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Speaker 1: Thinking I don't know stories and things we simply don't
Speaker 1: know the answer to. Hi there, Welcome to another episode
Speaker 1: of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by Steve
Speaker 1: and and uh, of course, let me say once again,
Speaker 1: I'm Joe. So let's just have less I know, because
Speaker 1: I'm the important one. At least, I'm the pretty one.
Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, Yeah, Devon is a smart one. Yeah
Speaker 1: that's true. Okay, well let's talk about our mystery for
Speaker 1: this week. This is another maritime mystery, which I know
Speaker 1: everybody loves, right, and we're surprised it's Joe doing it. Surprised. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a fun little sort of murder on the
Speaker 1: high seas saying this is murder on the Herbert Fuller
Speaker 1: or what's your SubTime pleasantness on the high seas? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the Herbert Fuller was actually a ship, nineteenth century ship.
Speaker 1: It was a barking tea. And let me tell you
Speaker 1: first off, I know you guys are dying to know
Speaker 1: what a barkent Tea was because I don't think they
Speaker 1: build him anymore. Frankly, I don't believe they do. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: barkingtein is a ship. Yeah, it's a ship. It's well,
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a schooner. Rig that's it's a schooner.
Speaker 1: It's a schooner. But instead of like having fore and
Speaker 1: aft sales I usually see on sailboats, it's got one
Speaker 1: of the foremast is square rigged. And that's different from
Speaker 1: say a bark bark is a similar rig but the
Speaker 1: main mast and the foremaster square ring. What's that mean?
Speaker 1: Is it important? In the middle one? I don't know
Speaker 1: what s the mast in the very front he's the
Speaker 1: one he's talking about. And it is a square piece
Speaker 1: of canvas instead of a triangular It's really that simple,
Speaker 1: you know. No, no, no, no, no, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: got yard arms. I mean it is a square piece
Speaker 1: of Sorry, it's got yard arms hanging at right angles
Speaker 1: to the mast, but sail hangs down. But my question
Speaker 1: was that it's as simple as saying it's square rigged
Speaker 1: versus what's the other one for and aft? What's the
Speaker 1: other kind of triangular ring? The foreign four and aft is? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that except except for for gaff riggs, which are more
Speaker 1: trapezoidal rather than triangular. Yeah, there you go. All right.
Speaker 1: So now we were in our not a lesson for
Speaker 1: the day. We know what a barcntine is. Next week
Speaker 1: we're gonna how to tell you knot for the bowl
Speaker 1: and handy knot by the way. Uh so our barcntine.
Speaker 1: The Herbert Fuller left Boston on Friday, June July third,
Speaker 1: and I had a little lumber. It was headed for
Speaker 1: real saudio Argentina long way to go to Hallwood. But
Speaker 1: you know, hey, whatever, I thought that trees there, but
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. I was going to say the wood in
Speaker 1: America's vastly superior to any other woods. It really is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm actually that was one of the things that was
Speaker 1: confusing to be at Argentina doesn't really have much of
Speaker 1: the way of hardwoods, but on the other hand, Brazil
Speaker 1: does and like not that far away, so well prices
Speaker 1: or like size. Yeah, I mean, we had bought load
Speaker 1: of really giant old growth trees before we came in
Speaker 1: and starting to cut them all down. So maybe that
Speaker 1: was it. You know, if they needed larger lumber, probably
Speaker 1: come from North America, no, South America. Maybe that was it.
Speaker 1: Maybe they just did that the technology to mill it
Speaker 1: down to toothpicks and they had him have us do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it was a ship a little toothpicks. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know, but anyway, that's the story. They had lumber.
Speaker 1: They were heading for Argentina. Uh, here's the crew members.
Speaker 1: Small crew. There was a captain Charles Nash. His wife
Speaker 1: Laura Nash went to see with him, and she was
Speaker 1: described by the press as well endowed whatever that means.
Speaker 1: We know what that means. Press why, I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: it might have been something different years ago. I don't
Speaker 1: think so, yeah, but maybe. Well. Yeah. One of the
Speaker 1: other members of the crew was a half black guy,
Speaker 1: what they called him mulatto, Jonathan Spencer. He was a steward.
Speaker 1: And this news account that I read, I think was
Speaker 1: a New York Times said Jonathan Steward Comma colored, Comma Steward, Steward.
Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I didn't say about white for
Speaker 1: any of the other people. Yeah, that's what I was like. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: back to our captain and his wife, Laura Nash, and
Speaker 1: then nine crew members and one passenger. The passenger was
Speaker 1: Lester Monks, the old name Hawthorne, Lester Hathorne Monks. White. White, yeah, white, Harvard, Yeah,
Speaker 1: twenty years old Harvard students who was having bracchial issues apparently,
Speaker 1: and he decided that he thought that a sea journey
Speaker 1: along sea journey would be good for his bronculi issue.
Speaker 1: I bet he was. I bet some doctor was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know what's good for you. To get you on
Speaker 1: a ship. It's exactly what happened. His doctor told him
Speaker 1: to do it because the sea air would clear his lungs.
Speaker 1: It's it's like when they would say, you've got tuberculosis,
Speaker 1: you should move to the country and get the clean
Speaker 1: country air and it will. Yeah, that's one of my
Speaker 1: favorite things. I watch a lot of Agatha Christie's poiro
Speaker 1: and it's like, my favorite thing is like he's suffering
Speaker 1: from obesity in one episode and they're like, do you
Speaker 1: know what you need? The sea air that'll here you.
Speaker 1: So they send him to an island, Like has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with all of the biscuits, you're you know,
Speaker 1: it's definitely you just need to see hair. My favorite was,
Speaker 1: you're not feeling well. Let's let's take a little blood.
Speaker 1: That'll make you feel better. That'll that'll cure you. We
Speaker 1: gotta drain you have bad blood. Yeah and then yeah
Speaker 1: that I god knows how many people got killed by
Speaker 1: their own doctors back in those You gotta love a
Speaker 1: good barber. Yeah, so, Joe, Okay, we got off track.
Speaker 1: Your so how many how many people are in the
Speaker 1: crew total? Because I I thought I saw a different
Speaker 1: number than what you have is white mask. I think, well,
Speaker 1: if you count the captain, we're talking like ten Okay,
Speaker 1: that's what screwed me up. And then there were two
Speaker 1: while there's his wife and then Lester Monks, right, and
Speaker 1: that's okay. So that's where the variance that I saw
Speaker 1: was okay, So yeah, I got it, so yeah, real quickly.
Speaker 1: Like the crew. The first mate was Thomas bram For
Speaker 1: full named Thomas Meade Chambers brown. White, yeah, white, comma yeah,
Speaker 1: second sorry. The second day was August Bloomberg, I don't know,
Speaker 1: August Blomberg, who was a Russian Finn. Yeah, white guy.
Speaker 1: Jonathan Spencer, who was the non white guy, the steward
Speaker 1: who apparently was the only guy who had sailed with
Speaker 1: Captain Nash before on this particular voyage. And then the
Speaker 1: regular old seaman type guys, Henry j. Slice who was
Speaker 1: a German who was naturalized American, Francis Lohiuck. I don't
Speaker 1: know how to pronounce his last name, doesn't matter. He
Speaker 1: was French, he was. It was a deserter from the
Speaker 1: French Navy. Hendrik Burdock, Holland Folk Boston, Oscar Anderson Julius Westerberg,
Speaker 1: all from Sweeden. Uh and Julius was had for some reason,
Speaker 1: it was called Charlie Brown. That's a weird nickname for
Speaker 1: a Swedish guy named Julius Westerberg. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't get it either, but he was Charlie Brown switter
Speaker 1: that had a zigzag pattern on it. Apparently he did.
Speaker 1: Uh so, as I said already, the Herbert Fuller left
Speaker 1: Boston July third, headed south southeast for about ten days
Speaker 1: before things went all to hell, and then on the
Speaker 1: night of July thirteen to the fourteen was one things
Speaker 1: did take a turn for the worst. It was in
Speaker 1: the mid Atlantic, about halfway between Portugal and the United States,
Speaker 1: about four hundred miles south of Bermuda. After midnight. There
Speaker 1: are only four men away supposedly anyway, but maybe as
Speaker 1: many as five people awake. Thomas Bram of course, the
Speaker 1: first mate, Charlie Brown, who was at the helm, Francis
Speaker 1: lahak Or, the unpronounceable French guy, and Henry Product, and
Speaker 1: they were forward as Servia's lookouts. Captain Nash was asleep
Speaker 1: in the chart room. The chart room was aft of
Speaker 1: the main cabin, between the main cabin and the steering station.
Speaker 1: Apparently the captain slept there quite often. Maybe he liked
Speaker 1: to give his wife's space or maybe his wife's snore,
Speaker 1: but also the captain. Yeah, the captain was often very
Speaker 1: close to the helm well, but also just it happened
Speaker 1: often that I mean as recently at the nineteen fifties,
Speaker 1: it was typical for married people to sleep in separate beds.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've got a map here, and if you
Speaker 1: look at the schematic of the layout of the rooms,
Speaker 1: they look very big. I mean, I'm not surprised that
Speaker 1: they're not that big. So two people squeezed into one room,
Speaker 1: it's kind of tight quarters. And actually, frankly, the two
Speaker 1: largest rooms are the captain's room and the captain's wife's room.
Speaker 1: That's how it looks like, right, So I mean you
Speaker 1: would as far as as far as sleeping quarters, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they are, well, the captain's room in the captain's wife
Speaker 1: room with the same room you're looking at, the after
Speaker 1: cabin Yeah, the after cabinet had the couch in that
Speaker 1: he was sleeping on. Yeah. Yeah, that was not his stateroom.
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, yeah, rewind, Yeah, and there was it's known
Speaker 1: that he was sleeping there because that was reported later
Speaker 1: by Henry Slice, who was at the wheel from before.
Speaker 1: I don't know when he began, but he was at
Speaker 1: the wheel until midnight when he was spelled by Charlie Brown.
Speaker 1: I actually just realized this guy has a very unfortunate
Speaker 1: name based on, yeah, what happened in this story. I'm
Speaker 1: surprised he didn't get arrested and like sent to jail
Speaker 1: for this hank slice. Uh. But he said there was
Speaker 1: a there was a window. You can actually have a
Speaker 1: on here. You can see this this little window that's
Speaker 1: into the chart room right here over on the side there.
Speaker 1: But anyway, this this uh, this small window which is
Speaker 1: I take a eleven by sixteen inches about looks into
Speaker 1: the chart room. And he said, from his station at
Speaker 1: the wheel, he could see the captain's leg from about
Speaker 1: the knee on down in the chart room. And as
Speaker 1: we know, that is the most important part of the
Speaker 1: leg for telling if somebody or telling if there the
Speaker 1: captain or not. You know, it's like or telling if
Speaker 1: it's even a huven being rather versus two prop legs
Speaker 1: that the captain put there while the captain went off
Speaker 1: and did something else that with the aliens could have been.
Speaker 1: But that's all he saw, so he assumed it was
Speaker 1: a captain. Yeah, especially it could have just been to
Speaker 1: you know, wooden pegs, because if I learned anything about
Speaker 1: people who are captains, they all have pig legs. Don't
Speaker 1: thing we'll have one pig leg. Well, he said he
Speaker 1: could see the one leg. Yeah, I could see. It
Speaker 1: was dark. Yeah, just saying it was kind of dark.
Speaker 1: But anyway, he but he says he saw the captain news.
Speaker 1: He thought the captain was there, but then he was
Speaker 1: spelled at midnight by Charlie Brown. Our passenger, Lester Monk,
Speaker 1: went to sleep around eight pm. Okay, yeah, sorry, I
Speaker 1: was going to make fun of the twenty year old
Speaker 1: who's like, it's a p M. Time to turn it.
Speaker 1: But then I remembered he was super sick, so I
Speaker 1: felt that I don't know if he was super sick
Speaker 1: super sick. I don't think there was a whole lot
Speaker 1: going on on board the ship. Actually, no, I imagine
Speaker 1: there was a lot of boredom. It would have been
Speaker 1: light out still, though probably I probably would stayed away
Speaker 1: a little later myself, because I said, yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: it was July in the mid Atlantic. There should have
Speaker 1: been some light still. But we don't. No matter whatever happened,
Speaker 1: he wants to sleep around eight and he was awoken
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night by a scream, just
Speaker 1: like in the mystery novels Who And that scream was
Speaker 1: no doubt from Laura Nash, who was being murdered. As
Speaker 1: it turns out, she does wind up getting killed in
Speaker 1: this story. Uh, And Monks said, he sat up and
Speaker 1: listened because he was well awoken by it, so he
Speaker 1: wasn't sure if he just dreamed it or what. And
Speaker 1: he started to lay his head back down on the
Speaker 1: on the bed, and then he hears another scream, So well,
Speaker 1: it's it's real after all, he decided. So he gets up.
Speaker 1: You get to revolver out and he left his cabin.
Speaker 1: So monkst cabin opened directly onto what's the main the
Speaker 1: main cabin, and from the main cabin, it's like the
Speaker 1: chart room leads off there, the captain's stateroom leads off
Speaker 1: of there, the pantry. It's literally just in the middle
Speaker 1: of all in the middle of a bunch of other small,
Speaker 1: big open room in the middle everything opens on to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's he goes into the main cabin and then he
Speaker 1: goes aft to the chart room where the captain was
Speaker 1: sleeping or what the captain had been sleeping, because the
Speaker 1: captain you're using body terms maybe, yeah, aft, I mean
Speaker 1: he went back towards the rear of the boat of
Speaker 1: the ship. Yeah, okay, And when he got there, it
Speaker 1: was kind of dark, but he saw that the captain's
Speaker 1: cot had been knocked over, and then he heard gurgling
Speaker 1: noises and he approached the captain and saw him in
Speaker 1: the darkness. He couldn't make him out too closely, but
Speaker 1: the captain went again, as I said, was making these
Speaker 1: weird gurgling noises and nothing else. And then he reached
Speaker 1: out to touch him and his aunt came away with
Speaker 1: blood all over it. So he has seen something really
Speaker 1: bad had happened. He'd fallen out of his cotton, gotten
Speaker 1: a bloody nose, yeah or yeah, or bloody everything. Uh
Speaker 1: So what he said he did then is he went
Speaker 1: out or not to have went forward to Laura Nash's
Speaker 1: cabin because, as he said, Larry wanted to get her
Speaker 1: help with Captain Nash because he thought something had happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like he had a bloody nose. He had a bloody
Speaker 1: nose or something, and he's laying there gurgling. So so
Speaker 1: he runs to get her, and he at this point
Speaker 1: did not realize what had happened. But I'll tell you.
Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and clear you guys in the captain
Speaker 1: got hacked up with an ax Ax murder hit in
Speaker 1: the head I think six or seven. Yeah, yeah, pretty
Speaker 1: pretty nasty gashes. But when Lester Monks gets to Laura's cabin,
Speaker 1: I finds out, well, she's been murdered too, and her
Speaker 1: arms for U C S I types had defensive wounds,
Speaker 1: so she had gouges and slashes in her in her forearms,
Speaker 1: in her hands. But she didn't help her much. She
Speaker 1: got killed anyway. And I don't think he checked your pulse.
Speaker 1: He just wanted head and went forward, you know. Apparently
Speaker 1: she was just obviously dead, and then sometimes I happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So he goes out the forward passageway and up a
Speaker 1: ladder to the deck when he sees Charles Bram on deck.
Speaker 1: Charles Brown first mate, calls out to him, and but
Speaker 1: it turns out he's also got his gun with him
Speaker 1: and he's pointing at Bram, which made Bram a little nervous. Yeah,
Speaker 1: grabs a piece of wood and throws it at him,
Speaker 1: but he actually missed it anyway, Then Lester realized what
Speaker 1: he was doing, and then so then stop pointing. He's
Speaker 1: got at Bram. But then he says the cat has
Speaker 1: been murdered, and he told Bram, you've got to come
Speaker 1: blow and see. And then, according to Monks, Bram said no, no, no.
Speaker 1: Although I'm not exactly sure how he said that. All
Speaker 1: this stuff get is kind of subjective, and it comes
Speaker 1: back to hot Bram's later on because he becomes the
Speaker 1: main suspect. All of these statements could be said in
Speaker 1: a multitude of ways to implicate guilt or not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how how how does him saying no, no, no, like
Speaker 1: if he sees the bodies and he goes, no, no no,
Speaker 1: you know, like like you know, people do somethings. You
Speaker 1: just kind of mutter something under your breath when you're
Speaker 1: in a stressful situation. Or he could be the overly
Speaker 1: dramatic no no no, just like he's acting super over
Speaker 1: acting because some of the stuff he says. I looked,
Speaker 1: I was like, he is such a bad actor. I
Speaker 1: thought maybe he is just really pooping his pants. Yeah, maybe,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't really know, and maybe some people
Speaker 1: have exaggerated a few things that he said too. I
Speaker 1: think what he said no, no, no, but he really
Speaker 1: meant was he it was dismayed because he had gone
Speaker 1: down the captain's stateroom with an axe to get a souvenir.
Speaker 1: He wanted to captain's ear, and he screwed up, didn't
Speaker 1: get it in time. Yeah, I screwed up. Yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so say no, no, no, that's talked into going below
Speaker 1: to actually go after the chart room. Why the lamp,
Speaker 1: and well here's a captain who is still not quite dead,
Speaker 1: still dying. Uh. And then, according to Lester Monks, Braham
Speaker 1: just stood there and said nothing and did nothing to
Speaker 1: help Captain Nash. Yeah, but it doesn't really sound like
Speaker 1: monst at anything. He kind of just stood there and
Speaker 1: they were like, well, dude, I can't do anything. I'm
Speaker 1: holding the lamp. You've got helping No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I have the revolver, I have the gun. Let's get
Speaker 1: his wife. She can deal with it. I guess, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's fairness to both of them. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: there really wasn't anything they could do. He was kind
Speaker 1: of a goner. Yeah, although I'm I've been watched this
Speaker 1: has been like an ongoing discussion in my house because,
Speaker 1: as you guys know, I'm I've been like kind of
Speaker 1: progressively pursuing more and more first aid training, right, and um,
Speaker 1: my significant other who I live with, has has no certification.
Speaker 1: He wasn't a boy scout, and like that's the last
Speaker 1: time he took it, and so he now knows everything
Speaker 1: he needs to notice survive in the actually teach you everything. Well,
Speaker 1: it's this ongoing conversation of like I'm always like why
Speaker 1: are more people trained? And why aren't why don't more
Speaker 1: people get involved? You know, we drive past a car
Speaker 1: accident and I'm like, oh my god, is someone hurt?
Speaker 1: Like we need to stop in make sure, And he's
Speaker 1: like no, there's like twenty people there, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: and I think that happens a lot in these situations
Speaker 1: where people just kind of are like I don't know
Speaker 1: what to do. I'm going to make it worse. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna stand here and I don't know, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know what to do, especially at where first aid
Speaker 1: was but existed, right, which is probably why Monks was like, well, obviously,
Speaker 1: like the first mate is going to know how to
Speaker 1: help this guy, right, He's going to know how to
Speaker 1: help him, not necessarily, and you know, and it's probably
Speaker 1: just you know, both of them standing there thinking the
Speaker 1: other guy's going to do something because they know, but
Speaker 1: you know, neither of them did. I don't necessarily think
Speaker 1: it's suspicious, but it wasn't great, not suspicious. But you know,
Speaker 1: back in those days, you probably only make things worse.
Speaker 1: But even touching him, we'd probably give him infection just
Speaker 1: by touching him. So yeah, just leave alone. Yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: that was a long tangent to get to my bed.
Speaker 1: That's okay, okay O. Our guys after standing over the
Speaker 1: captain for for a moment or two, they go back
Speaker 1: up on deck and then they're sort of wondering what
Speaker 1: to you. Monks Lester Monks suggested they wake up the
Speaker 1: second mate, Blomberg. It was interesting to go back up
Speaker 1: on deck. I would have thought they would have had
Speaker 1: to go past the door to his stateroom. Anyway, Well,
Speaker 1: there's two there's two ways to egg. I could have
Speaker 1: gone aft, yeah, but I'm not sure that they want
Speaker 1: aff they went aft, that would have taken past the
Speaker 1: steering wheel where the steering station where Charlie Brown was,
Speaker 1: wouldn't they have gone out into the little hall area.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, that little that little corridor leaves
Speaker 1: forward forward past of the second mate's cabin. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: the opposite way. But now I'm realizing that that actually
Speaker 1: also ducks out to the columns. So I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: they went forward. Well anyway, you know, details um and
Speaker 1: then Bran supposedly told Monks that he thought there was
Speaker 1: a mute and you going on and uh and and
Speaker 1: he believed that second mate Blomberg was forward with the
Speaker 1: rest of the crew plodding with them. And Bram said
Speaker 1: that he was afraid the crew was going to murder
Speaker 1: him because apparently he said he'd been really art on
Speaker 1: them and he thought they would be looking for a
Speaker 1: little payback. But he's a little paranoidn't But weren't Monks
Speaker 1: and and Bram's or Bram forward, They would have been
Speaker 1: about a midships I think they were on deck midship.
Speaker 1: They on deck about midship, and they couldn't see. It
Speaker 1: was too dark. It was dark, and it was it
Speaker 1: was dark, and there's a there's a cabin up towards
Speaker 1: about that. The people could have been behind, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know but apparently and this is this boat.
Speaker 1: The ship I guess was about two feet long, so
Speaker 1: it's pretty big. Okay, decent side, We've got a paranoid
Speaker 1: first meet, very paranoid and murdered captain and wife. Captain
Speaker 1: and wife and nobody knows what the second mate is
Speaker 1: not yet but we'll find out right now after this
Speaker 1: commercial break. Just kidding. Uh. Bram and Monks basically sat
Speaker 1: on the deck for the rest of the night. They
Speaker 1: and in a situation like that, when you've just seen
Speaker 1: a couple of people that have been hacked to death
Speaker 1: with an axe, I think sitting back to back on
Speaker 1: the deck with your you know, your your guard up,
Speaker 1: it's not a bad idea, it would agree, especially since
Speaker 1: you watched one of them die. But it's not like you.
Speaker 1: I mean, they walked in on one really horrific scene
Speaker 1: and then watched out to the last last of his life.
Speaker 1: I would probably sit up to Yeah, I think so. Uh.
Speaker 1: After the sun came out, though, they decided to get
Speaker 1: the ship. Stuart Spencer, who apparently fairly experienced sailor chep guy.
Speaker 1: Spencer goes after check on the captain and turns out
Speaker 1: the captain is dead. And he's been chopped seven eight
Speaker 1: times in the head with an axe. Was Spencer the
Speaker 1: only one who had also traveled with the captain before, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And he also checked on Blomberg's cabin and the second mate, Blomberg,
Speaker 1: And it turns out Blomberg was dead too, So they've
Speaker 1: got three corpses now up as well. Yeah, so three
Speaker 1: dead people. And as you can naturally imagine, this began
Speaker 1: kind of a long strained period for everybody on the
Speaker 1: on the ship because they're frankly in the middle of
Speaker 1: the Atlantic, they're far there, days and days sail away
Speaker 1: from anywhere, and they've got an axe murderer on board. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I was already killed. I mean, yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: third of their Yeah, it's a good one. This is
Speaker 1: a totally like kind of a well, I won't say it,
Speaker 1: I'll say it later. Everybody was basically eyeing everybody else,
Speaker 1: and I would be I wouldn't turn my back on anybody.
Speaker 1: But one thing that everybody sort of agreed on afterwards
Speaker 1: was that nobody was covered in blood, and they were
Speaker 1: all looking each other over for blood, probably pretty carefully,
Speaker 1: so that we can deduce from that the killer must
Speaker 1: have changed his clothes and washed up, unless, of course,
Speaker 1: the killer was somebody else, if it was like Russian
Speaker 1: frogman who came over the side of murder, or if
Speaker 1: it was like the kraken, you know, or something like
Speaker 1: that French yeah, or the French. Yeah. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: good point. It's a good point. Could have been stowaway.
Speaker 1: But anyway, whoever it was, I assume it was one
Speaker 1: of them, and he had he had clever fellow that
Speaker 1: he was, changed his clothes and washed it, washed himself up, looked,
Speaker 1: looked in the mirror and said, oh, this looks suspicious. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You can't just change your clothes and you can have
Speaker 1: spatter all over your friends in your hand. Although that
Speaker 1: does seem like that, would you know cleaning up right,
Speaker 1: isn't this This is the period where it's just kind
Speaker 1: of like you've got a basin of water and in
Speaker 1: your room and that would be pretty hard to clean up,
Speaker 1: it would be, and then you'd have to get rid
Speaker 1: of the basin of water and then refill it so
Speaker 1: it doesn't also look suspicious. That's a lot of yeah,
Speaker 1: not just like hopping in the shower. No, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a quick down and dirty thing. I wouldn't think,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, whoever did it must have done it quick.
Speaker 1: But and that that was around that time, and of
Speaker 1: course Brams started acting strange. Um for one thing, they
Speaker 1: were looking around for the bloody murder weapon and they
Speaker 1: found it. They found an act with blood and gore
Speaker 1: on it, you know, and and pieces of hair and
Speaker 1: everything else where they find it. They found it on deck,
Speaker 1: just sitting on the deck. Yeah. It was like, I
Speaker 1: wasn't like like right in the middle where everybody could
Speaker 1: see it, but it was it was laying on deck somewhere.
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly did you ever find that precisely where
Speaker 1: it Wasn't it just like it wasn't a squirreled away
Speaker 1: in like a bucket of flower or something right now,
Speaker 1: it was somewhere. It's probably next to the rail on something.
Speaker 1: And also it wasn't thrown overboard on the night of
Speaker 1: the murder. Now whether it was thrown over the next day,
Speaker 1: but by the b or I actually said it could
Speaker 1: it could actually have been Bram. I'm calling him Bram.
Speaker 1: That's doing him. Yeah. Yeah, with a name like Bram,
Speaker 1: he must be a killer. But but yeah, they did
Speaker 1: find the acts he found. He picks up this is it,
Speaker 1: This must be the murder weapon. I'm going to get
Speaker 1: rid of it, and he throws it. Should I get
Speaker 1: rid Should I get rid of And again this is
Speaker 1: one of those those things where you could interpret it
Speaker 1: in multiple woice. It's, you know, should I get rid
Speaker 1: of it? Or should I get I mean, it's it
Speaker 1: just he does all this weird stuff. He's such a screwball. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, they gotta remember this too. I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean fingerprints. Fingerprinting wasn't really a thing, and there was
Speaker 1: nothing to link him. It wouldn't have been any sort
Speaker 1: of smoking gun that would have linked it to the murder.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people have said that, you know,
Speaker 1: that's another incriminating piece of evidence against him. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's so it's worth reiterating. Right, He
Speaker 1: coast should I get rid of this? And then throws
Speaker 1: it over. I mean, I agree. I don't think it
Speaker 1: was particularly strong evidence against him. I mean, probably be
Speaker 1: very little linking. But anybody recorded statements immediately after that,
Speaker 1: he said a pederal skip three times. Okay, But here's
Speaker 1: here's the really dumb thing about chucking the axe overboard
Speaker 1: is ships at this time, in this era, there were
Speaker 1: axes all over the place. I mean, it was a
Speaker 1: common tool because that's he fixed the ship and fixed
Speaker 1: rigging and cut rigging. It got rid of stuff. So
Speaker 1: it's not like that was the only ax around. So
Speaker 1: I seen it some of the writing that he threw
Speaker 1: the acts away so that the killer couldn't get the
Speaker 1: rest of them. I guess I would have thought more
Speaker 1: it was like a superstitious thing in the same way
Speaker 1: that like, you know, if the murder weapon is still there,
Speaker 1: the ghost of the murder murdered people are going to
Speaker 1: come and haunt. In other cases, resulves similarly, Like I know,
Speaker 1: we're about to talk about the fact that he tried
Speaker 1: to throw the bodies overboard. Yeah, well he suggested that
Speaker 1: he didn't actually physically try, No, I know, but yeah,
Speaker 1: and even then, I think, you know, to me, that
Speaker 1: kind of speaks of somebody who's like super superstitious and
Speaker 1: sailors back in those days, yeah, for superstition, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And so you know, it could have been as simple
Speaker 1: as the ghosts of these humans are going to come
Speaker 1: haunt us if we don't just get rid of all
Speaker 1: this stuff. That could have been it, or it could
Speaker 1: have just been like you know, sailors are all about
Speaker 1: well this means bad luck, that means bad Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean if it was sailors, I mean, how do they
Speaker 1: get to a day because so many things for the
Speaker 1: sailors mean bad luck. Well, I mean one of them
Speaker 1: is a woman on board usually, so I actually wondered
Speaker 1: about that. I mean, we are are a bit farther
Speaker 1: in time where it's not such a hard and fast rule.
Speaker 1: But still you gotta wonder if there wasn't chatter on
Speaker 1: the boat. I'm sure there was. And actually another superstition
Speaker 1: apparently that I've heard anyway, was that leaving port on
Speaker 1: a friday is also bad luck. And they left on
Speaker 1: a friday. They left on the third of July, which
Speaker 1: means they didn't get to see the fireworks the next day.
Speaker 1: That's good. That was a really dumb move, that's the thing.
Speaker 1: But so okay, so I kind of boiled this. But
Speaker 1: he then tries to throw the bodies overboard, right, uh yeah,
Speaker 1: After the entire crew had been assembled and informed of
Speaker 1: what had happened, and they go, well, what do we
Speaker 1: do next? And the first thing he says, well, let's
Speaker 1: let's throw the bodies ever board, and yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: cleaned up this mess. And actually that's not a totally
Speaker 1: dumb thing, because when your days out and bodies are dangerous, Oh,
Speaker 1: they're not just gonna get gross, They're gonna get dangerous.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah there, I mean all of their fluids
Speaker 1: and everything all around. I mean similarly with the ax, right,
Speaker 1: that's going to get dangerous more than just it being
Speaker 1: a weapon. Yeah, the act could be washed off though,
Speaker 1: at least you could. But if you've got more, why
Speaker 1: not just why not just pitch it? Yeah, because I
Speaker 1: mean it could be washed off, but probably not really
Speaker 1: to like a medical satisfaction. So that was probably not
Speaker 1: the concern. They didn't know. It's not the worst idea
Speaker 1: to toss these things overboard, these things, the bodies would
Speaker 1: be I would be saying, to pitch them. I don't
Speaker 1: like having dead bodies around personally, get rid of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And Henry Slice, I think, was the guy who pointed
Speaker 1: this out, that the bodies were evidence, and Bram also
Speaker 1: thought that they should clean up the huge bloody mass
Speaker 1: below decks and which is you know again, I could
Speaker 1: sort of see that maybe it was a knee freak.
Speaker 1: But Slice also felt that they leend up shouldn't happen
Speaker 1: because that's evidence down there. And so they put the
Speaker 1: bodies into the ship's jolly boat. Jolly boat being the
Speaker 1: ship's tender. You know, it's that small little dinghy that
Speaker 1: you know exactly. Yeah, So they had the jolly but
Speaker 1: just in this case, it was hanging on the side
Speaker 1: of the ship, I think on the starboard side about
Speaker 1: the midships, and so they put the bodies in there. Well,
Speaker 1: they just sort of like you know, festered. Yeah, then
Speaker 1: they had to decide and had to decide where to
Speaker 1: go because again they're in the middle of nowhere. Bram
Speaker 1: suggested again another strike against him. He said they should
Speaker 1: continue on to South America to French Guiana, which is
Speaker 1: kind of like where that direction they were heading. That
Speaker 1: was about fift hundred miles away. And again, as I
Speaker 1: said before, they were about four hundred miles south of Bermuda.
Speaker 1: Uh so that puts them about eleven hundred miles from
Speaker 1: Boston where they sailed out of, and about eleven hundred
Speaker 1: miles from Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. Yeah, and so apparently
Speaker 1: the crew decided to head straight in north to Newfoundland
Speaker 1: and Nova Scotia. And don't understand that that is so
Speaker 1: strange to me that you just do it about face
Speaker 1: and go almost all the way back home instead of
Speaker 1: just hanging a right hand turn and go into a
Speaker 1: place he said, super close. Yeah, I was wondering about
Speaker 1: that too, at the very at least, you know, if
Speaker 1: they were going to go back north, the winds were
Speaker 1: favorable for going north. But Boston, the city that came
Speaker 1: from it was also was about the same distance and
Speaker 1: and also pretty much north, you know, so the winds
Speaker 1: are you know, I don't know why they didn't shoot
Speaker 1: for Boston. I don't get that, or, like you said,
Speaker 1: why not shoot for somewhere further south on the east coast.
Speaker 1: The more I think about this, the more I bet
Speaker 1: that the captain and the second mate were the only
Speaker 1: ones who knew how to navigate well, because suddenly I
Speaker 1: just I was like, I just suddenly wonder, wait, we're
Speaker 1: just going to head north and we'll find one of
Speaker 1: those places eventually. We know that into something. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I I agree. I think it's weird that
Speaker 1: they didn't just like go to Boston. Isn't as weird
Speaker 1: that they didn't just hanger right and go for land
Speaker 1: just because you don't. You know, this is kind of
Speaker 1: a time where you you're probably not totally certain about
Speaker 1: the government or the settlements that you might six. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you if if they had turned and gone like
Speaker 1: not do west, probably not, you don't. But if they
Speaker 1: had gone like northwest, then they would have hit like,
Speaker 1: well whatever, Carolina. Yeah, I mean, if that's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they weren't that far south, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so
Speaker 1: I mean, I just you know, mostly I think you wouldn't.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't want to be landing necessarily on like you know,
Speaker 1: the Bahamas or like some kind of k in Berma, Dominica,
Speaker 1: Dominican republics, not necessarily at that time the place, but yeah,
Speaker 1: Florida or the Carolinas or I mean, all of those things.
Speaker 1: You're probably right. Probably nobody else knew him. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that Braham knew we're pointing in the right direction.
Speaker 1: If we just keep going, we'll hit South America and
Speaker 1: we can finish this trip. So it's about it's a
Speaker 1: pretty big strike against him that he said, let's go
Speaker 1: this really far place away. Well, what the the prosecution
Speaker 1: said later at his trial, was that, well, of course
Speaker 1: he wanted to go sail on because his plan, his secret,
Speaker 1: covert plan, was to disappeared. Yeah, what his plan was
Speaker 1: to murder everybody else on the ships as they sailed south,
Speaker 1: and then he could just sell the cargo in the
Speaker 1: ship and just disappear whatever. Although again, if you're bad
Speaker 1: in a crisis, I guess you can kind of I
Speaker 1: could a little bit get into his head and think, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's keep going south towards our destination because we have
Speaker 1: all this cargo and it's going to be big trouble
Speaker 1: if we don't arrive with this cargo one time. So
Speaker 1: we'll just go that way and we're just good, you know,
Speaker 1: like just keep going that way. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a good thought process, but I can a little bit
Speaker 1: get it if that was his thought process, But I
Speaker 1: don't think it was. Yeah, I don't know that. The
Speaker 1: whole thing is just this is a weird little story,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, Bram was not the only one
Speaker 1: who acted oddly. I think not at all. He's just
Speaker 1: got the most attention. Yeah he did. He did. What's
Speaker 1: what's another strike against him? He came up with a
Speaker 1: theory about the murders. Yeah, he's a great armchair detective
Speaker 1: and now I know. But so he said, he told
Speaker 1: he told us to monks, have the lester monks. He
Speaker 1: said that Blomberg, the second mate had that was this
Speaker 1: was this theory. I tried to rape Mrs Nash, who screamed,
Speaker 1: which caused Captain Nash to come running to save the days.
Speaker 1: Blomberg murdered both of them with an axe, but in
Speaker 1: the fight what he was mortally wounded himself and then
Speaker 1: he crawled back to his cabin before he expired. So
Speaker 1: that was that was supposedly Brahm's theory about the murder.
Speaker 1: So why wasn't the captain in the same room as
Speaker 1: his wife, Well, he crawled off to the chart room
Speaker 1: to die. Yeah, they all crawled out to their respective rooms,
Speaker 1: and that's why there was that really giant trail of blood,
Speaker 1: right exactly, except well, now he crawled to his state room.
Speaker 1: He got some of you got some like rags and
Speaker 1: came back and cleaned up the and then and cleaned
Speaker 1: up behind him. Yeah exactly. Yeah, obviously it's it's an absurd,
Speaker 1: absurd theory. But uh, you know who knows maybe he
Speaker 1: had been drinking. But actually, but that was considered strike
Speaker 1: against him because it looked like he was trying to
Speaker 1: shift the blame onto Blomberg, who couldn't who was dead
Speaker 1: and couldn't defend his name. Although I should also be
Speaker 1: noted that a lot of this stuff came from Lester Monks,
Speaker 1: who wrote a lot of this stuff down. So there's
Speaker 1: I guess that's one thing that people should take into consideration.
Speaker 1: He who writes history can shape it however he wants. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's it could be that he
Speaker 1: was the one who did it all and then he
Speaker 1: just wrote the accounts down however he wanted them to be,
Speaker 1: so he was a completely innocent guy. You never Now
Speaker 1: I've sort of wondered about old Lester monks, but we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that in the theories. Yeah, but also, and
Speaker 1: I said, as I said, he wrote it down, and
Speaker 1: then Monks also claimed that Bram suggests at one point
Speaker 1: that they should tear up his account that he had
Speaker 1: written down. Well yeah, and uh, and Monks refused to
Speaker 1: do that. So that doesn't look good for Bram. If
Speaker 1: if he actually said that, and probably he read what
Speaker 1: was being written about unless Monks was totally misrepresenting it
Speaker 1: and he was like, that's total bunk. What are you doing.
Speaker 1: Maybe he read it thought yeah, that he could read,
Speaker 1: and thought it was like yeah, like I say, dishonest.
Speaker 1: But still at this time, nobody was totally sure who
Speaker 1: was guilty of the murders, so it was a paranoid time.
Speaker 1: It took him six days to make landfall, and nobody
Speaker 1: wanted to go below decks, especially alone, so everybody was
Speaker 1: sleeping on deck and just spending all their time on deck.
Speaker 1: Surprise surprise, which turned had to be even less fun
Speaker 1: than you would think because it was this bad smell
Speaker 1: coming out of the jolly boat. Yeah yeah, this random,
Speaker 1: weird yeah, I mean, totally mysterious smell. It was causing that.
Speaker 1: I wonder. Yeah, finally somebody had this bright idea to
Speaker 1: lower the boat and tow it behind the ship. It
Speaker 1: was probably a lifesaver because this is July, it's even
Speaker 1: in the mid Atlantic, it's going to be warm, if
Speaker 1: not hot. I could imagine those bodies were pretty ripe. Uh.
Speaker 1: What else happened during this time, Well, Charlie Brown got busted.
Speaker 1: Remember him, the Swedish guy who was named Charlie Brown
Speaker 1: for one reason that nobody knows. Yeah, that's yeah. He yeah,
Speaker 1: he was caught throwing a pair of bloody pants over
Speaker 1: the rail, to which he said, oh brother, yeah, Charlie.
Speaker 1: Charlie got tossed into menacles and locked into a cabin
Speaker 1: because he was now the prime suspect, although he claimed
Speaker 1: that he had just gotten the bloody from dragging the
Speaker 1: bodies up from below decks and put him in the
Speaker 1: jolly boat, which is entirely possible. Yeah, if he was
Speaker 1: one of the people who helped with that, yeah, and
Speaker 1: but yeah, but throwing them overboard, that looks guilty as hell.
Speaker 1: But then after Charlie was locked up in his cabin
Speaker 1: for a little while, he finally he revealed that he
Speaker 1: had seen something on the night of the murders. Remember
Speaker 1: he was steering the boat and there was that little,
Speaker 1: that little small window into the chart room. Well, he
Speaker 1: said that when he was steering the ship during those
Speaker 1: wee hours of the morning, he saw the murders taking place.
Speaker 1: He suddenly remembered, he suddenly remembered that he saw the conveniently,
Speaker 1: I know, he saw that he saw Bram murdering the captain.
Speaker 1: He said, he also heard Mrs Nash scream. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then he said that he Bram come up on deck
Speaker 1: afterwards carrying something which was probably an axe, but it
Speaker 1: was dark as we couldn't tell for share. So that
Speaker 1: was his story. Uh. And so the crew grabbed Bram
Speaker 1: and they changed it to a mast, and apparently he
Speaker 1: stayed there until the ship got to Halifax Nova Scotia.
Speaker 1: That was on July one, So I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I'm not sure they changed into the mask on
Speaker 1: July like fourteen or something. Oh yeah, I was just
Speaker 1: talking without the duration of oh yeah, yeah, the whole yeah,
Speaker 1: the dead body thing. Yeah, so you know, it sounds
Speaker 1: like Bram spent at least a few days last to
Speaker 1: the mast, maybe several could. Yeah, it must have been
Speaker 1: a great time. Yeah, And I think somebody wrote a
Speaker 1: book about this, actually, I think that, you know. And uh,
Speaker 1: but in that book actually played a small role. It
Speaker 1: was sort of a novelized Yeah, it was totally a
Speaker 1: fictionalized version. Yeah, but it did play a role later on,
Speaker 1: a slight role which I will mention. But when they
Speaker 1: got to Nova Scotia, the entire crew was arrested and
Speaker 1: locked up. So the police could sort of sort things out.
Speaker 1: Step back to the U. S. Well, I was gonna
Speaker 1: say they were all locked up because the US, because
Speaker 1: it was a U. S ship, had to do the investigation.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, the Nova Scotia was like, we're
Speaker 1: not even going to scare around with this. You're all
Speaker 1: getting an irons. Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. No, never, No,
Speaker 1: I mean literally, the the US doesn't tend to investigate
Speaker 1: things that happened on ships that are Yeah, we saw
Speaker 1: that with the Rebecca Korem. Yeah, that's why the the
Speaker 1: US wasn't all that interested in high seas. That's why
Speaker 1: I do all my murdering in the high seas. Where
Speaker 1: we are we though, back in the U. S. Air,
Speaker 1: of course intensely investigated by the police, and the detective
Speaker 1: sat Bram down. Of course he was a prime suspect
Speaker 1: because of what Charlie Brown had said about seeing him
Speaker 1: murder the captain. So the police sets him down and
Speaker 1: says to him, well, Charlie Brown has testified he saw
Speaker 1: you murder the captain in the chart room to that
Speaker 1: window from the steering station, to which Bramp said, quote,
Speaker 1: he couldn't have seen me. Where was he unquote what
Speaker 1: was taken as a slip of the tongue. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like saying, well, you could not have seen me
Speaker 1: killing the captain in my red coat because I was
Speaker 1: wearing my black coat. Yeah, he's wrong, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's so that was taken as an incriminating statement, Like
Speaker 1: he was saying he could not have seen me killing
Speaker 1: the captain because I was careful to be out of
Speaker 1: sight when I did it. And he could have also
Speaker 1: been saying he couldn't have seen me because I didn't
Speaker 1: do it well that or you know, there's the whole
Speaker 1: statement that he saw him walking out of the cabin
Speaker 1: area on deck, and you know, he might have have
Speaker 1: gone not forward where the wheel was he but he
Speaker 1: might have headed towards the rear of this ship from
Speaker 1: his own cabin because his because his room is actually
Speaker 1: directly across from the second mates, so he could have
Speaker 1: popped out the back entrance unawares of what had happened.
Speaker 1: And he's like, how could he have seen me? I
Speaker 1: was on the other side of the of that entire area,
Speaker 1: Like that could be what he was trying to say.
Speaker 1: It could have been. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly not an incriminating thing. But all of
Speaker 1: the various actions and statements from Bram we're put in
Speaker 1: front of a jury by the prosecution. These included well,
Speaker 1: of course, as I mentioned, he found a murder weapon
Speaker 1: threw it overboard. He had tried to pen to blame
Speaker 1: on Blomberg with his murder theory. He later tried to
Speaker 1: blame Charlie Brown. He did have bloody pants, the blady pants. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He also supposedly asked monks to destroy his written account
Speaker 1: because it put him in an unfavorable light. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that Spencer the Stewart testified that Bram had railed about
Speaker 1: Captain Nash and second Might Blomberg earlier in the voyage,
Speaker 1: and that he also said something in the effect that
Speaker 1: he wanted to have sex with Mrs Nash. Does that
Speaker 1: sound at all out of character of what you would
Speaker 1: expect to come out of the mouth of a grumpy
Speaker 1: sailor that day and age? I hate that guy, I
Speaker 1: hate that guy. I want to sleep with that lady. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is this is not sound unusual. I I wouldn't
Speaker 1: not expect that. Let's not forget what the paper said
Speaker 1: about Mrs Nash who was well endowed, so I'm sure
Speaker 1: that he was not the only one on the ship. Really,
Speaker 1: it's gotta be kind of a weird thing to be
Speaker 1: the captain and know that every single guy in the
Speaker 1: crew was just lusting after your wife. Yeah, weird. Well
Speaker 1: that's a power dynamic, I would say. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's not like he didn't expect that. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were getting into Yeah, I had to have known about it.
Speaker 1: Maybe he enjoyed it. It's like, ha ha, I can't
Speaker 1: have it. Yeah, Well, anyway, when you were on your
Speaker 1: cruise ship, you were the only woman, right, Okay, never
Speaker 1: mind what else the prosecution, as I said, they've made
Speaker 1: the point that he wanted that longer trip to Prince
Speaker 1: Guiana so he could murder everybody and so the body's
Speaker 1: overboard and stuff, which is kind of amazing theory because
Speaker 1: there's no evidence of that. Maybe he didn't tend to
Speaker 1: do that, but I think the prosecution had a little
Speaker 1: more a little more flexibility in those things to put forward,
Speaker 1: you know, ludicrous theories. But they also brought up some
Speaker 1: older acquintances. Come the prosecution never does that, they never,
Speaker 1: they never, or now they still do it. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: there was no forensic files to come in later and
Speaker 1: prove the case. Yeah, I think that the I think
Speaker 1: they were a little work careless back in those days,
Speaker 1: although there's still plenty of that going on today. They
Speaker 1: played a little fast and loose. They also found some
Speaker 1: older They really dug up all the dirt they could
Speaker 1: find on him, And they found a guy who had
Speaker 1: sailed with Bram on a ship called the White Wings,
Speaker 1: who said that Bram had told him or suggested to him,
Speaker 1: that they should kill the captain, take the ship, sell
Speaker 1: the ship and the cargo. Apparently he told the same sailor.
Speaker 1: I think this guy's name was Nicholas Alstill, the same guy,
Speaker 1: that he had been a wardership called the Twilight, and
Speaker 1: he had scuttled the ship, he delivered the cargo, collected
Speaker 1: the money, scuttled the ship, and then told the owners
Speaker 1: that well, I'm sorry the money went down with the ship.
Speaker 1: It was all I could do to get to the lifeboats. Sorry, sorry, dudes,
Speaker 1: but he kept them. They confessed this to this Nicholas guy.
Speaker 1: Leaves me to think that Bram had a big mouth.
Speaker 1: They had other witnesses. I won't list him all. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's It's obviously he wasn't afraid to just
Speaker 1: talk in front of other people, based on the statements
Speaker 1: he made about the captain in the second mate and
Speaker 1: the captain's wife story. Yeah, I don't know. He might
Speaker 1: have said. He might have said I want to kill
Speaker 1: and then the name of all every other guy on
Speaker 1: the crew came out of his mouth. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: some people who just want around going, oh, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna kill that guy because they're frustrated with him, simple
Speaker 1: as that doesn't necessarily mean no, no, yeah, I never
Speaker 1: do that at all. But again, I wasn't there. I
Speaker 1: didn't wasn't I could not observe his demeanor or that
Speaker 1: he might have been a really really he might have
Speaker 1: been a real scumbag, which still doesn't mean he did it,
Speaker 1: but at least it makes it a little more incredible.
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell. The only thing I know about
Speaker 1: Bram is what I've read about him a little bit,
Speaker 1: and I've seen one photograph of him. He looks like, well, right,
Speaker 1: he doesn't look like a scumbag. Have you seen the
Speaker 1: drawing of him? Now? Oh, it's hilarious because it looks
Speaker 1: nothing like his photo. It was like a newspaper thing
Speaker 1: for the trial. Yeah, because in his photo he's got
Speaker 1: a hairline similar to mine, you know, it's very high,
Speaker 1: and he's got the bald spot in the back and
Speaker 1: no facial hair or um. And then you see the
Speaker 1: drawing of him and he's got what looks like a
Speaker 1: full quoff of hair and the mustache, the big mustache
Speaker 1: of the time, and for something like that's weird. Wait,
Speaker 1: and I started comparing him. That's when I realized, like,
Speaker 1: I really think that somebody Internet mislabeled something and it
Speaker 1: has just been just spread everywhere. Oh yeah, that's never happened. Huh,
Speaker 1: that's that's gotta be it. I guess even back in
Speaker 1: those days, I didn't take that much artistic license. I
Speaker 1: don't think usually. Yeah, but back to our trial. Uh,
Speaker 1: they put him on trial later that year. They were
Speaker 1: quick about things and let Charlie Brown go pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: They kind of what did They can't think of the
Speaker 1: terminology that the wording that they use, but essentially they
Speaker 1: can sidered him a idiot um in terms of that
Speaker 1: was you know, well, he's a little mentally unsound and
Speaker 1: he's obviously not smart enough to pull this off, like
Speaker 1: maybe we should take him to the sanitarium so he
Speaker 1: didn't hurt himself. Kind of, he's too dumb to pull
Speaker 1: this off on his own. Yeah yeah, And that's that's
Speaker 1: one of the ways I get away with murder by
Speaker 1: the way I played dumb. Yeah, you're good at it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, good at murder. Yeah, alright, screw y'all. Needless
Speaker 1: just say Bram was convicted of murder, because that's another
Speaker 1: thing this happens today still is you know, their juries
Speaker 1: are inclined to and there's been a heinous crime that
Speaker 1: somebody's got to be guilty, somebody's gotta pay for. Unfortunately
Speaker 1: that happened in this case, I think. But the trial
Speaker 1: was set aside in the technicality, and so he got retried.
Speaker 1: He was convicted again. And by the way, all the
Speaker 1: first trial he was sentenced to hang and uh were
Speaker 1: the good old gallows. Yeah yeah, he never actually did
Speaker 1: get strung up. He's I think about fifteen years in prison.
Speaker 1: And as I said, there was a woman who wrote
Speaker 1: a book about this, which was apparently read by none
Speaker 1: other than Teddy Roosevelt, remember him, Yeah, President guy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and Teddy was not president at the time. But
Speaker 1: apparently he was sort of sort of taken with the
Speaker 1: case of Thomas Bram and took it up with President
Speaker 1: Woodward Wilson and got Wilson to pardon him. So he
Speaker 1: got a pardon from Wilson and got out of jail.
Speaker 1: Or no, no, it would have been like, oh god,
Speaker 1: I don't remember the year he actually got busted out
Speaker 1: of jail, but oh six. Didn't Wilson get elected in
Speaker 1: nineteen Uh no, I would have been even year. No,
Speaker 1: he he was the president. He was office from March
Speaker 1: fourth in eighteen thirteen to March fourth, nineteen one. Okay,
Speaker 1: so he was elected in nineteen twelve. So so the
Speaker 1: murders happened in ninety six, So we go, oh six
Speaker 1: to eleven. Well, yeah, god, how long that's really well,
Speaker 1: the time the years on this one don't add up
Speaker 1: for the term he served. I guess his trial took
Speaker 1: several years. Yeah, I said that in the fifteen years
Speaker 1: that I've read about it, they served in jail probably
Speaker 1: included the time he spent in jail during and between
Speaker 1: trials and all that stuff. They could have been the
Speaker 1: whole accumulated, you know, time he spent behind bars. Well,
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, he's say some time. I mean, in fairness,
Speaker 1: I don't know where he served, But Woodrow Wilson was
Speaker 1: also the governor of New Jersey from nineteen eleven to
Speaker 1: nineteen thirteen, and governors can part in. Wilson was president
Speaker 1: when had happened, Yeah, it wasn't was president, I don't believe,
Speaker 1: and that since the ships sailed out of Boston, I
Speaker 1: don't think it would have had any jurisdiction. I just
Speaker 1: didn't know where the trial was happening. I don't know
Speaker 1: where any of that was happening. I think it was Boston. Yeah,
Speaker 1: never mind, really went way off of the path all
Speaker 1: about Woodward Wilson, which is pretty cool because nobody actually
Speaker 1: ever talks about Woodrow Wilson anymore. Yeah, well people should
Speaker 1: talk about Wilson. I'll tell you why and it. We'll
Speaker 1: do that for another episode though. But as far as
Speaker 1: Bram goes, you know, he may very well have been
Speaker 1: the killer. I don't think the evidence was this positive
Speaker 1: in my mind. But if it wasn't him, unless assume
Speaker 1: for a second then it wasn't, well then who could
Speaker 1: have been time for some series maybe, but for nine
Speaker 1: other people. Yeah, about that well, not nine. Let's nine
Speaker 1: crew members in one passenger and one passengers. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: the second mate second mate eight kind of sam makes
Speaker 1: it seven. So seven? Okay, okay, yeah, anyway, but before
Speaker 1: we get into our theories and our suspects, let's take
Speaker 1: a Please tell me you're not going to show me
Speaker 1: an ax. Yeah, good idea. I'll show you my hatchet compromise.
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Speaker 1: non Euclidean geometry. Somehow you're supposed to have known how
Speaker 1: to pick out the best ones at the store, which
Speaker 1: was mind boggling. Then you had to know the base
Speaker 1: formula for combining them as well as the proper order.
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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about our suspects. So many good ones.
Speaker 1: So we got, of course Bram, who was the guy
Speaker 1: who actually got convicted, who really I suppose could have
Speaker 1: done it. My only problem with Bram is a suspect,
Speaker 1: is that well, so he murders that, he murders the
Speaker 1: captain's wife, and of course then um Lester Monks wakes up.
Speaker 1: Of course, it takes him a moment or two to
Speaker 1: get his revolver and loaded and everything, and then he
Speaker 1: leaves and go spice the captain and goes up to
Speaker 1: the deck and finds Bram on deck. So, Ram, Ram,
Speaker 1: if you if you did actually murdered the wife last,
Speaker 1: if he murdered the wife last, then would he have
Speaker 1: had enough time to change his clothes and clean himself up,
Speaker 1: get all the blood off him and everything, and then
Speaker 1: get up on deck and then for Lester Monks to
Speaker 1: come up on deck to find him there? Would you
Speaker 1: have had enough time? Do you think? Yeah? He may have.
Speaker 1: I mean, because we don't know how much time Monks
Speaker 1: actually spent with the captain when he first found him
Speaker 1: and yeah, or how much he spent time he spent
Speaker 1: with the captain's wife staring at her dead in the room. Usually,
Speaker 1: if I'm in a room with a chopped up, mangled body,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't carry Okay. So here's the thing, though,
Speaker 1: I I don't think that for reasons. I know we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about that Monks was moving all that
Speaker 1: fast coherently, and so I could see this taking several minutes.
Speaker 1: And let's just think. Okay, so let's say Bram did
Speaker 1: it and he's wearing a coat let's just say he's
Speaker 1: got some kind of big overcoat smock thing on. So
Speaker 1: he walks out on deck. There's a bucket of water
Speaker 1: out there, so all he's gotta do is take off
Speaker 1: his big jacket and scrub his hands in his face
Speaker 1: in a random dirty water bucket that is outside. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I suppose if he planned it really carefully. I mean,
Speaker 1: they actually have extra canvas for patching sales and stuff
Speaker 1: like that on a ship. So something. Here's a question
Speaker 1: is if he made himself a jacket that he then
Speaker 1: threw overboard, why didn't he also throw the axe overboard?
Speaker 1: That's a good question. Maybe he screwed up. He could
Speaker 1: have literally dropped it and when he because I think
Speaker 1: he's the one who frowned the axe. He could have
Speaker 1: very he could have had that internal monologue of oh crap,
Speaker 1: that didn't go over with my my killing jacket, I
Speaker 1: gotta get rid of this thing? Should I get rid
Speaker 1: of this? Oh? No, splitch. He could have been that.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's it. I think he's just too
Speaker 1: easy of a he's the pretty easy Yeah. It's a favorite.
Speaker 1: You know, you might even think of as a fall guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in a way, So Okay, Yeah, so Bran could have
Speaker 1: done it, um, you know, but let's look at a
Speaker 1: few other people. Of course, we've got Charlie Brown. Charlie Brown,
Speaker 1: he tells this really strange story about how he saw
Speaker 1: brand murder the captain but just you know, didn't think
Speaker 1: to tell anybody about it because then somebody pulled the
Speaker 1: football out from him and he fell. Yeah. So I
Speaker 1: mean his story is like and it could have just
Speaker 1: been like, well, you know, after he got locked in
Speaker 1: the cabin and he's the chief suspect, he wanted to
Speaker 1: shift the blame on anybody you possibly could. But still,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, he sees the captain being chopped
Speaker 1: to pieces, and then shortly after he hears the little
Speaker 1: captain's wife screaming, and he, just like Bob, keeps steering
Speaker 1: the boat. Got to make sure this boat doesn't thebergs around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so even and the stays at the station. But
Speaker 1: then after he gets off the station at two am,
Speaker 1: he still doesn't go talk to anybody about it. Yeah, which,
Speaker 1: you know, what you never see anywhere is he may
Speaker 1: be telling the truth. He may have seen who did it,
Speaker 1: but he may have been their lookout, or he may
Speaker 1: have decided that he could extort a little cash out
Speaker 1: of him by threatening to tell. So he sees, let's
Speaker 1: just say it's it's Bram, or let's say it's Slice
Speaker 1: just because I like his name. So he sees, he
Speaker 1: sees Slice doing the slice and in the chopping, and says, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say anything, And then later on, hey,
Speaker 1: Mr Slice, just so you know, I saw you. I
Speaker 1: saw you doing some slicing and it looks like Mr
Speaker 1: Bram there through the acts away, so I know you're
Speaker 1: not gonna be able to use it on me. But
Speaker 1: when we keep mush ut mm hmmmmmmmmmmm that you you
Speaker 1: even said yourself that there were other ways to kill
Speaker 1: someone on that ship. I understand that. But he may
Speaker 1: have just you know what, people, people who commit who
Speaker 1: is commit black all the right way to say that,
Speaker 1: sure there's a crime. People who commit blackmail, they don't
Speaker 1: always I mean, people see people killing other people and
Speaker 1: try to get cash out of him for it, never
Speaker 1: worrying that that person is going to actually do the
Speaker 1: same thing to them. So he may have decided, oh, no,
Speaker 1: there's too much there's too much activity. He won't come
Speaker 1: after me. Yeah, it's true, maybe, but yeah, it's on
Speaker 1: TV all the time. Yeah, TV. But the thing the
Speaker 1: problem I have with the story too, though, is that
Speaker 1: from where the wheel was in the window and the
Speaker 1: captain's cop so the captain essentially his legs would have
Speaker 1: been pointed aft towards the stern of the boat in
Speaker 1: the front. Yeah, towards the stern. Yeah, so this is
Speaker 1: like I'm looking at it. Yeah, so this is like
Speaker 1: aft this way right, which is the front? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: uh no after four there's four and there's apts. So
Speaker 1: why is the wheel I thought the wheel would was
Speaker 1: in front of this entire cabin structure so that he
Speaker 1: could see. Now, typically they had the wheel towards the
Speaker 1: back because that's it's it's it's those to the rudder
Speaker 1: as possible. So and on sailor ships usually the wheel
Speaker 1: is in the back of the boat. Yeah. So so,
Speaker 1: but anyway, the captain is from what the captain's legs
Speaker 1: would have been, and Andry Slice when he was steering earlier,
Speaker 1: he said he saw the captain's legs through the window,
Speaker 1: only his legs from the feet to the knees up
Speaker 1: because they were cut off. Yeah they were. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: could have been cut off or it could have been
Speaker 1: that from that angle his that's the only part of
Speaker 1: you could see without actually leaving. Yeah, without actually leaving
Speaker 1: a station and moving to the right and down. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: From the station, all I could see was from the
Speaker 1: knee on down. And now I can't imagine if I
Speaker 1: was going to chop somebody who was sleeping laying down,
Speaker 1: I was gonna chopped up with an AX. And remember
Speaker 1: he was hit on the head. If you were going
Speaker 1: to approach somebody laying down to hit him on the
Speaker 1: head with an ax, would you go around to the end,
Speaker 1: to the end of where he's laying out where his
Speaker 1: feet are, and chopped from there, or would you stand
Speaker 1: next to him and chop In other words, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: be anywhere close to the bottom of his body. He
Speaker 1: would be standing next to his his head. Yeah and
Speaker 1: so and so, Bram, if he truly did this, he
Speaker 1: should have been out of sight Charlie Brown. And unless
Speaker 1: Charlie Brown was Brown window, unless he left his station
Speaker 1: and looked through that she could have because I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess an argument of it being Bram, it's you know,
Speaker 1: he said, well, how could he have seen me? Like?
Speaker 1: Where was he that he could have seen me, and
Speaker 1: that would be the logical step of that guy was
Speaker 1: supposed to be at the wheel the entire time, and
Speaker 1: I know that if you're standing at the wheel, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to see me chop chopping this
Speaker 1: guy's head open. Yeah, unless you weren't there. So where
Speaker 1: was he? What was he doing? Why did you see me?
Speaker 1: That makes sense. On the other hand, it's entirely possible
Speaker 1: that that, you know, Charlie Brown, for example, could have
Speaker 1: if he really saw him. It could have been he
Speaker 1: maybe tied the wheel off just for a moment or two,
Speaker 1: so you go over the rail and urinate. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: turned around and saw him, and then turned around saw
Speaker 1: what was going on in there. But but that makes
Speaker 1: it just as likely that Slice could have done it
Speaker 1: between the hours of eight and twelve. He could have
Speaker 1: killed the captain and the second mate because nobody else
Speaker 1: was around, and he lashed the wheel and then later
Speaker 1: on decided he was going to take, you know, finish
Speaker 1: off the captain's wife. May I mean, yeah, he yes,
Speaker 1: his name is Slice after all. So yeah, but anyway,
Speaker 1: Charlie Brown, you were saying he was kind of like simple,
Speaker 1: I think one of the words that. Yeah, so even
Speaker 1: though his story really frankly doesn't add up for me
Speaker 1: at all. He might have just been trying to get
Speaker 1: himself out of trouble or ye know that that and
Speaker 1: more than one case has been entirely based upon the
Speaker 1: story of a unfit individual. Yeah, yeah, And and again
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to say what anybody's motive would have been. Bram.
Speaker 1: I don't know what his motive exactly would have been.
Speaker 1: He apparently didn't like anybody on the crew, didn't seem
Speaker 1: to or at least didn't like the captain. It didn't
Speaker 1: like the second mate. But you know, there's lots of
Speaker 1: people I've done that I haven't liked that you know,
Speaker 1: haven't murdered them. So Charlie Brown, even you know, even
Speaker 1: less motive to kill somebody's. Let's move to our next suspect,
Speaker 1: who is Lester Monks. Yeah, because just what the hell
Speaker 1: was he doing there anyway? I mean, really though we
Speaker 1: know what he was doing there, But his doctor told
Speaker 1: him that he needed to go on this voyage to
Speaker 1: get sea air because because he was ill. But I mean,
Speaker 1: when they looked in his luggage, his luggage was nothing
Speaker 1: but booze. Sixty bottles of beer, a bottle of I
Speaker 1: think it was whiskey and jin or scotch. I mean,
Speaker 1: like the guy was packing a boatload of booze literally
Speaker 1: actually for a long sea journey. That's not a huge
Speaker 1: amount of But but what I'm getting at is the
Speaker 1: fact that I have a suspicion and that he had
Speaker 1: a drinking problem. And his doctor said, if you go
Speaker 1: on a sea voyage, you can dry out. You have
Speaker 1: nowhere to go, you can't get the booze. But he
Speaker 1: went about it in such a way He's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'll just take my booze with me. I haven't. I
Speaker 1: can just I just spread it over the journey. It'll
Speaker 1: be fun. Yeah. But like here's a question, why this ship?
Speaker 1: Why not a ship that was made for passengers, Like
Speaker 1: why not book passage? He spent all his money on beer. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that if you get you can actually and
Speaker 1: there's people today even you travel on freighters because it's cheaper. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and yeah, you can actually travel all over the world
Speaker 1: on freighters. Maybe that I've actually considered it myself, I
Speaker 1: just haven't gotten around to doing it. He chose this one.
Speaker 1: He could have chosen any ship. But even me even
Speaker 1: more than that, like, I don't know that necessarily history
Speaker 1: ads up so well, it doesn't because I mean, here's
Speaker 1: Here's one of the things that's interesting to me is
Speaker 1: that he was in the passengers room, which is immediately
Speaker 1: after the captain's and where the where the captain's wife
Speaker 1: was murdered. It's between where the captain was murdered and
Speaker 1: the captain's wife was murdered exactly. And so he's he's
Speaker 1: awakened by a scream. He's a little disoriented, so he
Speaker 1: sits up, and then here's a second scream. So he
Speaker 1: exits the room with his revolver and into the main cabin,
Speaker 1: turns left towards the chart room, where the captain was.
Speaker 1: But if he heard that the captain's wife screaming in
Speaker 1: her stateroom, that's just on the other side of the
Speaker 1: bulkhead from his cabin, So he couldn't have been I
Speaker 1: don't think confused about the direction the scream was coming from.
Speaker 1: Why did he turn left towards where the captain was
Speaker 1: and not right towards where the captain's If he had
Speaker 1: a couple of drinks, his his sense of direction might
Speaker 1: have been a little fouled up. I know that, but
Speaker 1: that's something that puzzles me. And I mean, if he
Speaker 1: if he wanted to go to the chart room, is
Speaker 1: that what you're calling it? Joe said, correct, If he
Speaker 1: wanted to go to the chart room, why didn't he
Speaker 1: just go out the door of his room that led
Speaker 1: directly into the chart room instead of going into the
Speaker 1: main could have been bolted? Well, that could have been.
Speaker 1: I mean, there might actually be there and then there
Speaker 1: is there is another door there. Yeah, it's it's true.
Speaker 1: The way the story was that I read about it
Speaker 1: might have been actually confusingly worded, and maybe he did
Speaker 1: exit directly into the chart room and not maybe it
Speaker 1: was bolted or it could have been bolted too. I
Speaker 1: don't know that if you if you were the captain
Speaker 1: and you had a chart room that opened directly into
Speaker 1: a passengers room, I don't know that you would necessarily
Speaker 1: want a door direct and I don't necessarily know as
Speaker 1: a passenger you would just want the captain to be
Speaker 1: able to walk into your room like whenever. Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like those extra doors in hotel rooms
Speaker 1: and interconnected interconnect them. Yeah, yeah, they're usually locked. Usually yeah,
Speaker 1: locked solid. But it's still, you know, no matter how
Speaker 1: many doors they were there, I still have to wonder
Speaker 1: why he went the opposite direction from where the screams
Speaker 1: were coming, you know. And that's that's one of the things.
Speaker 1: And the next thing I wonder about, it's weird acoustics,
Speaker 1: possibly know. The other thing I'll say is that it
Speaker 1: is never as far as I know, maybe you guys
Speaker 1: do know. I didn't see it specified that it was
Speaker 1: a woman screaming. I thought he just heard screaming. And
Speaker 1: dudes scream too when they're getting hacked to crap for sure.
Speaker 1: But but still so it's possible to me that he
Speaker 1: did go in the direction the captain captain screaming. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would actually make sense in terms he was still dying,
Speaker 1: captain was still dying yet the wife had obviously already expired.
Speaker 1: But but the next stort thing of the story that
Speaker 1: makes no sense to me is that he finds the
Speaker 1: captain gurgling and dying in the darkness, and the first
Speaker 1: thing he does is goes to find his wife to
Speaker 1: help it. It's a puzzle to me why he would
Speaker 1: do that, as opposed to going to find the first
Speaker 1: mate of the second mate. He may I mean, he's
Speaker 1: a passenger. He may have no idea what anybody's edule
Speaker 1: is on the ship. He's been on the boat for
Speaker 1: like ten days. Now you should know you you're you're
Speaker 1: assuming that servant individuals. That's true. But also the schedules
Speaker 1: don't matter. You know, when you found somebody who's been murdered,
Speaker 1: you can we can wake people up. Well, know what
Speaker 1: I mean is he may not have known if they
Speaker 1: were in their cabins or if they were about their duties.
Speaker 1: And he knows that the captain's wife will be in
Speaker 1: her room because she wasn't in the room. What's the
Speaker 1: point of getting the captain's wife. Do you want to
Speaker 1: get somebody in authority? You don't want to get the
Speaker 1: captain's wife. Well, Frank, captain's wife has authority over the
Speaker 1: captain right. Uh. He may have thought that she would
Speaker 1: have been able to help the most because she may
Speaker 1: have had some sort of training. They may have talked
Speaker 1: about she may have you know, served as a nurse
Speaker 1: or something like that at one point. Who knows, right, Also,
Speaker 1: young men often seek out mother figures in situations like this,
Speaker 1: Right there, like, oh my god, I gotta find mom
Speaker 1: because she's going to know what to do. And fourthly,
Speaker 1: her room is the closest. It is pretty close the
Speaker 1: first door you come to, other than his own room.
Speaker 1: But it still makes no sense to me. But here's
Speaker 1: the next thing about it about his story that makes
Speaker 1: no sense to me, uh, and that is he has
Speaker 1: he Ha's aft and had a passageway aft and and
Speaker 1: then he comes to us, comes to a ladder that
Speaker 1: takes him up to the deck where he meets with more.
Speaker 1: He beats Bram correct well. That passageway. It takes him
Speaker 1: right past the first mates and second mates cabins, and
Speaker 1: he did not actually stop and knock on either one
Speaker 1: of their doors. And it turns out that when he
Speaker 1: passed the second mads room cabin by the way, that
Speaker 1: that door was actually a jar. It wasn't wide open,
Speaker 1: but it was a jar, and he just walked right
Speaker 1: past it. And that's the only thing I could attribute
Speaker 1: that to. All I can say is there's that. There's
Speaker 1: the other things about monks that are a little disturbing
Speaker 1: to me, is that a lot of the incriminating information
Speaker 1: that we found and heard about Brams and his trial
Speaker 1: came from Monks. Yeah, I actually, despite my argument against you,
Speaker 1: I think monkst it. Yeah, I think I think it's
Speaker 1: entirely possible that Monks was actually like a very clever,
Speaker 1: little psychotic serial killer. So I who just thought, you know,
Speaker 1: let's see if I can just you know, sign onto
Speaker 1: a ship murder some people and pended on somebody else
Speaker 1: and didn't write a book about And let's let's just
Speaker 1: see how good I am if I cannot just get
Speaker 1: away with it, but see somebody else hang for it,
Speaker 1: or he was just like an awful drunk. It will,
Speaker 1: but it would explain the question you asked earlier, which is,
Speaker 1: how would anybody have had time to change and clean up?
Speaker 1: He would have had time, he would have had He
Speaker 1: totally would have been the guy because also right he
Speaker 1: he was the only one who heard the screams Charlie Brown.
Speaker 1: Charlie Brown claims that but then Charlie, but Charlie Brown
Speaker 1: only said he heard screams after yeah, long after Yeah,
Speaker 1: he didn't. So whether Charlie actually actually heard a scream
Speaker 1: or not, I don't know. And so there might there
Speaker 1: might not have been a scream. So he was the
Speaker 1: only one who heard the scream. So yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think he didn't definitely. I mean if you look at
Speaker 1: say Bram Bram Bram, like you said, maybe he could
Speaker 1: have done it. It It would have had to be it
Speaker 1: would have had to have been really well planned, some
Speaker 1: good preparations at a time. But like I said, I mean,
Speaker 1: Monks had all the time in the world. He really
Speaker 1: could have done it. So yeah, Monks, he's one of
Speaker 1: my friends. He did it. Yeah. Let me let me
Speaker 1: toss out another one though, which is that everybody did it.
Speaker 1: Because if all you guys have all read Murder on
Speaker 1: the orin Express right and where it turns out that
Speaker 1: everybody had a motive to kill the guy and they
Speaker 1: all participated, and so maybe that's what it was. That's
Speaker 1: a lot of motives, true mutiny. Yeah, well it's a
Speaker 1: it's a you know, it could have been that the
Speaker 1: wife was just collateral damage. And so what's the second mate? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and although again like why they were all three in
Speaker 1: separate rooms, but okay, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: what rushed the chain of command is what you do.
Speaker 1: You rushed the captain, you rushed his wife. And because
Speaker 1: the first mate is in on it. You rushed the
Speaker 1: second mate who has said I would not you know,
Speaker 1: let's just presume he said I wouldn't take part in that.
Speaker 1: You're crazy. So you you decimate the chain of command
Speaker 1: and you can insert yourself in there. But at that point,
Speaker 1: why didn't they just go rogue instead of going home?
Speaker 1: Why didn't they continue with the journey or become pirates
Speaker 1: or something, you know, like that's that's the problem with
Speaker 1: this theory is that they did it and then they
Speaker 1: chickened out. Yeah, that could have They could have concocted
Speaker 1: some sort of a story, like there was an outbreak
Speaker 1: of influenza the captain. Yeah, actually right, Yeah, so they
Speaker 1: could have. I mean people died on on long voyages
Speaker 1: back in those days. They got swept overboard and drowned,
Speaker 1: or they got sick and died. I mean that things
Speaker 1: could happen. If they really were doing that, then they
Speaker 1: just had to bury them at sea. Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: whole thing went away. Just toss them all overboard. And
Speaker 1: then if everybody's story is the exact same, no problem. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty much. Charlie Brown was such an idiot he kept
Speaker 1: screwing up the story. Yeah, then they knew they were sunk.
Speaker 1: Damn Charlie Brown anyway, But um, I tend to say
Speaker 1: tend to I love conspiracies, but I don't usually believe
Speaker 1: in him because usually somebody's stupid and somebody talks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think monks did. It was that it was Time Traveler.
Speaker 1: Could have been, because it turns out this load of
Speaker 1: wood was going to create what would eventually become the
Speaker 1: Nazi compound in Argentina in the forties. For hiding Nazis
Speaker 1: and not doing that, it didn't allow them somewhere to go,
Speaker 1: so then they were eventually found sent Nuremberg. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: could have been. It could have been. I'm thinking of
Speaker 1: the Illuminati, because the whole thing is actually just the
Speaker 1: way to get Bram killed. They didn't want to get
Speaker 1: their hands duty by killing him. They wanted to be
Speaker 1: strung up by the stage, so they instead they murdered
Speaker 1: three other people have framed him for it. Yeah that
Speaker 1: sounds about right, Yeah, totally right. Well, it could be
Speaker 1: they made they were trying to make him a martyr.
Speaker 1: This wasn't there wait wait, wait, there there was stuff
Speaker 1: about Bram saying he was a Mason and saying things
Speaker 1: that were supposedly Mason code of I'm in distress. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm the I'm the son of a mother who has
Speaker 1: already passed away. It was some phrase was recorded that
Speaker 1: that was a coded message from one person to the
Speaker 1: other that I need help. Well, that's why what drow Wilson.
Speaker 1: Pardon him too, because he was also a Mason, right,
Speaker 1: that could have been I don't know what was Wilson, Mason,
Speaker 1: a lot of more. Yeah, Yeah, Wilson was a fun guy.
Speaker 1: He was also probably an elk so shriner. Yeah, any
Speaker 1: other theories there's to be in a triangle. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think that. Yeah, it's sort of like sort of
Speaker 1: exercise this mojo on somebody and made him like murder
Speaker 1: these three people. And yeah, so of course the cracking
Speaker 1: and choppy. We haven't blamed anything on Chuppy for a while,
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, I don't think chuppy does so well
Speaker 1: in open water cheap, it's not really cheap. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: there's no goats. Yeah, so anyway, this is gonna remain
Speaker 1: a kind of a mystery, I think. But I think
Speaker 1: I agree with Devon and maybe Steve about about Monks.
Speaker 1: I think it was probably him. Yeah, yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: mean it's it's but it's also entirely possible that it
Speaker 1: was one of the other regular semen who we never
Speaker 1: talked about, who had some acts to grind no pun
Speaker 1: in and did a good enough job that nobody saw
Speaker 1: him and had plenty of time to clean up. But
Speaker 1: because remember that Bram and Monks sat on back until
Speaker 1: the sun rose, which was ours. So I would give
Speaker 1: that person, whoever, that unnamed person is plenty of time
Speaker 1: to change the clothes and wash up and hide away
Speaker 1: their their bloody gear. Completely possible. Yeah, it could have been.
Speaker 1: It could have been one of these things too, where
Speaker 1: somebody in the crew, like bribed the second mate to
Speaker 1: to kill the captain and his wife and then and
Speaker 1: then killed the second mate rather than pay him. Could
Speaker 1: have been that. You know, there's all sorts of possible forever.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah we could. Well that's what we do, yes,
Speaker 1: irresponsible conjecture, Yes pretty much. Yeah, so we've got a
Speaker 1: tagline somewhere. Yeah, I think we will, probably, but more
Speaker 1: on that later. Okay, time for a little housekeeping before
Speaker 1: we go. First off, you're probably wondering how to get
Speaker 1: ahold of us, especially, want to send me fan mail. Yeah,
Speaker 1: our email is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com,
Speaker 1: or you can send it by steamship. Yeah, that too,
Speaker 1: or morse, there's always Morse. We have a website Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast dot com where you can you can find
Speaker 1: our episodes. You can download them and listen to them.
Speaker 1: And we've got links to find merch all kinds of
Speaker 1: fun stuff like t shirts and mugs and stickers. Uh.
Speaker 1: You can also find us on iTunes where you can subscribe.
Speaker 1: You can rate us, give us a review, hopefully a
Speaker 1: good review at a high rating. And oh yeah, and
Speaker 1: and downboat all the one star ratings, would you please? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you can stream us. There's what, there's U, there's Stitcher,
Speaker 1: and there's biggle play. There's pod being which you yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you can you can find us somewhere out there.
Speaker 1: And social media, we're we're on Facebook. Of course, we
Speaker 1: have a group. We have a page. So you joined
Speaker 1: the group and like the page and yeah, and they'll
Speaker 1: try to friend us, you know, it's not a friend thing.
Speaker 1: Joined the group your friends. Yeah, we are your friends friends,
Speaker 1: which is we're not Facebook friends. Yeah. Twitter, Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: without the G and of course we have a supreddit
Speaker 1: thinking sideways with It's all kinds of hot action, Devin.
Speaker 1: What's going on on the subreddit? Nothing? Okay, there you
Speaker 1: go get out there right now. You're missing out. That's
Speaker 1: all right. Well that's it for next week, so I
Speaker 1: can't think of anything maritiming, so goodbye. We should probably
Speaker 1: just chop this one off right here. Okay. I was
Speaker 1: going to do my schooner thing, but that's okay, you
Speaker 1: already did that. It's a schooner too, sooner, you dumb kid.
Speaker 1: That's a sailboat. Sailboat is a schooner. You know what
Speaker 1: these buddy isn't real. I am totally that guy over there.
Speaker 1: It's just a guy in a suit. Okay,