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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. Hey, what are we

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Speaker 3: talking about today, Rob?

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Speaker 2: Oh, we're getting into feasting season here, Joe. So we're

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Speaker 2: gonna do what we've done in the past, devote an

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Speaker 2: episode to food, but not just you know, just any food.

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Speaker 2: In the past, we've talked about dangerous foods. We did

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Speaker 2: several episodes on that. You can find those if you

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Speaker 2: go back into the archives. But this time we're going

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Speaker 2: to be talking particularly about some various feast dishes, some

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Speaker 2: outrageous feast dishes, and then also some sort of related

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Speaker 2: tangential subject matter that's sort of swirling around those dishes.

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Speaker 3: I'm salivating the thought of the beauties and the grotesqueries

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Speaker 3: to follow.

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Speaker 2: Yes, dishes of over indulgence, you might call them, and

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Speaker 2: such dishes exist throughout the history of human feasting. As

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Speaker 2: long as human populations have even periodically experienced surplus and

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Speaker 2: or inequality, there's been room for dishes that simply go

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Speaker 2: above and beyond what seems reasonable. Decadent delicacies occupied the

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Speaker 2: tables of the ancient Romans. We'll mention a few, and

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Speaker 2: of course still to this day we find such dishes

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Speaker 2: on our tables.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but I know you got crankin' on this topic

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Speaker 3: because you were interested in one particular example from history, right.

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Speaker 2: That's right, one that you know. I think I've had

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Speaker 2: like a vague familiarity with for a long time, because

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've seen depictions of it before. I'm

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Speaker 2: really struggling to figure out if I've actually seen a

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Speaker 2: depiction of this in a film or TV show. But

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Speaker 2: it's possible because it's a great way to sort of

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Speaker 2: center what's going on in your setting. But yeah, we're

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Speaker 2: going to turn to fifteenth century year. So the Middle

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Speaker 2: Ages are giving way to the first stirrings of the Renaissance,

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Speaker 2: and it's just prime time to sew a suckling pig

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Speaker 2: and a chicken together and serve it to a bunch

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Speaker 2: of nobles and royals. A lot of great things come

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Speaker 2: out of the Renaissance, yes, but there are some There

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Speaker 2: are some real clunkers that come out of it as well,

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Speaker 2: And this, I don't know, this could be one of them, can't.

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Speaker 2: I have not tried it. I will not be trying it,

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Speaker 2: but it is not impossible that some of you out

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Speaker 2: there have tried it. The addition question is the cock

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Speaker 2: and trice not to be confused with another word that

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Speaker 2: you may find not in a menu from Tutor England,

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Speaker 2: but more likely in a bestiary.

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Speaker 3: That's right, So this other word is cock a trice

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Speaker 3: rather than cock en trice. It's easy to confuse the two.

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Speaker 3: They are phonetically similar, spelled similarly, but different things altogether.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm not going to go extremely deep here because

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Speaker 3: the cock a trice subject will have some overlap with

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Speaker 3: our past discussions of the mythical monster known as the basilisk.

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Speaker 3: These creatures were in many cases, not all, but in

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Speaker 3: many cases treated as the same thing. A cockatrice is

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Speaker 3: sort of a loosely defined monster, usually combining Avian and

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Speaker 3: Reptilian features or associations. Sometimes it is kind of straightforwardly

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Speaker 3: a wivern. It's like a dragon with two legs, no

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Speaker 3: little t rex arms, just the two legs and then

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Speaker 3: two wings and then a rooster's head. It appears in

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Speaker 3: this form or roughly this form in some medieval manuscripts

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Speaker 3: and some heraldry, but in other cases it's described as

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Speaker 3: a kind of fantastically venomous serpent, or as a serpent

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Speaker 3: that hatches from a cock's egg, sometimes after like a

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Speaker 3: cock egg is incubated by a reptile or a toad. Generally,

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Speaker 3: a cockatrice is news. It is a venomous monster or

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Speaker 3: a monster that kills everything around it. Though there is

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Speaker 3: an interesting sort of literary history of this word, because

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Speaker 3: if you go reading the King James translation of the Bible,

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Speaker 3: you will find lots of references to the cockatrice as

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Speaker 3: a kind of beast or venomous monster. A couple of

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Speaker 3: examples I dug up. One is from the Book of Isaiah,

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Speaker 3: chapter fifty nine, verses four to five, which say, none

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Speaker 3: calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth. They trust

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Speaker 3: in vanity and speak lies. They conceive mischief and bring

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Speaker 3: forth iniquity. They hatch cockatrice eggs and weave the spider's web.

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Speaker 3: He that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which

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Speaker 3: is crushed breaketh out into a viper. Common theme you

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Speaker 3: will get in some of the Old Testament books of

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Speaker 3: the prophets, is, you know, comparing wickedness and sin and

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Speaker 3: lack of moral virtue to venomous in and predatory animals,

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Speaker 3: dangerous beasts.

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Speaker 2: So no hatching cockatrice eggs. That's what I'm taking for

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Speaker 2: the scripture.

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Speaker 3: That's not a good thing to do. That you bring

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Speaker 3: forth iniquity. Another good one I found just this one

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Speaker 3: was a little pithier. This is from the Book of Jeremiah,

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Speaker 3: chapter eight, verse seventeen, again the King James translation. It says,

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Speaker 3: for behold, I will send serpents. Cockatrice is among you,

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Speaker 3: which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you,

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Speaker 3: saith the Lord.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, let's stay to the point.

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Speaker 3: They shall bite you. Now. The word cockatrice does not

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Speaker 3: appear in later translations of the Bible that are are

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Speaker 3: better informed about what the original Greek and Hebrew words

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Speaker 3: that are being translated usually mean. The English usage of

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Speaker 3: cockatrice in the Bible traces back to John Wickliffe's English

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Speaker 3: translation of the Old Testament, in which a Hebrew word

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Speaker 3: that probably originally referred to like a snake of venomous

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Speaker 3: reptile is taken as referring to this strange monster which

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Speaker 3: was already sort of in consciousness, in part derived from

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Speaker 3: stories that go back to plenty of the elder and

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Speaker 3: I think we've actually talked about these stories before in

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Speaker 3: our episodes on the basilisk. But the cockatrice also has

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Speaker 3: some interesting etymological confusion in its history because the English

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Speaker 3: word cockatrice is recorded as far back as Late Middle English.

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Speaker 3: It's derived from an Old French term cockatrice, which in

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Speaker 3: turn comes from the Latin calcatrix, So it's not actually

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Speaker 3: related to the English word or the French word cock,

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Speaker 3: which meaning like, you know, a rooster, which that's the

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Speaker 3: imagery we see in like this heraldry, where it's a

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Speaker 3: dragon with a rooster's head or somehow a cock's egg

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Speaker 3: that is hatched in conjunction with reptile interference. Instead, it

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Speaker 3: goes back to the Latin calcatrix, which means she who treads.

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Speaker 3: The Latin verb here is calcare, meaning to tread. So

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Speaker 3: a calcatrix is a female entity who treads. So there's

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Speaker 3: some more word confusion for you, but the main point

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Speaker 3: being that a cockatrice is a monster and a cockin

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Speaker 3: trice is something completely different. It is the food that

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Speaker 3: we're about to talk about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I can't promise that the word is just

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Speaker 2: going to get any easier to digest. But yeah, the

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Speaker 2: cock and trice, to be clear, is a composite dish.

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Speaker 2: So in the front you have a suckling pig and

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Speaker 2: in the back a turkey or capon. Capon is a

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Speaker 2: neutered male chicken. So the result is a feast item

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Speaker 2: of intrigue, as if the folks present for the meal

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Speaker 2: are being served not an animal of the mundane world,

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Speaker 2: but rather some fantastic hybrid that belongs, perhaps in a

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Speaker 2: bestiary alongside the cock a trice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, make you monsters out of our food, a tradition

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Speaker 3: that is not entirely gone, by the way. I'm sure

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Speaker 3: many people listening have seen like viral images of this

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Speaker 3: sort that get shared around the internet. One that very

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Speaker 3: much sticks in my mind is whoever first had the

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Speaker 3: idea to make a face hugger from the Alien series

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Speaker 3: out of like a turkey's body with some crab legs

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Speaker 3: on the side, and then a tail made out of

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Speaker 3: like a stuffed sausage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's send me that photos. It's quite horrifying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes you want to eat them.

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Speaker 2: You know, and you know, even you know, vegans and

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Speaker 2: vegetarians get in on the action as well. I know,

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Speaker 2: in my household. It has become a tradition. On Halloween

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Speaker 2: we make a dish that is known by a few

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Speaker 2: different names. You and I, I think both know it

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Speaker 2: as feet of meat. It has also been called feet loaf.

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Speaker 2: I know Amy Sedaris calls it as such, but essentially

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Speaker 2: it is meat loaf. Were in our case we was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, imitation meat that takes the form of one

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Speaker 2: or two disembodied bloody feet.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful. That's so nice.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I can't be too judging about all

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Speaker 2: this because I totally do it as well. Now, as

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Speaker 2: for the cock and trice here, I looked up some

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Speaker 2: more info on this in a book from Terry Breverton

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Speaker 2: called The Tutor Kitchen, and he goes into a little

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Speaker 2: more detail here mentions that the way you make one

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Speaker 2: of these things is that you first of all, you

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Speaker 2: of course butcher the two animals in question, and then

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Speaker 2: once you've butchered them, you know you've removed everything. You

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Speaker 2: know you don't need to be part of the finished meal,

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Speaker 2: you know how butchering works. You stitch these together, then

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Speaker 2: you stuff it as you would often stuff, you know,

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Speaker 2: various feast items as turkeys are still stuffed to this day,

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Speaker 2: you know, for Thanksgiving in America, and then you roast

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Speaker 2: it on a spit per, you know, the usual treatment

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Speaker 2: of the day. Now. Originally the dish, according to Breverton,

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Speaker 2: was known as cock a griss in this or perhaps

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Speaker 2: catt agriss. And this is combining the words for cock

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Speaker 2: and gris a suckling pig. That being said, it does,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't find much where people are really

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Speaker 2: talking about the comparison between these two words. It seems

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Speaker 2: to me that if the word for the monster cock

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Speaker 2: a trice is at all in some form like floating

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Speaker 2: around in one's vocabulary, then cock in trice is some

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Speaker 2: sort of an allusion to that. But I couldn't find

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Speaker 2: any hard answers on that. There are also various other

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Speaker 2: spellings for the food item here the cock and trice,

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Speaker 2: as well as fifteenth century recipes that lay out the

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Speaker 2: steps to produce one. And this has long been a novelty.

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Speaker 2: It was a novelty when it was served on the

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Speaker 2: tables and Tutor England. And you can look around. You

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Speaker 2: can find various videos online of modern chefs and amateur

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Speaker 2: chefs and streamers recreating it for entertainment purposes and for

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Speaker 2: exploration purposes, like there's nothing you know, there's nothing you

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Speaker 2: know you know off the board occurring in the creation

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Speaker 2: of this dish. I was looking around at various people

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Speaker 2: that were either talking directly about it or sometimes just

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Speaker 2: invoking it. As an example of the latter, I saw

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Speaker 2: a work by a writer by the name of Karen

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Speaker 2: Robber who described or raper, who describes it as performing meat,

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Speaker 2: which I thought was an interesting phrase. Like the meat

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Speaker 2: in this case is not just here for your consumption.

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Speaker 2: One would assume it is also supposed to taste good.

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Speaker 2: But on top of that, it is like the sheer

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Speaker 2: performance of the presentation, which you know that's going to

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Speaker 2: be president a lot of meals, but like it becomes

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Speaker 2: part of the forefront in a case like this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I might have some different terminology that we could

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Speaker 3: apply to this category later in the episode, but I'd

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Speaker 3: say I primarily think of this as stunt food.

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Speaker 2: Stunt food is good. Yeah, Yeah, it's.

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Speaker 3: Food that's not just to be eaten, it's also to

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Speaker 3: be admired as an act.

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Speaker 2: Yes. So Reverenson's book contains numerous other at least from

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Speaker 2: my vantage point, strange tudor dishes. We can all disagree

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Speaker 2: on this, and you know, and ultimately, I'm sure there

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Speaker 2: are examples of similar dishes in various culinary traditions and

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Speaker 2: cultures where it's like totally not weird for you to

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Speaker 2: eat it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, what is weird in terms of

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Speaker 3: food is totally a matter of social and cultural expectations.

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Speaker 3: It's like what's familiar to us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I say it sounds weird to me,

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Speaker 2: it's weird because I'm imagining the tutors eating this. But

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Speaker 2: this particular book includes references to such dishes as sliced

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Speaker 2: cow tongue, pie, boiled badger, boiled viper, swan with blood,

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Speaker 2: and entrail sauce.

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Speaker 3: Oh delicious.

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Speaker 2: This one really gave my wife pause. Cow's utters in

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Speaker 2: mustard sauce. I'm not sure like where like that one

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Speaker 2: kind of hits in various ways, like when it's the utters,

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Speaker 2: but then also the mustard sauce. I really have a

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Speaker 2: hard time picturing.

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Speaker 3: This cow's utters in sweet and sour sauce I think

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Speaker 3: would work better.

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Speaker 2: And then also multiple peacock recipes, yes, peacocks.

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Speaker 3: Now, wait, now that I'm thinking about it, why don't

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Speaker 3: any like of these fast food chains have a dipping

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Speaker 3: sauce for your nuggets that is blood and entrail sauce.

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Speaker 2: I mean they could with the right market, you could

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Speaker 2: call it that and people would go nuts for it.

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Speaker 2: But these peacock recimees, Oh my goodness, I think I

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Speaker 2: in the past I'd run across examples of people eating

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Speaker 2: peacocks as a feast food, but I often forget about

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Speaker 2: it because I end up. You know, you see peacocks everywhere.

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Speaker 2: They've spread. They've been introduced rather all over the world

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Speaker 2: from the Indian subcontinent, so most of you, I think

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Speaker 2: I've probably seen one. You know, they walk around the

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Speaker 2: males of the spece. These the peacocks, you know, look

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Speaker 2: dazzling with their feathers, and then of course you have

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Speaker 2: the pea hens, the females. More on the particulars in

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Speaker 2: just a second, but yes, recipes for this include the

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Speaker 2: gilded peacock. This is a sixteen sixty one recipe that

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Speaker 2: calls for the spit roasted bird to be covered with

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Speaker 2: gold leaf and recovered in the peacock's skin and feathers

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Speaker 2: after it's been for the So you butcher it, you

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Speaker 2: set aside those gorgeous feathers and its skin, and then

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Speaker 2: you put it all back together with gold leaf quote

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Speaker 2: for recreation and for magnificence. According to doctor John Wex,

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Speaker 2: there's eighteen books of the Secrets of Art in Nature

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Speaker 2: from sixteen sixty one.

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Speaker 3: That sounds like a book by like John d Or Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like it would be alchemical in nature

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Speaker 2: and not about eating.

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Speaker 3: A peacock, not about how to have fun with peacock corpses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense. If you

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Speaker 2: can eat the peacock, you want to admire the feathers.

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Speaker 3: Yes. So.

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Speaker 2: The p foul, as we may more accurately describe these creatures,

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Speaker 2: consist of three different species. There are two asiatic peacocks

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Speaker 2: native to the Indian subcontinent, and there's also a congo

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Speaker 2: p fowl that is apparently actually not a true p fowl.

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Speaker 2: The Indian p foul is the key species for our

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Speaker 2: concerns here, notable for the splendid mating displays made by

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Speaker 2: the male peacocks that surely everyone has seen. The bird

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Speaker 2: was introduced as a novelty into Europe, traditionally held as

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Speaker 2: being introduced by the Macedonian general Alexander the Great during

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Speaker 2: the fourth century BCE, but something it might have occurred

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Speaker 2: earlier than that. It's an interesting bird in its own right,

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Speaker 2: and we could probably devote an entire episode to it,

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Speaker 2: no doubt, exploring its place, for example, in the history

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Speaker 2: of evolutionary theory, one of the many animals that ends

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Speaker 2: up being invoked in scientific discourse of the day. Instead

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Speaker 2: of all that, though, I want to cut right to

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Speaker 2: some interesting religious contexts for the peacock from Indian traditions,

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Speaker 2: and for this I turned once more to Krishna's Sacred

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Speaker 2: Animals of India. This is from Penguin Press. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to go through everything that the author shares here,

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Speaker 2: but I want to hit some of the key points.

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Speaker 2: So first of all, the peacock, this is not really

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Speaker 2: religious at all, but the peacock is a national bird

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Speaker 2: of India. Getting into religious traditions, the peacock is held

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Speaker 2: as the animal form of the sky god Indra. Also,

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Speaker 2: it said that Indra granted the peacock its beautiful colors

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Speaker 2: after one of them extended its sale to hide him

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Speaker 2: during a battle with the demon king Ravana. The peacock

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Speaker 2: is an enemy of snakes and represents victory over evil tendencies.

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Speaker 2: And this is apparently based on real life, because peacocks

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Speaker 2: in their natural habitat do eat small snakes. And of

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Speaker 2: course this reminds me a little bit of talking of

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Speaker 2: what we've talked about concerning the Kaka trice and the

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Speaker 2: basilisk oh.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I even mentioned this at the time,

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Speaker 3: but some sources say that the kaokatrice the monster can

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Speaker 3: have a couple of enemies. One is the cry of

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Speaker 3: the rooster, so like the rooster's call can sort of

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Speaker 3: invalidate the cockatrice's magic or banish it. And then another

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Speaker 3: idea is that the weasel is the enemy of the

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Speaker 3: cockatrice and can defeat it.

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Speaker 2: The peacock is also held to be the vehicle of

303
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Speaker 2: the war god Kartaikia. The crown of Lord Krishna often

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Speaker 2: features peacock feathers. It's apparently just generally a common symbol

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Speaker 2: of beauty throughout Hindu literature, often associated with joy as

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Speaker 2: well as Rain and Krishna. The writer here not the

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Speaker 2: mythological figure, also mentions that some traditions hold that Sita,

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Speaker 2: the love of Rama, was born from the egg of

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Speaker 2: a pea hen. He also mentions that the peacock may

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Speaker 2: represent compassion and watchfulness in Buddhist traditions, and that in

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Speaker 2: Tibetan Buddhism there are also connotations of immortality which will

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Speaker 2: come back to in a second, and a symbol for

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Speaker 2: the universal antidote against the poisonous human emotional states. And

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Speaker 2: in Jainism, the peacock feather may ward away evil. And

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Speaker 2: then finally, he also mentions in passing that peacocks are

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Speaker 2: apparently mentioned in the Bible as an import of King Solomon. Now,

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Speaker 2: during the medieval period in Europe, they were favorite inclusions

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Speaker 2: in menageries and gardens, becoming important in European heraldry, textiles

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Speaker 2: and art, and of course they also came up as

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Speaker 2: a prized food item. And yet even as this exotic

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Speaker 2: bird is selected for the dinner table, it retains its

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Speaker 2: novel qualities as well as some of its supernatural and

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Speaker 2: symbolic qualities. So you know, I guess, you know, on

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Speaker 2: the medieval European table and you know into Renaissance times,

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Speaker 2: it's like you can have it both ways. The animal

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Speaker 2: can be I guess, both symbolic and delicious.

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Speaker 3: So like if unicorns actually existed, you could take on

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Speaker 3: some of the symbolic I don't know, purity and holiness

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Speaker 3: of the unicorn by eating its flesh. Maybe.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they would totally have spit roasted a unicorn. Now,

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Speaker 2: some select groups in India also historically ate the bird,

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Speaker 2: and we also have accounts that the ancient Romans enjoyed

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Speaker 2: peacock meat as well as the ostrich and various other

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Speaker 2: items in a Roman work titled on the subject of cooking,

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Speaker 2: a work that is attributed to a Roman by the

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Speaker 2: name of Apicius, though apparently there are two different Apiciuses

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Speaker 2: in the historical record that historians think this might have been.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not sure if we know where any degree

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00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,679
Speaker 2: of accuracy, like who this was that wrote this, But

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Speaker 2: on the subject of cooking, this is in translation. Of course,

341
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Speaker 2: it is stated entrees of peacock occupied the first drink,

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Speaker 2: provided they be dressed in such manner that the hard

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Speaker 2: and tough parts be tender. The second place in the

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Speaker 2: estimation of gourmet have dishes made of rabbit, third spiny lobster,

345
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Speaker 2: fourth comes chicken, and fifth young pig.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So according to this source, peacock is right at the

348
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Speaker 2: top if you cook it right, and you know modern

349
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Speaker 2: American mainstays of chicken and pig like, that's that's just

350
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Speaker 2: down the list. That's after your rabbit and your spiny lobster.

351
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Speaker 3: Wait, beef doesn't even make the list. No love for fish?

352
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Speaker 3: Where's my goat?

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Speaker 2: Whoever Apicius was? The delicacies based on peacock tongues are

354
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 2: also attributed to him, But I wonder if even the

355
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Speaker 2: Romans ever considered such a tutor dish, As listed by

356
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Speaker 2: Breverton in his book as redressed peacocks which seem alive

357
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Speaker 2: and how to make them breathe fire through their mouth.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the listings from Tutor England that

359
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 2: he goes over it. So basically this is a This

360
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: is very similar to the peacock I'm assuming here it

361
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 2: amounts though to a complex First of all, you know

362
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Speaker 2: butchering and then you know spit roasting of said bird.

363
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: But then it's stuffed and mounted, and its skin and

364
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 2: its feathers are added back. And then on top of

365
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 2: everything else, they use some sort of of a fire

366
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 2: effect created via camphor, a waxy, colorless substance that burns

367
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: at a low temperature so like some sort of little

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Speaker 2: pyrotechnic device inside the peacock's mouth so that as you

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00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: serve it, it is breathing fire.

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Speaker 3: Were peacocks thought to breathe fire in life? Or I

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Speaker 3: wonder what this is connecting to.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's just it's kind of like

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Speaker 2: lighting the candles on a birthday cake, right, or you know,

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Speaker 2: a flaming drink. You know, a little fire makes it

375
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 2: even more exciting. And so, yeah, if you're going to

376
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Speaker 2: have an animal with its head on it, why not

377
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 2: have that head spitting fire?

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Speaker 3: Okayya blow out the peacock honey. Yeah.

379
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Speaker 2: Now this leads us to another aspect that we kind

380
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Speaker 2: of touched on very briefly. We mentioned how the Romans said, Okay,

381
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Speaker 2: peacock flesh is the best, but you got to dress

382
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 2: it right, you got to cook it right so that

383
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 2: you don't have to deal with the heart and the

384
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 2: tough parts. You can make those parts tender. There does

385
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 2: seem to be a lot of discussion about just how

386
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: tough peacock meat can be, and this gets into this

387
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 2: idea that you also see sort of reverberating through even

388
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Speaker 2: ancient literature, the idea that the peacock's flesh did not rot,

389
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Speaker 2: that it was incorruptible.

390
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 3: This is getting more and more unicorn by the moment.

391
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,239
Speaker 2: It is. Really these are attributes you would expect to

392
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 2: be applied to the unicorn or something like that, and

393
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 2: not a peacock, which, you know, It's like, I grew

394
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 2: up knowing people who had peacocks wandering around their homes.

395
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: Like it didn't seem weird at all. It didn't seem

396
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 2: like a magical creature, you know. I mean, it's impressive,

397
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: but not magical.

398
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 3: To be clear, this is not true. Peacock's rot when they.

399
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 2: Die, right, right. But this idea seems to go back

400
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 2: a ways. I've seen it attributed to Aristotle, but I

401
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: don't believe he ever directly addressed it, though I think

402
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: there are some later authors who then kind of like

403
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 2: tried to tried to claim that, oh well, he was

404
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 2: aware of this belief, and perhaps he's somehow alluding to it.

405
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: Writers such as Plenty and Plutarch would have they also

406
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: discussed the bird's links to traditions of immortality. But where

407
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: we really find a firm example of this being discussed

408
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: is in the fifth century CE book on the City

409
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: of God against the Pagans, or the City of God

410
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 2: by Augustine of Hippo. And I'm going to read for

411
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: you here from the Marcus Dodds translation, for who bought God,

412
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: the creator of all things, has given to the flesh

413
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,239
Speaker 2: of the peacock its antiseptic property. This property, when I

414
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 2: first heard of it, seemed to me incredible. But it

415
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: happened at Carthage. A bird of this kind was cooked

416
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: and served up to me, and taking a suitable slice

417
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: of flesh from its breast, I ordered it to be kept.

418
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: And when it had been kept as many days as

419
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: make any other flesh stinking, it was produced and set

420
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: before me, and emitted no offensive smell. And after it

421
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: had been laid by for thirty days and more, it

422
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: was still in the same state, and a year after

423
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: the same still, except that it was a little more

424
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: shriveled and drier. Who gave to chaff such power to

425
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: freeze that it preserves snow buried under it, and such

426
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 2: power to warm that it ripens green fruit.

427
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 3: I don't think I understood that last sentence.

428
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: Well, he's tying it all into the power of God,

429
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: the creator, the chaff and the ripening of green fruit

430
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: that's not directly involved with the peacock's flesh, but.

431
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: It's some context of theological observation. Wow.

432
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: Right, And I have to say this may be the

433
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: single most impressive leftovers inspired theological argument or example of

434
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: all time, just hands down. I can't imagine that there's

435
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: a better one out there where, like Augustine's like, yeah,

436
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 2: I brought some food home from dinner and it didn't

437
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: rot and a year later it's still good. What can

438
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: I say? Glory to the creator?

439
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 3: Imagine if you saw that video I don't know when

440
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 3: this was of like the McDonald's burger that wouldn't rot.

441
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: Remember that, Yeah, I mean similar thing. Right, Glory be

442
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: to God. But anyway, the peacock, in large part due

443
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: to this discussion, but also you know, trailing off of

444
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: other cultural and religious connections, it becomes a symbol of

445
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: not not mere pride as you might expect from watching

446
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: a peacock stroll about, but of Christian eschatology, informed as

447
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: well by medieval ideas concerning their molting and and also

448
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: you know, very real observations that they eat small snakes

449
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: and therefore well maybe they're you know, they're killing and

450
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: eating venomous serpents, and so the peacock becomes a symbol

451
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: of the resurrection in early Christian art. You see it

452
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: in early catacombs and so forth.

453
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: And thus we shall dine upon it.

454
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. It's so interesting that you know,

455
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 2: a bird like this, you know, you know, it's very spectacular,

456
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: and it can take on all of these additional meanings

457
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: and and so forth. But then also, you know, you

458
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: come down to it, it's like, let's put it on

459
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,719
Speaker 2: the dinner table, let's make it look amazing, let's eat it.

460
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: I've never eaten peacock, but I would love to hear

461
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: from anyone out there who has who can testify to

462
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: the corruptibility of its flesh. But also just how does

463
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: it taste if prepared properly. What are your tips for

464
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: cooking peacock?

465
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, if it's if it tends to be tougher than

466
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: your normal poultry, like chicken or whatever. I would imagine

467
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: it's one of those things they do, like, you know,

468
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 3: a long cooking time on like maybe some kind of

469
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 3: peacock equivalent of cocoa vaan.

470
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't even know where you go to

471
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: get peacock meat, officially, because I mean it's not like

472
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: you can't go to like what a fud Ruckers in

473
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties and get a peacock burger like you

474
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: could get like an Ostrich burger apparently, but at any rate.

475
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 3: I bet they got it at Walmart. All right, Well,

476
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: I wanted to come back to something I think we

477
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 3: alluded to a little bit in terms of extravagant meals

478
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: and performing meats. As you mentioned earlier, Rob, Yes, this

479
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 3: is the subject of ingastration, which is the culinary term

480
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: for stuffing one animal inside another. At this point, most

481
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 3: of you out there listening have probably heard of the

482
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 3: famous or infamous urduccan, a three bird or made of

483
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 3: a duck, a chicken, and a turkey, and I've seen

484
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 3: dispute about what order they are stuffed in. Now I

485
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 3: was reading that it's most often a duck stuffed inside

486
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: the body cavity of a chicken stuffed inside the body

487
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 3: cavity of a turkey. But sometimes it sounds like the

488
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 3: duck and chicken rolls are reversed and may just have

489
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 3: to do with how large each one you've got is.

490
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: But in most descriptions these birds are, they're not stuffed

491
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: in whole with the bones at all. The bird carcasses

492
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 3: are fully de boned beforehand, so you take all the

493
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 3: bones out and just have the meat in the skin,

494
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: and then there's usually also some form of stuffing to

495
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: pad out the spaces in between.

496
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: I had to be reminded of this, but apparently my

497
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: brother in law made one of these years and years ago,

498
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: and the main surviving detail of it is that he

499
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: had to get up super early in the morning because

500
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: he did have to remove the bones from everything.

501
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: Deboning a whole poultry carcass is I have actually done

502
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: it before. It's a lot of work. Yeah. Sure, if

503
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 3: you're an experienced butcher, it's you know, it's pretty easy.

504
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 3: But to my amateur hands it.

505
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: Was a task, I bet.

506
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: Though I have never made a turducan. This was just

507
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: a chicken.

508
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I apparently ate of this tur duncan, but

509
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: this was a long time ago and I have no

510
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: memories of what it might have tasted like.

511
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 3: So the tur ducan is something that I suspect is

512
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: referenced for comedy value at least a thousand times as

513
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: often as it is actually eaten, not only because for

514
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: you know, many people for whom it is not a

515
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: regular part of their dining fine in gastration of funny concept. Also,

516
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: I suspect because the word turducan contains the word turd.

517
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: That's true, It's just a funny sounding word.

518
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 3: Yes. Famously, the American football commentator John Madden talked about

519
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: the idea of a turducan on some NFL event broadcasts

520
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: around Thanksgiving across the years. You know, I'm not a

521
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 3: football fan, so I knew nothing about this. I only

522
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: came across this as I was reading about it. But

523
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: I looked up some of these videos and it is

524
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: quite fun. He's Madden is talking about the tru duck

525
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: in with an adorable combination of amusement and amazement. It's

526
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 3: just like, get allo to this. I'm about to knock

527
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 3: your socks off. It's a chicken inside a turkey. And

528
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 3: I found this clip from a It's like some pre

529
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: show chatter from the Eagles versus the forty nine Ers

530
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 3: game on the Monday before Thanksgiving November two thousand and two,

531
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: and Robbie, I shared this video with you so hopefully

532
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: I can get your reaction to it. But this video

533
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 3: is one of the most like Year two thousand and

534
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 3: two things I've ever seen. So the announcer comes on

535
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: and they're like Monday Night Football pre Thanksgiving, brought to

536
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: you by Budweiser, Brood Fresh in America, Touchstone Pictures, the

537
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: Hot Chick coming soon to theaters everywhere, and then there's

538
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: also an there's an ad for Radio Shack, and then

539
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: an ad for Chrystler, and the tagline for Chrysler at

540
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 3: the time was love equals Drive. Wow.

541
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I watched this video and I yes, this was impressive.

542
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: I also am not a football fan. I know of

543
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: Madden from his many video games, but yeah, he gets

544
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: into it.

545
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: Literally he made so many video games.

546
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, prolific of time for that. Yeah.

547
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: Oh, by the way, just important correction to what I

548
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: just said. JJ just chimed in because he watched the video.

549
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: Also to let us know that it was not love

550
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 3: equals drive. It was drive equals love though, OK. I

551
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: think by some principle of mathematics that works out to

552
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 3: the same thing.

553
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: I think, so right right, sure, it's got it.

554
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: I don't know, mathematicians let us know. But also so,

555
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: the funny thing about this video is that Madden is

556
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: extolling the virtues of the true ducan, like he explains

557
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: what it is. He's like, yeah, it's you know, you

558
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: put this bird inside this bird and it's so great.

559
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: But then he also demonstrates how how a turducan is

560
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 3: structured by he brings the camera over to this prepared

561
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 3: roasted turducan and then just rips it apart with his

562
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 3: hands to show all the layers.

563
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, somebody spent all day on that.

564
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. So who actually invented the turducan and when is

565
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 3: a matter of some dispute. The American Cajun and Creole

566
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: chef Paul Prudam at one point claimed he invented the

567
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: turducan at a lodge in Wyoming at some point. This

568
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: probably would have been in the nineteen sixties or maybe

569
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: the early seventies, though the first time he published his

570
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: recipe was in a cookbook in the eighties. And then

571
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: a couple of other Louisiana based chefs named Junior and

572
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: Sammy Herbert brothers who ran a butcher shop together in Louisiana.

573
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 3: They claimed they were the first to create it. So

574
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 3: it's as far as I can tell, still in dispute,

575
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 3: when the first authentic turducan was conceived. But part of

576
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: the problem with assigning credit for the invention of the

577
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: turducan is how close does a rect have to be

578
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 3: to count? Because if you get a little looser in

579
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: your criteria and you just start looking for examples of

580
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: birds stuffed inside birds and cooked, examples start to go

581
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 3: way back hundreds or thousands of years into history. It's

582
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 3: just the question of who specifically did this combination in

583
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 3: this order.

584
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: Well, Plus it also comes down to the question are

585
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: you talking about doubles are you talking about triples?

586
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: That's right, So I mentioned the idea of stunt food earlier.

587
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: You know, the cockin trice clearly seems to me to

588
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 3: be a kind of stunt food. But stuffing meats inside meats,

589
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: stuffing whole animal carcasses inside other animal carcasses and then

590
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: cooking them, that seems to me to be like the

591
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 3: quintessential stunt food. Like whatever actual unique pleasures lie in

592
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: the eating of three different kinds of poultry meat all

593
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 3: layered together and then cooked, as opposed to just you know,

594
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: served on their own separately. I think it's hard to

595
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: deny that the primary appeal of this kind of thing

596
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 3: is conceptual novelty, the novelty, the extravagance, the expense and

597
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: the difficulty imagined, and the preparation. It's the idea that, like,

598
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 3: you didn't have to do this, but you did it anyway.

599
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,479
Speaker 3: And you know, that's an interesting thing to think about

600
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 3: in food preparation because you could represent that that appeal

601
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 3: in more sympathetic and less sympathetic ways. So in our

602
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 3: cultural context, a more sympathetic view would be that it's

603
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 3: like an expression of creativity by a cook, a desire

604
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 3: for a challenge, a desire to delight diners and your

605
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 3: guests by giving them something new, like you may have

606
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 3: had poultry before, but not like this. And then a

607
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 3: less sympathetic view in our cultural context is that it's

608
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 3: about like showing off. You're showing off your skill if

609
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 3: you yourself or the cook, or maybe if you know

610
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 3: you're hiring the cook or buying this thing. It's about

611
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: showing off your power and wealth. So I want to

612
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: keep that in mind while we turn into one of

613
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 3: the most interesting antique accounts of in gastration that I

614
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: came across, and this is a story that was in

615
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 3: a book I found about the Evolution of the human

616
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: diet by a University of Edinburgh biologist name Jonathan Silvertown.

617
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: So the book is called Dinner with Darwin, Food, Drink

618
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: and Evolution, published by the University of Chicago Press in

619
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. And so Silvertown tells the story of this

620
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 3: particular in gastration project as follows. So the year is

621
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 3: sixty three BCE. This would have been during the Roman

622
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 3: Republican period. And in sixty three BCE there was a

623
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: banquet held in honor of the Roman statesman Cicero, who

624
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 3: is still known today for being a great orator and rhetorician,

625
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 3: you know, great giver of speeches. But he wasn't just

626
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 3: a you know, it wasn't just style points for Cicero.

627
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 3: He was also a very important power player in Roman

628
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 3: politics at the time. The host of this banquet for

629
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 3: was one of the richest citizens of Rome, a consule

630
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 3: named Servilius Rullus. And allegedly, you know, it starts off

631
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 3: with some appetizers, early courses of the feast that went

632
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 3: over extremely well. The guests were very happy and in

633
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: fact they burst into applause after the appetizer courses. But

634
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 3: the real centerpiece of the feast would be the porcus troyanis,

635
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 3: or what French authors would later call the bore a

636
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 3: la troyenne the trojan pig. Now why would it be

637
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 3: called that? Your mind might already be jumping to the answer.

638
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 3: But if you stick with me for a second, the

639
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: description goes that this dish is brought out on a

640
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 3: giant silver plate that takes four slaves to carry. The

641
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 3: plate is The plate is huge, and on it there

642
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 3: is a roasted bore with baskets of dates hanging from

643
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 3: its tusks, which are still attached. And then it's surrounded

644
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: by delicate little pastries made to look like a brood

645
00:36:58,840 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 3: of little piglets.

646
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: Whoa, it's already getting outrageous, and we haven't gotten inside

647
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: the pig.

648
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: I haven't even gone in yet. Yeah. Then they cut

649
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 3: open the roast bore to reveal that inside it there

650
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: is a second roast bore, and then inside the second

651
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 3: roast bore a third, and so on and so on,

652
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 3: giving way to smaller and smaller animals until the final core.

653
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 3: You reach the core, you know, the center of the

654
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 3: death star. What's down there? It's a tiny little cooked bird.

655
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness.

656
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 3: Now I enjoy cooking a challenging dish. But also this

657
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 3: is true for a lot of the dishes we've talked

658
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: about today, But for some reason, in this particular example,

659
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 3: I was just filled with horror imagining this dish made

660
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 3: by people who were not aware of germ theory and

661
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 3: did not have like time temperature charts for pasteurization. I'm

662
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 3: just feeling like that that bird in the middle was

663
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 3: not cooked properly. Yeah, or if it was, everything else

664
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 3: was dry as heck. But anyway, so this is how

665
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: you get the name Trojan pitch. As one Roman author

666
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 3: tells us, it was stuffed with smaller animals in the

667
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: same way that the Trojan horse of the Iliad was

668
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 3: filled with armed soldiers. And I also like the implication

669
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 3: that it will launch a sneak attack on your body

670
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 3: from the inside.

671
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, it sounds like it just might.

672
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 3: By the way. So this is the way that Silvertown

673
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 3: tells the story in the book, but elsewhere I've seen

674
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,479
Speaker 3: alternate accounts. Apparently there are multiple ancient texts that mention

675
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 3: versions of this dish, and alternate accounts of the Trojan

676
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: pig describe it as a roast bore stuffed with cased sausages,

677
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 3: which were said when you cut open the boar, to

678
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: spill out of the hog like intestines. Delicious.

679
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: Okay, maybe it's more amusing if you're like closer to

680
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: your butchery culture.

681
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, possibly so. In this book, the author

682
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: frames this within a discussion about the shifting pressures dictating

683
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 3: how we prepare food when our relationship to food resources changes.

684
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 3: You know, of course, with wild animals and for most humans.

685
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: For most of the history of our species, the primary

686
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 3: concern with food has just been making sure you have

687
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 3: enough access to the nutrients you need to survive. But

688
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 3: once humans get into a situation where there is what

689
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 3: feels like a dependable surplus of food, our attitude about

690
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 3: what food is for changes. It becomes less about meeting

691
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 3: the metabolic energy needs of the body, and food can

692
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: be used for other things to achieve other important goals,

693
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 3: such as trying to boost social status. And I think

694
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 3: there's no doubt at all that in like most cultures

695
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: throughout history, there has been a social status benefit to

696
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 3: being a good host. That's like a I don't know

697
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: if I can say it's a cultural universal, but it's

698
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 3: got to be close to universal. Like being a good

699
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: host is widely recognized as a thing that makes you

700
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 3: a socially respectable person. And one of the ways you

701
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 3: can approach trying to gain a reputation as a good

702
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: host is by serving elaborate and impressive and delightful meals,

703
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: not only meeting your guest's energy needs, but beyond that

704
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 3: giving them goostatory pleasure, and then beyond that giving them

705
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 3: novelty in food, and then beyond that giving them excess

706
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 3: just for excess's sake, just to show them that you

707
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: can and you're willing to. So there's an interesting relationship

708
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: here that Silvertown points out as sort of a difference

709
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: between satisfying hunger and satisfying the need for status, because

710
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: hunger is fundamentally hunger is both limited by some kind

711
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 3: of physical constraints on the body, but it's also insatiable

712
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 3: in the long term. So you can eat a meal,

713
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 3: but you can only eat so much until you're full.

714
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 3: Even if you've got a big appetite, you know there's

715
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 3: going to be a limit. And then also on the

716
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: other end, eventually, no matter how much you eat, your

717
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 3: safe will trend down towards zero over time, so at

718
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 3: some point, even if you had a really big meal,

719
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 3: you're going to need to eat again. You meet the need,

720
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 3: and then overtime the need recurs. Pressure for social status,

721
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: on the other hand, can be subject to a positive

722
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 3: feedback loop. A silvertown rights quote. My three bird roast

723
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 3: raises my status among my dinner guests, who then feel

724
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: the need to reciprocate. When everybody is serving three bird roasts,

725
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 3: I have become like everyone else. So I go one

726
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: better and show off with a four bird roast. Four

727
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: bird roasts become the new norm, and so I have

728
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 3: to go one better. And you know, I was thinking

729
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 3: about this and thinking that they are actually different and

730
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: more familiar ways this can be acted out and socially understood.

731
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: So we are not all like Roman consuls or tutor

732
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 3: British aristocrats jockeying for political power. But the desire for

733
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 3: status can manifest to us in ways that seem more

734
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: benign in our cultural environment. So here's an example I'm

735
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: thinking of. You want to host a family Thanksgiving maybe,

736
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 3: and you want to make sure that the spread is

737
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 3: really nice, so that the people in your family and

738
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: your friend group who are attending, will like you, and

739
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 3: will have a good time, and will enjoy coming to

740
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 3: your house at the holidays, and we'll want to spend

741
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: time with you. That that is perfectly reasonable thing to want,

742
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: And it feels a lot less crass and cutthroat than

743
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 3: the historical examples you know of these, like Roman politicians.

744
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 3: But I think it's fair to say that this is

745
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: still a way of using food to boost our social status.

746
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: I think I think that's a good point. I mean,

747
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: it's like we are social animals, like we cannot help

748
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: but engage in those currents, whether it is about the

749
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: grander game of you know, thrones in politics, or if

750
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: it is about a much simpler and maybe more wholesome

751
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 2: game of just appealing to friends in love with.

752
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 3: Right, wanting to be liked and accepted by your social circle,

753
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: by your friends and family. Now to cite a I

754
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 3: don't want to judge too much, but a potentially fine

755
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 3: or potentially less wholesome feeling example from today. Another variation

756
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 3: is not actually physically hosting guests in person, but like

757
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: posting your impressive food creations on social media. In that format,

758
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 3: you don't actually have to go to the trouble of

759
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 3: hosting people, but you can still presumably impress others and

760
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 3: gain social status by digitally showing off your turducan or

761
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 3: whatever other impressive food creation on the gram.

762
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it is one of those things that

763
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: I guess is kind of like doubly impressive because not

764
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: only does it mean you can cook said dish, but

765
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: you also have the talent and skill to properly photograph

766
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: or film it. Those two skills don't always go hand

767
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: in hand.

768
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: Oh they don't. Yeah, yeah, I know. Food photography is

769
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 3: a real It's a thing people don't appreciate enough because

770
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 3: they consume like food food photography all the time, and

771
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 3: like don't realize how disgusting even a lot of really

772
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 3: good food looks if you know, the light conditions aren't

773
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 3: right and so forth. Yeah, but anyway, coming back to

774
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 3: the argument from this book, According to this author Silvertown,

775
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: this is why in a food surplus environment, where our

776
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 3: investments in food become more about promoting social status than

777
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 3: about simply satisfying the body's energy needs, there can be

778
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 3: a tendency to always try to go one better, to

779
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 3: keep one upping the social expectations because the need for status,

780
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 3: can have this this zero point adjusted to whatever your

781
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 3: cultural baseline is, which might feel to you like it

782
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 3: involves cramming seven chickens inside nine pigs for Thanksgiving or whatever.

783
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: But like you were saying, rob, it cuts to a

784
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 3: core biological reality about humans, which is that we are

785
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 3: not sharks. You know, we are a deeply social species,

786
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 3: and social reputation is nearly as important to us as food.

787
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 3: It's like barely under food in terms of needs. It's

788
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: core to our wealth being. And so the desire to

789
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 3: have a good reputation, to be liked by friends and family,

790
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 3: to do and to have, you know, to have positive

791
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: social status, that that is something that it cuts really

792
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 3: deep to the human experience. It's a strong need we have.

793
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 3: And if you get in a cultural situation where you

794
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: feel like in order to meet those needs, to meet

795
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 3: that pressure for for reputation and to be liked and

796
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: thought of as a good host and all that that

797
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 3: you need to do increasingly impressive and possibly even strange

798
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 3: creations of food. That's you know, it can seem perfectly logical.

799
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 3: It's just like this is what I've got to do.

800
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's I mean, this is the reason

801
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: why we have, you know, religious and mythological tales in

802
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: which it is it is stressed that you were you

803
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 2: were always good as a host because the people you

804
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: are entertaining they may seem like nobody, but they could

805
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: be gods in disguise, you know. Like that's how that's

806
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 2: how essential hosting is to the human experience. Yeah, now

807
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: I want to sort of close things out in maybe

808
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 2: a less cerebral area. I want to talk very briefly

809
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 2: about tofurky, because tofurkey is also, I mean, I think objectively,

810
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: a funny word. It makes me laugh anytime I see

811
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 2: a package of tofurkey at the store, and that alone

812
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: makes me want to buy it.

813
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: Can I do a ranking of words? Yeah, they said,

814
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say the least funny word is chicken. Turkey

815
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 3: is a funnier word than chicken. Tofurkey is a funnier

816
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: word than turkey, and turduck in is a funnier word

817
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 3: than tofurkey.

818
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that ranking is solid, But if you're

819
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: not familiar with tofurke, it is a holiday meat substitute,

820
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 2: really a feast meat substitute in a limited way. It's

821
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: a blend of wheat protein and tofu. According to the

822
00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: website of the official Tofurky product, like the company anyway,

823
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: began in nineteen eighty when a teacher and naturalists by

824
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: the name of Seth Tibbott made some from scratch Tempe

825
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 2: to share it with friends in Portland, and then like

826
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: the company takes off and he eventually gives the world

827
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 2: Tofurkey in nineteen ninety five as a vegan holiday roast,

828
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: which I mean, you know, the mid nineties, Like that's

829
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: as you for a lot of people, like that's early

830
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 2: in vegan cooking. You know, that's a time period where

831
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 2: I feel like it's more likely to be to be

832
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 2: the punchline on a late night joke. But I guess

833
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: that's also the beauty of the word tofurky. It is

834
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: just innately funny and is therefore going to wind up

835
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 2: the subject of late night jokes. But essentially what we're

836
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 2: talking about here is, yeah, a vegan meat substitute loaf

837
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 2: filled with stuffing. So you know, it does connect to

838
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: these various traditions of big roasts and stuffed meats, but

839
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 2: with this meat free twist, I still prefer feet of meat.

840
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: But still I admire the Toferki, and it makes me think,

841
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: like what additional twists on these traditions we might see

842
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: in the near future, even either with our already robust

843
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: imitation meat capabilities, which really have come a long way

844
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: since the mid nineties. Some phenomenal meat substitutes out there.

845
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of several of them. But then

846
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:19,720
Speaker 2: also we have the ever potential future of that grown meat.

847
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: I always hear conflicting things about how far that, how

848
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 2: far off that is in terms of feasibility, but maybe

849
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 2: not so far off in terms of just pure meat spectacle.

850
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 2: You know, like you could imagine that grown whatever being

851
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,959
Speaker 2: like the extravagant centerpiece, because it's like, you know, it's

852
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 2: not at the point yet, you know where it can

853
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 2: be rolled out to everyone.

854
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 3: My god, though, I mean the create like if you're

855
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 3: impressed by cramming together some crab legs and a turkey

856
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 3: to look like a face hug, or imagine what could

857
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 3: be done if you can actually like grow the meat

858
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 3: to a specified mold. You could make all kinds of things,

859
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: and that could also be an interesting uh yeah, like ah,

860
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 3: an extravagant kind of you know, it's probably not cheap

861
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: to do that, But if you really want to impress

862
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 3: your guests, it's like, here, you're you're going to eat

863
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 3: a I don't know, a delicious unicorn head.

864
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: I mean, what do meats end up tasting like when

865
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 2: they are still on some level biologically meat, but they're

866
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: divorced from the concept of living animals and they are

867
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: subject to human tinkering and engineering, Like you know, what

868
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 2: strange new tastes and forms are possible? I mean, I mean,

869
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: I guess we're pointing out that to certainly, to a

870
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 2: large extent, humans have already manipulated the taste and form

871
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 2: of various meats and their they're domesticated meat animals. But

872
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: you know, this would just take it to the next

873
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: level potentially, mm hmm. It depends, I guess, to what

874
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: extent you feel like you have to stay in line

875
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 2: with the traditions and to what extent you can stray

876
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: away from them. But who knows. There could come a

877
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: time when on the same table you could serve both

878
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: cock and trice and cock a trice right there next

879
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: to each other on on silver platters.

880
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, hey, folks out there, if you're listening and

881
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 3: you work in the in the lab, grown meatfield right

882
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 3: in and let us know, like, how feasible is this?

883
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 3: Could you grow a cockatrice to eat?

884
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the rest of you out there are pro chefs,

885
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: amateur chefs, et cetera. Right in with your your thoughts

886
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 2: and experiences with any of the recipes we've discussed in

887
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 2: this episode. We'd love to hear from you. Send your

888
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 2: food pictures as well.

889
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 3: We'll have a look up, especially if they look disgusting

890
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: because of the lighting.

891
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: We will not judge you on that count. All right,

892
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: We're gonna ahead and close out this episode, but we'll

893
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 2: just remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

894
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on

895
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays and on Fridays. We set aside most

896
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on

897
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema.

898
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

899
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

900
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to send

901
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 3: us your interesting holiday creations, to suggest a topic for

902
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 3: the future, or just to say hi, you can email

903
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 3: us at contact at stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com.

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00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

905
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.