WEBVTT - India Syndrome 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:13.645 School of Humans. It's two thousand and six and Scott 0:00:13.725 --> 0:00:17.445 Karney is leading a bunch of American college students through India. 0:00:17.685 --> 0:00:20.805 This was before Karney became a journalist and bestselling author, 0:00:21.565 --> 0:00:25.925 but even years after, it's an experience he'll never forget. 0:00:26.445 --> 0:00:28.925 It was really fun to sort of bring these students 0:00:29.845 --> 0:00:32.965 on this program, which is basically toward all of you know, 0:00:33.085 --> 0:00:35.765 many of the important holy cities in North India. So 0:00:35.805 --> 0:00:39.765 we started off in Delhi. They visited Varanassi, the holy 0:00:39.805 --> 0:00:43.805 city where many go to die, their body ceremoniously burned 0:00:43.845 --> 0:00:47.845 and thrown into the sacred river Ganges. Then Bogaya, where 0:00:47.925 --> 0:00:52.925 more than two millenniago the Buddha reached enlightenment. This is 0:00:52.925 --> 0:00:55.405 where they stayed for the highlight of their trip, a 0:00:55.485 --> 0:00:59.605 seven day silent meditation. I didn't lead the meditations. We 0:00:59.685 --> 0:01:03.445 had like a Tibetan Buddhist nun, a Swiss German Tibetan 0:01:03.445 --> 0:01:07.205 Buddhist non at this place, the Route Institute in both Gaya, 0:01:07.285 --> 0:01:11.565 and you know, we're meditating on like bliss, on Nirvana, 0:01:11.605 --> 0:01:15.325 on compassion. And you know, one of the meditations you 0:01:15.365 --> 0:01:18.045 do is you meditate on your own death. You meditate 0:01:18.165 --> 0:01:21.485 on the impermanence of life and concentrate on the moment 0:01:21.565 --> 0:01:24.805 of your own death and then use that to give 0:01:24.805 --> 0:01:27.445 yourself perspective on what it means to be alive. For 0:01:27.525 --> 0:01:30.325 seven days, we're doing these meditations and we're not talking 0:01:30.365 --> 0:01:33.965 to anyone. And you know, I have a variety of students. 0:01:33.965 --> 0:01:36.085 I have people who are way out there in sort 0:01:36.085 --> 0:01:38.165 of the spiritual weirdo spectrum, and I have some very 0:01:38.245 --> 0:01:42.165 normal people. And there's this one student, Emily, who was 0:01:42.245 --> 0:01:45.725 probably like the best, brightest, most together student in the 0:01:45.725 --> 0:01:47.965 whole group. You know, she was the type a personality 0:01:47.965 --> 0:01:49.805 who've got things done and you could always rely on. 0:01:50.165 --> 0:01:53.805 Emily was a twenty one year old from Charlottesville, Virginia. 0:01:53.925 --> 0:01:57.165 A devoted meditator and yogi back in the States, she 0:01:57.285 --> 0:02:01.725 came to India to experience something authentic, and after days 0:02:01.765 --> 0:02:08.645 of silent transformative meditation, what she experienced was unexpected. After 0:02:08.645 --> 0:02:11.485 the meditation retreat, you know, I'm not you know, I'm 0:02:11.525 --> 0:02:12.925 not talking to her at this time. I don't really 0:02:12.965 --> 0:02:16.165 know what's going on her head. And she climbs up 0:02:16.205 --> 0:02:18.845 to the roof of the retreat center. It's at four 0:02:18.885 --> 0:02:22.565 in the morning or so, and wraps a scarf under 0:02:22.765 --> 0:02:25.725 her face and jumps off the building to her death. 0:02:28.205 --> 0:02:31.245 I don't know how you're feeling, but when I first 0:02:31.285 --> 0:02:35.845 heard this story, I was shocked and confused. How can 0:02:35.885 --> 0:02:40.405 a spiritual practice like meditation make you do something like that. 0:02:41.845 --> 0:02:45.525 Some would argue that through meditation, Emily reached some sort 0:02:45.525 --> 0:02:48.605 of enlightenment, which is one of the many objectives of 0:02:48.725 --> 0:02:52.685 the four point five trillion dollar global wellness industry. But 0:02:52.765 --> 0:02:56.285 if that's the case, and Emily reached this elusive idea 0:02:56.285 --> 0:03:01.685 of enlightenment, then what is the cost of enlightenment death? 0:03:03.245 --> 0:03:05.965 This is a question I examined thoroughly in this podcast 0:03:06.485 --> 0:03:09.885 through stories of people who presumably died or disappeared on 0:03:09.925 --> 0:03:13.285 spiritual quests. And what I've learned so far from their 0:03:13.325 --> 0:03:17.045 stories and the experts I've spoken to is that enlightenment 0:03:17.805 --> 0:03:21.285 is a tight rope. There's a very thin line between 0:03:21.365 --> 0:03:26.405 healing and harm. Look, I'm not demonizing the spiritual wellness industry. 0:03:26.805 --> 0:03:29.565 My investment in my own spiritual growth the past few 0:03:29.645 --> 0:03:33.085 years has gotten me through some devastating shit. The spiritual 0:03:33.125 --> 0:03:37.365 practices I ascribe to give me clarity make me feel grounded, 0:03:37.765 --> 0:03:42.005 less reactive, more in control of the uncontrollable. They bring 0:03:42.005 --> 0:03:45.365 me closer to something that feels like an inner knowing 0:03:45.925 --> 0:03:49.485 where I trust myself. But I will say that through 0:03:49.525 --> 0:03:51.845 the research I've been doing and some stories will be 0:03:51.885 --> 0:03:56.565 sharing in this podcast, the idea of attaining enlightenment, something 0:03:56.605 --> 0:03:59.805 many of these spiritual or wellness practice is ascribed to do, 0:04:00.645 --> 0:04:04.725 has started to feel like pushing your edge, and some 0:04:04.765 --> 0:04:09.365 instances I describe it as a massochistic indulgence to create 0:04:09.645 --> 0:04:13.805 infinite release, which is something extreme sport fanatics can relate 0:04:13.845 --> 0:04:17.245 to with their bodies. But how do you push your 0:04:17.365 --> 0:04:21.165 edge spiritually and what do you sacrifice when you do? 0:04:23.005 --> 0:04:26.405 If K two is the most savage mountain extreme mountaineers 0:04:26.405 --> 0:04:31.405 are compulsively driven to climb, then India, the mystical mecca, 0:04:31.605 --> 0:04:36.165 is that same extreme for spiritual seekers. I know this 0:04:36.405 --> 0:04:40.805 because I am a seeker and I'm your host, Caroline Slaughter. 0:04:41.445 --> 0:04:43.525 If you don't know what a seeker is, here are 0:04:43.565 --> 0:04:47.525 a couple thoughts from people I've interviewed. Seeking for the 0:04:47.565 --> 0:04:53.045 next level of spirituality basically not being born into a 0:04:53.165 --> 0:04:55.845 human form again, learning all the lessons you have to 0:04:56.445 --> 0:04:58.285 in these human form so you can move on to 0:04:58.365 --> 0:05:00.205 the next realm. I think that's what a lot of 0:05:00.205 --> 0:05:03.685 seekers are looking for, some sort of profound experience outside 0:05:03.685 --> 0:05:08.405 of themselves. Someone who's looking for answers to life. Potentially, 0:05:08.445 --> 0:05:11.645 people who are looking for other options out of life. 0:05:11.845 --> 0:05:14.085 Some of the people that do disappear in India, I'd 0:05:14.085 --> 0:05:16.765 say that's probably a driver with all the stresses and 0:05:16.805 --> 0:05:19.725 things that come with life, you know, seeking another option. 0:05:20.005 --> 0:05:22.605 But at that time I was seeking, you know, I 0:05:22.645 --> 0:05:24.525 didn't want to become a holy man, but I did 0:05:24.645 --> 0:05:29.165 want to become more enlightened. Even that is a bit 0:05:29.205 --> 0:05:32.645 of a con job. I think it's been oversold. Enlightened. 0:05:33.245 --> 0:05:35.365 I think being present with your life is pretty good. 0:05:35.525 --> 0:05:40.565 It's just about living in the light, meaning the truth 0:05:41.725 --> 0:05:44.325 of who you are. A lot of people that will 0:05:44.365 --> 0:05:47.485 hear this podcast will be seekers like, don't go to 0:05:47.565 --> 0:05:55.645 India because this is a venus flytrap for your vulnerability. 0:05:56.525 --> 0:05:59.245 If you're listening to this podcast, I bet one of 0:05:59.245 --> 0:06:03.605 those explanations resonated or at least intrigued you, and maybe, 0:06:03.725 --> 0:06:07.485 like me, you won't. So want to know what's the 0:06:07.525 --> 0:06:13.725 cost of enlightenment? I asked Karney this question, which he 0:06:13.805 --> 0:06:18.445 answered with further insight on Emily a pseudonym Karney uses 0:06:18.485 --> 0:06:23.045 to protect a student's privacy. One of the main first 0:06:23.085 --> 0:06:25.645 questions is, well, why did she do it? And so, 0:06:26.645 --> 0:06:28.405 as the director of the program, I read her journal 0:06:28.685 --> 0:06:31.525 and it sort of is this descent into madness. The 0:06:31.605 --> 0:06:33.845 moment we get into that retreat center. You know, she 0:06:33.925 --> 0:06:37.365 has this dream she records about, you know, someone falling 0:06:37.405 --> 0:06:39.485 off a cliff, which is sort of weird. And then 0:06:39.485 --> 0:06:42.245 she starts saying that I'm having all these visions while 0:06:42.285 --> 0:06:44.685 I'm sitting in this meditation, and I know that I'm 0:06:44.685 --> 0:06:46.925 on the cusp of something great. I know that I'm 0:06:47.285 --> 0:06:50.645 becoming something more. Time is changing around me, I am 0:06:50.685 --> 0:06:54.365 achieving something awesome. And the last words in her journal 0:06:54.485 --> 0:06:58.165 are I am a Bodhisatfa and all she has to 0:06:58.205 --> 0:07:00.765 do is leave her body and she will get to 0:07:00.845 --> 0:07:06.165 that next level and Mahayana Buddhism, are you? Sat Fi 0:07:06.445 --> 0:07:09.805 is a person who's able to reach nirvana, but delay 0:07:09.885 --> 0:07:12.245 is doing so in order to help every other being 0:07:12.285 --> 0:07:16.525 in this world achieve the same state. The literal translation 0:07:16.845 --> 0:07:22.085 is essence of enlightenment. According to Carney. Emily wrote in 0:07:22.125 --> 0:07:25.525 her journal that the meditations had given her a profound 0:07:25.565 --> 0:07:29.245 understanding of the universe. She could see how her countless 0:07:29.245 --> 0:07:32.405 past lives had made her a perfect vessel for enlightenment. 0:07:33.085 --> 0:07:36.125 The only thing preventing her from a transformation into something 0:07:36.245 --> 0:07:41.205 greater than herself was her body. You know, when you're meditating, 0:07:41.605 --> 0:07:44.165 the world seems to change, like almost like if you're 0:07:44.365 --> 0:07:45.725 when you're on a drug. You know, you might be 0:07:45.765 --> 0:07:48.605 sitting there and you might not notice the passage of times. 0:07:48.725 --> 0:07:51.885 The sun might appear to arise very quickly. You know, 0:07:51.925 --> 0:07:54.005 that's happened to me a few times, or you might 0:07:54.245 --> 0:07:56.685 you might be having these new types of thoughts that 0:07:56.725 --> 0:07:58.525 you've never had before. You're like, wow, I'm on the 0:07:58.765 --> 0:08:01.645 this is amazing. I have a vision in something new 0:08:01.685 --> 0:08:03.645 and you feel like there's something really big. And I 0:08:03.725 --> 0:08:08.245 think what she wanted is to capture that moment. So 0:08:08.285 --> 0:08:13.885 there's this desire to find stasis. And death is a 0:08:13.925 --> 0:08:17.005 type of stasis, right, death like ending everything is like well, 0:08:17.005 --> 0:08:18.405 I know, I know I can stomp it right here, 0:08:18.405 --> 0:08:20.285 And I think that's what was going through her mind. 0:08:21.605 --> 0:08:25.085 After Emily's death, Karney had the responsibility of getting her 0:08:25.125 --> 0:08:28.565 body back to the States, which wasn't easy with India's 0:08:28.565 --> 0:08:31.725 one hundred and four degree heat, threatening the decomposition of 0:08:31.725 --> 0:08:34.085 her body, and the channels he had to go through 0:08:34.085 --> 0:08:39.365 to get Clarence. This tragedy and it's aftermath shook Karney 0:08:39.445 --> 0:08:42.525 to his core. You witnessed that when he speaks about 0:08:42.525 --> 0:08:46.805 Emily in a twenty fifteen Ted talkie Dead, It's personal 0:08:47.125 --> 0:08:50.485 and its effects stayed with him, making him further question 0:08:50.565 --> 0:08:55.165 her motive. So I began to wonder how many other 0:08:55.285 --> 0:09:00.925 stories out there are there like Emily's. It turns out 0:09:00.965 --> 0:09:06.405 that people going to India looking for transcendence are fairly common. 0:09:09.445 --> 0:09:12.565 Some of them find it, and some of their stories 0:09:12.605 --> 0:09:17.645 don't turn out well. I collected six journals of people 0:09:18.605 --> 0:09:21.845 who had taken their own lives on meditation retreats. I 0:09:21.925 --> 0:09:25.445 came across the names of Ryan Chambers and Jonathan Spollen, 0:09:25.725 --> 0:09:29.125 both of whom disappeared from the Holy City of Rishakesh 0:09:29.285 --> 0:09:33.045 within a few years of each other. I found a 0:09:33.125 --> 0:09:38.685 mental hospital in New Delhi that admits one hundred Western 0:09:39.165 --> 0:09:42.245 travelers a year suffering from a condition that they now 0:09:42.285 --> 0:09:47.925 call India Syndrome. Now, Carney just touches on Ryan Chambers 0:09:47.925 --> 0:09:51.685 and Jonathan Spollen, two stories that we deep dive into 0:09:51.725 --> 0:09:54.565 in this series. And one that I felt a personal 0:09:54.565 --> 0:09:58.525 connection to. So at this point, even though they're involuntary 0:09:58.605 --> 0:10:01.365 poster children of India syndrome, I don't want to lump 0:10:01.405 --> 0:10:04.525 them under that label until we've further investigated this phenomenon 0:10:04.925 --> 0:10:08.125 and you've heard their stories told from their families firsthand. 0:10:09.125 --> 0:10:12.125 But before we get into all of that, I want 0:10:12.165 --> 0:10:16.485 to introduce you to someone. Hey, how are you holding up? 0:10:20.005 --> 0:10:23.205 This is in Qita, my co producer and Delhi. We've 0:10:23.205 --> 0:10:26.605 been working together on this podcast through COVID the US election, 0:10:26.805 --> 0:10:28.685 which we're in the midst of when I recorded this. 0:10:29.485 --> 0:10:34.885 How's everything going there? I'm fine? Oh, all my family 0:10:34.965 --> 0:10:39.365 members have tested COVID positive. The world has been in 0:10:39.765 --> 0:10:44.165 turmoil during the eight months we've been working together, and 0:10:44.245 --> 0:10:47.045 during the short stint of knowing in Quita, both our 0:10:47.085 --> 0:10:51.645 grandfathers have been sick, mine passed away. We've had family nieces, 0:10:51.765 --> 0:10:55.565 dogs hijack our zoom calls and on all the personal 0:10:55.605 --> 0:10:59.245 life stresses that are magnified during this pandemic, and you've 0:10:59.245 --> 0:11:03.405 got an instant friendship between two co workers from vastly 0:11:03.485 --> 0:11:08.925 different places and backgrounds who share more similarities than those differences. 0:11:08.925 --> 0:11:14.285 Someone who's not obsessed with rigidities. Who's not so what 0:11:14.565 --> 0:11:19.205 it about having all the answers but knowing that there 0:11:19.405 --> 0:11:23.405 is as much unlearning in life as it is learning. 0:11:24.325 --> 0:11:27.365 That's in Keita's definition of a seeker, which she would 0:11:27.365 --> 0:11:31.405 consider herself. But she's also a journalist and my north 0:11:31.485 --> 0:11:35.005 star on this podcast. We've only met via zoom. A 0:11:35.005 --> 0:11:37.565 friend introduced us after I told her I needed to 0:11:37.605 --> 0:11:42.045 find an experienced and thorough investigative journalist in India. She 0:11:42.165 --> 0:11:46.405 introduced me to a Keita and I introduced Enquita to 0:11:46.525 --> 0:11:53.445 India syndrome. India Syndrome was coined by the French psychiatrist 0:11:53.725 --> 0:11:58.365 Regis Erroll, working as a psychiatrist affiliated with a French 0:11:58.445 --> 0:12:01.885 consulate in Bombay for a period of sixteen months from 0:12:01.965 --> 0:12:05.965 nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty six, at All saw 0:12:06.005 --> 0:12:09.965 a total of two hundred patients, of which fifty presented 0:12:10.005 --> 0:12:14.965 with psychosis. Of those fifty, twenty one patients had schizophrenia 0:12:15.005 --> 0:12:19.525 and therefore prior histories, fourhead psychosis associated with drug use, 0:12:20.045 --> 0:12:25.085 and fifteen patients had what appeared to be borderline personality disorders. 0:12:25.805 --> 0:12:29.885 It is these fifteen patients thirty percent of patients presenting 0:12:29.885 --> 0:12:34.405 with psychosis who are diagnosed as having voyage pathogen or 0:12:34.445 --> 0:12:42.565 traveler syndrome aka India syndrome. In Adull's psychiatric opinion, India 0:12:42.645 --> 0:12:46.445 syndrome is a travel related psychosis that occurs during travel 0:12:46.685 --> 0:12:52.605 to destinations with high religious, spiritual, cultural, or esthetic value, 0:12:53.045 --> 0:12:56.965 and to Westerners, India is an exotic locale charged with 0:12:57.085 --> 0:13:01.085 spiritual meaning. Here's Carney on this. It's the idea whe 0:13:01.125 --> 0:13:02.765 you go to a new place and you're in a 0:13:02.845 --> 0:13:05.645 totally different cultural context, and when you do that, it's 0:13:05.645 --> 0:13:10.605 an isolating dealing and then you have some sort of experience. 0:13:10.725 --> 0:13:14.125 Usually it's an internal experience, there's a spiritual insight, and 0:13:14.165 --> 0:13:17.045 then that sort of insight it takes you over and 0:13:17.045 --> 0:13:19.925 you go mad. And in India it's India syndrome because 0:13:19.925 --> 0:13:22.045 there's a lot of Westerners who go over there and 0:13:22.325 --> 0:13:26.325 think that they have achieved something truly spiritual, unique and great. 0:13:26.685 --> 0:13:30.925 You don't go on a spiritual journey to India just randomly, right. 0:13:31.325 --> 0:13:34.125 Usually you go there with a bunch of ideas in 0:13:34.165 --> 0:13:37.205 your head already, and then you go there trying to 0:13:37.245 --> 0:13:42.085 find it. Karney's twenty fifteen book The Enlightenment Trap features 0:13:42.085 --> 0:13:45.405 this phenomenon. In the book, he touches on twenty one 0:13:45.485 --> 0:13:51.405 year old Ryan Chambers story, an Australian who vanished in Rashikesh, India. 0:13:51.485 --> 0:13:54.005 According to Karney, Ryan might have been one of the 0:13:54.045 --> 0:13:58.365 many Westerners who flocked to India seeking spiritual ennightenment, and 0:13:58.445 --> 0:14:01.645 there's some evidence will discuss later that points to that possibility, 0:14:02.605 --> 0:14:05.645 but we don't know for sure because no one a 0:14:05.765 --> 0:14:09.005 scene or heard from Ryan since two thousand and five 0:14:10.805 --> 0:14:15.245 will discuss Ryan's disappearance and the syndrome that potentially prompted it. 0:14:15.885 --> 0:14:30.685 After the break. As a seeker with a compulsion for 0:14:30.805 --> 0:14:35.685 travel and curiosity around all things spiritual, I wanted to 0:14:35.725 --> 0:14:38.885 get to the bottom of this India syndrome thing. But 0:14:38.965 --> 0:14:41.285 what I realized is that it's just an entry point 0:14:41.645 --> 0:14:45.525 for a handful of other related culture bound syndromes. There's 0:14:45.525 --> 0:14:49.325 Stendall syndrome, which is a psychosomatic condition where a person 0:14:49.365 --> 0:14:54.525 will faint, hallucinate, experience confusion, or a rapid heartbeat while 0:14:54.605 --> 0:14:59.525 viewing an exceptional object, piece of artwork, or phenomena. The 0:14:59.685 --> 0:15:02.885 syndrome is unique to Florence, Italy, thus its other name 0:15:03.285 --> 0:15:08.245 Florence syndrome. Then there's Paris syndrome, which is bizarre and 0:15:08.525 --> 0:15:12.165 noted primarily in Japanese tourists who are disappointed by their 0:15:12.165 --> 0:15:15.885 experience in Paris when there are expectations of Paris's beauty 0:15:15.885 --> 0:15:18.965 are not met. It leads to the same physical symptoms 0:15:18.965 --> 0:15:25.245 as Stenthol syndrome fainting, hallucinations, confusion, but also includes acute 0:15:25.285 --> 0:15:28.925 feelings of persecution. But the one that's the most similar 0:15:28.965 --> 0:15:32.885 to India syndrome is Jerusalem syndrome, which I'll let journalist 0:15:32.965 --> 0:15:36.445 Jessica Rabbits, who's covered religion and spirituality in her work 0:15:36.765 --> 0:15:39.805 and wrote an article for CNN about India syndrome, tell 0:15:39.845 --> 0:15:42.925 you about that. I'd written before about something called the 0:15:43.045 --> 0:15:47.045 Jerusalem syndrome, which is a syndrome where people get to 0:15:47.125 --> 0:15:51.525 this holy city and just become so overwhelmed by the 0:15:51.565 --> 0:15:54.805 power of it or by the expectations of what they 0:15:54.845 --> 0:15:57.885 thought it would be, that they kind of have a 0:15:57.965 --> 0:16:01.765 break and they believe they're the Messiah or any number 0:16:01.765 --> 0:16:06.645 of biblical figures. So I heard about the India syndrome 0:16:07.245 --> 0:16:10.885 and was just fascinated by the idea of it. And 0:16:11.565 --> 0:16:15.005 what I know of it is that it's like the 0:16:15.085 --> 0:16:20.245 Jerusalem syndrome. It's this unusual condition that can afflict Westerners 0:16:20.565 --> 0:16:26.125 who travel to India and become perhaps delusional or in 0:16:26.365 --> 0:16:31.805 extreme cases disappear during these quests for enlightenment, and this 0:16:31.885 --> 0:16:35.205 brings us back to India syndrome. I went down a 0:16:35.285 --> 0:16:39.085 rabbit hole researching India syndrome for this podcast, and I 0:16:39.125 --> 0:16:42.125 was admittedly drawn in by books and articles with the 0:16:42.165 --> 0:16:46.685 cryptic phenomena at their core, including Carney's book The Enlightenment Trap, 0:16:47.085 --> 0:16:51.325 which got my attention with passages about India, like some 0:16:51.405 --> 0:16:54.685 are drawn to India by accounts of the superpowers of 0:16:54.765 --> 0:16:59.365 dedicated practitioners yogis who can levitate, breathe for months while 0:16:59.485 --> 0:17:03.725 entombed underground, or melting giant swaths of snow with their 0:17:03.765 --> 0:17:06.685 body heat, believing that they too will be able to 0:17:06.685 --> 0:17:12.285 accomplish extraordinary things. This quest to become superhuman, along with 0:17:12.325 --> 0:17:16.845 the culture shock, emotional isolation, illicit drugs, and the physical 0:17:16.885 --> 0:17:21.525 toll of hardcore meditation, can cause Western seekers to lose 0:17:21.685 --> 0:17:25.365 their bearings, seemingly seeing people get out of bed one 0:17:25.405 --> 0:17:29.085 day claiming that they've discovered the lost continent of Lemuria, 0:17:29.285 --> 0:17:32.045 or that the end of the world is nigh or 0:17:32.285 --> 0:17:37.085 that they've awakened their third eye. Most recover, but some 0:17:37.245 --> 0:17:42.045 become permanently delusional, a few vanish or even turn up dead. 0:17:43.565 --> 0:17:47.925 This section of Carney's book is salacious and tantalizing. It 0:17:47.965 --> 0:17:52.485 makes spiritual curiosities and travel in India seem dangerous, and 0:17:52.565 --> 0:17:54.885 after what Carney went through with his Studentimily and the 0:17:54.925 --> 0:17:57.285 deep dive he did for his book, The Enlightenment Trap, 0:17:57.325 --> 0:18:00.205 it's a valid point of view because he's witnessed this 0:18:00.245 --> 0:18:04.165 phenomena in real time. But to further examine this theory 0:18:04.205 --> 0:18:06.965 in our podcast, I want to take a look at 0:18:06.965 --> 0:18:12.125 the disappearance of Ryan Chambers, whose disappearance has been associated 0:18:12.325 --> 0:18:18.525 with India syndrome. Ryan was very creative and very artistic, 0:18:18.765 --> 0:18:22.485 and I picked that up at a very young age, 0:18:22.525 --> 0:18:24.965 around the age of five. So we were in a 0:18:25.045 --> 0:18:30.965 family of four logic based people and one creative. That's 0:18:31.045 --> 0:18:34.965 Diane Chambers telling me about her son Ryan. I used 0:18:34.965 --> 0:18:37.765 to say that he had the ability to sit and 0:18:37.805 --> 0:18:42.005 watch paint dry. He used to sit in his own 0:18:42.165 --> 0:18:48.845 mind a lot and always appeared not very motivated. But 0:18:49.165 --> 0:18:52.925 as the years went on and he got older, I 0:18:53.205 --> 0:18:58.085 began to realize that Ryan was motivated by things that 0:18:58.165 --> 0:19:01.165 he was really interested in, so which is the case 0:19:01.245 --> 0:19:05.125 for everybody. But the fact was, I think it took 0:19:05.205 --> 0:19:08.045 him a long time to really find out what really 0:19:08.365 --> 0:19:13.525 motivated inspired him. Jack Ryan's dad explains what happened to 0:19:13.565 --> 0:19:17.085 their son. On Wednesday, August twenty fourth, two thousand and five, 0:19:17.725 --> 0:19:20.885 John and he had been in India for two months 0:19:20.965 --> 0:19:24.605 and they went up north to Varonassi, spent a bit 0:19:24.645 --> 0:19:28.285 of time there, then went to Rishi Kish and from 0:19:28.325 --> 0:19:32.005 our understanding, they are only there for three days and 0:19:33.125 --> 0:19:37.725 one morning he just left the sh ram. He took off, 0:19:37.805 --> 0:19:40.725 left everything behind, He's wallet, his new sea tar that 0:19:40.805 --> 0:19:45.365 he'd bought in Varonassi, all his clothes, his wallet, and 0:19:45.485 --> 0:19:49.325 he just disappeared, never to be seen again. Jack and 0:19:49.405 --> 0:19:52.765 Dianne made the biggest impression on me. They have so 0:19:52.885 --> 0:19:55.325 much love for their son, and their resilience in the 0:19:55.365 --> 0:19:59.605 face of his disappearance is moving. Even though they've lived 0:19:59.605 --> 0:20:04.525 through a hellish rollercoaster ride of multiple investigations, false leads, 0:20:04.645 --> 0:20:10.085 and scams around Ryan's disappearance, they're still helpful and they're 0:20:10.125 --> 0:20:14.285 open to telling his story. He never actually said what 0:20:14.325 --> 0:20:17.805 it was that he wants to go to India four. 0:20:18.445 --> 0:20:21.205 He'd never travel overseas before. He got in touch with 0:20:21.285 --> 0:20:23.685 John and said, do you want to go to India 0:20:23.725 --> 0:20:26.365 with me? In the summer of two thousand and five, 0:20:26.845 --> 0:20:29.845 Ryan backpack through India for two months with his friend John, 0:20:30.085 --> 0:20:34.125 the childhood friend. But when they had Rishi Kash, something 0:20:34.645 --> 0:20:38.565 was off. It was in the evening here and at 0:20:38.725 --> 0:20:42.125 nine o'clock in the evening comes to mind, which is 0:20:42.125 --> 0:20:45.165 probably about right, because I think there's about a four 0:20:45.285 --> 0:20:48.645 or four and a half hour time difference, and there 0:20:48.685 --> 0:20:53.125 was something not quite right then. And I questioned him 0:20:53.205 --> 0:20:56.005 about it, and he said to me, he said, I 0:20:56.045 --> 0:20:59.325 don't know who to trust anymore. He said, I want 0:20:59.325 --> 0:21:01.205 to come home now. He said, I want to come home, 0:21:01.245 --> 0:21:03.605 and I want to come home now, and so he 0:21:03.765 --> 0:21:06.485 just I think he was in a country that had 0:21:06.565 --> 0:21:12.365 shaken him with the reality of what was going on 0:21:12.405 --> 0:21:14.885 and how people lived in how poor people were and 0:21:15.005 --> 0:21:18.605 all of that, and I think his mind started to 0:21:18.645 --> 0:21:22.685 get a bit out of control, and I think he 0:21:22.805 --> 0:21:26.965 knew it. Ryan's reaction to India makes total sense. One 0:21:27.005 --> 0:21:30.245 person I interviewed described India as an assault to the senses. 0:21:30.805 --> 0:21:34.525 It doesn't ease travelers in Kearny has additional thoughts on 0:21:34.605 --> 0:21:38.325 the culture shock people experience in India. It's a very 0:21:38.445 --> 0:21:42.765 chaotic environment. The streets are our madness, the laws all 0:21:42.805 --> 0:21:45.725 seem different. The way people interact with each other's just 0:21:45.845 --> 0:21:47.965 very can be very, very overwhelming. So you go through 0:21:48.005 --> 0:21:51.525 culture shock when you're there, and when so you're already destabilized. 0:21:51.765 --> 0:21:53.645 Let's say you find an ashram and all of a sudden, 0:21:53.645 --> 0:21:57.405 it's like little waste piece. You go from sort of 0:21:57.445 --> 0:22:00.685 like very fight or flight to very very rest and 0:22:00.765 --> 0:22:07.085 digest and sort of like calm. Ryan was at the 0:22:07.165 --> 0:22:10.125 Vadna Khidden us room when he called us mom the 0:22:10.245 --> 0:22:13.405 night before he disappeared. Here's Danne discussing the rest of 0:22:13.445 --> 0:22:16.565 a phone call with Ryan. We talked about, you know, 0:22:16.685 --> 0:22:18.285 him having a chat with John, and he'd had the 0:22:18.285 --> 0:22:21.205 discussion with John and he was actually, you know, going 0:22:21.245 --> 0:22:24.405 to plan to sort of head home. And so then 0:22:24.925 --> 0:22:27.045 I had a bit of a sleepless night that night, 0:22:27.205 --> 0:22:31.205 not really, there was something unsettling going on then. And 0:22:31.285 --> 0:22:34.965 so then when John rang and he just said, look, 0:22:35.125 --> 0:22:39.965 he said, Ryan's gone missing. He said, We've gone everywhere today. 0:22:40.045 --> 0:22:42.925 They'd hired motorbikes and some other people that he'd met, 0:22:42.965 --> 0:22:44.805 and they'd gone to a lot of the places where 0:22:44.805 --> 0:22:47.725 they'd they'd been together and whatever. And I've got I 0:22:47.765 --> 0:22:50.445 think to about four or four thirty in the afternoon there, 0:22:50.485 --> 0:22:53.565 and John started to really worry then, and he said, look, 0:22:53.645 --> 0:22:57.245 he said, we've been looking for him. He said, we 0:22:57.285 --> 0:22:59.165 can't find him anywhere. He said, should I go to 0:22:59.205 --> 0:23:02.085 the police. And I just said, straight away, absolutely, I said, 0:23:02.405 --> 0:23:07.925 I knew. I just knew that something was drastically wrong. 0:23:09.485 --> 0:23:12.485 Hours after Ryan spoke to his mom, as soon as 0:23:12.525 --> 0:23:16.845 the ashram gates were opened, he fled without his wallet, phone, 0:23:16.965 --> 0:23:21.205 a shirt. He wasn't even wearing shoes. He didn't tell John. 0:23:21.245 --> 0:23:24.005 He didn't hurt anyone at the ashram. He just left. 0:23:24.805 --> 0:23:27.565 But it's not Ryan's disappearance that made him the first 0:23:27.605 --> 0:23:31.485 poster child of India syndrome. It's what he left behind. 0:23:34.365 --> 0:23:37.485 Diana is paging through Ryan's diary of intricate pen drawings 0:23:37.485 --> 0:23:43.685 and notes. Yeah, he's some amazing stuff in here. And 0:23:44.045 --> 0:23:48.605 that one is my brain map without chrono, whatever that means. 0:23:50.445 --> 0:23:54.605 Below this drawing our rivets, squiggles and circles making up 0:23:54.645 --> 0:23:57.725 what looks like a brain inside the brain are lines 0:23:57.805 --> 0:24:03.445 like flow or follow, not far enough and will you 0:24:03.525 --> 0:24:10.285 make it? But this Ryan's absolute last entry in his 0:24:10.565 --> 0:24:15.685 diary says as what labeled Ryan a victim of India syndrome. 0:24:15.885 --> 0:24:20.725 If I'm gone, don't worry, I'm not dead. I'm just 0:24:20.965 --> 0:24:24.365 freeing minds. And to do that I had to free 0:24:24.485 --> 0:24:30.325 my own. That entry defined Ryan as a spiritual seeker, 0:24:30.885 --> 0:24:33.965 and you can see why. It's a pretty cryptic existential 0:24:34.005 --> 0:24:37.925 message to leave behind. But it leads me to ask 0:24:38.965 --> 0:24:42.405 why did the entry automatically label Ryan a seeker on 0:24:42.525 --> 0:24:45.765 some sort of spiritual quest? I mean, if Ryan had 0:24:45.765 --> 0:24:48.765 been traveling through Italy at the time of his disappearance 0:24:48.805 --> 0:24:51.645 in this journal entry was found, what does words have 0:24:51.725 --> 0:24:56.045 the same impact, in other words, as the mystique of 0:24:56.125 --> 0:25:00.645 India and the mysterious phenomenon India Syndrome that's pinned to it, 0:25:01.325 --> 0:25:22.405 overshadowing the truth of what happened to Ryan. Here's the thing. 0:25:23.365 --> 0:25:27.285 India syndrome is a theory. It's just that a theory. 0:25:27.845 --> 0:25:30.845 Even Carney said it was not an officially recognized disease, 0:25:31.485 --> 0:25:34.005 though he does believe, along with many others I interviewed 0:25:34.045 --> 0:25:37.125 for the podcasts, that it's a real phenomenon and a 0:25:37.245 --> 0:25:41.845 dangerous one. He also believes it affected Ryan Chambers, and 0:25:41.965 --> 0:25:47.205 like other media outlets, penned Ryan a spiritual seeker. Obviously, 0:25:47.365 --> 0:25:50.605 Ryan's last diary entry about freeing minds but first having 0:25:50.645 --> 0:25:54.805 to free his own was cryptic, but unfortunately, because his 0:25:54.925 --> 0:25:59.285 message was found in Ratia Cash, a spiritual hotspot in India, 0:25:59.485 --> 0:26:02.325 it allowed authorities to write him off as someone who 0:26:02.405 --> 0:26:05.685 chose to vanish, and it gave the media free rain 0:26:05.765 --> 0:26:09.965 to identify him as a victim of India syndrome, which 0:26:10.005 --> 0:26:14.845 gave Ryan's tragic disappearance a closure his family still doesn't have. 0:26:17.165 --> 0:26:20.205 But all of this points to a bigger issue surrounding 0:26:20.245 --> 0:26:26.165 India Syndrome, which is Westerners creating a narrative around the unknown, 0:26:27.085 --> 0:26:31.605 in this case India. But as someone born and raised 0:26:31.605 --> 0:26:33.565 in India, I want to get a key to his 0:26:33.685 --> 0:26:37.645 thoughts on India Syndrome. I had not heard about India 0:26:37.685 --> 0:26:41.165 syndrome before you mentioned it, before I started working on 0:26:41.205 --> 0:26:45.725 the podcast. I believe human beings love to label in 0:26:45.805 --> 0:26:49.565