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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greasee.

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Speaker 2: A torpedo into the defense of Calet mom Lurie Valo.

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Speaker 2: Lauri Valo now on trial for multiple murders and conspiracy

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Speaker 2: to commit murder, specifically the murders of her two children,

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Speaker 2: seven year old JJ and teen girl Tally. But there's more.

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Speaker 2: There's husband Charles Valo. There is the wife, Timmy Dabell,

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Speaker 2: who died in her sleep. So Caltmom Laurie Vallo could

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Speaker 2: then steal her husband and marry him at a.

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Speaker 1: Beachside Hawaii wedding.

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Speaker 2: But the torpedo I'm talking about is none other than

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Speaker 2: the one she gave birth to. That's right, her own

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Speaker 2: son Colby delivering damning evidence against his own mother.

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Speaker 1: I means he grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at pocination and

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Speaker 2: serious exem one eleven. Not only did his testimony, his

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Speaker 2: tearful testimony against his own mother, you could tell each

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Speaker 2: word was being pulled out with appliers who wants to

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Speaker 2: hurt their own mother.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 3: Canny understand you didn't saying wow, that's her reaction when

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Speaker 3: her son Colby says, you murdered my brother and sister.

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Speaker 1: And she's like, well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's a real backhand way of not giving

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Speaker 2: an apology when somebody says you did so and so

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Speaker 2: and you go, well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

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Speaker 2: In case you're wondering where that call originated, that is

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Speaker 2: a jail house call from between Colt Mom Lourie Bellow's

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Speaker 2: son Colby Ryan, and Colt Mom Laurie Valo.

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Speaker 1: All of those calls are recorded. You know, I've got

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Speaker 1: an all.

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Speaker 2: Star panel to make sense of what we're hearing right

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Speaker 2: now and what is literally pouring from the witness stand

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Speaker 2: against Colt Mom Laurie Valo in the state's case. But

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Speaker 2: first of Karen Start, we're now psychologist joining us that

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Speaker 2: from on Manhattan. You can find her at Karenstart dot com.

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Speaker 2: Karen to see Karen what is that. I'm sure you

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Speaker 2: have a clinical word for it when you say, Nancy,

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Speaker 2: you crashed my car and I'm really angry about it.

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Speaker 2: And I say, well, Karen Start, I'm sorry you feel

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Speaker 2: that way. It's taking no responsibility at all.

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Speaker 4: It's a great dyflection, Nancy. It's a great way to

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Speaker 4: not say that you've done anything wrong. But it's like

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Speaker 4: a semi apology because I'm sorry it's the thing that

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Speaker 4: you're looking for. But I'm not sorry that I killed them.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry that that's how you feel.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like putting the blame on the other person.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry you feel that way.

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Speaker 4: But her voice also, if you listen to the way

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Speaker 4: that she sounds, she's very flat. It's not like, how

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Speaker 4: can you accuse me of such a thing. She's just like, gee,

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry that you feel that way.

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Speaker 2: This is her son, you know what, Karen start. Let

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Speaker 2: me give you a good example. Yes day, on the

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Speaker 2: way to church, we got it in our hands.

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Speaker 1: We were going to the early service.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what possessed us to think we could

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Speaker 2: actually get there on time anyway, So of course I

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Speaker 2: get in the car and I have one purple tennis

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Speaker 2: shoe and one white tennis shee. So I hold them

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Speaker 2: up and I go come back, come back, and my

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Speaker 2: husband said, don't yell. For the next twenty minutes, I

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Speaker 2: talked about that I didn't yell, that I was wrongly

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Speaker 2: accused of raising my voice, and just to make it works,

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Speaker 2: this is all the way to church.

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Speaker 1: So where you're supposed to learn to be a better person.

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Speaker 2: I was incensed, and then I had to pull the

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Speaker 2: twins and basically force them to say I didn't yell

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Speaker 2: that it was all in David's imagination. Long story short,

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Speaker 2: I was more worried about that and the purple shoe

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Speaker 2: and the white shoe than she is about two dead children.

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Speaker 4: And that's exactly what we're talking about. That she has

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Speaker 4: an aspect that's flat, the way that she coming across

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Speaker 4: like a zombie, the very thing that she's accusing everybody

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Speaker 4: else of, like, oh gee, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: So sorry you feel that way, Okay, joining me. Also

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Speaker 2: in addition to Karen Stark psychologist is Robin Drake, behavior expert,

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Speaker 2: former FBI Special Agent, chief of FBI counter Intelligence.

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Speaker 1: Behavioral Analysis Program.

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Speaker 2: My Goodness, author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI

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Speaker 2: agent's manual for behavior Prediction.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you got to shorten that title number one, Robert.

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Speaker 2: Robert, I think you're projecting here because it makes me

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Speaker 2: so angry when I go you did so and so

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Speaker 2: and the.

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Speaker 1: Person says, well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

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Speaker 5: And you know Nancy is building apollo. Paren was saying

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Speaker 5: it looks like her entire lack of effect with anything

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Speaker 5: is she feels completely safe in her entire environment. You know,

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Speaker 5: she has surrounded herself by a lot of like thinkers,

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Speaker 5: and so when you are a fish in a pond,

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Speaker 5: you don't even know there's a universe outside that pond

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Speaker 5: that's questioning your every move, and so you feel very

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Speaker 5: safe in that pond. And it's probably also why she's

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Speaker 5: taken so many notes in the court room. So she's

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Speaker 5: a practiced liar that has been doing this their entire life.

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Speaker 5: I think she feels extremely safe. Plus you throw that

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Speaker 5: lack of empathy in there, and that you're seeing a

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Speaker 5: recipe for exactly that same behavior.

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Speaker 2: I like everything you and Karen Stark just said. Let's

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Speaker 2: bring in Tara Malik. Tara Malick Boise, Idaho attorney, co

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Speaker 2: founder Smith and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: Tara, thank you for being with us. Tara.

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Speaker 2: Let's now translate what we're hearing into criminal behavior and

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Speaker 2: something that Robin Drake said about she's a fish and

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Speaker 2: a small pond, and everybody swimming around her is supporting

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Speaker 2: her and agreeing with her and propping her up to

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Speaker 2: be some and this is these are their words, not mine,

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Speaker 2: Goddess to lead one hundred and forty thousand selected going

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Speaker 2: to heaven with Christ. But she never has. So many

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Speaker 2: criminals are like minded. She never thinks, Wow, this is murder.

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Speaker 2: I could get the death penalty for this. That never

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Speaker 2: dawns on her.

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Speaker 6: No, it definitely doesn't seem to. I mean, she she

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Speaker 6: seems really confident in these lives that she's telling. And

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Speaker 6: you know, that call and her aspect or her lack

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Speaker 6: of asfect and that call with her son is really telling.

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Speaker 6: I mean, she just is so I think safe is

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Speaker 6: a great word to use. She feels so safe and

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Speaker 6: you know, throws it back on her son. I'm sorry

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Speaker 6: that you feel like that, you know, I'm sorry you

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Speaker 6: feel that way as a you know, as a prosecutor.

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Speaker 6: If you're putting on evidence like that, it certainly doesn't

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Speaker 6: is not going to play well with that jury. They're

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Speaker 6: not going to look at that flat aspect and go

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Speaker 6: sounds like one who's innocent. To the contrary, they're going

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Speaker 6: to go that's a very strange and out of the

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Speaker 6: norm way to react when someone accuses you your own

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Speaker 6: son of murdering your other kids like.

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Speaker 2: This son of hers, Colby. We always hear about JJ

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Speaker 2: and Tyley. We don't hear a lot about Colby, Like

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Speaker 2: he hasn't been through enough.

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Speaker 1: He has lost his father. Remember his father was Joseph.

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Speaker 2: Ryan, who by the time Ryan's body was found, he's

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Speaker 2: so decomposed to really get a good cod cause of death.

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Speaker 2: But with Coultmom lurking around, I wouldn't put that past

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Speaker 2: her either. With you, Jackie, I mean no way. So

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Speaker 2: his father's dead, his mother, his bio mom, is in jail,

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Speaker 2: and now his two siblings are dead, murdered JJ entirely.

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Speaker 2: Now we're talking about her flat affect and a lot

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Speaker 2: of people.

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Speaker 1: Believe it or not. Did anybody ever watch Sopranos?

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Speaker 2: They know they're being tapped, but they keep talking, right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: everybody in the jail knows the calls are being recorded,

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Speaker 2: but they may think rightly that the prosecutor may not

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Speaker 2: do his or her homework and listen to those calls wrong.

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Speaker 1: Listen to this, I agree.

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Speaker 7: I trusted every chance I feel my own.

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Speaker 8: Human I push past all.

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Speaker 9: Everything to try to get to you.

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Speaker 10: To help my own mother. You lied to me, specifically

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Speaker 10: me more times than might.

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Speaker 11: Be to know.

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Speaker 10: Then it's gone and you knew. And my phone's being

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Speaker 10: texted by my little sister who's not even life might

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Speaker 10: brother who's sweet.

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Speaker 3: Ever.

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Speaker 2: This is Colby Ryan Coltman, Laurie Valo's son, confronting her

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Speaker 2: in a jailhouse call that was recorded. I will never

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Speaker 2: forget the calls from taught mom Casey Anthony, and they

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Speaker 2: were video recorded between her and her parents, and boy,

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Speaker 2: we learned a lot about her demeanor, the way that

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Speaker 2: she would curse at them and yell at them every

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Speaker 2: time they tried to ask about where's Kelly. But we're

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Speaker 2: seeing the same thing right here. The more that Colby

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Speaker 2: Ryan tries to confront cult Maum Laurie Valo about JJ

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Speaker 2: and Tyley, the more she becomes calm and flat and

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Speaker 2: putting it back on him. Emily Ashcraft is with us

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Speaker 2: reporter KSL dot com in Utah. You can find her

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Speaker 2: on Twitter at Emily Janine three. Emily really interesting that

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Speaker 2: he Coby Ryan. He throws in his mom's face and

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Speaker 2: she deserves it too. That even after he keeps saying

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Speaker 2: Tyley's gone, that means she's dead, Even after Tylie has

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Speaker 2: been murdered and dismembered, rendered like an animal in a slaughterhouse.

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Speaker 2: He's still getting texts from Tilly's phone that had to

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Speaker 2: be from calt mom Laurie Valo, Emily Ashcraft.

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Speaker 12: Yeah.

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Speaker 13: Well, in some testimony at the trial was that they

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Speaker 13: knew that that those texts and some venmos were sent

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Speaker 13: from a hotel that out of state, that Lori Velue

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Speaker 13: Develle where she was, and so it is pretty clear

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Speaker 13: that she was the one that's been sending venmos or texts,

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Speaker 13: and yeah, he was. He seemed pretty angry that she

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Speaker 13: intentionally hid that from him.

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Speaker 2: So she knew clearly that her daughter was dead because

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Speaker 2: she was using her daughter's cell phone to pretend to

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Speaker 2: be Tyley and right her brother, Tylie's brother, Colby Ryan.

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Speaker 1: Let's listen to more, and you tell.

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Speaker 9: Me this is because will my whole fans, including fathers,

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Speaker 9: to who's dead after everything you try to tell me,

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Speaker 9: tell me right now said Jesus Christ, the Savior of

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Speaker 9: the world is on your son.

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Speaker 10: You tell me that that it's all conditioned your heart,

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Speaker 10: that Jesus Christ is on your side.

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Speaker 1: Please, guys.

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Speaker 2: There is a later moment her Colt mom, Laurie Valo,

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Speaker 2: actually laughs in her son's face as they're talking on

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Speaker 2: the phone.

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Speaker 14: Listen, you know what now, and we all stand everything.

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Speaker 14: She will people who his name pure blacking me. This

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Speaker 14: is funny, This is funny. This is funny. You're laughing like,

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Speaker 14: this is funny. I'm looking at that, look at me.

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Speaker 12: It's just.

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Speaker 3: Always you don't understand ahead, Yeah I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't have anything else to say.

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Speaker 2: So when she doesn't like the questions, she starts laughing

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Speaker 2: at her own son, who's struggling with the murder of

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Speaker 2: his little brother and sister, and then makes to hang up.

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Speaker 1: But there's more.

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Speaker 2: Watch herself that was there doing everything with.

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Speaker 8: One who did it all? You did it all.

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Speaker 10: Throw it in the garage.

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Speaker 15: Happened, pretty happened in your new husband's back telling me

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Speaker 15: that matters what happened.

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Speaker 2: Why does she keep saying you don't know what happened.

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Speaker 2: You don't know what happened. And then Colby Ryan really

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Speaker 2: boils it down and says, their dad, mom, and they're

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Speaker 2: buried in your new husband's backyard, So what else is

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Speaker 2: there to say? And I think right there, Robin Drake

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Speaker 2: and Karen Stark, we're really getting at the heart of

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Speaker 2: what I now believed to be called my Lori Valos

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Speaker 2: hatred for children. Did you hear her say, I was

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Speaker 2: the one that did it all these years. I was

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Speaker 2: the one that took care of Tiley in the hospital

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Speaker 2: for hundreds of days. I was the one stuck taking

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Speaker 2: care of JJ who has learning disabilities.

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Speaker 1: That was me all these years.

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Speaker 2: She is unburdening her self care and start she kill

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Speaker 2: them or arrange them to be killed so she wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have that burden anymore.

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Speaker 4: And tremendous rage and anger over that, Nancy, over being

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Speaker 4: a mother, of doing the things that a mother does,

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Speaker 4: that a parent does. And she It's so interesting because

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Speaker 4: most of the time she's kind of removed, like disassociated, like, oh,

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Speaker 4: you're talking about me killing my children. I'm you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm laughing. I'm not even present, And then all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden, all of this rage breaks through and you

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Speaker 4: get to hear her true feelings. Sick you don't know

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Speaker 4: what happens, And part of it is how much she

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Speaker 4: took care of them, but also how terrible they were,

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Speaker 4: evil and the awful things that they did, all of

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Speaker 4: these hints about why they needed to be eliminated.

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Speaker 12: It's just outrageous.

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Speaker 2: The jury is hearing these calls just like we are

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Speaker 2: right now. To Emily Ashcraft joining us from ks L

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Speaker 2: dot com, how is the jury reacting?

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Speaker 13: You know, I haven't seen a ton of reaction, but

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Speaker 13: you know they they do. They're more attentive than than

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Speaker 13: I've seen other juries. Like I think the story is

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Speaker 13: drawing them in.

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Speaker 1: Are they taking notes? And some of them are, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: listen to this.

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Speaker 7: My own mom, my siblings, and my whole family, my

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Speaker 7: dad are everything you and your jail because of it.

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Speaker 7: I have really bothered himself and ask him to help.

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Speaker 16: Me survive this. Do you stands earthquake caused? Do you

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Speaker 16: know how many people are hurt and broken out? And

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Speaker 16: you're telling you that there's a reason.

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Speaker 11: Why are you following? Had done a bat the whole mom?

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Speaker 11: Why would you follow any is not good? How does

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Speaker 11: she fall somewhere? Did she not leads you to?

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Speaker 1: I notice no response?

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Speaker 2: Coltmant Lloyd Valo goes silent and confronted with tough questions

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Speaker 2: she can't answer. Not only did the jury hear these calls?

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Speaker 2: H jailhouse calls between Coltman Laurie Valo and her son

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Speaker 2: Colby Ryan but this torpedo continues to tear asunder any

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Speaker 2: case the defense may have had at least at this juncture,

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Speaker 2: Colby Ryan gets on the stand and breaks down in tears.

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Speaker 8: Listen, it's six. Do you recognize that person?

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Speaker 17: Yes?

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Speaker 8: Who is that? That's my sister Tyler Brian.

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Speaker 18: Okay, what was your specific relation with Tyler Ryan?

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Speaker 8: She was my half sister. Okay, who's sure?

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Speaker 2: Ryan? Eight?

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Speaker 8: Seasoned for do you know that first?

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Speaker 17: Yes?

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Speaker 8: Who is that? My little brother JJ Fallo? Okay, what's

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Speaker 8: your specific relation with JJ Ballo? He was my adopted brother.

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 15: Two.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Jan Gorniac joining us today, renown medical examiner out

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Speaker 2: of Vegas, Board certified pathologist, Doctor Gorniac, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us. We know that and correct me if

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Speaker 2: I'm wrong, Emily Ashcraft. But we know that JJ was

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Speaker 2: seemingly hermetrically sealed. He was in plastic bags. He still

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Speaker 2: had on his little pajamas he was wearing the night

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Speaker 2: that he was taken out of Coltman Laurie Valo's apartment

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Speaker 2: by her brother Alex Cox. He still even has on

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Speaker 2: his little socks he was going to wear to bed.

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Speaker 2: He was wrapped in bags and sealed with duct tape. Tyley, however,

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Speaker 2: was a completely different matter. She had been dismembered, rendered

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Speaker 2: down to practically nothing. All that was left remaining of

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Speaker 2: this beautiful teen girl, so full of life and happiness,

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Speaker 2: was a melted bucket of human flesh and fat, singed

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Speaker 2: and charred. So what would that photo have looked like?

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Speaker 2: When Colby Ryan was on the stand, and you can

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Speaker 2: hear him when they say who is that? He starts

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Speaker 2: crying and there's a long pause and he says, my sister,

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Speaker 2: Tyler Ryan, What would those photos have look like to

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Speaker 2: this brother now on the stand testifying for the state

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Speaker 2: against called mom Laurie.

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Speaker 12: Valo, I can only imagine, Hugh. It just breaks my

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Speaker 12: heart to hear him. But I know that we see

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Speaker 12: that almost on a daily basis, so not that we're

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Speaker 12: immune to it, but we're immune to it. So I

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Speaker 12: can only imagine saying that's my sister, only because you know,

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Speaker 12: but there's no resemblance even of a body to say

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Speaker 12: that's my sister, or to look at his little brother

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Speaker 12: partially decomposed, you know, whether there's the plastic bag still

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Speaker 12: wrapped around him. I just can't I mean, you know,

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Speaker 12: when you're you're you know, forensic pathologists or police officers,

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Speaker 12: ems personnel. I don't even want to tell you what

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Speaker 12: these eyes have seen, you know. And so to just

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Speaker 12: imagine that this young man had to see his brother

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Speaker 12: and sister in that shape is just heartbreaking.

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Speaker 2: Plastic bags and duct tape would not have stopped the

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Speaker 2: decomposition process, would they know?

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Speaker 12: It would not have. And also you know, it might

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Speaker 12: have slowed it down a little bit. But you know,

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Speaker 12: the elements, whether you're buried, is it hot, you know,

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Speaker 12: so things can make it speed up or slow down.

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Speaker 12: But being wrapped in plastic and still have clothes on,

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Speaker 12: that's going to keep your body warm. So most likely

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Speaker 12: the body is going to decompose even faster.

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Speaker 1: Emily Ascraft, how much time passed between.

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Speaker 2: The murders of Tyleing and JJ and the discovery of

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Speaker 2: their bodies on Chad Davill's property.

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Speaker 13: Now, they were each likely murdered in September, and they

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Speaker 13: weren't found until the spring. I can't remember which month

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Speaker 13: it was, but it was probably over six months.

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Speaker 2: I recall it being March or April, so we've got

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Speaker 2: seven to eight months, Doctor Jene gorniac of decomposure.

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Speaker 1: What would Colby Ryan have seen in.

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Speaker 2: Those states exhibit photos of the dead bodies?

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Speaker 12: Who would have seen bodies that were discolored, you know,

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Speaker 12: green brown, Sometimes they look leathery. Their skin is so

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Speaker 12: thick and like looks like leather. Probably some skeletonization of

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Speaker 12: the body, so really no facial features that he can identify,

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Speaker 12: just you know, just the resemblance of a body, but

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Speaker 12: not really a body. You know, it's a body, but

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Speaker 12: you can't wrap your head around it being it's a body.

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Speaker 12: So he would have seen, you know, after all those months,

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Speaker 12: most likely more of a skeletonized body than actually a

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Speaker 12: full body.

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Speaker 1: And that is JJ.

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Speaker 2: To Tara Malick, Idaho lawyer and former state and federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: At least there was a body left of JJ. Not

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Speaker 2: so fertilely explain.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty horrific the facts here,

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Speaker 6: and I think, you know, it's obviously the fact that

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Speaker 6: these two kids passed away at all at the hands

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Speaker 6: of someone else is a terrible thing. But you know,

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Speaker 6: just the manner in which Tylee was treated by these folks,

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Speaker 6: and you know the fact that there's almost nothing left

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Speaker 6: of her is just astounding, and I think, you know, again,

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Speaker 6: this jury is going to have to see these photographs.

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Speaker 6: I think it's shocking.

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Speaker 12: You know.

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Speaker 6: The state that JJ was in is equally shocking. I mean,

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Speaker 6: this is a very small child, this is a little boy.

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Speaker 6: They're seeing, you know, pictures of him happy and smiling

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Speaker 6: in court and then in stark contrast, you know, he's

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Speaker 6: got tape over his face and he's wrapped in plastic.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's just terrible.

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Speaker 2: And what to you, Emily Ashcraft had happened to Tiley?

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Speaker 2: What were the state photos like of Tili's remains.

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Speaker 13: I know that those remains were just so burned they

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Speaker 13: there was no way to do an autopsy, and so

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Speaker 13: there's so few clues to the way that they that

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Speaker 13: she died too.

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Speaker 1: Docter J.

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Speaker 2: Gorniac Tyler's body was a bucket of flesh. How can

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Speaker 2: you identify a body when there's just a bucket of

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Speaker 2: flesh left?

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Speaker 1: How can you say that's tiling?

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Speaker 12: Well, you're going to have to do DNA first, Like

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Speaker 12: you said, first of all, you have to make sure

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Speaker 12: you know it's human, and then then go DNA or

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Speaker 12: if there was any teeth left at all, because some

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Speaker 12: bones couldn't survive or the burning in the decomposition process.

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Speaker 12: So depending on that, you would have to definitely go

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Speaker 12: to DNA. Right, Obviously you can't do fingerprints or anything

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Speaker 12: like that. And back to your last guests talking about

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Speaker 12: how do you determine cause of death? We don't. We

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Speaker 12: have to look at the circumstances. So in a case

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Speaker 12: like this, some people might call it undetermined, but the

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Speaker 12: manner is homicide just based on the circumstances, or they

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Speaker 12: might use the term homicidal violence of undetermined means. So

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Speaker 12: you know, something happened that we just can't tell because

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Speaker 12: there's not enough but the circumstances points to a homicide

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Speaker 12: even without a cause of death.

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Speaker 2: Right right, guys, we're hearing a lot about the children

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Speaker 2: JJ and Tylee. We've heard a fair bit about the

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Speaker 2: murder of the prophet Chad day Bill's wife, Tammy day Bill.

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Speaker 1: We have not heard much about the.

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Speaker 2: Murder of Charles Valo, that Jjay's dad. Now we're hearing

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Speaker 2: more about the murder of Charles Valo in court. Take

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Speaker 2: a listen to this, and had you made any observations

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Speaker 2: about miss Valo's presence or behavior prior to the death notification.

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Speaker 19: Yes, at the time that I initially saw her, and

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Speaker 19: while I was in front of the residence, she was

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Speaker 19: standing with her daughter near what we later found out

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Speaker 19: was Charles's rental car, in proximity with a patrol officer.

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Speaker 8: She appeared.

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Speaker 19: Calm, very non emotion Uh, was kind of hanging out

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Speaker 19: and seemed to be just having kind of some general conversation,

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Speaker 19: not really upset, just kind of At one point.

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Speaker 8: She was laughing. Do you recall the day that Charles

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Speaker 8: Vallo asked Charles Valow died?

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Speaker 17: Yes?

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Speaker 18: Okay, did you happen to have a conversation with Lorie

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Speaker 18: Valo about how he died?

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Speaker 8: Yes? Where were you when you had that conversation? How

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Speaker 8: does that work? Okay? What time of day was it?

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Speaker 17: Around two or three pm? She called me?

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Speaker 8: Okay, what did she tell you about Charles Vallow's death?

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Speaker 17: She told me that he had died from a heart attack.

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Speaker 17: From a heart attack, heart attack.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So even at the beginning, when Charles Valo was shot

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Speaker 2: dead by calt Mama Laurie Valo and her brother Alex Cox,

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Speaker 2: she immediately starts spinning it out, telling son Colby, this

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Speaker 2: is the testimony on the stand the Valo died from

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Speaker 2: a heart attack.

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Speaker 1: No, he was shot dead.

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Speaker 2: I want to go out to Robin Drake, behavior expert,

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Speaker 2: former FBI special agent, Robin, thank you for being with us,

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Speaker 2: first of all.

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Speaker 1: And the sound you heard, and that was the.

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Speaker 2: Prosecuting attorney questioning Detective Sandra Inclan. She the detective says

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Speaker 2: that she sees call Mam Laurie Valo standing there on

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Speaker 2: the scene of Charles Valo's shooting death, laughing the significance.

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Speaker 2: We also hear her laughing at her son Colby on

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Speaker 2: those jail house calls exploit what do you make of it?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, what I'm seeing is her sense of self is

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00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 5: so inflated it's crazy, and she seems to have this

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Speaker 5: non behavior that she deflects really rapidly with that laugh.

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Speaker 5: And then but her ability to recent her herself in

438
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 5: regroup to re engage her lives is profound. And so

439
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 5: that's exactly what I see her doing here, is that

440
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 5: she recenters, and she deflects and re victimizes herself and

441
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 5: she literally I think part of this lack of effect

442
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 5: from her is the fact that she treats this as

443
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 5: a business, because she literally anyone in her life that's

444
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 5: had a policy, and life insurance policy seems to disappear

445
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 5: until it comes to her. I mean, I think this

446
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 5: is her business, and this is exactly what she's been

447
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 5: doing her entire life.

448
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: Life insurance policies and government benefits because from really Ryan

449
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: was getting I guess you would call it social security

450
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: because her father, Joseph Ryan, had died.

451
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: Also Colby Ryan's dad.

452
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: And JJ was getting government benefits because he was disabled,

453
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: he was learning disabled, and I believe that he's going

454
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: to be on this spectrum that he has some degree

455
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: of autism. So both of them are still getting government

456
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: support after their death.

457
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: She kept getting the checks.

458
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, And what's really profound here is Colby. I want

459
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 5: to know who raised him because she obviously did not

460
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 5: have a huge impact on him, because he is dropping

461
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 5: truth bombs left and right, and she's having to regroup

462
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 5: and deflect and re engage. It's pretty remarkable.

463
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace, Karen starts psychologists joining us

464
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: out of Manhattan. Karen, in addition to her laughing inappropriately,

465
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: and I don't know if inappropriately is too mild of

466
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: a word, because it's really twisting the knife once it's

467
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: stuck in the back because when Colby is bearing her

468
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: soul to his mother on the phone in this jeelhouse

469
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: phone call, she starts laughing at him, and her other

470
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: children are murdered and she's laughing. And then on the saye,

471
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: when Charles Valo, one of her husbands, is shot dead

472
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: by her and her brother Alex Cox, she's laughing right

473
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: in front of the detectives. So there's the not just inappropriate,

474
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: but cruel laughing. But then you also have Colby describing

475
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 2: more of her behavior, how there was a lying immediately

476
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: after the shooting. She already had a lie ready to

477
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: tell Colby that Valo died of a heart attack.

478
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 4: Nancy, she's a patholgical liar. She lies about everything, and

479
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 4: she's so good at it, which is what makes it

480
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 4: be pathological. I mean sometimes she doesn't even have to lie,

481
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: and she lies mothertheless, and she doesn't have any feeling.

482
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 4: And I can't think of a better example of somebody

483
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 4: who doesn't care. She really doesn't care. She's capable of

484
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 4: totally removing herself from what anyone is saying, and people

485
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 4: aren't real to her, they're not She doesn't have connections

486
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 4: the way we would. She doesn't love the way you

487
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 4: love your family. She doesn't care, and she certainly feels

488
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 4: like she's above it all. She knows something that you

489
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 4: don't know. She knows that it's all going to be

490
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 4: okay for her.

491
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: She has a higher purpose.

492
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 4: Whatever she's telling herself, she actually believes.

493
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: And when Colby took the stand the irony, she mouthed

494
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: the words, oh my baby.

495
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: Yep, when he took the stand. And you know what,

496
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: Robin Drie, You're right, your intuition is correct. Call him on.

497
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: Laurie Valo did not raise Colby. His father raised him.

498
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: Colby Ryan's father, Joseph Ryan, raised him. And you know

499
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: what else I find interesting, Tara Malick is with us

500
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: a high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction Idaho.

501
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: Is that Ryan?

502
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: Remember she told everybody that Joseph Ryan, her husband, died

503
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: of a heart attack. Now she's telling people that Charles

504
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: Valla that's her go too, Oh he died of a

505
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: heart attack.

506
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's so strange. I mean, it's the same story.

507
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 6: It's obviously untrue. In fact, you know, during the time

508
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 6: she was telling the lies, people were getting different stories.

509
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 6: Law enforcement was getting different stories.

510
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: She can't.

511
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 6: She either can't keep it straight or she doesn't care.

512
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 6: Quite frankly, but all of those lies go directly to

513
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 6: her credibility. Why would you lie to law enforcement? Why

514
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 6: would you lie to people in the community about, you know,

515
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 6: the reason that your ex husband or husband died and

516
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 6: then passed away. It doesn't make any sense.

517
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 4: I mean, that is what makes her a psychopath. You're

518
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 4: seeing a perfect example of somebody who doesn't care, who's

519
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 4: so devious and capable of lying, of pulling the wool

520
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 4: over everyone's eyes, of keeping checks that she shouldn't be keeping.

521
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 4: This is classic psychopathics behavior.

522
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: Emily Ashcraft joining us from KSL dot com. Were you

523
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: in the courtroom when Colby took the stand?

524
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 13: I was in the overflow courtroom.

525
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: So then yes, And what did you see, if any,

526
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 2: regarding any reaction in the courtroom, Because we're told that

527
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 2: gasps broke out in the courtroom when Colby Ryan took

528
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: the stand and that called mom. Laurie Valo mouthed the words,

529
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: oh my baby. I mean, did she not expect him

530
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: to take the stand.

531
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 13: I'm sure she was aware, but I think she has

532
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 13: been more emotional during that testimony than the others. What

533
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 13: do you mean most of the time she's she's been

534
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 13: pretty focused but not very emotional.

535
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 10: But we have the.

536
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 13: Artist that is in the courtroom during she sketched during

537
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 13: his testimony some emotional looks on Laurie's face that we

538
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 13: haven't been seeing other days.

539
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting. Tara Mallik, high profile lawyer out

540
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: of Idaho. This witness, as emotional as he is, is

541
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: also technically a very important witness for the state because

542
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 2: without him, it would be more difficult to get these

543
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: phone calls in. You can't just say to the jury, Okay,

544
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: now I'm going to play some phone calls to you.

545
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: You've got to lay a foundation with one of the

546
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: people that are on the call or the FBI agent

547
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: that was making the tap. Somebody has to legitimize the

548
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: phone call to get through evidentiary hurdles. You can't just

549
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: go in and start playing whatever you want to without

550
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: laying a foundation, illegal foundation for it. But also he

551
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: Colby Ryan describes the text he was getting from Tyley

552
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 2: after she's dead, and we now know those texts were

553
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: coming from some hotel that called mom. Laurie Valo was

554
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: snugged up in So this is a very important significant

555
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: witness for the state in addition to the emotional as

556
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: I said, bomb torpedo he landed in the defense.

557
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the state has the burden of

558
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 6: introducing and getting evidence into the record, and they have

559
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 6: to follow certain rules in order to do that. And

560
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 6: you can't just say, and you know, here you go,

561
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 6: judge and jury, here's a phone call that we're going

562
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 6: to play, or here's a text message that we got.

563
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 6: They're going to have to go step by step, brick

564
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 6: by brick and build this house. And that means having

565
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 6: him come in and describe how he called her, when

566
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 6: he called her, why he called her, you know, identifying

567
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 6: the voices authenticating that this the full telephone conversation, or

568
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 6: you know, the portions that they're playing of the telephone calls,

569
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 6: that those are true and accurate. So he is critically important.

570
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 6: And those text messages, you know, when he thought he

571
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 6: was texting with his sister, not only are they just

572
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 6: heartbreaking and traumatic, you know, for the reason of his

573
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 6: human emotions after he finds out that it was mom

574
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 6: and not his sister, and his sister was dead at

575
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 6: the time, but also to show, you know, the length

576
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 6: that Laurie went to to really cover her tracks in

577
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 6: a way, and and the deception. And so the only

578
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 6: way to really get that evidence in h to show

579
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 6: the concern in the community, but also to show this

580
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 6: deception is to go to him and have him describe

581
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 6: what he did and what efforts he made to track

582
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 6: him down.

583
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, earlier you heard Robin Drake talk about motive, which

584
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: a state of course doesn't have to show. But take

585
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: a listen to our cuts three thirty and three thirty

586
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: one regarding the motive for murder?

587
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 18: Did you ever have a chance to speak with Lorie

588
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 18: Valo about Charles Valow's life insurance policy?

589
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 8: A few weeks after Charles was killed?

590
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 17: She just had mentioned that she wasn't receiving any of

591
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 17: the life insurance money from Charles.

592
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 18: Okay, Was it your understanding from your conversation that Lourie

593
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 18: Vallo believed she was the beneficiary of Charles's life insurance

594
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 18: policy until after he died. Yes, when Charles was alive,

595
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 18: did you ever have occasion to speak with Lorie Valo

596
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 18: about her and Charles's finances?

597
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 8: Yes? How often would that happen?

598
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 17: I would say maybe monthly, or twice a month, or

599
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 17: twice every other month.

600
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 18: Okay, what was the general nature of those conversations.

601
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 17: Mostly to tell me that they were quote unquote attam money.

602
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 2: I want if it ever done her, that maybe she

603
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: should get a job like everybody else. I guess not

604
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 2: when you think about it, that someone could actually murder

605
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: a little boy, seven year old JJ and his teen's

606
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: sister for under the misbelief that she was going to

607
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: get the life insurance policy from the dad and the

608
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: Social Security benefits for these two little children. It was

609
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: all about the money, Karen Stark.

610
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, which shows you, Nancy, that she knew exactly what

611
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 4: she was doing. This is not a case of insanity.

612
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 4: This is somebody who was very calculated, very clear about

613
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 4: I'm going to murder them. I'm going to make sure

614
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 4: that they're did so that I can collect this money.

615
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 12: Think about that.

616
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 4: It's about the money, not about any human caring or connection.

617
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, Nancy, you had said that you get a job

618
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 5: to her, this was her job. Her job was her

619
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 5: cult beliefs in the use paid the bills.

620
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: I wonder if this is thinking in to the jury's minds.

621
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: We wait as this trial unfolds.

622
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 8: Goodbye, friend, m