WEBVTT - Why Don’t We Talk More About Mental Health? With Mike Shinoda, Dr. Gail Saltz and Dr. Ahmad Hariri 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:06.720 I'm bartun Day Thurston and this is Spit and I 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.080 Heart Radio podcast with twenty three and me. This is 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.080 the podcast that explores how DNA is changing our lives 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.200 and the world around us. In today's episode, we're going 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.439 deep on mental health. We want to know why is 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:21.720 it so hard for us to talk about mental illness 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.200 as a society and how do we move beyond this 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.639 stigma and began addressing mental health treatment in the same 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.280 way we talk about any other medical condition. Three D 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.640 Thirty two million people around the world are living with depression. 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.960 That's just about the entire population of the United States. 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.080 And here in our country, eight percent of us some 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.520 forty million people suffer from anxiety disorders, the leading cause 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.360 of disability in terms of years lost to disease. One 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.520 and four of us will suffer some type of mental 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.800 illness in our lifetime, yet only two thirds will seek treatment. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.000 Why is that? With suicide rates climbing to the tenth 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.600 leading cause of death in the US and the second 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.399 leading cause of death among young adults, we need to 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:08.040 be having more conversations to help remove the stigma surrounding 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.560 mental health. Mental health is just health, though we may 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.240 not show it on the outside. Just about everyone is 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.760 fighting some sort of battle on the inside. Truth be told, 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:21.920 I've had my own challenges with mental health. I've even 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.679 helped to bury a close friend who from the outside 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:29.320 no one would ever have expected to take his own life. Today, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.520 we're discussing this very important issue with the trio of 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.440 folks who are working every day to combat the stigma 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.479 and discrimination associated with mental illness, and who are using 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.920 their platforms to drive a deeper understanding, some through science 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.240 and research, and some through stories, advocacy, and the healing 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.360 power of music. In Part one of this episode, we 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.280 have a deep and moving conversation with musician, songwriter and 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:58.240 mental health advocate Mike Shinodah alongside Dr Gail Salt, clinical 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.040 Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital, 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.760 Wild Cornell Medical College and the psychoanalyst with the New 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.160 York Psychoanalytic Institute. I've been learning about it as things 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.600 go along, but what I do know from my own 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.440 personal experience watching my friend is that it was always 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.760 a roller coaster, like you just wouldn't know he'd come in, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:19.280 and you wouldn't know if today was a good day 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.240 or our bad day. Genetics do play a role. And 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:24.480 the reason we know that is that studies that have 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.800 looked at, for example, identical twins or first degree relative 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.800 show there's a much higher incidence of anxiety disorders. And 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.040 actually it's interesting even the specific anxiety disorder like panic 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.240 disorder or phobias. After this conversation, we decided to go 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.960 deeper deeper into the brain, deeper into the research, and 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.840 deeper into the future in terms of advancements and treatment. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.720 So after Mike and Gale's conversation, stay tuned for part 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.800 two with Dr Ahmad Harreri, a professor of psychology and 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.080 neuroscience at Duke University, who tells us the role of 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.520 jeans play and who's channeling learnings from his lady research 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.040 to help provide more treatment to more people. When we 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.200 have those large numbers of individuals in these studies, I 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.320 think what we're going to find is that there is 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:15.000 variation all over the genome, across hundreds of genes, if 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.960 not thousands of genes that collectively work together in ways 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.000 that are going to be even more complex to shape 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:26.400 the kind of what we strive for an understanding an 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.520 individual's kind of genetic risk or familial risk for mental illness. 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.920 I've got to say this is a truly revelatory episode 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.240 and I am so excited for us to go on 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:41.760 this journey together. We begin in Charlotte, North Carolina, backstage 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.600 with Mike and Gail as his crew prepares for that 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:54.920 evening show. Mike, Gail, welcome. Thank you both for being here. 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.760 Um and I just want to acknowledge that we have 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.320 sounds going on in the background because we are back age. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:02.600 Mike is about to do a big show and we've 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.720 got crews dragging things. Phones are ringing. Rock music is 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.160 about to happen. Rap music is about to happen, Real 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.640 music about to happen. So thank you Mike for letting us. 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.040 Thank you, and thanks to your patients with the noise. So, 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:15.000 Dr Saws, I'd like to start with some of the 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.760 science and start with you, as the degree holder in 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:22.560 these matters. What are anxiety disorders within this class of 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.800 mental illness and what's happening in our brains when we 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:31.120 talk about this. So anxiety disorders are basically our brain 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.520 using the normal danger alarm system that we all have. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.760 So if you see a bear, I'm definitely alarmed. Your alarmed. 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.600 And what happens in your in your mind and your 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.839 brain is it registers that it says, I have to 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.359 turn on my sympathetic nervous system, I have to release 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.919 certain neurotransmitters, and those ner transmitters are going to enable 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:55.000 me to either flee or fight. Right the flight or 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.640 fight response and normal fighting a bear just normal response. 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.160 So I think fleas a good choice. But people who 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:07.040 have anxiety disorders have an overreactive amygdala and hippocampus, those 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.520 of the areas that process fear. And because it's over active, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.119 lots of things that are either just in their mind 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.520 and actually not even real, or things that are real 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.960 but wouldn't make other people anxious signal that same alarm 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.160 to them. And it's happening much of the day, every 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:28.440 day for an extended period of time. So they get 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.279 both the psychological thought of how can I flee or 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.560 fight or do something in this situation, the worry that 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:38.919 comes with that all the time, what if this happens, 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.640 what if that happens, and the physiological response. So some people, 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.279 for example, a panic which is a kind of anxiety disorder, 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.880 have the shortness of breath, the tingly feeling in their body, 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.320 the rapid heartbeat as though they have to hurry up 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.800 and flee or fight. And when you have that for 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.160 an extended period of time, it compromises your ability need 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.880 to function at work. You can't concentrate, right, You're kind 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.080 of miserable all the time, and it affects your ability 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.599 to have relationships. And when you've reached that point that 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.560 it's affection your functioning, you have an anxiety disorder. So 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:16.640 anxiety normal, sometimes even useful, helpful. Right, Hopefully we're all 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.760 a little anxious right now because that makes us perform better. 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.919 There's a sweet spot beyond which it compromises your belity 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.440 to function. Now you have a disorder. That was the 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:31.600 clearest explanation of anything I've ever heard. Thank you, I'm serious, dope. 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.239 We've talked in this series so much about genetics, and 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.760 I'm curious to what degree do our genes play a 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:44.160 role in our likelihood of experiencing anxiety disorders? Is there 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.640 an anxiety gene or or a depression gene. So the 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.880 answer is genetics do play a role. And the reason 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.960 we know that is that studies that have looked at 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.960 for example, identical twins or first degree relative show there's 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.400 a much higher incidence of anxiety disorders. And actually it's 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:04.800 interesting even the specific anxiety disorder like panic disorder or phobias, 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.000 like if I had a phobia to a dog, it 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.320 would be much more likely that my children would also 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:14.000 phobias specifically to a dog. So there depression runs in families, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.880 anxiety disorders running families, Bipolar disorder runs in families. But 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:20.800 there is not a gene. In other words, it's not 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.600 passed on in an autosomal dominant way like I have 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.200 the gene, now you have the gene. You get it. 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.320 It's we don't know it's it's some sort of complicated 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:34.880 combination probably of genes and environmental factors. So what's important 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.160 to understand is that when you are born with a 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.840 set of genes, those don't stay your set of genes. 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:44.720 Environmental issues turn your genes on and off as we age, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.120 and so what's happening to you could turn off a 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.360 gene like say you do some things to try to 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.800 treat yourself early on to essentially avoid developing one of 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:57.960 these issues, because you know that this is something that 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:02.480 you're predisposed to that could help you not have it. Possibly. Ever, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.560 on the other hand, let's say you're predisposed and you 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:09.000 have difficult things happen, traumatic events that might not even 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.320 be in your control that might queue you up to 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.920 be more likely to have it. So it's not at 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.360 all or nothing thing. It's complicated, but it is valuable 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:22.240 to know if these issues run in your family. You 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.559 are making me think of the two people you're talking 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.080 to in terms of the environments that we're in. We've 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.000 got a musician Mike myself, I've done a lot of 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.040 comedy over the years. Are we putting ourselves in an 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.319 environment that's going to activate those those genes more likely 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.360 than not? Or do the arts help you process and 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.720 work through some of those Well, what's fascinating actually about 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.040 the arts, um and this is this is actually related 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.200 to the most recent book that I just did called 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.880 The Power of Different The Link between Disorder and Genius. 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.920 It is the neuroscience behind the fact that people who 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.679 are highly creative like the two of you, and particularly 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.560 successful in it in the word not just creative internally, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:06.400 but productive with their creativity, that potential and the use 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.720 of that potential is hardwired to the very things that often, 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.439 unfortunately make one suffer from a mental health issue. So 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.080 we know it's not that you can't be let's say, 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.480 a person who has none of these issues and be creative, 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:23.360 but we know you're you're lucked out. You lucked out, Okay, 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:28.719 But we actually do know that people who are particularly creative, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.480 you know, on the higher end of that spectrum, are 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:36.000 far more likely to have some of these particular mental 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.160 health issues, and that their part and parcel treat you 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.920 still should treat them, because treating them doesn't take away 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.840 the potential, but you should be looking for your potential, 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:49.760 and so there is this intense connection and living out 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:54.679 your creativity actually is useful. It's often therapeutic. One may 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:58.000 express things that one is having as an internal struggle 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.560 and find it very therapeutic. So it's not dramatic. The 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.520 trauma or the difficulties tend to be earlier in life. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.680 Things that you know, your parents divorced, um, you had 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.920 a particular loss, you weren't taught, you were helicoptered so much, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.600 you didn't learn any coping skills, any resilience. Your parents 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.400 never let you fall down or fail in anyway. So 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:21.880 then when you're faced that you're older, you have a 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.120 more difficult time when bertle you start using substances. That's 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.280 also a risk factor for developing some of these things. 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.440 So there are many things along the way that could 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.680 make it more likely. But being in a field where 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.640 you can produce and be productive, generally speaking, no, unless 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.720 the field where everybody around you is using and abusing substances, 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.920 that can make it more difficult. So for me, just 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.280 to give a little background for listeners who may not 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.880 be as familiar, I grew up drawing and painting. I 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.760 grew up making music. I was doing classical piano for 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:53.920 ten years when I was I don't know, I probably 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:55.679 started when I was like three or four, but I 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:57.360 always thought I was going to be a painter. That 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.320 was my really what my focus was. And then music 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.680 was a hobby and I went to school for visual 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.320 arts at Art Center College Design in Pasadena. I was 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.520 looking to get into illustration or like I wanted to paint, 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.200 to do album covers. I wanted to do movie posters, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.280 maybe even get into um animation or or video game 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:19.440 art um and then the music took off chester my 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.480 like we were like the two singers of the band. 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.240 We were the dual focus of the band. I started 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.240 the band, and once we found him, it was like 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.480 he was like the missing piece. And we didn't know 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:33.400 each other very well in the beginning, but as we 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.680 got to know one another, it was like this inseparable thing, 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.440 and he was very I came from a very like 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.280 secure kind of family system, a very you know, my 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.559 parents are still married. Uh. They took great care of us, 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:48.920 and I feel like I had a good upbringing and 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.360 Chester kind of had a very dysfunctional home system that 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:54.640 he grew up in. And one of the things that 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:58.080 made are not only our our friendship really strong, but 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.080 also are you know it played into the music was 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.440 the fact that it was peanut butter and jelly, Like 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.640 we were so different and we I had a way of, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.680 as he would describe it, like saying that like writing 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.160 the things that were on his mind. I would come 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.520 to him with songs and lyric ideas and things, and 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.440 he would help me understand where I was getting it, 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.240 where I was like hitting the bull's eye, and where 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.000 he felt like something was not quite right. You know 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.200 what's so cool about that is actually, in the most 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.960 creative people, it is a combination of what I would 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.200 call like a messy brain and an organized brain. But 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.360 like this yin and yang of you have to have 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.240 both in order to produce something. So like, if your 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.280 brain is messy, it has a space for innovation and 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.920 the production of like whatever he was saying telling you about, 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.600 but then it has to have some organization to take 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.640 that and bring it to fruition, right, and so peanut butter. 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:58.040 And there's also another lane that we would look at things, 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.760 which was, you know, your political brain and your creative brain. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.800 He was much more on the creative side. He had 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.920 trouble organizing things. I was even with both, and that 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.920 was actually unusual. Even when I was in art school, 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.240 I'd have most of that. I mean, you know, if 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.280 you've ever been to an art school that only does 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.120 you know design school for example, like cal Arts or 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.000 Otis or Risdi or Art Center, but you find that 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.000 the school population is introverted. People are very creative, but 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.920 not very organized. And I was, you know, it was 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.040 one of those rare situations where I'm kind of a 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.920 little more outgoing and organized, so that you know, in 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.160 terms of our relationship, that's kind of like how it 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:45.400 worked in a sense Chester died by suicide about almost 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.840 a year and a half ago. Some people ask me, 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.440 you know, the obvious things like well, what happened? Did 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.679 you know where their signs? All of these things right? 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.720 And the answer is, really, of course there were. Of course, 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.760 he was the same guy. In essence, he was always 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.319 the same guy. It Without those things, I don't think 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.600 we would have made the music that we made. It 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:05.880 was the type of music that I've always been drawn to, 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.000 the type of lyrics that I've always been drawn to, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.120 but I didn't live it the way he lived it. 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.319 And when we put all those things together, that's kind 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.480 of how the DNA of the band was formed, and 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.000 that's the reason the music sound of the way it 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.640 does now. Truth be told some of the lyrics that 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.680 they point to, and they said, oh, he was calling 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:22.760 out for help, Like I wrote a hundred percent of 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.800 some of those songs so lyrically, so I was writing 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.600 them to be sung by him because I knew they 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:34.400 were true for him. But the assumption was like, we 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.520 don't know, you know, The assumpting that it it was all 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.640 coming from him and stuff made things very confusing for 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.320 other people. I've also been thrust into this club that 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.520 I never wanted to be a part of, and in 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.320 doing so, these conversations like the one we're having today 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.280 have been happening. And so for me understanding this, you know, 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:55.000 I don't have any academic background in this stuff. I've 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.080 been learning about it as things go along. But what 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.640 I do know from my own personal experience it's watching 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.800 my friend, is that it was always a roller coaster, 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:05.520 Like you just wouldn't know. He'd come in and you 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.240 wouldn't know if today was a good day or a 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.080 bad day. And it could be bad could mean very 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.880 depressed and everything was down and enterings negative, or he 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.960 could be just very angry, or he could actually be 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.160 just like kind of unhinged and like he could be manic. 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.440 Basically it could be like, Okay, he's seemingly in a 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.240 good mood, but like, I don't know where this could go, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.320 Like he's there's a chicken and an egg scenario with 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.680 him and drug use in which he had talked about 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.120 a time. All that said, you know the things you 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.040 were just talking about in terms of triggers of things, um, 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.680 how they manifest, how they come out over time, and 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.600 like what people can do to fight them. That's not 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.720 only something that I've been intimately familiar with, watching and 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.280 trying to help my friend for years and years and years, 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:53.880 but now in you know, in this year, we've seen 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.280 a lot of other artists pass away from both suicide 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.960 and drug use. A lot of drug use, a lot 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.360 of artists, a lot of managers, a lot of touring entities. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.280 People in the industry are really starting to ask themselves 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.040 and one another, is there more we can do? And 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.560 if so, how It's a good question. First of all, 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.720 once you layer drugs or substances of any sort on 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:22.480 top of another psychiatric issue, the rate of suicide goes 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.240 way up. The ability to treat the underlying issue goes 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.760 way down. Um, so that really is always the first 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.400 order of business. That's why it's always sort of like 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.440 go to rehab and you have to get because the 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.760 frontal lobe of the brain is altered by substance use 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.600 such that the part that's used for learning is really impaired, 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.440 and so the learning that you would do for treatment 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.720 isn't possible. You can't see the mistakes you might be 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.800 making and correct or learn from them exactly kind of 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.200 you're inhibiting yourself and it also impacts their confidence in 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.480 a large way. I heard this Ted talk from almost 0:16:55.480 --> 0:17:00.360 ten years ago talking about how people now think of 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.760 someone who creates something great as a genius. They go, oh, 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.959 that person made something so great is there? But back 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.040 in ancient I think it was ancient Greece and Rome, 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.320 they actually thought the person was a vessel and the 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.480 genius came from the gods. So it was either the 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.120 gods gave you the idea and lucky you you were 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.439 the person that God cares it out, and if you 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.800 didn't perform the thing, if you didn't you know, make 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:27.960 the art or whatever, then the genius would move on 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.560 and show it to somebody else. And what I thought 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.119 was cool, I mean, which she pointed out, and I 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.399 thought was cool about that? That That maybe applies now? Is 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.760 that somebody, I mean, let's just bring it right to 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.640 current times, somebody like Kanye West, who clearly many people 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:44.840 go he's creatively like, what a genius, but also personally 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.360 falling apart and the guy is unhinged at all times. 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.800 And there's this element of from my perspective as an artist, 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:54.760 I feel like I'm watching a man who's got far 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.760 too much pressure he's got pressure of the world on 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.480 him saying like, keep making great things or else we're 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.040 going to abandon you, and then pressure on himself saying 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.159 I've loved a lot of the things I've made. I 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.320 need to hold myself to this high level of productivity, 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.480 of creativity, to the standard of craftsmanship, etcetera. And if 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.400 I can't do that, then it's over, or it's I'm 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.440 depressed or whatever. It is, right, And maybe I'm projecting 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.400 a lot on him, but I think it's a definitely, 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:22.720 it's safe to say it's a very common thing that 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:24.800 happens to a lot of artists, a lot of them. 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.440 They're one of the reasons why they go to substances 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.280 is because I actually have at a handful of friends 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.919 who don't like to create stuff unless they're high, and 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.360 they do it because, well, the last time I got 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.200 high and made something, I made some pretty dope ship. 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.919 Now it's like a link and it's like, well, I 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.080 got high and I made this song. The song was dope. 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.439 I made another song I wasn't high. Doing it from 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.240 a place of fear. They they don't believe they can 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.359 do it. They believe they got to be an alter 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.680 place to do it, and the drug is the damon 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:01.560 they're trying. It's either that or it's a key like 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.359 it helps like lubricate the situation and it makes it 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.720 easier to get in touch with that thing, whatever it is. 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:13.080 It's certainly like disinhibited. So there's something to that. But 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.479 there are other ways to disinhibit your mind. There are 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.320 actually other way something that is listening. What would you say, 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.160 what's another way they could go about it? I would 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.920 say there are states of mindfulness and meditation that allow 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.080 you to disinhibit your mind. Actually, that's a good point. 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.040 I have a couple of friends who write incredible lyrics 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.840 while they're running because their brain, your brain goes somewhere else, 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.440 or you're running and getting to a state of flow. Right, 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.359 So flow is the key to creativity, to be where 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.320 your mind can be messy and then later organized. But 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.360 messy is disinhibited and disinhibit You can do that by 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:52.119 sometimes getting into an exercise zone and anybody and artists 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.480 can do something like that without having to use a 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.800 substance to disinhibit be cause, of course the substances have 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.199 a double edged sword, right. There are other problems that 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.000 come with that, but it's coming from that place of fear, 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.080 like you're saying the need like maybe I haven't really 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.199 got it. How will I get it? How will I 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:09.679 keep it? If I don't keep it, I'll be a 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.720 band and I'll be lost. These are also psychotherapeutic issues 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:17.440 that treatment can help someone quite a bit with, especially 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:21.320 somebody who's already has this tendency as you're explaining Chester 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:25.000 did to feel more negative, or more worthless or more 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.600 hopeless about things. So I have a question moving away 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.159 from the artists themselves. So I know that you know 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.760 the complexities of the artist and the situation, especially as 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.240 you get into you know, you have a fan base. 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.360 There are expectations or whatever. We touched on that. Now, 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.359 what I think a lot of the teams around the 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.679 artist are wondering if there's something that they can do 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:50.879 because they see I've seen fans criticize the teams around 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.560 people that are going through maybe they go to rehab, 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:55.760 maybe they go to maybe they have a breakdown, and 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.479 then fans are saying, well, why didn't anybody else around 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.760 this person help them? Right? What do you think about that? 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.560 Because there there are I've heard some things lately from 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.800 people in our organization, like our production manager Jim, who's saying, 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.600 being on tour shows every night are very exciting. There. 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.240 It's like you get a super super big high and 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.399 then when it's over, for some people it's a really 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.800 low low, and the artists can feel that, but actually 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.680 the crews can feel that too, And he was wondering, 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.000 how you know, kind of out loud with me, is 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:29.840 there I wonder if there's anything we could do to 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:32.440 kind of help out. Well, first of all, let me 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:38.399