1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,400
Speaker 1: You know, TT, we're always talking about what we believe. Yes,

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 1: I think one of my favorite things that you say

3
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,319
Speaker 1: is it's okay to change your mind. It's okay to

4
00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:14,120
Speaker 1: say you don't know and to start something new, unlearn, relearn. Yes,

5
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,000
Speaker 1: and I think it's time to bring that message to

6
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,840
Speaker 1: the masses. I'm TT, and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify.

7
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 1: This is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly

8
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,760
Speaker 1: podcast that mixes hardcore science, pop culture, and a healthy

9
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 1: dose of friendship. This week, we're talking all about changing

10
00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 1: our minds. Specifically, we really want to know more about

11
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,400
Speaker 1: how we may make up our minds, what happens when

12
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,559
Speaker 1: someone tries to change it, and why we often see

13
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,920
Speaker 1: such strong reactions when people are trying to convince one

14
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: another of something different. Let's get into the recitation. So

15
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: what do we know? I know, at least anecdotally, it

16
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 1: feels like people's minds can't be changed. They're in the

17
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,880
Speaker 1: comment section acting a fool marker on the Twitter threads.

18
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: I told you so, right, it's wild. I mean, social

19
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,440
Speaker 1: media is a prime example of people not changing their minds.

20
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,440
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how many facts you bring, there's still

21
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 1: gonna be people who are very adamant about their perspective.

22
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 1: That's the nice way I'm going to say it. There's

23
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,840
Speaker 1: always been this type of polarization around really big issues

24
00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,840
Speaker 1: that are really complex and loaded, but it feels like

25
00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 1: now we're even seeing this same type of energy. People

26
00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 1: are bringing a lot of smoke for small issues that

27
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 1: normally we would say we're trivial. People are just grouping

28
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,680
Speaker 1: up in a way that I feel like we didn't

29
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 1: used to see right, And I don't know what that

30
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 1: says about us. I don't know what it says about

31
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,080
Speaker 1: our brains. It's like something is happening to us. And

32
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 1: we talked about this in an earlier episode Lab thirty

33
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,200
Speaker 1: seven with doctors Hofer and Sinatra about how even when

34
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,840
Speaker 1: folks are presented with information that is actually true, they

35
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 1: will still decide to believe the opposite. And we also

36
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,640
Speaker 1: know that a major part of how people get the

37
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 1: misinformation and choose to stick to it is related to

38
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,600
Speaker 1: our cognitive biases. Doctor Hofer and doctor Sinatra told us

39
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,600
Speaker 1: that too, And so it feels like all that stuff

40
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,240
Speaker 1: is somehow kind of related to changing minds. So what

41
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 1: do we want to know about changing minds. I want

42
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,000
Speaker 1: to know what is happening in the brain when we

43
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,799
Speaker 1: change our minds, both over time and in the moment.

44
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,959
Speaker 1: What is actually going on? The superhero of me wants

45
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,840
Speaker 1: to know how to change someone's mind. I want to

46
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,360
Speaker 1: know how to do it. How do I breach folks

47
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 1: who are seeing things differently. I want to know what

48
00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:12,600
Speaker 1: the science says about shifts in public opinion like widespread

49
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: beliefs and regional norms, and when folks are refusing to

50
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 1: change what's happening there, even when they sometimes have the

51
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 1: evidence that they should change. It's a lot to learn.

52
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:37,960
Speaker 1: Let's jump into the dissections. Our guest for today's lab

53
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,120
Speaker 1: is David McRaney.

54
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,000
Speaker 2: I'm David McCraney. I'm a science journalist and author and podcaster,

55
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,840
Speaker 2: if that's even a thing people say anymore.

56
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,320
Speaker 1: David has written several books, including You're Not So Smart,

57
00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: which is also the name of his podcast. His latest

58
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,760
Speaker 1: book is called How Minds Change. But before we can

59
00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 1: talk about how our minds change, let's talk about what

60
00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 1: happens when we make up our minds in the first place.

61
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,560
Speaker 1: And this has to do with epistemology. Epistemology is the

62
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,880
Speaker 1: theory of knowledge. It's a branch of philosophy that is

63
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,880
Speaker 1: all about what it means to know something, and it's

64
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: a lot of what David writes about in his book. Now,

65
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,920
Speaker 1: epistemology is really complex. Our brains are constantly processing new information,

66
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 1: and we touched on this in some earlier labs. You

67
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,680
Speaker 1: might remember this with Lab ten of lie to me

68
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,080
Speaker 1: how people can have totally different memories of the same event,

69
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,680
Speaker 1: or Lab fourteen in the Art of the con with

70
00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 1: doctor Lsana Harris, where we talked about scams and why

71
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,840
Speaker 1: we fall for them. So before we jump into changing

72
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,480
Speaker 1: our minds, let's really construct how we make up our minds. Well,

73
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 1: the first thing to consider is how our brains are

74
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,599
Speaker 1: working to decide what we know in the first place.

75
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,840
Speaker 1: In some of our earlier episodes and in David's book,

76
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 1: there's the understanding that our brain is never as it

77
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: was before. It's constantly changing. With each interaction. Neurons are firing,

78
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 1: creating new connections or reinforcing old ones, physically changing the

79
00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,239
Speaker 1: brain from one interaction to the next, and that's what's

80
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,040
Speaker 1: called neuroplasticity.

81
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 2: The brain is this thing that it creates a virtual

82
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,599
Speaker 2: reality in your head, and that virtual reality gets more

83
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,440
Speaker 2: and more complex over time as we grow up and

84
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 2: experience things and learn things and start forming identities and

85
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:22,960
Speaker 2: group identities.

86
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,280
Speaker 1: And so when we consider how we experience and learn things,

87
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 1: David turned to twentieth century psychologist Jean Piget PSA is

88
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: considered the father of what is known as genetic epistemology,

89
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,479
Speaker 1: and this type of epistemology is basically studying knowledge that

90
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,560
Speaker 1: centers your interaction with the environment. Pha developed two concepts

91
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,479
Speaker 1: which are really helpful in understanding what's going on when

92
00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,640
Speaker 1: we change our minds or resist changing. Those concepts are

93
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,240
Speaker 1: assimilation and accommodation.

94
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,800
Speaker 2: Assimilation is when something's ambiguous or uncertain or unfamiliar. We

95
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,200
Speaker 2: we often will try to interpret it as just another

96
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,360
Speaker 2: example of what we already think, feel, and believe. Often

97
00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 2: is confirmation that we were right already. Accommodation is when

98
00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 2: something keeps coming around, like the counter attitudeinal counterfactual information.

99
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 2: Just so many anomalies build up that you must accommodate

100
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 2: to make sense of them.

101
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 1: David provides a great example of both assimilation and accommodation.

102
00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,680
Speaker 2: What a child sees a dog for the first time.

103
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,960
Speaker 2: Oftentimes they'll point at it and say, you know, what

104
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,280
Speaker 2: is that and you say a dog, and in their

105
00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,440
Speaker 2: minds something categorical happens, something like non human walks on

106
00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 2: four legs, furry, has a tail, it's alive. That's a dog.

107
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: But if you see a dog that's a different color,

108
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 1: it still fits what you know. It's furry, it walks

109
00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,880
Speaker 1: on four legs, it's got a tail, But now you

110
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,120
Speaker 1: have this additional layer of oh, it can be another color.

111
00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,240
Speaker 1: But David says, sometimes it's more than just adding that

112
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,400
Speaker 1: single layer, and you have to bring in a lot

113
00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,400
Speaker 1: more information. Let's say you see something else that fits

114
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 1: your example of what a dog could be.

115
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 2: So then later on when they see a horse, they

116
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,120
Speaker 2: might point out it and go dog, or they might

117
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 2: say big dog. If they're a really sort of advanced child,

118
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,240
Speaker 2: that's assimilation, Like this seems to fit with what I understand.

119
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,480
Speaker 2: It's walks on four legs, it's furry, it's an animal,

120
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 2: it's live a dog, right, And you're like, no, no,

121
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 2: that's horse, and so they have must accommodate to bring

122
00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 2: that into their model.

123
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,760
Speaker 1: Here we get an example of both assimilation and accommodation.

124
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 1: The interesting thing is that it's always happening, and we're

125
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 1: doing that right now in this podcast. We're always updating

126
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 1: our model of reality. And the older we get, the

127
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 1: more information we consume, the more complex this process gets,

128
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 1: and the higher the stakes get.

129
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 2: Your model reality gets so complex that you start being

130
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 2: careful when you walk this tightrope, as I describe it

131
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,120
Speaker 2: in the book, this tightrope of if you update when

132
00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 2: you shouldn't, then you will become wrong, and if you

133
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,640
Speaker 2: don't update when you should, you'll stay wrong. So we're

134
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,680
Speaker 2: very careful on this tightrope. But at a certain point

135
00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,760
Speaker 2: the model is so complex that it's better to err

136
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,840
Speaker 2: on the side of well, it got me here at least,

137
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,200
Speaker 2: so I will be careful about updating. So that's the

138
00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,680
Speaker 2: baseline resistance, and it's very rational, it's not weird, it's

139
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 2: not unusual. It's a logical good thing to do. But

140
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 2: that resistance starts bumping up from that baseline depending on

141
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,559
Speaker 2: all sorts of other motivations that come into play.

142
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 1: And this makes sense. It aligns with what we learn

143
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 1: from Doctor's Whole Friend Sinatra in Lap thirty seven about

144
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 1: how cognitive biases help us stay in the models that

145
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,960
Speaker 1: our minds have already created and predicted about the world

146
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: around us. Remember like we talked about with doctor Wendy

147
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,840
Speaker 1: Suzuki in our lab about good anxiety. If your brain

148
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,439
Speaker 1: doesn't know what's going on, it's on constant alert. We

149
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,120
Speaker 1: can't take that type of alerting new thing, new thing,

150
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,600
Speaker 1: new thing, it's too much. So it makes sense for

151
00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,960
Speaker 1: your brain to want to be able to predict what

152
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,439
Speaker 1: should happen and to kind of dampen those alerts and say, Okay,

153
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 1: this is supposed to be like this, This fits my

154
00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 1: model of what should be happening in the world. Your

155
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,839
Speaker 1: brain wants to have some predictive power so that it

156
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,719
Speaker 1: won't be startled or alarmed. Right, It's like when you're

157
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: in bed at night and you might hear your air

158
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,720
Speaker 1: conditioner cut on. If your brain doesn't store that sound

159
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,440
Speaker 1: as a sound that you know, you're gonna wake up

160
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,120
Speaker 1: ready to fight. Every single night.

161
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 2: You are building your model of reality each experience that

162
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,640
Speaker 2: you have, and that means that there are more opportunities

163
00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 2: when you're young to encounter things that are ambiguous, uncertain,

164
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 2: and unfamiliar. But the same things that you do as

165
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 2: an adult, you'll do as a child, you will base

166
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,959
Speaker 2: your updating on how much does this match what I

167
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 2: already understand? How much does this counter what I saw before?

168
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,080
Speaker 2: How new is this? And then you also think how

169
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,840
Speaker 2: will this reflect upon my identity? You also have different

170
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,560
Speaker 2: sources of trust as a child. Mostly it's your parents

171
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,840
Speaker 2: and the culture that you're steeped within.

172
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,040
Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense. A lot of

173
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 1: what we believe as adults is based off of how

174
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: we were raised by our caregivers, our parents, our grandparents,

175
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 1: whatever community that we are a part of. But then

176
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:07,040
Speaker 1: we're also developing a model of reality as we grow.

177
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,920
Speaker 1: So maybe in your house every Friday it was pizza night.

178
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,240
Speaker 1: That's the culture of your family. But then as you

179
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 1: get older you say, you know, maybe I'm not gonna

180
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,440
Speaker 1: do pizza. I'm gonna do something else. You can overlay

181
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,160
Speaker 1: that with things that you know or things that you

182
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 1: are experiencing as you are moving through life. And not

183
00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 1: only are you creating this social framework, not only are

184
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,719
Speaker 1: you building this physical neural network in your brain, there

185
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 1: is also chemical changes that happen when things are as

186
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,840
Speaker 1: expected or different from expected. We ask David to tell

187
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,280
Speaker 1: us what chemical is involved in the brain and related

188
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:47,240
Speaker 1: to changing your mind.

189
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,880
Speaker 2: Dopine is often looked at as the reward chemical, but

190
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 2: it's really not how that works. It's the chemical that

191
00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,960
Speaker 2: alerts you as to whether or not your expectations have

192
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,640
Speaker 2: been parted. So it's more than the chemical of surprise. Now,

193
00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 2: oftentimes those surprises are positive when something happens that doesn't

194
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 2: matter for expectations. Basically, the brain sort of sits in

195
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 2: a soup of dopamine and the levels go up and

196
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,320
Speaker 2: down all throughout the day, depending on how what we

197
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,360
Speaker 2: experience match what we expect to experience.

198
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so now you may be thinking, I know what

199
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,960
Speaker 1: happens when I learn. I know what happens when I

200
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,920
Speaker 1: know things, or at least when you think you know things.

201
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 1: I know some of the chemical underpinnings of when things

202
00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,920
Speaker 1: go as expected and when they don't. But when are

203
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 1: y'all going to tell me how to convince somebody else

204
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,560
Speaker 1: that they have it wrong and they should see it

205
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:50,000
Speaker 1: my way. That's after the break. We're back, but before

206
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: we get to the rest of this lab, we have

207
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,040
Speaker 1: to let you know what's coming up next. Next week,

208
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,520
Speaker 1: we heard the call. We will be talking about monkey pops,

209
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 1: So make sure you check it out to get the

210
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,920
Speaker 1: truth about Monkey Pock's not just what's being spread on Instagram.

211
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 1: Let's get back to today's lab. We've been talking to David mcraaney,

212
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: a journalist, lecturer, and author of the book How Mine's Changed.

213
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,920
Speaker 1: In David's quest to understand how Mine's changed, he talked

214
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 1: to canvassers, people who are in cults, you name it,

215
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 1: anybody who's changing someone else's mind.

216
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,320
Speaker 2: What blew my mind about doing that was all these

217
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 2: different groups had never met each other, and most of

218
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 2: them were not aware of any of the psychological literature

219
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,319
Speaker 2: that helped explain what was working. Yet they all came

220
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,880
Speaker 2: up with pretty much the exact same thing, and if

221
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 2: they had steps, the steps were pretty much the exact

222
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 2: same steps.

223
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:44,199
Speaker 1: So we've arrived at the pivotal question how to change

224
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,680
Speaker 1: someone's mind. First things First, ask yourself why you want

225
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:50,800
Speaker 1: to do this?

226
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 2: This is really important. I know we all believe we

227
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 2: have the moral high ground. I know we all believe

228
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,280
Speaker 2: that we are factually correct and everybody else is dumb.

229
00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,240
Speaker 2: I know that's part of being a person. For each issue,

230
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 2: ask yourself, why do I want to do this? And

231
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 2: then socratic method of your way all the way down.

232
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 2: Like my dad was really into the birth or conspiracy

233
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,199
Speaker 2: theory back in the day. He's, you know, a white

234
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,240
Speaker 2: man in the Deep South, and he's got all those

235
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 2: things to go with that Vietnam VET. And I remember

236
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,640
Speaker 2: really getting upset about this and wanting to change his

237
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 2: mind about it. And I was like, well, why do

238
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,600
Speaker 2: I want to change his mind? Well, because he's wrong, Like, well,

239
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,840
Speaker 2: why does that matter to you? Well, because he's being

240
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 2: told things by people that are causing harm in this world?

241
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,760
Speaker 2: Why is that important to you? And then I just

242
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,920
Speaker 2: keep going down, down, down, down, And at some point

243
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,800
Speaker 2: I had to admit I just wanted to be able

244
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,839
Speaker 2: to trust this person the way I trust other people.

245
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,439
Speaker 2: I didn't want it to be an US versus them

246
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 2: thing with my own father. And that's much more base

247
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,600
Speaker 2: than what I may have assumed at first was my motivation.

248
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 1: David said that really opened up conversation with his dad

249
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,800
Speaker 1: in a way that probably wouldn't have happened if David

250
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,880
Speaker 1: had just insisted he was right. So step one is

251
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 1: bill rapport. Don't try to manipulate people. You have to

252
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,439
Speaker 1: be transparent, tell them what you're trying to pomplish and

253
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,440
Speaker 1: involve them in the process. Yes, ask them to be

254
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 1: a part of the process with you and explore why

255
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:07,840
Speaker 1: you disagree with each other.

256
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,440
Speaker 2: You and I can get together and try to solve

257
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 2: the mystery of why do you think we see this differently?

258
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:14,840
Speaker 2: Are you in on that? Could you be on that?

259
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,480
Speaker 2: And like, ask them, don't tell them, don't push You

260
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 2: have to pull the string, not push it.

261
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 1: Step two is the frame the issue as a number.

262
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: This gets us out of the right verse, wrong, all

263
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,160
Speaker 1: or nothing to a more nuanced approach to an issue.

264
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,560
Speaker 2: If the issue is an attitude claim, you would say

265
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,160
Speaker 2: how strongly do you feel about this? Like on a

266
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 2: scale from zero to ten. If it's a fact based claim,

267
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,040
Speaker 2: say how confident are you? How certain are you this

268
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,160
Speaker 2: is true? From zero to ten? Give it a number.

269
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,960
Speaker 2: That's that next thing that I want you to do,

270
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 2: which is why does that number feel right to you?

271
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,920
Speaker 2: Which is that moment that most people will go mmm,

272
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 2: and you start thinking in a way that you haven't

273
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 2: considered before it. But also it gets you out of

274
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,880
Speaker 2: the debate frame. It gets you out of the argument frame.

275
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,120
Speaker 2: Now we're exploring something together.

276
00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 1: David did this to me? Okay? Asked me what my

277
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 1: favorite movie was. I said it was a Rival. He said,

278
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 1: how do you rate it? I said a ten. He

279
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:07,920
Speaker 1: said why a ten and not an eight? I said,

280
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,440
Speaker 1: cause it's good. But then he was like, well, what

281
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 1: did you like about it? I was like, maybe it

282
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 1: isn't eight. I'm sorry. I doubt it Arrival, but it

283
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 1: really got me out of debate mode and more to

284
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 1: exploratory mode. He actually agreed with me that it was

285
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 1: a good movie before I gave it a number, and

286
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 1: so he was kind of working and pulling apart, like

287
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,120
Speaker 1: why I gave it a ten? And I guess that

288
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 1: helps him understand my value system. When I tell him

289
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:36,920
Speaker 1: why it's important to me, you.

290
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,680
Speaker 2: Just listen and repeat and reflect and hold space. And

291
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,960
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, it seems like this can't be enough.

292
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 2: I have watched videos from street epistemology and deep canvassing

293
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 2: and smart politics, and then in therapeutic models motivational interviewing,

294
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 2: which much of this is based on, and I have

295
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 2: watched people talk themselves out of their position over and

296
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,400
Speaker 2: over and over again by just holding space.

297
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 1: In this way. Of course, there is a caveat when

298
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 1: you're dealing with prejudice, racism, sexism, or really hot issues

299
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 1: like guns or abortions. You might not want to do this,

300
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 1: especially if you're the target of that prejudice. And that

301
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,400
Speaker 1: is totally fine.

302
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 2: I get that you feel this way and that it's

303
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 2: not weird to feel that way. But if you want

304
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,640
Speaker 2: to change someone's mind, if that's your goal, do you

305
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,440
Speaker 2: have to approach it in this non judgmental, listening sort

306
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 2: of way. And I know that sucks. It's weird. It's

307
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 2: easy to justify any of your behaviors, and it's easy

308
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 2: to rationalize what you want to do without introspecting the

309
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 2: antecedents of all those things. Why do I want to

310
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 2: do that? And that's also true in arguing. Why do

311
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,640
Speaker 2: I feel so strongly? Why does that person feel so strongly?

312
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,840
Speaker 2: It's very easy for a person in an argument to

313
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 2: come up with justifications and rationalizations, and then I'll take

314
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 2: my justifications and rationalizations and I'll throw them at yours

315
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 2: and we'll do one of those things where we If

316
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 2: you're online, I share links, you share links, I share videos,

317
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,240
Speaker 2: you share videos, and nothing happens. The reason nothing happens

318
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 2: is because we are motivated reasoners, so we have some

319
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 2: motivation at play that let us look at all the

320
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 2: information available and cherry picked the evidence that supported the

321
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,920
Speaker 2: emotion that we felt regarding that issue. Then we put

322
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 2: all that into a collection.

323
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,879
Speaker 1: David explains that motivated reasoning causes us to judge information

324
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,560
Speaker 1: differently because we're biased emotionally, so even if the evidence

325
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,000
Speaker 1: isn't really there, we want it to fit what we've

326
00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,720
Speaker 1: already decided. I know plenty of people like that.

327
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 2: And then we meet another person. We take stuff out

328
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 2: of that collection and go, this is why I believe this,

329
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 2: But that's not why you believe it. That was something

330
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,680
Speaker 2: you found after the fact, that was at the end

331
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 2: of the process. But they also have done the same thing,

332
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 2: and so they're like, oh, really, well, here's why I

333
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,679
Speaker 2: believe what I believe And you start throwing this stuff

334
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 2: back and forth that never actually was the reason why

335
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 2: you feel the way you feel.

336
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,440
Speaker 1: That's really interesting, and David talks about the truth being

337
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,160
Speaker 1: tribal in his book Yes. A lot of this has

338
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,879
Speaker 1: to do with your identity and how the truth aligns

339
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,639
Speaker 1: with your identity about you and your own group. He

340
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,359
Speaker 1: talks about this experiment where people are challenged with an

341
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: issue and they have to choose a side or decide

342
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 1: what the truth is. When that happens, their fight or

343
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: flight mode is activated. Wow. And interestingly enough, the more

344
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 1: they're asked to think about ideas that are associated with

345
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 1: their own identity, the more the response ramps up. And

346
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,240
Speaker 1: that's because your brain's primary job is to protect yourself,

347
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: and that extends past your physical self to your psychological self.

348
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 1: We're social people, and part of being social is to

349
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 1: make groups. And you can imagine groups where resources are limited.

350
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 1: It's us versus them, and research has found that no

351
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,359
Speaker 1: matter how big or small a difference is between two

352
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 1: people or two groups, folks will lean into that us

353
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,160
Speaker 1: versus them mentality. Yeah, and so as a result of that,

354
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: because it's us versus them, they will do whatever it

355
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: takes in order to establish a hierarchy that we are

356
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 1: better than you, even if it's to our own destriment. So,

357
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 1: now that we know that we have this us versus them,

358
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 1: are we stuck in our own groups? Well, we argue forever.

359
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to argue.

360
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,400
Speaker 2: Reasoning is not flawed or irrational. It's biased and lazy,

361
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,360
Speaker 2: and that's actually a good thing. Arguing is a good thing.

362
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 2: I think all the arguing we're doing online is the

363
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,360
Speaker 2: greatest thing ever and it's going to lead to a

364
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,200
Speaker 2: better world. I really truly believe that. I do also

365
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 2: believe the context in which we find ourselves performing these

366
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,520
Speaker 2: arguments is not suited to the way that we evolve

367
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 2: to interact with other human beings who disagree with us,

368
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,680
Speaker 2: and we'll have to fix that over time.

369
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: David says we have two systems when it comes to debate, deliberation,

370
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 1: and arguments. One is for producing them and the other

371
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,160
Speaker 1: is for evaluating them. And the system that produces these

372
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 1: arguments has to be done on an individual level.

373
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,639
Speaker 2: We're individually producing our argument, but we're never individually evaluating arguments.

374
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,479
Speaker 2: I mean not really, because an argument sits out there

375
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 2: for anyone to see and think and consider.

376
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,120
Speaker 1: So while arguments may be useful, the context around arguments,

377
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 1: so in online discussions, might not be the best. So

378
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: David is saying that arguing is a good thing and

379
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,840
Speaker 1: that we can all learn and grow from it depending

380
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: on the context. But we can also see we're arguing

381
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 1: and grouping and even arguing publicly can go wrong, and

382
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: that's when the brain is overprotective it's protecting its social

383
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 1: self even over its physical self. And David says that

384
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: based on a study, the fear of social death is

385
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: greater than the fear of physical death.

386
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 2: At the baseline, a lot of resistance comes from something

387
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 2: that's way simpler. It's almost outside of all those it's

388
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,359
Speaker 2: just something in psychology they call reactants. If you into

389
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: it that your autonomy is at risk, you become motivationally

390
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: aroused to remove the stimulus object, which is a fun

391
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 2: way of saying, if you push, I will push back.

392
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 2: What often happens is when I push back, you react,

393
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 2: and so then you make me push harder, and we

394
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 2: get into a loop where eventually go, let's agree to disagree,

395
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 2: which I hate that language because you already agreed to disagree.

396
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: Let me tell you reactants has been haunted me my

397
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: entire life. If I wanted to clean up my room

398
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,400
Speaker 1: and then somebody came and said, hey, clean up your room,

399
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 1: I immediately don't want to do it. I don't like

400
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 1: my autonomy to be taken away. Well that doesn't sound

401
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: too different from present day Zekiah, you know, talking about

402
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 1: a long time ago, But actually today I don't see

403
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 1: already I'm reacting about what you're saying. I don't. I

404
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 1: don't even know what I don't. I just don't, Okay,

405
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: I don't. Oh wait, I don't know what your truth is.

406
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: But David talks about concerns about us becoming a post

407
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: truth societ where you have true versus false, honesty versus lying,

408
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: and depending on who you're talking to, what they say

409
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: is going on may be completely different. But I think

410
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 1: another thing is how people perceive things, like you saw

411
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: it with their own eyes, and somebody it may be

412
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: described somewhere. We saw this like inauguration crowd size. It

413
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,880
Speaker 1: was huge, everybody was there, and it's like, how many

414
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 1: is everybody? What do you mean by that? I saw

415
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: a lot of floor space? So what does this mean?

416
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: Are we truly living in a post truth world?

417
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 2: This is what Tom Stafford said to me about this.

418
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: Germs were always a problem for human beings in groups,

419
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 2: and then we built cities and it became an existential problem.

420
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 2: So to solve that problem, we had to at the

421
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 2: level of society develop things like sanitation, and the level

422
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 2: of the individual, we had to develop things like boiling

423
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 2: water and washing your hands. And we overcame it, and

424
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: he said, misinformation has always been a problem for people

425
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: in groups. Then we got the Internet and it became existential.

426
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: So we will have to generationally learn the equivalent of

427
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: sanitation and washing our hands when it comes to the

428
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: exchange of ideas and information.

429
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: You know, this is perfect. I think it ties in

430
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: all the things we've been trying to do with dope labs.

431
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: I want to hear other people's opinions. I want to

432
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: understand the experiences they may be having that are different

433
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: from me. I want to take that into account when

434
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: I'm considering my own experiences. I also want to see

435
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: what's factually happening. I want to know that what I'm

436
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: experiencing and what you're experiencing these things might not be isolated.

437
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: They may be part of a bigger pattern. And just

438
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: because I've observed something thirty times on that thirty first time,

439
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: it could be different, and I want to be open

440
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: to seeing that truth. Yeah, there has to be a process,

441
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that we can eventually get to that

442
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: point where checking sources, not just reading headlines and reading

443
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: the whole article, becomes a part of how we consume

444
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: information on the Internet. And it feels hard. I feel

445
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: like I can't fight evolution and what our brains telling

446
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: us to do, which is to use all these cognitive biases.

447
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: And so we asked David, should we just give up?

448
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: I mean, this feels tiring.

449
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: No one's unreachable, no one is impossible to persuade, and

450
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: most of us share very common values, and most of

451
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: us will agree that the problems that are the problems

452
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 2: are the problems. If you in research where they have

453
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: people look at the UN survey of values, they find

454
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: incredible agreement on those issues. A lot of our assumptions

455
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: of us versus them are lose rey to the point

456
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: of causing real harm in the world. That's not to

457
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: say there aren't bad actors people who do not wish

458
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 2: to engage you in good faith and who actually do

459
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: want to cause harm and would be totally okay with

460
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: your harm. I feel that those people are in a

461
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: fringe that has been magnified by the way we engage

462
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 2: in discourse today. Their numbers are few, and their power

463
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: is we can it'll stay that way if we keep

464
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: it that way. And traditionally, over the course of our

465
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: long history, there have been moments where those bad actors

466
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 2: have risen to power and have exerted political and influence,

467
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: and it was the work of people who are diligent

468
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: and indefatigable and refuse to give into hopelessness, who push.

469
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: That stuff down. I really like what David said, to

470
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: not give in too hopelessness. Yes, and you know we're

471
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: both human. Well you know I'm a little bit more

472
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: human than you. Yes, I'm a little bit more martian.

473
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: It's easy for us to also, you know, watch the

474
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: news and watch conversation about things and be like, what

475
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: that's not true. I feel like, I know we both

476
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: have been looking at the conversation around monkey pox, you know,

477
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: and saying, what that's not true? Are we going to

478
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: make these same mistakes from before? And so it can

479
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: be easy to slip into that hopelessness. But David says,

480
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: stand up. Yeah. So I actually had a conversation with

481
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: you about this where someone that we both know had

482
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: posted something on their Instagram about monkey that I was like,

483
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: this is not true. When we had just talked to

484
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: David and you were like, hey, David would say say something.

485
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: So I went back and said, hey, y'all, that ain't this,

486
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: This ain't right, because we cannot give up hope. We

487
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: have to keep pushing truth. I think we maybe have

488
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: this unrealistic expectation that everybody will be on board. I

489
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: think it's never going to be one hundred percent. But

490
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: what we do want to do is to equip folks

491
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: who are in that middle area that are just uninformed.

492
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: We want to equip them with some tools to be

493
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: able to know how to evaluate information and to be

494
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: able to even recognize bias for themselves, confirmation bias. I

495
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: am good for that. If I think I need a

496
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: thing and then I see an Instagram post for it,

497
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: I say, I knew I needed it. Look when really

498
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: the internet knows what you're doing, right, Yes, And so

499
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: I think we're all susceptible and it's easy to fall prey,

500
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: and so I think we just got to remain diligent.

501
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: All right, y'all, it's time for one thing. What is

502
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: our one thing this week? Zee? Our one thing this

503
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: week is David mcrainey's book, How Minds Change. The Surprising

504
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: Science of Belief, opinion, and Persuasion. I really enjoyed this book.

505
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: We're gonna link it in the show notes. Please please

506
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: please check it out. We're also gonna link some other

507
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: books that we mentioned in this lab that are linked

508
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 1: to previous labs that we also think you should check out. Okay,

509
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: that's it for Lab seventy five. Did I Change your Mind?

510
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: Are you ready to change other people's minds? Call us

511
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: at two zero two five six seven seven zero two

512
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: eight and tell us what you thought, or give us

513
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: an idea for a lab you think we should do

514
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: the semester that's two zero two five six seven seven

515
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: zero two eight. And don't forget that there is so

516
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: much more to dig into on our website. There'll be

517
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: a cheap key for Today's life, additional links and resources

518
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Plus you can sign up for

519
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: our newsletter check it out at dope blabspodcast dot com.

520
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: Special thanks to today's guest expert David mcrainey. You can

521
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: find him on Twitter at David McRaney. Also check out

522
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: his book How Mind's Changed. Wherever you get your reading

523
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: materials and you can find us on Twitter and Instagram

524
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: at Dope Labs Podcast. TT's on Twitter and Instagram at

525
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: dr Underscore t Sho, and you can find Zakia at

526
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: z Said So. Dope Labs is a Spotify original production

527
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: from Mega Own Media Group. Our producers are Jenny Rattlet,

528
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: maass Lydia Smith and Izzy Ross of Waverunder Studios. Editing

529
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: and scoring by Rob Smerciak and Griffin Jennings, Mixing by

530
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: Hannes Brown. Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa

531
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: and Alex Sugier from Spotify. Creative producer Miguel Contreras. Special

532
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borison, Yasmine A Fifi, tillkrat

533
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: Key and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega Oh Media Group,

534
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: r us T t Show, Dia and Zakiah Wattley