WEBVTT - Can You Change Someone’s Mind? – Lab 075 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.400 You know, TT, we're always talking about what we believe. Yes, 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:06.720 I think one of my favorite things that you say 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.319 is it's okay to change your mind. It's okay to 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:14.120 say you don't know and to start something new, unlearn, relearn. Yes, 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.000 and I think it's time to bring that message to 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.840 the masses. I'm TT, and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:49.280 This is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.760 podcast that mixes hardcore science, pop culture, and a healthy 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:56.280 dose of friendship. This week, we're talking all about changing 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.480 our minds. Specifically, we really want to know more about 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.400 how we may make up our minds, what happens when 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.559 someone tries to change it, and why we often see 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.920 such strong reactions when people are trying to convince one 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:23.360 another of something different. Let's get into the recitation. So 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.800 what do we know? I know, at least anecdotally, it 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.880 feels like people's minds can't be changed. They're in the 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.880 comment section acting a fool marker on the Twitter threads. 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.160 I told you so, right, it's wild. I mean, social 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.440 media is a prime example of people not changing their minds. 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:42.440 It doesn't matter how many facts you bring, there's still 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.600 gonna be people who are very adamant about their perspective. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:48.920 That's the nice way I'm going to say it. There's 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.840 always been this type of polarization around really big issues 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.840 that are really complex and loaded, but it feels like 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.440 now we're even seeing this same type of energy. People 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.560 are bringing a lot of smoke for small issues that 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.760 normally we would say we're trivial. People are just grouping 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:08.680 up in a way that I feel like we didn't 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:10.520 used to see right, And I don't know what that 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.400 says about us. I don't know what it says about 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.080 our brains. It's like something is happening to us. And 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.840 we talked about this in an earlier episode Lab thirty 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.200 seven with doctors Hofer and Sinatra about how even when 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.840 folks are presented with information that is actually true, they 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.560 will still decide to believe the opposite. And we also 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.640 know that a major part of how people get the 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.960 misinformation and choose to stick to it is related to 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.600 our cognitive biases. Doctor Hofer and doctor Sinatra told us 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:42.600 that too, And so it feels like all that stuff 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.240 is somehow kind of related to changing minds. So what 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.560 do we want to know about changing minds. I want 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.000 to know what is happening in the brain when we 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.799 change our minds, both over time and in the moment. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.959 What is actually going on? The superhero of me wants 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.840 to know how to change someone's mind. I want to 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.360 know how to do it. How do I breach folks 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.600 who are seeing things differently. I want to know what 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:12.600 the science says about shifts in public opinion like widespread 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.840 beliefs and regional norms, and when folks are refusing to 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:21.320 change what's happening there, even when they sometimes have the 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.880 evidence that they should change. It's a lot to learn. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:37.960 Let's jump into the dissections. Our guest for today's lab 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:39.120 is David McRaney. 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.000 I'm David McCraney. I'm a science journalist and author and podcaster, 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.840 if that's even a thing people say anymore. 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.320 David has written several books, including You're Not So Smart, 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.760 which is also the name of his podcast. His latest 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.760 book is called How Minds Change. But before we can 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.560 talk about how our minds change, let's talk about what 0:03:57.640 --> 0:03:59.840 happens when we make up our minds in the first place. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.560 And this has to do with epistemology. Epistemology is the 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.880 theory of knowledge. It's a branch of philosophy that is 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.880 all about what it means to know something, and it's 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.520 a lot of what David writes about in his book. Now, 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.920 epistemology is really complex. Our brains are constantly processing new information, 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.120 and we touched on this in some earlier labs. You 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.680 might remember this with Lab ten of lie to me 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.080 how people can have totally different memories of the same event, 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.680 or Lab fourteen in the Art of the con with 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.400 doctor Lsana Harris, where we talked about scams and why 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.840 we fall for them. So before we jump into changing 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:40.480 our minds, let's really construct how we make up our minds. Well, 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.960 the first thing to consider is how our brains are 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.599 working to decide what we know in the first place. 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.840 In some of our earlier episodes and in David's book, 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.960 there's the understanding that our brain is never as it 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:58.120 was before. It's constantly changing. With each interaction. Neurons are firing, 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.960 creating new connections or reinforcing old ones, physically changing the 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.239 brain from one interaction to the next, and that's what's 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.040 called neuroplasticity. 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.560 The brain is this thing that it creates a virtual 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.599 reality in your head, and that virtual reality gets more 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.440 and more complex over time as we grow up and 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.560 experience things and learn things and start forming identities and 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:22.960 group identities. 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.280 And so when we consider how we experience and learn things, 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:30.520 David turned to twentieth century psychologist Jean Piget PSA is 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:35.000 considered the father of what is known as genetic epistemology, 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:39.479 and this type of epistemology is basically studying knowledge that 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:44.560 centers your interaction with the environment. Pha developed two concepts 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.479 which are really helpful in understanding what's going on when 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.640 we change our minds or resist changing. Those concepts are 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.240 assimilation and accommodation. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:59.800 Assimilation is when something's ambiguous or uncertain or unfamiliar. We 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.200 we often will try to interpret it as just another 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.360 example of what we already think, feel, and believe. Often 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:10.120 is confirmation that we were right already. Accommodation is when 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:14.440 something keeps coming around, like the counter attitudeinal counterfactual information. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.120 Just so many anomalies build up that you must accommodate 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:19.000 to make sense of them. 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.800 David provides a great example of both assimilation and accommodation. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.680 What a child sees a dog for the first time. 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:28.960 Oftentimes they'll point at it and say, you know, what 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.280 is that and you say a dog, and in their 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.440 minds something categorical happens, something like non human walks on 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.320 four legs, furry, has a tail, it's alive. That's a dog. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.800 But if you see a dog that's a different color, 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.320 it still fits what you know. It's furry, it walks 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.880 on four legs, it's got a tail, But now you 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.120 have this additional layer of oh, it can be another color. 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:54.240 But David says, sometimes it's more than just adding that 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.400 single layer, and you have to bring in a lot 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.400 more information. Let's say you see something else that fits 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.000 your example of what a dog could be. 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.200 So then later on when they see a horse, they 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.120 might point out it and go dog, or they might 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.839 say big dog. If they're a really sort of advanced child, 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.240 that's assimilation, Like this seems to fit with what I understand. 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.480 It's walks on four legs, it's furry, it's an animal, 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.960 it's live a dog, right, And you're like, no, no, 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.840 that's horse, and so they have must accommodate to bring 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:21.960 that into their model. 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.760 Here we get an example of both assimilation and accommodation. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.720 The interesting thing is that it's always happening, and we're 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.280 doing that right now in this podcast. We're always updating 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.040 our model of reality. And the older we get, the 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:40.360 more information we consume, the more complex this process gets, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:41.800 and the higher the stakes get. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.600 Your model reality gets so complex that you start being 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.080 careful when you walk this tightrope, as I describe it 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.120 in the book, this tightrope of if you update when 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.960 you shouldn't, then you will become wrong, and if you 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.640 don't update when you should, you'll stay wrong. So we're 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.680 very careful on this tightrope. But at a certain point 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.760 the model is so complex that it's better to err 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:03.840 on the side of well, it got me here at least, 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.200 so I will be careful about updating. So that's the 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.680 baseline resistance, and it's very rational, it's not weird, it's 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.960 not unusual. It's a logical good thing to do. But 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.560 that resistance starts bumping up from that baseline depending on 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:20.559 all sorts of other motivations that come into play. 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:22.880 And this makes sense. It aligns with what we learn 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.120 from Doctor's Whole Friend Sinatra in Lap thirty seven about 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.000 how cognitive biases help us stay in the models that 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.960 our minds have already created and predicted about the world 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.120 around us. Remember like we talked about with doctor Wendy 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.840 Suzuki in our lab about good anxiety. If your brain 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.439 doesn't know what's going on, it's on constant alert. We 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.120 can't take that type of alerting new thing, new thing, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.600 new thing, it's too much. So it makes sense for 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.960 your brain to want to be able to predict what 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.439 should happen and to kind of dampen those alerts and say, Okay, 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:56.800 this is supposed to be like this, This fits my 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.280 model of what should be happening in the world. Your 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.839 brain wants to have some predictive power so that it 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.719 won't be startled or alarmed. Right, It's like when you're 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.760 in bed at night and you might hear your air 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.720 conditioner cut on. If your brain doesn't store that sound 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.440 as a sound that you know, you're gonna wake up 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.120 ready to fight. Every single night. 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.920 You are building your model of reality each experience that 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.640 you have, and that means that there are more opportunities 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.640 when you're young to encounter things that are ambiguous, uncertain, 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.000 and unfamiliar. But the same things that you do as 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.240 an adult, you'll do as a child, you will base 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.959 your updating on how much does this match what I 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.120 already understand? How much does this counter what I saw before? 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.080 How new is this? And then you also think how 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.840 will this reflect upon my identity? You also have different 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:46.560 sources of trust as a child. Mostly it's your parents 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.840 and the culture that you're steeped within. 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.040 And that makes a lot of sense. A lot of 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.480 what we believe as adults is based off of how 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.640 we were raised by our caregivers, our parents, our grandparents, 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.640 whatever community that we are a part of. But then 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:07.040 we're also developing a model of reality as we grow. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.920 So maybe in your house every Friday it was pizza night. 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.240 That's the culture of your family. But then as you 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.040 get older you say, you know, maybe I'm not gonna 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.440 do pizza. I'm gonna do something else. You can overlay 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.160 that with things that you know or things that you 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.120 are experiencing as you are moving through life. And not 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.840 only are you creating this social framework, not only are 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.719 you building this physical neural network in your brain, there 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.520 is also chemical changes that happen when things are as 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:42.840 expected or different from expected. We ask David to tell 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.280 us what chemical is involved in the brain and related 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:47.240 to changing your mind. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.880 Dopine is often looked at as the reward chemical, but 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:51.640 it's really not how that works. It's the chemical that 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:53.960 alerts you as to whether or not your expectations have 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.640 been parted. So it's more than the chemical of surprise. Now, 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.800 oftentimes those surprises are positive when something happens that doesn't 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.400 matter for expectations. Basically, the brain sort of sits in 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.120 a soup of dopamine and the levels go up and 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.320 down all throughout the day, depending on how what we 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:09.360 experience match what we expect to experience. 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.360 Okay, so now you may be thinking, I know what 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.960 happens when I learn. I know what happens when I 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:16.920 know things, or at least when you think you know things. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.240 I know some of the chemical underpinnings of when things 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.920 go as expected and when they don't. But when are 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.000 y'all going to tell me how to convince somebody else 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:27.560 that they have it wrong and they should see it 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:50.000 my way. That's after the break. We're back, but before 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.800 we get to the rest of this lab, we have 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.040 to let you know what's coming up next. Next week, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.520 we heard the call. We will be talking about monkey pops, 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.120 So make sure you check it out to get the 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.920 truth about Monkey Pock's not just what's being spread on Instagram. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.920 Let's get back to today's lab. We've been talking to David mcraaney, 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.800 a journalist, lecturer, and author of the book How Mine's Changed. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.920 In David's quest to understand how Mine's changed, he talked 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.760 to canvassers, people who are in cults, you name it, 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.280 anybody who's changing someone else's mind. 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.320 What blew my mind about doing that was all these 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.200 different groups had never met each other, and most of 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.240 them were not aware of any of the psychological literature 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.319 that helped explain what was working. Yet they all came 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:35.880 up with pretty much the exact same thing, and if 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:37.800 they had steps, the steps were pretty much the exact 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:38.400 same steps. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:44.199 So we've arrived at the pivotal question how to change 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:49.680 someone's mind. First things First, ask yourself why you want 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:50.800 to do this? 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.480 This is really important. I know we all believe we 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.120 have the moral high ground. I know we all believe 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.280 that we are factually correct and everybody else is dumb. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.240 I know that's part of being a person. For each issue, 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.400 ask yourself, why do I want to do this? And 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.720 then socratic method of your way all the way down. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.600 Like my dad was really into the birth or conspiracy 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.199 theory back in the day. He's, you know, a white 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.240 man in the Deep South, and he's got all those 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.360 things to go with that Vietnam VET. And I remember 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.640 really getting upset about this and wanting to change his 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:21.800 mind about it. And I was like, well, why do 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.600 I want to change his mind? Well, because he's wrong, Like, well, 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:27.840 why does that matter to you? Well, because he's being 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.520 told things by people that are causing harm in this world? 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:31.760 Why is that important to you? And then I just 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.920 keep going down, down, down, down, And at some point 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:35.800 I had to admit I just wanted to be able 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:37.839 to trust this person the way I trust other people. 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:39.439 I didn't want it to be an US versus them 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.480 thing with my own father. And that's much more base 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.600 than what I may have assumed at first was my motivation. 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.920 David said that really opened up conversation with his dad 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.800 in a way that probably wouldn't have happened if David 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.880 had just insisted he was right. So step one is 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.760 bill rapport. Don't try to manipulate people. You have to 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.439 be transparent, tell them what you're trying to pomplish and 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.440 involve them in the process. Yes, ask them to be 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.480 a part of the process with you and explore why 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:07.840 you disagree with each other. 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.440 You and I can get together and try to solve 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.880 the mystery of why do you think we see this differently? 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:14.840 Are you in on that? Could you be on that? 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.480 And like, ask them, don't tell them, don't push You 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.400 have to pull the string, not push it. 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.240 Step two is the frame the issue as a number. 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.720 This gets us out of the right verse, wrong, all 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.160 or nothing to a more nuanced approach to an issue. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.560 If the issue is an attitude claim, you would say 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.160 how strongly do you feel about this? Like on a 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.000 scale from zero to ten. If it's a fact based claim, 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.040 say how confident are you? How certain are you this 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.160 is true? From zero to ten? Give it a number. 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:42.960 That's that next thing that I want you to do, 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.200 which is why does that number feel right to you? 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.920 Which is that moment that most people will go mmm, 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:49.640 and you start thinking in a way that you haven't 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:51.880 considered before it. But also it gets you out of 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:53.880 the debate frame. It gets you out of the argument frame. 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.120 Now we're exploring something together. 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.560 David did this to me? Okay? Asked me what my 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.360 favorite movie was. I said it was a Rival. He said, 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.240 how do you rate it? I said a ten. He 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:07.920 said why a ten and not an eight? I said, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:12.440 cause it's good. But then he was like, well, what 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.280 did you like about it? I was like, maybe it 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.200 isn't eight. I'm sorry. I doubt it Arrival, but it 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.400 really got me out of debate mode and more to 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.000 exploratory mode. He actually agreed with me that it was 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.880 a good movie before I gave it a number, and 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.320 so he was kind of working and pulling apart, like 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.120 why I gave it a ten? And I guess that 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.560 helps him understand my value system. When I tell him 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:36.920 why it's important to me, you. 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.680 Just listen and repeat and reflect and hold space. And 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:41.960 I'm telling you, it seems like this can't be enough. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:46.040 I have watched videos from street epistemology and deep canvassing 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.160 and smart politics, and then in therapeutic models motivational interviewing, 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:51.880 which much of this is based on, and I have 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.760 watched people talk themselves out of their position over and 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:56.400 over and over again by just holding space. 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:03.920 In this way. Of course, there is a caveat when 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.960 you're dealing with prejudice, racism, sexism, or really hot issues 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.040 like guns or abortions. You might not want to do this, 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.880 especially if you're the target of that prejudice. And that 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:18.400 is totally fine. 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:20.640 I get that you feel this way and that it's 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:22.600 not weird to feel that way. But if you want 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.640 to change someone's mind, if that's your goal, do you 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.440 have to approach it in this non judgmental, listening sort 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.640 of way. And I know that sucks. It's weird. It's 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.440 easy to justify any of your behaviors, and it's easy 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.480 to rationalize what you want to do without introspecting the 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.760 antecedents of all those things. Why do I want to 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.120 do that? And that's also true in arguing. Why do 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.640 I feel so strongly? Why does that person feel so strongly? 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:46.840 It's very easy for a person in an argument to 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.600 come up with justifications and rationalizations, and then I'll take 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.440 my justifications and rationalizations and I'll throw them at yours 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:54.800 and we'll do one of those things where we If 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.840 you're online, I share links, you share links, I share videos, 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.240 you share videos, and nothing happens. The reason nothing happens 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.040 is because we are motivated reasoners, so we have some 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.040 motivation at play that let us look at all the 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.800 information available and cherry picked the evidence that supported the 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.920 emotion that we felt regarding that issue. Then we put 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:15.000 all that into a collection. 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.879 David explains that motivated reasoning causes us to judge information 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.560 differently because we're biased emotionally, so even if the evidence 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.000 isn't really there, we want it to fit what we've 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.720 already decided. I know plenty of people like that. 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.960 And then we meet another person. We take stuff out 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.000 of that collection and go, this is why I believe this, 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.800 But that's not why you believe it. That was something 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.680 you found after the fact, that was at the end 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.680 of the process. But they also have done the same thing, 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:45.359 and so they're like, oh, really, well, here's why I 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.679 believe what I believe And you start throwing this stuff 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.520 back and forth that never actually was the reason why 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:51.560 you feel the way you feel. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.440 That's really interesting, and David talks about the truth being 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.160 tribal in his book Yes. A lot of this has 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.879 to do with your identity and how the truth aligns 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.639 with your identity about you and your own group. He 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.359 talks about this experiment where people are challenged with an 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.600 issue and they have to choose a side or decide 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:20.119 what the truth is. When that happens, their fight or 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:25.320 flight mode is activated. Wow. And interestingly enough, the more 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.760 they're asked to think about ideas that are associated with 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:33.320 their own identity, the more the response ramps up. And 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.240 that's because your brain's primary job is to protect yourself, 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.760 and that extends past your physical self to your psychological self. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.399 We're social people, and part of being social is to 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.800 make groups. And you can imagine groups where resources are limited. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.080 It's us versus them, and research has found that no 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.359 matter how big or small a difference is between two 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.600 people or two groups, folks will lean into that us 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.160 versus them mentality. Yeah, and so as a result of that, 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.320 because it's us versus them, they will do whatever it 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.560 takes in order to establish a hierarchy that we are 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.000 better than you, even if it's to our own destriment. So, 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.800 now that we know that we have this us versus them, 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.399 are we stuck in our own groups? Well, we argue forever. 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:19.920 I don't want to argue. 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.400 Reasoning is not flawed or irrational. It's biased and lazy, 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.360 and that's actually a good thing. Arguing is a good thing. 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.320 I think all the arguing we're doing online is the 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:30.360 greatest thing ever and it's going to lead to a 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.200 better world. I really truly believe that. I do also 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.280 believe the context in which we find ourselves performing these 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:40.520 arguments is not suited to the way that we evolve 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.080 to interact with other human beings who disagree with us, 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:44.680 and we'll have to fix that over time. 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.480 David says we have two systems when it comes to debate, deliberation, 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.920 and arguments. One is for producing them and the other 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.160 is for evaluating them. And the system that produces these 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.960 arguments has to be done on an individual level. 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:03.639 We're individually producing our argument, but we're never individually evaluating arguments. 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.479 I mean not really, because an argument sits out there 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.520 for anyone to see and think and consider. 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:13.120 So while arguments may be useful, the context around arguments, 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:23.560 so in online discussions, might not be the best. So 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.520 David is saying that arguing is a good thing and 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.840 that we can all learn and grow from it depending 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:31.600 on the context. But we can also see we're arguing 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.840 and grouping and even arguing publicly can go wrong, and 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:40.080 that's when the brain is overprotective it's protecting its social 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.200 self even over its physical self. And David says that 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.280 based on a study, the fear of social death is 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.080 greater than the fear of physical death. 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:52.440 At the baseline, a lot of resistance comes from something 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:54.720 that's way simpler. It's almost outside of all those it's 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.359 just something in psychology they call reactants. If you into 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.760 it that your autonomy is at risk, you become motivationally 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.720 aroused to remove the stimulus object, which is a fun 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.640 way of saying, if you push, I will push back. 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.480 What often happens is when I push back, you react, 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.159 and so then you make me push harder, and we 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.080 get into a loop where eventually go, let's agree to disagree, 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.200 which I hate that language because you already agreed to disagree. 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.280 Let me tell you reactants has been haunted me my 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.920 entire life. If I wanted to clean up my room 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.400 and then somebody came and said, hey, clean up your room, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:32.520 I immediately don't want to do it. I don't like 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.920 my autonomy to be taken away. Well that doesn't sound 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:40.200