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Speaker 1: Also media, ah, welcome back everybody to behind the bastards

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Speaker 1: in a fresh, bright new year. Twenty twenty four took

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Speaker 1: me a second to remember which year it was, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's going to be a good one, as

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Speaker 1: long as there's nothing like a presidential election to cause

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Speaker 1: chaos and horror across the land. Anyway, I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to continue not having read the news for the last

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Speaker 1: seven years. And welcome to the podcast our guest, Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Jamie, thank you.

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Speaker 2: For having me back. Twenty twenty four is our year.

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Speaker 3: I think I feel really optimistic. I've been enjoying everyone's

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Speaker 3: in and out lists.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they're talking about most of the time.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the things that people want in I

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Speaker 3: feel maybe signs of permanent brain damage for.

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Speaker 1: The last no care. Yeah, yeah, but it's like with

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Speaker 1: the internet. This year is like that moment when you

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Speaker 1: know that, like when you accept because you've hit thirty

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Speaker 1: that like certain physical problems you've dealt with your whole life, like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's just one's never going to get better, right, Like

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Speaker 1: my back's never going to work the same way again.

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Speaker 1: The Exuma's not clearing up like something like that. That's

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Speaker 1: that's how we are. That's how I feel about social

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Speaker 1: media and what it's done to people's brains in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four. Like, yeah, it's permanent. We're good.

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Speaker 3: There's certain a whole generation of adults that will never

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Speaker 3: quite be able to you know, their critical reading skills

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Speaker 3: were just like kind of demolished, and that won't be

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Speaker 3: a problem for anybody. I feel optimistic. I feel like

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Speaker 3: it's a big it's going to be a big, awesome.

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Speaker 2: Year this time next year.

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Speaker 3: I'm honestly trying to savor the beginning of twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: four because it's going to be so bad.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No, I'm just like, this is.

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Speaker 2: As good as it's going to get. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: share is.

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Speaker 1: Down hill folks. Yeah, ah, good times. Well, you know

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Speaker 1: what's not a good time.

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Speaker 3: Whatever we're about to talk about for three hours, I'm assuming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a sex cult, a child sex cult. Maybe probably

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Speaker 1: not actually, but the story of why probably not and

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Speaker 1: what they probably were is still an interesting story of

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Speaker 1: some people being real pieces of shit. Huh uh huh

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Speaker 1: uh huh uh huh. Yeah, exciting, Jamie, have you ever

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Speaker 1: heard of the Finders.

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Speaker 2: No, I haven't.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, this is a big one. This is a

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Speaker 1: heavy hitter cult. So this is the cult that is

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Speaker 1: one of the origins of the QAnon conspiracy theory. The

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Speaker 1: thirty thousand feet version of the story before we dig

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Speaker 1: into it, is that in the late nineteen eighties, during

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Speaker 1: the height of the Satanic Panic, a couple of dudes

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Speaker 1: and some little kids in a van got called in

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Speaker 1: by a busy body neighbor in Tallahassee, Florida, because she

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Speaker 1: thought the kids looked dirty and that they were probably

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Speaker 1: devil worshipers. And the kids were indeed dirty, and the men,

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Speaker 1: only one of whom was a father to only one

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Speaker 1: of the kids, were members of a group called the

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Speaker 1: Finders that is either a CIA spying operation or just

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Speaker 1: a bunch of weirdos playing games in a house they rented.

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Speaker 1: Impossible to say, it's a little.

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Speaker 3: Beside the point, but I am just like consistently like, Wow,

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Speaker 3: the nosy neighbor is never going to get it right.

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Speaker 2: In terms of what the real alem.

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Speaker 3: Is Like, Oh, it's actually probably uh, save this God.

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Speaker 3: The Satanic's Panic sins are are bottomless.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, interesting. Interesting, So I have taken that logic,

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Speaker 1: Jamie in my own life, and so I will do

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Speaker 1: nothing at all if I hear anything happening in my

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Speaker 1: neighbor's house. You know, if there's screams and bangs in

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Speaker 1: the night, I don't call the police because I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be part of the problem. And sure have

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Speaker 1: I woken up next to a lot of like lines

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Speaker 1: of police tape and house with blood on the front

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Speaker 1: door and shattered windows. Of course, of course that's gonna

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Speaker 1: happen when you refuse to take an interest in your neighbors.

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Speaker 1: But I will not continue the cycle of violence.

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Speaker 3: I would just ask that you stop sending me selfies

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Speaker 3: of these crime scenes because it's been making my life

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Speaker 3: really complicated.

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Speaker 1: Well, Jamie, you just never have an alibi for where

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Speaker 1: you were when it happens. That's one of the fun

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Speaker 1: things about you.

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Speaker 2: It's because I don't leave my house. There's no witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I told the FBI. There's no witnesses,

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Speaker 1: none at all to where Jamie was on the night

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Speaker 1: those people were killed. Those people were killed with the

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Speaker 1: hammer that Jamie had purchased earlier that day.

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Speaker 3: It was bedazzled and everything, it was damning.

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Speaker 2: It was damning what happened to me. I was set up.

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Speaker 3: I already this story is, you know, starting horrifically, and

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Speaker 3: it also is feels like the beginning of a series

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Speaker 3: of unfortunate events novel or a well meaning neighbor u

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Speaker 3: and misses in a really horrific way.

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Speaker 1: Because it's the reality of what's happening these kids. It's

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Speaker 1: not great, but I wouldn't call it horrific. It's like

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Speaker 1: maybe slightly above a normal level of child neglect for

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, like not massively, maybe a bit higher

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Speaker 1: than average, but like if the things my gen x

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Speaker 1: like relatives bragged about when they were kids are true,

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Speaker 1: this was not. These kids were not much worse off

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Speaker 1: than a lot of kids in that period of time,

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Speaker 1: maybe a bit in terms of parental neglect, but it's

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Speaker 1: not a story of child molestation. However, it is absolutely

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Speaker 1: a story of child molestation because the Satanic panic is

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Speaker 1: again at its height, and everyone in America immediately assumes

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Speaker 1: these people are child trafficking children all over the world

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Speaker 1: for a network of shadowy at wealthy individuals, right, Like

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Speaker 1: that's what this becomes, this massive and it burns out

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Speaker 1: because we don't have the Internet. It burns out in

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Speaker 1: about a year, but people who are conspiracy kind of

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Speaker 1: minded individuals never forget it. And so a lot of

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Speaker 1: what is in this story has formed some of the

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Speaker 1: foundational lore for Q and On. And there absolutely is

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Speaker 1: some really shady shit going on here. It's just not

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Speaker 1: the Q and On side of things. But we will

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Speaker 1: be talking about our old friends, the CIA, So don't worry.

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Speaker 3: Oh good, I am, like, I mean, just right away,

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Speaker 3: it's like it sounds like, of course QAnon was sort

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Speaker 3: of glom onto a story like this, because it's like

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Speaker 3: taking something that there is a genuine cause for concern

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Speaker 3: and blowing it out into a global conspiracy instead of

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Speaker 3: like let's get these individual children some resources maybe, which yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, even that's because again this is happening in Florida,

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Speaker 1: So even that's complex. Now, yeah, you ready to ready

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Speaker 1: to begin?

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Speaker 2: Is that not beginning?

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Speaker 1: Well we have begun.

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Speaker 2: We already have some dirty kids in a van. I

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Speaker 2: assumed we had started.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well we're actually going to start several decks

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Speaker 1: aides earlier, many decades earlier, with Marion David Petty. He's

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Speaker 1: going to be the guy who starts this cult, the Finders,

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Speaker 1: and he was born in Culpeper, virgin I A on

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Speaker 1: December twelfth, nineteen twenty. Culpepper, at the time was a

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Speaker 1: somewhat sleepy town seventy miles from the capitol. It was

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Speaker 1: conservative and I would probably say dull. There was very

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Speaker 1: little in Petty's family background to suggest he would become

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Speaker 1: anything like what he winds up as his mother, Virginia

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Speaker 1: and his father David both have long lives. They seem

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Speaker 1: to have been like pretty comfortable, like middle class, maybe

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Speaker 1: upper middle class. The families largely German. Most of their

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Speaker 1: ancestors were carpenters, although Marian's grandpa's a grave digger. Nice,

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Speaker 1: probably good for your cardio. Yeah. As a little kid,

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Speaker 1: there were signs that Marian was peculiar and possessed of

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Speaker 1: a strange sort of charisma that made other kids want

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Speaker 1: to follow him. He organized a small gang of local

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Speaker 1: children to go grave robbing and an abandoned cemetery near Arlington. Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: they are stealing human remains very right out the bat.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, why remain? I thought they were stealing, Like, what.

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Speaker 1: Else do you steal? It? A grave?

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Speaker 3: And when I was a kid, I would think about

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Speaker 3: stealing stuff from gravesites sometimes because they would have toys just.

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Speaker 1: Dead little children. You are willing to steal a dead

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Speaker 1: child's toys.

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Speaker 2: I do remember.

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Speaker 3: I have a vivid memory of seeing like a Cinderella

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Speaker 3: doll and being like, she's not using it, which is

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Speaker 3: but not now, Jamie, you can't say these sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: But I'm like, just in the utilitarian sense, I should care.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, wow, okay, well no, they are not stealing dolls.

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Speaker 1: They are actually stealing bones from the gravest.

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Speaker 2: Keep that in. I want them.

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Speaker 1: The grave robbing is one of those things if an

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Speaker 1: adult is grave robbing, right, If you get an adult

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Speaker 1: stealing people's bones from a graveyard, that's immediately creepy. If

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Speaker 1: there's a little kid who's organizing his friends to steal bones,

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Speaker 1: and to me, that's kind of dope. I think that's

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Speaker 1: kind of charming.

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Speaker 3: I'm kind of and honestly, if I am a dead guy,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, let them cook, Like what are they up

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Speaker 3: to from the great beyond?

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of like approving of this. I like it.

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting and already it's like, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time I'm hearing of this man ever.

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Speaker 3: But it's you know, a lot of weird kids come

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Speaker 3: up the lower middle class unexpectedly.

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Speaker 2: It's a real danger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah no, and it's also a danger that they will

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Speaker 1: steal your skull after you have passed on. So the

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Speaker 1: initial impetus for like all of this corpse desecration seems

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Speaker 1: to have been that he's got this like club that

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Speaker 1: he's formed with these kids. It's like, you know, a

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Speaker 1: child gang, right, and he wants to have a human

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Speaker 1: skull that he can sit in the middle of their meetings. Right.

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Speaker 1: Their club is kind of it's very Calvin and Hobbes

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Speaker 1: type situation, Like they've got like a little secret society

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Speaker 1: for kids, and these are I think mostly you know,

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot of media for nerdy kids in

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Speaker 1: the UH in nineteen twenties, right in the early twenties.

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Speaker 2: Why he had to steal a skull.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So he and his friends are like these kind

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Speaker 1: of nerdy kids and they're they're probably reading pulp magazines,

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Speaker 1: they're hanging out in the night, they're doing magic rituals,

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Speaker 1: and they want a skull for their magic rituals.

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Speaker 3: This is again kind of like this is like the

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Speaker 3: furthest limits of little stinker behavior.

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Speaker 2: I think we're really pushing.

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Speaker 1: The he's goonies maxing pretty hard right now, so let's

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Speaker 1: going to reel them in. Yeah. So the primary difference

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Speaker 1: between Marion and his friends and that skull and countless

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Speaker 1: other groups of weird, nerdy kids interested in the occult

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Speaker 1: is that Marian had absolute problem breaking the law.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot more kids who would have done this

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Speaker 1: if they had the hutspa to rob a grave. But

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Speaker 1: you know, that's that's Marian, and it says a lot

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Speaker 1: that he's able to convince a lot of other little

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Speaker 1: kids to go grave rubbing with him.

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Speaker 3: The cadence of what you just said was very hustle culture.

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Speaker 2: Like maybe if you got.

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Speaker 3: Your ass up and went to the graveyard, you would

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Speaker 3: be leading a cult.

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Speaker 1: I do periodically when I'm like running and listening to

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Speaker 1: different like workout mixes, I'll get one that's like because

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Speaker 1: I just want a bunch of random songs cut together

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Speaker 1: like a four or four beat or some shit. But

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Speaker 1: you'll catch one that's like they're they're putting the music

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Speaker 1: to like clearly I don't know who it is, but

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Speaker 1: some like real estate influencer yelling at you about never

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Speaker 1: giving up. It's how to achieve.

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Speaker 3: I went through a dark hour of the soul this summer,

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Speaker 3: and I was going to a lot of cycling classes

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Speaker 3: in Maine, so just take that in. There was at

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Speaker 3: one of the classes there, I forget if I told

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Speaker 3: you about this, they were playing a techno remix of

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Speaker 3: the Kavanaugh hearing.

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Speaker 1: He told me.

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Speaker 2: I was just like, here, I have to get out.

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Speaker 2: I have to go home, like I don't know what I'm.

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Speaker 1: Doing here now, Jamie. Editorially in this techno remix, is

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Speaker 1: it does it come down more pro or anti kafan Off?

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Speaker 2: It's very vague, I would say it is.

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Speaker 3: It's completely ambivalent, and you're in it, like I mean,

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Speaker 3: to the credit of Portland, Maine. Every person in the

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Speaker 3: class was looking around like there's no way, there's no

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Speaker 3: way that this is playing.

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Speaker 2: And then the woman, you know, the woman in the

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Speaker 2: friend is doing what all the cycling instructors do, which

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Speaker 2: is like God needs you to you know, bike And

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Speaker 2: it was I think about it all the time. That

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Speaker 2: was a clearer. I was like, I don't I have

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Speaker 2: to get out of here.

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Speaker 4: With all My response was do I need to come

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Speaker 4: get you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah in the morning, coming hot with the cap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, I dabbled it. I fucked around

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Speaker 2: and I found out.

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Speaker 3: It really is just like all of the bad sketch

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Speaker 3: comedy about spinning.

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Speaker 1: It's like showing up for a hot yoga session and

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Speaker 1: right when it starts to get intense, they put on

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Speaker 1: the Nixon tapes. You're just hearing all of them and

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Speaker 1: butter into your fucking ears sweat.

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Speaker 3: It's taking my chest tightened to even think about it,

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Speaker 3: Like it was just like brutal.

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Speaker 2: So I forget why that came up, but it felt

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Speaker 2: good to get off my chest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody remembers. But Petty is stealing skulls, right, He's

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Speaker 1: got his kids, they're doing their little occult rituals. He says.

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Speaker 1: The skull is there specifically to remind his friends of

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Speaker 1: their mortality, which is great. Little kids need to know

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Speaker 1: that they too will die more often. I think we

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Speaker 1: should always be telling children that.

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Speaker 3: I really, you know, never forget the first time you

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Speaker 3: heard Memento Maury and it.

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Speaker 1: Really hit Yeah, it really. That is actually where this goes.

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Speaker 1: Because in the interview where I found him talking about

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Speaker 1: it's a book, actually where I found him talking about

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Speaker 1: this skull. He follows, like is introducing this concept with

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Speaker 1: everybody would be better off if they did that every day.

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Speaker 1: Y'all ought to get a skull and put it up

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the circle when you have a meeting. So, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: I want to go expense. I know where I can

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Speaker 1: get one in Paris. I have met the guy. So

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna need about thirty four hundred dollars to

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Speaker 1: get a human skull.

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Speaker 2: The school is that the okay, first of all, the skull.

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Speaker 1: Guy, yeah, you can. You can find a lot of

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Speaker 1: skulls in the catacombs. And so if you're already selling

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Speaker 1: ketamine in Paris, you probably know the skulls.

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Speaker 4: Realy good that you clarified, because being like, hey, I

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Speaker 4: know a guy who knows where to get the skulls.

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Speaker 1: He does know where to get He's shown me several

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Speaker 1: He quoted the price. I didn't buy it. I don't

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Speaker 1: buy human remains yet, but.

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Speaker 3: I really, I really am like surprised that the price

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Speaker 3: is that high.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I was a tourist in this situation.

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Speaker 1: He may have just been trying to like fleece me.

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Speaker 1: He may have just been sizing me up and being like,

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Speaker 1: I bet I could get this. I'm sure these are

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Speaker 1: flexible prices, right, That's the way I always didn't talk.

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Speaker 2: He could have talked him down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably could have if I'd wanted to buy

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Speaker 1: human remains that day.

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Speaker 3: He wanted that on record that you were haggling over

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Speaker 3: the skull you were buying.

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Speaker 1: Shall we if information comes out later that I own

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Speaker 1: human remains for recreational purposes, You're not allowed to judge

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Speaker 1: me because I'm not saying I wouldn't do it. I'm

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Speaker 1: saying I didn't like to have in your house to

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Speaker 1: look at.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, I own Taxiderby in my house.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but that's a people. Because that's cool.

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Speaker 3: Let's just say I have taxiderby of my house, so

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Speaker 3: oh boy, it's a bird.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, he took a class, get over it. It was

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Speaker 4: very academic.

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Speaker 2: I'm a searcher, I'm a hobbyist.

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Speaker 1: Uh huh, you're a finder. Well maybe not okay, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's his first His first fun anecdote is he convinces

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Speaker 1: some kids to desecrate human remains. And this is going

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Speaker 1: to be like a trend for him, right where the

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Speaker 1: first version you hear of what's happened, like as a

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Speaker 1: young boy, he stole human remains. It's like, well, that

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Speaker 1: could be pretty fucking wild, and he's like, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was basically we were playing magic and it thought it

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Speaker 1: would make the room look cooler. And it's like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I understand that, like the child logic, there is not

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Speaker 1: sinister you know, it's not something that's accessible to most

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Speaker 1: children today.

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Speaker 3: But it's like as like, yeah, if you're a kid

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Speaker 3: interested in the occult and there's skulls around all over, fortunately.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I see it.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's necessarily a sign of evil quite yet.

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Speaker 1: No, No, it is a sign though that he's very

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Speaker 1: good at talking other people into things. Yes, So, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of little kids in the nineteen forties the

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Speaker 1: Great Depression, Petty dropped out of school well before graduating.

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Speaker 1: He only makes it to the ninth grade, which is

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Speaker 1: not uncommon for young men, and my grandpa only made

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00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,080
Speaker 1: it to like the eighth grade just because, like the

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00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,240
Speaker 1: economy is so dire, you have to go work or

335
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Speaker 1: your family will starve. But in Petty's case, at least

336
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Speaker 1: he would claim and nearly all of our sources on

337
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Speaker 1: his childhood. Basically one hundred percent of it is him.

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Speaker 1: So take all of this, even the skull story, with

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00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,520
Speaker 1: a grain of salt. But he would insists that I

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Speaker 1: didn't He didn't drop out because of hardship, but because

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Speaker 1: he made a choice to not go to school anymore. Quote,

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Speaker 1: I consider my whole life in education, and that all

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Speaker 1: I do is work on my education. I dropped out

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Speaker 1: of school because it was interfering with my education. So

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Speaker 1: that's his claim. Decades later, it's unclear. He says he

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Speaker 1: joined the army at thirteen right after this, and some

347
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 1: of the interviews he's given, the timeline he gives makes

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Speaker 1: it look more like he in the earliest he would

349
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Speaker 1: have joined as like sixteen, which is not uncommon. And

350
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Speaker 1: we're talking World War Two. A lot of sixteen year

351
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Speaker 1: old Americans while.

352
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Speaker 2: In the army, they're taking whomever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they are not discriminating hardier. Yeah. It is hard

354
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Speaker 1: to prove exactly. And this is by the way, Petty

355
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: is actually before because this would be like thirty three,

356
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Speaker 1: so he's World War two has not started for him yet.

357
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Speaker 1: It is hard to prove what he did. Uh, he

358
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 1: definitely served in the Armed forces, and it's not weird

359
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 1: that in this it's not it is weird. It's not

360
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 1: impossible to have served as a thirteen year old in

361
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Speaker 1: the US Army at this period of time. The youngest

362
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Speaker 1: World War Two era serviceman is believed to have been

363
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,200
Speaker 1: Calvin Graham, who enlisted from Houston after Pearl Harbor at

364
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Speaker 1: the age of twelve. So somebody he is not claiming

365
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Speaker 1: to be the youngest person who joined the US Army

366
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Speaker 1: in this roughly this period.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a toss up because it like, I have

368
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Speaker 3: no reason to not believe that the US would accept

369
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Speaker 3: soldiers that young, and I also it also feels very

370
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Speaker 3: cult leader origin story he's made.

371
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Speaker 1: And again I hear there are like two distinct versions

372
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 1: of his timeline you get, and one of them pushes

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Speaker 1: everything forward like three or four years, which would mean like, yeah,

374
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Speaker 1: he joined in the late thirties when he was like

375
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Speaker 1: sixteen or seventeen, which is not at all uncommon in

376
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Speaker 1: this area. That said, he claims thirteen. And you know,

377
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Speaker 1: it's interesting because both because as you said, this could

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Speaker 1: be kind of a cult leader story. But the thing

379
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 1: that I think might say the most about him, whether

380
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 1: or not it's true. Is how he claims he convinced

381
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 1: his parents to let him join the army right at

382
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,399
Speaker 1: the age of thirteen, which is that he leaves a

383
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,920
Speaker 1: newspaper clipping on the dining room table so that they

384
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: like find it when they come in for breakfast. And

385
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 1: it's a story about a little kid who like got

386
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 1: angry at his parents for not giving him something, and

387
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 1: so he murdered his father. And he was basically like,

388
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,360
Speaker 1: because I was such a good kid. When they saw this,

389
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: they realized like how strongly I felt, and let me leave.

390
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Speaker 1: But that's that's a pretty manipulative at the very manipulative

391
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 1: or you want us to believe you were manipulative. Either way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like there, I can see the five D chess.

393
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 2: But it also why would you say that? Why would

394
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 2: you say that? Thoughts?

395
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's he has he has a real a lot invested.

396
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 1: He's one of these guys. He's the most like want

397
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 1: to be chess master type dude of any cult leader

398
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 1: I've seen, Like he wants to be the three D

399
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: chess guy very badly. Yeah, and I think that's why

400
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 1: he tells this story. Whether or not it's true, it

401
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: also could be true because like he really likes to

402
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: make elaborate, weird threats to compel people's behavior, and this

403
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 1: is a lifelong thing that he does, so you know, maybe.

404
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,679
Speaker 3: Maybe okay, yeah, there mean, I'm hearing a lot of

405
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 3: unhinged stories that are that are a hard maybe yeah

406
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 3: does a.

407
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 1: Lot of these stories come from a book called The

408
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 1: Game Caller, which you'll understand that term later. It's about

409
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 1: Petty and it's written by a former cult member who

410
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 1: like left and had a big lawsuit with him. But

411
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,960
Speaker 1: also they kind of were frenemies because he would whenever

412
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: journalist would talk to me, like I actually like him

413
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 1: a lot. He's just fucking me on this, so I

414
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: got to assume him. He writes a book after the

415
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: guy dies. I don't know whether or not we should

416
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 1: trust this either, but it's simply the only source we have.

417
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 2: God.

418
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 3: Cult leaders are such motherfuckers, Jamie.

419
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 2: It's just like a whole myth making game.

420
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 3: And it's yeah, there's like so many sources that are

421
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 3: like okay, so you know, of course, say what you

422
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 3: will about his methods.

423
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 2: There's like an air of that to everyone to like, oh.

424
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people, and with Petty it is

425
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 1: more credible than a lot of like el Ron Hubbery.

426
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 1: His official version of his life is that, at age

427
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 1: like six, he was made a blood brother of the

428
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: Blackfoot tribe for his many contributions to their people, which

429
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: simply didn't in part because the Black tribe do not

430
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: have blood brothers. That's like not a thing there. It's

431
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: like a thing he picked up from books later in

432
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: his life and differently petty. Everything he says, whether or

433
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 1: not it's true, is totally possible. Graves were a lot

434
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: easier to break into back then. People did join the

435
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 1: US Army that young around that time, and children have

436
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: threatened to murder their fathers, So it could all be true,

437
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: is what.

438
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: That's the thing.

439
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I feel like if he is playing a

440
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 3: myth making game here, he is like hedging his beds

441
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 3: smarter than your average cult later.

442
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and I think he was actually so. Yeah,

443
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 1: he decides he joins the army very young. I think

444
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: in either case, he definitely joins quite young and decides

445
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: to make a career out of it. He's going to

446
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,919
Speaker 1: stay in for more than twenty years, and he is,

447
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 1: you know, for his weird guys, He's going to be later.

448
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: He's extremely successful and serious in the army. He's a

449
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: non commissioned officer. And for those of you who don't

450
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: know army stuff, the whole shebang is split, like the

451
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: army is split between You've got your NCOs, which is

452
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: like everything up to like all the sergeants, corporal sergeants,

453
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: all that good shit, right, and then you've got officers, lieutenants, captains, colonels, majors, generals.

454
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: That was not in perfect order, and so like that's

455
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: the way the Army works. I don't know how the

456
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 1: Navy the Air Force works, and I don't care. Marian

457
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: would eventually rise to the rank of master sergeant, which

458
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: is pretty high up in the non commissioned officer ladder, right,

459
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: relative of pretty a pretty small number of people who

460
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: are in the military, who are enlisted become master sergeants.

461
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: It's not the kind of thing you kind of like,

462
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 1: you have to really want to make a career out

463
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: of the army to hit there.

464
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 5: Right.

465
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if he's like an or seven or

466
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: an or eight, but likes he does very well. He's

467
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: a proficient soldier. He worked well within the army, and

468
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: one of the things that suggests is like he was

469
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: reasonably good at like kind of internal politics, right that

470
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: you just getting along with people, doing favors for folks,

471
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: understanding what people want out of you. We know he

472
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 1: gets a tattoo, probably very early on in his military service.

473
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: He just says, while he's a teenager, so I don't

474
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: know there's like a five year period there. Well, yes,

475
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: it's the same tattoo Ben Affleck has. It's a giant,

476
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 1: full back phoenix piece. Yes, indeed, yes, indeed, that's why

477
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: we know it. He got the same tattoo Ben Affleck. Dip.

478
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: Wow.

479
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: I can't believe that Ben Affleck didn't get called out

480
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 3: for copying the Leader of the Finder's back tattoo.

481
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: This is the next plagiarism case that's going to shake

482
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: this country, Jamie. Now that that Harvard shit's done, we're

483
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: going after Ben for his phoenix tattoo.

484
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 3: That guy is uh yeah, that guy is shameless. He

485
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 3: gets away with everything.

486
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: Uh huh, not anymore, Jamie. So one of my favorite things,

487
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: one of the early sources where I eventually found out

488
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: about this book by this cult leader was this like

489
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: weird dude substack that.

490
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: Like it's a great place to start, I don't want.

491
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: To be mean to him because I think he's a harmless,

492
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: weird dude. But in this substack, which definitely he buys

493
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: into some conspiracy elements of it, he describes this as

494
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: an occult tattoo, and like, I don't know that it's

495
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: an ocult tattoo. It might just be a phoenix. I

496
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: don't know that that dude with a substack that was

497
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: one an occult tattoo.

498
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: Is I don't know why this is important to me?

499
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 3: Is it a bad tattoo? Is a tattoo on his own?

500
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jamie, of course, I actually think it's a chest

501
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: tattoo either.

502
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 2: Way either, So I man.

503
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 3: I also, I mean, honestly, down the line, if someone

504
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,959
Speaker 3: were to justify my worst tattoos by saying that I

505
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 3: was that they were connected to be.

506
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: Occult, I would be relieved.

507
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, because the.

508
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: Truth is it was just a bad week.

509
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 6: I was.

510
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: It was a bad week and you decided to sit

511
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: down for seventeen hours while somebody dissed.

512
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: Well because three foot I, I too have been liberated

513
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 3: from the constraints of my own sanity.

514
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, sure, yeah, I uh, I have a I

515
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: don't know I'll figure out what kind of tattoo to

516
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: pretend I have when we come back from this ad break.

517
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: We're back.

518
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: I've got a bear with a gun.

519
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: Oh, bear with a gun would be a good tattoo.

520
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: I've got to wait. Let me show you.

521
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: Oh you've got a bear with a gun.

522
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: I've got a little militia bear.

523
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: Friend of the pod Rory Blank, who's the great cartoonist

524
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: Bone Jail. Yeah, you find them on Twitter. Did a

525
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: stick and poke for me of a little pigeon with

526
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: a switchblade.

527
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 2: Wow, they're cousins.

528
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: This is from a book called The Bear's Famous Invasion

529
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 3: of Sicily.

530
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: Oh nice.

531
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: They take over Sicily by force.

532
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: They could not do a worse job in Sicily than

533
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: the Italian government. So I think that seems like a

534
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: real for Sicily. Yeah yeah, so yeah, Petty you know,

535
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: joins the army, he gets his phoenix back tattoo, he

536
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: does his he's pre aflecking, and the same year he joins,

537
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: he claims possibly the same At the same time when

538
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: he gets his tattoo, he claims that he loses his

539
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,479
Speaker 1: virginity in a whorehouse he just like walks in as

540
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: a thirteen year old he decides, like time for me

541
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: to start having sex, and he walks into a whorehouse.

542
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: Now again, could be a lie. Also, not hard to

543
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: see this hat working out in the thirties Like that

544
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: does not seem impossible.

545
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 3: Depressing no matter which way ends up being true.

546
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, bumpo, yeah.

547
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: Okay, there's no way for this not to be gross.

548
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: But this is him talking about himself as a thirteen

549
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: year old. He describes himself as having a vigorous libido,

550
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: and would decades later claim to have had since the

551
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: age of thirteen sex at least twice a week whenever possible,

552
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: which actually for a cult leader is not high libido.

553
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: But I do I say, twice a week is pretty

554
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: conservative if you're like, I'm the king of fucking well,

555
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 3: not to be critical.

556
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have to whatever. This is what just

557
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: what he says.

558
00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: It's a gross story.

559
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a gross story. He goes to Panama. I

560
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: guess like thirteen or fourteen. He works as an army lifeguard.

561
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: He made voracious use of the library on base. This

562
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: is he's a big reader, always always. He loves reading

563
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: encyclopedias too. He's just like hoovering up trivia.

564
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 4: So maybe that sounds so gross the way you said

565
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 4: it sounded.

566
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, yeah, it's sounded like a sex thing.

567
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: It did.

568
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,239
Speaker 3: But veraciously read encyclopedia.

569
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: Hey, okay, wow.

570
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: Fucking the encyclopedia.

571
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, we both had the same thought, which.

572
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: Is cancel culture.

573
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: Okay, this guy's keeping me on my toes.

574
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: I will say, I'm gonna do yeah, all right. Whatever.

575
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: So sometimes when later talking about his time in the military,

576
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: he would focus on what a great place it was

577
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: for him to learn about human nature. Other times he

578
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: was more flippant, telling one follower, I drank and gambled

579
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: and traveled around and again, not not fun to think about,

580
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: like a little teenage getting like wasted Panama in the army,

581
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: Like that is kind of funny.

582
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, generationally it's all feasible.

583
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, yes, this could very well be accurate. Yeah, he

584
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: realizes in the late thirties world War two is probably

585
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: going to happen, and being a fairly smart guy is like,

586
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: what I don't want to do is be anywhere near

587
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: where people are getting shot at. That doesn't seem very fun.

588
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: So he kind of social engineers his way into being

589
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: a driver for a general in the Army, a guy

590
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: named hap Arnold.

591
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: Now very thirties, name.

592
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: Very This dude couldn't be more thirties and forties, and

593
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: he is also like a very important person. There's no

594
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: air Force at the time, right the late thirties early forties.

595
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: We don't have like an air force. The air stuff

596
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: that our military does is handled by the Army Air Corps,

597
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: and the Army Air Corps eventually gets kind of carved

598
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: out of the Army and becomes the Air Force. Right.

599
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: Happ is the guy. He's an Army general, but he's

600
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: going to end his career as an Air Force general.

601
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: He basically is the guy who like makes the Air

602
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: Force's one of the guys who creates the Air Force, right,

603
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: and he's actually like one of our earliest He's one

604
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: of the first three rated pilots in the history of

605
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: the Air Force. So he is he's like an old

606
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: school pilot. Guy Petty would later claim that during the

607
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: war he becomes this guy's driver, and so his job

608
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: is he's chauffeuring not just Hap but like all of

609
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: these different people, politicians and generals and whatnot, meet with

610
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: him and he chauffers them. Around two so you know,

611
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: during this when he's kind of in his off hours,

612
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: not working, he meets a Chinese man named Joe Chang

613
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: who had immigrated to the United States as a fourteen

614
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: year old. Petty claims in a lengthy interview to have

615
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: learned martial arts from the man, and when asked, well,

616
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: what style of martial arts did he teach you, this

617
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: is the answer Petty gave. It didn't have a name,

618
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: but if you had to call it something, it would

619
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: be jiu jitsu. Now, the basic idea is that you

620
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to be thrown at you, so

621
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: you want to be ready to respond appropriately to anything

622
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: without thinking about it. Chang was a natural. There weren't

623
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: many martial arts teachers back then. And here's the thing.

624
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: Number one, I don't believe that that's nay, like, that's

625
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: very big enough. No, definitely, I'm not saying.

626
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: It's impossible that a kid from China would know jiu jitsu.

627
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: But is it not a Brazilian It's not.

628
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 1: It's not Brazilian. It is a Japanese. There is a

629
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: Brazilian jiu jitsu is a thing, but jiu jitsu is

630
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: a Japanese martial art.

631
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: Your head is Brazilian bow either way, I don't believe,

632
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 3: especially especially the having to walk back like, well, it

633
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: doesn't really have a name.

634
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, that's that's not a thing.

635
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I am sure. One thing I know

636
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: about martial arts guys, be they Brazilian, Chinese, or Japanese,

637
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: is that they love giving names to the things that

638
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: they're doing. They're huge fans of that.

639
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: I've never yeah, I've never heard someone into martial arts

640
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: be like, there's no name for this.

641
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is. I'm just throwing people.

642
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 3: There's no technique, there's no philosophy connected to it.

643
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: I'm just doing whatever.

644
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, if that were the case, no one would

645
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: know the name of Terrence Judo. Anyway.

646
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: That's we'll let it slide. We'll let it slide.

647
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: So I don't believe this entirely. It is true. There

648
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: are some Chinese martial arts that have similarities with jiu jitsu,

649
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: at least according to a random guy on Quorra I read.

650
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: Maybe that's not accurate. I'm not a martial arts guy, not.

651
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 6: The Kora source for the first half hour of the

652
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 6: episode to have.

653
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: Learned Japanese martial arts from this Chinese guy that he

654
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: meets in DC while he's driving around famous people. And

655
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: this is worth mentioning because Joe Chang was a real

656
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: who was a kind of interesting background.

657
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 4: He was.

658
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: You know, he immigrates into the United States as a

659
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: kid as a fourteen year old. He's enrolled in a

660
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: Jesuit academy where he studies journalism, and then he becomes

661
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: a correspondent for a Chinese government owned news service until now,

662
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: well one of the Chinese governments, because this is during

663
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: their civil war, and then you know, he is not

664
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: aligned with the side that wins, right with the communists.

665
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: One of the substacker I found describes him as a

666
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: supposed Chinese agent operating under journalistic cover. Found any real

667
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: evidence that that's precisely the case that seems to be

668
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: stating it. I mean it is like a government so

669
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: yet to that extent, yeah, that makes it sound more

670
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: like school duggery and spying as opposed to like, well,

671
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: this guy's an immigrant. Sounds like he was offered a

672
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: job by one of the sides in that war, like

673
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: putting out information in the US, and then that side

674
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: lost and he continued his life until it ended. I

675
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: haven't found any evidence that this is as interesting as

676
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: people think it is. But it's through Marion's studying with

677
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: Chang that he would meet his wife, Isabelle. She was

678
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: a regular attendee at the same YMCA where he took

679
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: classes during the war. She volunteered to be a hostess

680
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: at the library that he was at. One day.

681
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 2: What does that mean, like, like your librarian. I think, oh,

682
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: that's fun.

683
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, it sounds nice. And she sees

684
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: him reading a book about Korea, and you know, this

685
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: is the forties, and so she comes over and strikes

686
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: up a conversation, and he claims she immediately is like,

687
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: do you want to go fuck? I want someone to

688
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: take my virginity. Let's go back to your place, which

689
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: could be true. Like they're definitely married. I don't know

690
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: how it happened, you.

691
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: Know, Okay. I just feel people.

692
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: Were horny in the forties too, I know.

693
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 2: But I just don't. I don't know. I feel like

694
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: people who are really.

695
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 3: Genuinely having sex like that do not talk about it.

696
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: That's my theory, like if you really you're not I

697
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: don't know. Also, maybe that's just my naive world.

698
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 4: The quote started with he claims, and then I was yeah,

699
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 4: he claims.

700
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: He claims they are they are for sure married. I

701
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: don't know. It is like maybe in the nineteen forties,

702
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: if you're like, hey, I know how to read and

703
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: I know what Korea is, that does put you in

704
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: like the top half a percentile in terms of education.

705
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: It sucks, like yeah, where you have to keep like

706
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: going back and being like, well in context, because my

707
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: grand my grandparents met when my grandfather was cat calling

708
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 3: her from the street. She was like pushing her baby

709
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 3: sister around as a teenager in like a little carriage,

710
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 3: and my grandfather pulled over and said.

711
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: Hey, is that your baby? My god, and she said.

712
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 3: No, and he's like, let's go out tonight. And then

713
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 3: they were married for five thousand years.

714
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is that the And it's like, so yeah,

715
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: maybe she maybe she'd proposed to like three other guys

716
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: and they'd all screamed when they saw the condom because

717
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: they thought it was some sort of devil. And so

718
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: she sees a man who can read, and it's like,

719
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: this is the one for me.

720
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: He'll what a condom is?

721
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, he at least won't. He knows what that rubber

722
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: is a substance. He won't immediately screech that I'm the.

723
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: Devil slim pickens ah.

724
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: Really shitting on our forties ancestors.

725
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not claiming it's that much better.

726
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no no no. I do actually believe

727
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: that rubber is created by witches. But I just think

728
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 1: that's why, you know, the Witchcraft industrial complex is such

729
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: a centerpiece of American prosperity. Anyway, moving on, one claim

730
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: that is consistent across many years of interviews with Mary

731
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: and Petty, and is also something that other people have

732
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: brought up, is that during and right after the war

733
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: years he kind of has he gets lucky, right, he

734
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: has a great wartime experience, great early Cold War experience.

735
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: He's just driving famous people around DC. He is also

736
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: kind of an early swinger. He maintains two apartments in DC,

737
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: and he's basically like anyone he meets that he thinks

738
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: sounds interesting. He's like, hey, you can stay in my

739
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: apartment for free, and so a lot of them kind

740
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: of do. Now. He says this was like a con

741
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: kind of because they would always offer money and there

742
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: were so many people staying in his flophouse that it

743
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 1: worked out to be more than the cost of print. God,

744
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a weird situation.

745
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like these kinds of like I

746
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 3: don't know, these kind of guys are who are just

747
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 3: around like they exist. They get the best stories. They

748
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: do tend to live in houses with too many people

749
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 3: in them.

750
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: That's for sure. Now he is having sex with some

751
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: of these people, but not all of them. In later interviews,

752
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: he would describe this as an exper mental living situation.

753
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: He was basically, he said, I was creating a college

754
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: for myself. Quote. The idea in my head was that

755
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: they were going to teach me something about power, money,

756
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,479
Speaker 1: or sex, which those aren't the only three things people

757
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: can teach you about. Marion. Kind of weird to frame

758
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: it that way.

759
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 3: Well, we've all lived in a punk house at some point.

760
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: This isn't sounding too He said, he's going to teach

761
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: me the drums.

762
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah again he is. He is kind

763
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: of the prototype for a sort of guy we all

764
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: lived with for at least six months back in the

765
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: early two thousands.

766
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and many of them do end up believing in

767
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 3: conspiracy theories on a long enough timeline.

768
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, they are all people you don't want to like

769
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: check in on on Facebook right now. In conversations with

770
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: a follower later related in the book Game Caller, one

771
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: gets the idea that this was though primarily about sex.

772
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: Quote and this is Marion. Three girls lived on the

773
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: floor above, and I also had the run of their place.

774
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: There was plenty of sex in those days. During the war.

775
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: Everybody was sort of in a state of suspension. Nobody

776
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: knew what it was going to be like the next day,

777
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: so things were a lot freer, including sex. And I

778
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: don't know.

779
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: Things things really for your including sex.

780
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 3: I just would like, you know, I went just like

781
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 3: a pull quote from the women upstairs, and.

782
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was the.

783
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 2: No, one never asked them anything.

784
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: But we really can't be like, it's even from a

785
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: modern perspective. You can't just be interviewing the guy who

786
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:32,959
Speaker 3: runs the.

787
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: House, who is your friend and also who you sued

788
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: for stealing a bunch of your money. This is the

789
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: one source for your book.

790
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 3: We have to like, really, yeah, that's okay, Yeah, no,

791
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: but sure the sex was awesome and everyone wanted it

792
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: from him.

793
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yes, that that is certainly his version of his life. Yeah.

794
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: He also would claim later that during this period he

795
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: as regular contact with like very powerful men through his

796
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: job as a chauffeur, which is maybe to some extent true.

797
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: He's also definitely lying, and this is how it's related

798
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 1: by one of his former cult members, a guy named

799
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: Toby Terrell. I didn't just drive half Arnold. I was

800
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: assigned to be Arnold's driver, but when he didn't need me,

801
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: I was available to drive other big wigs from the

802
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: Pentagon and the White House and Capitol Hill. When the

803
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: generals wanted to go somewhere or to have somebody picked up,

804
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 1: they would send me or one of the other drivers.

805
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: During the war, they had even more power than they

806
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: do now. I lived and worked down near Constitution Avenue

807
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: until they finished the Pentagon in about nineteen forty three.

808
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: I drove all of the famous and the powerful. Did

809
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: you ever drive the President, that's Terrell I ask, not

810
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: while he was the president. He says, they've got their

811
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: own drivers. But I drove Truman before he was the president,

812
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: and Eisenhower before he was the president, and Lyndon Johnson.

813
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: Although he didn't like me, plenty of others too. Marshall,

814
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: Patton All of the other generals j Edgar Hoover, just

815
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: about everybody in those days. Why do you think Johnson

816
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: didn't like you? I ask, We weren't in the same

817
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: sort of consciousness like them either. It's almost impossible to

818
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: arrive at any kind of equality with a politician. They

819
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: always have some hidden agenda going on that they think

820
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: will give them more power. It was a great job.

821
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: You overhear a lot of stuff that you can learn from.

822
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: Did they confide in you, I ask, not much, he says.

823
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: Arnold's wife did, but not the men. I would hear stuff.

824
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: If I was driving more than one person, I could

825
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: listen in on what they were talking about. Then I

826
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: would read about it the papers later and get some perspective.

827
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: I heard what they were saying, and I understood the context.

828
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: Then i'd see the way the press wrote about it.

829
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: Quite often it was different. Didn't they try to keep

830
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: you from hearing it? I ask, no, never, he says.

831
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,919
Speaker 1: They never hid anything. They knew that it was safe

832
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: to say whatever they wanted to in front of me.

833
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: Do you remember any of the stuff that you heard?

834
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: I ask. It was mainly psychology, he says, figuring out

835
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: how the human mind works that we're all trying to

836
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: get some power to hold on to it. I had

837
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: opted out of that game. Plenty of times. They offered

838
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: to make me an officer, but I always turned it down.

839
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: I wanted to keep my head clear for learning. If

840
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: you've got some big hidden agenda, like getting a promotion

841
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: or being appointed to some big government job, you think

842
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: different and talk different. You filter everything through your hidden agenda,

843
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: so what comes out is designed to make you look

844
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: like a hero. Okay, that was a long quote, but

845
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot.

846
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, where to begin there?

847
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 3: The thing is again, on its face, do I believe that,

848
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: you know, people speak freely in front of service employees

849
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: because they're fucking assholes and don't view service employees with

850
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 3: the humanity they should.

851
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 2: Sure do I believe that people. But that's not what

852
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: he's saying. He's like, they.

853
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: Taught me lessons about life and told my secrets.

854
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just could sense that I'm kind of that bitch,

855
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 3: and so they like it's really.

856
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,959
Speaker 2: The like, maybe I'm just too tiny, harding piled.

857
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 3: He sounds so much like Jeff Gluy's friend, who was like.

858
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, the CIA hired me blah blah blah, Like

859
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 6: he's just like a weird, cowardly guy who ended up

860
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 6: adjacent to something important once made it out to be

861
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 6: this huge thing.

862
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: It's so like, oh, it's embarrassing.

863
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: Well, and there's he never gives you any details about

864
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: like mostly learned, like what's really this is as close

865
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: as we get, right, And actually, you know, I go

866
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: back and forth on some of this because like some

867
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: of it does seem more credible, right, Like here's him talking.

868
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: He says that, Yeah, here's him talking about half Arnold.

869
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,479
Speaker 1: Arnold was a man's man. He was awkward around women

870
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: and just did what she told him. His wife. All

871
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: of the men liked him and followed his orders. He

872
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: knew how to run a big game. But he was

873
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: afraid of women. I never met any of the generals

874
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: who weren't afraid of women. I drove all their wives

875
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: at one time or another. They all knew me and

876
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: liked me. They could sense that I was on their side.

877
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: And like, I believe part of that, which is that,

878
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 1: like all of these guys are scared of their wives.

879
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: Maybe I get.

880
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: I'm like he's choosing his like if he is.

881
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 3: Lying, which I feel he is like he's choosing, he's

882
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 3: being pretty like plausible. I mean, the fact offered to

883
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 3: be a general like and then even just the vagueness

884
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 3: of like you know when you get into an uber

885
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 3: after a couple of drinks and you start talking about

886
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: the psychology of power and how to get more like

887
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 3: it's all.

888
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: Very It's all I talk about to my uber drivers.

889
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: How do you think?

890
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? And then and then you offer them the chance

891
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 3: to be a general in the in the water Wars.

892
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, like we all have that potential, Jamie, right now.

893
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: True, it's true, It's true.

894
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you know who else has the potential to be

895
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: a power broker in the coming water Wars?

896
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: Oh?

897
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: Whatever, Brutal Stanley cup ad we're about to play?

898
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, ideally, got god willing an ad for Blue Apron,

899
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, blue like the water that is nowhere around

900
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: anymore because we have hired mercenaries to give it all

901
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: Tonesley so that they can make poison anyway.

902
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 3: You know, Island is a little different these days. It's

903
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 3: no longer surprise, it's no longer Ji water.

904
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: We can't do that. We can't do that, the Island

905
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: thing anymore. People believe it there's no more water. This

906
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: is why I was gonna start this episode. It's weird

907
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: that we arrived organically at joking about serial killing, because

908
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: I was going to start it by like really elaborately

909
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: denying that you were involved in like a series of

910
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: murders in Grand Rapids, Michigan. But then I was like, no,

911
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: people might people might think that Jamie is involved in

912
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: a series of murders outside Grand Rapids, Michigan, and you're not.

913
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: People are at just like high rates of media literacy,

914
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 3: off the charts. Everyone's doing great.

915
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So don't google Jamie loftis Grand Rapids, Michigan murders,

916
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 1: common Hammer.

917
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: Don't do it because nothing will come up.

918
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: I swear nothing will come up, although it would be

919
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: pretty funny if a lot of people did that, and

920
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: then that became like the first thing would people type

921
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: your name Jamie loftis raw talk, Jamie loftus murders, Grand Rapids.

922
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: That's that's that's a career maker right there.

923
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 2: Fuck with the Wikipedia page. See if I care, here's ads.

924
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: And we're back. So when I think about this guy

925
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: and his stories of all the secrets these generals for

926
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: sure told him, I think about Bill Cooper. Bill Cooper

927
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: was like a right wing conspiracy radio host in the nineties.

928
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: He dies in kind of a shootout with the police.

929
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: He is the proto Alex Jones, and he during his

930
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: time in the Army around this time, he works briefly

931
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: in the Pentagon, right, and he spent the rest of

932
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: his life being like I saw this document that claims

933
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: this insane thing or that insane thing when I was

934
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: working in the Pentagon. Petty kind of does the same thing, right,

935
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: And he will talk later about like I met all

936
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: of the guys that were in the OSS before they

937
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: became the CIA, Like I knew all those guys. Some

938
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 1: of that's probably true because his wife is works for

939
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: the CIA, Isabelle. She winds up being in the CIA,

940
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: and he's definitely driving officers. Some of those guys would

941
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: have wound up in the CIA, So he does have

942
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: some degree of very real CIA connections.

943
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 3: First of all, I'm mad at you for reminding me

944
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: about Bill Cooper.

945
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 2: But.

946
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: Uncle Bill.

947
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 3: But but so what is his what is his wife

948
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 3: doing in the CIA?

949
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's probably like desk work, clerical work.

950
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: I don't like, I don't think there were a lot

951
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 1: of ladies who were agents.

952
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: You don't think she could ruin the world.

953
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: I think she couldn't know, Jamie, I believe I believe

954
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of Latin American women and children and

955
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: men and old people. I believe she could kill cities

956
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: worth of them if she put her mind to it.

957
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm just not certain because I've never actually heard anything

958
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: about what specifically she did for the agency. It is

959
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: the CIA, right, so, but.

960
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: She but she's working there and he is still doing

961
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: his This is like a very bizarre power couple situation.

962
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's he's in the military, like you know, for

963
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: most of the fifties, the first two thirds of it,

964
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: and she's in the CIA from like fifty two to

965
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: sixty one, right Oka, And yeah, that's that's kind of

966
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: their period of overlaps, like four years where he's in

967
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: the military. She's in the CIA because he joined so early.

968
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: He finishes his career at some point in the fifties.

969
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 1: His son, who knows his dad is kind of full

970
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: of shit, will say that he retired from the Air

971
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: Force in nineteen fifty six, which if that's the case,

972
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: then he would have joined at like the Army at

973
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: like sixteen, because his chunk of the armor becomes the

974
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: Air Force. That's why he leaves a different service than

975
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: he started in anyway, whatever, I think his son is

976
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: probably accurate, and he was pushing things again, that's the

977
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: kind of the kernel of truth. He joins the army

978
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: really young. The lie he joined at thirteen, right right.

979
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 3: You're just like, what what is this adding for your

980
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 3: cult recruits?

981
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 1: That you were just set it up a little bit, Jamie.

982
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: He's just put a little bit spin on it, you know, yeah,

983
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: sank on it.

984
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: He's just putting some Legassi bam on it.

985
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: I miss him, Oh yeah, I do miss Emerald. I

986
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: assume he was swallowed by the earth like everyone else

987
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 1: I remember from that period of time.

988
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: It's true, he actually may have never existed. It's a

989
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 3: it's a complicated conversation.

990
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. There is now a parody of him on Futurama,

991
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: and like two thirds of the people who have seen

992
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: it have no idea what he's based on. Good stuff.

993
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: So I found an article in the Washington Post that

994
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: interviews his son, George, and this is kind of blissfully

995
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: and George doesn't talk about most of his dad's life,

996
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: but whenever George comes in, I'm like, well, this is

997
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: probably pretty close to truth. George seems like he's got

998
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: his head and screwed on straight, and he knows that

999
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: his dad was full of crap. And he told the

1000
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: miss quote. In the nineteen six he was a student

1001
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: of the world who would spend the whole day in

1002
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: the library near the family farm. Then around nineteen seventy one,

1003
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: he gathered his followers in the W Street House. This

1004
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: was the beginning of a new life for him. They

1005
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: found in their communal lifestyle, a more adventurous life. Right,

1006
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: So he he spends several years reading and then he's like,

1007
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 1: he's doing the same. He's got a family farm. It's

1008
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: like ninety acres at this point, he's living there. His

1009
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: wife is sometimes there, but she has a separate house.

1010
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: It's whatever, do what works for you in a relation?

1011
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 3: Yeah sure, I'm like, you know, if had either resources,

1012
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: why not, couldn't hurt Yeah?

1013
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: Why? Yeah exactly? Why not? But yeah, there, So he

1014
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: just starts inviting people to his farm kind of over

1015
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: the sixties, and then in nineteen seventy one he gets

1016
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of followers together at like a rented house

1017
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: and he's like, hey, guys, we're going to be a

1018
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: cult now. We're all got to live together. We're all

1019
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: going to pool our bank accounts. I've got a great plan.

1020
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: It's going to be cool and a lot what.

1021
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 3: A bummer house meetings, Like No, I knew.

1022
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: I knew it was too good to be true.

1023
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: Like it says a lot about the early seventies that

1024
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: it seems like most of the people who are like

1025
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: around him are like, yeah, right, well, I.

1026
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: Mean, honestly for that, I've not done worse.

1027
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 3: But like, you know, for a good living situation, you'll

1028
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 3: really can see quite a bit. Had I had a

1029
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 3: place in like a beautiful like I had my own bedroom.

1030
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: It was like a three person.

1031
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 3: Apartment in Boston, and it costs four hundred dollars a month.

1032
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 3: And the landlord was like, the only caveat is that

1033
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 3: if the police come to the apartment, you have to

1034
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 3: say that you're my daughter.

1035
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 6: And I was.

1036
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, all right, you know, and they never showed

1037
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 3: and it was and I lived in Bliss for no

1038
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 3: money for two years.

1039
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 2: It was awesome. Who knows what he did, I'll never know.

1040
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 3: We all just had There were three women who lived

1041
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 3: in that apartment, and we all had to agree that

1042
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 3: we would say we were his daughter.

1043
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: I think I think he murdered his daughter, is what.

1044
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: I think.

1045
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 2: He just needed three Caucasian women in there.

1046
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, to three women who all looked close enough like

1047
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: his daughter around.

1048
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 2: So we did, showed up, we did all.

1049
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 3: You know, we were all kind of tall brunettes. We

1050
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 3: just didn't talk about it.

1051
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: Like anyway, Sure, he'll agree to a lot. We're done. Look, look, if.

1052
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: You're listening in right now, you do the same thing

1053
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: next to Mit.

1054
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 2: Are you joking?

1055
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 3: It was like me and two MIT students that were like,

1056
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 3: well he certainly did something, yeah, but hard to say anyways.

1057
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So he says, hey, guys, we're going to do

1058
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 1: a cult in nineteen seventy one. And you know, because

1059
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: all the reading he's done, he's developed this real, this

1060
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 1: fascination with futurism, right, and he's also he's equally interested

1061
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: in like kind of pop a cult shit, the stuff

1062
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: that's going to become new age. Right, this is kind

1063
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: of right at the birth of New Age, and so

1064
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: he is particularly obsessed with the writings of Carlos Castaneda.

1065
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: Now a lot of people are probably familiar with carl

1066
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: the Don Juan books, Right, So Carlos cassned these are

1067
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: like nineteen sixties. They come out, chronicles of mystic self

1068
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: exploration that are kind of one of the inciting incidents

1069
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: of the New Age movement. Yeah, Castaneda was He's this

1070
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,959
Speaker 1: Peruvian writer who comes to the United States and gets

1071
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: a doctorate in anthropology from the University of California, and

1072
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 1: he writes three books, starting with the Teachings of Don Juan,

1073
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: which he claims are a faithful representation of his apprenticeship

1074
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: of a traditional shaman of the Yaqui people in northern Mexico. Right,

1075
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: that he goes and lives with this Yaqui shaman sorcerer

1076
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: fell at Don Juan, who teaches him a bunch of

1077
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: mystical stuff, right, and then, as you know, he does

1078
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: get a doctorate in anthropology. He's like writing about this

1079
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: experience he had as an anthropologist. He actually writes these

1080
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: as part of his doctoral program at the University of California.

1081
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: I hate that I knew where he went to school. Yeah,

1082
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 2: oh yeah, do U c l A.

1083
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: Yeah he sure did, baby, he absolutely did. Now you

1084
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: would think if you're a real anthropology program at a

1085
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: real college, which we can all agree u c l

1086
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: A is not. You would check the work of a

1087
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: doctoral student, one presumes, right. I feel like that's part

1088
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 1: of the point.

1089
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 2: You would think, you know u c l A. Will

1090
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 2: UCLA ever answer for its crimes? Answer? No, half the

1091
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 2: camp like their baseball stadium is on, like veteran owned

1092
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 2: land whatever, They're.

1093
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 3: Okay, So so there there. Wizards are real at.

1094
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 2: U c l A.

1095
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: Wizards real, yes, more or less Jamie. And again, I'm

1096
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: not speaking anything about actual yet key beliefs, because Castaneda

1097
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 1: is not either. This is just a book that he writes.

1098
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: It becomes immediately successful. Uh, and it is. It is beloved,

1099
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 1: it's you get some interesting Depending on what year you're reading,

1100
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: people talking about these books very different responses. There are

1101
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: some respected academic figures who love Castaneda's work, but these

1102
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: are also all drug guys, right. Their expertise is not

1103
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: anthropology or the yaki, It is mushrooms. In the case

1104
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: of Gordon Wasson, right, he's like a guy who really

1105
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 1: likes his fucking mushrooms.

1106
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 3: And he is there and is there a more seventies

1107
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 3: thing to do than to make a best selling book

1108
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:37,839
Speaker 3: based off of an actual belief system that you've heard of, Like.

1109
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's fun. So yeah, these

1110
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: are you know, kind of like our buddy Petty. His

1111
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 1: his lies. Castaneda lies are not like super lazy, like

1112
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: there's usually degrees of real knowledge in them, are like

1113
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: little pieces of it, and then he just spins it

1114
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: to make kind of the Hollywood version. But he's also

1115
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: a playerist. He plagiarizes large chunks of this. There's a

1116
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: bunch of inconsistencies in it. All of this gets found out,

1117
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: but it does take a while. It's harder to like

1118
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: spot this stuff back then there is.

1119
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: No Huy to drop a nuclear.

1120
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: Bomb, Carlos. It's also worth noting that anthropologists who have

1121
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: spent time with Yaki people uh will note that the

1122
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: books contain absolutely no there's no use of Yaki vocabulary

1123
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: anywhere in there, Like yeah, he just does not use

1124
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: any of the words that they use, which is suspicious

1125
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: for a book of anthropology. Nothing, yeah, for.

1126
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 3: Your doctoral thesis, what do you Okay?

1127
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: Okay, I always love talking about Castaneta, but like my

1128
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 1: point is that these books that inspire Petty are full

1129
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 1: of shit, but he loves them and they inspire him

1130
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: to create all of these arcane rules and vaguely occult

1131
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: rituals for his hanger on. And he's basically the way

1132
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: he frames this is like this is a learning community.

1133
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: You're all coming here to like learn more about yourselves.

1134
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 1: And I'm here. I'm not really even the leader. I'm

1135
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: the student. I'm going to learn from all of you.

1136
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: You know, We're all going to like teach each other, right,

1137
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: And he does a lot of kind of classic cult things.

1138
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: He's at his farm. It's like known as a place

1139
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: in the area. You can get a free organic meal

1140
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: anytime you go there. So like a lot of drifters

1141
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: pass through, and like if he finds them interesting or

1142
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: if they'll do what he says, they kind of become

1143
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: part of the group. Although while those people that is

1144
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: a factor, a weird number of his followers are like

1145
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: successful and educated. There's like PhDs there, there's Harvard graduates.

1146
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: There's like businessmen who have like run successful oil companies

1147
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: who are all going to fall in with him, as

1148
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: he's kind of I'll explain what they're doing in a

1149
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: second here, but like it's it's yeah, it's I can

1150
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: see why there was an appeal to it.

1151
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 7: He's basically said that net to get folks in from Yeah,

1152
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 7: it is, and it's we're just going to start talking

1153
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 7: about like what exactly these people are doing because it's

1154
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 7: a little different.

1155
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 3: Ye, Like, how does he get guys who are in

1156
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 3: oil to move into his punk house?

1157
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? Basically, this whole organization, the Finders, which he starts

1158
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: calling in nineteen seventy one, is organized around what he

1159
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: calls a game, and everyone is playing the game who

1160
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: is in the cult? And he Mariann is the game caller. Right,

1161
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: He's basically a DM for their lives. And so if

1162
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 1: you're a member at various points, sometimes you'll all live

1163
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: communally and like do like commune stuff, grow food. But

1164
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: periodically he'll pick a number of people and he'll say

1165
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: you need to go to Japan for six months. Here's

1166
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: the name of a company. I want you to spy

1167
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: on their operations and find out everything you can about them.

1168
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: Or here is a political candidate. I want you to

1169
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: go like research him, or I want you to go

1170
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:56,479
Speaker 1: do this job for two I want you to start

1171
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 1: a company her startup capital, build this company with these

1172
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: two other people. This is the game that you're playing

1173
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: right now, and I'll tell you when it's done, and

1174
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 1: then you'll you'll come back and you'll talk to us

1175
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: about what you learned doing it. Right.

1176
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, because if anything bad happens, it's nothing bad happens.

1177
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,919
Speaker 2: It's just a game. It's just an arg that you're

1178
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 2: living in.

1179
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 3: You can't be you can't be you know, taken to

1180
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 3: court for things you were doing just for a fun game.

1181
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: It's also it's such a it's such an oddly specific thing.

1182
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: But I think the appeal to a lot of people

1183
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: is that, like even a lot of educated successful people,

1184
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: is like, well, you don't have to make decisions about

1185
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: what you're going to do with your life. This man

1186
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: will tell you what your next thing is. And he

1187
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: seems pretty smart, so maybe he knows that this is

1188
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: what I need to be doing with my time. For

1189
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: his wife's part, you don't get great context on her,

1190
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: but she definitely starts living away from him during this

1191
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: period of time, and her view of according to their son,

1192
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: her view of his followers is like these are a

1193
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: bunch of weirdos, Like you're hanging out with a bunch

1194
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: of weirdos, What is wrong with you?

1195
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,959
Speaker 2: I wish I wish more uh more.

1196
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 3: People felt empowered to be like, no, too weird, I'm

1197
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 3: out of here.

1198
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm out.

1199
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 7: I'm out.

1200
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: The CIA wasn't too weird for me, but you are, Mary, Yeah, you're.

1201
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 3: Like, no that I'm gonna I'm going to return to

1202
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 3: the safe embrace of the CIA where everyone's normal.

1203
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: Marion adopts a nickname at this point for himself, the stroller,

1204
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: because he takes he's every day. He'll spend like four

1205
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 1: or five hours walking and like taking notes on the

1206
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: neighborhood that he's in and like everything that happens around it.

1207
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: But he just walks all the time, which is Keith

1208
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: Ranieri was the same thing, where like that was his

1209
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 1: his number one character trait other than being his sex criminal,

1210
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: was that he would walk around all the time and

1211
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: just you bullshit out of his mouth to whoever was

1212
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: forced to follow him. Yeah. Interesting was the Carnaria was.

1213
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 2: Huge on like wandering and like sleep deprivation.

1214
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: Right, yes, yeah yeah. And the chief difference between them

1215
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: is that we have no evidence that Mary and Petty

1216
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: was a sex criminal, although I'm certainly not ruling it

1217
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: out Jamie.

1218
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, based on Okay, yeah, I think we would be

1219
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 3: unwise to rule out so his wife.

1220
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: His wife leaves him.

1221
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: Now not really leaves him, but is not living with

1222
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: him and seems to be kind of frustrated with him.

1223
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: She dies not all that long after this. She doesn't

1224
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: live a super long life. But yeah, so the game. Yeah,

1225
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: they're all playing this game. And he starts calling his

1226
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: group the Finders, and the name was actually based on

1227
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: an old medieval like concept.

1228
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 2: They're literally playing D and D.

1229
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: This is so oh god, they are. They are definitely

1230
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: playing DNB Like eighty percent of this cold and eighty

1231
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 1: percent of Petty's life given his childhood activities, is like O.

1232
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 1: If this kid had D and D right.

1233
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 3: Like, we really gotta we got him on the straight

1234
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 3: and narrow early, he would have just been a prolific DM.

1235
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 1: He would have been going to three and a half

1236
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 1: million dollars from a D and D podcast.

1237
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 3: Fine, breaking it in on Patreon, and it would have

1238
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 3: saved everybody a lot of trouble.

1239
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you can go.

1240
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 2: To the military when you were thirteen in D and D.

1241
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you can't make against it.

1242
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always nice to introduce a liar to D

1243
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 3: and D because you're just like.

1244
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 2: Here, go nuts over here.

1245
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: Enjoy yourself, have fun with this. This is what you

1246
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: need to control yourself. This is your riddle. Yeah, someone's

1247
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: getting it angry about that.

1248
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 3: Well, I don't claim that statement, Robert. I just think

1249
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 3: that D and D is.

1250
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 2: A fun place for liars. That's what I'm going to say.

1251
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: So I want to to talk more about how this

1252
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: game works. I'm going to quote from an article in

1253
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: the City Paper by John Cohen. Rt G I A

1254
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 1: D Ready to go win any direction. It's the salutation

1255
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: or closing found on almost every finder's report, and it's

1256
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 1: the essence of the group. If you aren't RTGI a D,

1257
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: you can't play the game calls and with the finders,

1258
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: everything is a game call. Dress, diet, work, play, travel, marriage, divorce, pregnancy,

1259
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: child rearing, pranks, investigations, even calling games can be a

1260
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: game call. And what that means is that like he's

1261
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: not as this evolves, he's not just saying, Hey, I

1262
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: want you to go to this country and spy on

1263
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 1: this thing for me, or I want you to start

1264
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: a business. He's saying, like, you're only gonna wear skirts

1265
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: you know, from now on until I say, or you're

1266
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: only eating vegetables from now on until I say you

1267
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: can't cook any of your food for six weeks. You

1268
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: have to marry this person. You two should split out.

1269
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 4: So it's like Simon says, but yeah, Simon says.

1270
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 1: Simon says, have a child with this other cult member

1271
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 1: and raise them this way.

1272
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Simon says, but for your bodily autonomy and a

1273
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 3: lot of the.

1274
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: And there are people who leave, but like there's generally

1275
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: a few dozen adults who are like, yeah, why not,

1276
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: let's try.

1277
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 3: What is the timeline on this escalation from like, hey, move.

1278
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 2: Into my punk house to okay?

1279
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 3: But like, how quickly do we get from move into

1280
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 3: my punk house to like Simon says, that your body

1281
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 3: is Mine?

1282
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 1: Kind of starts in the late sixties, the hey, everyone

1283
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: come crash with me, and then by seventy one they're like, hey,

1284
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,479
Speaker 1: we're the Finders, and like by the mid seventies, it's like, hey,

1285
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: you should have a child now.

1286
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So it is like a slow ish escalation.

1287
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's more as I understand it. Yeah. A

1288
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 1: former member, Robert Terrell, who wrote the book that I've

1289
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 1: been quoting from a bit provided more detail. In a

1290
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one interview, Petty used the term pressure cooker.

1291
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: The idea was to explore your own person and discover

1292
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: your own true nature. You can't do that just by

1293
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: sitting at a desk or on a couch in a

1294
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: routine way. You have to have some experiences. So Petty

1295
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: was good at structuring experiences from which you could learn.

1296
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: He called himself the game caller, and what that meant

1297
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: is he'd call a game for you to do something

1298
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 1: where you'd gain experience. Examples of past games include making

1299
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: followers work a temporary accounting job at a law firm,

1300
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: or flying to other countries to spy on companies. Yeah, yeah,

1301
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: I is so mad.

1302
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 3: If I was a cult member, that was like, you're

1303
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 3: going to work an accounting desk job, and like that

1304
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:24,959
Speaker 3: guy got to go to fucking Japan for six months.

1305
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:25,439
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

1306
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to do people's taxes. But it does

1307
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: split up like that. It's interesting because so there are

1308
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: a couple of things going on. Some of this is

1309
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: like very much mid century, you know, sixties inspired, Like

1310
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 1: we're somewhat politically radical and we're willing to, you know,

1311
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: look at you know, very radical cultural ideas like completely

1312
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: changing child rearing or relationship free love kind of stuff.

1313
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 1: They're exploring that. That's a part of this, but it's

1314
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 1: also like, hey, a lot of us are spending a

1315
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: lot of our time LARPing as spies. We are spying

1316
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: on political movements in the area. You know, we're going

1317
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 1: to meetings, we're joining political organizations, we're writing reports on it,

1318
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,959
Speaker 1: We're writing reports on companies around the world. We're doing

1319
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: and one version of the story is we are LARPing

1320
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 1: as spies, right, this is a thing people want to

1321
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: feel important. They want Petty doesn't even tell us why.

1322
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: He just needs the info and the other version of

1323
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: this story so they're doing.

1324
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 3: It with no That was the other question I have

1325
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 3: was like, are they being led to believe that there

1326
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:29,439
Speaker 3: is some sort of perceived endgame or are they just.

1327
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: Doing that Not as far as former members say, they

1328
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 1: were just interested in growing as people and like learning

1329
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: and continuing to play the game.

1330
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 2: He was fine, Free Teddy, Good trips to Japan.

1331
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: Free trips to Japan. You know, Petty is like, this

1332
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: was all part of my learning process as a lifelong

1333
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 1: student of the world. Now, as we'll talk about in

1334
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: part two, they're allegations some of what. You're pretty credible

1335
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: that like some of a lot of some of the spying,

1336
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 1: some degree of spying absolutely wound up on the CIA's desk.

1337
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: Now did the CIA wanted on their desk? That is

1338
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: a question that we're going to we're going to talk about.

1339
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 1: But there are connections there, Like his wife is a

1340
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: CIA agent and he is running an amateur spy ring.

1341
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: So I think you can see the direction things are

1342
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: going to go in in part two to at least

1343
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: an extent. But Jamie, that's part one. We're done.

1344
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 2: Wow, that actually like didn't get as bad as I

1345
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 2: thought it would get.

1346
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: It gets it gets a lot worse in part two.

1347
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:36,959
Speaker 2: Oh few good, I was helping something.

1348
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. This is just set up, baby,

1349
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 1: And now it's.

1350
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 4: Time for Robert to set you up to plug your

1351
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 4: plugg ables.

1352
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jamie, in addition to not even being in Grand Rapids,

1353
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: when whatever happened to those people happened to them, you

1354
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 1: can see just in Michigan. You are also the author

1355
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: of the best selling book Raw Dog you are a

1356
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: co host of the Bechdel Cast and you are the

1357
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: future host. And I actually found this out in a

1358
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 1: tarot reading I did last night of a podcast that Sophie.

1359
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: Can we still not describe the podcast she's going to

1360
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 1: be doing for it?

1361
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 2: I couldn't we conscribe it? Can you do it?

1362
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 6: Oh?

1363
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: You can. It's in a magazine, now, Jamie, you want

1364
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 1: to talk about it?

1365
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called fifteen Minutes. It's on cool Zone, it's

1366
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 2: on Cools.

1367
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 3: I never heard of it, And it's a podcast that

1368
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:36,799
Speaker 3: is going to be about the main characters of the Internet,

1369
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 3: what happened and what happened to them. And I will

1370
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 3: directly be telling you exactly how to feel about all

1371
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 3: of it, each and every week starting in March.

1372
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 1: Now, Jamie, correct me if I'm wrong here, But isn't

1373
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 1: it true that listening to your new podcast on cool

1374
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: Zone is the only way to receive the light of

1375
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:59,560
Speaker 1: heaven after your death and be ushered into paradise.

1376
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 2: That's how That's what Sophie told me. And I have

1377
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 2: to believe what Sophie tells me.

1378
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,600
Speaker 4: I was gonna say, this is a Sophie says situation.

1379
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is well, and also on my on my call,

1380
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:13,759
Speaker 1: I have calls with the Pope every couple of weeks.

1381
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 1: He really he really hit that. He says he's the Pope.

1382
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 1: He really emphasized that to me as well.

1383
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 2: Guy named Francis that is that is.

1384
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 1: I did my verification as a journalist. A guy said

1385
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 1: he was the Pope, and I made sure his ID

1386
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,600
Speaker 1: sent Francis. I'm not responsible for anything beyond that.

1387
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 2: Everything else is from Quora.

1388
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 3: Also, I also want to plug We The Unhoused, the

1389
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 3: show that I'm lucky to be producing. But it's created

1390
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 3: and hosted by Theo Henderson, who is a formerly unhoused Angelino,

1391
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 3: and every other Tuesday, he's covering issues from an unhoused perspective.

1392
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 3: It's sort of hyper local, but I think if you're

1393
01:09:57,439 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 3: unfamiliar with a lot of the issues affecting the unhoused,

1394
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,519
Speaker 3: he's doing a lot of incredible episodes, including coming up

1395
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 3: like a whole roundtable discussion about philanthropy versus direct action.

1396
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 2: And so yeah, check that out. It's on iHeartRadio.

1397
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,640
Speaker 1: If you can believe, well, wow, I can believe, and

1398
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: I am excited to listen, and listeners you should be

1399
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 1: excited to listen to, and you should also, Oh my god,

1400
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: turn the wheel. Turn the wheel. The car's coming right

1401
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 1: at you. That was a mean way to end the episode.

1402
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 5: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1403
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,520
Speaker 5: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia

1404
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 5: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1405
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.