were no female orcs, 1005 00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,280 Speaker 1: nor does it mean that there was no Orc sex, 1006 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,120 Speaker 1: you know, no more than the absence of sex from 1007 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:03,960 Speaker 1: the rest of the books mean that sex didn't exist 1008 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,600 Speaker 1: for other species of Middle Earth. But he he does 1009 00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,759 Speaker 1: point out that the idea, you know that we could 1010 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: compare this to the idea of a purely manufactured or species, 1011 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 1: much in the same way that the you know, the 1012 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,760 Speaker 1: clones and the droids and star wars are are created, 1013 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,240 Speaker 1: and it would this would actually be in keeping with 1014 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,439 Speaker 1: the industrialized warfare of the world wars, you know, full 1015 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:32,200 Speaker 1: of mechanized artillery and this overall degregation of the individual soldier, 1016 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,880 Speaker 1: as well as the overall quote emasculating effects of industrialization 1017 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,360 Speaker 1: in the world. So in other words, perhaps there's no 1018 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 1: female or or male work at all. There's only just 1019 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,920 Speaker 1: neutral flesh machines that serve this fallen god. You know, 1020 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,080 Speaker 1: it's interesting that Tolken was was very uh, he would 1021 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,680 Speaker 1: very strenuously reject the idea that Lord of the Rings 1022 00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 1: was an allegory for any particular war. Like I think 1023 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,640 Speaker 1: the thing most often raised is like people saying like, oh, 1024 00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: I see, you know, it's supposed to be about World 1025 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,000 Speaker 1: War two and Hitler is Sauron and you know, the 1026 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,640 Speaker 1: Orcs or the Nazis and all that, which I mean, 1027 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 1: obviously coming out of the World War two era, it 1028 00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 1: would probably be hard not to try to make that 1029 00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 1: comparison in in like an epic struggle. But Tolkien always 1030 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,760 Speaker 1: like he thoroughly rejected the idea that Lord of the 1031 00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,440 Speaker 1: Rings was an allegory for any particular historical events on Earth. 1032 00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,320 Speaker 1: You know, he he in fact thought allegories were quite stupid, 1033 00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:32,000 Speaker 1: and he did not like them. But nevertheless, this is 1034 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,840 Speaker 1: one where it's like really hard to miss that what 1035 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: would seem like allegorical significance the way that the mortor 1036 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:45,560 Speaker 1: war machine in has these tones that so resemble the 1037 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:50,760 Speaker 1: production lines of mechanized warfare going into World War two. Yeah. Yeah, indeed, 1038 00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,040 Speaker 1: in fact, this was interesting. I've never heard this, but 1039 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,160 Speaker 1: he uh pointed out in the book as well that 1040 00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,360 Speaker 1: there's an earlier version of the Lost Tail, the Fall 1041 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 1: of Gone to Lend, which features a siege not by 1042 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:08,200 Speaker 1: Orcs and trolls, but by quote vast articulated fire breathing machines. 1043 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,800 Speaker 1: Tolkien apparently later abandoned this idea in favor of living 1044 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,600 Speaker 1: creatures you know that works, the trolls, etcetera. But at 1045 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,600 Speaker 1: least at one point there was this vision of the 1046 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:23,880 Speaker 1: the Armies of more Door being like mechanical industrial creations. Yeah, 1047 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,200 Speaker 1: and I think that's it's there in the book. Still, 1048 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,120 Speaker 1: even though the Orcs are biological in some way mythological biological, 1049 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,880 Speaker 1: the the Armies of more Door, I think, are very 1050 00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:37,320 Speaker 1: much seen as like a sort of an industrializing wave 1051 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,200 Speaker 1: of something that destroys the natural landscape and replaces it 1052 00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:46,120 Speaker 1: with industry and machinery and ash and smoke. Yeah, yeah, 1053 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean yeah it's and certainly you look at more 1054 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 1: door and what is more do or about this sort 1055 00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:55,120 Speaker 1: of geologic vision of like pure industrial dynym right, I 1056 00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,439 Speaker 1: mean nothing, nothing, No trees grow there, you know, it's 1057 00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,959 Speaker 1: just like a it's it's a vast asphalt parking lot 1058 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:07,360 Speaker 1: full of factories for weapons. Yeah, it's exports are war 1059 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:12,640 Speaker 1: weapons and volcanic ash. That seems to be it. Now. Now, 1060 01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,720 Speaker 1: all this being said that there are mentions to mention 1061 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,360 Speaker 1: of orcs like breeding in the wild, so they still 1062 01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,840 Speaker 1: seem to reproduce in the wild in some manner. But 1063 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,360 Speaker 1: who knows, it could be like a Jurassic Park situation 1064 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,080 Speaker 1: right where there's some sort of mutation that observed that 1065 01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:33,400 Speaker 1: that occurs or something. Um, you know, he suggests, yeah, 1066 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,680 Speaker 1: maybe do suggests, well, maybe orcs lay eggs. Maybe that's 1067 01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,320 Speaker 1: what it is. Uh. He ultimately says, you know, if 1068 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: if it's there are a number of different ideas you 1069 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,160 Speaker 1: could propose, since there's no real discussion of it in 1070 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,040 Speaker 1: the book, as long as it doesn't break anything else 1071 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,000 Speaker 1: in the book. I mean it's all kind of fair game, 1072 01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,520 Speaker 1: like he has. He has some fun with the idea 1073 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,320 Speaker 1: that perhaps it works are use social insects and there's 1074 01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:58,200 Speaker 1: like an unseen or queen that does all the egg production. Uh. 1075 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,120 Speaker 1: And indeed, he points out that the goblins of the 1076 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,760 Speaker 1: Misty Mountains and the uh and the the orcs of 1077 01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,560 Speaker 1: Maria behave much like an ant colony in some respects. 1078 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,080 Speaker 1: That would be interesting. But again, I think in the 1079 01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,919 Speaker 1: few glimpses we do get into orc psychology, the orcs 1080 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,520 Speaker 1: seem far too selfish and and individualistic to be used 1081 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,960 Speaker 1: social uh animals right, Like, I mean, the like the 1082 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:25,480 Speaker 1: individual worker ants own bodily existence matters quite little to 1083 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,720 Speaker 1: it compared to you know, protecting the queen and the 1084 01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 1: reproductive possibilities of the hive. Individual orcs really do seem 1085 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,160 Speaker 1: to sort of be in it for themselves when they can, 1086 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, when they think they can get away with something. Yeah, 1087 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:42,120 Speaker 1: that's absolutely now. Now. Another idea that he brings up 1088 01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:48,160 Speaker 1: is okay, perhaps works reproduced by parthenogenesis or cloning. Uh. 1089 01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,360 Speaker 1: You know, he writes that this could work well, especially 1090 01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,280 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about the shrinking habitats that works have 1091 01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,240 Speaker 1: during their times of decline. But this would also mean 1092 01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,720 Speaker 1: that all orcs would inherently need to be female, which 1093 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,280 Speaker 1: also might work with the fact that there's never any 1094 01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,640 Speaker 1: mention of male and female orcs. Orcs are kind of 1095 01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,439 Speaker 1: presented as sexless, even though they're you know, they're they're 1096 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,640 Speaker 1: described with with male terminology. I mean, maybe we're just 1097 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,160 Speaker 1: talking about on all female species. Maybe we're just getting 1098 01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:20,320 Speaker 1: the story told through the like paternalistic lens of how 1099 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,840 Speaker 1: how the men and the elves view things could be. 1100 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,000 Speaker 1: And speaking of elves, another thing that he brings up is, Okay, 1101 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,680 Speaker 1: if we go back to this other origin store, the 1102 01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:33,280 Speaker 1: idea that that that more goth or milk, or that 1103 01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:37,400 Speaker 1: they they basically like tortured the elves uh in order 1104 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,480 Speaker 1: to make orcs, well, he points out that, Okay, well 1105 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,280 Speaker 1: if you just because you if you were to torture 1106 01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of elves and break them and like and 1107 01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,040 Speaker 1: so forth and then have and breathe them, you're still 1108 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,800 Speaker 1: gonna you're not gonna produce orcs. You're gonna produce more elves, um, 1109 01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, and then certainly they could have you know, 1110 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,560 Speaker 1: the dark Lord could use this technique over time to 1111 01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, encourage orc istra rates that you know, and 1112 01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, adapt to a hellish dungeon environment. But this 1113 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:08,280 Speaker 1: would ultimately require periods of evolutionary time that are far 1114 01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,920 Speaker 1: beyond anything we're presented within the Middle Earth timeline. No. 1115 01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,600 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, this is a more mythological way of 1116 01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,440 Speaker 1: imagining how traits are established in a species. You know, 1117 01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:22,600 Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of a magical lamarchianism, yeah, and 1118 01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:26,000 Speaker 1: any rights that. Ultimately, Tolkien was of course more concerned well, 1119 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,120 Speaker 1: certainly with with linguistic aspects of everything, like what does 1120 01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,760 Speaker 1: it mean that Orcs have a language that or speak 1121 01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,240 Speaker 1: while they speak in a more primitive tongue, you know, 1122 01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,520 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But then also Tolkien was more 1123 01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,320 Speaker 1: concerned with theological ramifications like what happens to the soul 1124 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,640 Speaker 1: of the elf if it is made into an orc? 1125 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:44,880 Speaker 1: You know? Uh, so there's this whole line of thinking 1126 01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:46,560 Speaker 1: as well. So all of this was far more on 1127 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:52,160 Speaker 1: Tolkien's brain as opposed to you know, evolutionary biology. But 1128 01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,440 Speaker 1: what if everything in Middle Earth is actually a mushroom? 1129 01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:01,400 Speaker 1: Like absolutely everything, even the ants mushrooms? Uh, I'll have 1130 01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,600 Speaker 1: to carry that with me on the next reread. Oh, 1131 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,200 Speaker 1: I want to come back to I want to come 1132 01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 1: back to NTS this October because I've got a I've 1133 01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,080 Speaker 1: got almost kind of like an evil int thing i 1134 01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,960 Speaker 1: want to do. Oh that sounds promising to me. So 1135 01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,400 Speaker 1: let's see. At this point, we've talked about, you know, 1136 01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,640 Speaker 1: Orcs as a as a problem faced by the other 1137 01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:24,919 Speaker 1: species of Middle Earth. We talked about problematic aspects of 1138 01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,120 Speaker 1: of of the work as a fictional creation. We've talked 1139 01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:31,800 Speaker 1: about the problems with Orc reproduction or figuring out exactly 1140 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,800 Speaker 1: what Orc reproduction consists of. But I understand you have 1141 01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,320 Speaker 1: you have one more or problem for us here, Joe. Well, 1142 01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,120 Speaker 1: so this only relates to Hobbits and Orcs in a 1143 01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,280 Speaker 1: completely arbitrary way. But it's actually I think it's maybe 1144 01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,400 Speaker 1: the most delightful of all the things that we're going 1145 01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,400 Speaker 1: to talk about today. Alright, let's do it. So if 1146 01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,800 Speaker 1: you're a puzzle nerd, there's actually gonna be a puzzle 1147 01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,000 Speaker 1: that you can pause the episode to try to solve. 1148 01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:58,520 Speaker 1: And this is going to be the Hobbits and Orcs problem. Now, 1149 01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:00,640 Speaker 1: my main source here is a cha after in the 1150 01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:04,720 Speaker 1: Cambridge Handbook of Thinking and Reasoning, which is just the 1151 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,400 Speaker 1: jolliest of reads. But it's actually more interesting than you 1152 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,360 Speaker 1: might expect. That that sounds incredibly dry, It's only somewhat dry. 1153 01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:16,200 Speaker 1: But specifically, I'm looking at a chapter on problem solving 1154 01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:19,760 Speaker 1: by Laura r. Novic who is at Vanderbilt University and 1155 01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:23,600 Speaker 1: Miriam Bassock, who is at the University of Washington. Both 1156 01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:28,240 Speaker 1: are psychology professors who study cognition and problem solving. Now, 1157 01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:32,040 Speaker 1: the study of problem solving is actually a really fascinating 1158 01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:35,360 Speaker 1: field or combination of fields. It's highly relevant to our lives, 1159 01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,520 Speaker 1: and I would say, to be fair, it encompasses. It 1160 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,280 Speaker 1: encompasses actually at least two main questions that are very 1161 01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:46,080 Speaker 1: different from one another. One is a question primarily for 1162 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,600 Speaker 1: mathematics and computer science, and this is the study of 1163 01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,840 Speaker 1: problem solving algorithms, such as those for search or sorting, 1164 01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,479 Speaker 1: and the study of which methods are actually the most 1165 01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:01,560 Speaker 1: efficient at solving different kinds of problems. The other question 1166 01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:06,400 Speaker 1: is one for psychology and cognitive neuroscience, which is, regardless 1167 01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,320 Speaker 1: of what methods are actually the most efficient, what do 1168 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,720 Speaker 1: our brains tend to do? You know, when a human 1169 01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:14,880 Speaker 1: is faced with a problem, what kinds of algorithms and 1170 01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,840 Speaker 1: methods do we actually use in practice. So where do 1171 01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:21,480 Speaker 1: the orcs come in? Well, one puzzle that has been 1172 01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,480 Speaker 1: used to study human tendencies and problem solving is known 1173 01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,600 Speaker 1: as the Hobbits and Orcs problem, and it's a variation 1174 01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,440 Speaker 1: on the classic river crossing puzzle. Robert, have you ever 1175 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,520 Speaker 1: done one of these? Where you know you've got a 1176 01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:35,960 Speaker 1: you've got a wolf, and a sheep and a cabbage 1177 01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,160 Speaker 1: all together on one side of a river, and you've 1178 01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,120 Speaker 1: got to figure out how to get them across. Do 1179 01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,480 Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about? Oh? I don't. I 1180 01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,280 Speaker 1: don't have a strong memory of this. Now, Okay, well 1181 01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:48,760 Speaker 1: here's this version. Okay, we're gonna go to the Brandywine River, 1182 01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,040 Speaker 1: the one that that separates I believe, bree from Buckland. 1183 01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:55,280 Speaker 1: Now at the Brandywine River, on the north side of 1184 01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,520 Speaker 1: the river, you've got three hobbits and three orcs, and 1185 01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 1: your goal is to get all six creatures across the 1186 01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,400 Speaker 1: river to the other side. Now, there's a boat that 1187 01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,840 Speaker 1: you can use to ferry them across, but there are 1188 01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,160 Speaker 1: a couple of major limitations. First of all, the boat 1189 01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,360 Speaker 1: can only hold two creatures at a time, and there 1190 01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:17,560 Speaker 1: always has to be at least one creature at least 1191 01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,080 Speaker 1: one Hobbit or Orc in the boat in order to 1192 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,680 Speaker 1: row it. So you can't send the boat across the 1193 01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:27,040 Speaker 1: river empty. Second, you can never leave hobbits in a 1194 01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,200 Speaker 1: place where they are outnumbered by orcs, or of course, 1195 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,640 Speaker 1: the orcs will eat them. And now your goal in 1196 01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:34,920 Speaker 1: this problem is to figure out what sequence of steps 1197 01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:36,800 Speaker 1: you can use to get all the Hobbits and the 1198 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,800 Speaker 1: Orcs to the other side of the river without breaking 1199 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:42,680 Speaker 1: any of the rules. Now, it's not necessary, but if 1200 01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:44,640 Speaker 1: you do want to pause the episode here and try 1201 01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,080 Speaker 1: to solve the puzzle yourself, go for it. I'll give 1202 01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,120 Speaker 1: you a hint that it can be solved in what's 1203 01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:59,560 Speaker 1: usually considered fourteen steps or fourteen stages. Okay, so I'm 1204 01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:01,240 Speaker 1: not going to eat out all of the steps to 1205 01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,120 Speaker 1: the solution here, but you can look it up and 1206 01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:05,840 Speaker 1: find it online. If you're stumped, I'm sure just google it. 1207 01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,000 Speaker 1: It'll come up. Um. One reason this particular puzzle is 1208 01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:14,520 Speaker 1: useful for studying problem solving is in studying what's known 1209 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:18,599 Speaker 1: as the hill climbing heuristic. Now Here, Novik and Bassok 1210 01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:22,520 Speaker 1: described the hill climbing heuristic as a problem solving technique 1211 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,760 Speaker 1: in which quote at each step the solver applies the 1212 01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:30,400 Speaker 1: operator that yields a new state that appears to be 1213 01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:34,080 Speaker 1: the most similar to the goal state. In other words, 1214 01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:36,639 Speaker 1: you know what you're end goal looks like, and at 1215 01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,360 Speaker 1: each step you do whatever it is that appears to 1216 01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:42,120 Speaker 1: get you into a state that looks more similar to 1217 01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,880 Speaker 1: the goal state. So if your goal is to get 1218 01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:48,080 Speaker 1: to the highest altitude, at each step you just try 1219 01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:52,840 Speaker 1: going uphill, hence hill climbing. Now, studies in cognitive psychology 1220 01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:55,960 Speaker 1: show that we use the hill climbing heuristic a lot. 1221 01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:00,000 Speaker 1: Uh Novic and Bassak site the example of Chronicle McGregor 1222 01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:03,519 Speaker 1: an armorade in two thousand four, who found that people 1223 01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,320 Speaker 1: naturally use the hill climbing heuristic in a task that 1224 01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:10,240 Speaker 1: involved sorting coins into a particular order, what you probably 1225 01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:12,680 Speaker 1: do is just like keep moving the coins in a 1226 01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:15,360 Speaker 1: way that makes them look closer to the final order 1227 01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,360 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be in until you get there. In 1228 01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:21,559 Speaker 1: the context of the Hobbits and Orcs game, hill climbing 1229 01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,320 Speaker 1: would mean that at each stage you just try to 1230 01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:28,160 Speaker 1: find whatever legal move will get the most creatures to 1231 01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:30,559 Speaker 1: the goal side of the river and off of the 1232 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:33,840 Speaker 1: starting side of the river without breaking the rules, and 1233 01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,599 Speaker 1: studies have found that people do use the hill climbing 1234 01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,200 Speaker 1: heuristic to generate steps when solving the Hobbits and Orcs problem, 1235 01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:44,400 Speaker 1: and for the most part it works. But also two 1236 01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:48,200 Speaker 1: studies by Thomas and Greeno, both in nineteen seventy four 1237 01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:52,360 Speaker 1: found that people hit a major roadblock around step number 1238 01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,759 Speaker 1: seven or eight in the game because, as an Ovic 1239 01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,800 Speaker 1: and Bassac right quote, the correct move at this point 1240 01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:02,360 Speaker 1: in fact, the own a non backtracking move is for 1241 01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:05,639 Speaker 1: one Hobbit and one Orc to take the boat back 1242 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:09,400 Speaker 1: to the original side of the river. So essentially, while 1243 01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,320 Speaker 1: it must be done in order to complete the puzzle, 1244 01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:16,080 Speaker 1: it looks counterproductive because the only way you can finish 1245 01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,760 Speaker 1: the puzzle is to cause a temporary net migration of 1246 01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:22,800 Speaker 1: creatures to the wrong side of the river. It's a 1247 01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,760 Speaker 1: necessary step, but it actually ends up looking less similar 1248 01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,240 Speaker 1: to your goal state than the step before it did, 1249 01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,519 Speaker 1: and the studies by Thomas and Greeno both found that 1250 01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:35,439 Speaker 1: people really get hung up at this step. It was 1251 01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,640 Speaker 1: the step of the problem where both the probability of 1252 01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,720 Speaker 1: a of a player making an illegal move and the 1253 01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,320 Speaker 1: time taken to decide on the next move suddenly go 1254 01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:49,240 Speaker 1: way up compared to other steps, and Novid can Bass 1255 01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,679 Speaker 1: talk about how these studies highlight one of the inherent 1256 01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:57,200 Speaker 1: weaknesses of the hill climbing heuristic. Sometimes in all kinds 1257 01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:00,800 Speaker 1: of problem solving scenarios, you have to move backwards are 1258 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,160 Speaker 1: laterally in order to reach your end goal. Like actual 1259 01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:06,800 Speaker 1: mountain climbers know this in a quite literal sense, you 1260 01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,360 Speaker 1: can't always reach the highest peak just by going straight up. 1261 01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:12,240 Speaker 1: A lot of times you have to go back down 1262 01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:15,479 Speaker 1: to reach a path that can actually be ascended. Other 1263 01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:18,160 Speaker 1: times you reach what's known as false peaks, which are 1264 01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,479 Speaker 1: places that seem like the peak as you're ascending until 1265 01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,920 Speaker 1: you get there, and then you realize that you are 1266 01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,000 Speaker 1: only at the local highest altitude and there's actually a 1267 01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,040 Speaker 1: higher peak just over here. And this means that it 1268 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:34,120 Speaker 1: really pays to think about what problem solving methods you're 1269 01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:37,760 Speaker 1: using without realizing it, whether and whether those methods are 1270 01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,240 Speaker 1: the best suited to the kind of problem you're facing. 1271 01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:43,200 Speaker 1: Uh the hill climbing hereist, it can be very useful 1272 01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:46,720 Speaker 1: for problems in which the solution space could be represented 1273 01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:49,640 Speaker 1: as a kind of single peak, like one mountain and 1274 01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,559 Speaker 1: an otherwise flat plane with an unobstructed slope. If the 1275 01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,519 Speaker 1: solution spaces like that, then basically, yeah, you just keep 1276 01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,000 Speaker 1: trying to go uphill until you get to the highest point. 1277 01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,080 Speaker 1: But hill climbing can be ruinous for problems where the 1278 01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,160 Speaker 1: solution space could be represented as kind of like a 1279 01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:10,280 Speaker 1: a landscape with multiple different hills and peaks and valleys, 1280 01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,240 Speaker 1: because if you just keep trying to go uphill, what 1281 01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:15,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna do here is end up climbing to the 1282 01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:19,840 Speaker 1: top of whichever hill is closest to your starting position, 1283 01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:23,400 Speaker 1: and then you'll just be stuck there because even if 1284 01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:25,080 Speaker 1: you know there's a higher peak you have to get to, 1285 01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:27,920 Speaker 1: you have to go downhill to get to it. So 1286 01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:29,960 Speaker 1: I think what this means for our lives is if 1287 01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,599 Speaker 1: you're stuck on a task, it can be really useful 1288 01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:36,040 Speaker 1: to ask yourself, am I inappropriately trying to use the 1289 01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,960 Speaker 1: hill climbing heuristic? Do I actually need to temporarily move 1290 01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,320 Speaker 1: further away from my goal in order to actually get there? 1291 01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,160 Speaker 1: And in myself. One thing that immediately came to mind 1292 01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:50,559 Speaker 1: as an example of where I find myself doing this is, Uh, 1293 01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,680 Speaker 1: sometimes when I'm writing, I'm I'm working on a paragraph 1294 01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:57,640 Speaker 1: or a page or something that just does not feel right, Like, 1295 01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,400 Speaker 1: I know it is not going right, and I'm trying 1296 01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:04,519 Speaker 1: to fix it by tinkering around with word choice and 1297 01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,960 Speaker 1: junk like that, when in actuality, the best path to 1298 01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:10,120 Speaker 1: my goal be, of course, to just delete what I 1299 01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:13,360 Speaker 1: have and start over in a different way. Yeah. Sometimes, 1300 01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:16,840 Speaker 1: I h I think I encounter this when I'm when 1301 01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,080 Speaker 1: I'm when I'm painting, Like if I'm working on a miniature, 1302 01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,720 Speaker 1: and like you reach that point where I mean, I 1303 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:24,840 Speaker 1: guess with the miniature, it's it's sometimes harder. I mean, yeah, 1304 01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,160 Speaker 1: you can, you can just paint over everything and apply 1305 01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:30,880 Speaker 1: a new base pay code. You can use something to 1306 01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,720 Speaker 1: to strip the existing paint off of it. But like, like, 1307 01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,120 Speaker 1: sometimes you're kind of continuing to work with the same 1308 01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,920 Speaker 1: problems that you've created for yourself on a you know, 1309 01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:42,479 Speaker 1: as far as a particular detail and the figure goes Yeah, 1310 01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:44,800 Speaker 1: you're stuck on the local hill when what you really 1311 01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:46,600 Speaker 1: need to do is go all the way down and 1312 01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,639 Speaker 1: find a different hill. Yeah, probably like get a new 1313 01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:52,640 Speaker 1: figure and a new copy of the same figure and 1314 01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,720 Speaker 1: begin again. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Now, some ways around this 1315 01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:59,679 Speaker 1: in computer science can involve algorithms that insert various kinds 1316 01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:04,040 Speaker 1: of random leaps or random steps in sampling to make 1317 01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:07,280 Speaker 1: sure that you're actually moving toward the global solution rather 1318 01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,320 Speaker 1: than the local solution. And in a way, I think 1319 01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:12,840 Speaker 1: this is this is sort of the algorithmic way of 1320 01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:16,120 Speaker 1: characterizing what we would call outside the box thinking, you know, 1321 01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,400 Speaker 1: thinking that lands on strategies that may take you pretty 1322 01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:22,760 Speaker 1: far away from the local peak in order to possibly 1323 01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:25,759 Speaker 1: find out that there is a much higher peak somewhere else, 1324 01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:30,040 Speaker 1: and a certain amount of randomness or willingness to be 1325 01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,439 Speaker 1: apparently counterproductive at least for the moment, can go a 1326 01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:36,160 Speaker 1: long way. And this is clearly what's been found like 1327 01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:39,240 Speaker 1: in in these studies using the Hobbits and Orcs problem, 1328 01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:41,720 Speaker 1: because it's like people really get stuck at the part 1329 01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:43,639 Speaker 1: that the part that they have the hardest time figuring 1330 01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:45,439 Speaker 1: out is the part where you have to move multiple 1331 01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,599 Speaker 1: pieces away from your in state in order to actually 1332 01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:52,960 Speaker 1: get there. Coincidentally, I think the dangers represented by the 1333 01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,960 Speaker 1: hill climbing heuristic are actually played out in literal topography 1334 01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:59,120 Speaker 1: in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, for example, 1335 01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:01,800 Speaker 1: I recall in Ollership of the Ring there's a lot 1336 01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:06,080 Speaker 1: of frustration about the straightest paths to more door being blocked, 1337 01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,400 Speaker 1: such as when they try to they try to go 1338 01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:11,720 Speaker 1: across the Red Horn pass of Kara Dress and they're 1339 01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:14,519 Speaker 1: blocked by bad weather, forcing them to backtrack and go 1340 01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:17,080 Speaker 1: a different way, even though you know they probably should 1341 01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:19,640 Speaker 1: have backtracked earlier, but they're they're stuck trying to go 1342 01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:22,720 Speaker 1: this way because it's where they already are. And I 1343 01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:26,479 Speaker 1: can't recall another specific passage, but it seems like they're similar. 1344 01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,559 Speaker 1: Similar problems in the two Towers, you know, like uh 1345 01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,360 Speaker 1: Frodo and Sam having to go down to go up, 1346 01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,120 Speaker 1: or having to go back to go forward and so forth. 1347 01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,160 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm remembering that now. So anyway, keep 1348 01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:41,080 Speaker 1: the Hobbits and Orcs in mind. If you're stuck on 1349 01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,519 Speaker 1: a problem, consider are are you hill climbing? Are you 1350 01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,720 Speaker 1: refusing to send your Hobbit and Orc back across the 1351 01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:50,240 Speaker 1: river even though that's what you have to do? Yeah, 1352 01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:52,840 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I don't think i'd heard of this before, um, 1353 01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,600 Speaker 1: but now now, I guess I'll think of all problems 1354 01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:58,799 Speaker 1: in my life as being uh ones where it works 1355 01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:02,800 Speaker 1: might potentially eat me, or one where you're the Orc 1356 01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:05,080 Speaker 1: and you're gonna fill up on Hobbit and ruin your dinner. 1357 01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:10,519 Speaker 1: You don't want to do that, all right, Well, we're 1358 01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:13,960 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and call this, uh this episode here. Um. 1359 01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,280 Speaker 1: Obviously we didn't get to, you know, get into everything 1360 01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:21,680 Speaker 1: about orcs within Tolkien's creations or within creations that you 1361 01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:24,360 Speaker 1: know come in the wake of the Lord of the Rings. Uh. 1362 01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:26,160 Speaker 1: So we would love to hear from everyone out there 1363 01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:29,479 Speaker 1: if you have particular thoughts on on anything here related 1364 01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:33,120 Speaker 1: to Tolkien scholarship, to you know, how we use orcs 1365 01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:37,599 Speaker 1: and popular culture. You know what, what what, why we're 1366 01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:41,080 Speaker 1: fascinated by them, what we should be doing with them, etcetera. 1367 01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:44,320 Speaker 1: We you know, we're always open to hear from everybody. Uh. 1368 01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:47,599 Speaker 1: We're always happy to be corrected as well. In the meantime, 1369 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:49,479 Speaker 1: if you would like to listen to other episodes of 1370 01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:51,679 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind, you can find us wherever 1371 01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:54,479 Speaker 1: you get your podcast and wherever that happens to be. Uh. 1372 01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:56,840 Speaker 1: Just rate, review and subscribe. Those are great ways to 1373 01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:59,120 Speaker 1: help out the show. Huge thanks as always to our 1374 01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:02,400 Speaker 1: excellent audio Do Sir Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you'd like 1375 01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:04,280 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 1376 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:07,160 Speaker 1: episode or any other to suggest a topic for the future, 1377 01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:09,920 Speaker 1: just to say hello. You can email us at contact 1378 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:20,080 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 1379 01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:22,600 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind is production of I heart Radio. For 1380 01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:24,880 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio is the i heart 1381 01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:27,680 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 1382 01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:37,519 Speaker 1: favorite shows.